Was he right?
>>719547060>Wash he wight?
He's dead. So who cares? lol, dumb, dead nigger.
>how dare video game studios not pay journalists a stipendCry harder.
>Letting people you've never met bully you from beyond the grave ISHYGDDT
Anything can be art as art is subjective, but the only people trying to gatekeep the term are jews who are heavily invested in keeping the term art to a high standard so they can sell bananas taped to the wall for millions.
>>719547060>vidya sucks>no, I won't elaborate>weird appeal to authority at the endSounds like the average /v/ poster.
>The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: “No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets.”>Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren’t gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.>Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, “I’m studying a great form of art?” Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.>I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case.FYI the three games mentioned were Waco Resurrection, Flower and Braid...
>>719547060Nah, he's just a retard.
>>719547060didn't he change his mind at some point?
Yes. Games are not art and they will never be art. And that's a good thing. Only normalfags who hate videogames want them to be "art".
He was kinda right. I've never in my life come across a genuinely great video game story. Some good, some decent. Never great. They always put their foot in their mouth and jump the retard shark eventually.
There are definitely games that are art but the people most invested in proving "games are art" for some reason tend to be obsessed with the ones that definitely aren't like AAA designed by committee movie games.Either way it's a stupid thing to argue about, games aren't going to be more or less enjoyable if you convince old people that they're art.
>>719547060Video games are art in the literal sense, but not in the complimentary sense.A turd on a plate is technically art too, but nobody is going to gasp and be genuinely enthused with its beauty.Video games are art, but low-brow, slop art for idiots. They're art without any artistic merit.
>>719547060No.Games are the pinnacle of art forms, mixing essentially all formats of art with player engagement and improvisation + social activities. They have influenced, inspired and moved people for many decades.And already some 10+ years ago, some quite prolific people from various fronts of life, including some ex- Lucas Film personnel, stated it well:Some people make games to express themselves, not to make money.These days, it's practically just as easy to start making vidya as it is to walk into an art store, buy a canvas, oil paints and brushes, and start painting pictures. And the options are essentially limitless.This alone should underline the fact that games are art.
>>719547685>storyVideo games are interactive and visual
>>719547685I dunno dude, fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas are pretty strong contenders.Hotline Miami is fantastic too.
>>719547685Why are you under impression that "art" = "story"?Have you never stopped to consider that games, being an interactive media, could have their very own, unique artistry?
>>719547824lol, lmao.
>>719547824kysYOU are the reason why videogames will never be art
>>719547060Games contain art and the gamification of the contained art is transformative.Ludotography is a usable tool for art synthesis, just like kinematography.It wouldn't even be completely accurate to delineate strictly between games, film or literature and so on, since they all fall into the greater category of narrative art using different tools.
>>719547060Video game platforms are art
>>719547060He ruined video games by saying this because it caused the shift in game development turning from importance of gameplay to aesthetics/story.
>>719547850>>719547918nice argument, faggots.
No he is a gremlin and granny looking retard. If a game makes you think about anything at all, its art. You could even argue gacha is art because its taking money for braindead retards for free.
>>719547975>Games contain art Is walking through a gallery an art?
>>719547685He's not. FFX has nothing less than a good book
>>719547060I have such a disdain for upperclass pretender art fags without talent nor ideas. Video games isn't art!! Sharts on the floor, now that's art.
Video games ARE an art. A motherfucking CON ART.
>>719547060Who?
this debate is forever annoying because nobody cares enough to actually engage with the argument he actually makes.is interactivity artful? is chess art? is tetris art? i genuinely don't know. ebert considers games as containing art (in the visuals, music etc) wrapped around something distinctly "not art" (gameplay). however, i am certainly dumber after having read any discussion about this.
>>719547847Both Mario 64 and Xenosaga are art, but for different reasons and that's fine
>>719548112Does the art gallery leverage something to change the context or experience of the contained artwork?If so, then it makes use of artifice and is art.
>>719547060Who cares? I don't have to consider something art to enjoy it
>>719547060Every craft is an art, it's that simple.
>MOOOM I POSTED IT AGAIN
>>719547060Let me put it like this, no one cares about the concept of "art" no one cares about whatever is called art nowadays.People only cared about it in the past because the world lacked proper entertainment and people needed to come up with some shit.
>draw picture>it's art>make music>it's art>write story>it's art>put them together in an interactive medium>it's not art anymore
>>719547824Fallout games were never good, especially tranny vegas.Hotline Miami is as much art as super mario for the NES. The only thing that comes close to being considered an art form is Journey, TLOU, Death Stranding & CyberpunkAnything other than that is LARP. i don't care if you think walking sims are pretentious. They're much more artistic than button mashing arcade games. Fuck you and fuck your taste in overrated indie trash
>>719548620>interactivethat's the rub. it's meant to entertain you so you can't really call it art. a game can be an artistic masterpiece but fail at being a good game.
He was an old fart who refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of a new medium. Nothing earth-shattering about that. I guess people get mad because he was well respected in his own field, but experts in one field are idiots in most others just like everybody else.MY question is: What did Ebert believe made something art? What qualities did film, music, and visual art forms all share that made art which video games apparently lacked in his eyes? There is literally nothing more engaging to the mind than a well crafted game that has something to say. No other medium can be made to so directly challenge it's observer. You don't have to take a quiz at the end of every chapter of a great novel to make sure you are appreciating what you are reading by actually bothering to deeply understand the material. One would think an auter type like him would appreciate a concept like that.Was it just because video games weren't big enough to become a means of money laundering yet, like film and paintings? Perhaps if he had lived another decade, he would be cynically proclaiming games like Dustborn as "art."
>>719547060What's funny is, games were more art back when he made that quote than they are now. The vidya industry has seen a more rapid decline into hyper consumerism than any other medium before it. Almost like it was co-opted to be the soma drug of our age.
>>719547060I don't care.
>>719547685>no story no artPainting and music BTFO, we literature chads can't stop winning!
>>719548679>Journey, TLOU, Death Stranding & CyberpunkThis some of the laziest bait I've seen in a long time.
>>719548680>a game can be an artistic masterpiece but fail at being a good game.Pretty much every game that has been proclaimed as true 'art' fits this mold>planescape:torment; godlike writing and narrative, bad game>disco elysium; same as above>spec ops: the line; surreal commentary on war wrapped up in a generic military shooter>ico/shadow of the colossus; spiritual journeys for the player character with simple and samey gameplay
>>719547685Real, I've never come across a genuinely good painting that would move me, music on the other hand, or sounds in general can feel pretty good, therefore art isn't art.
>>719548680Movies are entertainment therefore they can't be art?>a game can be an artistic masterpiece but fail at being a good game.That implies a game needs to stimulate your dopamine every 2 seconds like call of duty in order to be good and anything that strays from that tries to imitate art and isn't good
He's right. But later he changed his mind. Honestly, still no game become art right now. >>719548136except gameplay
>>719548820Music is shit. I haven't heard a single album in the last six years that I thought "yeah, this is great, I need a copy of this"
>>719548854Let me guess, you think delta rune and hollow knight silksong are the peak of gaming and MUST be considered art>This some of the laziest bait You are genuinely Low IQ if you think the story telling,characters and worlds of those games arent art worthy
>>719548180point and click high quality games was best, but no one cares about them.
>>719549056>Music is shitTake that Beethoven! Rot in your grave.
>>719547060Film critics can never fill a useful or interesting role in society.
>>719547181What the fuck happened to his face, cancer?
>>719549103>Classical No one listens to classical music by choice you fucking NERD.
>>719549103
>>719549198I do. Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy, Verdi, Vivaldi are pure KINO
>>719548180Better go tell every ballerina and ballroom dancer that what they do isn't art. Anybody can dance for fun, and anybody can get in on a dance with another person. Oh, they can't all do it as well as the people trained to, or understand every move as deeply? Same with video games. Dancing is inherently interactive, so it looks like Ebert wasn't just a curmudgeon about the newest form of art, but also implicitly denied the meaningfulness of what is likely the most ANCIENT form of art.
>>719549119>Film criticsMake that any kind of critic. How's the saying goes? Critics are just artists who were rejected in their field and became critics as a form of revenge.
>>719549198>refuse to listen to anything good>"I haven't heard a single album in the last six year"welp
>>719547060He was too narcissistic to remember that film wasn't considered art for the first 50 years of its existence to the point where "movie" was a pejorative term.The problem was that early fil did what games are doing now, which is to try to gain artistic credibility by aping already existing art forms. Until dev stop trying to make playable movies games will never be considered art.
>>719549000Even Mario Galaxy is true art
>>719548680Wouldn't the same apply to movies? A black and white arthouse film is vastly different from a high-octane action flick. One is an artistic masterpiece, the other is just some decent entertainment, but both can still very much beconsidered good movies. As for games, as long as the element of interactivity is present and well-handled, a gameplay-light indie attempt at art is no less of a game than the latest AAA combat-intense soulslike.
>>719549250Tryhard faggot that never gets invited to parties
>>719549313No toddlerslop nintendo game ever made is art
>>719549314>black and white arthouse film is decent entertainmentNo.
>>719549083still not falling for it
>>719547060I never saw the point in engaging with a statement from someone who was clearly more interested in being inflammatory than having a conversation. It's like arguing with someone on 4chan
>>719547774>Video games are art in the literal sense, but not in the complimentary sense.I hate that this is technically one of the most correct takes in this thread
>>719549412ragebaiting indian or retard? you know you're not going to get ad revenue on 4channel.org
>>719549265Most of them don't even make it to the point of getting rejected. They simply never try to begin with.
If he lived to see the MCU he'd say movies are no longer art either
>>719549475Nah
>>719549480>ragebaiting indian or retard?Stop projecting dude.
>>719548180It's a pointless discussion because everyone just defines art to include the thing they want to call art. In my personal definition art is something without functional value that provides aesthetic stimulation. So a sunset isn't art but a photo of it is. a wooden spoon isn't a piece of art but carving a pattern into it makes it one. Gameplay itself isn't art but a game can be if you build something around it, I look at gameplay more as the medium the art is made out of.
>>719549014i didn't say constant stimulation was a requirement, but you do need to maintain some form of engagement otherwise the purpose of the game is not being met. art doesn't have any purpose beyond existing, but a game does. it has to draw you in to a greater extent than an artpiece can imo, otherwise you might think it looks cool but you never pick it up. like a book with a good premise you might lose interest in opening the pages because it either comes off as too pretentious, or you have an idea of what you're getting into and feel uninterested. it has to strike a balance and achieve something magical, but a game can do all that and still be bad. like there are people who put thousands of hours into games they hate. or games that have horrible aesthetics. there is a weird form of cognitive dissonance that a game permits, if not relies on to be good.
>>719547060Most games aren't art, just like how most movies aren't art
>>719547060>WAKE-manAre we sure this is a real person?
>>719548694Ebert wasn't an auteur he was a lowbrow film critic, the direct precursor to the youtube critic types
>>719549198>i don't so nobody doeswhy is this retarded mentality so prevalent
>>719549160Yes and he had part of his jaw removed.
>>719549342Go back to listening to your mumble rap or whatever you faggot zoomers listen to.
>>719547060People pretend to care about it only because they have something to gain from it.
>>719550015What do you suppose that is?
>>719547060who fucking cares? i just wanna play vidya
>>719549000What even is a "good game" in your opinion? All of those titles achieved what they set out to do very well and didn't need to do more. There's a reason minimalism is a thing in art. If you bring up "fun" you're going to make me defend Druckmann, so help me God
>>719547060they were when Ebert was still alive but have since stopped
>>719547060>entire career is based on talking shit>gets throat cancerSometimes God has a great sense of humour
>>719551105>What even is a "good game" in your opinion?A good game is tight controls and as little friction between the character animations and the feedback when I press a button as possible. Yes, character action games are the peak of the medium. No, I do not care for movie games.
>>719549238When you worship a politician, you're setting yourself up for failure.
>>719547060Art is just a very fancy way of saying media with monetary value for rich people. Thats it.There is no "art". There is objectively good looking things and objectively bad looking things.The art part comes once institutions, countries and millionaires and above become interested in something.
>>719547060Who gives a fuck what he thinks? The stupid fuck hated The Good the Bad and The Ugly and gave it thumbs down - why? Because 'it was not cool to like Spagetti western'.Dude has no integrity. FUCK HIM.
Title is misleading. Ebert did consider a game art, the cult classic Cosmology of Kyoto. I played the original Resident Evil when it released. I know my horror kino. Cosmology of Kyoto is the scariest game I've ever played. The most gross, too. Ebert was right. Cosmology of Kyoto is the only videogame capable of inducing kinostasis.
>>719551598I do not care for your opinion
Video games are genuinely, unironically, the best medium for story telling. The interactivity alone makes story based games like MGS, CRPGs, JRPGs way better at telling a story than movies and even books in many casesThe problem is that boomers will never play video games if they didn't grow up with them. They're the least user friendly form of art because they require input from the person. You can't just consume it like with Movies, music, books. In a few decades video games will be more recognized as an art form since most kids grow up playing them now.
>>719547060He's a film guy so he probably doesn't want to accept that this new medium might be considered art by a newer generation. Hollywood has been in its own little bubble but I expect most games will survive longer and be remembered are art before the capeshit and remake slop coming out of Hollywood today
>>719551914>ask for an opinion>gets mad at opinion
>>719548680So you can have a gsme where you mostly just watch, and at some point there is a shift of control for the player when he actually gets to interact even though for the rest of it he just watched. And this is integral to the narrative being told. In that way a break of the 4th wall. This is something that is quite comment in theather.Is it because of that moment that it no longer is art? Even when it should be better considered since it transitioned the interactivity and non interactivity with such care and purpose and elevated the point of the narrative?Indika and Immortality are great examples of this
>>719547060he looks like a nonce
>>719547060He only ever played Mario so what does he know
>>719547060He's right, but not for the reasons he thinks he is. A video game is analagous to a canvas, not art itself, a video game can have art in it, which is what most people mean when they say "video games are art", once again, there is a simple communication error going on here.
>>719552175I already knew you had an opinion. What I had to find out was whether it was shit
>>719547060yes>>719552081>Video games are genuinely, unironically, the best medium for story telling.bullshit. Any coherent story would need to force you on rails, stripping you of agency, which is antithetical to interactivity.
>>719547060Yes, video games are superior to art.
>>719552298No, I mean video games are art.
>>719552308I wasn't the OP you were replying to. You asked an open question, I provided it. Enjoy your day!
>>719552325You're completely wrong. A competent dev/writer would curate the options available to the player so as to enhance the theme rather than detract from it. Note: by this standard, very few devs/writers are competent.
>>719547060His only achievement in life is shilling Cosmology of Kyoto to normies. Apart from that, he's a nobody.
>>719552441I actually did mean to ask it if the person I was replying to because it was relevant to their argument. Your opinion isn't.
>>719547629THIS
>>719552521Actually I love video games and whether or not they are art has nothing to do with what you or I want, it's simply a fact
>>719547060It's good he died. I don't think he would be able to live in a world were movies are dying and games make more than movies ever did.
>>719552508>Your opinion isn't.It sounds to me like you had your mind made up no matter what the answer would be or where it came from. Not exactly a good faith way of engaging with your fellow anon, now is it?
>>719552709No, if he actually had a proper answer as to what makes a game "good" I would've accepted it.
>>719547060No, but people trying to prove him wrong are a detriment to games as an art form.
>>719547623it was a weird half concession half seethe that was like 'my own definition for art doesnt match every thing i consider art and yet i consider those things art so perhaps to gamers can have experiences with games that are art and in reality i wasnt willing to put down the time to bother understanding games and see the artistic qualities in them so whatever i was retarded to even enter this arena of discussion"basically like an autist on /v/ that goes "that game sucks" because he saw it on the catalog and got upset even though he hasnt played it, and is just annoyed that its popping up everywhere
>>719548694Just because something is new it doesn't mean it should be accepted as anything
What IS art? What makes something art?
>>719551598And good design/character design/artstyle, since it's a visual medium
>>719552812>proper answerThis is exactly what I was talking about. What constitutes a proper answer and who makes the rules? It seems to me like he was just listing what was generally accepted as artistic games not making any kind of statement on them so I don't know what your objective here is, other than looking to sow discord.
Video games are art. If you reduce them to "toys for kids" then you're perfectly within your right to do so, but 1) you can't disregard the perceptions of others who do consider them art, and 2) all of the shitty things about modern day vidya, which you think are at least contributed to by the notion that games are considered art, won't magically go away if you manage to set in stone an ironclad declaration that games are not and can never be considered art.How do you define art? For me, >art is intentional, skillful, and intelligent human expression that uses the advantages of any given medium to communicate something meaningful about life, the human condition, or societyI saw in another thread that someone said something along the lines of>YES games are art, but that's not the issue; most games are BAD ARTand there's merit in that line of reasoning, and in fact that's a good segue to talk about how AI can be considered art but most of it is dogshit trash of the lowest order and will most likely never be more valuable than a cat turd smeared atop a McGriddle.
>>719547975>Games contain artSo does Cocomelon, is Cocomelon art?
>>719552574I love them too. Actually I love how games used to be, made by the kind of people who used to make them.
>>719553074>How do you define art?Fool's errand
Reminder Ebert disliked:>Die Hard>Starship Troopers>The Thing >A Clockwork Orange>The Warriors>Raimi's Spiderman (at least he did start this one's review with "Tobey Maguire is pitch-perfect as the socially retarded Peter Parker")>Blue Velvet>The Raid >Hellraiser>GladiatorAmong many others. And last but not least, he:>liked Home Alone 3 more than the first twoAs someone that's not American, I cannot imagine idolizing such a dumb boomer dead retard when it comes to movies, nevermind videogames.
>art is subjective>autists the world over argue over what constitutes art using subjective termsLol, it's almost as if even arguing about if something is art makes it art.
>>719547060Katamari damacy is art, I will not explain further.
>>719548180>is interactivity artful?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9so2ttqof4this is a sort of performative art.
>>719547060I've seen what gets called "art" these days, this is a complement
>>7195530741000 people can't express anything, and by playing it I would impose myself on anything you are traying to say either way. Unless you force me to experience your piece of art the way you want it, which would go against the interactive part, which is the part that makes a game a game.Games cannot be art, and people who have a problem with that should stay away from the hobby
>>719553224the funniest part about blue velvet is that he hated it so much that he spread lies that lynch exploited isabella rossellini
>>719553224He was right, here. I don't care if he was wrong all the other times
>>719547060Games are very complex art that isnt a still image
>>719553678>1000 people can't express anythingnot sure what you're trying to imply with this.>by playing it I would impose myself on anything you are trying to say either way ever heard of "death of the author"? it's perfectly fine to have your own interpretation of what a piece is trying to say, and in fact many pieces of art are left open to interpretation.>Unless you force me to experience your piece of art the way you want it, which would go against the interactive part, which is the part that makes a game a game.unless the systems that provide you with interactivity were created with the express purpose of getting you to experience a particular thing, of course.Games cannot be art, and people who have a problem with that should stay away from the hobbygames can be and are art, and people who have a problem with that should stay away from the hobby.
>>719553224>Starship TroopersMost popular movie in ukraine and russia
>>719553139You quoted part of my post, does that mean you have reading comprehension?Read the rest of the sentence.
>>719547060No, because Disco Elysium, Planescape Torment and Clair Obscur happened.
>>719554281>not sure what you're trying to imply with this.That one person can have a vision, 1000 people cannot. See books written by many authors.>ever heard of "death of the author"?Yes, and you are using it wrong.>unless the systems that provide you with interactivity were created with the express purpose of getting you to experience a particular thing, of course.which is either railroading or leaving it to the player to use it as a toy>games can be and are art, and people who have a problem with that should stay away from the hobby.Cope. Nope.Can't understand why do you want them to be considered le art so bad.
>>719553270Highest IQ take itt
>>719554929>many people can't have a visionbut they can.>you're using death of the author incorrectlyno, I'm not.>railroading or using it as a toyand? an experience is an experience. you have to use your fucking eyes to appreciate a painting. is that railroading because you can't touch it and consume its colors through synesthesia?and I reiterate, games are art. cry about it.
Reminder that there's a thing called Interactive art and pretentious assholes like one in OP never claimed Interactive art isn't art. So that is art then video game is no doubt arthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_art>>719553074>any given medium to communicate something meaningful about life, the human condition, or societyhonestly that's pretty dumb. Look at Symphony 40 of Mozart, one of the greatest works in music history, and it's not clear what meaningful thing Mozart was trying to say here. Sure, you can make up some bullshit about its meaning but you can do that for everything, including the most meaningless video games out there
>>719553270I refuse to take "art is subjective" seriously because it means a sculpture of a man sucking his own dick is art. Some fucking guy set a pineapple on the floor as a joke and it became an exhibit.
>>719554716nonsequitur
>>719555147>NO UConcession accepted
>>719555301>I refuse to take "art is subjective" seriously because it means a sculpture of a man sucking his own dick is artWell too bad, because it is. You can argue what makes good or bad art but art in of itself requires a subjective participant to observe and critique it.
>>719555169fair point, but it still rouses within the listener some interpretation of what the author intended to convey, and that's enough on its own to have effectively communicated something 1) intelligent 2) through the skill of the artist and 3) that says something about life or humanity or some other relevant topic. that you took the time to have a feeling about it is the point, even if the feeling you had was that you had no feeling at all. is that pretentious? you took the time to listen and thus perhaps it says more about you that you didn't resonate with it than the art itself.>>719555392shut up, retard.
The thing with videogames is that they're a combination of many different disciplines all at once and that for one to truly be a masterpiece it has to excel at all of them, a book needs good writing, a movie needs good cinematography and writing. A game needs all of the above plus the gameplay has to be both engaging and complementary to all other aspects of it.The sensation sekiro gives you when you finally cut down isshin is something that not many other works of art can provide, and it's because the story is not just that now you have to kill an inmortal demigod grandpa because his grandson doesn't want his country to die. But the whole journey the player experiences from when you first pick a sword and panic the moment more than one guy rushes at you to facing down the sword saint on a one to one duel to the death.People that immediately dismiss videogame stories as amateur or shallow usually don't pay attention to that when it's the very thing that separated videogames from any other medium
>>719549160god decided that he said enough stupid shit in his life
>>719555426>art in of itself requires a subjective participant to observe and critique it.nta but i think art involves conveying unchanging message that grows and coalesces with further inspection of the work. it can't be left to the viewer to define it, it's the artist that must find the ideal way to convey it. and beyond that, they need to find a message that's worth conveying to begin with, one that's as far away from arbitrary as possible. i think subjectivity diminishes those tenets too greatly, because once you apply your own findings then it's your work, not the artists.
>>719552951art is nothing more than human expression, the real question is if videogames can be "good" or "high" art, but people are retarded and refuse to actually stablish definitions before debating about this shit
>>719555672and to clarify i'm not saying this as a negative, it's just that this is a form of inspiration that leads to new work, and isn't the original art being looked at, but i think that gets lost in the moment.
very few books and movies have made me feel the same way I felt seeing the people of termina slowly coming to accept the fact that they're all going to die horribly
>>719555441You can say the same about video games or many man made thing that's unique. Also honestly when I listen to Symphony 40 I don't think it is conveying any specific meaning about life , rather I felt the emotions it was trying to invoke and most people probably feel the same way. The requirement that a piece of art needs to say something about life is too strict
>>719555672>i think art involves conveying unchanging message that grows and coalesces with further inspection of the workYes, which is what good art does. To sublimate a human experience into one that can be interpreted by a subjective observer. One can't exist without the other; the piece and the viewer are symbiotic. It's why if all conscious beings in the universe died out, art would no longer exist since there would be nothing to experience it.
>>719555441>>719555489>the very thing that separated videogames from any other mediumis the interactive part an nothing else
>>719555672>art involves conveying unchanging message that grows and coalesces with further inspection of the workauthorial intention can be considered and examined, but people will always interpret what they want, regardless of said intent. for instance, if you really wanted to you could find plenty of criticism against religion and the church in Kingdom Come Deliverance, a game that plenty of people have accepted as a glorification of Christ. Who's right or wrong? Why? Are you really going to boil it down to what the author says is the "right" interpretation?>they need to find a message that's worth conveying to begin with, one that's as far away from arbitrary as possiblethat's very difficult because practically any message can be interpreted in numerous ways. the simple message>I like catscan be argued over for the end of time if you don't know the authorial intent behind it, and even if you do, you can't stop the wheels of thought from churning. you're basically trying to tell me that good art can't be misinterpreted, and like this other anon says, some art escapes interpretation all together.>>719556004>I felt the emotions it was trying to invokethe emotion is in and of itself enough of a declaration of meaning, is what I was trying to say. that is, music can evoke a breadth of emotions in people, and that is why it's relevant, and not, say, because of the resulting visual it would make if rendered via audiography.
praying I get the strength to finally block this shithole board some day
>>719556010Art is art.Games are toys.May the act opf playin with toys can be artistic, but games themselves are atill toys.Doens't matter if you want to put the toys you like on a pedestal calling them "art"
>>719549313would you call a baby pacifier art?I'm kidding but this is a garbage example
>>719556324I was specifically criticizing the phrase "something meaningful about life, the human condition, or society", that's very specific and does not contain simply invoking emotions.I think what you were trying to say is idea, every piece of art at least need an intentional idea. I can't think of any art that doesn't have an idea, even if such idea is very unoriginal
>>719556337it's not that bad, anon. I feel you, though.>>719556454toys can be art.
>>719555672>unchanging message>can't be left to the viewer to define it>message that's worth conveying to begin withno fuck off that's retardedyou can't decide what is and isn't art and you can't dictate what should and shouldn't be conveyed you fucking mongdeath of the author is a thing, the audience as a collective can and will deconstruct and reconstruct the work through shared contextps: you're retarded
>>719556685the experience of jumping with mario and zooming though a level IS the artistic part of videogames retard-kun
>>719556454>Art is artCorrect>Games are toysGames can be toys, same way the mona lisa can be made into an action figure>May the act opf playin with toys can be artistic, but games themselves are atill toysPlaying with toys is the main and only way anyone can interact with it. A game can have a story or component that leads to introspection while a toy, generally, cannot>Doens't matter if you want to put the toys you like on a pedestal calling them "art"Overly reductive statement. A game like COD is not going to be talked about or taken seriously as art in most circles, but a game like The Wtiness certainly can be. Trying to make blanket statements like this on the medium as a whole is anti-intellectual.
>>719556839>toys can be art.Your toys will never be Mona Lisa or Moby Dick.
>>719556912then you're just making new art by introducing your own definition and notion, and that's not the author's work it's your own work. i already stated this is fine, just that it obfuscates the original meaning behind the work, which might be valued by others.
>>719547060ah yes... roger ebert..... who the fuck is that and why should i care what he said in 2010?
>>719556834sure, fair enough, but I think that evoking emotion is a statement of meaning. the meaning being that evoking emotion is a worthwhile enough endeavor that developing one's ability to write and orchestrate music and all the effort therein is worth doing simply to make someone feel something. otherwise, people wouldn't make music. it's almost like there's an inherent value to it.>>719556994maybe not, but you're just creating a distinction between "good art" and "art" and then declaring that if it's not "good" then it's not "art" and that's not true. art can be bad, but it's still art.
>>719556994the mona lisa is a shit painting thoughbeit
>>719556994They will. You gatekeeper boomer.
Show me a game as well made as Blood Meridian, pro tip, you can't, niggers!
>>719547060first of all.... anything can be considered art. It's just in the eye of the beholder. That's also why you see retards taking a shit on a canvas and some batshit insane artfags will say that is art.Art people are fucking weird and retarded. I'm sure they're also rich snobby assholes that think they are better than everyone. Artfags will see some bullshit value in anything they delude themselves into thinking. And then they will pay millions for it. The only reason why they aren't put into a insane asylum is because they aren't dangerous enough for it. And they often have lots of money so people throw stupid art at them for their millions of dollars.
>>719551762>There is objectively good looking things and objectively bad looking things.Brainlet take.Just because richfucks get pretentious about what they consider art doesn't mean there is no ambiguity at all to it. Different people like different things. The objectivity of it is limited.
>>719547060>game devs proceed to ruin themselves to prove him wrong a horrible time for video games.
imagine being a film critica guy who's job is the treat movies as art, even though they were a gimic less than 100 years ago,a toy for children,and you come out and say video games aren't art,and are toys for childrenI don't care about the art label and I don't care about a 'film critic' that shat on John Carpenters "The Thing" when it came out.An finally, I don't care about movies, I stopped watching them years ago.
Is this "high" art?
>>719547060Yes, no, kinda, sorta, yeah. Video game development is an artform, and video games are a work of art, but video games themselves are not art; the minute they're handed over to the player, they're an activity instead. For a video game to be art, it needs to have the art persist through the fact that it's an activity, and without losing the fact that it is an activity (so it stays a video game and not a walking sim), and very few games actually manage to do that.
>>719557013you can't patent ideas and art doesn't exist in a vacuum, it requires an active observer to see something and infer meaning from itif enough people infer tangentially similar meaning then you can extract themes and with enough themes you can extrapolate those and engage in thoughtful discussion and critique of the underlying abstract concepts, away from the author's intentions or deliberationif we allow artists to define their work in any rigid sense you ironically end up with something counter to the original creative endeavor, you're attempting to police people's views and limit their ideas regarding abstract principles, which no one person has or ever will be the sole inventor or proprietordo you see why this is fucking retarded yet?
>>719557275>game where you play as the judge scalping injunsWould be kino
>>719554929>Can't understand why do you want them to be considered le art so bad.The question is, why do you want them not to be? When I say games are art that's an objective evaluation. What I "want" doesn't enter into it.
>>719554929>That one person can have a vision, 1000 people cannot. See books written by many authors.This. Movies aren't art.
>>719547060yesjust look at the current gaming landscape
>>719547060Are movies art? Most are made as commercial products by committee working off of as many tired tropes as they can to milk dry consumers who don't care. This has been true for over 100 years. I would argue the same amount of movies (and even songs) are on the same level as most videogames, regardless of the personal definition of art.
>>719554929>That one person can have a vision, 1000 people cannot. See books written by many authors.Uhh, the bible?
>>719557081>evoking emotion is a statement of meaning.this trivialize intentional meanings, from lines of reasoning like this everything can be made meaningful, from a block of C# code to Indian street food.Maybe everything is meaningful and everything is art but I feel like that's not in the spirit of what we're talking about here
>>719556953You are going in circle.And it's still a nope
>>719557165The gat is there for a reason, and it's a good thing. If you found a closed gate on the way, it's sign that you need to go back
>>719557285It's it's in the eye of the beholder than art doesn't exist and the word "art" wouldn't exist either, since it indicates nothing.
>>719557737M8 your argument was circular to begin with>Art is art which is not a game therefore
>>719547060To me games are art simply because they’re creative works of media. But I dislike the rhetoric around it. The “games as art” people are really only talking about very safe, quirky shit as art. Like Deltarune, Celeste, Hollow Knight, or other safe little indies. They screech at you like a banshee if you suggest that Senran Kagura can be art too, and that fanservice is a valid creative choice. And this isn’t even accounting for darker subject matter. To call on Deltarune again, they threw a shitfit over imagery that implied rape in their safe space tumblr game. This is very revealing on how they really only say games are art because it’s just a superficial identifier that owns the uncultured chuds. I have more respect for someone that thinks games aren’t art, so long as they value creative freedom. Which is more important than picking apart definitions.
>>719557737I know I'm right. Your half ass non reply is proof of that.
>>719557721>from lines of reasoning like this everything can be made meaningfulyes, anon. everything is meaningful, but we have discussions about it to determine exactly how meaningful and why, because people have disagreements on such things. it's those discussions that also inform our interpretation of art, unless you want to define art using some specific and strict means that would make it less subjective, such as the technical details regarding how a painting is made or something like that.
>>719557415You could argue that the world in the videogame is a form of art.
>>719547060Videogames can't be art because videogames are interactive.Art is defined by being a person(s) expression of imagination, vision, skill, etc. As soon as someone else, (You) the player, touches the art and starts manipulating it in your own manner, it stops being art and starts being a game.
>>719557507And I say games are objectively toys, and objectively not art. That's how it always was until cunts like you felt ashamed of their hobby and wanted the respect of peopole who should stay away from the hobby for some reason
>>719557892This. Also discourse around "art" in general is mostly bullshit and retarded.Historically, nothing but rich boys engaging in some weird gatekeeping ritual, where they get to decide what constitutes valid expression and what doesn't.Love art. Love aesthetics. Love experiencing it all.Ate critics. Ate navel gazers. ate curators. Simple as.
>>719557442this isn't about ownership it's about the pursuit of conveying an idea or experience. the whole basis behind the body of work existing is that someone deemed it necessary to express something that was outside the bounds of common sensibilities or language. having people gain more out of it through discourse is a nice happenstance but it doesn't garner authority over the original meaning behind that work. it merely adds onto it the fact that artists aren't flawless at conveying their ideas or understanding how people receive those ideas. that's completely normal since they're only human. art can be misinterpreted or misunderstood, and there's no shame in that, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to interpret it how the artist wanted you to, or that it is worthless or pointless to do so. each body of work exists to capture something meaningful to the artist, and while you might find something else that's more meaningful to you, you should be humble enough to acknowledge the original purpose behind that work as well lest you want to end up simply bolstering biases.
Movies can never be art
>>719557560>This. Movies aren't art.Nowadays they aren't, you are right. Since meeting boards makes them and not small teams.>>719557716>Uhh, the bible?Does it work as a story?
>>719558140>Does it work as a story?I would say yes, since it's a fictional story and people swear by it.
>>719557892>Everything is le art therefore all opinions on individual works are moot because it's all the same One of the worst takes itt desu
>>719547060says a non artist
>>719557674A movie, on ideal condition, can capture an idea and convey it to the audience. The audience are making combos between words
Define art. You can all anything fucking art and they can't say you're wrong. So, saying something isn't, or can't be art, is impossible.
>>719558110The movie industry sure has less space for real artistic expression to occur these days, than the video game industry.The video game industry has a pretty low barrier of entry. You can just make a game. Notch was a guy who just made a game, and now his game has it's own movie (which has less artistic integrity than the game).
>>719558058Saying the word "objectively" does not lend your opinion more credence.
>>719558195All art is art. Not everything is art. Everyone knows what art is. A child knows what they're doing when they make art. We don't need to over complicate this.
>>719558048Shit take. Art does not stop being art if you interact with it. Indeed, with some art (like video games) it's the whole point.
>>719557887No the statemente was: games are toys, because their point is what the player does with them and not what the piece itself communciate>>719557903You just proved again that games are toys, thank you>>719558048this
>>719547060>tape a banana on the wall>this is art>randomly splat some paint>this is art>make these things digital>it's no longer artOkay.
>>719558302you said it first, but only I used it correctly
>>719558269when you make a thing so you can show it to other people, that's art
>>719558370Toys are art
>>719547060What difference does it make? We'll be playing vidya regardless.
>>719558048>As soon as someone else, (You) the player, touches the art and starts manipulating it in your own manner, it stops being art and starts being a game.So, if I write on a book or highlight works, literature isn't art anymore? Or listening to audiobooks?What about playing a video or a movie at 2x speed?
>>719558495You can show anyone anything. Which means everything is art.
>>719547060seething dead boomer, oh look, your precious movie art form ate shit because of corporate greed
>>719558187That's because it's a symbol, not because it works as a story.
>>719547060Artfags are retarded and think a banana taped to the wall and a literal urinal are high art lmao it's all pure copium, they whine about vidya because they're too retarded to code
>>719558370>You just proved again that games are toys, thank youI simply called you out for being a moron. If you think that means games are toys, you are open to being wrong
>>719558585>That's because it's a symbol, not because it works as a story.If it wasn't a believable story, it wouldn't have become a story in the first place.
>>719558083if I make a post about liking bananas and you learn that I refer to what most people refer to as apples as bananas would you interpret my post literally or recontextualize it using that information?
>>719558042Every aspect of the video game is art, just not the video game itself. As a sum of its parts and something to be played, they're an activity, not an art.
>>719553224Based, clockwork orange sucks
>>719547060he only played tennis on SNES
>>719558537In those cases, altering the way you experience (incorrectly) the piece of "art" doesn't change it.>>719558582so did gaming>>719558521Only He-Man toys
I always find it funny that these statements are always so blanket and vague and pointless that they are effectively saying nothing at all. The part in OP pic is literally him saying 'no I won't give reasons'.
>>719558425Objectively, I was the only one to use it correctly.Video games affect us as art. They are made like art. We use the language of art to talk about them. For all intents and purposes, they are art. And the only people saying they aren't are using arbitrary definitions that seem to exist primarily for the sole purpose of excluding video games from being art without any further justification or qualification. It is clear that your opinion is informed by everything but an objective evaluation of the medium.
>>719558048Performances, happenings and installations are all interactive retardbro, you just showed everyone you're a pseud
>>719558368This is one of these takes people come up with specifically to exclude video games from being art, not knowing that "interactive art" is like a whole thing in the art world.If someone's perception of "art" is just "painting on wall", they have never interacted with a trained artist or anyone who is actually into art for five seconds.
>>719556454If we're being pedantic you're wrong and obviously ignorant, Art isn't the same as art faggot, read Gombrich.
>>719558610Thank for proving me right again
>>719558354My point is that saying "my Chinese girl cartoon is art" does not place it beyond reproach.
>>719558691They are an art meant to be interacted with.
>>719558576technically yes,if you make a chair with the goal of sitting on it and nothing else that chair is not art,if you make a chair with the primary goal of having it seen, it's artyou can also see it as a sliding scale, where how much thing is art depends on how much it is for showing, versus using
>>719547060>games aren't art because they're a collaborative endeavourHas Ebert ever sat down through the credits of a movie?
>>719558048Weird logic, you assume an individual or groups expression can't use the audiences interaction as a tool for expression when nothing is saying that's the case. Shakespeare wrote with audience reactions in mind, inherently making his work interactive with its audience.
ART
>>719558696>altering the way you experience (incorrectly) the piece of "artLmao, says it all, really
>>719558785Objectively you are wrong and are jsut angy because you were called out for being objectively wrong.>>719558918No you are wrong
>>719558934>waaaaahhh games aren't art they're TOYS FOR CHILDRENWhy are you even here if all you want to do is convince others that the things you're into are toys? Are you projecting some diaper fetish onto everyone else?
>>719558772It's because Boomers are scared of the controller, and don't want to admit they're scared of the controller. Remember how we almost got them to start playing games when the Wii came out, but they didn't know there were other things to play beyond Wii Sports?These people's brains are calcified and they quietly feel a deep suspicion towards anything that doesn't remind them of watching Lone Ranger serials in a penny theater in the 30's. You don't have to let them talk down to you.
>Lives rent free in the heads of gamers foreverI'm thinking Ebert won
>>719547060There's no reason why video games CAN'T be art, to immediately make the exaggerated claim that they can't be really just goes to show your own bias more than anything. At the time of this article Roger Ebert was "shitting in diapers" old, I wouldn't take his opinion on video games as anything other than an indicator of the inevitability of rejecting things at their premise as you get older and more stuck in your ways.Like literally, even if you wanna be a huge stickler about art, if you were to sincerely be open to, and experience What Remains of Edith Finch as a potential piece of art, irregardless of whether you like it or not its hard to say it isn't. It's got a story to tell thats reminiscent of a movie or a novel, that actually makes use of its medium as a video game.
>>719547060Do you honestly expect an ancient boomer to know or care about video games? Is it his station to even talk about them? No. He was not right. He was ignorant, and like all ignorant people, especially old ones, they think they're right about everything.
>>719559080>N-No, you're wrongI'm factually correct fag, educte yourself.
>>719559059You making combos is still not art
>>719559080Seethe, moron. You've got no argument.
>>719559041You forgot AI.
ChatGPT says he's right.Gemini says he's wrong.I will ask Grok what is the truth.
>>719559013MOVIES ARE DIFFERENT! IT'S THE VISION OF ONE PERSON AND THEN THEIR PAWNS MAKE IT HAPPEN!
>>719559009>no officer you don't get it I sent her a dick pic as a form of artistic expression>yes I know there's a restraining order but you see this anon online told me anything can be art if enough people see it and...
>>719558939How is the Chinese girl cartoon not art?
If you think games aren’t art you’re retarded and your definition of art requires pretension
>>719559173ChatGPT is a two faced bitch, it will behave like an agreeable sub ask it the question again but negated and it will backpedal, it behaves like a jeet lmao
>>719559084Gamers are deeply insecure and sheltered. Art sounds unfamiliar to them and carries connotations that they don't like. They don't want to be made to think about things. It's a very sad state of existence.
>half the thread is just one guy over generalizing games as toys from all the babby games he playsYou just know it's some seething tendie lmao
>>719547196Kek
>>719547060>plebertCould not care less what this jawless faggot has to say.
>>719559261This. Gemini is better"X sucks"GPT: "You're right!""X is amazing"GPT: "You're right!"
>>719559215It is art; but it is also vapid lowbrow slop for coomers, not worthy of serious consideration
>>719547060He's right but that shouldn't diminish the fun you had with them
>>719559215He's just a pretentious boomer gatekeeper. Dragon Ball is art.
>>719558403>make these things digital, it's no longer artThis is a surprisingly common take. Had a few people disreguard digital artwork (ie drawings and paintings) because it lacked the physicality of traditional methods. It's taking "not real art" in the most litteral sense possible.
>>719559084You are the one crying because gamers jsut play games instead of fellating their status, faggot
>>719559296I've seen art, like real art in a gallery, that was just crude painting of a man fucking a cow. If people are doing the "games are supposed to be fun, not art" thing, they don't know what art is. They think it means boring shit a teacher made them look at at some point.>oh dude, it's le Monet and his flowers!Yeah, that doesn't encompass all art ever made.
>>719547850>>719547918>>719548679Have another (you), since you retards seem to value them so much you'll pretend to be extra retarded just to get some.
>>719559416>It is art; but it is also vapid lowbrow slop for coomers, not worthy of serious consideration
>>719559296>They don't want to be made to think about thingsI do. Not everyone has the same standard for things. I can go on extensively about the meaning behind Silent Hill 2, but most just want to casually consume it. That's not exclusively endemic to games.
>>719559130Cope, spambot
>>719559309More likely a Call of Duty bro, who thinks you're coming for his masculinity.
>>719548180>is interactivity artful? Yes, ignoring dancing for instance like another anon said, another funny example is Martial Arts. It literally has art in it's name, and a lot of martial arts are flatout impractical and are pure dance forms (i.e. Tai Chi) The funny thing is, unlike video games. The Martial Arts world is desperate to get rid of the "art" moniker (primarily because of the association with McDojos and "spiritual art" like Tai-Chi or Aikido) and now have rebranded themselves as "combat sports" with MMA taking center stage (ironically McDojo slop is starting to slowly take over MMA too).The irony of this is rebranding is, the same types of people who are uninterested in watching Karate or Judo, are also just as likely to not be interested in following MMA. MMA is just as niche as pretty much most of the other martial arts. It's just slightly more popular because it attracts gambling addicts who want to bet money on which fighter will win. But the niche of actual MMA fans is just as small as traditional martial arts enjoyers. Try asking any normal guy to watch some Pride FC matches and see how little of a shit he gives.
>>719559206photography is generally considered art, so taking dick pics is artwhether by my logic, or conventional wisedom
>>719559495Why can't you just do both?
>>719559416I don't care what you think is worthy for "serious consideration". That means nothing to me.
>>719559007Nope, they're an activity that works as a pastime
>>719559559What's your opinion on male circumcision
>>719547060Yes, and that's okay. Chess is pretty respected.
>>719559495>wants all his games to be considered toys>call me the faggotWhatever you say, pal
>>719559650because one thing is playing games, the other is fellating a status, which lured people who changed gaming for the worse and has nothing to do with the actual hobby
>>719559663All art is a pastime you dense twat
>>719553224The Raid, you mean the good action movie? It did kinda suck.
>>719548679I know this is bait but holy shit>JourneyLiterally the same overrated indie trash you referred to.>TLOUWriting and directing so bad that it wouldn't even make it to a pre-2000s TV writer's room. >Death StrandingActually try playing Kojima's games and realize that his writing is on-par with schlocky action movies rather than anything deep, meaningful or artistic.>Cyberpunk 2077Literally based on a schlocky pulpy TTRPG. There's nothing even close to William Gibson, Neal Stephenson or any other Cyberpunk writers in quality.Try better with your bait. At least name-drop something actually good like Legacy of Kain, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, any of the Team ICO games or something by Suda51 if you want to be taken more seriously.
>>719559706Incompatible with western civilization
>>719559765They ARE toys. I don't want tham to be considere anything at all
>>719559789You can just enjoy art, without it being about status seeking. You can do it quietly on your own.
>>719559789Ok, how about this, I don't give a fuck about "status" but realising that games are art allows you to think about them more accurately and you're purposely denying yourself an entire aspect of your hobby to spite some strawman of pretentious art people
>>719559867>They ARE toysJust because your tendies games are toys that doesn't mean it's the same for every game.
>>719553224Gladiator is trash, I agree with him on that. I don't know what he was thinking about the other ones since those are actually great movies, but didn't he change his mind regarding The Thing later on?
>>719559562>spambotFag, I even pointed you towards an author who explains why you are retarded and factually wrong lmaoYou obviously don't know what Art is and what's the distinction between Art and art I'm convinced you have no fucking clue about the topic
>>719559869I do. What does that have to do with games?
>>719559867>I don't WANNAFitting that you fill your life with children's toys then
>>719559867They can be whatever you want them to be, googoogaga bro. After all, games are subjective
>>719559801Foolish statements like that fully disqualify you from this conversation
>>719559998games are art.
>>719559867>they ARE toys>what is a readymadeCope fag you're like those brainlets saying "it's just a can of soup" lmaaaaaaooooooo
>>719547774Legend of Mana exists, so you're wrong.
>>719547060No.
>>719560025Damn, I should've just told you that when you started spouting your nonsense
>>719559921tryign to put your toy on a pedestal is not a part of the hobby. it's just a YOU thing>>719559941just beacuse you want toy to be special doesn't mean they are. I miss the times when my dino toy were super special!
>>719559867ESL browns are incapable of higher thought so of course someone like you would see games as nothing but toys.
>>719554716This and Halo 2
>>719560025It is hard to understate just how unqualified you are to have this conversation.
>>719560025What is it if not a passtime or an amusement?What was the purpose of Shakespeare or a Greek tragedy, back in the day? What was the purpose of a Mozart concert?>no it's about le consideration, and le quiet contemplationBasically no one does that.
>>719559953no, faggot>>719560001you toys aren't special>>719560018then they mean nothign at all, glad we agree. I'll keep playing with vidya since that's their purpose, thanks
>>719555301I wish midwits around the world finally embraced the fact that many things they thought were objective are, in fact, subjective, and despite that truth those subjective things still matter and are worth arguing about and are sometimes even worth enforcing.Morality itself is technically subjective, but that doesn't mean a guy raping your wife "just has an opinion", you should still hammer a piece of rebar up his asshole and shoot him in the head.
>>719547559>FYI the three games mentioned were Waco Resurrection, Flower and Braid...Based Ebert dunking on that unfun shit.
>>719560150>tryign to put your toy on a pedestalI just told you, I don't. Boy, you really resist thinking about things, huh?
>>719547060People unironically said the same thing about novels in the 18th century, and photography/film in the 19th century.
>>719560045it's jsut a can of soup>>719560034nobody cares about your delusions>>719560173pretending your toysa are special sin not higher thought. Yo uare jsut making combos to get coins from dead pixels and having fun.
>>719547060Half right half wrong. Games have art in them obviously the models,animation and even writing are art that should be uncensored and preserved. Games as a whole are not art and the idea that they are is what has lead to the rapid decline in quality of AAA and bloat of the indi scene full of redditor "Mental health" games. Video games are first and foremost entertainment and a product to be enjoyed. If I buy food and it sucks I don't care how passionate the cook was while making it.
>>719547060This nigga wasn't even right about movies
>GAMES ARE TOYS NOT POOPY ART GIMME MILYYYYYYY NOWOWWWWWWWWW
>>719559663How you consume something doesn't make it art or not. That's retarded. Movies aren't less of an art form just because you watched one on someone else's screen on a plane.
>>719560328If we're talking about Warhol, his entire thing is he was making a point about how art was becoming a production line. That's why he called his studio the factory, and painted cans of soup and stuff.See, it's actually clever.
>>719560259Thinking about it led my to the objective truth: games are toys, and nobody except hobby invaders care about their recognition as le artyou are just angry now and you lost the argument hours ago
would dungeons and dragons be considered art the way it requires a lot of imagination to make a character and have them fit within the scenario. It is like on the spot storytelling which I can't see how it wouldn't be art. I see video games the same way but the characters and story are already premade, you are just deciding how it's told, what the character does in each level, what weapons do they use etc.
>>719560427Meta shit.When art lost the art part, art ceased to exist.>aint it clever?no
>>719560543The art part is the fact that he made it.
>>719560427That's the official line anyway. The truth is that people in the 60s were so mentally fucked that Warhol realised that people enjoyed looking at advertisements & posters more than landscapes or portraiture. Duchamp's urinal is a similar case. People were so fucked up after the war that there was something genuinely soothing to them about a plain, white, upturned urinal, as opposed to another classical sculpture depicting a Roman god.
>>719560472You've never had an intelligent thought in your life and you're not even capable of formulating a proper argument, let alone "winning" anything. All you have is your increasingly desperate insistence in the face of the clear facts.
>>719560489D&D isn't art, just like vidya.
>>719560472>hobby invadersHobby invaders were the ones who casualized and devalued the artistic merits gaming had. Most older gamers didn't gaf and focused on playing the good shit, which had infinite more artistic integrity as a byproduct than the modern slop we have to endure to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.
>>719560489Yeah, it's not exactly high art but it's certainly a form of communal art that involves writing and acting, like improv theatre within a given framework.
>>719560575If doing that makes something art, I dare you to post 1 thing that isn't art
>>719560427That other dude got filtered by Warhol of all things lmao
>>719547060No. His fundamental misunderstanding is the idea that art has worth and importance, and therefor must have some sort of strict rules it follows even though he can not define them himself.Art is trash that people put a value on. Art are things that someone finds meaning and value in, despite not offering an objective usefulness. Anything can be art, literally fucking anything. Art is inherently worthless until someone determines that it has worth. This old fart might not think video game have worth, but a shitton of people are willing to pay top dollar for video games so clearly video games are art.
>>719560673Disagreeign with your made up need to have toys be considered art isn't an intelligent thought, I agree. It's basic thinking>>719560708Casualization comes from hobby invaders who want to jump on the new popular hobby bu are ashamed of it because it's nerd shit and want to feel better by claiming it's art
>>719560708true, you can tell these people are scared we're coming to take their Call of Duty away, when Call of Duty itself was the dumb shit that was pushed on us, back when we were all enjoying better and more lovingly crafted stuff like Half Life or Thief.>Nooo! just let me press the button and pew pew kapowy big dick sergent corporal man! No one said you can't, Junior. I'm just not going to respect you for it.Go and buy Peter Griffin in Fortnite.
>>719547060Video games will never be art so long as the face of video games is anti-art corporations like Nintendo and EA.
>>719560837It's still soup. The rest is bullshit agreed upon by con artists.Pay me billions for my soup can, faggot. it's art
>>719560797The hammer i use to bang in nails isn't art. It's a utilitarian tool.Maybe someone's hammer is art, but mine is not.
>>719560959>I'm just not going to respect you for it.Nobody cares about what you respect, habby invader.Fuck off
>>719560921>Casualization comes from hobby invaders who want to jump on the new popular hobby bu are ashamed of it because it's nerd shit and want to feel better by claiming it's artNot really. Most of them are just COD or BRfags that just spend time with their friends online instead of irl
>>719561095So stop worrying about the things I say, and exit the dialogue.
>>719561040But someone made it, therefore it's art according to you. And WarholI made this post, and I demand it to be kept in high consideration
>>719547060ebert is the same retard who thought Dark City was high art, to the extent of recording two commentary tracks for the movie.
>>719561150I'm not the invader, faggot>>719561142It's not the only reason, but yes really. Nobody wants the hobby to be taken seriously by you
>>719560854Right, look at the shifting narrative around "art" being "looted" from the third world.Some old trash that someone threw on the ground hundreds of years ago gradually became regarded as priceless, because rich Europeans thought it was neat, and now people are insisting that they did something immortal, stole items that have some kind of innate spiritual value, and it all needs to be returned.It's all a big joke, past a certain point. You just need the eyes to see.
>>719561250Dark City is great (except that moment), but art tards still belong to the pyre
>>719561282>It's not the only reason, but yes really. Nobody wants the hobby to be taken seriously by youYou just like to argue for the sake of arguing, huh?
>>719547685Not a convincing argument.Movies with mediocre stories are still considered art.
>>719561205It was made for a utilitarian end, and I use it for a utilitarian end. To me, it's a hammer and not art.If someone wants to make a beautiful hammer for the purpose of hanging it on their wall, then that by all logic is a work of art. If someone wants to take a regular hammer and present it as art, even that can be art.Doesn't mean it's any good, mind.
>>719561282You came into the art discussion thread to get mad about art. You are the invader.
>>719560921>Disagreeign with you isn't an intelligent thoughtIndeed
>>719561434That's you in the entire thread>>719561469It doesn't mean it's art either. Otherwise the word "art" wouldn't even exist.
>>719561095I think gatekeeping is kinda retarded but it's extra retarded when it's dumb kids telling their elders within the hobby to get out. I've been gaming since the early 90s. Games are art. Deal w/ it kiddo
>>719561365it must have aged like piss, because I watched it for the first time the other day and it was bland at best. even when giving it allowance for being old and already have inspired a whole generation of movies and ideas.other movies just did it better. Matrix did it better. Terminator was nearly a full 15 years prior and did sci-fi concepts better. Requiem for a Dream did psychosis better.
>>719561610Art is just stuff people make to amuse each other.All of the hoighty toighty high falluting stuff came after the fact. Grug wasn't thinking about pleasing the critics when he smeared his poopoo on a cave wall.
>>719561513You came to the gaming board to get mad about toys. yo uare the invader>>719561518>art-tard can't readlmaoNext time just go for the usual loop of NO Us. It's easier
Video games can have art in them, but video games are NOT art.
>>719561717Stop copying me.
>>719547060no
>>719548180Ebert doesn't understand that the gameplay can be something more than getting a high score and winning.He understands very little about video games in fact to compare them to basketball or mahjong.
>>719561717>You came to the gaming board to get mad about toys.But we're not mad about them. You are.
>>719561662I've been gaming since the 80s. Games are not art. Deal w/ it kiddo>>719561679Movies don't age. If you think they are worse, you just valoued them wrong when they were new
>>719561610>That's you in the entire thread>spends entire thread shitting it up with his arbitrary ideas and throws conniptions with anyone that dismantles themYou're most likely low iq and brown, therefore any irony in your statement will be permanently lost on you.
>>719561836>I've been gaming since the 80sOkay, well, there have been some developments, grampa
>>719561802You reaction to rejection says otherwise, dudette
>>719561887Lmao.>Presents himself as older to get nerd creds.>Presents himself as younger to get nerd credspick one, retard.devolopement for the worse, unless yo uare talking about technology (and no we aren't)
games, regardless of quality, inherently can never be an art form. because the interactive element doesn’t add anything to make its own thing. remove all interactive elements and metal gear is just a movie, so why the interactive element exists at all? gimmicks, it’s like if a movie pauses itself and asks you to solve a little dumb puzzle to resume playing. video games are just that, games. do you think inventing something as chess is an art form? but video games have moving images, just like movies! yes, and chess has little sculptures, just like real sculptures. inventing magic the gathering or any board game is not an art form, it just uses techniques employed in art, technique reproduction by itself is not art, it’s craftsmanship. that’s why game developers are called just that, developers. not game artists. playwrighting isn’t an art form, theater is, it’s a technique that’s part of theater art and doesn’t exist without it, it’s made as a blueprint for the stage, the play itself is the art form. so video games just uses all the techniques without ever becoming art
>>719562007Rejection? Nobody even asked you anything. You're a fossil, a simpleminded buffoon in a world that has long outgrown him, desperately clinging to simple childhood memories of uncomplicated fun and holding that up as the end goal of an entire medium. You're irrelevant. You can either get with the times, or be relegated to the sidelines. The adults can have this discussion without you.
>>719562147>devolopement for the worseCool opinion, but that doesn't change that it gas taken place.
>>719562287>Remove all the visual elements from a movie and it's just an audio play>Remove the dialogue and it's just music
>>719562441what makes movies inherently movie is it’s image. meaning it can’t exist without it. what makes people thing video games are “art” isn’t inherent to video games. dota and league is never used as an example of art. if anything, coding would be more of an art form than anything related to story, a well optimized a game pushes the coding technique, which is a requirement for art, pushing a technique to its maximum, more artful than any story walking sim game. but coding is not art, it’s technique. the elements of video games that make people scream “art” aren’t inherent to video games
>>719562287The fact is that the work Metal Gear Solid only exists in its interactive form, so if it would be art without interaction, I don't see how it's not art with the interaction. You then only have to ask yourself why the author chose to include interactive elements in his artistic work, and with MGS that's actually quite easy to see. It's not just about the story, but about the total experience. Movies work just fine without soundtracks, but it's asinine to say that adding a soundtrack therefore makes it not art.
>>719547196based
>>719562713>what makes people thing video games are “art” isn’t inherent to video games... interactivity?Also, why does that matter lolMovies have acting, photography, music - none of it is completely new
>>719561010>filtered by WarholYou didn't get it, midwitt
>>719547629
>>719561205Some shitposts like the gorilla warfare one are so influential I'd argue they are art, yes.
>>719547060>makes the player/viewer think about concepts or ideas they might have not thought about>makes the player/viewer think about life games can absolutely be art
>>719547685What’s the “story” of Starry Night? Games are a visual, audio, and most importantly INTERACTIVE experience. A good screenplay is merely a component factor in a games artistic merit. Ebert could never see that because his limited experience framed the games he played exclusively against movies.
>>719562713A movie is a sum of it's parts. So is a video game.Quibbling about that for one but not the other is pure hypocrisy.
>>719562878moving image is inherent to the filming camera. a movie also doesn’t need a “moving” image. it needs light and time, duration. a photo doesn’t have duration, a painting doesn’t have duration. a song does, but it doesn’t have image. theater has moving presence and sound, but it doesn’t have light manipulation. light and time is what makes cinema, cinema. interactivity isn’t an art form. if video games are art, then lego is art, as it is just sculptures and sculpting is art. every toy maker is an artist then? video game developers are toy makers, just like hasbro, not artists.
>>719547060Videogames are not inherently art, but games designed to be artistc can be considered art.Videogames are games first and foremost, not art.
>>719563372>interactivity isn’t an art formThis just comes out of nowhere lol. "Duration" is an artform but interactivity isn't? Fuck outta here
>>719548680Michelangelo painted Sistine chapel’s ceiling on commission so I guess that’s not art either
>>719562287>playwrighting isn’t an art form
>>719563372There's certainly artistry in designing something like lego.You can also use lego to create art.
>>719563516Shia Labouf putting a bag on his head and inviting people to call him a faggot is art.
>>719563372>every toy maker is an artist then?yes, what is the argument against this? Woodworking is an art, sculpting is an art, suddenly making a wooden horse isn't art simply because some kid is going to use it to pretend to be a cowboy, that makes no sense
>>719548679>TLOUIt's always funny to see this brought up in "are games art" debates. It's basically a decent hollywood zombie movie brought to game form. If the same story was put into a movie first then it'd be remember in the same vein as something like The Dawn of the Dead remake.
>>719563516you fail to understand that movies is light in a time period. it has a definitive duration. 2 minutes, 2 hours etc. it manipulates light for a specific amount of time through technique, the filming camera, making duration the distinguished characteristic of film. art is pushing this technique to its maximum capacity. like i said, if video games were to be considered art, good coding would be more important to the art form than how good the screenplay is, since the medium that video games exist in, code, is what makes games, games. just like the camera is needed for film. if you remove the interactive aspect of a game, it’s just a film made through code, which then it’s a new technique to make films. interaction through code is essential to video games, you can’t consider metal gear to be art and dota or fortnite not, they are the same medium, the story is irrelevant, just like a shit theater play will still be theater art. and interaction through code can’t be considered an art form, just like legos can’t be considered art sculptures. it’s not using the medium to convey a message
>>719563372I'd say montage is what makes cinema distinct from other arts.Anyway, saying interactivity isn't an art form is stupid because interactive art exists and involve the audience.Also you can take legos and make art with them, it's a century old concept, ever heard of a "readymade"?
>>719564048I fail to understand nothing. Movies are just photographs or paintings shown in rapid succession. No one cares about "story" or "messages", those aren't the point of art - though games are certainly capable of having them. Not all movies have them either.
>>719564018a wooden toy horse is a mimicry of a real horse. it doesn’t convey any artistic intent but to evoque the idea of a horse through sculpting, a technique. a straight pole is made out of the same technique. is every carpenter an artist then? message through the medium is necessary for it to be art. the text on a bottle of shampoo isn’t literature, it’s just conveying a message, an instruction, without artistic intent
>>719564305>No one cares about "story" or "messages", those aren't the point of art What a fucking stupid thing to say
>>719564048>if video games were to be considered art, good coding would be more important to the art form than how good the screenplay isAlso lmao, do you really think screenplay isn't important to most movies?
>>719547060The aesthetics of video games are in gameplay. People mistakenly think "art" is purely audiovisual storytelling experiences, and people who want games to focus on this aspect should not have an opinion on them and should stay as far away from this medium as possible. If your game isn't fun to replay then it's not art.
I'm not going to let a lowly critic decide for me what is and isn't art.
>>719564390screenplay has nothing to do with movies being an art form. andy warhols meme 8 hour empire state recording is a movie. doesn’t move at all, no script, it’s just light and duration. michael snow la region central is just a spinning camera recording
>>719563012This is a perfect example of someone with terrible taste in video games
>>719564387What is the "story" of a piece of classical music? What is the "message" of a Kandinsky? Stories and messages are nothing but yet more elements of art in service of their actual purpose. Like I said, not even all movies have a story.
>>719564564There ya go, proved my point for me. Screenplays aren't necessary but they sure are popular and the thing most people will appreciate movies for. Same for games. Having a screenplay isn't necessary but having one also doesn't suddenly disqualify them from being art.
>>719547779>nierYour opinion literally doesn’t matter lol
>>719547685Art isn’t about telling a story.If you want a story, read a book.
I can argue that Mirror’s Edge is an art piece, most other games I just cannot.
>>719564746the point that the medium that makes video games, video games, interaction through code, isn’t used in any way shape or form to convey artistic meaning. you’re not an artist for inventing the game of chess, even tho is an impressive feat. there is a name for that kind of stuff, GAMES. inventing a new version of soccer isn’t an art form, it’s a GAME. video games are video GAMES. like i said, adding a puzzle so a movie resumes playing doesn’t make this new medium a new art form. dota is a game, monster hunter is a game, just like soccer or chess. is soccer art because theater is art? you can have a soccer match in a theater play. is every soccer player an actor and artist? is every game maker an artist?
>>719564630You’re further proving your retardation because lots of classical music does have story in their Latin chorus. But your points are irrelevant anyways, because meaning and narrative don’t exclusively mean “linear literal story.” There’s narrative to still paintings like there’s narrative to a movie or a game or an album, and it’s all there to evoke meaning, to deliver a message. Your scope is limited like Eberts.
>>719565157>interaction through code, isn’t used in any way shape or form to convey artistic meaningLol yeah it is though. Your ignorance of the medium is not an argument.>there is a name for that kind of stuff, GAMESYeah, uh, there is a name for movies too
>>719553139Yes obviously, you only don't agree because you want calling something "art" to be a pretentious way of saying something is good.
>>719565195>lots of classical music does have storySo it's not inherent? Oh... awkward.>There’s narrative to still paintings like there’s narrative to a movie or a game or an album, and it’s all there to evoke meaningAnd yet you still wilfully refuse to understand how interactivity does the same thing. Literally everything is potentially meaningful in your eyes except that. Why? It just is, okay!?! Because otherwise video games would be art :(
>>719547060>>719547559>>719547685>>719548180>>719548694Reminder that Roger Ebert only ever played, Cosmology of Tokio (which he probably didnt even see in its entirety) and Myst which he was too retarded to finishif you put weight on the words of this jawless dead retard you are beyond salvation
>>719547060He correctly characterizes video games. He's wrong for pretending movies are meaningfully different, he wants you to believe his chosen form of idle entertainment is actual deeply enlightening.
>>719564615post your hand and salary and then i'll concede
>>719565157But you can use interaction and gameplay to convey feelings.Also the point of soccer or chess or dota is to win but not all video games are about winning.
>>719565532Hey, those are both awesome games, anon.
>>719547060Who cares. Art is dead. And AI killed it.
>>719547060Art is a gay meme word with no real meaning that is only ever used by idiots to say "I really like this" but in a deep sounding way.
>>719565440But I do think games are art. I’m not the guy you were arguing with. That doesn’t mean your point wasn’t fucking stupid
>>719547060NoMaybe if you're particularly pretentious about what counts as art, in which case lmao at moving pictures
>>719565912I'm still right tho
>>719547060art doesn't mean anything anymore anyways. like, if video games were art, what would it change? ai has blatantly shown that the average person has no respect for or an interest in art. they only care about content to mindlessly consume. "art" is nothing more than pretty pictures and sounds that keep boredom away for 99% of people.
>>719548680>it's meant to entertain you so you can't really call it artSo it can only be art if it's made to bore you?
>>719566346Your last argument was “well my being wrong PROOVES games are art!” Yes. Games are art, and you were wrong.
>>719565157> like i said, adding a puzzle so a movie resumes playing doesn’t make this new medium a new art formthis implies you admit video games are an art form, just not a NEW art form.
>>719566541What high school does to a mf
>>719566550Yes, this is a technique known as the Socratic method
>>719565087Is that the only game you ever played that wasn't Call of Duty or Battlefield?
>>719547060No, videogames cannot be art but mostly because of the same shit movies are going through where they've become so expensive and corporate art is impossible.
>>719566791It’s also called making a bad point, getting called out for it, and shifting the point so you don’t have to admit fault.
>>719565314pressing a button doesn’t convey anything through meaning. any meaning you get is through the image that you are “rewarded”, winning if you will, for pressing the button. it’s like adding a match three puzzle before an emotional scene plays in a movie. the act of pressing the button, which is what makes games inherently games, will never be an art form. solving a 4000 piece puzzle isn’t an art form even tho it’s a painting. a puzzle piece isn’t a separated art form from painting and doesn’t make a puzzle maker an artist for cutting the painting into multiple tiny little pieces. if you develop a video game of putting the mona lisa together or an original painting, are you a painter now? or is the painting, which is an art form, just part of your neatly assembled product through code? having parts made out of “art” techniques doesn’t make it art. just like moving isn’t art, while dancing is. a marketing ad isn’t art even tho it’s film
>>719547060>>719547181Glad that he and that other faggot Siskel are both dead and burning in Hell where they belong while Ebert should have spent the rest of his life cosplaying as Trap-Jaw and is the only man in history to wear down his entire jaw from inhaling black cocks like a fish drinks water!!!FACT!!!
>>719566896My point was that art has many qualities which Anon dud not see because his definition was myopic. You agree with me because I was using his definitions, which I was using to demonstrate their limits. See, Socratic.
>>719567006You can’t dissect interactivity out of games as the lone defining factor because you need to be interacting with SOMETHING. Games force interaction WITH visuals, music, narrative and that interaction, like the subjective interpretation of a painting, creates meaning.
>>719547060I would be inclined to agree if not for what Roger Ebert considers to be art. Cinema is a garbage medium that relies entirely on high tech gadgets just like video games does. Going to a place and pressing buttons on machines is not art but a simulacra of painting where you only do composition without the rest of the art labor. Not a huge step from going to an office and arranging 3D models on a computer.So from an elitist position, yes video games are not art, it's entertainment that has its roots in artistic practice. But so is cinema and photography - even theater is a bastardization of literature. But if cinema is considered art, then video games beat it on its own turf as the clearly superior tech-art medium. Cinema becomes just a blip in the process of essentially making literature and paintings interactive for entertainment value.
>music is art>Art is art>Movies are art >acting is artCombine everything and it's ..not art?
>>719547060I hope so. Art is for liberal faggots.
>>719567006>pressing a button doesn’t convey anything through meaning.Says you>any meaning you get is through the image that you are “rewarded”, winning if you will, for pressing the buttonNot necessarily; but even then, that's meaning>it’s like adding a match three puzzle before an emotional scene plays in a movie.This is a reductionistic strawman. And after this you just repeat yourself.Have you considered that the emotion can reside within the act itself? MGS 2 tantalising you with an unwinnable boss fight, New Vegas making you leave the gold behind, indeed, Spec Ops The Line making you press the button. Are you winning, son?
>>719567142No, your point was >No one cares about "story" or "messages", those aren't the point of artSocratic method requires an informed understanding that you’re disproving a false claim. this is just saying something wrong.
>>719567006>the act of pressing the button, which is what makes games inherently games, will never be an art formwhat about pressing the keys on a keyboard, does that not make playing the piano an art form? you can deconstruct any action to make it look stupid it doesn't mean you're making any coherent argument. playing the piano is art because of what comes after you press the keys right, and it matters in what order you press those keys to make an organized pattern of sounds that we call music right? Don't video games work the same way, where you press buttons and those buttons dictate what happens on the screen. Those buttons can be used to make certain pixels move certain ways that we recognize as having importance in regards to telling a story or just make Mario jump around
This used to wind me up a lot more as a kid but now I just kind of don't care.
>>719549531>If he lived to see the MCU he'd say movies are no longer art eitherHe lived long enough to see Kick-Ass though.
>>719551598>character action gamesi swear you trannies ruin everything you touch
>>719567006>solving a 4000 piece puzzle isn’t an art form even tho it’s a painting.Yes, and painting a wall isn't art, yet it's still painting, which is an art form like you said. What's your point?Not all video games are meant to be art, not all interactivity is meant to be art, not all painting is meant to be art, not all dancing is meant to be art, yet some of it is.>a marketing ad isn’t art even tho it’s filmSo you understand but can't apply your own logic to video games, because...? Amazing...
>>719547060Videogames are the penultimate sum of human expression, the next step is full dive virtual reality.I'll give him this; gatcha games are as artistic as a homeless man shooting heroin....Holy shit, I'm convinced, videogames are art!
>>719567543But I gave examples of art that lacks a story or a message. You simply responded by expanding the definitions of those things to encompass "all meaning" - which is not how they were previously used, and even then I'm not entirely convinced. You mention Latin choruses, for example; but what of the many pieces that lack those? Certainly, music is evocative of emotions, sensations, feelings; but is that equivalent to a "message", let alone a story? I think that is untenable. So, it may be meaningful, but its meaning is not derived from either story or message. Which proves my point that those are just potential avenues to meaning.
>>719567006>pressing a button doesn’t convey anything through meaning.Yes it does. Thanks for showing you're a pseudointellectual.> moving isn’t art, while dancing is. Lmao, you keep throwing egg on your face.
If something is done with an observer in mind. Then it's art.The observer can even be the self.
>>71956812324h newsfeed is art, nice
>>719547060That hand doesn't match. The article was published before he had his stroke.
>>719568228Rape for you.
>>719567680piano is an instrument, playing the piano, the musician is the artist. not the piano maker. video game players aren’t artists, they are players. you as a game player is closer to kane than the street corner artist. kane isn’t an artist for playing soccer just like you aren’t for playing games. and whoever invents soccer isn’t an artist either. what you all fail to see is that game making itself can never be art. idk why you have an inferior complex to it, since “movie games” which could be called just movies is some of the worse games you can possibly play. video games are games and the best ones use that to the fullest. being art doesn’t make it enjoyable or better. kojimbo says he is a movie maker, sure, be an artist. you are a hack game developer.
>>719568974>what you all fail to see is that game making itself can never be art.For the same reason I fail to see unicorns.
>>719567831>trannies outta nowhereTrannies play gacha these days. Only trve patricians still play dmc and ng
>>719547060Nope, but just because something is art doesn't automatically mean it's good, either.
>>719547060he died before project nortubel was made
>>719547060art is a gay meaningless term for pretentious autists and tax cheatsvideo games weren't art but they are now because they're fucking shit
I like that the "NOT ART" crowd is an uneasy alliance between pseuds who seem to hold art in some esteem though they don't really know what it is, and insecure gamers who despise artLike the KKK teaming up with Black Nationalists because they both want blacks out of America
He was a staunch trans ally of representation and color
>>719570828>Like the KKK teaming up with Black Nationalists because they both want blacks out of AmericaGeorge Lincoln Rockwell.
>>719548180I’ve engaged with it multiple times and no one has an actual rebuttal. It’s a very flimsy argument, it’s based on the idea that all art is the same and is engaged and judged the same way. Which is retarded since you wouldn’t judge a painting the way you would a book or a song the way you would a movie.
He was a staunch trans ally of representation and color solidarity
>>719547060Sage
>>719570828George Washington Carver.
>Out of touch old fart stubbornly refuses to understand a new medium >Barely engages with said medium because he doesn't "have the time" (ie. doesn't care)>Admits he's being a pretentious know-nothing and doesn't have a good argument on what constitutes as "art">Concludes by throwing up his arms and saying "Yeah, sure. Whatever. I don't care."It's alway the insecure types who act like contrarian bitches. You'd just know he would've sucked off TLoU if he were alive to see it.
>>719574223He would have fellated GRRM for sure, but not because he’s a good writer but because they both rape kids
>>719547060>kike>telling anyone what art islmaohow would he know?
>>719547060Art is art even if it's low brow and stupidNovels, opera, stage plays, cinema etc. All started out as entertainment for complete knuckledraggers; games just need kore time to improve as a mediumThe fact that this guy would not listen or respond to any criticism of his viewpoint is proof that he is a gigantic fucking retard who just wanted to stroke his ego
>>719576205There’s already plenty of games that prioritize art over many aspects of standard game design. Hell, Call of Duty 24 is no less art than your standard capeshit blockbuster.
>>719547779This. Art doesn't need some old fuck to validate it. Art is when a human creates something to emotionally express themselves and reach other people."Soul" is literally what art is. Thats why corporate boardroom created games aren't art but games with a single clear vision are art.On top of that there are certain experiences you cannot replicate in other artforms the same way. Something like Rain World wouldn't work without the interactivity to really sell the feeling of being some rat in a sewer system trying to survive and understand a higher purpose.Ultimately, trying to teach someone the meaning of video games as an art form who never has played any will never work since more than other media, video games rely on a lot on pre-existing conventions and a general understanding of how to interact with them. It's like throwing a book at a toddler and them just looking at the shape of the words.
>>719553074>YES games are art, but that's not the issue; most games are BAD ARTThats a take i agree with strongly. In a similar vein this also applies to a lot of modern art which tries to be all pseudo intellectual but usually can be reduced to "society bad" or "really makes you think" like the banana glued to a wall. It is art because it was specifically prepared to evoke a message and stimulate to think, but ultimately the message isn't that special, just a bit subversive.
>>719557892For me its simple. Intentional fanservice done by the author because he enjoys it? Art.Fanservice which was suggested by an editor to market something? Not Art.Which is also one thing that pisses me off about certain animes when they have the quota fanservice instead of it being well integrated.
movies are shittier than games, 99% of movies made in the last 10 years are unwatchable, and most of top rated movies of all times are very mediocre.
video games are not art, but they can contain art.
>>719547060Yes, but these threads will continue to be madePlotfags, immersionfags, and soecfags will continue to disagree And the industry will continue to have Duckmans and JimbosBut gaming's been dead since gen 7, so just as well, I suppose
>>719547060I can agree with that IF you also agree that TV shows and movies aren't art. That way, we can group all forms of non-productive and degenerative entertainment as non-art.
>>719547060he was very wrong..but there is a legit point that most video games just utterly fail atI'll let some other pretentious, but correct, asshole explain:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zEG_DoLFQE
>>719565719they are, but the retard couldnt even finish them properly yet decides to criticize videogames as a whole without actually engaging with the medium. He was a hack fraud at the same level of youtube critics of today
>>719547060In the way that he and everyone thinks of video game being capable of being "art" in that they tell a good dramatic story, yes. The inherent nature of interactive media destroys any attempt to send a real "artistic" message though because you're going to be having everyone just fucking around in the game not caring about whatever stupid story is going on.
>>719547685Baba Is You is art and doesn't have a story at all.
>>719562287there are certain experiences you can only deliver through the interactiveness. Sure your average playstation exclusive would work just as fine as a movie, but something like lets say outer wilds has a story that cannot be told the same way in a movie form. You can replicate certain beats, but you cannot replicate the experience of being in it and being stuck trying to figure out shit yourself.
>>719577981And that's why we have yt channels dedicated to stripping out all the gameplay so you can just enjoy the cutscenes.
>>719555570underrated
>>719547060Don't care. Just play and have fun.
>>719547685You just haven't played enough videogames, then. There's a ton of semi-obscure Japshit out there that tells a more moving story than all of American literature post 1980s combined.
>>719577981>The inherent nature of interactive media destroys any attempt to send a real "artistic" message though because you're going to be having everyone just fucking around in the game not caring about whatever stupid story is going on.It's projection. He says video games aren't art because films are devoid of artistic merit.The purpose of art is to engage the audience and allow them to think for themselves what to think as their own pace.Books, you turn the page. You control the pace of the experience as it unfolds and you imagine how it all looks and sounds. Your interpretation of the text is your own, not guided by authorial intentions or director's whims.Painted art is static, but rich in detail. You control how your eyes scan the work and what importance, if any, each feature has in the final composition. Some may be designed to draw your attention, but you can deliberately focus elsewhere and find a subtle rebel's prize in what you thought was background noise. Whether you look for or find it is up to you.Live music is dynamic and reacts to the audience, the mood of the room and feeling of the zeitgeist. Lyrics might remain the same, but the the performance yields to the energy of the moment. Recorded music is nothing but ambient wallpaper, a postcard for the real event in your memory or for a time you missed and will never know.Video games offer a virtual dynamic artpiece, which you're free to explore the intended path or do as you please with the camera and controls. You are the director and editor, and you alone should determine what is or is not important to your experience and at what pace it should be.Film, you can only start or pause. The pace is set, the intention is clear. The director points you to what you should see, to how you should feel, to what you should think. Your only control is to stare; silently, obediently, or look away and miss everything.All film, and all video games mimicking it, are garbage propaganda. Not art.
