you have to admit this is reasonable design choice.
If nothing else, it's a design choice that avoids turning games into i wanna-like Masochistic platforming (or masocore) where you get insta-respawned at every mistake and checkpoints are your lifeline to justify articial difficulty. A walkback trek to the boss is long and tedious, but also depends on the game entirely. It is neither good or bad if it applies to some genres
>>720263058That's what lives and game overs would be for
>>720263058Nah, that's so unreasonable, if they wanted a real challenge they shouldn't allow you to respawn at all. What difference is a runback going to make, really? You're still back in the action in less than 30 seconds. Really punish players with these trial-and-error bosses and just reset all their progress every time they fail. Also just remove all health so you die in one hit by anything, there is no reason to get hit if you're good, so get good or get out.
I'm a fan of using easier bosses as rewards for enduring challenging levels, or having level knowledge tested in a boss fight through its weaknesses. having checkpoints right outside the fog door is boring as shit but i guess it has its place for the people that enjoy gimmicky ninjaflipping anime sword man fights.
>>720263058NopeThe real rason is came from board games and common games>lose>have to pay a wagerThat's it
>>7202630d8SHITSONG
>>720263058the game is perfectif youre good at gamse you can beat it, plenty of people are beating it every hour of every day since release because they arent crying on redditif youre bad at games you wont beat it and thats okits ok to not beat itlet me repeat that.ITS OK TO NOT BEAT THE GAMEnot eVERY game has to be beatable by EVERYONE. its OK for there to be games made that are GENUINELY difficult for people who ENJOY that difficultywhy is this so hard to undersatnd? is this all just terminally online contrarian ragebait rage addiction? just people who ned to feel angry and this game gives them an outlet to act angry online so they can feel something? i think thats all this shit is really
>>720263058If the boss doesn't punish the player playing aggressively while the player is sleep deprived, isn't that just an easy boss?
>>720263058>looks at NES Megaman gamesNah
>>720263681Anyone can beat it, anon. It's not a particularly hard game. It's just boring.
>>720263058This is such a retarded fucking angle lolthe real reason for boss runbacks should be, and in the case of earlier souls games, was that the bosses aren't actually really hard, but the levels were, so it's fun to have things at stake. Fuck up the boss? Do the level again
>>720263058I don't remember if people complained about having to fight the Hollow Knight every time before fighting Radiance in the first game.
>>720263058The best runbacks are ones where you have to redo arena fights like in the Coral Tower.
>>720263058>We can't make a truly challenging boss, so we will add time-waste as part of the encounter's difficulty.
>>720264059There's no such thing as a truly challenging 1v1 boss in an action game.
>>720264117>t. has never fought Mike Tyson
>>720263521>What difference is a runback going to make, really?It makes you care about your current attempt. If you get to retry immediately at the door then you wont care whether you live or die whioch makes it more boring boring. You will die to reset it at the slightest setback instead of buckling down to finish it. Run backs make your attempt more meaningful, makes the fight more meaningful and makes your victory more meaningful.
>>720263521You sound like a fan of i wanna be the guy's impossible mode
>you mashed attack 5000 times and eventually won based on RNGI feel this way all the time against certain bosses in other souls games, and it feels awful because it means the boss was bad. The only thing runbacks change is how long it takes to do it.
>>720263058Why not just give the boss an overshield or timed stat boosts or a wave of minions alongside it?
it's fun to have your abilties at sightreading tested instead of just being able to get a kill after a thousand attempts
>>720263058>think of it this way, if you respawn at a checkpoint, you essentially have infinite hp, just sometimes if the boss hits you a couple times in a row, it gets a full heal and you get teleported 20m backwards (and the door closes).>think of it this way, if you respawn at the start of the level, you essentially have infinite hp, just sometimes if the boss hits you a couple times in a row, it gets a full heal and you get teleported 100m backwards (and the door closes).
>>720263058This whole controversy is so stupid. The entire appeal of HK is the difficulty. What the fuck is happening to the gaming community? What the fuck is happening to people?
>essentially infinite lives when respawning>thinks irrelevant time wasting run backs is what makes a boss goodNO SHIT, WHEN I KEEP PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME IT'S LIKE I NEVER ACTUALLY LOSE. WOW THAT'S LIKE HAVING INFINITE LIVES.
>>720263872This is the correct answer.It shouldn't be a binary decision, the checkpoint placement should depend on the context of the boss.If the point is challenging the player to an endurance run and reaching the boss with enough resources, have a boss runback.If the point is you made the boss itself the main content and is as deep and involved as a whole ass level, don't have a runback.If you only ever do runback/no runback without caring about context, it means the designers are lazy dipshit slopmakers that don't care about good purposeful game design.
>>720263872This. It also indirectly farms you some more Souls if you choose to do so.
>>720265925bosses can be difficult without needing runbacks. the problem is the wasting time and tedium. bosses are fun, runbacks arent
>>720263058What? No it doesn't. Are they saying getting there is harder than the bossfight itself?
>>720263521This is what 1CCs are for.
>>720264286Dumb nigger.
>>720266103The runbacks give the game weight and a sense of realness. You just need something to complain about. You have a pathological need to complain to fill the void in your loveless life. I’m 2 weeks you will have completely forgotten about muh runbacks muh silksong difficulty muh too hard, you will get a short break from your cyclical internet rage addiction and then something else will pop up on your doomfeeds for you to latch onto to get your next fix
>>720263058One objectively great improvement Elden Ring had over Dark Souls is that you didn't have to run back to bosses and could back into the swing of fights asap. Whoever thinks running back is good is mentally handicapped in the most literal sense
>>720263058Absolutely retarded. This person has never fought an actually difficult boss in their fucking life.
>>720266359>a sense of realness
Why do nu-gamers hate having to be engaged and focused when playing vidya? Just stick to watching films and TV shows if you don't like runbacks and want a passive experience.
>>720266373>One objectively great improvement Elden Ring had over Dark Souls is that it became a bossrush nigger faggot rollslopjust needs auto-travel and it'll be the best game ever!
its not such a long and difficult game that the runbacks get grating. i feel like im playing a different game than these niggas.
>>720266519Just because you're autistic and you love to redo tedious actions doesn't make them good or worth anyone's time. Tedium is only interesting for retards scientifically speaking btw
You guys are only coping about run backs beause stinkdong has them. If it was any other game you faggots would be flinging so much shit, you'd put india to shame. Fuck you spineless niggers.
>>720266519They don’t really care about it, half of the people complaining it probably haven’t even bought the damn game, half didn’t even think about the runbacks until the internet hivemind showed up on their feed telling them to be angry about it and they obligedNone of it is real. No controversy is real anymore. People really don’t care anymore, it’s all performative. Everyone knows all of this is bullshit but we have to keep up the charade because our ensure civilization is built upon these charades and now pathological contrarianism is the default mode of humanityI’m so tired of it all
>>720263353It really depends on how fast a boss can wreck you for a few simple mistakesGotta strike a balanceA long track back after a decent several minute struggle against a boss feels fine, but the same after walking in and instantly dying in seconds because you havent "learned" all the patterns and tells just feels tedious and annoyingIt's like if you are at the arcade and you have to play against against an evo-tier opponent in street fighter and instead of a rematch you are forced to drive back to the arcade through heavy traffic every time you get comboed to death.
>>720266685>playing the game is tediousjust go watch a movie bro, it's not that serious
After a few tedious runbacks I just cheese the boss. My life is too precious to spend on shit like that
>>720266690No, it's the reason I dropped Dark souls. I just don't have it in me anymore to grind out progress. I have no need to get good, so I won't.Wasting time backtracking and dodging low level POCs is for the poor.
Games that are designed to make you die a lot should never have runbacks by default. >>720266719You're such a newnigger it's not even funny, people used to complain about runbacks in Dark Souls 1, but somehow now it's just a manufactured controversy if it's your favorite game. Convenient!
>>720263681i read a post in a gta thread that went something like "ill need to play this game because everybody will be talking about it"
>>720263058Imagine if there was a runback to Eigong in Nine Sols
>>720263058I think Sekiro did it best, you have 1 (later 2) extra lives, and if you spend them all you go back to the checkpoint. Just bring back the life system.
>>720263792It's worth remembering a lot of troons itt base their whole personality around their success in shitty video games. They really think they are better for spending additional hours on runbacks only because some people don't have patience for that
>>720266809>>720266887>>720267183holy seething
*solves you're issue*
>"My life and my time are valuable!!!">Said so, an anon who spends more time shitting and pissing their panties on 4chins than actually playing vidya.
>>720267295Doing anything is less of a timewaster than playing vidya. Furfaggot owned himself
>>720263058Sounds good to me. In a game like megaman you'd have lives so you can essentially retry the bosses instantly a few times, but you will get punished for just trying to facetank without trying to learn the fight with a game over. Also it helps that the stages aren't really that long. This is essentially a modern version of that
>>720267295only dadgamers and "reviewers" make this argument. 4chuds used to know better. if you see this argument on here it's further proof of the normalnigger saturation reaching peak
>>720267370>Shitposting, doomscrolling and crying about shit>Not a bigger time waster, or worse, a soul draining routineIs this the hill you're going to die n?
>>720267218You will never be a real woman.
>>720267449As sad as it sounds, all of that is still more fun than playing Silksong
>>720267406Read dadgamers as: Divorced niggas on child supportRead reviewers as: Broke fags evading the job application.
>>720263058>make trial-and-error bosses>"shit, this is too easy, what do we do">"put 10 minutes of walking between each trial">"genius"
>>720267526>"muh fun''And there's the magic buzzword. Bravo, it only took 3 replies for the concession to arrive.
>>720267623You're right, I don't play games to have fun, I play to boast about them with my other transvestite friends
>>720263058It's not like I don't understand their mindset, but it seems like the much more obvious solution here was making bosses that properly utilize the same platforming/adventure/puzzle mechanics you used on the way there.That is what most games seem to do as a matter of fact.>Spirit Temple Ocarina of Time>Puzzles mostly involve using your shield to manipulate the path of light>Boss Battle involves using your shield to manipulate the path of lasers>Phendrana Drifts [Metroid Prime]>Space Pirate Facility conditions you to use the Thermal Visor to see hidden enemies in the dark>Boss of the area appears to be invincible until you use a thermal visor to find his fleshy weakpoint>Library [Luna Nights]>Use Snail Time to sneak by fast moving corkscrew drill obstacles>Boss of the area fires a similarly laser and the player intuitively knows they can dodge it with snail time.
>>720265925>The entire appeal of HK is the difficulty.That is absolutely wrong. Thne entire appeal of HK is the artstyle and the music. It would be MORE popular if it was easy on top of that. The devs just have a moronic attachment to the worst aspects of Souls games.
>>720267790>It would be MORE popular if it was easy on top of thatanother dumb dadgamer cope
I don't mind the runbacks considering Hornet is so fast and agile and has multiple traversal abilities at her disposal, unlike souls games where the character has a top speed of of 5 mph.
>>720267852It's true though. No one thinks a game being hard is cool anymore. People thought that in 2009 when there was a wave of removing game over states from games entirely and going way too far in the other direction in general. Demon's Souls was a breath of fresh air then. It's 2025 now. There's no real demand for hard games now. Hollow Knight's whole appeal is the cute cartoon bugs and that is literallyLITERALLYonly reason anyone likes the game at all. Cute bugs that talk in baby-babble. Pretty lights. Music. No one gives a SHIT about gameplay in Hollow Knight, no one ever did or ever will. Gameplay is nothing but an obstacle.
>>720268034>Gameplay is nothing but an obstacle.Then what's the matter, bub. Obstacle too high for your old bones?
>>720263058Even Fromsoft realized long run backs are shit, Elden Ring always puts you close by.
>play Nightreign >1 hour walkback Just don't die ez
>>720263353Don't use artificial difficulty if you want to be taken seriously it's a nonsense term. Ever form of difficulty is artificial. Humans tune the balance up and down. Use words that correspond to actual real complaints if you have criticism. Like unfair or cheap.
>>720268185yes, because they gave up on trying to make bosses interesting or fun, so they just slapped a checkpoint near each one and called it a day
>>720263058Runbacks give you time to clear your head and think about the flow of the fight a little bit instead of trying to twitch your way through. Otherwise yes, effectively it's equivalent to the boss getting a full-heal if it lands a long enough combo on you and the whole encounter becomes a monotonous grind.The answer to excessive runbacks isn't to delete runbacks, it's to stop overtuning bosses to the point where the player has very little margin for error in their execution. Riding that line between being fun and rewarding versus just being tedious is what differentiates good game designers from mediocre ones.
>>720268034People like difficult games. You're just used to talking to gigacasuals on /v/ that even normalfags make fun of and tell to get good.
>>720266724>It really depends on how fast a boss can wreck you for a few simple mistakes>Gotta strike a balance>A long track back after a decent several minute struggle against a boss feels fineThis. People shit on lives systems but they served a purpose. I think bottle fairies and Estus try to fill that void but they're not quite there
>think of it this wayStopped reading there. Reddit pilpul is a waste of time and games should consider the native perspective of the player rather than demanding some gay mental gymnastics routine to tune into their thought process. Runbacks are a humiliation ritual for losing, not saying they're good or bad but that's what they are and you shouldn't try to sell it to shitters or people with lives because they aren't buying it.
>>720268185Silksong made me realize that elden ring never should have been massively open world, the design philosophies of an open world game vs an action rpg are too perpendicular, they take away from eachother. Games like nu God of War had a good system where you basically interact with one area and its objectives at a time, and everything was enclosed enough while still bearing resemblance to openness. So fucking embarrassing watching ranni's guard dragon disappear after its opening attack because it flew an arbitrary distance from its encounter point.
Based CHAD Souls 1 runbacks still the king of filtrering Elden Babies to this day
>>720266329Stop projecting, moron.
>>720264286>I need artificial bullshit or my zoomer brain gets distracted and gives up quicklyFuck off. Who the fuck is actually like this?
>>720266359>sense of realnessWhat the fuck "realness" are you even describing here. Playing this game is as real as it can get. Are you talking about immersion?
>>720263058Nah, that's bullshit. I've never played this game and don't intend to, but it reminds me of things like GTA5's trophies, where on trophy run attempts you have to spend 5 minutes driving to the part that's actually difficult. That's not difficulty. That's just a complete disrespect for the player's time. Restarting before the fight isn't like you're using save-states mid-fight. You're just fucking wasting the player's time by making them run all the way back.
>>720263058>runbacksIs this the new meme complaint people with no skill latch onto? They're like 15 fucking seconds long, boo hoo you have to run down a hallway and jump over a pit :(
>>720263058>It takes goyim this long to understand, after being explicitly fucking toldYou cattle deserve today's industry.
>>720270114So if it's trivial, why is it there at all?
>>720268607The solution to reducing runbacks is unironically good and INTUITIVE boss designs. Not just ones designed to fuck a player over with frame traps, dead angles, incoherent hitboxes and visual clutter. It has to be mechanically engaging and better if it is a soft-tutorial for the upcoming content of the game. It should not be so blatantly "my turn-your turn, OOPS gotcha not actually your turn" type of gameplay.
It's called 'icing' and it's used all the time in sports, particularly combat sports. It means taking someone out of 'the zone' where they're focused and at their best. It screws you all up like an alarm clock that goes off in the middle of a deep dream. That's another layer of artificial difficulty.
>>720270204Because it's platforming kino. Making you respawn right outside of a boss is gay zoomer shit
>>720263515You know full well people would complain about that even more. Redditors would lose their minds over getting a game over.
Lived long enough to see /v/ be completely casualized. To what site do you even go to if you don't want to see redditors' opinions on games?
>>720263058He's right, no run back allowed normies to brute-force attempt bosses in Elden Ring and eventually get lucky enough to actually kill it.
>>720268185Elden Ring fucking over-corrected it, there's way too many sites of graces within close proximity with one another along with fast traveling ALONG with summoning a mount that you can trivialize some fights with but was added on because the distances were multiplied.
>>720270317If I knew, I wouldn't tell you.
>>720268185spawning right next to the boss is what led to ER bosses being overtuned like consort radahn
The type of people that don't understand runbacks are the same ones that think elden ring is better than dark/demon souls. Zoomers want flashy bosses with none of the commitment.
Difficulty != EngagingAnybody who touts an encounter was too hard or too easy are arriving at the wrong conclusions. It should be whether or not it was engaging enough or was just so braindead/formulaic that it became also redundant or tedious to go through.
Might as well play with savestates each time you hit the enemy LMAO
>>720270272I'm tired of games being treated like sloppa to be consoomed as if by tube, passive and thoughtless. Getting a Game Over and being like "well, I'm done for now," then coming back and kicking its ass later is a great feeling.
>>720270650If someone is frustrated enough to resort to cheating after playing in good faith, that's not on them. It's on the devs.
>>720265925Tedium isn't difficulty.
>>720263681Every game in a series should be equally difficult.
>>720270719It's not tedious if you aren't shit at the game.
>>720263058Sounds like they just want to pad out the game's runtime.
>>720270261Doing the same thing over and over is "platforming kino"? Are you daft?
>>720270261>Making you respawn right outside of a boss is gay zoomer shitSpoken like a true zoomer. When the fuck did you start playing vidya you lying nigger? Even in games far older than you boss runbacks were not a thing because no obviously that's stupid as shit. They figured this out over 30 years ago you demented double nigger.
>>720270813If "you're not shit at the game" then you never even encounter the runbacks, so it's just added tedium for people who are bad? How does that make sense, design wise?
>>720270261Megaman would respawn you outside the boss room for as long as you had lives.
>>720270261>zoomer shitIt was never a fucking thing before Demons souls, some games forced you to rewatch a long cutscene but never actual runbacks like we have now, admittedly maybe occasionally in Metroidvanias but they were always fairly short runs compared to a lot of the shit we deal with today
>>720263973It was a complaint that went around at the time, one of the few I remember seeing outside of Deepnest complaints and path of pain stuff.
>>720271143Start with metroid or mario if this game troubles you.
>>720271290>I don't know the games I just mentionedWay to expose yourself retard. Metroid bossfights are mostly a joke and calling the bowser stages in Mario a bossfight is something only a true retard would even consider. Fucking hammerbros are more of a boss than Bowser in that game you dumb fuck.
>>720264117play Rabi-Ribi
>>720265925>The entire appeal of HK is the difficultylmaoooooooooookay, go ahead and post a link to the interview where the developers outright state thisotherwise "the point" is just your headcanon
>>720263058>shitty rng dependant boss design>solved with paddingGeez, just make it an open world ubislop already.
>>720269880>artificial How stupid are you actually? Post your hand.
>>720264286steel soul mode makes boss fights even MORE meaningful so by your logic steel soul mode should be the unchangeable default of the game.because it makes your victory more meaningful.
>>720271085huh, even games that put you behind the boss had the constant fear of losing all lives and starting over, maybe it's not the same but still applies
>>720271609>heh well what about this straw man argument?Pathetic
>>720271085>Spoken like a true zoomer. When the fuck did you start playing vidya you lying nigger? Even in games far older than you boss runbacks were not a thing because no obviously that's stupid as shit.I played nes/snes games and im having a hard time thinking of a game that respawned you right at the boss if you die.
>>720263058I have never once in my entire long and meaningless life discussing video games online heard anybody ever say that being able to retry the boss without first replaying the level cheapened the experience. What a load of bullshit.
>>720271732Megaman, but of course you have lives like the mayority of them
>>720271571No need, you already exposed yourself as a retard.
>>720271412Why do you think I recommended it retard? It's the perfect difficulty for you.
>another git gud cancer This is why I'll never touch this game, ever
>>720263681dank souls is a tediously disguised game of Simon and it always was. pure sperg bait.
>>720271984That's good, it's designed to filter casuals like you. If only the majority of shitters could be like you instead of pissing and moaning for the game to change to their needs.
>>720271615The issue is that they didn't want to commit to actual difficulty or penalties like losing currency permanently on death. The fact remains that this isn't a problem that these kind of awkward band-aid fixes will solve. You can only create tension with consequences, but those consequences need to make you feel tense and not bored. Me realising I need to walk back along the same boring-ass path if I die isn't tense, it's boring. I know I'm in no risk when traveling back, I know I can get my money back. There is no risk and no tension, just tedium.>>720271732Nigger what the fuck do you mean? Almost all of them that actually had real boss fights. Even fucking Ninja Gaiden starts you right back at the boss.
>>720266359>i have no arguments against your reasoning so i will insult youyou must be at least 18 to use 4chan
>>720271926>N-no w-well you s-see I w-was being i-intentionally wrong by g-going m-massive off-t-topic!Lmao, can't even own up to it huh? Utterly pathetic.
>>720263058It's literally just playtime padding. There is absolutely no reason for it other then lengthening how long your game takes to beat. It's an anti-consumer practice. Only made to artificially waste a player's time. The sad thing is, this thread is full of autists defending having to do the same thing over and over again as if that's enjoyable to anyone but them. You know who else likes to do things over and over again? Speedrunners. And they're all completely normal human beings, right?
>>720272172Most speedrunners are troons nowadays and there's a strong correlation between being a troon and having autism. Essentially we're wasting time on arguing with troons about wasting time. A troon will sit the whole day playing his shitty game so to him there's no such thing as tedium, autism aside.
>>720263058This is pretty retarded. By this logic it should have no saves whatso ever and the game should lock you out of playing it once you die the first time.
>>720272169I think you're replying to a post that only exists in your head. Not only do you need to start with the platforming basics, but you need to stay in school too because you're retarded AND esl.
>>720271660you shouldn't use words which you don't understand
>>720272302>Having to re-up every time you lose the gameIs this the world runback autists want to live in? You like your stakes, right? Why not wager your pocketbook?
>>720263058The runback gives you time to think about how much of a shitter you are for failing to beat this easy game.
>>720272332We're having a conversation about boss runbacks. Remind me why you thought to bring up games with no significance to that conversation? Go ahead anon, use your words.>W-well I t-thought it w-was witty!No, you thought of some old game names that you never played, didn't think about them in any meaningful way, and tried to make a cheap, retarded "gotcha" and made yourself look incredibly stupid. And now you're trying to backpedal and somehow justify your own stupidity, only managing to look even dumber.But by all means, keep digging that hole, digger.
It isn't reasonable in a non-level based game. Even with games that are level based, have check points with lives and continues the developers often either spawn you at the start of the boss or if there's upgrades they put you at some mid point in the level to get a couple or so power ups so you aren't woefully under prepared for the boss even if most of your power is gone.For a game that's many hours long it's just the developer being a dick.
>>720272501See if you spent this much time playing mario instead of bitchposting you might not be whining so much about runbacks.
>>720266075It's game design as old as time. Just look at Castlevania.The boss is part of the level, so if you die to the boss you get sent back in the level. But Dracula is meant to be a longer, multi-stage battle, so there is no level leading up to Drac. They figured this shit out in 1986.
>>720272680>I got BTFO but I'll still keep postingK.
>>720271085Wrong, diablo runbacks are kino.
>>720272846Bosses are bad game design. A relic from an era where people had to pay more money every time they died. It is predatory. No one says moves that hurt the player is good game design but it too is a relic of that era. Why is no one defending that aspect of those games? Because it's a relic of a bygone era that belongs in the past.
>>720263058No. Those are both separate issues that have nothing to do with the runbacks. If the boss can be beaten but hitting the attack button and holding forward that would still be the case with or without runbacks. Same for the game turning into a different genre if you have to fight the boss a lot, if you don't think the bosses fit the gameplay of the rest of the game and you think that's a problem then you should have designed the bosses differently.
>>720273012>Diablo>BossfightsNigger the bosses are weaker than some trash depending on modifiers. That's the whole point that has been made multiple times this thread already. Keep up.
>>720273429The amount of retards I see job to duriel says otherwise. And runbacks aren't just for bosses.
Nine Sols has little to no runbacks for bosses yet I didn't feel any less accomplished for finally beating them.
>>720264384what he described is literally Mario
>>720273739Which again, defeats the entire argument around having the kinds of boss runbacks we're currently having a thread about. The kind with no interesting engagement or threat and just a bare-bones walk back along an overly tedious path with no challenge or tension.
>>720273850They're punishment for being a casual. Runback of shame, don't die next time.
>>720274027Yes, I love paying for my hobbies to shame me. Do you autists even hear yourselves?
wasting time as a punishment for a failure is just not a fun design >but but its difficulty!no, its just a waste of time before you can play the difficult part again
>>720274085Well if you weren't shit you wouldn't be shamed. Sucks to suck for you.
>>720273060You're an idiot.
>>720274085Why are you even responding. "git good"fags don't even play the games in question. They're just shitposting.
>>720274271Nah, just got done running through bilewater which was piss easy despite hearing all the complaints. You faggots are disgustingly bad at video games.
>>720274192Sucks to be them not getting my money ever again, retard. Why would you willingly let someone else shit on you and your time? Some false sense of accomplishment? Why don't you go out and accomplish getting a family if you want to work towards something. Beating melania unequipped is a complete and utter waste of fucking time. Imagine what you could do if you channeled your energy into actually useful pursuits.
>>720271206I knew this would be your answer and it's fucking retarded. I was just waiting for it to tell you how wrong you are because I've heard this stupid example from other people. Mega Man spawns you between the boss shutters IF you have remaining lives. You get 3 total assuming you didn't lose any in the stage and didn't find a one up. You don't magically get infinite attempts by the boss door you die two or three times you fucking go back and repeat the whole stage. So no it's not at all an example of no runback unless you mean like Wily 6 in MM2 which you don't.
>>720274215Which of these looks more fun to play? A game with constant difficulty spikes gating progress or a game whose difficulty ramps up consistently over time? It's predatory game design and doesn't need to exist.
>>720274358See I'm not bad at the game like you so I don't feel like I'm getting shit on. It's been quite nice actually, hornet controls like butter.
>>720274359Thanks for confirming what was said. Any other pointless autistic sperg outs you want to get out?
YOOOOOOO THIS GAMEPLAY IS FIRE
>>720274686Wow that was disgusting. Do savestate niggers really?
>>720274686which profoundly influences the practicalsnes9xthe practical snes9xthe practical controversies snes9xthe practsnes9xthe practicalsnes9xthe practical contrsnes9xthe practical controversysnes9xthe practicalsnes9xthe practical controversies of the age by its latent presence and is likely soon to make snes9x
>>720274532>Dying to random bullshit you'd only know about on a runback feels quite good actuallyYou're pathetic. You wasted your life playing shit games instead of building skills with real world applications. You are so fucking pathetic that you don't even realize how pathetic you are.
>>720263058i just got done with the latest ninja gaiden and i have to agree with this one. a checkpoint right next to a boss makes the fight seem extremely trivial.
>>720274686wow, look at the overwhelming joy on her face as she dominates such a bel9ved classic.
>>720266359The funniest part about this post is the anon is actually just talking about himself without realizing
>>720263764nah what? you only have 3 attempts.
>>720265925>The entire appeal of HK is the difficultythis was never ever the appeal of HK. The only hard part was the boss rush at the end, you fucking retard. That's the entire reason it was so polarizing, because it was a steep difficulty spike.It has never advertised itself as being hard, nor has the difficulty been a selling point
>>720275093Sounds like a (You) issue to me. It's okay to be bad, no need to project your insecurities onto others.
>>720275458Except you're bad at life. The only pride you have is your ability to press buttons the same way repeatedly. You're a fucking automaton.
>>720265925Was it? Only Godseeker DLC seemed over the top and that was because of the full roster boss rush locking endings behind it. Other than that ONE thing, and I suppose the full Zote challenge, not seemed like an admittedly challenging but very normal game for difficulty.
>>720263058>the boss was too easy, so we decide to waste your time by making you walk this tedious hallway each timehmmmmmmmmmmmwhy not (just brainstorming here), actually make harder and more engaging boss battles that aren't beatable by just throwing yourself at them?The point of a boss is learning their moveset and figuring out how to avoid their attacks. Making so you have to wait 10 minutes for each attempt is just tedium and makes it so trial and error takes longer
is there a tool to make shards gravitate to you like rosaries?
>>720275606Sounds like more projection to me, you poor baby.
>>720275971How is that projection? You're literally bragging about how good you are at wasting your life on memorizing video game boss patterns. There is no one more pathetic than you are.
>>720276064comes pretty easy if you have good genetics, i'd hate to see how you drive since you probably build that up as something impossible and complex too
>>720276215Genetics has nothing to do with it. You could literally apply yourself to anything and be more useful than wasting your life on memorizing boss patterns through runbacks. You're so fucked you don't even realize I'm trying to help you.
>>720263058sounds like nortubel tier design
>>720263058My time is more valuable than the cost of the game.If the game wastes my time, then it's wasting my money, which is wasting my time squared.Silkshit confirmed for not even worth playing if it was free.
>>720276306ok you're so right zaddy teach me how to not be a boyfailure uuuuuuu it's tho hard cutting this zucchini and lifting milk jugs with these thin wrists ughhh
>>720276417See? No one right in the head would post something like this. Seek help.
>>720263058This is complete nonsense logic. If a boss is a challenge on their own then there will never be a situation in which "hold forward and attack" will be enough to win regardless of numbers of attempts.If you want to focus on stage-based progression where the focus is on platforming then the boss should just be a victory lap for the area, easy enough to be beaten without issue as long as you made the runback with enough resources.
>>720276461im seeking help bwo you just offered it bwo
>>720276490>This is someone who is proud of the current state of their life
>>720276064It's projection because your life is clearly shit and you're pushing it on others. Maybe you're just old, but platformers aren't hard.
>>720276589gloryhole payouts only get me so far
>>720276683My life isn't shit, though. That's why my time is more valuably spent doing things other than tedious runbacks and trial & error gameplay.
>>720276781Yet here you are pissing and moaning on /v/ over an easy indie game you supposedly cut ties with. Are you brown by chance? It would explain your slow brain.
>>720277169I am, what about it? That has nothing to do with it. Resorting to racism cause you know I'm right?
>>720277169Shitting on retards is more valuable than autistically memorizing timings for a game no one will care about in 5 years. I never even played the first hollow knight because it was a shitty ori ripoff. I just think git gud soulsfags are the most pathetic people on the planet.
>>720277169>>720277218Samefag nigger. KYS yourself.
>>720277343Huh?
>>720277393VPNigger. KYS yourself.
This thread got really confusing and not sure why people are copying me, I already know you're all in the wrong. Trying to cope at wasting time with pixels, apparently.
On instant runbacks I try cool stuff and get to play really aggressive. Long runbacks make me play super passive and boring.
>>720263515Remember, at one point games literally did let you just respawn in place with no consequences (except money)
>>720263058I've grown to dislike checkpoints right before a boss fight, that shit instantly takes away any stakes and challenge because it segments it in a way to appeal for an audience that doesn't actually care about learning the game and its mechanics.
Adventure game = long runback, easy bossAcion game = short/no runback, hard boss
>>720263058>beating the boss isn't just "you mashed the attack button 4483 times while holding forward, the boss eventually just fell over"Did these retard forget that the bosses still retain their mechanics and movesets that got the player killed in the first place???????? They don't just regress into punching bags just because the player died the 100th time.
>>720263058Which is why both final bosses have extremely long and hazardous corpseruns oh wait.
>>720265925>The entire appeal of HK is the difficultyThe entire appeal of HK is that it's trendy. Anything else is cope to try and insist you aren't following a trend that hundreds of thousands/millions of other people are also doing.
>>720263058Punishing someone for being bad is a good thing.
>>720285094HK wasn't trendy for most of its lifetime, it only became "trendy" during the silksong release hype
How about you fail to a boss once, you respawn outside and collect your silk. Second time you respawn, no silk and third time, back to the bench.
Why can't people comprehend having to play the level again before fighting the boss? It's not a "runback", it's a normal video game. You beat a level which ends in a boss fight. If you die to Bowser you don't respawn at the edge of the bridge, you go back to the start of the stage. Just because it's not broken up into explicit states doesn't change that.
>>720285436This is what cope sounds like.
>>720263058Complete nonsense. The actual boss fight doesn't change, the only difference is that the player has to waste anything from 1 to 5 minutes making their way back to it. If you've designed the fight well, it shouldn't matter where you respawn. It's the attacks, patterns and strategy that matters - not just your patience. If the boss is so simple that you actually can brute force it, then that's a design issue and not anything else. That's such a stupid justification that I feel like whoever wrote it doesn't actually understand boss design, let alone game design
>>720285436
>>720263515Lives and game over are far more drastic than runbacks. OP's reddit repost makes them sound like a reasonable compromise.
>>720286219>lives and game overnta but it's honestly much better than infinite checkpoint respawn imo
>>720263521Sounds like Noita
>>720263058A reasonable design choice would give the player a limited amount of lives and game over screen if those lives are spent.
Runback gives you time to THINK
The reason for boss runback is to create the psychological impression of the challenge being weighty and significant. Whether this is actually necessary or not is debatable.Imagine you have a platformer/metroidvania with instadeath spikes. If the game respawned you back at the jump you died at, what consequence would that decision have? Well, the level design itself would feel insubstantial and "unmeaty". It wouldn't really matter that you'd died or flubbed the jump. There would be no incentive to pay attention or take the level design seriously. This is because any failed jump in a platformer will usually be corrected on your very next attempt. It doesn't have such a steep learning curve. You make the punishment heavier because the challenge itself is comparatively easier which then creates the illusion of substance.Devs apply the same logic to a boss without really thinking but don't realise that it's unnecessary. This is because a boss already has substance inherent to being a significantly harder challenge. Unlike the failed jump, you're not going to correct it on your next attempt. Any well-designed boss will have you dying 10-20 times before you approach competency. Because of this, the boss *already feels* meaty and substantial, which has the paradoxical effect of making the runback feel the opposite—like padding and pointless fluff. A runback for a failed jump makes the jump feel more important, a runback for a boss that's kicking your ass makes the runback itself seem comparatively unchallenging and like tedium. This is without going into depth about the presentation elements that make a boss fight feel substantial—boss music, health bar, actual design etc. All in all your brain registers a boss as a substantial obstacle without any runback needed.
>>720263058Run backs dont add anything of value. The runback is always much simpler in difficulty and are just there for padding to make you irritated. I continue to hold that Dark Souls and its shills have ruined gaming.
Runbacks suck if the level section is a glorified corridor designed just to waste time instead of requiring thought and startegy to traverse as much as the boss itself
>>720280982I picture arcade machines as a hasidic shaking a child by the ankles so coins fall out their pockets
>>720285604Because it's not a level you dumb fuck, what the hell are you babbling about you incoherent weasel.
>>720266373one of the worst things dark souls 2 did was put bonfires before bosses and it was the worst feature from 2 that 3 kept
>>720263058by that logic the boss has infinite hp too since he keeps regaining itand fallowing through its impossible to beat since it has infinite hp
>>720270009>but it reminds me of things like GTA5's trophies, where on trophy run attempts you have to spend 5 minutes driving to the part that's actually difficultNot the same thing at all. What you described is just making something more tedious just to make the achievement more meaningful. Runbacks are intended as punishment for failing the game. You have to do the GTA driving shit no matter what for the trophy. You only have to do the runback if you failed. In other words, runbacks are a consequence of failing, not a necessary precondition.
>>720270973Just say you hate playing video games.
>>720265925>The entire appeal of HK is the difficulty.retarded fucking take from someone who didnt play itthe appeal is exploration and secrets, in HK you didnt meet really hard shit until the very end of the game, in silksong hard shit starts right awayalso a lot of the hardest shit in HK like Path of Pain was optional for the "true ending", meanwhile the hardest content in silksong is mandatory to progressand worst part? they made silksong path of pain fucking timed, what the fuck
>>720275093Meanwhile you're earning credits in your Shitposting 101 class. Gonna put that Arguing on the Internet degree to good use?
>>720263058>No runbackYou are in the boss fight mindset the entire time>RunbackYou enter a fresh boss fight mindset upon reaching the boss each timeHonestly reasonable
>>720290548>in silksong hard shit starts right awaydoes it? I'm 12 hours in and the only hard thing I came across so far was going in Hunter's March early (and I just decided to leave it for later)
>>720263058>Wasting your time adds challengeNo, it adds tedium. Only a retard would confuse the two.
>>720263058congrats, this explanation is even more shitty than most of the troll posts here.
>>720290998it's only tedium if you don't like the game in the first place or if you are so bad that you die more than a handful of times to a boss
>>720291510>so bad that you die more than a handful of times to a boss>bro somehow guess the random 1 shot ability each time on a new bossi mean anon when bosses arent predictable and have multiple phases of blasting the screen with stuff its not a reflection of skill at that point but seeing it for the first few times. Each time is a tedious run back.
>runbacksIt's funny how From's solution to figuring runbacks was just removing them altogether.
>>720263058This displeases the tiktok mutts addicted to instant gratification ( fuck them )
>>720265796Anon the point of that image is that it's meant to be posted while quoting something that makes the other person sound retarded, not something that makes you sound retarded
>>720291730Yeah because the level design of elden ring is mostly gross open world dogshit so there's no added value to your playthrough in learning the levels and finding your way back to the boss.DeS, DS and Bloodborne shit all over it.
>>720291730only because they started overtuning their bosses.If the hardest boss in ER was on the same tier as O&S then they could have gotten away with not implementing the statues of Marika.When a boss is easy the part of the level preceding it becomes part of the challenge, and sometimes it's harder than the boss itself, and that's a good thing
>>720263058sorry but the given reason is dogshit, it's just tedious and a time waste
>boss runbacks are just tedious and a time waste>needing currency to buy items is just tedious and a time waste>not being able to teleport anywhere on the map at any time is just tedious and a time waste>going back to a checkpoint after dying is just tedious and a time waste>enemies outside of bossfights are just tedious and a time wastedo you guys even like gaming?
>>720268309Artificial difficulty is masking bad game design choices that are hard for you to fix with other intentional bad game design choices.Like: I have spend 7 years on this game but have not improved the combat at all (especially compared to the competition). Releasing it like this will make people talk about that so I'm gonna make the game harder to the point it's tedious, now people will talk about the game being harder instead of the gameplay not changing and being shit.
>>720263058Retarded take.
>>720288117
>>720267295No.Pants.
>>720291932To be perfectly honest, most runbacks in DS1 are dogshit, and you don't even do much unlocking to do them.Here's runbacks that aren't just "run for few minutes as enemies shake fists at you":>Capra Demon>Bell Gargoyles>Priscilla>Four Kings>Nito>O&S (if you don't jump off spiral staircase)For the rest you just run in straight line and that's about it, there's nothing particularly fun about them past second, maybe third time you have to do it.
>>720263515Both should come back, as part of increasing optional difficulty.
>>720263058>run back while ignoring mobs>it becomes exactly the monotony he's describing except now you're running for 2 minutes before engaging the bossbig brain move here
>>720293758it makes the stakes of the fight higher because you get punished for failing
