>>223754873
Don't fucking blame jj. Rian could have done anything

It's not a bad film at all, but it's a weak sequel. If you cut out the lame modern humor that breaks the immersion and the gross forced kiss, it really isn't so bad. That is, if you're in the mood for a ruined SW universe. TRoS is far, far worse.

>Everything
While I'm more positive toward Last Jedi than most anons, no, there are things Rian chose which were unforced and bad regardless of what TFA did.
Like Yoda's force ghost being able to cast lightning. It opens up an "eagles to Mordor" type can of worms for no good reason

>>223755220
>Like Yoda's force ghost being able to cast lightning

To be fair, Obi-Wan's ghost sat on a log in RotJ. So it's been established that ghosts do affect the material world, just like poltergeists in the real world here.

>>223754873
Counterpoint: Rose Tico. I win.

>>223755299
Sitting or standing somewhere is different from being able to inflict damage.
Harry Potter has a moment where ghostlike entities are able to help in a fight by surrounding Deh and blocking his view for a moment. They're not able to cast spells. Maybe it's better to limit things that way

Imagine if the prequels looked like tlj

>>223755092
The big fight being full of missed cues and having weapons digitally removed rather than just reshooting that little bit shows he didn't give a hot shit about making a decent movie.

>>223755441
>Sitting or standing somewhere is different from being able to inflict damage.

Sitting on a rotted definitely causes damage.
>Harry Pooper
Never seen and never will, so irrelevant.

>>223755510
I thought the throne room was the best part but then tv killed it

*log
my fault
>>223755470
>Imagine if the prequels looked like tlj
We would have tarred and feathered the entirety of LFL.

>>223754873
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like either Mar Mar Abrams or Retard Johnson, but while Johnson is a hack, Abrams is a *turbo*hack. I think Johnson’s smart enough to recognize this and everything he does in TLJ is him calling JJ’s bluff.

>>223755510
Truth.

>>223755120
>It's not a bad film at all, but it's a weak sequel. If you cut out the lame modern humor that breaks the immersion and the gross forced kiss, it really isn't so bad. That is, if you're in the mood for a ruined SW universe. TRoS is far, far worse.
No it's a bad movie. A very bad movie. Trying to pretend that a movie that spends 50% of it's runtime ON SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T MATTER AND ISN'T RELEVANT AT ALL BY CHOICE is not a bad movie is the ultimate cope.
We didn't need to see casino planet, nothing interesting happens on casino planet, the characters involved in casino planet suck and are boring.
The movie sucks fucking ass and Holdo is still a retard.

>>223755911
In fairness, casino planet was supposed to feature Lando instead of literally who, but scheduling conflicts made it fall through IIRC

>>223755984
>In fairness, casino planet was supposed to feature Lando instead of literally who, but scheduling conflicts made it fall through IIRC
That's not my problem though is it? Casino planet is still utter shit, they made a bad movie.

>>223755911
You sound like it's personal. It's just a movie, anon, a fairly good one. A great one even by today's standards.

>>223756244
>You sound like it's personal. It's just a movie, anon, a fairly good one. A great one even by today's standards.
No, no it is not. It never will be. Shitty subplots, awful writing, awful new characters, awful and stupid space leia scene, stupid character interactions, stupid lore additions, character assassinations for luke, kylo and finn, wasting the audience's time, boring preachy "messaging", unfunny humor, bad opening scene, killing luke in the stupidest way possible just to be a jackass.
Yoda was fun.

>>223756313
>killing luke in the stupidest way possible
It was kino. Hamill and you are wrong, which is ok. :^)

>>223756244
>A great one even by today's standards.
Get a load of this faggot

>>223754873
>Still posting this bait
Nope, Rian could have salvaged the trilogy with just a baseline level of storytelling competence. Saving it after Rian had his way with it... now that would have been remarkable.

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>>223755120
>It's not a bad film at all, but it's a weak sequel.
I don't get this take. TLJ isn't like Halloween III: Season of the Witch where you both can and ideally should view it as its own thing separate from the series it's named after. Season of the Witch is quite explicitly in its own continuity separate from the other Halloween movies. TLJ isn't only in the same canon as the other films, it's a direct sequel and the second film of a trilogy. If you watched it in a vacuum from everything else, you'd have no idea what the fuck is going on and nothing would make sense.

>>223755852
>everything he does in TLJ is him calling JJ’s bluff.
Was that what they were paying him for

>>223756313
Luke's death is the best part of the movie, you uncultured zoomer retard

>>223756372
It's ok you don't have to understand. Compartmentalization is a beautiful thing.

>>223755541
Did you actually see Ghost Obi-Wan inflict any damage or other physical effect on that log?
If not, he could have been merely posing himself that way, for Luke's benefit, without putting any weight on it

>>223756391
Ghosts in Star Wars can interact with the real world and need to eat and poop. Prove me wrong. Oh you can't, sorry.

>>223756401
Can confirm. Ghosts in Star Wars aren't immortal, they slowly fade due to dysentery. Incidentally, this is why Ghost Yoda can't solo the First Order. He'd gas out and get raped by an armored vehicle.

>>223756358
The Last Jedi is a better movie than any current one in theaters or streaming and everyone knows it.

>>223754873
rian johnson made this thread

>>223756390
>It's ok you don't have to understand.
I kinda do, anon. What I said doesn't just apply to worldbuilding and motivation, almost all of the movie's emotional beats are rooted in context established by previous movies too.

>>223756465
I get that. To me it's just fan-fiction. I might even buy a copy of TRoS because it's the closest we'll ever get to a Dark Empire film. It's a bad film for sure, but it has a certain comic book appeal if I'm being honest and if I'm in a certain mood. By no means do I count anything past 1983 as canon, make no mistake, but the prequels are good fun, as flawed as they were. I view those as flawed masterpieces. The sequels? Official shitposting is what they were, but like I said....

>>223755120
It's a bad story. It's supposed to be a movie that tells a story, and by that measure fails on every level. It fails as a self-contained narrative. It fails as a follow-up to JJ's empty nonsense ep7. It fails to develop a central conflict that sets up a finale movie. It fails at fitting in to the larger Star Wars saga. It fails to do any coherent world-building.

It's a complete failure of a story even before you take into consideration the actively hostile defacement and denigration of the franchise.

Subsentients are fooled, because most (though not all) scenes are well-executed seem like they are scenes from a good movie. But the sum total is completely retarded.

>>223755120
>TRoS is far, far worse.
Irrelevant really. The first two movies made it next to impossible to have a good 3rd entry. I never even bothered to watch it, it's just not part of the discussion for me.

>>223756553
The story is just fine, it's that the misplaced contemporary "yo' mama" joke has no place in SW, among other forced (ha) details.
You've convinced me to re-watch The Last Jedi tonight. Thank you, Anon.

>>223754873
Explain how JJ forced Johnson to start the movie with a your mom joke, or be flayed alive.

>>223756359
>Nope, Rian could have salvaged the trilogy with just a baseline level of storytelling competence. Saving it after Rian had his way with it... now that would have been remarkable.
Exactly. TLJ ruined two movies : itself and RoS.

>>223756244
If somebody filmed your actual, real suicide, now that would be a great movie by today's standards

>>223756595
No, it's an iredeemably bad story.

>>223756374
No, but he was working for the same woman who thought “Congo” was going to be the next Jurassic Park. If it were just a case of him working under dumb people, that’d be one thing, but to make the sort of decisions they’ve made, they’re soulless robots as well.

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>>223756539
You do you. To TROS's credit, it was the hardest I've ever laughed in a theater.
Which I usually don't do as a courtesy to others but this movie genuinely pulled it out of me, not in an "I'm going to force this to be a dick" way. The biggest moments you'll hear about are Rey's accidental Force lightning and Sheev's dubstep, but something I laughed at that I never see talked about is the scene just before the former, where Chewie gets "arrested." Something about it just looks very pedestrian, coupled with the fact that this happens right after we see a Knight of Ren going after Chewie with the confrontation happening offscreen, making the cut feel way more comedic than I'm sure they were going for.

>>223754873
Rian Johnson always struck me as a toddler in deformed adult body, in the way that he lacks object permanence.
>TFA ends with Rey finding Luke
>He's wearing his Jedi robes
>She holds out his father's lightsabre
>He has not seen it as far as we know since he lost his hand
>It gave Rey visions, some of Bespin and about Luke, but also voices talking specifically to her
>She followed a map, part of which was inside R2, and the presence of the other half woke him from sleep-mode
>If Luke did not set that up, someone else knew where he was this whole time
Johnson thinks it will be cool to subvert expectations, incapable of conceiving why those expectations had been set. Luke tosses the weapon, puts the robes away until he randomly decides he wants to stand around in them for no reason again, is asked no questions about the visions it gave Rey, and asks none about how she found it or him. He went there to die, and left a map, or someone did without his knowing and he's not worried about other unwanted good friends coming any moment. Rian Johnson apparently made requests to Abrams about the ending of TFA; the main one being swapping BB out for R2 because that makes more sense because he's Poe's droid. He did not raise any objections to Luke wearing his robes and standing in anticipation from a vantage point he could see the Falcon arriving.

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>>223756647

>>223754873
while JJ did contribute to shitting up star wars, trying to pretend all of TLJs problems is because of JJ is retarded, the best example being shit like Luke and Finn
>TFA makes it pretty clear Luke intentionally left a means for somebody to find him hence why the whole map plot
>TLJ decides that nah he actually totally never wanted to be found and just gave up hope on everything, also had the whole attempt to kill his cousing despite this never being implied before
>what little character arc Finn had in TFA was centered around him realizing he can't just run from his problems and he decides to go back to help his new friends
>for some fucking reason TLJ decides to entirely go back on this where he is running away again and has to learn to stand up for his friends, but in an even worse way since the entire pinnacle of him sacrificing himself for said friends gets ruined by Rians ocs asian lady
>tldr
all the faults of TLJ are primarily Rians own doing to the point he even contradicts TFA and while JJ also helped ruin the franchise trying to pass on blame for Rians fuck ups to him is retarded

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Basically every scene of TLJ fills me with rage, but the worst scene by far for me is not the one with flying Leia, or Luke trying to kill his nephew, or the yo mama joke, or anything involving Rose or Holdo.

It's a fairly short beat from near the end of the movie, where Leia and the Resistance are holed up on their base on the salt planet, and send a call for help, and nobody answers.
Some extra delivers a line about how
>They've heard us, but nobody's coming.
They actually spend two lines on that.

And... What? Nobody wants to help the Resistance? The First Order just lost their planet-killing base. They're a paper tiger led by an overly emotional manchild. Their power is imaginary. Nobody wants to stand up for them? Nobody in the entire galaxy that just overthrew the Emperor wants to stand up for their freedom? Nobody wants to take revenge on the First Order for blowing up Hosnia Prime? Not one planet? Not one ship? Not one person?
Why? Do they all crave the boot? Did they want to be ruled by the Empire 2.0, are they nostalgic for Palpatine? Is TLJ secretly a based "the Empire did nothing wrong" movie?
The movie ends with the 20 people in the Resistance escaping, and we're somehow supposed to feel hopeful about this ending, but what are they going to do now? Who are they going to for help? Is the galaxy of bootlicking cowards even worth trying to save?

The whole movie feels like Rian Johnson trolling the audience, but with this and killing Snoke he's trolling Disney too. He intentionally made the sequel to this film as difficult as possible to make. Where do you even go from this ending?

The answer is "nowhere", of course. This is why in the Rise, JJ doesn't even bother. He brings back Palpatine to solve the "we don't have a villain" problem and has barcrawling Lando "call in a few favors" and brings a huge fleet out of nowhere to solve "we have no heroes" problem. You have to respect this level of not giving a shit, not gonna lie.

>>223756647
>>223756664
Kek. Never watched it, but that is pretty funny.

>>223756613
>Anon projects yet again

It occurred to me a while ago that Rian could've had his cake and ate it too when it came to Snoke. Remember, most people weren't too invested in Snoke himself as a character, they just wanted to know where he came from and why he's in charge now.
TLJ could've gone for the Darth Plagueis reveal and then STILL had Kylo Ren kill him mid-bluff. Would've, if anything, heightened the shock of him being done away with abruptly--AND been funny because it'd then leave Plagueis 2-nil on getting backstabbed by his own protege.

>>223756685
And here’s the thing - if they hadn’t also fucked up the logistics of interstellar travel, they *could* have just said that nobody could reach them in time.

>>223754873
TFA apologists need the rope.

>>223754873
FU I liked it.

>>223756753
Yes, they could, but they didn't. It's on purpose. Rian Johnson did not want the Resistance to be abandoned, because of logistics, or distance, or because the First Order is jamming the signal. He wanted them to be abandoned, because the Galaxy gave up on goodness - and only hologram Luke's fight against the First Order and (maybe, I don't know) the "love conquers all" story of Finn and Rose can inspire the new generation of heroes. The broom boy will eventually bring down the First Order.
The problem with that is that it is completely retarded and paints everyone except the broom boy in the worst light possible, and makes me WANT the First Order to win. Kylo Ren clearly has the mandate from the masses. Why shouldn't he run the galaxy?

>>223756801
What a retard.

Let me guess, it's better than TPM

>>223756801
Based.
>>223756647
I can't remember how it was done, Chewie's arrest that is, because my theater's audience with the exception of me was filled with Boomer who drank 50oz cups of soda before they came, so they made 100 trips during the movie to the restrooms.
Honestly, I have no idea how 50% of the movie went and I've made no attempt to see it since.

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>>223756244
>a fairly good one

>"science fiction epic" starts with a "Yo mama" joke
I'll never get this hot take...even if this movie was named "STAR RANGERS: ESCAPE FROM THE EVIL GALACTIC KINGDOM" and had nothing to do with Star Wars, it would suck by every fucking measure.

>>223756933
Maybe re-read my post, then it'll make more sense to you.

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>>223756685
>Nobody wants to help the Resistance? The First Order just lost their planet-killing base. They're a paper tiger led by an overly emotional manchild. Their power is imaginary. Nobody wants to stand up for them? Nobody in the entire galaxy that just overthrew the Emperor wants to stand up for their freedom? Nobody wants to take revenge on the First Order for blowing up Hosnia Prime?
Obviously what's going on is that all the First Order's OTHER enemies are just building up their strength elsewhere. Why would they show up to pointlessly waste men and metal fighting Snoke(/Kylo Ren) in the open, in a convenient pitched battle with the Supremacy and all those ISDs, under the leadership of an ageing, incompetent, nepotistic failed politician, her obvious political appointee ballbusting admiral, and her gang of unproven nobodies?
Consider all of the things that Leia could've done BESIDES limping away from Snoke's fleet at sublight. Consider the stupidity of Holdo and the commissar-esque ruthlessness of Rose, who's also a rapist. Consider that when the battle moves from space to land, Leia's solution is to have them charge at the First Order, on rusty speeders, without weapons, a plan so terrible even her apparatchik Rose denounces it, and the Resistance are only saved from total extinction (instead achieving "near" extinction) by two deus ex machinas in a row, neither of which Leia could've accounted for.
By the time of the sequel trilogy, whatever brilliance Leia may have once possessed has been rotted away by age, hubris, the heartbreak of her failing marriage and loser son's betrayal, and her addiction to Space Meth. Consider how you'd feel serving under her if you not only knew that, but that she's the mother of the current Supreme Leader of the First Order.
TROS brilliantly understands this story beat by having the entire galaxy rally against the Sith with a massive prepared warfleet the second that bitch finally relinquishes her power and dies.

>>223757066
>TROS brilliantly understands this story beat by having the entire galaxy rally against the Sith with a massive prepared warfleet the second that bitch finally relinquishes her power and dies.
Kek this is my head cannon now, everyone was hoping Leia would bite it because she'd gone senile.

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>>223757046
If you have to explain that you were trying to be witty, it's not witty.

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>>223757172
>>223757066
TROS establishes they were gathered by Lando. Did he barge into Space CNN and send a galactic broadcast
>Ladies and gentlemen, she dead

>>223757204
>if I don't get it because my reading skills suck it's your fault!

oh.

>>223757172
>>223757222
Lando was laying the groundwork for the "It's just people" mega-fleet for long before the plot of TROS. After Leia, that bitch, went full BPDemon and took everything from his buddy Han in the divorce, he stopped trusting her and formed a better, smarter, parallel Resistance in the shadows while letting Palps/Snoke/Ren sweat about Leia's shitty public version and Luke. Once Leia got out of the way and he had a clear target (Exegol), Lando reminded us why men > women is a universal human truth that crosses racial (and species) lines, instantly crushing both the Sith Eternal and the First Order.

>>223757291
And then he possibly fucked his granddaughter

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>>223757066
>>223757172
>when Lando gets the hyperspace phone call from Leia at the end of TLJ

>>223755120
Except it is a bad movie and even self-contained the actions characters take don't make sense
>Poe is the second highest ranked military member there and is extremely well known and respected yet she refuses to tell him any plan at all which directly causes a mutiny
>Holdo's plan can be defeated by looking out of a window, yet everyone treats it like it's a brilliant idea
>Hyperspace kamikaze breaks the movie and the rest of the Star Wars universe
>Rose being able to catch up to Finn makes no sense, and on top of that, her "saving" him also makes no sense since it could've EASILY killed both of them, it leaves them both completely vulnerable to the fucking army that is right there, and on top of that leaves the rest of the republic people completely fucked now that their doors are broken, even with Luke showing up, Rose and Finn should've been killed
That's just 4 narrative issues that break the movie; there's way more narrative problems and a fuckload more technical ones like knives vanishing because of bad choreography

>>223757066
>>223757291
This is now my headcanon for why he isn't in the first two ST movies.

>>223756685
Yep. That is Rian literally doing the exact opposite of what any competent storyteller would have done for the middle entry. You need to be expanding the scope, raising the stakes, pivoting from a descent into the dark of winter to the promise of spring to come. The random kid showing force powers doesn't cut it.

Not only is Rian failing to do what he's supposed to (JJ also failed to build any foundations), he is actively closing off avenues to fix the problems. This forces subsequent authors to build from scratch(something that should never fucking happen for the 3rd entry in any trilogy, least of all Star Wars)

>>223756798
Blaming TLJ for not fixing the story is not TFA apology. You have no truth

>>223756798
the entire series died with the third act of tfa and then it did a nuclear holocaust in tlj followed by the final residual radioactive aftermath known as the tls, horrific shit given all the resources they had desu

>>223755092
Didn't Rian basically choose to crush all the mystery boxes?

>>223757780
>tls
What did he mean by this?

>>223756833
That’s exactly how I felt.

>>223755911
Rose's sister should have been a diplomat and their plot line should have been an adventure on a planet where they recruited a bunch of new allies to come to the aid of the resistance.

>>223756608
>THE MYSTERY BOX
>YOU SUBVERTED IT
>WE CAME

>>223757831
lolthe last skywalker or wahtevr the fuck that stemaing pile of dog shit is called

>>223756390
>>223756372
>I don't get this take.
They are retards who are either trolling disingenuously or have severely warped and damaged standards. This happens either due to brainwashing with postmodern marxist drivel (possibly several layers removed from the source) or from having an autistic fixation on some specific element of filmmaking while forgetting that the purpose of most movies (and definitely of the 2nd film in a Star Wars trilogy) is storytelling.

>>223757923
The Rise of Skywalker.
They did get lazy with the names too, I mean, every sequel starts with "The".
BRILLIANT! :D

>>223754873
The entire squeal trilogy plan was to pick hack directors who could fuck with SW royally and their insane rabid fans would do the dirty work to excuse their disastrous choices on social media. It ultimately failed and that was the point, to ruin the Arthurian legend of Star Wars forever, one of the last franchises for young men to feel like heroes.

>>223756705
Honestly it could have been neat if they'd played it as Kylo trying to assassinate him and then he just regenerates in front of them, or something along those lines. Even throw in a callback to Palpatine talking about him conquering death in ep 3 or something.
Then just have him order his guards to kill Kylo, then Rey jumps in to fight with him while Snoke leaves the throne room, then he's in Palpatine's place for ep 9. Easy.

>>223757944
i cant believe that shit was greenlit lmao

>>223754873
Close but no cigar. The problem is that Disney didn´t understand or never wanted to make SW in the first place. They never wanted to build over what was already there; they wanted to take from the already established IP to build their own thing.

Their movies are not so much of a follow up as they are the beginning of their own universe and as such they only replicated some shallow elements for the sake of brand recognition. The themes, the visual aesthetics, cinematography or narrative style, in short, all the things that made SW what it was, all the things that gave SW it´s identity were phased out. It´s time people accept Disney Wars is not SW, it never was and never will be. Let it go.

>>223757315
He does only show up at the end of RoS after she's well and truly dead. Fuck, this is canon now.

>>223757593
If Rian Johnson wasn't still seething about the movie's poor reception to this day I'd think he intentionally made the movie like this to throw a spanner in the works for Disney.

>>223757222
He did it the same way that Palpatine sent out his message to the galaxy meaning he got on Fortnite

>>223754873
it was Kathleen Kennedy having 3 directors and a thousand writers instead of trusting one person. I think Ben Affleck had a whole three movie plan but she wanted to be Ms. Hot Shot

>>223758012
>call your movie The Rise of Skywalker
>everyone with the name "Skywalker" is long dead
>name literally gets stolen at the last second by a usurper that nobody likes
It had to have been intentional. Watch them continue to explicitly call her "Rey Skywalker" for all their promos for the upcoming movies so they can pull some
>THE SKYWALKER SAGA CONTINUES
bullshit.

>>223758033
well at least he made that one religious Knives Out movie to make up for his sins

>>223755911
>50% of it's runtime ON SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T MATTER
More like 80%. Any time we go back to the Resistance fleet or the First Order it's just to go
>have they caught up yet?
>no? okay, keep pursuing them/fleeing at the exact same speed until we run out of space gas
while both Hux and Holdo tell everyone else to shut up and insist their respective plans are tactical genius.

>>223757323
>it leaves them both completely vulnerable to the fucking army that is right there
I can't remember if it's ever shown how they get back to the base, they're miles out and practically on the First Order's front lines staring down a dozen walkers.
Do they just run back while Luke distracts them for a couple of minutes, and nobody notices the obvious red footprints on the ground? I know black guys are supposed to be fast, but come on, that's a bit much.

>>223758077
EPISODE X
PALPATINE TRIUMPHANT

>>223758043
Kek

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>>223758168
>tfw the Palpatines outlived every single Skywalker but now it's just your boring cunt of a granddaughter and she won't even take the family name

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Look, all I'm saying is pregnant rey would fix all the problems

>>223758352
>the baby comes out
>it's cackling like Sheev
DIRECTED BY GEORGE LUCAS

>>223758345
EPISODE XI
HYPHENATION SUBLIMATION

>>223758367
And that would be a huge improvement. No one can prove me wrong.

>>223758345
Rey as a Sheev level villain might actually save the franchise

>>223758437
I'm agreeing with you anon, it'd be peak. Have a close up on the little babby as his eyes narrow and force lightning crackles between his pudgy fingertips, then the circle wipe to credits and the Star Wars theme.
Overnight rejuvenation of the franchise. Merchandise flies off shelves.

>>223758473
It would, but showing women be bad in any way is illegal I think.
So she is a full Palpatine! But she is also fully a Skywalker! And she's perfect, chuds.

>>223758473
Practically everything she does in the sequel trilogy broadcasts that she's going to have an eventual fall to the Dark Side. She's impetuous, constantly scared (at first) and later always angry, and she can overpower trained Force users just by getting mad.
Luke can see from the start that she's got no patience for the training, and unlike Yoda saying it to Luke in Empire where he then insists on being trained and becoming a Jedi, she just throws in the towel and leaves to go and fight Snoke and Kylo. Shit, she even uses force lightning to "kill" Chewie (but not really lol he was on another ship).
Everything was set up for her to fall and for Kylo to turn good in her place during TLJ's throne room scene, but we can't ever show Rey as having a fault so she just carries on like her normal boring self for the rest of the trilogy instead.

>>223755120
it's poop
just not diarrhea

>>223758596
Come on, anon, there's some chunks of corn too, it's not all detritus.

>>223755120
>opening battle is stupid with the dumb bombers and the x-wing space afterburner
>zero stakes on the subsequent space "battle" because the bad guys can't catch up and actively refuse to send out fighters or bombers despite the Resistance fleet having no fighter cover at all
>casino planet arc is completely pointless and retarded, from inciting incident to resolution
>Rey's "training" consists of her spending more time on the force phone to Kylo or looking at herself in the mirror than any actual training, then she gives up anyway
>Leia/Holdo/Poe scenes are utterly nonsensical and nothing in them matters
>Throne room confrontation is basically a series of gags and pratfalls
>lightspeed ram, enough said
>battle of not-hoth is completely pointless and the resistance go out solely to die, there's no chance of them winning and there's no evacuation plan they're meant to be buying time for like Hoth
>saved in the end by not one, but two deus ex machinas (the crystal things leading them to the hidden exit and Rey showing up at the last minute)
It's a bad, boring film, even taken out of the context of the trilogy. Things like the lame modern humor are just diarrhea icing on the shit cake.

>>223758749
-in your opinion.

>>223758775
Most of that's objective.The entire movie is a bunch of people standing around getting into out of place comical antics and achieving absolutely nothing all while trying to convey the weight of a serious movie.

>>223758015
>The problem is that Disney didn´t understand or never wanted to make SW in the first place. They never wanted to build over what was already there; they wanted to take from the already established IP to build their own thing.
The main issue with this take, is that it doesn't address how unbelievably bad the movies actually are at building ANYTHING. It's not just that they didn't understand Star Wars (true), it's that they didn't understand how to even make even one single movie trilogy much less a foundation for a cinematic universe of movies ALA the MCU.

TFA wasn't just a generic boilerplate Hollywood Hero's Journey movie with diversity hire protagonists and memberberries. It was a fundamentally empty concept that did almost nothing to properly establish the proper foundations you need to build a trilogy and cinematic Universe. You need characters, you need a coherent setting with stakes the characters are invested in, for a war story you should have a reason for the central conflict. The problem with TFA wasn't the mystery boxes, it was treating the main character as an audience-insert for a disney theme park thrill ride across every Star Wars trope, instead of telling a real story.

Look at the movie that kicked off the actual MCU: Iron Man (2008). A simple, straightforward, competently written Hero's Journey narrative establishing flawed superhero Tony Stark and laying a little groundwork to expand the setting later. The heroes win the day but are left with plenty of room to grow. There are hundreds of Hollywood movies that use templates like that. Disney uses them all the time (Moana, for example).

Kathleen Kennedy's Lucasfilm didn't, because they were incompetent.

>>223759002
I will agree that the dumbest part is Finn and Rose kissing while the bad guys are about to massacre all their friends, yes.

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>>223758015
>It´s time people accept Disney Wars is not SW
Yeah no shit, I haven't cared about Star Wars in a decade now. I don't post because I care about Star Wars, I post because I find Disney's screw-ups and completely unforced errors here so fascinating.
>as they are the beginning of their own universe
Just to reiterate, that's not the only problem. Apart from this being a completely stupid idea in the first place, nothing that JJ, Rian and Kathleen Kennedy did was effective at establishing their own universe.

Remember that Marvel obliterated Star Wars' position as most lucrative film franchise by:

1. Mining the vast library of pre-existing comic book ideas and adapting them, trying to give every fan a little something they wanted
2. Delivering safe, predictable, formulaic but otherwise competently-written stories and competently-produced movies. Good writers, good directors, good producers.

Kennedy's Lucasfilm did the exact opposite, and the market punished them severely:

1. Took the entire massive 20yrs library of extended universe material they had spent $4 billion dollars buying and set it on fire, treating the purchase as mostly as an empty brand logo and a handful of nostalgia triggers.
2. Delivered a weird "theme park ride" movie and a twitter retard's feminist masturbation

>>223759038
The entire "battle" scene (and I use the term very loosely) is pointless and only exists so the movie can go "hey remember Hoth?"
Poe takes everyone out in their shitty little speeders against AT-ATs (and the newer, dumber sequel AT-ATs) without any kind of plan or even any weapons, and halfway through Operation Drive Straight at the Bad Guys and Hope They Don't Shoot Us, he realizes that he's just getting everyone killed for nothing and tells them to turn around and go back.
Leia made a big deal about telling Poe to stop wasting people's lives pointlessly when he was doing objectively the right thing in destroying the ship that could wipe out the fleet in seconds, but now he's just committing mass suicide and she's like "go get 'em tiger" while she sits on her hands and waits to die with everyone else.
There's no plan, there's not even any point in them sallying forth to attack the First Order instead of confronting them in the bunker or fleeing across the surface of the planet. The entire scene, and the movie by extension, only works if we assume every character is functionally retarded.

>>223755092
>Rian could have done anything
Yet he chose to SuBvErT eXpEcTaTiOns

>>223758077
i think they made the movie using a magic eight ball, just kept shaking that shit while making decisions along the way

>>223757792
Yes. He made the movie with the mentality of a baby throwing his toys out of the pram.

>>223759430
"should we give Finn any closure or growth as a character?"
>outlook not so good
"...should we give any of the characters any closure or growth?"
>very doubtful

>>223759395
Well yeah, women were in change. I don't dislike women at all, but there's certain concepts that escape them, battles and war being among them. I see the irony that wars are not good things, but yes, this is about a spacey war fantasy.

>>223759528
That's on Rian Johnson. Kathleen Kennedy wasn't micromanaging him on how to write the Battle of Crait (note: KK letting RJ do whatever he wants is part of why she's a retard).

>>223759756
Wait, we're counting Rian as a man?

>>223759773
*high fives you and does this*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0536Bkn8UK8

My point is, and I am not trolling, is that I find TLJ to be quite enjoyable, so long as it's not a part of SW canon and it isn't. It's a neat space film that does a half-assed SW impression.

Space Raiders is way more Star Wars-like and it's supposed to be a cynical joke of a film.

>>223759798
I don't watch Family Guy anymore, but I must admit that was funny and will always be funny.

>>223759476
say what you want about boyega, but that is probably the biggest fuck up for a chracter ive ever seen, very interesting premise that went absolutely nowhere, the premise was intersing enough that you could literally have him solo the whole series, fight kylo in the end yadda yadda, would of been very epic, seeing his arc

>>223759884
The director of VII and IX couldn't resist making a black man look bad--to get at whitey.
This is what happened and it's just hilarious because it's so surreal.
We'd been waiting forever and we got...this.

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So for all the time between TLJ and TROS (about a year in-universe IIRC), was Kylo Ren, as Supreme Leader of the First Order, having to do business meetings and negotiations with those Canto Bight high-rollers whom we're directly told are supplying both sides with weapons and are implicitly (in Rian's lol subversive framing, via Rose Thicco) the REAL big bad villains of the galaxy?
That's just really funny to imagine. Is Kylo Ren himself aware that the Resistance buy weapons from them? What happens if he tardrages and breaks a CEO's neck? Did he just conquer Canto Bight and seize all their factories offscreen? Or was he still just "a client"?
I like the implication that the First Order would've lost all their gear and logistics the second a stray blaster bolt scratched some nepobaby's car.

>>223760009
>Did he just conquer Canto Bight and seize all their factories offscreen?
Couldn't have done, or the Resistance would have no weapons and ships in TROS.

>>223759806
I have fairly low opinions of people who find TLJ enjoyable. Means you aren't really paying attention of the story being told.

>>223760104
So? You probably voted for Trump.

>>223755220
>Like Yoda's force ghost being able to cast lightning
I really have forgotten almost every detail of these movies other than the big overarching plot. I can't place that scene in any movie. I would have previously SOI'd out over Yoda fucking shit up.
If Disney was going to retcon the movies (doubt) the window to do so is starting. I've already forgotten the sequels, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

>>223755441
Another point is in LOTR ghost pirates saved the big battle with Aragorn leading them.
I understand that's mostly a movie thing.

>>223754873
that's not true at all. what's wrong with this movie is that the label star wars is on the can but the content is not star wars. rj didnt understand what the heart and soul of the franchise is

>>223755541
>Sitting on a rotted definitely causes damage.
you cannot prove that the force ghost interacted with the tree physically in anyway
>b-but he's sitting right on it
that might just be a visual thing

>>223760524
Filmically, you may be perfectly right, but I reside with a poltergeist which is nothing but an invisible human that interacts with its (my) environment, so you see how my perception is colored to believed that Obi-Wan's specter does influence the real world, and afterall (it is one word, fuck the ME and idiots) Luke was a part of that real world, thus.

>>223757291
>>223757305
Holy fuckin' based

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>>223758162
NEVER doubt Gout Gout again like that. Put some RESPEK on his name.

>>223760813
Don't forget, he's rolling a Vietnamese BBW like Mario with the watermelon in that one Sunshine mission.

>>223760813
Why why is is this this black black guy guy named named after after my my disease disease?

>>223759884
its actually insane how bad they fucked up, they literally couldn't have taken a worse direction, completely boofed by the end of the first film, the entire series could be reduced to "ouu shiny, i wonder what it does, woaah, i wiin"

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>>223760857
Get Australian teenager Gout Gout's name out of your mouth you peasant. RESPEK!

Yes OP. You are exactly right.
FUCK JJ.
He also ruined Star Trek with his first Trek movie
>Blows up fucking Romulus

>>223758125
>More like 80%. Any time we go back to the Resistance fleet or the First Order it's just to go
I'm always trying to be charitable so someone doesn't go "nuh uh" the hyperspeed chase is good though. I don't want to argue at all about the dumbest pursuit scene in all of fiction, it makes my head hurt. You'll also note I shrunk it down to "holdo is a retard" for that reason.
You're right though.

>>223754873
>the man who chose to fly in the face of three movies and ignore common sense was totally constrained by one movie
Bullshit

>>223759918
It's almost like they put him in ep 7 just to try and upset the fans, coupled with his big sweaty face being the first thing you see in the teaser, but then the fans went
>oh this guy's got some potential as a character, we don't even really care that he's a nigger
they went "fuck you now we're making him a complete joke for the next two movies".

>>223762168
Pretty much.

>>223760009
I just realized, what if this is the reason why the First Order only send out Kylo and two or three TIE fighters during the chase scene? Maybe they blew all their credit on the big gun ship from the start and the retarded walkers and "battering ram cannon" and now Hux is like
>kylo I just got our creditors on the line, we literally can't afford any more TIEs, get the fuck back here
Also this stupid war profiteering retcon is retarded because we already know the Mon Cals build their own starships and fighters and they exclusively supply the Rebels.
Then again, maybe they got rich after the galactic civil war and that's why they have to use the ghetto bombers instead of just a flight of B-wings at the start.

>>223762217
You understand that you are putting way more thought into this than the writers, ja?

>>223761720
Anyone trying to argue that the slowest chase scene in cinematic history is "good" is a fucking liar. We already know that Imperial/FO ships have dozens of TIEs on board, they have easily a dozen capital ships not counting Snoke's Super Duper Star Destroyer which is like five to ten times the size of the Executor, and they know for a fact that the Resistance fleet has literally zero starfighters of their own thanks to Kylo blowing up their hangars within seconds of their arrival.
They don't even need bombers, we see a single TIE blow out the bridge of the Rebel flagship and kill their entire command staff aside from Leia and Holdo.
But no, we've got to sit there and watch absolutely nothing happen for an hour while the First Order ships fire on the fleet with a single curvy laser until they run out of gas.

>>223762168
In 2014 there was no reason to think having a black movie star would be at all controversial

>>223762301
Look that's all true but it's so needless to break that down, the very clear problem is that rian johnson did not know anything about warfare at all and didn't understand why his ideas are insultingly stupid. It's why I don't respect anyone who likes the TLJ at all, none of the movie makes any sense to begin with, that's before you get to the many many other flaws.
When he turned in his script the people who read it should taken him out back behind the studio to find a nice porta potty to drown him in, but they didn't.

>>223762238
I know, but it's entertaining also maddening to realize just how little thought went into any of the trilogy movies and how inconsistent they are.
Side note, everyone likes to point to the hyperspace ram as the point where hyperspace was broken, but every Disney movie (except maybe Mando, I haven't seen it) breaks the established rules of hyperspace.
>Force Awakens
The Falcon can somehow break through Starkiller Base's planetary shield while in hyperspace, and also isn't forcibly pulled out by its gravitational field.
>Rogue One
The characters jump to hyperspace almost immediately after takeoff, in atmosphere, while being literally surrounded by rock.
>Last Jedi
Yeah we already know this one
>Solo
The Falcon jumps to hyperspace within the event horizon of a black hole, which should be fucking impossible even by Star Wars physics.
>Rise of Skywalker
The opening scene with the Falcon (this is becoming a theme) basically playing hyperspace hopscotch through several atmospheric biomes, and the entire good guy fleet turning up on Exegol at the end despite the movie already establishing that the storms covering the planet needed to be navigated manually. At this point hyperspace is basically teleportation, who fucking cares.

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>>223756685

Yes, Rian writing the galaxy into a corner where "nobody answers the call" is a disaster.

Compare this to the middle film of the prequels, Attack of the Clones

OP makes a fair point about TLJ leaving Episode IX with zero narrative momentum, but comparing the middle entries of the Prequels vs Sequels shows an absolute absurd difference in worldbuilding and scope. It’s practically comparing apples to oranges.
By the end of Attack of the Clones (Movie #2), Lucas had set up:
The start of a galaxy-wide war (The Clone Wars) with two massive, established factions (Republic Clones vs Separatist Droid Army).
A mystery around Count Dooku, Sifo-Dyas, and the secret creation of the clone army.
Anakin’s forbidden marriage to Padmé and his rapid descent toward the Dark Side (slaughtering the Tusken Raiders, losing his arm, harboring rage).
Palpatine securing emergency powers and taking control of the Senate right under the Jedi's noses.
The foreshadowing of the Death Star plans being handed off to Dooku/Sidious.
Compare that to the end of The Last Jedi (Movie #2):
Snoke is dead.
The Supreme Leader is now Kylo Ren, a guy who already lost to Rey in movie #1 and spent movie #2 getting humiliated by Luke’s projection.
The Resistance is literally reduced to ~20 people on the Millennium Falcon.
The entire galaxy refused to help.
No new major political factions, no war, no looming mystery—just a total narrative dead end.
George Lucas used his middle movie to expand the universe, multiply the stakes, and set up a tragic, unavoidable climax for Episode III. Rian Johnson used his middle movie to prune the entire universe down to a bare stump and tell the audience "the past must die," leaving JJ Abrams with literally nothing to build on except bringing Palpatine back out of nowhere.
AOTC might have awkward dialogue, but in terms of narrative momentum and scale, it does what a middle entry in a trilogy is actually supposed to do.

>>223762383
>>Rogue One
>The characters jump to hyperspace almost immediately after takeoff, in atmosphere, while being literally surrounded by rock.

Ha. To be fair that film is just as bad as TLJ if not worse. The ending was stupidly frustrating too. They killed themselves needlessly. Just get a ship and leave!

>>Solo
>The Falcon jumps to hyperspace within the event horizon of a black hole, which should be fucking impossible even by Star Wars physics.

I respect your SW fandom for even knowing this, but I love Solo, I really do. It's not perfect and I'm working off and on to edit it more to our kind of sort's liking.

>>Rise of Skywalker
To be fair, Boomers with no bladder control prevented me from knowing anymore than 50% of that, although what I was allowed to see was horrific.

>and the entire good guy fleet turning up on Exegol at the end despite the movie already establishing that the storms covering the planet needed to be navigated manually. At this point hyperspace is basically teleportation, who fucking cares.

I back you up 100% because I remember that nonsense. It was too busy. They literally had the kitchen sink somewhere in there I swear. Women. lol

>>223762409
>AOTC might have awkward dialogue, but in terms of narrative momentum and scale, it does what a middle entry in a trilogy is actually supposed to do.

It's cool, but it doesn't need to be viewed to understand Episode III, which is a shame. Watch Episode I and then III, you'll see what I mean.

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>make it a plot point that the arms dealers on the Casino planet sell to both sides
>but the new republic demilitarized
>and got immediatly crushed
>and the resistence is an underfunded joke
so where is the "both" sides part in this exactly?

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>>223762452
>To be fair that film is just as bad as TLJ if not worse.
I'm 100% with you there anon, it's shit. Tried to watch it again recently and I just found myself skipping over parts. Nothing but half-assed nostalgia bait, although I did like Krennic.
>I love Solo, I really do
I still maintain it's the least bad of the Disney movies, but that's not really a high bar to clear. If you could take out all the dumb "did you ever wonder how..." moments, the girlboss fembot and change Enfys Nest's name to something less ridiculous even the characters point out that it's a stupid name, kek it'd be a potentially good movie.
>They literally had the kitchen sink somewhere in there I swear
It's not like you'd be able to tell. Just look at this shit, they may as well have got an AI to make it.

>>223757792
yes, which was a good thing
but instead of having anything to replace them, he left nothing, which is almost just as bad
both abrams and johnson were horrible picks for star wars, and disney has been paying for it since 2017

>>223762620
That picture looks like random space junk. I hate it. As for Solo, when I finally get around to it, my edit will probably gain it a few fans, although there isn't too much I want to do with it. For one, the Imperial March being in the film in the meta way is awful, so that's out. I consider what I'm doing is just what the real editor or editors would have done if they were given enough time, or leeway.

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>>223762620
Seriously. This just looks like the cinematic equivalent of white noise.
>>223762611
>but the new republic demilitarized
Man I completely forgot about that, kek. What a lazy cop-out that was.
>death star II gets blown up
>about six months later the rebels beat the entire empire on Jakku for some reason
>new republic disarms unilaterally right afterwards (hutts and other crime lords rejoice), no more star wars anywhere for 40 years

>>223762653
Is that shot in the movie too? That looks even worse. Impressive.

>>223762651
Sounds good, anon. I'll give it a look if you get around to finishing it.

>>223762663
It's off Wookiepedia, so I assume it was. I've only sat through RoS once, and I was borderline blackout drunk by this point because it was the only way I could deal with it.

>>223762653
the new republic was morally correct to demilitarize in the face of the big bad first order, those meanies
so what if it makes the alliance look like total retards

>>223762611
Germany and Japan were demilitarized at the end of world war II, and yet by 1955 they found themselves buying tanks and bombs and guns from factory owners. It would have been an extreme scandal if those factory owners were also selling to a hypothetical neo-fascist movement.

>>223762664
Oh I will, but first I'm getting The Return of the Living Dead full original tracks restoration done in time for Halloween, then I'm restoring something else, then Solo. The something else is a whopper and I don't know how long it will take. It's brutal. I just realized that it's so brutal I may as well tackle Solo at the same time, during breaks. After those three I'm quitting for a while.

>>223762687
Yeah, but Germany and Japan lost. This would be like America dropping the bombs and the Soviets taking Berlin and then both countries going
>throw all our guns and tanks into the sun, no wars forever yaaaay
and then acting surprised when North Korea decided to blow up every capital city in America at once in 1985.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSVrYVJ6aTY
I'm watching this shit and I don't even get what the fuck is going on. They fly through the red shit which is supposedly surrounding the Sith planet, but then they have to hyperspace again just to appear on the planet?
Also how do the First Order guys know that Rey's in the X-wing? add that to the list of shit she stole from Luke kek

RJ trilogy when tho?

>>223762238
Sure, but worldbuilding is fun. The fact that there are people who will think about this stuff purely for the love of the game just goes to show how hard Disney fumbled in hiring people who are completely disinterested in the in-universe side of Star Wars.

>>223762383
>The Falcon can somehow break through Starkiller Base's planetary shield while in hyperspace, and also isn't forcibly pulled out by its gravitational field.
I like how this established that Han Solo can press the button to leave hyperspace at the exact moment the Falcon is somewhere between Starkiller Base's orbital shield and its actual ground level while his ship is moving at quadrillions of times+ lightspeed, putting his reaction times on par with a DBS villain.
Why do Star Wars powerscalers never mention this?

>>223754873
women ruined star wars. stop hiring women.

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>>223762611
The New Republic didn't demilitarize because Kino Casino chose to limit their business with them, they demilitarized as an entirely unforced error vaguely rooted in pacifism and "Not being like the Empire" even as Leia was sounding the alarm bells about the First Order AND as the pre-FO Empire remnants were already rampaging around killing people (see: the Mando/Grogu era). "The Resistance" (which was called that even prior to the New Republic's destruction, for this reason) due to the NR's policies had to buy arms while acting entirely separate from the NR military proper as Leia's own private army, so I guess she made the deal with Kino Casino.
Within the framing of the moral point that Rian Johnson uses the snake guy and later Rose to make ("We can't win by fighting what we hate"), this makes Leia a just-as-bad fascist by the film's own logic and the only people who "won" the galactic war were the NR politicians instakilled by Starkiller Base in TFA. Because when you buy weapons from the only source available to kill your enemies... your enemies win.

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They could have just ripped off kotor and it woulda been a better trilogy

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>>223755092
So how do you explain Luke choosing to abandon his friends and family instead of kicking Kylo Ren's ass?

After Kylo's little melty Luke runs away to spend the rest of his life on a deserted rock like a miserable old coward.

Luke could've got his ass off that rock anytime and gone after Kylo. He didn't.

Even if he didn't want to be a Jedi anymore he could've come back to support Leia and maybe help patch things up between her and Han since they'd both now lost their son to the dark side. He didn't.

Luke didn't do fucking shit. He just stayed on that island for god knows how many years before Rey turned up.

This is what JJ intentionally sets up in the first movie. He creates a story that turns Luke into a massive fucking failure. And he does it in a way that makes Luke STAY a failure by choice. How do you retcon your way out of that?

Then JJ just takes an even bigger shit on the script right at the end by leaving Rey standing there like a fucking idiot holding out this lightsaber to Luke that he OBVIOUSLY doesn't give a rats ass about. Because otherwise he would've come got it, right?

I mean if Luke gave a single fuck about that lightsaber he would've gone picked it up from Maz Kanata years ago. It's not like he got to the island and was like "FUCK I forgot my lightsaber." The guy was DONE being a jedi. DONE being a hero. He was just DONE. Because JJ FUCKED HIM.

Now imagine you've just been hired to write and direct the second movie. In all seriousness how do you write your way out of that? How do you unfuck Luke?

>Luke grabs the lightsaber and triumphantly declares to Rey "Gee thanks whoever you are! Now I can finally go kick Kylo's ass!"

I'm joking of course because that scene would make no sense. Yet I suspect this is what fanboys actually wanted to see. And if their media literacy is truly that bad then they're simply too stupid to comprehend how JJ left Rian Johnson in a no-win situation.