>>221478637
He more than likely had a bunch of illegitimate heirs, but he clearly thought Jamie was enough even though he was a sister shagger.

>>221478637
His wife was the only thing he loved and couldn't bear to remarry after the monstrous imp killed her during birth.

>>221478637
His wife died giving birth to Tyrion and he was never king. All of his kids after would have been bastards.

>>221478898
>You can't remarry.

>>221478702
For a control obsessed guy, that's not a strong plan.

Having infinite heirs isn't fucking smart either.
They'll just end up killing eachother for power.

>>221478637
He always came across as a closeted character. Could just be the actor though.

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>>221479038
r/k selection theory

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Almost like he's a selfish liar.

>>221478637
bruh, the whole point of this character is that he is a hypocrite

>>221478997
He's a hypocrite.

>>221478637
Because his son was a complete chad and his daughter was queen. He thought he was completely set.

>>221480378
Finish your goddamn book, George. And writing a better story for your characters is more important than setting a tax policy for them.

>>221478637
look up the history of ottoman succession, tons of princeling pretenders leads to a slaughter on succession

having one son to inherit and a back up is plenty

>>221478859
that can't be true though because he is the baddie

>>221480441
Look up what happens when you don't have a successor. The Ottomans are the longest ruling dynasty in the history thanks to their limitless heirs. A bit of a struggle amount brothers is preferable to being weak and allowing other families to take the throne from you.

>>221478637
microplastics

>>221479658
>>221480408
>Characters saying one thing then doing another
Sounds like you're just covering up for bad writing

>>221478637

in the book he was a midwit asshole with delusions of grandeur. The show ruined this by casting Charles Dance, who was way too classy and suave for the role.

The narrative is compelling, the world is interesting, and the characters are well written, but most of it fall apart if you scrutinize it even a bit. ASOIAF doesn't understand feudalism because George's entire understanding of it comes from myths started in the 1700s by people like Voltaire.

>>221480424
Little did he know they were fucking like rabbits.

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>>221480516
>>221480441
>Ottomans royals have more English blood than the Windsors.

>>221480424
His son effectively disinherited himself to become a secret service member and his other son was a deformed little shit he despised. He was looking down the barrel of having his legacy being relegated to a literal clown midget and whatever he spawns if he can. Then he just doubles down on trying to convince his other son to relinquish his role which he's failed to do for 30 fucking years with his son growing more and more despondent to any argument.

>>221480541
>Rules the seven kingdoms with only thanks to his intellect.
>Not smart enough for the anon.

>>221480540
Not the case here; the book basically rubs in your face how Tywin's obsession with family name is at best a coping mechanism (his father almost ruined the family, gave a whore his mother's jewerly after she died) and at worst just an excuse to use his kids as pawns to settle personal grudges (Aerys rejected Cersei? And took my son away from me to be a glorified guard? Okay so I'll side with the rebels, and murder his grand children)

>>221480572
This, but you are giving it too much credit by referring to Voltaire or 1700s. The characters behave as if they live in a cosplay event in the 20th century in some castle.

>>221478637
Becuase he genuinely, unironically, deeply loved his wife and didn't wanna have kids with any other woman. Also >>221480408, see him using the secret Hand tunnel to visit brothels even though he hated whores 'cause of his dad.

>>221480653
I think giving Tyrion shit for whoring around is the funniest part given he was fucking Shae since he brought her to KL.

>>221480629
>intellect
His intellect was just being a ruthless psychopath backed up by money and being too politically useful at the given time but he was always building his house on mud as he slowly lost his fortune and alienated everyone that wasn't him. His big move was always terrifying force which only works if you can back up the idea you'll be able to do it again and that everyone you've crossed is actually afraid to die. Which is why he fucked up in the North, they don't operate like fickle Southerners and have a fatalist culture that incentivizes a good death over a long life.

>>221480662
Yeah he's probably getting this stuff as a fourth hand account.

OG source -> Voltaire -> some play writer or book author that read Voltaire -> someone that watched that play/read the book and wrote a Simpsons episode that references it -> GRRM

On a different note, when I first read the books, in portuguese, the way the Faith of the Seven is described sounds more politheistic, why years later when I heard the audiobook in english it sounds more like a monotheist religion with one God that has seven different aspects/faces.

Is trinitarianism another thing that George doesn't understand?

>>221480731
That's not even the best part, as >>221480731 said, he was a serial whoremonger with a tunnel built specifically that connects the tower of the hand to a brothell.

>>221478637
Its mentioned multiple times in the book that his cousin-wife Iohanna was the only human being he truly loved not as an extention of himself/pawn. So he choose to not remarry
His extended family is absurdly prolific anyway, the most prolific in the continent together with the Freys and the Hightowers.

>>221479016
Yeah. He clearly made mistakes despite his control. Which ended up with him dead.

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>>221478637
Carlo Massimo? Descendent of the Fabia Gens Bloodline?

>>221480763
Once you realize he grow up with the hippie generation it all makes sense. In his universe the religion is just a cosmetic thing. Some people worship to the old gods, and some new gods are invented, but somehow everyone is respectful to everyone else's beliefs. And Stannis arc focuses on a leader joining a cult, rather than an organic religion developing, which makes no sense at all because while it was common for leaders to enforce a religion on people while ruling over them, a guy rebelling against the kingdom has no chance other than being popular and sharing the beliefs of other royal families.

>>221480792
It's not hypocritical at all. It was clear that Tywin is not a purist. He simply cared about his reputation. His opposition to Tyrion was not his whoring, but doing it so openly and ashaming the family.

>>221478637
In the books, the ending leak is that Tyrion has his tongue removed.

>>221480919
I guess that we have different perspective on what hypocrisy is then. In my view, doing something you consider shameful, disgraceful or immoral in secret, while chastasing others for doing it openly, is to me as hypocritical as it gets.

He also had Tyrion's wife gangraped and exiled for marrying him as a commoner, and told Jaime to lie to Tyrion about her being a whore he hired.

>>221480763
>>221480894
Are you two niggas retarded? I didnt even like GOT (the show) and even I can tell that this is the most midwit "I've convinced myself I know more than GRRM" shit ever.

>>221478637
Why wasn't he just less of a dick to Tyrion? Wouldn't he have been pretty useful if he had been raised and supported properly?

>>221481100
There is still a consistency in his actions. His only obsession was having a good reputation for his family name, and his children did everything in their power to bring it down. Considering how Tyrion behaved throughout the series, Tywin's biggest mistake was not getting him killed in some "accident" and allowing him to cause harm to the family.

If he has lust enough to fuck whores, he should be able to gather himself enough to remarry outside of love just to reproduce more, it is indeed ridiculous that he didn't remarry.

>>221481122
Yes, I have a better understanding of how the medieval societies functioned. GRRM knows the historical stories but sets them in a universe that has similar values to the modern world.

>>221481134
Why didnt he just buy him golden stilts, or a suit of mecha armor?

>>221478859

This. He was obsessed with this macho power guy shit because deep down he was a chip on the shoulder faggot too weak to not get oneshotted by oneitis.


If he really had a soulful romance with his dead wife he would express it through love of their children. His love for his wife was probably entirely selfish in that he just loved intimacy for the safe space it allowed his deeply flawed self to receive love anyway. Faggot ass internet losers (apolitical) have respect for him because they're so unwell they can't even envision themselves as a hero or righteous person anymore, only a "deeply flawed, but tough n fair realist" guy is as far as they can achieve even in their own fantasies.

>>221480715
>he genuinely, unironically, deeply loved his wife
Are we sure about this? It seems something very out of character for him, who treated his children like shit. He was capable of loving her wife but not the children? Doesn't make sense. He was extremely cold even towards his brother Kevan. He was fair, sure. But he didn't show affection

>>221481122
>"I've convinced myself I know more than GRRM"

I probably know about a number of topics more than GRRM, maybe even medieval european history and governing structures. He probably knows a lot about other topics that I know nothing about.

You can tell that what he "knows" about it is just nonsense if you have a high school level of understanding of the medieval world. There's a bit in the books about Roose Bolton exercising his "prima noche" rights (even tho it was abolished in the North by that time) that just screams "all I know about that time period is that it was the Dark Ages, everything sucked and was bad, everyone was dumb and superstitious and no fun was allowed".

Everything Tywin tells other people to do is something he doesnt do himself. He genuinely loved his wife so he never wanted to remarry. Then he planned to make Cersei remarry immediately as an example. Telling Tyrion not to bring whores to King's Landing then bedding the same whore himself.

He's also wrong about literally everything and is dumb as dogshit but a lot of fans actually think he's smart or clever when he never wins a single time in the long run. He's an act now think later sort of guy. His entire red wedding plot literally didnt knock any other player out. He's like a guy who clears the table early in a game and then just crosses his arms smugly and insists he won even as everyone still makes moves around him.

>>221480628
To be fair, his son was sort of honor-trapped into the Kingsguard. He didn’t volunteer for it; Aerys named him to it, and knew that doing so fucked Tywin over.

>>221481134
He blamed Tyrion for the death of the only person he ever truly loved. Also, they don’t cover this in the show, but it’s hinted in the books that Tyrion could conceivably be Arys’s bastard. He even had hair that was a mixture of Lannister gold and Targaryen silver.

>>221482087
No, it's hinted that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' and Tyrion is Tywin's trueborn. But Tywin can't accept that. He hates Tyrion be cause he sees him as not his son but can never prove it. Just like Cersei was supposed to be paranoid that Tyrion would kill her when it was likely Jaime that would kill her one day.

>>221482147
I don’t know, man. I think it really could go either way.

>>221480590
Oh he knew, he knew, he just chose to not think about it.

>>221480611
>descendants of circassian sex slaves
who cares

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>>221478637
>Tywin marries High Tower girl after mad king fucks up his plans
>gains wealth and strategic power e.g. maesters
>less of the bullshit that comes with the high houses
>can subversively gain more control over house Tyrell via High Towers
Tywin was 39 when his plans for Jaime got fucked by the mad king so he had at least 20 years of time to re-marry, have a son and raise him himself.
If he went the High Tower path by the time his new kids were adults he could have full control over House Lannister, Tyrell and High Tower and be super-power tier on Westeros.

>>221481462
it's funny because even Napoleon overcame his oneitis

>>221481134
It's kinda funny how he treats Tyrion vs Jaime
>Jaime assaults Eddard but doesn't have balls to kill or capture him
>Jaime fucks his entire war plan by walking into a trap
And when Tywin rewards him with Valyrian steel sword...
Meanwhile
>Tyrion is sent to King's Landing to unfuck Cersei's mess
>Succeeds in unraveling the mess and is able to hold off King's Landing against Stannis
And his reward is:
>getting stripped of all power

For Tywin having a direct heir to succeed him was more of a matter of pride than necessity since he has numerous cousins and nephews members of House Lannister that he is willing to acknowledge as heir if everything else fails. But his big deal is the dual goal of getting Jaime to be lord of Casterly Rock after he dies, because Jaime is the giga Chad golden boy, and to bar the dwarf from inheriting anything from his house to avoid shame.

>>221479038
You can only have one heir. That's the point of naming an heir. So that everyone know where the power and wealth go after the main guy dies. There's been tons of people that had lots of siblings, cousins, and relatives and never had any crisis when the main guy died. It doesn't automatically mean everyone fights to the death just because the family is big. If anything, it usually means the opposite and the new heir takes care of the rest of the family with wealth and such. In a normal story, Renly would have supported Stannis as the heir and they would have easily curb stomped the rest of the pretender kings.

>>221484515
Tywin punishes Tyrion after Blackwater because he found out that Tyrion brought a prostitute to live with him in Kings Landing

>>221478637
he probably has no game
you dont see the mother of his cheldren

>>221484515
Tywin didn't want Tyrion's accomplishments upstaging him

>>221478637
>>221478859
>>221481462
It's a combination of
>1. He truly loved Joanna, and could never bring himself to remarry
>2. On some level, he's probably afraid that he would produce another dwarf. Tywin's greatest fear/insecurity is being laughed at.

>>221481602
Yes. It's said that the only time Tywin ever smiled was on his wedding day. He genuinely loved her.

>>221481134
He blames Tyrion for his wife's death, and worse, he knows Tyrion is more like him than any of his children and that deeply upsets him. At the Purple Wedding, Gemma Lannister says she once told him that Tyrion was his true son and he didn't talk to her for a whole year.

>>221481176
>Considering how Tyrion behaved throughout the series, Tywin's biggest mistake was not getting him killed in some "accident" and allowing him to cause harm to the family.
Tyrion behaves that way because Tywin treats him like shit. And that behavior embarrasses Tywin, leading him to treat Tyrion worse, encouraging Tyrion to behave worse, and so on and so forth until Tyrion skewers with a crossbow bolt on the shitter

>>221480628
>He was looking down the barrel of having his legacy being relegated to a literal clown midget and whatever he spawns if he can.
I mean he could have simply have forced Tyrion to become a maester, and then declared Kevan and Kevan's sons his heirs. Hell, Tyrion probably would have been happier that way.

>>221486465
Tywin has too much of an ego to allow his branch die and become a footnote in his mediocre brother's story.

>>221481462
>wanting to be a righteous person
raped mentality

>>221486605
Agreed. Which is incredibly funny, because instead of his branch dying he sort of guaranteed that his whole house is going to die.

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>>221478637
>why didn't he produce more heirs?

He did.

Was it ever established with proof that Tywin's dad did anything wrong at all? The only witness to his alleged weakness is Tywin who claims the coffers were empty from his overly charitable and allegedly easily manipulated nature but right after Tywin dies Cersei has to start writing bad checks to the Iron Bank and ignore their calls because theyre actually broke.

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George's biggest mistake was killing off Tywin because once he died you quickly realize that all that is left after him is a bunch of squabbling retards who don't know that they're doing. Exhibit A: the Bolton's should have immediately lost da norf when he died. Tywin should have been the final boss for Daenerys/young Griff.

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>>221480516
>Look up what happens when you don't have a successor.

Tywin probably planned on disinheriting Tyrion somehow and making Tommen his heir or Daven Lannister, though it's (another Gurm) plothole that he didn't get Jaime "fired" from the Kingsguard after Robert seized the Iron Throne, seeing as Jon Arryn was needlessly bending over backwards for Tywin on every other issue (another plothole).

>>221486938
>Was it ever established with proof that Tywin's dad did anything wrong at all?
No, not really. The only actual concrete evidence we have is that Tywin's sister was married to a Frey, which is an unusually poor match for a Lannister on paper, but then you remember that the Freys are actually pretty wealthy despite their relatively low social status. And of course they ended up being pretty relevant strategically as well.

Tbh I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation to see all of Twyin's anger at his father to be based on personal hangups about the women in their family (Tytos disrespecting Tywin's mother by taking a mistress, Tytos marrying Genna off to a Frey, etc.). It all comes back to his own insecurities

>>221487030
How are those plotholes?

>>221486999
Tywin was pretty stupid himself and got lucky that tyrion killed him when he did with that crossbow.
All his plans failed or were in the process of failing. The north was very openly plotting a rebellion and even murdering Freys in public on major roads during the day. It took Davos 5 minutes with Manderly to comprehend how much of a powder keg it was and he was a dumb common born sailor. Even he could read the room. Then there's Dorne who had every right to hate him making moves simultaneously. And in both instances Tywin just smugly assured himself his fuckery had indeed subjguated these obstinate pissed off lunatics on both sides of his impoverished kingdom. And right after he is dead its revealed theyre actually out of money and running of bad loans they don't plan to pay back.

Seriously the guy would've been ripped limb from limb if he'd lived a few more months and that's operating on the assumption he hadn't already been poisoned when Tyrion found him.

>>221487030
>though it's (another Gurm) plothole that he didn't get Jaime "fired" from the Kingsguard after Robert seized the Iron Throne

I don't think that' s a plothole at all. Cersei and Jaime would have both had a vested interest in preventing that from happening, and considering that Robert is perpetually drunk he's almost cartoonishly easy to manipulate. Tywin would have been annoyed that Robert was oddly unwilling to budge on this particular point, but he would have never suspected why.

>>221481217
>>221481924

Indeed, GRRM has a pop-culture understanding of history, economics, warfare, etc. that's not really any better then the average 4channer, (us older ones at least) his talent is writing a good story but once you start picking apart the details, you see all kinda errors and plotholes.

>>221487030
Robert got the throne because of Tywin but he was still in many ways his own man and he fucking hated them. The idea of another Lannister fuckwit reproducing would be abhorrent to his tender Baratheon sensibilities. He probably forced Jaime to remain a Kingsguard explicitly to get one big fuck you over on a guy as abrasive and demented as Tywin. And Robert for sure would've wanted to because even he was disgusted by what Tywin did to Elia.

>>221487274
Agreed but I think that's better than the reverse. Brandon Sanderson can write page after page about the economic structure of Mordor and how his heroes can cause a political collapse by raiding the treasury (Sauron needs gold to pay his orcs, even if Sauron is all-powerful he can't be everywhere in Middle-Earth at once, if you cause rebellions all over he can't control it, etc.) and it's honestly boring as shit.

I'll take GRRM's "Littlefinger rubs his hands together and coins appear, also the wall is 3000 feet tall and Westeros is the size of South America" over that any day as long as the story and characters are good.

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>>221480736
>His intellect was just being a ruthless psychopath backed up by money and being too politically useful at the given time but he was always building his house on mud as he slowly lost his fortune and alienated everyone that wasn't him. His big move was always terrifying force which only works if you can back up the idea you'll be able to do it again and that everyone you've crossed is actually afraid to die
Uh yeah

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>>221487076
>>221487093
>>221487279

Robert Baratheon with Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully and Eddard Stark was able to win the rebellion and seize the Iron Throne, Tywin and the Westermen didn't show up until the war was essentially over (and then he sacked Kingslanding, Robert's future capitol, for no reason) and while marrying Cersei makes sense, there is no way Robert would have kept Jaime in the Kingsguard nor would the nobility of Westeros stood for that.

It makes no sense for House Lannister to be as prominent as they were.

>>221481956
All Tywin does is aura farm and commit heinous atrocities that would shame his family name for generations and ensure that nobody would ever attempt to deal with him or the Lannisters in good faith ever again. He doesn't even do things to win over the dumb masses, he just marries his murderous insane incestuous hag daughter to whoever's grasping for power and thinks that will somehow profit him.

>>221487522
It would make more sense for the Tyrells to be running shit and be wealthy. They halfassedly supported Aerys and the Lannisters had outplayed their hand by sacking King's Landing. As much as I enjoy the books, they're filled with these odd logical holes that are there to drive narrative forward.

Would the lannisters still be in power if tyrion married sansa and cersei married loras?

>>221487603
To expand, the Martells, Tyrells, Baratheons, Arryns and Tullys have all way too little presence in King's Landing considering how they're the most powerful and wealthy land owners of the continent. Instead it's just Lannisters running shit with everyone else seemingly fine with having no influence whatsoever.

But as another said, Georgey boy probably thought a realistic depiction of diplomacy and politics would be too boring when most readers just want the drama, action and sex.

>>221487698
The Tyrells were only cozying up to them to undermine and replace them as the power behind the throne to begin with and I don't even know what advantage marrying Sansa in to the Lannisters was supposed to give them except preventing her from going to be the queen of the north and reviving the Starks, and Tyrion probably would have done everything in his power to help her do that if the shit never hit the fan at Joffrey's wedding.

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>>221487603
>>221487724

House Tyrell and Martell were on the losing side but yeah, King Robert's court should have had all kinda Stormlanders, Valemen, Rivermen and Northmen holding important positions.

It's ridiculous that Robert's children with Cersei would have a divided coat of arms with House Lannister equal to House Baratheon, when Tywin left him hanging during the rebellion and only showed up at the end and his actions were dishonorable (sacking the city, Jaime murdering the king and the murders of Elia Martell and the little kids).

>>221487908
Yeah even if Tyrells were on the losing side, they only supported Aerys at the very minimum and obviously were only bound by oath to do it. The Baratheon rule would recognize this and with the lack of Tyrell opposition being why they won the war. The Martells were trickier, why marrying into the family murdering Martells was a shit retarded idea. The Lannisters had isolated themselves sacking King's Landing and were in no position to make big demands on the new rule.

Basically it makes no sense why the Lannisters virtually got the whole continent handed to them after the war.

>>221478637
Because he didn't care about his family and legacy. He saw his father being made fun of and it mentally raped him so hard he developed a coping mechanism. He didn't have more sons because he was also a cringe basedboy romantic cuck and straight up just refused to marry again because "these whores are not my cousin-wife". His whole character is a chud who tries to convince everyone around him that he's a chad.

>>221488132
And he would have succeeded if he was a better father and his kids weren't so retarded

>>221487908
>>221488057
The Lannisters sacking the city meant that when the real rebels got there, the Lannisters were already holding it, giving them a pretty commanding position at the bargaining table. Even then, all they got out of it on paper was Cersei's marriage to Big Bobby B. Everything else came through years of the absentee king letting Cersei mind the throne while he partied hard and let the crown sink deeper and deeper in to debt to her family.

>>221488225
>The Lannisters sacking the city meant that when the real rebels got there, the Lannisters were already holding it,
They relinquished the city to Stark troops the moment they arrived with no negotiations. But what's logical and what's good story are rarely the same. This story basically operates on the "worst possible outcome" scenarios for everything as to drive the narrative forward.