>balance is important for singleplayer games because....it just is, OK?
go back
>>719504659if adding something simple like a new item or new NPC breaks their entire fucking game then they really suck at programming
are you ESL by any chance? that isnt even slightly whats being said hereplease go back
>>719504659regresar
>>719504659I still don't know why 10 rerolls is fine in the roguelike game. Getting whatever you want sounds more broken then rolling the 2% to get this untested, new item.
>>719504683fpbp>>719504738spbp>>719504787tpbp
balance is important for singleplayer games because players will optimise the fun out of a game given the chance
Most of the problems surrounding balancing occur because the developers are retards who fell for the "big numbers = happy players" meme. They think attacks need to do hundreds of points of damage as the baseline, so of course when you start putting in mechanics like "Boosts attack by 1.8x when afflicted with incontinence" and your attack hits for over 400 points of damage, the numbers start to escalate and your math is harder to wrangle.One hit = one point of damage. That needs to be the standard starting point.
>>719504659>Game has multiple weapons/moves/characters>1 Weapon completely trivializes the game and makes it boring>HUR DUR WHY WOULD YOU BALANCE A SINGLE PLAYER GAME?!
>>719505051Metaprogression saps out the fun by making (You) too powerful after enough attempts so what good is balance in these modern games?
>>719505051that's more of an issue with multiplayer with a meta you have to follow to stay competitive. single player does not have this issue. you can choose the "bad" option and give yourself a handicap if you desire. how you play a single player game is completely in your hands and the balance or non-balance is no real detriment.
>>719504659Gamemaker is a shitty language
There's balance and there's letting autist speedrunners dictate how much fun you should be having. Online communities truly have ruined singleplayer games.
These same devs didn't add a wall check to this spike attack. They really should just stick to VS slop.
>>719505283half a century of years of videogame development prove you wrongmost players would rather not have fun over playing in a way they feel is intentionally gimping themselves
>>719504683No he's right. This sprt of shit sucked the fun out of binding of isaac
>Makes a game beyond his cope>Keeps filling it with pointless minigames targeted at one or two specific people>The last one he added like the jump king shit lasted a single stream at best>Nobody's touched the game since, probably his laziest update>Now the latest "its hard guys, that's why it takes so long THE BALANCING"Reminder that this guy had a meltdown cause cause his other Holo game bombed badly(he also hasn't added online to it like he promised to.)The simple fact that he's even doing this is retarded, go back and balance after you're done.
>>719504659Balance is important for RPGs and games that have multiple playstyles/builds. If one or two playstyles are OP and ridiculously stronger than everything else it makes the game boring and ruins replayability. Vice Versa is also true if one or two builds stand out as being particularly bad. It doesn't matter how good or bad you think the core "gameplay" is. Bad balance hurts replay value in games with multiple builds/playstyles.Good balance is the difference between playing a singleplayer RPG for 100 hours and 1000 hours.
Roguelikes balance themselves by making you find the broken thing before you can use it. The consistency boosters are the problem.
>>719505917This is clearly false just based on how many people replay BG1 and BG2. Balance complaints were rife with both of those games.
>>719504659I don't feel like reading the image, but I'll just go off of the greentext.It depends on how egregious the thing in a single player game is. If it takes multiple hours of grind to achieve, then it's whatever, who cares if there's an ultra mega build that wipes the whole game if it takes an average playthrough worth of time to even get going.If it's something that can happen within the first few minutes and dethrones every future strategy as well since it's just that good, either buff the other strategies to match (maybe improve enemy stats to compensate as well), or fix what caused this overpowered early-game combination that stomps the whole game.
>>719506243yeah and unless you're doing a challenge run everyone ends up with same couple of good builds
>>719506282In the past it was just a combo of items that just made one specific character practically unkillable, but you needed to actually roll them.
>>719506389and how is that a problem?
>>719506645Because it's boring? Are you stupid or something?
>>719506692Anon... this is the game in the OP. It's boring regardless of the balance.
>>719506692it's clearly not. they keep replaying it. you're assertion makes no sense.
>>719504659devs sound retarded if this is for a singleplayer game
>>719504659Single player balance is fundamentally different from multi player balance.>hard character is significantly better than easy character if played well>gimmick character is usually worthless, but gigasmashes in specific situations>character is intentionally kept weak/OP for lore reasons>expansive/hard to unlock characters are stronger to justify the grindAll of these are acceptable and normal in single-player games, but gameruining in multiplayer games.
Why the fuck are you balancing a VS type game, the entire point is finding that combo that lets the game play itself
Literal skill issue>oh if we add dependencies and variables it gets bloatedCoding isn't about thinking about things in a logical numerical step by step its a very fucking simple>if pc class is x then yYou don't have to backload the entire fucking logic for all other potential player characters after that. What do you fucking constantly need the game to remind itself the character is x because there's a random chance you'll involuntarily troon out?May each of these worthless KIKE NIGGER whores burn in a pit of shit while PAJEETS shower them with tears for ruining their squalid meal. Let every pursuit to establish a family wither and die as the unborn CHILD is RAPED into paste by demons and the mothers womb tattered beyond salvation. Rot and decay you pathetic imitations of humans. May you all be feasted upon by starving SPICS & CHINKS
>>719506645>32 builds options>only 5 are any good, and realistically only 3 will ever seriously be used>the skills and items for every other builds are uselessI'd prefer that the time and effort that went in the 27 other builds not be a complete waste. Especially if it's just a number issue and not more complex mechanics.
>>719507249you have no idea if they won't just keep using the same build they keep using. you're assuming they will if it's more balanced, but where are you getting that?
Please can we ban all random tweet reposters. In fact ban their entire region.
>>719504659Yes, balancing and refining a single-player game is perfectly fine. Assuming it's not has never made sense.
balance is important in single player games because too hard or too easy makes the game boring or tedious
>>719504659Yes? Games are more interesting and require more thought when there's multiple similarly viable options/strategies instead of one that's clearly dominant.You remind me of certain elden ring players who basically had a breakdown when the stupidly OP shit got nerfed.
>>719507359That' just some hypothetical game, not whatever OP's about.
>>719504683>>719504738>>719504787Based and sage.
I find this really funny considering how often people replay and enjoy Bethesda games.
>>719507687stealth archer
what's with all the "go back" schizos in the threadwho do you work for
balance IS importantif a weapon makes the game too easy, the game becomes boring. if a weapon isn't any good at all, that's frustrating and just leads to the weapon being ignored.
>>719505098>big numbers = happy playersIt do be like that tho. >One hit = one point of damageSounds fucking lame as shit tbqh senpai
>>719504659He's clearly just a shitty dev
>>719504659Balance is how you have variety of choice.
>>719508343choice is when you have a variety of choice
>>719508425No. If you have 10 choices and 9 of them give you cancer, you have 1 choice.
>dont balance in singleplayer games>faggots cry that the game is shit because its too easy (they looked up the most OP strats and only used those)
>twitterniggers b like >wordswordswords
>>719506985>gimmick character is usually worthless, but gigasmashes in specific situations>gameruiningi agree with the rest of your post but that shit is perfectly fine in multiplayer games too
>>719504659It's important to an extent but not as important as it is in competitive or online games.It has been demonstrated time and time and time again that a vast majority of people will gravitate toward whatever is easiest/safest to execute so long as it yields success. If you make an action combat game that people can easily clear 80% of the way through it just by mashing a single button, facetanking damage and healing when needed and you suddenly put a few bosses at the end which are balanced around the assumption that the player has experimented with and learned how to use all the tools available to them you're going to have a ton of players who get walled and proceed to bitch and moan and review bomb your game.A lot of game balance revolves around protecting people from themselves because most people are retards and will stick with whatever simple thing is the first to show success and refuse to branch out from there.
>>719506985You're ignoring the>easy character is significantly better than hard character even if played badlywhich is where the true problem rises from.All people saying muh singleplayer balance doesn't matter is a braindead retard.
>>719505051AC6 became a bore if you used double shotguns because every thing died in fractions of seconds, there was no more game.
>>719504659if you are given a dozen options but only 1 or 2 are any good, you only end up using the 1 or 2 of them. Yes, balance is important in singleplayer.
>>719508772NTA but it depends heavily on the context. For example if you have a character who sucks at everything except locking down a point that character is obviously going to be a borderline requirement if your game features a mode that heavily revolves around a single point like "king of the hill." This is problematic because they're probably not that great in a lot of situations but in a single game mode they are the entire meta.It's only fine if their niche power comes from organic situations which are influenced by players and not by the rules/objectives of the game.
>>719509287not if they're very intentionally like that. don't those games give you 3 choices out of a dozen. by not having them balanced it makes the decisions more impactful in what are offered to you. If they're all balanced why bother caring about the choices offered at all?
>>719508492One guy is all it takes to make the low tier option 9 look like a good choice. Patch era games wouldn't understand this.
>>719509802Wrong.
>>719509510No, a game having shitty balance does not make your choices more impactful.
if everything is balanced what reason is there to choose anything?
>>719510012...Are you retarded?
>>719504659Sage
>>719510012Balance does not mean choices are literally the fucking same you idiot.
>>719510056if this does the same thing as that why do I care?
>>719510107but it does take any real reason away from choosing one over the other. I want the one that looks neater I guess.
People say "just don't use overpowered options" but you end up locking yourself out of content that would be fun if it was tuned properly. Which makes the game less fun. Like all of the new factions in Warhammer: Total War are overstuffed with power creep. Not playing overpowered options means not playing any of the new campaigns. Which I don't, but I would if they were balanced to give a good challenge.
>>719510227No it doesn't, stop using a retarded mental model of what balance is.
>>719510121>retardBalance isn't about making sure "this" does the same thing as "that." It's about making sure both have a roughly equal opportunity of a favorable outcome.
>>719510284but it becomes the same issue. you're given a choice of things that roughly do the same thing. does it change your playstyle somehow? well, we all favor different playstyles so the choice becomes obvious again.
>>719510409No it doesn't. You're a fucking idiot.
>>719510498balance can be dumb and make games worse.
>>719509260The double zimmerman/double needle builds worked so well because they caused so much stagger damage you could near instantly stagger bosses and other ACs then take huge chunks out of their health. If singleplayer balancing is worth a damn at all, it's ensuring that players don't find some early game strategy that makes the game boring because it's so amazingly better and easier to do than anything else.
>>719510409>but it becomes the same issue.How? This doesn't make sense unless you're a retard who derives enjoyment from playing the meta option. There is no logic which supports your claim other than assuming a direct correlation between power and enjoyment but that's a fundamentally different thing than what is actually being discussed.
>>719510564[citation needed]
Old fighting games are more balanced than nu fighting games. Policing who is and isn't good just makes a worse game overall.
>>719510653If things are balanced what does matter does your choice make? Why choose?
This character has a built in shield gimmick, self rez(which you can stack with the one up items) and absurd range when you max her main weapon out, on top of constant DoTs, and she also has a dodge gimmick with one of her abilities.She's unlocked by default, you're trying to a balance a game when characters like this exist? Pretty sure she's not even the most broken one either.
>>719510840Just passing by to say you're everything wrong with the modern audience
>>719510012The way I see it, anything with choice will have inherent imbalance. However, everything should at least have a baseline minimum of working as intended. Don't homogenize everything, but make things at least make sense. For example, if you have an RPG and one class is about damage and one is about healing, the healer shouldn't be better at damage than the damage class too. It makes the damage class completely redundant.
>>719510840Because you aren't always going to make the same choice you autistic retard. If I play sneaking guy, I want sneaking guy to be able to complete roughly as many challenges as combat guy, even if they're not the same ones. If I play magic guy, I don't want magic guy to dunk on sneaking guy in stealth and combat guy in combat.
>>719511181why not? it's single player. It doesn't matter if one dunks on the other.
I am of two minds when it comes to balance in single player games.I understand that making classes or upgrade paths imbalanced to the point where it is pointless to ever build the bad path does hamper the experience for me. At the same time, I really enjoy the idea of having to figure out/optimize shit to break the game and if every class is equally viable that isn't particularly satisfying.I think the solution is to make broken shit a reward for significant investment. A broken build should be the payoff for suffering through a very rough early game.
>>719511329Yes it does matter.
>>719511378It clearly doesn't.
>>719511329Yes, it fucking does. if you only struggle or need to make an effort/plan ahead because you're picking the wrong choice on purpose, it will always take away from the experience. If there's always>the mage could just magic through this with one button and move onEven the other choices become more boring, and that ruin the experience of picking mage itself.
>>719510990Oh, but aren't modern games the balanced ones and the old bad terrible games the unbalanced ones?
>>719511438It does. You're fucking retarded is the problem.
>>719511524No? You're in the thread for a terribly balanced game.
>>719511552Oh, so in old D&D mages didn't totally dominate the game, huh? Old Bethesda games are the epidemy of balance too.
>balancing>in a VS cloneWhy would anybody give a shit about whether something in a glorified dopamine dispenser is busted?
>>719511626Some old games being unbalanced means new games are balanced? You sound dumber with every post you make.Expedition 33, the game that is "game of the year" for a lot of people, was a game that I enjoyed, but ultimately the complete lack of balance did hurt the main story bosses experience for many, as it was genuinely hard for those bosses to not be deleted by someone who put even a bit of effort into building characters.
>>719504659Yes, brown retard, balancing is important in singleplayer games.
>>719510946>Die>Take however much time to revive>Die again because 200 enemies are on top of youThe game balances itself. poncle made an idiot proof formula for anyone to follow.
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/281315068/#281315068Why doesn't /v/ do this?
>>719510840Okay you're genuinely retarded.
>>719511895because /v/ has been /b/ 2.0 for over a decade
>>719511626Yeah, and I bitched about it until they released a game where that didn't happen.
>>719511920disparity is what gives choice value. balance does devalue disparity.
>>719511884>The game balances itself. poncle made an idiot proof formula for anyone to follow.Anon picked a terrible choice to use for "broken character in holocure". She's probably one of the weakest characters, Zeta is a better example of having way better damage output than others and spammable invencibility mechanics, which did make the game way easier than most other characters, at least back when I played it like years ago.
>>719512036>retardYou can achieve disparity in ways more than just power. Shut the fuck up.
Balance and progression are important in any video game. Would it be fun to start a new Skyrim playthrough, instantly add 400k gold, daedric weapon and turn on god mode?
>>719512206don't ask zoomers, they'll say yes but still complain the game is too long
>>719512206This is where someone will probably say yes.There are people like that, I'll assume those are the exact same troglodytes that do argue about balancing being unnecessary in single player games.
>>719504659
>>719505697that's isaac having spongy nothingburger enemies
>>719510680I don't think they were more balanced, but they were more interesting. It feels like the way newer games balance things is just to make unique tools less and less powerful, except damage. I'm not against system based fighting games compared to character based ones but they can't even bother to make interesting system mechanics either.
>>719509198I would rather have one character be a glorified easy modo and not use it after 15 minutes of trying him out than everyone be the exact same "le balanced" copypasted character with no meaningful differences.
>>719512090>New character is intentionally broken so you'll come back and use themSee this is the downfall of every modern game. Ulterior motives are not balance so devs really ought to fess up and say they don't care about it.
>>719510107Modern "balance" philosophies do quite literally mean that, everyone is the same thanks to equity and anyone slightly stronger gets nerfed to the ground.
>>719510946>Pretty sure she's not even the most broken one either.she's actually considered dogshit or middle tier at bestthere's characters that can literally wipe the screen clean with their normal attacks every 3 seconds with the right build (and by that i mean with 2 items)she's not even the strongest among the starter mons, the squid bitch and mori are exponentially better
>>719512912No.
Balance makes single player games bland. It's the wild differences that make things interesting, but trying to balance those wild differences do make them less interesting.
>>719513025The answer to that one is pretty simple, you make a Saba themed enemy who steals your 2 items and then the entire flowchart collapses on itself.
>>719513396the lead dev has actually been desperately trying to balance irys and fauna and it never really worksto this day fauna in particular is so overpowered that she can literally clear entire stages as you go goddamn AFK and only click to select upgrades, not even the dev turning on late game stages into fucking touhou bullet hells has stopped ceres from beating everything by doing literally nothing because she can just facetank it without giving a single fuckhakos is also a particular example (tho below the two mentioned above) because in a vacuum she's not that strong but using her ult literally melts bosses, which makes everything piss easy, the dev can't even balance this with boss invul frames because there's builds to spam ult by constantly charging energy, and i will repeat, hakos can do this as a baseline with zero items, with items she can crit to death multiple bosses at once with a single ult
>>719513223You need some form of balance at least, otherwise if one option does everything better than everyone else with no notable weaknesses makes things less interesting because you just pick that one option every single time. But it's easy to go too far in the other direction and make everything too similar to make sure they're at similar power levels. For variety's sake, every option should have unique strengths and weaknesses. They don't need to have the same performance, but they should at least function at what they're meant to do. The only exception I can think of is joke options, since they're blatantly meant to be bad.
>>719505697Chew slower
>>719513893>because you just pick that one option every single timeMaybe if you're autistic performance maxxer. I finished Morrowind using spears and was quite satisfied even if long blade is objectively superior. Balancing singleplayer games is stupid.
>>719513794Fauna just needs a minor cooldown on her healing attack trigger so it's not triggering like 20 times per second. Bae needs a smaller haste buff because holy shit 1000% is way too fucking good what was he thinking?>>719513993You're retarded and objectively wrong. You clearly know nothing about game balance or how a vast majority of people function.
>>719513794Also solvable. He just needs to make a henchmen enemies who stack healing debuffs on you until you walk around and kill it. Same goes for Ult spam by having the henchmen sap it and give to the boss.>But that's a dick move to the playersGood, now the streamer has something to react to. The girls are more important than the players.
>>719513993It's just not interesting to me if every option is just a worse version of another option. Not everything has to be perfectly balanced or good, but there should be a bare minimum where things work and options are different enough to make choices worth taking.
>>719513993But would you have done it if spears did a tenth of the damage?
>>719514206>until you walk around and kill it.you really don't play the game do you? anything within range of view dies to fauna, anything outside range of view is not loaded in>Same goes for Ult spam by having the henchmen sap it and give to the boss.this is the exact kind of westoid balancing that ruins games because it would make 60% of the roster objectively useless and would do little to hurt the absolute top tiersnot even middle of the road autoattackers like mori and suisei would be affected, if anything they would appreciate it thanks to buffs that happen when you don't have ult available and actual top tier autoattackers like risu? sometimes people forget she even has an ult
>>719514206>enemies who stack healing debuffs on you until you walk around and kill itWouldn't help due to shield+heal food spam builds.And at the point you are dealing enough damage to kill fauna through her shield and healing stacking you are doing enough damage to instakill literally everyone else in the roster except for invul spammers like noel and maybe korone.
>>719504659It's highly dependent.>Games with multiple choices, where one is so obscenely strong that it overshadows everything else? Balance is important.>Game has a very specific exploit/strategy that completely trivializes the entire game? Balance is important.>Game has a thing that's a bit better than most others, to such a small degree that only metafags would ever care about it? Lmao who the fuck cares.
>>719504659If you don't balance them, then people that don't deserve to win will win. Journalists should get hard stuck with no way out other than to get good.
>>719505283>you can choose the "bad" option and give yourself a handicap if you desire.okay but what if I want to use the good option because i think it looks cool or it fits my desired playstyle but i also don't want the game to be mind numbingly easy
>>719504835You can't account for every single possible interaction all the time. I assume breaking in this case is more "This unforseen interaction between these items causes much higher than intended damage" though bad programming can still be to blame. Especially if you do every interaction as a multiplicative which gets out of hand real fast.
>>719514683That's where percentage based damage comes in. All of the shitters would survive this attack so all that's left is to look into the healing formula.
>>719515312>That's where percentage based damage comes in.I have bad news for you, that's already a thing.It did nothing to stop fauna, though it was a decent nerf to korone and knocked her out of tier 0.> so all that's left is to look into the healing formula.Kay has reworked both healing and shields like 3 times now, none of it worked to stop fauna.
>>719515312kay already tried % damage, you know what people did? they took the item that slashes down your max hp% and called it a dayit ended up being A FUCKING BUFF because now fauna gets to enjoy the absurd item that before that was a death sentence while taking more or less the same amount of damagehttps://holocure.fandom.com/wiki/Energy_Drink
>>719515439I think what anon isn't understanding is that Fauna is broken on a fundamental level.There really isn't a way to fix her without gimping every other character or, figuratively, breaking Fauna's knees. She'd pretty much need a complete redesign in order to balance her.
>>719504835it's not really a programming problem. in the context of an RPG with "loadouts" / "inventory" management that affects stats it's a fundamental reality in math that more options increase the possibility space in exponential ways. by ADDING to the options you're MULTIPLYING the combinations.
>>719505098>>719507812it's the fucking starting point. obviously the numbers will get bigger. and no, big numbers aren't what's fun. it's the fact that the new number is BIGGER than the previous number. starting as low as possible just gives even more possibility for drastic increases. it's a complete win-win.
>>719515439>>719515674If we're on year 3 of Fauna meta then Kay really ought to saw off her legs and then give half of her powers to Cecilia.
>>719516094It's even worse than you think, beetle and candy+vamp stamp basically pushed her from the queen of tier 0 to a tier -1 goddess.Kay literally spent two years trying to nerf her and then accidentally exponentially buffs her (and I'm pretty sure the OP whine tweets are crying about this).
>>719504659>one weapon is more powerful than the other weaponsThis now means that only one weapon in the entire game is good.>doing this one specific sequence of moves gets you better outcome, like spamming A when catching pokemonYou must do this or you are playing the game wrong.From a player perspective it is really easy to see how minor things can greatly affect the game.Imagine a character moves a little better, jumps higher, etc. Now see if your levels designed for a certain movespeed, jump height, etc actually work or if it makes things worse like leaving the intended map area and getting your character stuck.
>>719516529>I surrender, I want (You) to make the enemies for meClose enough to an admission of that.
>>719516974>This guy literally got buckbroken by 3 years of fauna meta domination.Damn.
>>719507770What you don't understand is that "balance" to these people means the second half of what you said, watering down everything until it's boring.
>>719517313reminds me of how some perfectly okay items in the binding of isaac were nerfed because some turbo autist could beat the game with their/them eyes closed kekUnrelated but regarding balance in general, an issue is when PVP makes singleplayer games worse.
>>719516974>fauna broke him from "im literally never allowing mods and you are not touching my code ever" to "im making this fucking thing open source, please break her knees for me because i can't"kino
>>719516974Remember when management wanted to get ahold of this game? Now it's in the hands of everyone and they'll put all of Nimi and friends in there.
>>719518284place your bets, what happens first, it becomes a touhou fangame after an overhaul mod the 2huniggers shit out in a week, or rushia gets added because kay doesnt have the balls to?
>>719518389Both things have already happened.
>>719518676fucking kino
>>719504659if you just make shit and don't think about systems you'll have a bigger problem with thisits a concern but building modular will remove 75% of the stress
>>719504659Balance is important, if I can accidently stumble upon trivialising the game or have to deal with cock and ball torture because I dared try use that cool new weapon instead of straight sword +7 then it's going to hinder my enjoyment of the whole thing. Being able to break the game with the right no how using some specific combo isn't anywhere near as much of a problem though and devs that go out of their way to constantry try and "fix" that are wasting their time at best, especially since it's usually the former type of balance that ends up getting hit as a consequence.
>>719513025Out of curiosity, who is considered "good"? I like the rabbit with the rocket launcher, and the dragon with the sword, but I just play occasionally when I want a 20-30 minute game.
>>719521370Every character is good and has at least one semi-broken build. Characters being notably "good" in HoloCure typically means you have to be retarded to lose with them so long as you have at least a few of their desired items.
Tick tock Kay Yu, your time in the limelight is over
>>719522031Cool, what a non answer. I was hoping for some insight, not>lol dude it's all good!I even clarified that I have played the game and enjoy particular characters, wo your response is such a nothing post that you have personally caused me to now lack further desire to learn about this niche topic.
>retard spergs outCool thanks for picking up that megaphone and announcing you're a moron. Not sure why you felt the need to do so but you do you.
>>719504659100% this is due to spaghetti codea new character shouldn't cause your whole project to go bonkers because he should be interacting with your world with already safe and sound api like compositions that have been tested.
>>719504659>Hold forward>Knockback is gone so enemies can't punish you for holding forward>Slick movement my guyDev needs to realize that 90% of the players are slop eaters and would not care for balance
