>*kills you and makes a copy*
>>222764317Did they get the idea from Rick and Morty?
>>222764391Skinny Pete and Badger already talked about this in Breaking Bad
>>222764317not trueyou are very alivejust transported to the voidkind of like Under the Skin
>>222764317Kills You, maybe. I'm skilled enough to win the coin toss and survive.
>>222764317>Computer, where is commander Troy at the moment>Computer: in the sonic shower>Good, teleport her to my location at once.
>>222764317>>222764391>>222764450>>222764471>>222764894>>222765364>>>/trek/
or maybe just kills you
>>222764317I was the first person to discuss this aspect of Star Trek on /tv/. The idea that every time someone used the transporter it actually killed you and reassembled the body in another location. But what I failed to realize is that we are not actually our bodies but rather the conscious observer of them. We are actually pure conscious awareness having a human experience.
>>222764317>slip into a decade long coma>body is kept alive, 95% of cells renew themselves>wake up in 10 yearsare you a clone?
>>222765540>Clone you>Kill the originalare you a clone?
In the setting it is perfectly possible to be a living being composed purely of energy and most energy beings were flesh once. The transporter just does that temporarily.
>>222765652cloning and killing happens simultaneously.are you a kill?
>>222764317>kills youAre you retarded? Of course it doesn't kill you. You get transported to a nether realm with all other versions of transported beings.
>>222764317Derek Parfit solved this in 1984 numb nuts.
>>222765718To the me who died, sure.To anyone else, one of me died, and there is another me.
Your conciousness remains the same regardless of the version of "you,"
>>222766091If I select a file, click copy and paste to a new folder, then delete the original. Is it the same file? Is the "you" that was inhabiting that file now inside the copy or was it still in the deleted file?
>>222764471>>222765481>>222765652>>222765540>>222765687>>222766091"Our Man Bashir" is a fantastic episode. It also definitely proves that teleporters kill you.Data from the DS9 crew was transferred to the holosuites and the crew were partially reconstructed in virtual reality because the magic shit they say is in the buffer is nothing more than that -- data. The "you" that is "you" is reduced from a physical/organic construct and/or consciousness as the mental gymnasts define it into a series of 1s and 0s that is then implanted into a reconstructed biological form. These two forms are independent within the pattern buffer, whereas they are not withing the original organic being. Death, as we know it, is a CERTAIN threshold to such a phenomenon."Rascals" likewise proves the same, as the crew were reassembled into children based on forms existing within the database of the teleporter's pattern buffer. The minds were separated, reduced to data, which was then copied."Realm of Fear" does not show a continuity of consciousness. It shows that the instantaneous nature of the death of "you" and the creation of your replicant are so close in time that latter cannot perceive the death of the former. If anything, it calls into question the "Ship of Theseus" debate, but in that instance both existed simultaneously, it was not one replacing the other indefinitely, because there will be never be an "original" reconstructed somewhere.This is without even entertaining obvious the issues raised by the "identical" Riker from "Second Chances" that retards constantly try to handwave.Lieutenant Reginald Barclay was 10000% right, take the fucking shuttle. Doesn't matter how long it takes. Everything else is Federation propaganda.>b-but muh aleeums Other races have different value structures, they don't mind dying and being reconstructed.
>>222765456It'll buff out.
Do transporters make you eternally virgin?
>>222767136One of the most horrifying trek moments. What was the point of it, narrative and theme-wise?
>>222767113>they don't mind dying and being reconstructed.Neither do I. If I can't tell the difference and am treated as though I was the original, it doesn't matter.
>>222767163Wasn't there a scene in one of the original trek movies, where Kirk sees a transporter test and the test subject get turned to mush?
>>222767179Transporters could potentially be used for immortality.Ofcourse transporters are some of the most iconic thing about Star Trek from a lore standpoint they don't make sense.
>>222764317same thing happens every night when you sleep
>>222767257Wait.So you're saying there's only one version of me that actually had sex in high school, and every day is basically just a pathetic virgin brain-voyeur spanking it to a temporal clone?
>>222767163Narrative wise the malfunction indicated the Enterprise refit wasn't ready for deployment, and it ended up being the reason for Spock to take over again as science officer since Commander Sonak was killed.
>>222767220Are you the same "you" you were 20 years ago?Since you are not interchangeable, we see that it is not the case.So, the question has to be asked, when did the past you stopped being you and when did the current you come into being.If you are not the same person you were in the past then one can never achieve true immortality, since at some point the person they were in the past is gone.
>>222767113>get forcibly transported in an emergency or by a foreign power>instantly killed
>>222767179>a clone of me with my memories is literally me, it doesn't matter if I get disintegratedpeak materialist moment. You'd be fine with it fucking you wife too right, it's the same thing as doing it yourself after all.
>>222764894the coin toss is you losing every single time, “you” are always left behind
>>222767472If I'm dead yeah, it won't matter to me or to my wife.If I'm alive, then I wouldn't want someone else fucking my wife.
>>222767355>we killed you so you wouldn't die
>>222767179it does matter to the you that actually diedalso consider this: if you believe that the original you died - which is accurate - your clone would inherit that belief, and know it's a clone and that "you" died, and your clone would immediately be a different person as it would have a different conception of its self as a person
this is the complete operation timeline of what happens when someone gets transported. 5 seconds in total. From the Next Gen technical manual. >Pic 1 of 2
>>2227675412
>Tfw I go to sleep every night and die and a brand new form of my consciousness takes over
>>222767540>it does matter to the you that actually diedHe's dead, nothing matters to him anymore.>>222767540>if you believe that the original you died - which is accurate - your clone would inherit that belief, and know it's a clone and that "you" died, and your clone would immediately be a different person as it would have a different conception of its self as a personMy stance was clearly stated on the assumption that one can't tell the difference.
The DS9 episode with miles time shifting is funny when they have the convo about you being me just do it. I hate temporal mechanics!
>>222767562you're talking about third party perspectives and not your ownyou would be the one that diesif you don't care about this, that it "doesnt matter", you're basically suicidal
>>222767541>>222767555Star Trek is cool because it was made by autists who legit made technical manuals for everything by engineers and scientists
>>222767625>you're basically suicidalI am, but it's more than that.Since I don't believe in an afterlife, then there's nothing after you die, no thought, no emotion, no awareness, no consciousness, no subconsciousness, nothing.So it's not a question of caring, it's that caring no longer exists for the individual that died.
>>222767646It's absolute technobabble.
>>222767646the Starfleet survival guide is also turbo autism. Highly recommend
>>222767662yes well this discussion is perhaps most relevant for people who care about dying, and avoiding ways that easily result in you dyingi assume you take basic precautions in daily life that avoid obvious ways of dying, avoiding hopping in a transporter is the same thinga transporter gets you to a place fast, but at the cost of dying. do you speed in your car as much as possible to get to a place fast, or do you drive at a more reasonable speed, compromising speedy arrival, so that you dont die?
>>222764317>>222767113StarTrek is a materialist atheist show, so it just transferring data doesn't matter because that's all people are in their eyes.
>>222767677Sure but it's the fact they did it anyway.No other show has had such in-depth fictional technical guides, diagrams, scientific books etc. They did consult with engineers and NASA etc a lot. Of course it's all technobabble, but it's fun.
>>222767741my wife just got transported... is it cheating on my dead wife to bang my clone wife? is my marriage dissolved in the eyes of god? what do i owe my golem wife?
>>222767741Anon literally Apollo the Greek god of knowledge is in an episode and establishes the entire pantheon existed thus validating all of Greek mythology.
>>222764317I can get behind it killing your body and reconstructing it. But what i dont understand is how your new body isnt just a hollow shell with no functioning activity
>>222764317>Safely moves you across the universe intact without killing you and cures your cancer
>>222767715I'm not saying that the person that steps into the transporter doesn't die, but that it doesn't really matter.It only matters because of the mechanism of transportation, while the effect is no different than true teleportation.
>>222767837you're being obtuse now, your death matters, anyones death matters. just because you are suicidal doesn't make it not trueif I kill you, "you" are no longer around to care, but your friends and family will care, the state will care, i will still go to jail for itit's just that in star trek, no one cares about me murdering you as long as I pop out a perfect clone of you simultaneously after murdering youin star trek i could walk into a private room with you for an hour, viciously rape and sodomize you and kill you, and then clean it up and make a clone and walk out with no one (or the clone) any wiser to what happened. what happened in that room matters, even if superficially it seems to others like nothing happened, anyone told the truth would agree that yes, what happened in that room matters
>>222767113that’s an episode about a transporter accident that caused deaths, but it’s okay because copies were able to be made with the transporter. Transporter accidents are well established to cause deaths. There are also transporter accidents that cause life. There’s also a transporter accident that causes a new life to be formed from two deaths and then two lives (copies) to be formed from one death.But generally, as in 99.99% of the time, transporters don’t kill. It’s just an short period of directed physical transcendence that is allowed to revert naturally at the destination point.
Makes me think of this old Canadian animation:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocgFkHElzgQ
>>222765848>To the me who died, sure.This is the only point that matters.>To anyone else, one of me died, and there is another me.Who cares? You're dead and can't experience it, so what does it matter if "one of you" is still alive? I can't comprehend the level of narcissism required to genuinely think that it's literally better to die than survive as long as some other version of you outlives you in the world.
>>222767913>i could walk into a private room with you for an hour, viciously rape and sodomize you and kill you,And I would suffer while this happens and would absolutely want to prevent it, but when I'm dead, it's over, I no longer exists, I cannot remember it, I have no trauma from it, I cannot even think about thinking of it.I know my death matters in the real world, since it will affect those around me, but, as you said, in Star Trek, no one is the wiser.Setting aside the workings of the transporter, and assuming people in Star Trek don't consider it, than nothing has changed for them, or for any reality observed by them.Granted if they think that the transporter kills you, and that the other you isn't the real you, then they would act accordingly.I'm simply stating that this isn't the case, and, considering there is no difference between the individuals, it doesn't matter, as in it doesn't cause any effect, other than "moving" your location.
>>222768033>I can't comprehend the level of narcissism required to genuinely think that it's literally better to die than survive as long as some other version of you outlives you in the world.Neither can I, what I'm saying is that as long as everyone takes the transported me as the real me, it makes no difference.The me that stepped in the transporter is gone and no longer capable of any action, let alone introspection.
>>222768131>>222768170It makes no difference from a materialist perspective, but even as an atheist myself, there is much unknown to reality, with some questions beyond empirical science itself. For example, we have no clue why we have an “experiential” nature to reality. Why do we have a “perspective”? Introspection? Why aren’t we just robots or golems or philosophical zombies?The fact we do have this subjective experience of reality is suggestive that it matters on some level. Time is just a dimension we’re moving through for example, but at an extra dimensional level, time exists all at once, just like how you see your phone or monitors entire width all at once.I think your suicidal but intellectual nature has you convinced you understand reality more than you really do. You’re scheming an intellectual fairy tale that ultimately justifies committing suicide.Reality is not just materialist. I don’t know what it really is - we’re trapped in this dimension and can’t look at our existence from an objective perspective - but I greatly intuit (for no one has proof) that you’re wrong that it doesn’t matter for you to die and be replaced like that. It may not matter to Starfleet, but it matters cosmically.
>>222768033He’s just saying to the new copy of the guy who died in the transporter accident, if no one treats the new copy differently from the dead original, then it quite literally does not matter.What’s funny is the riker episode is already at this point in the chain of logic at the onset and moving past it.
>>222764317False. Kirk explains to "Excalbian" Lincoln in The Savage Curtain that the transporter converts you to energy and then reassembles you. Same you, not a copy.
Dying and being replaced by a copy didn't seem to bother Weyoun too much.
>>222768380Anon it’s not just a “materialist perspective.” Even if you ascribe to dualism there isn’t much evidence the soul retains any specific knowledge or experience from previous lives.
>>222768398>Kirk explains to "Excalbian" Lincoln in The Savage Curtain that the transporter converts you to energy and then reassembles you.Thats the thing, it pulls you apart then builds a perfect copy. Therefore it kills you and the person walking on the destination is your clone. Your consciousness ended during the transfer.
>>222768515I beg to differ. It makes no sense given our current understanding of physics, but hundreds of years from now they are able to convert matter to energy and back again. It's the exact same molecules being reassembled.
>>222768466I’m not talking about souls, and I don’t subscribe to dualism. I have a suspicion that consciousness is an inherent property of all matter, it can just be expressed in different forms or be imperceptible.For example, according to science, we are nothing but atoms. An atom is neither dead or alive. Dead or alive is a subjective concept we apply for convenience. Every atom is exactly alike another atom, each proton exactly like another proton. From these atoms we have consciousness. We have no proof that consciousness magically arises at some arbitrary point of sufficiently complexly arranged atoms, so the alternative is that consciousness, the experiential nature to reality, is at some level inherent to all atoms, and possibly to its building blocks or energy itself.
>>222768380>I think your suicidal but intellectual nature has you convinced you understand reality more than you really do. You’re scheming an intellectual fairy tale that ultimately justifies committing suicide.>Reality is not just materialist. I don’t know what it really is - we’re trapped in this dimension and can’t look at our existence from an objective perspective - but I greatly intuit (for no one has proof) that you’re wrong that it doesn’t matter for you to die and be replaced like that. It may not matter to Starfleet, but it matters cosmically.Oh, I absolutely don't claim to know anything for a fact, and it is, to some extent, equivalent to belief.It's just that, to me, it seems beyond reasonable doubt that nothing exists outside of physical reality.You're also somewhat right about this being a rationalization for suicide, but I wouldn't call it a fairy tale.Under the assumptions I've made, the logic is sound.Among other reasons, I find that conjecturing an entire hidden side of reality just to explain human qualia, is a more elaborate explanation than others, and, to me, less believable.
>>222768635I wouldn’t call it elaborate, more just an admission of ignorance. I’m trying to be clear on what’s speculative, but there is a lot we don’t know, and may never know.Imagine the far fate of the universe, countless eons from now. We project that galaxies will recede from each other - faster than the speed of light. That means one day in the universe, a solar system will exist that sees no galaxies beyond itself, or even other solar systems. Such sights are forever, permanently beyond their reach due to the speed of light being what it is.If intelligent life exists on such a system, they will, by the laws of physics, be forever unable to grasp the fundamental nature of the universe to the extent we do now. They will have no way of ever confirming that other stars or galaxies exist. Their vision and capacity for knowledge is permanently constrained. We live in a similar state now, just less severe than what they will have. We can’t see beyond the Big Bang to grasp the nature of existence before our current universe got set into motion. There is much about reality beyond our grasp, no matter how hyper atheist and scientific we are.
>>222768753While it is true, that there are many things we don't know. Everything we have verified so far must still be true, since reality is consistent.I simply think that what we know so far is much more indicative of a physicalist view of reality, than other views.
>>222768865that’s because we can only study it via physicalist means, you can’t study the immaterial with material or vice versa
>>222764317
>>222768390>if no one treats the new copy differently from the dead original, then it quite literally does not matter.It matters to the person who sacrificed his life so a copy could take over.
>>222764391>>222764450Outer limits cucked both of them 25 years ago
>>222768865Consider for a moment the totality of all that exists. It is immediately obvious that the entirety of the totality of all that exists cannot be known, as we are contained within it.
>>222768515“Reassemble” is just what Kirk’s understanding of it is.
>>222766329Yes that is the point. If consciousness originates from within the body, then yes you are dead. If the body is more like an antenna intercepting signals from external sources (actually is some evidence for this being true like our skin cells acting like psychic detectors) then maybe consciousness could survive the process and it would from now on go to two separate entities instead of one if you copy it without deletion.
>>222769047No, it doesn’t, because that person does not exist anymore and has no capacity to care.
Relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXKUcsvhQc
>>222769063Your statement is based on the assumption that we are unknowable, but what do you base that assumption on?
>>222767923Uh, retards, /thread is at >>222767923.
>>222765652>Kill you>Clown youHow's that for "original"
>>222769161>Murder is completely moral as long as no one knows it happened! The victim can't care any more, so as long as no one else knows, I'm completely in the moral clear.
>>222768437And yet when another Weyoun, #6, defected #7 didn't say "Oh, well, must be the will of the Founders.", he started seething and insisting #6 kys and withheld rippleberries from him because as it turns out a single mostly unbroken stream of consciousness was not okay when it deviated from HIS identity. Despite him having no claim to it because he was merely a copy of #5 who by all rights was continued in #6, not #7. He was an illegitimate consciousness stream violation with modifications that made him deviate from the prime consciousness timeline.Weyoun was a fucking hypocrite and I'm glad the Founders made him genetically incapable of enjoying anything that wasn't shaped like deez kava nuts.
How come Scotty was able to keep himself in the transporter buffer for like 69 years with the pattern degrading? He did it in a piece of shit ship too. Why didn't Starfleet use that shit again?
>>222767541>>222767555Keep in mind that Discovery did away with the transporter room sequence in favor of instant teleportation comm badges that magically know where you want to go with no instructions or commands or transportation equipment whatsoever. Because the modern audience attention span couldn't even last five seconds watching people standing still in a transporter room.
If scientists are so smart how come they know so little about consciousness
>>222769445Scotty's genetic makeup was severely altered by exposure to the unshielded components of engineering over the course of his career, and due to his diet and lifestyle his genes had actually assimilated high fat and alcohol levels as a baseline state for a "healthy" cell. Alcohol and fat, being simple compounds, are much easier to store digitally in the transporter buffer. The man was 60% rum balls.
>>222768576You die tommorow. Five gigajillion years into the future the molecules that made up your body just happen to arrange in the same exact order to form you. Is it still you?The issue was never what sci-fi bullshit happens but if there is continuity of consciousness (hence the jokes in other posts about each sleep killing you). It's literally impossible to prove or disprove it because the only person that could tell is the person entering the transporter and in either case it's impossible to say what they experience, because if there is no continuity of consciousness the guy that comes out isn't a reliable narrator. Within this framework you can't even really prove that "you" from a second ago is the same as "you" of now. There's a horror game called Soma that goes into this.
>>222767113Yeah but 4 all you know you die every time you go to sleep and wake up with a new consciousness or like maybe even every 2nd theres no way to know.
>>222764317This argument has always been retarded and relies on hokey, quasi-religious concepts about death and continuity of consciousness.>"It kills you because it breaks you apart!"Then it puts you back together. So what?>"But you don't exist for a split second!"So? There's no problem with that unless you fall back on unfalsifiable metaphysics bullshit. Continuity of conscious is an illusion, and as for your body, every cell in your body is constantly being replaced. After 7 years, not a single cell is the same anymore. Does that le kill you? Of course not.
>>222769541that’s just a pop sci myth dude, some cells last for life, specifically much of our brain which is what we care about here
>>222769509Try forming an image of yourself without a mirror
>>222769611Why don't scientists just use a mirror, then? Are they stupid?
>>222769541>Continuity of conscious is an illusion, and as for your body, every cell in your body is constantly being replaced. After 7 years, not a single cell is the same anymore. Does that le kill you? Of course not.Brain-fucking-dead take. First, that is a genuine shitwit reddit myth - many of your cells never replace and last from birth to death, this includes neurons and overwhelming amount of all brain matter where I think we can all agree is where our consciousness originates from (inb4 soul is stored in the balls and women have no soul).Even if we disregard that, replacing parts of the original do not interrupt the continuity of consciousness as long as it's done slowly enough that the consciousness has time to move from old cells to new ones.
>>222769611Do you mean an image of myself as if I had never used a mirror or something? Because I have a rather solid idea on how I look at any given moment simply because I've seen myself in mirrors and photos.
How would transporters even work in real life? Say you figured out the data storage, energy requirement, and processing power to do this to any reasonable object.How does the transporter figure out where you start and end? Does it draw a shape around you? Does it include a buffer around you to contain your clothes? What happens if you wear a puffy jacket or have a long pony tail? Does that get transported too?What about all the air around you, what about all the neutrinos passing through that space at that moment?What about all the particles that pop into existence? What about any stray neutrons passing by, or high energy particles going through you right now, or all the alpha, beta and gama radiation Do they also get transported.What happens at the destination? Is all the matter and the space that you would occupy get destroyed? What happens when you leave, and all the neutrinos and subatomic particles disappear from that location, does a true vacuum form? Does air rush in? does a nuclear explosion happen when you materialize and trillions of particles get annihilated?Is information destroyed? Is new information created?Lets say all this happens at the smallest possible time frame, a single planck second if you will. Do you truly die, or are you simply transported from one location to another in a time period so short that no real time has passed.
>>222769518>You die tommorow. Five gigajillion years into the future the molecules that made up your body just happen to arrange in the same exact order to form you. Is it still you?If they're the same molecules, then it's not a copy.
>>222769789They use AI to judge what gets transported
>>222769789>How would transporters even work in real life? Glorified 3D printers which would require levels of power, computation and matter manipulation rivaling that of a fairy tale genie. Try to scan the body as accurately as possible, scan the brain activity, project that onto the brain, kickstart the rest of the body and hope the whole thing "resumes" where it left off.>How does the transporter figure out where you start and end? [...]At the levels of scanning and computation required to actually make a perfect copy of a guy shit like this would be relatively easy to filter and honestly relatively irrelevant aside from being a slightly more bitch to make on the other end.>What happens at the destination? Is all the matter and the space that you would occupy get destroyed?On the recieving end your body is printed exactly the same and all air is presumably displaced, though if you are doing it at Star Trek speeds you probably want a vacuum or else air bubbles might be trapped, though again, considering the technology level here you could do whatever you want.>What happens when you leave [...]does a nuclear explosion happen when you materialize and trillions of particles get annihilated?No. Your shit is probably quickly broken down into simplest particles and sucked into the 3D printer tank for printing bodies.>Is information destroyed? Is new information created?No.>Lets say all this happens at the smallest possible time frame, a single planck second if you will. Do you truly die, or are you simply transported from one location to another in a time period so short that no real time has passed.You die.
>>222769828One atom is fundamentally the same as any other atom.
>>222769248There are sharp distinctions between murder and accidents
>>222769828Okay, I'll do you one better. You live to ripe old age of a 100. However, in five niggaillion years the same particles happen to form together a version of you from yesterday.Is it you? It's not a copy after all, but you have already lived past the point you were at yesterday. When your 100 years old ass dies, do you transfer into the body from five niggajillion years in the future, or is there just nothing?>inb4 i don't care because I'm already deadYes, well, the whole point of the exercise is to avoid dying in first place.
>>222764317>*kills you and makes a copy*If you're lucky
>>222764894>He is that kind of retard who believes in the coin toss.There aren't any coin toss
I hate that this is tied to a Paramount franchise. Paramount, which does not deserve to live.
>>222770091Transporters being designed to kill and copy is no accident. Every person who was ever transported without a complete briefing on the implications was murdered.
>>222765540Ship of Theseus?
>>222765652>Make a female clone of you.>Have sex with herIs it incest or just masturbation with extra steps?
>>222770387It's called selfcest.
>>222767613Poor O'Brian.He only got beatings from the life at day 1
>>222767148Discussing them does.
How do I know if I'm the real one?
>>222770554Check your penis size
>>222770588Its tiny:(
>>222770658They can teleport you into a body with a bigger penis. But (You) will die. Your clone will go on to slay lots of pussy though. So you can live your last moments happily knowing that.
>>222770721>Computer, adjust teleporter parameters so that every man, besides me, emerges from the teleporter with a smaller dick than me.>Computer, adjust teleporter parameters so that every woman emerges from the teleporter with DD breasts.
>>222770658Then you are the real one
>>222770767Based Btw fuck Ryker
>>222764317it it gonna make a copy............at least do it so I got mega huge penis........and 7ft tall........and giga chad physique..............and also one million dollar in my pocket............and sexy gilf catgirl wife............or wives............sexo..........and ounce of top quality weed.........
>>222771089Turning usless human bio cunts something waaaay better.
>>222764471Correct>>222767113The Mr Broccoli transporter episode proves you don't die
>>222770004This isn't printing or growing. This is breaking you down, moving your matter, and reassembling you.
>>222771925You will be turned to snOylent green
