Canonically, there are black characters and even trans characters in Homeric myth. You know what doesn't exist in Homeric myth at all?Nordic/Germanic aka "White" characters.Yet nobody complains about Nolan raceswapping Odysseus. Curious.
>>221378269We wuz Greeks n shit nigga
Scythians were basically Slavs.
>>221378279Yes, that is what White people keep saying because they are ashamed of their own ancestors
>>221378309Das rite!
>>221378269>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I AM SILLY!!!!!!!!!!
>>221378322Doesn't apply here. Name one thing the chud in this comic says that real chuds aren't saying.
>>221378269>canonically
>>221378269Saar we are build aqua duck!Who is shitting in street now? Roman wus brown
>>221378269Canonically, you're a retard.
>>221378346LALALALALA YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT LALALALA
>>221378269For anyone wondering, the logical fallacy in this comic happens in the second panel. Ethiopians are supposed to be a "far off" culture, not around greek culture. It even says it in the texts he chose. Saying this justifies a black Helen is like saying Superman should be chinese because in a comic from the 60s he mentioned hong kong once. Also, if the greeks had to make the distinction that ethiopians were black then that means they themselfs were not black, since they didn't even make this distinction about any other civilization around them.
>>221378430>Ethiopians are supposed to be a "far off" culture, not around greek cultureThousands of Ethiopians fought at Troy. An entire part of the Epic Cycle is about their (black) king Memnon bringing them to Troy, killing Nestor's son, and fighting Achilles.
>>221378485They were white though, faggot
>>221378430
>chudcomic tranny using AI nowlmao, must have been tiring making new ones for every woke dogshit flop of the month
>>221378430>Ethiopians are supposed to be a "far off" cultureAs opposed to Hyperborians who supposedly built the temple at Delphi and didn't originate from Greece like Memnon.>>221378485Their ancestry is documented back generations. Memnon's father was from Troy, his ancestry came from Lolcus.The three kings of Libya, Aegyptus and Ethiopia when the regions were first named that were sons of a conqueror from Argos. "Ethiopia" referred to the Arabian peninsula in that original context.>>221378637Pure racist fantasy.
>>221378720Give me one Greek or even Roman source saying that Ethiopians were white.You can't. All sources that describe their appearance claim that they are BLACK.
>>221378269Δεν πας να γαμηθείς από τις αραπόπουτσες που φιλάς, λέω εγώ τώρα, κολομαλακηστηριγιδομουνόπανο του κερατά;
OP used to make these for rangz of power, guess he got demoralized and moved on kek
AI slop
>>221378759You're braindead and I didn't dispute that. Memnon was white. All sources agree on his ancestry. You can't even pretend to sincerely think about any subject.
>>221378720I love when someone educated takes the time to explain how the brown cucks are wrong
>>221378833>Memnon was whiteShow me one source which makes this claim. ONE.
Reminder, this faggot tried to pass this off as definitive proof that Memnon was black, and then hypocritically tried to argue that you can't use vases to prove a character's ethnic background.He sperged out when it was mentioned that Helen was described as "white armed" but then turns around and uses a line where Memnon was described as "bronze armed" as definitive proof of him being black.>>221378430What this retarded faggot doesn't understand is that "aethiopia" in Homer's time, was referring to some nebulous "far away land" that the greeks didn't really assign a specific area or ethnicity too. It wasn't until much later that the greeks would have known about the sub-sarahan portion of africa and "Aethiopia" began to encompass those areas much later.What's really funny however is that the direct quote he's using from the Odyssey where it talks about Poseidon returning from Aethiopia, is actually him returning from the Solymoi mountains in Anatolia, nowhere near sub-sarahan Africa. I guess he doesn't understand the real world geography of the lines he's quoting from.
>Don't you see, the magical negro trope even existed in Ancient Greece!
>>221378875He didn't explain anything though, nor is he 'educated' He just made claims without sources while I provided dozens for mine. The claims he makes are also wrong. The Danaus/Aegyptus material is a separate genealogy, not related to Memnon: in Apollodorus, Aegyptus (a person, not a country) is settled in Arabia, while Cepheus rules Ethiopia; that does not make “Ethiopia” mean Arabia, and it has nothing to do with Memnon. Greek writers never used Ethiopia as a synonym for Arabia, nor ever claimed it to be located there. Every physical description of Memnon from antiquity describes him as BLACK.Now watch the chuddie repeatedly weaseling out of providing a source.
>>221378882>hypocritically tried to argue that you can't use vases to prove a character's ethnic backgroundAddressed and refuted here:>>221378269>t "aethiopia" in Homer's time, was referring to some nebulous "far away land" that the greeks didn't really assign a specific area or ethnicity too.Addressed and refuted here:>>221378269How come you have to ignore all the direct quotes I provide and have zero sources of your own?
>>221378876Son of Tithonus, a Trojan, not an Aethiopian. He was taken by the goddess Eos to the end of the world where she gave birth to "bronze armed" Memnon. Later Greeks thought he was Amenhotep I. We have three DNA samples from his dynasty and they were all r1b.https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/homeric-hymn-to-aphrodite-sb/
>>221378876Snorri Sturluson (the guy who wrote the Prose Edda which most of our knowledge of Norse mythology comes from) claimed that Thor was a son of Memnon in his euhemeristic take on the norse gods. Now, considering that Snorri would have had access to various sources that are now lost to us, this makes it painfully obvious that Memnon wasn't ubiquitously seen as black in the ancient world even as far as the 13th century.This retard keeps trying to make it seem as if being black was an inherent aspect of Memnon's character rather than just some shit that got retroactively added to him when the meaning of the word "aethiopia" changed.Otherwise, it would be fucking absurd for a 13th century icelandic scholar to claim that a NORDIC-SCANDINAVIAN figure was actually the son of a black guy.>>221378938kek, that Andromeda thing really has you dead to rights. You used a vase of what "might" possibly be Memnon as if to imply that the greeks would have visually distinguished themselves from black people but then cry that the color they're depicted with doesn't signify their ethnicity. And andromeda doesn't even have any other features that's even close to resembling that initial vase you posted, she looks virtually the same as how any other greek woman would have been drawn.Alright faggot, explain the real world geography of the Odyssey quotes you used and why those descriptions point exactly to sub-saran africa.
>>221379109>Later Greeks thought he was Amenhotep I. We have three DNA samples from his dynasty and they were all r1b.>https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/homeric-hymn-to-aphrodite-sb/Wow this is the most pathetic reach yet
>>221379135>Snorri SturlusonSorry to inform you chuddie, but that is not an ancient greek source.
>>221379135This is incredible. Chuds, who CRY when I use ancient Roman sources on Greek Mythology, in all seriousness appeal to 13th century icelandic sources.You are getting more desperate with each post, please keep going. I need to see what other copes you will dream up.
>>221379145>Wow this is the most pathetic reach yetThere is literally nothing even slightly suggesting he was black. The poem describes him as a "bronze armed" son of Trojan originally from Lolcus which is not black.He was in fact a bronze age king of Egypt so he must be one of the pharaohs documented by the Egyptians. The Nubian pharaohs ruled from 747 to 656 BC, long after the events of the Illiad.
I refuse to read any AI slop image posts, because brown hands prompted them. If you want my attention you're going to have to at least pretend to be white.
>>221379225bawk bawk bawk
>>221378269>canonicallyShut up retard
>>221378269>describe "going to edge of the world as we know it" taken literallywhen my dad says "where did you go? timbuktu?" when I'm gone from the house for a while, does he also mean I am black?
>>221378269nigger
>>221379320No but when he says "you have black skin" or "you are the blackest person in the world", as several of the sources I provided in this post say about the Ethiopians, he means that you are in fact black.
>>221379340Yes, Seneca literally says "Memnon niger"
>>221378269Mycenaean Greeks are indo-europeans, how are they not white? how would you define white? do you think italians are not white either? its almost like race is poorly defined and doesnt really exist.>>221378306Scythians are an Iranian ethnic group they probably weren't much like slavs but modern slavs are their closest relatives in that they dissolved into the surrounding slavic and turkic populations.Ossetians are the closest relatives to Scythians and they are technically not slavic.Furthermore, "slavic" really refers to language and not genetics. Southern and Eastern slavs are not closely related.
>>221379203Some context on the amazing gibberish the chuddie is trying to express here.Roman visitors who knew the myth of Memnon identified one of Amenhotep III’s colossal statues at Thebes with Memnon. That is why it became known as the “Colossus of Memnon”: Greek and Latin inscriptions on the monument show that tourists treated it as a memorial to thus mythological Ethiopian king, not as an Egyptian royal record.Obviously this has nothing to do with Memnon actually being an Egyptian king. The statue was built for and depicts Amenhotep III; the “Memnon” label is a much much later Greco-Roman identification. The fact that this chud not only takes this at face value, but that he even goes on to then appeal to DNA records of members of Amenhotep's dynasty to prove that Memnon was not actually black, is definite prove that we are dealing with someone who has gone through the American education system here.
>>221378269>gendered artistic expressionThat explains the skin perhaps.It doesn't explain the hair.Why isn't she depicted as having White skin with an afro if she's actually black? Blacks don't have hair like that.
>>221379196Once again faggot>This retard keeps trying to make it seem as if being black was an inherent aspect of Memnon's character rather than just some shit that got retroactively added to him when the meaning of the word "aethiopia" changed.romans were known for constantly adding shit on to existing greek myths (Medusa being raped by Poseidon and being turned into a gorgon by Athena in Ovid's book which funny enough you used as a source here.)And I'm not sure if you know this, but the romans had their own mythology going on, their gods are technically different from the greek gods and their were even heroes and gods from the greek myths that they hated and went out of their way to slander. The romans were not on complete buddy buddy terms with the greeks and weren't writing all this shit down because they were courteous enough to document their myths.And in Snorri's case, he wasn't even doing his own take on the trojan myth, this was him basically going "Let's assume Thor was actually a real person at some point, now which Greek/Trojan hero could I possibly use to claim that Thor descended from?"And he picked Memnon of all fucking people. And if Memnon was ubiquitously understood to be black from his earliest conception in the early oral myths predating Homer, he wouldn't have picked the fucking black guy otherwise his scholar buddies or anyone reading his shit wouldn't have believed his claim.
What does Memnon being black have to do with casting blacks in other, non-aethiopian roles?
>>221379344Every scholar, Greek, Roman and medieval agrees that they attribute actual blacks to Aethipoia but most people referenced as Aethipoian are not. It's sometimes Persia, sometimes India, sometimes Egypt or Arabia (both of which had black Nubians) and rarely Nubia proper, the upper Nile where humans actually encountered the sub-saharan black population at the time.>he came to Troy accompanied by nobles, knights and mounted archers with black skin: ‘neither pitch nor ink was ever so black as they wereIt was a rare, exotic, shocking thing to see an actual black.>>221379443>takes this at face valueCan't even pretend to be sincere for a second. This is what the Greeks believed. He supposedly founded a city in Persia and ruled from there but also ruled the upper Nile. This is almost impossible without also controlling the lower Nile aka Egypt.
>>221379474>>221379474>Romans added their own shit onto myths and didn't care about accuracy to the Greek originals>But an icelandic man, 1300 years later, knew all about the authentic oral tradition of Greek mythology and would NEVER invent or add shit that could possibly be in conflict with it!! Are you even hearing yourself?>funny enough you used as a source hereMocking me again for using Roman sources on Greek myth while you literally appeal to 13th century Icelanic myth as the authority... for heaven's sake chud, get a grip. This is unusually shameful even by chud-standards.
>>221379607>being as dishonest and manipulative as possible12th century had a resurgence in scholarship about Troy using now lost pre-Roman sources. They had more information and more rigid scholarship than the Roman.
>>221378269Nobody cares about nolan movies anymore
>>221379643>They had more information and more rigid scholarship than the RomanAbsolutely insane claim to make. It is literally impossible to have more information on ancient Greek culture in the 12th century than in actual antiquity.
>>221379196>According to Herodotus: "the Aethiopians from the East are straight-haired, but those of Libya [Africa] have hair more thick and woolly than that of any other men." The Greek geographer Strabo noted in a similar vein that “As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in colour, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Aegyptians.”Their version of "black" is a swarthy berber of north africa, or south egyptians. They were not sub-saharan negros that modern people associate as blacks, as they had no way of crossing the great desert yet besides the nile, and everyone on the nile had egyptian upper class colonists ruling over them for centuries. The aethiopes were ruled by northern egyptians and their kings would have been very light coco at worst. The guy the chud is arguing woth would be a better example of the blackest black man of the ancient world. The wakanda dude standing with him would not even be considered a human by the greeks.
>>221379663Always as dishonest as possible. Romans vs 500 years after Rome when Europe started gathering original sources methodically on a massive scale and developed the seeds of the scientific method. No sources from actual antiquity even toy with the idea that Memnon was black, only Romans who were notoriously clueless with poor sources and no methodology.
>>221378269Ethiopians aren’t Bantus. This is like putting Japanese people in a story about Turkey cause they are both technically “Asian”
>>221379732Took you a while to get to this cope even though its normally the first one chuds reach for.Also its obviously false.Go on, chud, tell me this 5th century BC Greek cup depicts a swarthy Berber.
>>221379743>Always as dishonest as possibleYou are using 13th century Icelandic poetry as your prime source on ancient Greek myth.
>>221379804>You are using 13th century Icelandic poetry as your prime source on ancient Greek mythNobody is doing that including the guy who actually mentioned the 13th century respected historian referencing contemporary sources from the period of peak Iliad scholarship. You're so fucked in the head I think you actually physically can't read, you're so dishonest you actually believe your own lies which stops you from being able to read. Functionally illiterate from pure cope.
>>221379844>Nobody is doing thatHoly shit, how is it even possible to be this dishonest? Everyone can read the thread and see how you repeatedly claim that Snorri is the authority on what the ancient Greek's thought about Memnon.
>>221379844>13th century respected historianWow... this chud thinks Snorri was a historian...
yeah so why is helen black
>>221379788That’s not even real
>>221379135
>>221379788North africans did obtain some negro slaves from the south nile. But those were not kangs, just people who pulled the carts and washed the penises of egyptians. Its similar to how europeans in the middle ages sometimes depicted moors as sub-saharans. Europeans were simply encountering the slaves that served the berbers and semetic people who ruled north and east africa, who had massive slave empires long before europeans arrived.
>>221379857>see how you repeatedly claim that Snorri is the authority on what the ancient Greek's thought about MemnonThe original guy said >>221379135 "this makes it painfully obvious that Memnon wasn't ubiquitously seen as black in the ancient world even as far as the 13th century"I pointed out that your dishonest and pointless attacks on Snorri that have nothing to do with that guys point are retarded. Objectively nobody claimed Snorri was a "prime source" or a better authority than the original ancient texts, texts which all agree Memnon is from Troy. You can't read, it doesn't even occur to you that pretending you can read might make you seem more credible. You're too fucked in the head to even pretend. The 12th century scholars valued Roman sources less than ancient Greek sources for a reason.
>>221378269Anyone that uses the word chuddie is a JIDF or Englin faggot.
>>221380013>the ancient world even as far as the 13th centuryThe 13th century is not the ancient world. You know we are talking the 13th century AD here, right?>The 12th century scholars valued Roman sources less than ancient Greek sources for a reason.Name an ancient Greek source available to Snorri that was not available to the Roman authors I cited.
>>221378269>there was jeet BBC obsessed enough to gen thisGrim
Test
>>221380013>Objectively nobody claimed Snorri was a "prime source" or a better authority than the original ancient textsYes, that is what you claim. You claim that Snorri is a better authority than all those ancient texts (google 'ancient' please before you respond, and also when Snorri lived):Vergil (Aeneid 1.489): "black Memnon" (nigri Memnonis).>Ovid (Amores 1.8): "black Memnon" (nigri Memnonis).>Ovid (Amores 1.13): calls Memnon (Eos's son) ater ("black/dark").>Seneca (Agamemnon 212): "black Memnon" (Memnon niger).>Philostratus (Imagines 1.7.2, in Greek): explicitly discusses Memnon's skin as black.>Claudian (On Stilicho's Consulship 1.265): "dark-coloured Memnon" (nigra coloratus Memnon).>Corippus (Iohannis 1.186): "black Memnon" (niger Memnon).>Laevius (fragment preserved by Aulus Gellius): "Memnon, night-coloured" (Memnon nocticolor).>Manilius (Astronomica 1.767): calls Memnon "Dawn's black offspring" (Aurorae nigrum partum).You have repeatedly claimed that it is ridiculous to cite ancient Roman sources but perfectly legitimate to appeal to medieval Icelandic sources. That is actually what chuds pretend now.
>>221380162Dishonest illiterate libshit, you know exactly that back in those days niger meant white!
>>221380090Fuck off you subhuman dishonest retard.>>221380162>You have repeatedly claimed that it is ridiculous to cite ancient Roman sources but perfectly legitimate to appeal to medieval Icelandic sources.No I haven't. You've claimed that Roman sources based on nothing and known for making random shit up for some reason are more reliable than the actual Greek texts. The same ones which 12th century scholars translated and studied in the period when Greek sources started flooding Europe from the east.
>>221380278Lol you are literally claiming it AGAIN while simultaneously saying you don't, in one and the same sentence
>>221380162Here's a paper about the Roman nonsense and the much more reliable 12th century scholarship that actually references Greek sources instead of making shit up.https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12138-023-00640-2
>>221380301You are literally illiterate. So fucked in the head and dishonest that you literally can't read or think about any subject sincerely.
>>221380301Since you are apparently too retarded to understand your own post.Here is the part where you deny claiming that it is ridiculous to cite ancient Roman sources but perfectly legitimate to appeal to medieval Icelandic sources:>No I haven't.Here is the part where you then claim that it is ridiculous to cite ancient Roman sources:>Roman sources based on nothing and known for making random shit up for some reasonAnd here is the part where you claim that it is perfectly legitimate to instead appeal to medieval Icelandic sources:>12th century scholars translated and studied in the period when Greek sources started flooding Europe from the eastAnother question for you, lil chud, what do you mean by 'the east'? Perhaps the eastern Roman Empire?
>>221380308Damn, you hoped I wouldn't actually read this and just take your word for it, did you?>Never mentions Snorri>On Ethiopia: "classical and medieval geographies denoted huge swathes of sub-Saharan Africa with this term">"Of the many medieval terms for Africans, ‘Ethiopian’ was the one that most consistently meant ‘black">Never claims that 12th century scholarship was more reliable than "Roman nonsense". On the contrary, it argues that Memnon was subtly whitewashed by medieval authors though never explictly claimed to be white:>"It must be admitted that skin colour almost entirely disappears from these medieval sources. Benoît and Guido imply whiteness through their colouring of Memnon’s hair, but none of the texts is explicit about skin, only the images are. Even those texts that present Memnon most positively – his mother as Holy Church, himself as Christ – do not specify his skin colour as white"You just BTFO yourself, congrats.
>>221380348>And here is the part where you claim that it is perfectly legitimate to instead appeal to medieval Icelandic sourcesThe claim I'm making is that in the 12th century scholarship about the Greeks was better than in Rome where most discussion rested on sources like the Aeneid instead of the actual Greek texts. No claim about Memnon rests on this objective fact.The actual Greek texts explicitly tell us where exactly Memnon came from and his ancestry back generations. There's no ambiguity there. The only ambiguity comes from Romans latching on to the word Aethiopia and they never claim to base that on anything but that association.>>221380499You didn't read anything, you can't fucking read as demonstrated yet again by your dishonest skimming to cherry pick quotes.
>>221380162kek, fucking idiot doesn't realize that roman authors would have been influenced by what was "contemporary" greece at the time.Ovid (one of the sources this retard was using btw) claimed that HELEN OF TROY was a fucking wrestler in his metamorphosis, and there is nothing in the original greek myths that would even suggest that Helen did any wrestling or anything combative at all.This is an example of a roman author letting what would have been greece at the time influence their take on the myths. It's obvious that Ovid was going off of what Sparta was like at the time or atleast what later greek sources said about Sparta even though the Sparta of that time would have been completely different than the sparta of the bronze age or pre-homeric times. But I guess that means it's ok to have Helen Of Troy do brazilian Jiu Jitsu in an Odyssey adaptation because this one roman source said she did something of that sort.Snorri didn't have a bone to pick with the greeks (unlike the romans) and he couldn't just say "oh btw, Memnon was actually white (or white enough that a viking dude could possibly be his son) despite the prevailing myth being that he's black" because nobody would have been even remotely convinced if he was generally understood to be black. This retard keeps asking for an authentic greek source that proves he's not black, well, the source that explicitly tells us his parentage would qualify I imagine because if we assume that Memnon was black, then that would mean that Priam and Hector were black as well. He has to blatantly ignore the larger implication of Memnon's genealogy if he was hypothetically black.The Crux of this retard's overall argument is retarded regardless, it's ok to cast an explicitly greek character as black because someone on the trojan side opposing the Aegean army might possibly have been black?
>>221380574Show me the part of the article which says that 12th century Icelandic poets had better access to Greek mythology and more accurate scholarship than classical Roman writers then. Go on.
>>221380601>Romans can't be trusted because they mistook "what would have been greece at the time" for the greece of a prior century>An icelandic man 1500 years later, however, knew all about classical GreeceThis is what chuds actually have to claim.
>>221378269Why do pajeets love AI slop so much? Is it the lack of soul and intelligence that causes it?
>>221379382>Mycenaean Greeks are indo-europeans, how are they not white?they had 15% Indo-European admixture and were genetically closer to Syrian Arabs than whites
>>221380647Nobody said Snorri knew all about Classical Greece you retard. You on the other hand are the one claiming that Romans did.
>>221380908
>>221380647The point is, retard, is that the roman's understanding of the word "aethiopian" from the greeks at that time would have been different than how the term would have been understood in Homer's time or in the oral myths prior to him.For example, Ovid actually directly describes Andromeda as being black (bet you weren't aware of this otherwise you would have mentioned it since you don't actually look at these sources all that much) but then Philostratus the Elder contradicts this by saying she was fair-skinned.In case you weren't following moron, this is the only notable source that describes her as being black despite all the other sources either directly contradicting this or not even mentioning her supposed black features at all. Ovid looked at the contemporary meaning of the word "Aethiopian" and made the extrapolation that she was black and added it into his take on Perseus myth.But wait, why aren't there any greek sources/visual depictions explicitly describing her as black when Ovid felt the need to mention this? Because Aethiopia did NOT mean sub-sarahan Africa in Homer's time. And none of this would have been relevant to Snorri and his perception of the trojan war myths because he was going off of pre-roman sources.Retard
>>221380908I see you are scared to answer my earlier question regarding this claim you made:>>221380278>Greek sources started flooding Europe from the east.What is that 'east' you are referring to here?
>>221381020>The point is, retard, is that the roman's understanding of the word "aethiopian" from the greeks at that time would have been different than how the term would have been understood in Homer's time or in the oral myths prior to him.The closest source to Homer about Ethiopians is Hesiod. He is Greek he says that they are black. Why should I trust Snorri over Hesiod? The second closest source is Xenophanes. He also says they are black. Why does Snorri know more than this ancient Greek man about what ancient Greeks think?The third closest source is Pindar. Also says they are black. But I guess he just doesn't know as much about what he believes as Snorri, right chud?Also enlighten me about these oral myths prior to Homer, I am amazed that you are privy to what they say about Ethiopians given that none of them are preserved.
>>221381165Sorry, one correction: Xenophanes gives an earlier account of Ethiopians than Pindar. He also says they are black.
>>221381040The chud just googled and found out about the Eastern Roman Empire for the first time. Now he is in a fetal position on his mom's basement.
>>221381165Hesiod also gives Memnon a parentage that contradicts the idea of him being black, otherwise Hector and Priam would also be black as per this same source. And he doesn't explicitly describe them as black in the Theogony either.Xenophanes does not mention Memnon and he lived centuries after Homer, once again the definition of Aethiopia very likely changed in this large span of time as the word Aethiopia started to more broadly refer to the area south of Egypt when in Homer's time, it was alot more nebulous than that.Oh yeah, Pindar, the one describes Memnon as "bronze-armed" which clearly indicates he's black, unlike the epithet White-armed for Helen right?
>>221381578Moving the goalposts again lol. You said that the word "Ethiopian itself" did not mean black for the Greeks, now you are zeroing in on Memnon itself, chuddie. You got BTFO.What was "the east" that those great 12th century writers got their reliable information about Memnon from? what was it?
>>221381578>he lived centuries after Homer,unlike Snorri, right?Tell me: who was an ancient Greek person: Xenophanes or Snorri?
