Video GamesArt or Toys?
>>720016554toysnot because the demographics or anything, just because they're interactive in nature
>>720016554products. There's space for art in it, but at the end of the day you either need to be subsidized 100% by the government or some company or you need to make a game people will want to spend time on and play. A lot of devs forget they're making a luxury product that is bought primarily by the working class and you need volume to make your money back. Shit nowadays companies seem to forget that too
>>720016554The best games of all time had the "toy" mindset in mind.
>>720016554Since when has art needed to be profitable to count as art?
>>720016554Toys but the guys in op's pic sound like a faggot who just made a shitty game
>>720016554toys first and foremost, theyre supposed to be funif it happens to be art on top of that? i guess thats fine as long as it doesnt detract from it
>>720016692Exactly. COYA books are exclusively for kids. The moment you add the interactivity with buttons then a story becomes bing bing wahoo. It's impossible to take seriously.
Fart
>>720016554Toys. Calling video games art has brought the absolute worst people in the world into the space and has caused them to ruin the medium.
>>720016554The answer is "Yes".The question seems to very foolishly assume that toys can't be artistic.
>>720016554He should've become a preacher instead of a game dev. Games are systems and rules and player agency.
didn't even bother mentioning how you win or lose. Guy doesn't know what a game is
>>720016554YIIK really should have been a VN or a point and click adventure or something if he wanted to get his point across. The RPG mechanics, battle loading/speed, enemy types, and so on were so phoned in on release it was painful. Even the clunky old RPGs it was inspired by like Earthbound are genuinely just more interesting to play. The small handful of people who wanted to actually engage the story on its own terms and give it a chance were filtered by the plodding slog of questionable decisions that constituted the actual game design.
>>720016554I think neither toy nor art are particularly well defined.
He does have a point. Gamers refuse to actually take anything at face value no matter the tone or subject matter. Heavy Rain is a perfect example. A game about a man losing his family and desperately trying to save them yet most discussion of the game is >LOL PRESS X TO JASON!!!! So how the fuck should you incorporate narrative into a video game? If you do it like David Cage games then people will just say >Oh QTEs are annoying, why do I have to press buttons to do mundane things?But then if you do it like oldschool Kojima and have clearly separated cutscenes and gameplay then people just go>Oh it's a movie game, why isn't it letting me play? Why are the scenes so long? And of course nowadays there's the third option which has become the most common of in-engine "walk and talk" segments to outright force players to get engaged with the narrative, and those get complained about too. So yes, gamers don't want anything resembling art. They just want to shoot at things.
>>720023032Well can Cinema be art then? A lot of artsy movies will just fly over people's head.I think it's more of a modern audience thing than videogame thing.
Art isn't even real. People just make stuff. A painting or a videogame are just neat things made by a person, having meaning or depth is just a feature like rumble or multiplayer.
>>720016554lmao, Andrew's just pissy that everyone hated his shitty game, Alex wasn't just a shitty person, he was downright annoying, he wouldn't shut the fuck up, and he never "transforms", he just gives up and tells you to not follow his example
>>720023032>narrativein no other medium are plot beats considered as art. "narrative"? fuck you. heavy rain aspired to be an incredibly vapid and shitty movie. this is the issue. what "art" games aspire to be is the worlds shittiest, most imbecilic b-flick or self-published fantasy novel.a cave schmup is a vastly superior aesthetic experience than yiik or heavy rain or this war of mine or whatever, and more meaningful, too.
>>720024740And here we have an example of that subhuman which gets offended at any sort of narrative. It tries to downplay the narrative in gamea by saying "but it's always le bad cause I don't like it!", further proving that it doesn't actually want to properly engage with these things. I would suspect this thing hasn't even seen a film, let alone watched a book.
>>720016554Mass produced consumer slop designed to get you addicted and invested like a cult.I know this and can still enjoy them.
>>720023032Heavy Rain is shit and would be panned if it were a mystery novel or film.It outright lies to you to hide the killer's identity.
>>720025018a poet would spit in your face if you aired this idea of "narrative" to them, you know. go on, tell me what that book you're reading is, then. is it an epic brandon sanderson? maybe 12 rules for life, or roman/nazi pop history? why don't you share those great, artistic narratives with us, huh?
Don't know don't care. How's that?
Games are art because art is creative expression through some sort of medium i.e. writing/cinema/painting/sculpture/dance etc.People have just gotten into a brutal mind loop of thinking art has to mean "Really good deep art". It's the equivalent of sneering at a honda civi as not being a "real car" because it's not some balls to the wall muscle car. But you'd rightly think someone is insane for saying "sedans aren't cars"The weird desire by gamers and developers to be considered GOOD ART is born of insecurities about being seen as nerdy losers.
>>720025202In what world do you live where poems don't have a narrative? A story being told? Even in the simplest ones they're usually evocative of a moment in time or something the poet is beholding.
>>720016554>NOOOOO MY GAME FAILED NOT BECAUSE IT"S SHIT AND TERRIBLY WRITTEN, UGLY, AND UNFUN BUT BECAUSE IT WAS TOO HIGHBROW. THESE IDIOTS DON'T APPRECIATE ART!hmmm
>>720025340I saw that, bitch. I will face-fuck you tonight.
Games could have been art but gamers didn't let them.
>>720016554>Make a bad game>"I've wanted to explore the unseen depths of what bad games meant for us, the player and the developers, and why we are so often against each other. In my opinion, wrongly. My narrative focused on on post-modern philosophy and how we could all accept each others, if only things such as 'good' games weren't paned as 'good' games. There is no such things as 'good' games. I've created a bad game in order to make the point that you can't understand my creative visionsure dude
>>720024740I do rank Espgaluda higher than Heavy Rain but I enjoy both.
>>720016554YIIK I.V. is a good game, and I'm planning on making a YouTube video explaining my theory and explanation on what I believe is happening in YIIK's narrative and metanarrative.
>>720023835He says has to transform, not that he does transform. YIIK is explicitly about a person that has arrested development. This has always been the plot point of YIIK since the beginning.
>>720016554I feel like that whole discussion is pointless, because whatever you call it won't change how you interact with games anyway.But I think they aren't art. I don't think art should be interactive. I don't think art should have random elements or that it should differ in any significant way for people. I don't think a piece of art can be made by a hundred people. It should be a single person's vision, a window to their soul. I don't think art can be mass produced either. I don't consider movies art either.
>>720016554He was right to be mad, Yiik has like 90 max players on Steam and millions of people who have a super uninformed opinion on what the game is about
>>720025804I feel like people forget the first controversy with YIIK was the game asking what name your parents gave you. People got pissed about a simple question that snowballed into much worse shit, like accusing the game of endorsing pedophillia when there's no proof of that happening in game. Hell most of the people that have an opinion on YIIK usually have it from someone who almost vehemently hates it or just didn't care for rpgs to begin with.
>>720025804True Art is never understood by the plebs. Only high IQ people can even understand what Andrew tried to make with YIIK, the depth of his storytelling, and sadly, the world is empty of the great minds that could understand YIIKIt could have been the greatest piece of fiction ever created by mankind, if only acknowledged. But the world never acknowledged it. If only. If only they understood. The vision, the greatness, the sheer greatness of YIIK. I'm flabbergasted even 90 people in the entire world managed to understand the greatness of YIIK, to be entirely honest, and happy too
>>720023032>And of course nowadays there's the third option which has become the most common of in-engine "walk and talk" segments to outright force players to get engaged with the narrative, and those get complained about too.Those are by far the worst. They aren't gameplay so they're fucking boring, they aren't cutscenes so there's no interesting cinematography and they can't be skipped either. They're lazy, intrusive, and needed to stop a decade ago.
>>720016554>Game gets criticized>THIS is why games can't be art >:(Idk bro sounds like the opposite to me.
>>720026924Ok but like if you made a FPS game and then people started criticizing it because “it puts too much emphasis on landing headshots and not enough on grinding xp and there’s no magic” you’d maybe think people are being at least a little retarded right?
They're toys, for kids. Now fuck off art fags.
>>720027336maybe he should have written a character study instead of making a rpg if he wanted his work to be judged by its merits as a character study and not by its merits as a rpg
Anything can be art if it's creator deems it so. The mistake a lot of people make is thinking the label of "art" holds intrinsic value on it's own. Art can be good, and art can be bad. To call something art isn't some form of praise or glamorous label that should be respected. If the game dev intended for their game to be seen as an art piece, then it's an art piece.
>>720026924At first it was criticized for retarded shit for example the quoted post in OP's pic is out of context and isn't the full context.
Are toys not art?
>>720016554Disco Elysium had a bad guy as an antagonist and everyone loves that.
>>720023032Using a David cage game as an example is embarrassing because they’re all bad.The Room is about a guy killing himself, but we laugh at it because it’s bad, like Heavy Rain.
>>720027365art can be for kids. are cartoons not art?
>>720027598People criticize Van Gogh for not painting realistically. Do we care what those people think?
>>720016554I couldn't care less if they are art or not, but what does people not liking the premise of his game's story (if that is even the case) have to do with games being art or not? Is he retarded or what?
>>720027484Not even the most diehard Yiikfags think the game has good RPG systems on the original release, that wasn’t peoples’ main complaint
The true reason video games aren't art yet is because none of the self-proclaimed "artists" are very good at art. Then they get upset because people don't like their dogshit.
>>720016554His mistake wasn't thinking that video games are art. His mistake was making a bad video game and bad art.
>>720016554They are games. And that doesn't make them lesser.Things such as sports or chess are games and are respected. Hell, the game from which Monopoly was based upon was a critic on capitalism and its competitive nature, so even games had something to say about life.If anything, art is overrepresented.
>>720027778Because people were bitching about the game in regards to asinine and outright untrue complaints extrapolated from not liking the MC or being triggered by certain things. See >>720025934
>my game is shit and people think it's shit? How could this be!?
>>720016554They're entertainment, just like books, movies or musicthe level of intellectual content is entirely dependent on the creator..I don't like pretentious indie devs like that FEZ guy and whoever this one is.Games are absolutely art, (to someone)Either in "craftsmanship" (design, music) or writingAnyone who doesn't agree that games can be art is a fool, even at their worst, games CONTAIN art, and whether you consider the game itself art or just the stuff in it doesn't really matter, does it?If I had to push only one game as an example of videogames being art, it'd have to be "Everything."That game is hardly a game, and more about "le deep think" and exploration/studying/learning, in tiny scale and massive scale - as art, it is stunning, but as a videogame, it's pretty ass
His mistake is assuming that calling his game art is a shortcut to being good.
>>720028120He never said his game was good or perfect though. He even says that in the full rant that is frequently cut short.
>>720023032>People dont like movie games or bad games in generalSHOCK AND HORROR, you are a giant faggotry retard if you actually believe this shitty bait of yours.
>>720028102I think the best thing a game that wants to also be seen as a piece of thought provoking art is not sacrifice one for the other. Video games as a medium are primarily meant to garner direct enjoyment from the interactive experience. If your artsy game sucks to play, I consider it bad art. A dev that tries this and doesn't always hit the mark is Suda51. A lot of his games seem like they're trying to say something really profound and deep but the gameplay almost always fucking sucks.
Video games are a creative medium and in theory any creative medium can be used to produce art.
>>720021569Could you write something more wrong than that post? You're a mixture of a kike and an Australian.
>>720028241>Suda51What profound and deep message was in Garcia Fucking Hotspur's boner becoming the big boner?
The YiiK guy was just sour because his game was a pretentious piece of shit
>>720016554This dumbass didn't want to make a game, he wanted to write a story and have everyone suck his dick about how profound it was. The problem was that his story has been done a million different times already so he thought he could cheat the system by making it a game instead. Games can be art, they can be toys and they can also be soulless fanfic tier garbage written by complete hacks.
>>720028396Johnson is a dick figuratively and literally at times. The whole story and journey of shadows of the damned also got ruined by EA. However, it was instead turned into how a woman who is seen as a damsel was originally just a brutal warrior who had to fight die and repeat and became so traumatized by it she refuses to fight. By the end she goes through a mental breakdown and fights Garcia in the end because of it.
>>720028469Yiik relies on being an interactive medium for the player to be able to figure out what (the hell) is going on I don’t think it’s really been done other than superficial similarities
People make fun of YIIK because it has a dumb name and is so drenched in that particular flavor of millennial "beards, bacon, and vinyl records" hipsterism that has been mocked for decades that it's impossible to take seriously.
>>720028589YIIK is explicitly making fun of and poking fun at that bullshit but most people don't realize that because most people just look at the mc and leave it at that.
>>720016554>Are paintings art or just pleasant to look atOp is a fag, and so the anons falling for it
>>720028589If only, people, could understand the greatness of YIIK >>720025972Shaking my head right now, if only.
>>720025018Do you also think that music needs lyrics and books need pictures? Idiot.
>>720016554Skill issueLuke was a manchild piece of shit but people still stick for his journey till his transform
>>720028637Considering it's a handful of people at best trying to change the narrative it doesn't seem like you're really missing out by not looking any deeper.
>>720028589>Alex is a pretentious hipster douchebag>The devs made him look like a pretentious hipster douchebag>People somehow come to the assumption that Alex being a pretentious hipster douchebag was an accident when the original version of the game had this line in the first 20 minutes
>>720028817Luke literally did nothing wrong and Akzeriuth was demonstrably the fault of everyone EXCEPT him.
my favorite example of mass failed media literacy is everyone having a murderboner to go up on that mountain and kill micah after arthur said don't look back like thirty timessame people gleefully gunned down ross without understanding jack was dooming himself the same way his father and arthur had
>>720028920I think the bottom line is, even if your character is someone we're meant to hate, they should still be enjoyable to follow. Alex can be a hipster faggot but there needs to be something to him that makes us care. Why would anyone care about Alex or his adventures?
>>720016692I don't think this distinction is enough. Are interactive exhibits not art then, but toys? Because they exist, you know.
>>720028964so what, it was a badass ending
>>720028637>>720028920It's not just Alex that's hipster. It's the whole game.
>>720028993Maybe I'm strange for this but I actually can enjoy protagonists that are in a similar way to alex. Hell people can enjoy characters that are insufferable as a protagonists but the main difference is Alex is explicitly made to be extremely unlikeable with a few redeeming traits you'd have to pay attention to to even notice. He isn't neku because he is not comparable to him unless you look at unlikability at surface level when there is layers of it.
>>720028993I didn't like Alex, I wanted to find out what was going on with the plot.You're missing the point though, plenty of people complained about how Alex being a douchebag was a reflection of the dev being a shitty person because they were completely oblivious to it Alex's character being deliberate (and everyone else calling out his bullshit repeatedly), which is the entire reason the quote in the OP exists.
IGNORE ONISM MAN THREADSREPORT ONISM MAN THREADSDO NOT REPLY TO ONISM MAN THREADS
good games are toys.non-games are art.
Simone was never Michael and is Michael's little sister.
>>720017635There's nothing about profitability in the quote though
>>720029191>Alex is explicitly made to be extremely unlikeable with a few redeeming traits you'd have to pay attention to to even noticeThat's putting a ton of faith in not only players to want to look under the surface of a grating character, but yourself being able to create something that would make them want to
>>720029198you can't just make a bad video game with an extremely unlikeable sociopathic main character and just call it "art" and everyone who doesn't understand the depth of your main character is below humanyou can'tthat's not how it workthat's not how it should work, you just can't in God given earth
>>720029336>emails you get change from Simon to Simone
>>720029198I don't agree with people's complaints about Alex being shitty being an inherent flaw of the game or a reflection of the devs, I just find him to be an utterly uninteresting character with no draw. What doesn't help is that none of the side characters are either well written enough to counterbalance him or critical enough to consistently call him on his bullshit to facilitate character growth. And on top of that the one big "we don't like Alex" moment in the game is one of the only fucking times Alex reacts justifiably in the whole story.
>>720016554a good toy IS art
>>720029198You can't really fault people for thinking Alex is a self insert of the dev instead of being a deliberately created character. It wouldn't be surprising for this kind of game by a millenial delevoper, which is why the first instinct is to write it off.There's just very little reason to give the game a chance beyond surface level impressions, and this shouldn't have surprised the dev.
>>720029121>john's face when he peers through the barn door and realizes he gets to clock out a beloved hero outlaw like arthur instead of standing around bored as a rancher for three decades
>>720029452>You can't really fault people for thinking Alex is a self insert of the devPeople literally spent years posting this image and claiming it was Andrew Allanson when it's just some random guy who looks like Alex.
>>720029382Nta but Alex has the majority of lines in the game there’s no way to play the game and not understand Alex’s deal at least to some degree, there’s a part where he talks about trying to reinvent himself in college and failing which I think most people can relate to.Yiik might only resonate with people who both have issues and are aware of them
>>720029382>Check new game>Awful mc>But guys, it's on purpose, it's a masterpieceMan I'm sick of this shit, of you cannot make something interesting then dont
>>720016554An entertainment market can have more than one target audience retard
>>720029421Good news for you anon, the I.V update added a bunch of extra scenes of Alex getting called out for being a dick so that the intent is abundantly clear to absolutely everyone.
>>720016554There are alot of piece of shit or abhorrent characters in video games. The problem with YIIK is that the game was Söy, Alex was an obnoxious annoying faggot that had nothing going for it, you can't make a stereotypical millennial cuck from San Francisco and call it a character, the game looked disgusting, the gameplay was garbage, the only thing YIIK had going for it is "member the 90s?" and even that was poorly done and gets old quickly.
>>720029520And that's exactly what I mean: people have no reason to even question this fake image because it fits this kind of game 100% at a first glance. There's no reason for 99% of people to delve deeper and see whether the game deconstructs this kind of person or whether it is played straight.
>>720029529>trying to reinvent himself in college and failing which I think most people can relate to.The most cliche line you could possibly come up with to gloss over what they did in college.
>>720029574That scene is in the original lol
>>720016554DAMN you've been shilling your faggot nonsense for like 5 years. NOBODY is interested in earthbound starring my perfect waifu a short goth gf
>make a shit art>people calls you out >this doesn't happen in a real art subjects he just unintentionally proved that games are indeed an art, what a clown
>>720029574I feel like your reading of my criticism is "the game didn't tell me how to feel often enough" which isn't the case. It's a badly written game, that's the bottom line. I'm perfectly aware of the dev's intent and I had no trouble parsing such upon my first playthrough. It's just done horribly. Also your picture was in the base game.
Honestly I think YIIK is pretty close to being postmodern as games can get while still being playable
>>720029628It is? Then everyone is a fucking retard and there's no excuse.
>>720029382People love to think about characters that are inherently grating or shitty but that's only under the guise of them doing something grandiose in scale of our perspective. The way I see it Alex was more or less made in the way you think of like a person you know at work or knew in high school. Hell I'd even say Alex is basically a lolcow in how you're supposed to dissect him where he is technically uninteresting but trying to see why he is the way he is and why he acts like this is part of the fun for me.
it's more likely his game was booty buttcheeks
>>720029626>Gloss overAlex’s college life is talked about in detail, he went to college for a liberal arts degree in 5.25 years and spent the whole time trying to reinvent himself, you don’t need more than that.
>>720016554>make shit painting>get criticized>complain about paintings not being art
>>720029617>people have no reason to question [thing] because it fits [preconceived notion of thing] conceived via discourse from [people who dislike thing and have spread misinformation about thing]
S'il n'existait pas Dieu il faudrait l'inventer
>>720029718could be worse>make shit painting>get criticized>try to conquer Europe
>>720016554The artistic value of vidya games is necessarily intertwined with the "toy" like nature of them. Everything that is beautiful in this world strongly and purely corresponds to it's own nature in some way. Hence why fakedeep, pseudointellectual and unnatural garbage like New Vegas being propped up is so cringeworthy and repulsive to women. It offers nothing of value or ambition to the art form itself which it exists in, not even some base gratitude, and never even tried to. It's a game that is fundamentally built of off other people's hard work and parasitizes itself off of that, yet fancies itself above it all all the same. It aspires in spite of itself to reach the levels of the great works of literature and cinema/television, while failing to reach the most middling levels of TV schlock like The Following or something, at it's absolute best. As long as vidya games like New Vegas are taken seriously by the vidya community, vidya will never be taken seriously as an artform, ever. And rightfully so. If an art community is too weak and ignorant to exorcise their most cancerous elements and hold some kind of real standard, they were never worth taking seriously in the first place
>>720029529>Yiik might only resonate with people who both have issues and are aware of themYeah.
>>720029838What was the prompt for this
>>720029761More like>people have no reason to question [thing] because it fits [preconceived notion of thing] conceived via [experience with thing being prevalent in this type of medium]Consider the following: You make a deconstruction of modern capeshit movies that, from the trailers to the first minutes of the movie, looks and feels 100% like a run-of-the-mill capeshit movie for <<modern audiences>>, even though it is actually a wonderful work of art.Would you blame people for not even trying to engage with your movie because they think it is slop? Why would they assume it isn't?Same with this game. There is no reason to assume that it is anything but your typical self-fellating millenial indie slop, and so there's no reason to even give it a chance.
>>720029838>new vegas is bad because... it's derivativeis the de-evolution of the elder scrolls supposed to be shining proof of bethesda's perfect design being sullied by usurpers
>>720016554We've had two decades of games that are supposed to be 'meaningful' and 'provocative' i.e. "We hate white men, now give us money."At this point, I'd rather have toys.
>>720030000Judging things by a trailer or the cover is never the way to go about things unless you explicitly were already avoiding shit similar to it and refuse to engage with anything similar or close to it.
>>720030000If you're going to market a deconstruction as not being a deconstruction then your intent would be to fool the people going to see the usual slop into seeing a deconstruction in which case they'll get mad about it and likely misunderstand it (see Spec-Ops The Line).YIIK literally has "A Post-Modern RPG" in its title and isn't shy about being a deconstruction nor is it hard to understand that Alex is a douchebag within the first few minutes. The only way to interpret it otherwise is to take shitty Youtube reviews by illiterate retards as gospel.
>>720030048You're in a thread making fun of hipsters, the last example of white man culture
>>720029838I forgot to mention that New Vegas's inherently rebellious, ungrateful and unnatural nature is why it's so beloved by tranners. They strongly identify with it on an existential level. It transcends mere fandom and elevates to a Jihadi-esque crusade for them, for just that reason
Unrelated, but wtf happened to that Falco guy, and Phil Fish. Remember them?Well kinda related since we're talking insufferable cunts.
>>720016554I first came in here to say that he's wrong but after doing a lot of thinking I think I agree with him. I was going to counter point that people think Shinji from Eva is a whiny little bitch and dislike the show because of that, missing the point. But then I realised anime, like video games, is an infantilized medium consumed by retards and children whose understanding of nuance and depth has not changed since they were 14 themselves. So yeah, I actually agree with this faggot, even though YIIK sucks.I'm sure there's examples of films/tv that are otherwise good but panned because of unlikeable protags, but can't think of anything right now. But all the other examples that came to my mind were 100% from video games or anime.
>>720016554>Muh Scott Pilgrim millennialism game was too deep! >You're all too immature to understand!
>>720030640To even try and compare the amount of people who like YIIK to EVA, then consider him correct because of his own little melty, it's just sad.
>>720030640Shinji from Eva is a whiny little bitch and the show is shit
>>720030640People don't like Shinji because he doesn't act like a teenage boy. He feels like a caricature. No one can relate to him because he doesn't feel like a real person.
>>720030724YIIK and Scott Pilgrim are very different and handle completely different aspects regarding their character's issues and problems.
>>720030989No it's a pretty good comparison, I've seen plenty of people complaining about not liking Scott Pilgrim because they thought Scott was a douchebag and didn't understand that was also the point.
>>720030764i think he's a fag and YIIK sucks as a game fundamentally but he's right about the fact that a lot of people will discredit a work because of a protagonist that's purposefully been written to undergo a redemption ark is common in video games and anime, but not in other mediums I can think of. >>720030870Shinji is extremely relatable to any semi-autistic retard who felt extremely out of place in life. I related to him a lot as a teenager myself. Not everyone is naturally charismatic or has high self-regard. For myself, I related to his self-loathing and wish to disappear. The constant feeling of being unloveable, being rejected and dejected and unable to find his own place or meaning. For a depressed teenager full of self-hatred that's a very common archetype to relate to.>>720030803Name 10 good shows
>>720030989His own description of the game in the OP just sounds like a Scott Pilgrim rip-off. The difference is that YIIK was made when millenials were middle-aged instead of when they were in their early-to-mid 20's, when it was still acceptable to be this fucking retarded and self-centered.
>>720030870>thinking Shinji is unrealistic at allYou're retarded as fuck.
>>720030870>DUDE this 14 year old kid should just like GET IN THE FUCKING ROBOT XD and shoot the aliens! I dont give a FUCK about his mommy and the fact that he feels 1:1 pain with whatever the Eva experiences. He is a little BITCH and totally unrealistic. When I was 14 I had 200 confirmed kills and was trained in gorilla warfare.
>>720031074>Shinji is extremely relatable to any semi-autistic retard who felt extremely out of place in life.I was a depressed, literal autist teenage when I first saw Eva, and I still felt that he seemed like a caricature, not a real person. He is what a depressed, pretentious faggot would envision himself as, rather than what he is. Wouldn't you know it, that is literally what the character is.
>>720030870Low tier bait, (You)
>>720030803>Le beloved anime is le bad actually XD
>>720031056>>720031089That's true however, a lot of people like scott despite making jokes about him being a pedophile and a shitty boyfriend and an overall dumbass. When Alex says something like "I don't think I've ever truly loved a woman." most would roll their eyes even though they've probably met or talked to people who have said those exact words before. When Alex does something flawed people are more likely to harp on it more than scott because scott is seen as a fun and cool dude despite being a giant fucking loser and leech if you had to actually interact with him as a person. Alex is explicitly never depicted as cool because he isn't unlike scott who by all means can easily be seen as cool because of the fighting and having a shitty band.
>>720031074>Name 10 good showsPushing DaisiesDead Like MeDorohedoroTales from the CryptColumboGunsmokeOver the Garden WallCourage the Cowardly DogMASHGundam: Witch from Mercury
>>720031263>This depressed teenager with abandonment issues and PTSD is too depressed and traumatized! It's unrealistic!How do you even come to this conclusion
>>720031521He's just baiting
>>7200314962/10You have the tastes of a Millennial who thinks they were born in the wrong generation.
>>720030045>I got filtered by natural change cause I'm too stupid and worthless to engage with it, therefore, it's de-evolution
>>720016554>Make an "impactful,thought provoking game">Bitch when it invokes an impact and strong emotions on the playersWhat was his endgame?
>>720031474It's Millennial Narcissism: The Game. No one wants that, even other millenials, because it isn't deep. It's the most surface level bullshit, shat out by a retard who thinks that he is more interesting than he is.
>>720031496>BITCH from MercuryTop jejOnly good part of the show
The problem with Eva is that it's terrible and only became popular because it was a new franchise unburdened by an entire franchise while having 14 year old girls in tight suits as the main characters.Anno's lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human dignity – all this is impossible to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of suffering from every mental illness known to man. It might not have seemed as incredibly banal in 1997 when the book was written as it does now but I do not care. >>720031468So what if it's beloved? Some of the first introductions to the medium are pieces like Mirai Nikki or Naruto. That doesn't mean that they are worth your time unless you're an uncultured pig, oblivious to cliches and malaise.
>>720031641So much text to say nothing
>>720031689Cry about it.
>>720016554Videogames could have been art but they never did.Also the concept of art as a whole is basically killed and doesn't really exist anymore in this current days and age. So in the end videogames will basically never be art.
Art if you actually make something of sufficient artistic merit.
>>720031627It explicitly shits on and calls out the behaviors Alex has and it's not like the shit Alex does is gone in the current year. If anything there's more people like Alex now than before compared to Scott Pilgrim. Also explain what's surface level about YIIK and what makes it narcissistic?
>>720031716>Eva is bad because... characters suffer
Yeah this is the same reason people dont like Red Dead Redemption.
>>720031796No, Eva is bad because it is bad, that the creator has a hate-boner for children is not what I really care about. It's just that he goes about it in the most banal way possible.
>>720031568>it's le wrong generation to believe popular shows like MASH, Gunsmoke, or Columbo are good
>>720031789>It explicitly shits on and calls out the behaviors Alex hasYeah, great, what a fucking revelation. Again: That's Scott Pilgrim. That is literally Scott Pilgrim. YIIK is the sort of thing that might seem cool if it were made by a teenager, or a college student. It's not cool when it is made by someone approaching 40. If Kurt Cobain wrote Heart Shaped Box when he was 40, and not 26, no one would remember Nirvana. You are expected to grow up at some point, this YIIK shit is just a manifestation of millennial arrested development.
>>720016554>My feelings got hurt by my own personal experience, so you know what? video games aren't art anymore
>>720016554Toys.Toys can also be art.Art is a rather meaningless word.
>>720016554dont care, wheres ending 3
>>720031963>You are expected to grow up at some pointAll the pop punk bands are still performing and putting out the same music as when they were young.
>>720031963YIIK was explicitly made with millennial arrested development in mind though anon. The devs said this in interviews before the game even came out. Alex is a millennial with arrested development that's why the world is talking about 90s shit so much and has pogs and why his house is the full house set.
>>720032083You just don't fucking get it. The fact that this piece of shit exists is more interesting on a meta level than anything that the game could have to say. You are not supposed to have this kind of self-indulgent bullshit going on at 40, and if you do, it's not going to be interesting to anyone else.
>>720032029People like you killed art
>>720016554>Art or Toys?Yes
>>720032223I disagree with that belief. Self indulgent media has created a lot of good things like FLCL or NMH or Pink Floyd's the wall and the fact you say it's not going to be interesting to anyone else despite the fact YIIK is still talked about for better or for worse despite it being out for 6 years is kind of funny don't you think?Better games have been talked about less than this one has.
>>720030640Just because people are retarded doesn't make something not art. Are we gonna say film isn't art because people watched come and see and reacted with retarded /tv/ basedjacks and memes?People yap, to yap all the fucking time, honestly who cares .
>>720032049You need to find Alex’s foreskin in the Essentia mind dungeon, if you pick up any limbs you’re locked out of it
>>720016554If I put the Mona Lisa in a yo-yo and make it play a symphony everytime I throw it, is still a yo-yo that is supposed to be a toy
>>720029838I guarantee you that telling women you like New Vegas is less repulsive to them than this drivel
>>720034075Until you put that yo-yo in a museum
>>720029198Something being bad on purpose doesn't make it good. The newest Matrix movie succeeded at what it wanted to do, shit on the previous movies and be a criticism of popular movies and the audience, but it was still fucking terrible and not worth sitting through. Contrast it with classic bad movies that fail spectacularly at their goal, like The Room, and you realize that a movies "goals" are entirely irrelevant to the end user experience.That's why video games are art, the only thing that matters is the what you rake away from it, although it's more often than not commercialized art and product forward.
Everything can be art, except stuff made by AI, which can NEVER, EVER be art, didn't ya know
>>720016554>make an annoying character>people get annoyed>PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND MY ARTnigga fuck off lmaoyou aren't fucking nabokov writing humbert humbert
>>720034434ai art is still art, its just 1. shit and 2. not created by the prompter despite what aijeets might argue. a computer made it.
>>720034415Nta but>unlikable protagonist=bad on purposeIs a super reductive take and seems like you’re approaching it from the perspective “if it didn’t appeal to me personally it failed at what it wanted to do”
>>720034902And this is precisely the issue with "gamers". Games can be a lot of things but gamers demand that they are restricted to a very narrow range of experiences. The medium is ready, but the audience isn't.
>>720017635You can be artistic when it's just you and the words you write or the picture you draw, but when your art requires millions of dollars and large teams, commercial things have to be considered.
games incorporate visuals, music, storytelling, and whatever else that would be considered art, but the moment a game prioritzes "being an art" over "being a game" is where it just shits and pisses itself
>>720031897>the creator has a hate-boner for childrenMistaking Anno for Tomino
>>720016554What Mr. YIIK doesn't seem to understand is that art is a form of communication.If you want a piece of art to convey a specific message or resonate with people in a particular way it's on YOU to craft it to do as much. You can't just speak garbled nonsense and then get mad when people can't decipher it.If the intent with Alex was for him to be annoying and unlikeable, then why get mad at people for finding him annoying and unlikeable?If the intent was to make him annoying and a shit person but still someone the audience could root for then the game has utterly failed and it's not on the audience for not engaging with it properly. There's been plenty of stories over the years both in video games and outside of them with protagonists who aren't good people, however they are, crucially, still likeable to the audience.
>>720040079>You can't just speak garbled nonsense and then get mad when people can't decipher itHis problem is that people turned interpreting the game into a moral position. It’s not that people are failing to understand, it’s that many people are taking a “principled position” that attempting to interpret the game is an act of charity that hasn’t been earned.
You are all a bunch of retardsThe point of the OP is that devs can't really express themselves through gaming because "gamers" just want toys. Sure "toys can be art" but as a medium devs can't express themselves through gaming because the audience are a bunch of manchildren that just want a toy. Example? Look at gacha. Is the gameplay or story or message good? Is it a medium of expression? No, but it sells because it gives gamers what they want, which is a coomtoy
720040672numerous people already made that point but better, you just plopped a worse version of their post out while calling them retarded because you're too lazy to actually engage in discussion but want replies. you're basically the tik tok goldfish that you hate
art for the creators, toys for the players
>>720040636Well part of communication is earning that trust.You can't just expect people to want to engage with what you have to say on the face of it, you need to sell the idea first.Again, in the quote he mentions that Alex is garbage and the story is about how he needs to transform, but if the game gives you no reason to want to see him transform why would you even be invested enough to care?
>>720016554Sounds like a snowflake was mad people didnt like his game
>>720042301Going into any piece of media without trusting the author is bad faith engagement, you shouldn’t have to “turn on” your ability to interpret a story
>>720016554Video games range from toys all the way to art pieces There is no clear delineation and is art or not art on a case by case basisTrying to pin down the whole of gaming as is or isn't is a fools errand
>>720016554>I made the perfect game but gamers are too stupid to understand that so I guess it's my fault for thinking gamers could understand artlmao why do so many indie devs have insanely inflated egos and either blame consumers or some other dev releasing a game too close to theirs when their game flops?
>>720042653Art is about the conveyance of feelings.If the art fails to transmit the feelings it's intending to that's on the author, not the audience.If you're supposed to want to see Alex improve then the game needed to make you care about Alex beyond that intrinsic desire to see him not be a piece of shit hipster.Again, you can't just write down whatever you want and expect people to get something out of it, you need to write down something people can get something out of.
>>720016692>>720018997I realize this is just a silly analogy but lets say something like The Godfather Part 2 was exactly the same, except there were two parts where you had to press a button to advance the plot, maybe choose a dialogue option or press X to shoot Fredo. if only those minute changes were implemented, does the rest of the movie cease to be art and become a toy?
>>720043498>Art is about the conveyance of feelings.If the art fails to transmit the feelings it's intending to that's on the author, not the audience.Do you think it’s impossible to interpret a book incorrectly? It’s mind boggling how wrong you are
>>720016554His point may have been more genuine if this entire tirade wasn't just him seething and crying over the fact that nobody liked his piece of shit game
>>720043701No, it's not.However if one person tells you your book is shit in the face of overwhelming praise that's probably just a dumbass.If everyone's telling you your book is shit you probably wrote a shit book.
>>720043836The tyranny of popularity...
>>720043836Ok but this quote isn’t about people saying the game is shit. It’s about people actively refusing to engage with the story and themes on principle, “I don’t like Alex so it’s a bad story”
>>720040672devs can really express themselves through games, he did. He just didn't get the reaction he wanted.Gacha isn't a game, it's a scam. Kind of like how buying real estate on the moon isn't buying real estate. You only think you're playing a game because that's apart of the scam.
>>720040079>then get mad when people can't decipher it.People can decipher it, they just don't give a shit about a millennial manbabby's realization that he is a garbage subhuman. You could take one look at the guy and figure that out.
>>720016554Video games are art because gameplay can convey feelings just like visuals, sound, and plot. YIIK's "art" failed because it doesn't even try to make the player feel anything about the protagonist beyond "wow, this guy is a piece of shit loser". Its point amounts to how you shouldn't be Alex, but Alex is so far from any remotely realistic mindset that it comes across like a middle schooler's attempt at a "deep" story.
>>720043952And I'm arguing that no one owes your story engagement on a deeper level if you don't hook them in with a reason to give it.The player is already there reading the words you put on the screen, if those words aren't enough to convince someone to become invested that's on YOU.No one is gonna want to devote time and energy to analyzing a story they don't find engaging on the face of it, that's the case for any piece of media or art.
>>720040672>Look at gacha. Is the gameplay or story or message good? Is it a medium of expression?Yes.>but it's gacha! you were supposed to agree that it's shit!I didn't agree that F2P meant "shit" automatically, nor battle passes, nor DLC. Why would this be any different?>but it's just coom!Limbus Company has been in Steam's top 10 often enough for you to know that's not true.
>>720044457There’s a difference between “I didn’t engage with it because it didn’t interest me” and the active unengagement that happens in the Yiik discussion, it’s common for people to say “you are wrong and it has no deeper meaning” in the face of evidence to the contrary because they just didn’t like it.
>>720044397That phrase wasn't really referring to YIIK specifically, it was more of a generalization.The point is that you can't expect people to do the heavy lifting for you in engaging with your work just because you put it out there, you need to make sure it's something people would want to read first.
>>720044869Most of the deeper meanings I've seen people ascribe to YIIK is stuff that was added in post as an attempt to make the story being shit on a surface level "acceptable". The story was retroactively made into Alex bullshitting everything for attention and being a bad writer when the creator of the game realized that nobody liked the story he had made. It wasn't the intent from the start, so I don't respect it.
>>720023032>gamers don't want anything resembling art. They just want to shoot at things.No shit , when I PLAY a video-GAME, I want to play a GAME
>>720044986I like that you did exactly what I’m talking about xD
>>720045092The way it feels to shoot things is an art. The fact that there's now a "right way" to design this gameplay is the issue.
>>720016554Is this guy retarded? He deliberately made a character people don't like and when people don't like it he gets upset.That main character design is disgusting.
>>720016554>Art or Toys?Who the fuck cares? Using "art" as a form of validation is the faggiest thing imaginable, "art" is just expressionism. No more, no less.
>>720045098The surface level story being shit is the premise you have to accept before you can even begin to engage with YIIK "seriously".The surface level story being shit on purpose was something the game only even began to imply after launch.Thus, there was nothing worth taking seriously at launch.
>>720016554He says this, but has there even been a game that does the same thing but with a female character?
>>720016554>>720043827Well for one, there are people that actually liked his game a lot, so like, fuck them then I guess?Two, he built his game off of previously existing games, nothing Yiik did was revolutionary even for its time.three, what he's describing literally happened with Cloud and FF7, then again in FF8. Maybe his character just fucking sucked?
>>720023032David Cage is an actual hack who presents the most surface-level commentary on social and philosophical topics. D:BH is probably the worst "what if human-looking robot slaves" story I have read. It's like he read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" and thought>wow, if humans made sapient robots and then treated them like disposable slaves that would be bad; why doesn't anybody except me think like this? >aw yeah, make them stand at the back of the bus, that'll get the point across to all these sheepAlso, people do enjoy story in games, but when they sign up to play a video game they want to PLAY a video game. If the gameplay is borderline non-existent (like Cage's QTE """"games"""") or just bad, then it's not what they wanted.It's pretty obvious you don't understand this when you say>which has become the most common of in-engine "walk and talk" segments to outright force players to get engaged with the narrative, and those get complained about tooBecause you are forcing the player to do something they don't want to do. If people want to experience the story then they will not skip things like cutscenes. If they don't give a fuck then let them. MH:Wilds was fucking horrible for this reason. I do not give a single fuck about story in a MH game, I'm here to smash big animals with a slab of wrought iron. Conversely, I'm fully capable of enjoying walking simulators like The Stanley Parable which is 95% just a guy talking at you. Because that's what I signed up for. I asked to be talked at in TSP, I did not do so in MHWI.As it turns out, knowing your audience is important and you can't just expect to hold people hostage with a poorly written story and expect them to like it.
>>720045632>shit on purposeNoYou keep saying this but you don’t even know what the story IS because you don’t want to understand it, your insistence on some meta narrative about things being retconned belies your intent.
>>720045237Some of the greatest literature in history has unlikeable main characters.
This is the game that I feel the most comfortable calling art. Most games I believe are toys however.
>>720045814The story IS Alex attaching himself to a missing person who isn't around to dispute his claims, and riding on the validation he gets from faking social proximity to someone at the center of a tragedy.The story you play in the game itself is the shit he's making up to try and keep attention on him instead of the actual missing person.But all of this is an attempt to salvage the plot based on feedback. The original story was infinitely worse Persona with a forgettable cast in an anachronistic and unappealing setting.
>>720045861But did they at least have qualities to make the audience have some kind of sympathy or understanding of their issues?Revenge against people that wronged them?Circumstances of their upbringing?Alex doesn't have anything like that. He's just an asshole until he isn't. And then the game tries to spin it around and go THIS IS YOU THE PLAYER.
>>720016554They are mass producing them and asking money for them so it's not straight up art. Could be done artistically, but the moment you are selling it as a product the art of it gets sucked out and it's just a product, toy or otherwise.
>>720046208>But all of this is an attempt to salvage the plot based on feedbackThe game literally forces you to stop the Sammy hunt and half assedly apply for jobs how the fuck could you think it is a retcon?
Games can probably be art, but I always mentally sidestep the question, because the kind of person who really cares deeply about games being accepted as art are precisely the kind of people who should have nothing to do with video games. The sort of person that wants to be a film director but can't actually cut it hollywood, so he makes a mediocre product that is neither a good game or a good movie.
>>720016554Vidya like kino are collaborations.They're quilts of many different artforms (costumes, music, makeup, special effects, actors) that come together to tell a story.Sometimes the writing is good and the story is told well but sometimes the writing sucks and the final product sucks.
>>720045861There's a difference between morally compromised and unlikeable.See: Patrick Bateman
Games are art, but art isn't an adjective.Bad art exists.Videogames are art because the creative process is the same as with any other art.
toys
>>720016554it's in the name. GAMES. i don't play chess or monopoly or risk expecting to have whatever fag that made it shout down my throat about how the pawn or the bishop beats his family after a few lines. games are a series of mechanics and systems with a goal and maybe, a theme and a story. the best games are the ones that have well thought out systems. a goal that defines the use of those systems through difficulty. and a theme and basic narrative to tie it all together. it's not art because the narrative and themes are better explored in other mediums where the artist can control the experience more. >TLDR anyone that hasn't 1cc'd final fight doesn't get a say in what makes a game good or bad. fuck off
>>720016554YIIK is one of the worst pieces of dogshit media ever made to the extent I am willing to engage in deep self-reflection just to change my opinion in a manner that isn't similar to this utter retard.Video games might actually be art. Simply because a YIIK dev said the opposite. We know they are the opposite of talented.
>>720023032If I wanted to absorb high-quality art I wouldn't be playing video games correct.
>>720048232>it's in the nameName are just signs, language doesn't hold the truth of what things ARE, it's pure convention. It's called a game because videogames were born in a capitalist era where things need to sell and, and the very first games had much in common with real life games so they were quickly categorized there.>it's not art because the narrative and themes are better explored in other mediums where the artist can control the experience more.Now you're almost completely right, story driven games with bad gameplay are art, they're just bad art. Games that can be good art are the ones that make full use of every available element to create a strong whole.
>>720025018This pretentious holier-than-thou "I'm superior because I like gay shit" attitude is why the overwhelming majority of people play video games nowadays.Video games are the only medium left where you can find refuge from FUCKING FAGGOT RETARDS like you.You creatures are fucking vermin and not superior in any way. Infact your below human because you completely lack will to action and want to be spoonfed a shitty gay story for faggots like you.YOU ARE A WORTHLESS FAGGOT THAT NOBODY LIKES AND YOU NEED TO KILL YOURSELF
>>720048959Let me add to this that "good" gameplay aligns with the themes of the game and not necessarily with what consoomers like to pass a Saturday afternoon with
>>720048959>I'm superior because I like my interactive medium with as little interactivity as possible.I will claim video games are not art until the day I die and it will be true for all of time.
>>720049267t. the raped
>>720049267We are superior to you though. >A bloo bloo bloo I just want escapismSlop will always exist for people like you but god damn, let more high-minded people explore the possibilities of the medium without it triggering you would you
>>720049270Yeah totally. Makes me think of Silent Hill 2's demake, for survival horror standards the gameplay isn't bad, it's actually decent but when you take into account the pace of the game and its theme, it's a complete mess.>>720049402But art can be shit.
>>720049402He said pretty much the opposite of that though Video games are art, deal w/ itAnti-intellectual philistine
>>720049267>Aaahhh Orson Welles why did you have to do that I just like Marvalslop aaahhh
Character growth done right? Look at beep in kenshi, guy is a psychological mess who fixes himself in the end if you level him up and there is not one line of dialogue directly discussing it. You infer he is a scared socially awkward outcast trying his best to find a place within society due to game lore knowledge. He is a literal insect used to being dependent on his hive mind and is barely coping to the point he adopts a retarded clown character to try and be likeable. He doesnt know how to make friends so he just runs up to you and clings. His actual stats and performance is pathetic at first, and as he gets stronger his personality shifts. His little one off dialogue lines change and he gains his confidence. He goes from being not ok to becoming a ok.Its a game, tell the story through playing. Not 'interactive movie with quick time events', thats not playing anything.
>>720016554ArtIf a freaking banana stuck on a wall is artYou can bet even FREAKING TETRIS is FREAKING ARTPeriod
>>720050149>His actual stats and performance is pathetic at first, and as he gets stronger his personality shifts. His little one off dialogue lines change and he gains his confidenceDamn that's cool as shit
This discussion started in hollywood with the first star wars film. Look it up. 'Star Wars Ruined Cinema' discussion goes back to the 70s. basically George Lucas' "Star Wars" was basically "Power Rangers"-tier content that's designed to sell toys to children. It's anti-art consumerism slop, by design. In a broader sense it's consumerism vs. aesthetics. Even worse it's anti-intellectualism & consumerism vs. aesthetics. /v/ itself is deeply apart of this decades old discussion. It all goes back to Star Wars ruining all modern entertainment.
>>720050461The irony of this is that Lucas was deeply into art cinema and its influence is all over Star Wars
>>720050461the first star wars movie is good though as it mirrors the heroes journey. you cant go wrong with that, it symbolically mirrors life itself. Its a store embedded in the collective unconscious and retelling it allows new subtle symbols to become associated with it, deepening its profound impact.
>>720016554AH THE GOOD OLD YIIK MENU
>>720016554They are entertainment. If your art is shit AND requires me to pay to experience it it is shit
Video games aren't art or simulations anymore. They used to be, briefly, but now they are not. They are toys. Theme parks.
>>720050849Hero’s journey is fine but it’s also one of the most basic of story structures and tons of industries are basically shackled to it by anti-intellectualism and the reality of having to appeal to a mass market.
>>720016554Is monopoly art? How about candyland?
>>720052264Monopoly was designed as social commentary
>>720051347you could always expound on the heroes journey, its one of those things that can be unfolded to more and more elaborate psychological insight.These kinds of basic things are refined over thousands of years and have a lot of depth to them. They develop universal applicability because they are honing in on fundamental patterns.The story teller that has awareness of the deep human psyche and can use symbolism to hit people in certain ways that they are not even aware of, and then have to sit there and try to work out whats going on in their own psyche, is a much higher form of art than someone just explicitly saying 'this is character and he feels this way because these things happened to him; "oh, i am feeling this way! let me show you by outwardly expressing emotions about it in cutscenes, im overwhelmed and tired of life! my glass has ice cubes that clink as i sigh!" the ceiling fan shadow pulses across his face as the camera drifts to photo frame containing a picture of whatever has him down.A story is only meaningful if it can resonate and to get something to resonate with people you need to tell them as little as possible about it, so that they have to figure it out using their own context and experiences to understand it. It will necessarily produce something different for each person on the layer of narrative explanation but it will produce the same sensation.Maybe im being defensive and triggered or something but when ever i see people lamenting that their moviegames are not popular and then insisting they are deep high art and people just dont get it i feel like everyone knows exactly what it is and its just not interesting because its an inept form of storytelling only used by people who think they are smarter than they actually are.The truth is that normies are actually not retarded. They lack introspection but their psyche is functioning possibly better than people who are forced to become self aware. The normies dont need it.
>>720052915correct. Thats specifically why I used it and candy land. My thought on video games is the exact same. If monopoly is art but candyland isn't the same applies to games. Some can be but many aren't
>>720053113You're conflating two senses of art here. A toddler's doodles are also art but they're not going in a museum.
>>720053282and a game that has clear artistic purposes is art just maybe not "high" art. The question in the OP is just "Video Games - Art or Toys?"
>>720016554Sports.
>>720053461>not posting current prize poolslol
>>720016554The artist makes the art.The audience decides whether it's good or bad, shallow as fuck or deep and thought provoking, most-common denominator drivel or esoteric masterpiece, and the artist has no say in it at all, for any reason, no matter how much they want to.For the artist to say anything other than "Yeah, I made it." means very few things other than they A) like or dislike it's reception, B) communicate a strive to do better or worse, or C) wants to have their ego stroked, completely nullifying quite literally everything they have done to warrant any status of respect or notoriety.
>>720016554He was really YIIKing out there, wasn't he?
>>720053024Wow look at all this cope just to say “yes, I only want one type of basic story structures ever. This is the only way to explore the human condition. If it doesn’t resonate with normies it is BAD mass appeal to normalfaggots is the true measure of a work’s value” fucking retard
>>720054446NTA, but you've wildly oversimplified the entirety of that anons post to the point of making yourself look like some deranged retard.Anon basically distilled it to its absolute bare-bones core argument. You just seemed to fill in the voids that you saw with hilarious projections.
>>720054617>he typed a lot of words and you didn’t type a lot of words that means you didn’t understand himHis post ultimately asserts that normalfaggots cannot be wrong in their assessments and if you believe they can “you just think you’re smarter than you are”, it is an insultingly midwit post
A stunning visual with amazing sound effects and a gripping story? Yep, that's art.A stunning visual with amazing sound effects, a gripping story and interactive viewer input? Get this piece of shit outta here.
>>720054789The assertion was "the general zeitgeist has a better reading on the pulse of a matter at hand than someone who tries too hard to make it seem like they do. Especially when it can be translated across time periods"But yeah, go ahead and keep telling yourself that.
>>720055240That is literally the same thing rephrased lol“The zeitgeist” can’t be wrong, there’s no better metric for measure the value of a work than mass appeal. And since the Hero’s journey has the most mass appeal, it’s the best! Any deviation from that is “subversion”, we can use the hero’s journey to explore any aspect of the human condition.
>>720055592You sure love painting the picture in black and white, don't you? Should have known I was dealing with an autist from the jump, but I guess that's my failing for thinking there could be any sort of reasonable argument to have had. Never you mind the 386,000 shades of grey in between them. They're obviously lost on you.
>>720016554>I made a really unlikable protagonist, believing everybody would remain invested in his journey>Just wait, it gets really good after 87 hours!!Brain-dead
>>720032495>Pink Floyd's the wall>good
>>720055964>w-wow, you sure love addressing the thesis statement in my 4 paragraphs of baseless fluffIf your thesis varies significantly from my interpretation give it to me without the fluff, but yielding to the zeitgeist on matters of quality just means the lowest common denominator is always the best.
>>720031474>17 year old>PedoFucking retard. About what I expect from a YIIK dick rider
>>720032495>FLCL or NMH or Pink FloydDo you know what all of those things have in common? They were done by established artists/groups for some random faggot
>>720030640>I'm sure there's examples of films/tv that are otherwise good but panned because of unlikeable protags, but can't think of anything right now.It's the opposite effect with many tv protags. People admiring and aspiring to be like characters like Tony Soprano, Walter White, Don Draper, etc. when they're all incredibly flawed and terrible human beings living awful lives because of their bad choices.
>>720057381Those are power fantasy unlikable characters and he talks about those in that interview (using House and Sherlock Holmes as examples)
>>720016554 toys
>>720016554He can always make that game. He just couldn't reliably make a profit out of it. Art isn't supposed to be profitable.
>>720057381The thing is those characters all have likeable traits mixed in with their flaws. The trick to making a good protagonist is that even if they're a bad person, they have some sort of redeeming qualities that the viewer is immediately made aware of. It's like going full retard, you can't go full douchebag. Even if it's the point, you just can't, sorry that's reality.
>>720057640Well the point is no matter the medium, most people are going to only look at the surface level of what it is they are consuming and leave it at that. It's not something limited to just anime/vidya.
>>720016554>Here is an art done by me"Your art is bad art">Reee, you no understand art you like toys
>>720057742>It's like going full retard, you can't go full douchebag. Even if it's the point, you just can't, sorry that's reality.But that’s simply not a rule of literary analysis. You can scream it till the cows come home but it’s just not true. Which is a big part of what makes the discussion around this game so contentious, you have a lot of people who dislike the game’s story instinctively (because Alex is a loser and it triggers the don’t associate with losers instinct) but they want to dislike it for more concrete reasons, but that’d require playing the game and playing as said loser. Vs the people who are immune to social pressure and also won’t back down since it’s the “correct” position purely from a literary analysis perspective.
I just think it's really gay that the quote was always taken out of context. He even says in his rant that his game isn't perfect and that he did fuck up while making it at certain parts. But everyone just focuses on the inflammatory bits that are easily quotable.
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>>720016554Art = Toys
>>720058462>But that’s simply not a rule of literary analysis. You can scream it till the cows come home but it’s just not true.Give some counter examples? Some popular story where the main character is through and through unlikable and has no journey to become likable?The only one that comes to mind is Holden Caulfield and the hubris to think you are writing the Catcher in the Rye of videogames is laughable in itself. It is the exception that proves the rule.
>>720058759Ready player one and Fight club
>>720058759Clerks is a good example of a movie I think. And regardless it wouldn’t really matter if it “has” been done or not, nobody serious would say it shouldn’t be done because it’s limiting the stories you can tell for no real reason.
They're art but the art is in the gameplay. This guy's problem is that he wanted to use a video game to tell a story and didn't have skill to pull it off.
>>720058759American Psycho is a pretty good example
