what is the essence of the stealth genre

>>722899278
idk maybe make it where you are playing a guy who has to go undercover as a criminal in order to infiltrate a terrorist organization and you are forced to play both sides as a double agent.

focusing purely on stealth (none of that Hybrid/panther shit)
good level design
cool gadgets
smart AI

no I don't care about the story, SC's stories are either "USA good, foreign powers BAD" or (in the later half) "USA... le bad?"

Most stealth games don't udnerstand that stealth games are by extention, puzzle games and fail to account for that.

I often think that good stealth like shadow intensity based kind implemented by such games like Splinter Cell & Thief may never return with raytraced lighting destroying the idea of it. Is it even possible to do it now? maybe the advancements went too far that dynamic lighting based detection cannot be properly implemented anymore.

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>>722899375
you're not gonna friggin believe this anon...

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>>722899278
The entire stealth "genre" is just
>wait for them to walk their route
>follow behind them on their route
Has any game innovated on it in the last 20 years?

>>722899278
jack the ripper simulator

>>722899337
id say puzzle, adaption, and tools.
Puzzle for the objective of doing the thing without being seen and how creative the setup is.
Adaption for the margin for mistake and how the player and AI can mold to the new conditions (where I think stealth mostly fails, nowadays adaption is just throwing stealth out the window, and go full action, next room resets stealth).
Tools is whay is there to allow both the puzzle and adaption be interesting, be it light and sound meters, be it actual gear and gadgets, be it movement or limit of movement (cool that you can climb everything but no need to become a spider like in Blacklist).

>>722899554
Some people wouldn't like the idea of unpredictable AI. Not that I don't think it's a good idea, but developers aren't even capable of doing that today anyway. There's been no major breakthroughs in AI that will allow the whole experience to unpredictable.

>>722899278
Stealth at least partially relies on unstated puzzles, so it's important to design the game around mouse and keyboard.
Clicking on things to interact with them will always be less easily identified as a puzzle than hovering near the orange highlighted object until the button prompt for it shows up.

>>722899554
Thief 1 and 2 were innovative back then with their audio system, you could hear where guards were in a room just based off their footsteps even if you were in another room. It's kinda goofy that everyone is wearing loud as fuck tapshoes so you can hear the footsteps better but it works and it's cool, I dont think another stealth game has focused as much on audio.

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>>722899278
I think stealth is just a cursed genre that cannot ever really be truly good, because it is inherently about exploiting the perception of an AI that NEEDS to be severely limited in its perception to even make moving around the levels possible, otherwise you'd be seen in the corners of their fov all the time, and if they did have human like perception there would be no way to intuitively parse how far they can see. so at the end of the day stealth will always just be about exploiting limitations of a dumb ai, because making it smarter would make the games unplayable. it's also the genre where you're most aware of the fact that you're exploiting the ai, whereas in other genres due to properties other than a binary being noticed/not being noticed the whole thing becomes more nebulous. you could make more mgs5 or more chaos theory, but I don't think you'll ever be able to improve upon their foundation.

I think a roguelite (or like, whatever) would be great for getting normies into deep stealth again.
Having longer standing debuffs and buffs from area to area, like enemies on alert or in panic, adapting with gear to you or being affected by previous sabotage, player damage staying and limiting things or improving with gear found, vaired security systems to adapt and improvise, etc...
I think it would be a cool way to introduce deeper stealth mechanics into a digestible game

>>722899278
Something like The Dark Mod but for Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. Just let people go crazy with custom missions.

>>722899991
yes, but I disagree. You can have deep AI and be predictable in its varied states. Its why sound and light meters worked so well. Now you simply have the shittiest line of sight and it sucks ass, back then you knew if you were above a certain light value you could quickly be seen but just for a spook reaction, the AI would still have to invistigate, above another light value it would be an actual identification.
You dont need (or want) realistic AI, but you want it to be dynamic and have the methods to know what to expect. A reaction to seeing the player (alarm and attack) can be very different from seeing a dead body (alarm and barricade), or seeing an inconscious body (alert state, wake up the guy and patrol harder), yet all be very predictable

Some upcoming games to add to your Wishlist. When they release? I do not know. They won't ever compete with Chaos Theory. But if you need something to look forward in a rather pretty barren market:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3290690/Styx_Blades_of_Greed/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2857810/Sleight_of_Hand/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2889030/MUDANG_Two_Hearts/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3285390/Project_KVASIR/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3674590/Noirmancer/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2642850/Serpens_Eternal_Thievery/

The reality is that not much is releasing anymore, nobody makes them. Not even indie developers.

>>722900346
nice

>>722899278
It's insane how Metal Gear Solid 2/3 are still the best stealth game on the market. Only Kojima understood the "fun" aspect of realism. In MGS2, you don't have to walk slowly because le realism. The game design uses floors to provide variety. You can simply run up to enemies, kill them, walk like a ninja, etc and only need to worry about walking slowly when walking on specific floor tiles.

And even MGS2/3 doesn't surpass the OG thief game.

>>722901404
Tenchu is better for moving fast and being a ninja. And verticality. And variety in abilities.

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I played like every Splinter Cell game and loved them, but Kojima is the last guy to make decent stealth in modern games. MGSV and Death Stranding have legit stealth mechanics that are fun and engaging and constantly build on themselves. In Death Stranding for instance, you keep getting new gadgets the more you progress, because at first you seem unable to prevent getting caught (unless you carry nothing) but it builds into reverse pinging their radar, holograms, smoke grenades, fake suitcases with knockout gas, and killing someone actually has ramifications so there's a strategy to not just mercing everyone like in MGSV

>>722901974
>MGSV
Poser detected. Nothing in MGS5 is more advanced or fun to play than it's predecessors. The guards literally have builtin logic that cheats to find your location, they don't clear rooms like they used to do in MGS2, any alert caused by you, trigger a scripted routine sequence for the soldiers, they will literally run towards nowhere because they are hardcoded to do that. Alerts lasts way too long, without any reason.

The level design is dogshit, AI is dogshit.

>>722902162
Everything in MGS5 is half baked.

>>722902162
It's unfinished and unpolished but still manages to be a better stealth game than anything in the last 15 years...yes MGS2 is a better stealth action game because it's not trying to be open world..but the options you have as far as companions and loadouts and open ended approaches isn't something in any other game since unless it's Death Stranding 1 or 2

>>722902436
>still manages to be a better stealth game
I hate chaos theory and even that is better Phantom Pain. MGS3 was a downgrade from 2 in terms of everything, but the graphics, 4 was the same, and 5 is utter dogshit.
Death stranding also comes under MGS5 open world meme. I don't care how good it looks, or what mechanics you have, when the level design itself is just a big open height mapped terrain.
Anybody who thinks MGS5 is a good "stealth" game is retarded. I would argue even MGS1 handles stealth better than 5. And the VR missions even surpasses MGS2/3 in some cases. Why? Because of good level design and enemy AI.

>>722902624
the concept of "aproach from wherever you want" is complete ass for game design, you have to be really fucking good to pull it off once let alone an entire game around it. Specific entry points and linear level design is so much better. You can still have paths and an open feeling like Thief but make each location tight and be able to be interesting by itself, not just a big base and treat it as just one location and set

>>722901575
i miss tenchu so much

>>722902624
>>722902956
Y'all can't name a game that wasn't created before Zoomers came to earth, yeah old games are good but sorry if we want to enjoy shit from this millennium

>>722901575
Tenchu gets so overlooked. Tenchu, MGS and Thief all came out in 1998 but only MGS and Thief get the love for stealth. Tenchu had everything MGS had and more.

>>722904581
I recently played through MGS yesterday. And the lighting in that game was so good, they literally used the same scheme 1:1 with high poly models in MGS2/3.

>>722902162
>The guards literally have builtin logic that cheats to find your location
What the fuck are you talking about? If you fire a shot or get spotted somewhere and then move to a different place, the guards will investigate your last known location. It's extremely fair and pretty forgiving if anything

>>722904827
You can try it for yourself. Choose a hostage mission, pick up the hostage, get seen from a far away enemy on a tower, while the tower enemy is climbing down, run away and go hide in a house on the outskirts of the designated area. Enemies will start searching, and you will two soldiers running straight towards the house you are in, while ignoring every single building in their vicinity.

>>722902956
>Specific entry points and linear level design is so much better
Not inherently. Linear vs nonlinear isn't important. What's important is that the provided paths force the player to take risks, but also allows enough creativity to have some replay value. Nonlinear levels inherently have the latter, linear levels actually do not inherently have the former

The Byarkhov Bomb in Hitman Contracts is the most linear level in the game, and it's also probably the worst level in the game because it's completely uninteresting. There's no risk in the proscribed path you're supposed to take, nor is there any way you can vary it up to make it more interesting

>>722899554
literally just copy thief, light bar and everything, makes stealth more gamey and less obtuse

>>722906702
>shitman contracts
lmao, just because a game has a linear level doesn't mean it's well designed

>>722906702
I agree, maybe I explained wrong.
I said specific entry points in the way that the dev can somewhat drive the player into a handfull on choices (as setup, not the total experience) instead of the massive open endness of a Far Cry or MGS5 where there are very few limitations so you never get yourself into more interesting moments since all of the experience easily becomes a heavy blur, either you silent snipe all the time, or any wall is climbable so there are no longer any actual points of entry, etc... Even a game like Thief you have to choose, either the front door, the back door, the window or the sewer... the pacing of those paths is much better structured, each having its own quirk, rather than such a vague concept like every angle of the level being a possible path.
Extreme linearity can suck if its very evident. Chaos Theory doesnt have that much replay value and it shows.

>>722899278
Banish the term 'immersive sim' so that everything can get back on track.

>>722907145
The open world really doesn't have any effect on anything though. MGS5 still has specific entry points for basically all outposts except for like Kiziba Camp, I guess. You ability to approach from any angle only exists on paper but is in practice never the case because of the terrain, the design of the area you're infiltrating or the guard patterns
You could have a building sitting the middle of a completely flat plane with no guards around and there's still specific entry points if there's only one door into that building

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>>722904581
>but only MGS and Thief get the love for stealth.
And of those two, MGS is only 25% gameplay and only 60% of that 25% is stealth. Almost half of the actual videogame part of the game is taken by forced and unavoidable combat sections and boss fights where the player character just ignores the player's stealth orders and walks into plain view of the enemy. It is literally insane that the Metal Gear series has ever been considered part of the stealth genre. It's like Schrödinger's dishonest stealth. It's a stealth game, until someone rightfully points out that it isn't, and then it predictably is Tactical Espionage Action all the way until the person who's RIGHT has gone away and you can start lying about it being a stealth game again.
I guess that's just the meta brilliance of Kojima though isn't it? The quantum videogame. It's only a game and it's only a stealth game when unobserved. But when you measure it, it's a bad movie, and doesn't have sneaking.

>>722899278
how are those goblin games? styx or something

>>722900346
>>722901252
I forgot to mention that Thief is getting that VR game, only one I missed. I'm just hoping it turns out actually good. Dice roll on whether VR devs can actually make a good immersive sim stealth game in VR.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2800080/Thief_VR_Legacy_of_Shadow/

Otherwise, that's everything releasing for stealth games in the foreseeable future. I'm not holding my breath on the Splinter Cell remake anymore. It's just been too quiet for too long.

>>722909162
Nah, I'm still holding out for Gloomwood's full release. Looks like a really cool game so far. Hell even if it gets abandoned, seems like there's enough content already to have some fun with it

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>>722908991
Styx is good but the games suffer from two problems.
-Half the game consists of re-visits to levels from the first half, just with different enemy patrols
-There is literally zero information on where the main objective is. No readables, no conversations you can eavesdrop on, nothing. The game relies entirely on the ever-present Skyrim-arrow that points towards where you need to go, and you can't even use logic to deduce where the objective might be based on context, because the level geometry is abstract instead of practically logical architecture for human use.
There are also some pointless unnecessary boss fights but at least they use stealth

>>722899278
Realistic audio, if you don't have a sound card you should miss half the game experience, footprints
Random guard movements like coughing, sneezing, head scratching
Stalker AI where there's a NPC on his way to your ass at all times getting closer the more clumsy you are.
Make gunplay more complex (MGS2 or MGS3, receiver level autism) that point and click or worse yet, hold a button to home in your laser guided briefcase
>>722905058
Simultaneously the retarded AI will decide to shoot over a decoy you threw while actively being shot at over the real you for some reason.
>>722908991
Level design is unplayable without markers, some of the abilities are fun to fuck around with.
Genuine dementia or acid trip levels, 2nd game has even shittier level design that they lampshade with epic 4th wall quips, played the demo and uninstalled when I heard styx quip.

>>722909753
At least they included a setting in the second game to disable 4th wall quips

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>>722907936
MGS1 definitely spends a bit too much of its playtime on action setpieces. MGS2, 3 and 4 are 90% stealth 10% action, and MGS5 has a sandbox that you can spend dozens and dozens of hours in, enjoying basically uninterrupted stealth. All the games have skippable cutscenes btw

Sorry that MGS overshadowed your favorite series but there's no need to seethe and make shit up

>>722909862
Maybe in the 3rd game they'll add an option to enable real level design.

I think there should be a game where the idea is that you are going to get automatically discovered during the course of each objective, and that you can't reset the alerted state after it happens. Your goal until that point is to mitigate the consequences of it happening.
The most exciting and tense part of any stealth game is always when you get caught, but practically all of these games encourage you to save scum if you get caught. If you're going to get caught regardless, it'd go a long way to making the genre feel less like a series timing puzzles

>>722909906
Not only is it unnecessary to compare MGS to Thief because they're different genres, but the more important comparison for 1998 is MGS versus Half-Life.
In 1998, two games attempted to use the elements of movies to augment a videogaming experience. The experiments were successful, and semi-successful, and the result made videogames as a whole worse overall.
Metal Gear Solid attempted to be more like an action movie by taking away interactivity and focusing on cutscenes, conversations and hamfisted tell-don't-show and as-you-know exposition. Only about a quarter of a playthrough is interactive. More like playback instead of a playthrough. And more like an essay than a screenplay, because the only reason the product exists is that the creator was not talented enough to manage in the movie industry and videogames had a lower standard of storytelling.
Half-Life attempted to be more like an action movie by adding intricately scripted cinematic setpieces into level design, using approach-based framing, lighting manipulation and visual and audio cues, without sacrificing any interactivity, so that a game could achieve some of the qualities of movies without ever being any less of a game. It's hard to do because you need to basically manage a cinematic experience without direct communication with the director and the camera man.
The way MGS did it ended up being adopted as the industry standard and the way Half-Life did it was only partially adopted because it's harder to do. MGS and more importantly the bad taste of its fans made all AAA videogames worse going forward. MGS isn't bad because Thief is a better game, it's bad because every high-budget game we have is now worse because it sold well despite being less of a game than the average videogame.

>>722910147
I agree. The gameplay works just fine, but their levels have never resembled actual places where humans or other creatures could live and work.

>>722910613
I love MGS but you speak truth.

>>722908991
the first game is fantastic. play that and then consider if you're interested in another game like it.

>>722909597
>Half the game consists of re-visits to levels from the first half, just with different enemy patrols
except this is a good thing. already knowing the layout allows the devs to make a harder version of a level without it being frustrating. it's not like Halo backtracking where they're just trying to extend play-time. in a stealth game entering an area from a different vantage point and enemies being in different places actually makes it a different experience. more stealth games should do this.

>There are also some pointless unnecessary boss fights but at least they use stealth
I honestly don't remember anything like this. was it only in the second game? I dropped the second game after 2-3 hours. somehow just lost interest.

>>722910613
Agreed, I would also like to point out that MGS1 simultaneously reached the same conclusion as Half life on realism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpFEv1-mAo

For example, in MGS1 while crawling in ducts you can see a guy taking shit, while hiding in the restroom you can see guards coming in, washing hands, looking in the mirror, etc. If there are mine, the player can pick them by crawling over them. I would argue in terms of being alive, the world of MGS1 beats Half life by a long mile.
This is pushed even further in VR missions.

>>722899278
Stealth games turn off people the same way fighting games do by being too stressful and very punishing. Fighting games have been able to make a comeback though because of hype culture and youtubers

>>722913657
Nobody asked about realism but okay. Nobody also said that realism is a good thing or a bad thing in games but okay. This is a stealth game thread. Realism is hardly ever useful for making a stealth game fun. It only works up to a point. For example, Thief has complex enough simulation of light and sound to make sneaking around very intuitive. So, that realism makes the game better. But it also has dumb guards who don't act in realistic, human, unpredictable ways. Because predictability makes stealth games good. So, that lack of realism makes the game better.
But aesthetic realism like the things you mentioned, they're always good. You mentioned MGS guards using the bathroom, washing their hands. Yes, that bit of world detail is good. It's also featured in Half-Life, as the scientists in the first chapter can be seen doing those things.

>>722899462
Double Agent was an attempt to innovate and expand on stealth via espionage, but it had its own problems. It doesn't mean the chosen road was necessarily wrong, though.

>>722899278
>what would you do to bring it back to life, and more important, move the genre forward?
Take the tom clancy rights away from ubisoft.

>>722900346
mudang
MUDANG

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>>722900346
>sleight of hand
can she tell me I've been a bad boy?

>>722909597
>There is literally zero information on where the main objective is.
>The game relies entirely on the ever-present Skyrim-arrow
This ruined it for me.

>>722915017
it's not a problem with smaller levels

>>722915053
It actually is. I distinctly remember one of the human city levels near the beginning, where the objective is in a secret room with an invisible door mechanism. Nothing tells you that it's in a secret room, nor that there even are secret rooms. All you can do is use the objective arrow. The level isn't big, but it's still big enough to hide a literal secret.

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>>722915173
>It actually is. I distinctly remember one of the human city levels near the beginning, where the objective is in a secret room with an invisible door mechanism. Nothing tells you that it's in a secret room, nor that there even are secret rooms.
anon, I...

>>722914993
Getting some Velvet Assassin vibes.

>>722900346
I mean, it's a niche genre. I'm shocked some of those even have half-decent budgets.

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>>722909906
I think the problem with MGS is that it never really had any cool movement tech that made you feel like a spy. Don't get me wrong MGS is definitely good, but Splinter Cell had as much if not more cultural relevance when Chaos Theory was out.

>>722899278
Stealth is one of those things that's relegated to just another option in shitty open world ubishit games, but in way more watered down. Same as the Prince of Persia type of platforming.

>>722915249
Fucking THI4F.

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>>722915939
It's amazing that it's just such a given to mindless drones that "MGS is good" that they never feel like elaborating why, just so that they wouldn't discover for themselves that it's untrue. A reminder. You're talking about a simplistic 80's 8-bit style monster maze occasionally interrupted by gimmicky boss fights with bad design. None of the game design takes advantage of the technology and know-how that was already available at the time. It was obsolete on release, and only remembered because of all the ways it wasn't a game.
You have been told that it's good and you believed them, and you don't know it is and always was bad.

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feel like pure shit, just want thief back x

>>722917110
>mazes = le bad
You have to be over 18 to post here anon.

>>722899554
Fucking this, I see people glaze stealth games but it's always so damn boring with it being the same copy-paste cookie cutter gameplay that got stale even 20+ years ago,
Having played through chaos theory and even pandora, the games truly just
>wait for easily choregraphed route
>or kill them, hide body, move on

>>722899278
>say stealth genre is stagnant
>post the picture of the most generic stealth game franchise
I hate you

>>722903180
For me, Shinobido improved upon tenchu by having you do different missions on the same familiar maps for different lords. Then they made a shit ps vita game and fucked off forever.

Every cunt whining that stealth os boring is making excuses for being an ADHD spastic retard in the vein of complaining that "FPS is boring all you do is click heads"

roguelite stealth/action game with pixel art. developed by 4 people in an under represented country.

Its going to be massive.

>>722917110
>None of the game takes advantage of the technology
>Is literally in 3d
>literally takes advantage of the ps1 hardware do deeply it has meta gameplay features

>>722900346
How do these games get by with next to no advertisement ?

>>722901404
why not mgs4?
playing on boss extreme pretty much forces you to used stealth because the enemies senses are on crack, a little twig breaking they will hear it three floors up, they can see you over a mile away causing you to think carefully about just running into the open

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>>722899278
How about we move the genre backward?

>>722917110
MGS is basically a Pacman clone with a more elaborate story lol.

>>722917906
>literally in 3d
In fucking name only. MGS is that radar in the corner. It has a 3d representation of that radar gameplay in the rest of the screen, and the gameplay is still the same 2D monster maze from the MSX2 Metal Gear games. It does not take any advantage of the technology of the late 90's to actually have depth in gameplay. They used all their effort on graphics and cinematic features. The gameplay was a decade behind every other game of its time.
Also, "meta gameplay features" makes a game worse, not better. When a game character tells you to find a frequency in the CD case, or becomes immune to rising-edge input detection mind reading as you switch controller ports, or lists save files of the player that has nothing to do with the ingame story, that is to a game's detriment. All breaking of 4th wall is bad for all storytelling. When you deliberately ruin your own immersion, I no longer need to consider any part of the story legitimate. And since that's 75% of all that MGS has, all that is left is bad, obsolete gameplay. Are you happy now? The game is bad and its story is made meaningless by its own verisimilitude self-destructing. That makes it less than 0/100. Worse than nothing.

>>722918309
Replying to yourself, that's a new low.

>>722918318
You don't know what you are talking about. That entire message is gibberish. It's liking speaking without knowing the basic vocabulary.

>>722899554
I a prologue of this upcoming called Deserter, where on the highest difficulty the guards can randomly switch up the order of their routes. A simple solution but I kind of liked that - you couldn't just savescum and expect them to go the same way every time.

>>722918501
Denial is all you've had for decades and it's what you will continue to have. You have made yourself immune to information so that you could love the lies in your mind.

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>>722918920
I can explain if you want:
>le 3D
None of the games you play or enjoy are true 3D, except FPS (and even that can be argued). Fighting games? 2D (even Tekken), Action games? 2D (even Devil May Cry, Bayonetta added platforming and everybody hated that). RTS? 2D

The point is, 3D is only a "representation" and not a gameplay thing. We don't even have controllers that have 3D analog sticks. All we have is X/Y plane.

Moving on,

>and the gameplay is still the same 2D monster maze from the MSX2 Metal Gear games
So does Zelda.
>It does not take any advantage of the technology of the late 90's to actually have depth in gameplay
Refer to point one, it provide a better representation of what is happening in the world. In fact, this is the case with every game we are still playing the original Wolfenstein but with a better representation. Half life same thing.

And nobody likes the boss fights in MGS1. Not a single soul. MGS2 comes out and its literally MGS1 on steroids.

>>722919685
>3D games aren't 3-dimensional
What the fuck is wrong with you? Every game mentioned in this thread other than MGS takes advantage of the fact that games were able to adopt three dimensions. Your assertions regarding that are so baffling that nothing else you say can possibly have any rationality behind it. Get in the corner and think

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>>722899427
>stealth games are by extention, puzzle games

>>722920302
I specifically elaborated every single point with explanations and examples. All you said is, MGS didn't do X while other games did it. Can you give examples of how "other" games took advantage of 3D? That was not already happening in 2D just at an abstract level?

>>722920546
Thief has texture-based material definition that lets the player attach rope arrows into any suitable material, transforming spaces meant only for ground navigation into spaces that the player can traverse in three dimensions at their own whim. The same can also be achieved with free manipulation of physics objects to create new paths. Thief also has a 3D node graph based audio propagation and muffling system that processes audio signals through the levels to propagate hearable inputs to NPCs and also to process what the player hears through EAX multi-environments.
With Splinter Cell it's much more authored. The levels are three dimensional with paths on the ground, under the floor and in the ceiling, and NPCs have full range of senses and ability to engage in the 3D environment.
Styx is entirely about full 3-dimensional movement to allow the player to avoid threats by taking routes that they can't use.
Do not bother attempting to contradict this by redefining it so it fails your test or that MGS, the fully 2-dimensional game somehow passes your test. You asked for examples and they were provided to prove a point against you and prove that you are wrong.

stealthfags are such pseuds, it's embarrassing

>>722921285
>Thief has texture-based material definition that lets the player attach rope arrows into any suitable material, transforming spaces meant only for ground navigation into spaces that the player can traverse in three dimensions at their own whim. The same can also be achieved with free manipulation of physics objects to create new paths.
Nothing to do with 3D. Ever played Sokoban? Pushing objects. Ever played Zelda or Pokemon? Pushing stones in holes to cross a path? Attaching a rope to traverse in other dimensions? Ever played bionic commando?

>Thief also has a 3D node graph based audio propagation and muffling system that processes audio signals through the levels to propagate hearable inputs to NPCs and also to process what the player hears through EAX multi-environments.
Nothing to do with 3D. I have programmed surround sound application, there is nothing stopping you to implement sound propagation in a 2D game. EAX is just an accelerator, everything you can do on an EAX card can be written in software and this is the reason nobody manufactures them anymore.

>With Splinter Cell it's much more authored. The levels are three dimensional with paths on the ground, under the floor and in the ceiling, and NPCs have full range of senses and ability to engage in the 3D environment.
>Styx is entirely about full 3-dimensional movement to allow the player to avoid threats by taking routes that they can't use.
>Do not bother attempting to contradict this by redefining it so it fails your test or that MGS, the fully 2-dimensional game somehow passes your test. You asked for examples and they were provided to prove a point against you and prove that you are wrong.
This is the same thing as Tekken. Tekken, Virtua Fighters, Dead or Alive, etc are not 3D fighting games, they are simply 2D games. I know this is hard to understand, so here's the creator of Ultima explaining it in detail:
https://youtu.be/zyVTxGpEO30?t=1426

>>722899427
SC does have great dialogue though. As does Thief 2. Stealth players want some wit. It's my biggest complaint with Intravenous and MGS: horrible writing.

>>722918318
>In fucking name only. MGS is that radar in the corner. It has a 3d representation of that radar gameplay in the rest of the screen, and the gameplay is still the same 2D monster maze from the MSX2 Metal Gear games
Hello the kotti.
Play without the radar you cretin.
But without the radar as a crutch you'd have to use your brain to look out for enemies, potentially activate your frontal lobe to remember where they are and their routes time estimates which would take away the precious brainpower that is constantly used to create a cope how you won against the soviets by killing off their retards and ideological undesirables in exchange for giving away more territory than they originally asked for which is an epic win because they didn't rape you out of existence and just ended it with a treaty.

>>722899278
Ever heard of Dishonored?

Intravenous already exists.

>>722921896
hey, retard. all those examples are IN 3D. that means those games take advantage of the third dimension.

I am nta and I have never played MGS so I wouldn't know if it's gameplay is truly 2D or not. but I do know that Thief, Splinter Cell and Styx all definitely leverage the third dimension in ways that cannot be abstracted down to 2D.

>>722899337
its like a puzzle game with several possible solutions