mobas scratch a similar itch and are a million times easier to pick up and play
>>720508547This and it marked a still-current shift of using controllers over mouse and keyboard. And that was bad for RTS since it's a genre that's super aids on controller
>>720507678Starcraft 2 set the bar too high for everyone else in terms of production value, and then they pulled the plug on Starcraft 2 development.
>>720507678blizzard was buttblasted they missed out on dota money, so they claimed full ownership of all custom games in sc2. This lead to lower quality custom games, which in turn meant that there were less people who stuck around and played customs.
>>720507678Honestly there hasn't been a single good RTS game in forever.I want so bad a game like WC3 or Starcraft, with a story, base building and controlling units to go kill a boss/other base.But nothing. Instead we get 99999 copy paste survival crafting games every month.
>>720509173Graphically, sure. The game looks incredible even today, despite the models looking like total shit up close. When you see a unit, you instantly know what you're looking at and from the player's camera angle and distance they look great. Unfortunately that is where SC2's magnificence ends. The story is fucking awful, like really truly terrible. Commits every possible sin in storytelling. And the balance devs completely fucked the game into obscurity. Years and years of total ineptitude and utter malfeasance. It's no wonder the game is completely dead now. Not only that, the company made the mistake of assuming the game would be massively successful and tried to cash in hard by trying to control everything and anything to do with the game. They didn't want any tournament happening that didn't put money in their pocket. They didn't want anyone inventing the next League of Legends in their engine again. Furthermore they assumed the game should be tremendously difficult to be able to play because that's what the hardcore audience wanted. They wanted to jerk off and suck each others cocks over how fast their favorite gook could play the game. They jam packed the game with macro mechanics, abilities, etc which utterly alienated any form of casual playerbase. You ended up with 100k people watching the tournaments despite only 1% of them playing the actual game more than once a month. People had lives, they didn't have 4 hours a day to fucking practice a stupid game. 100k viewers became 90k, became 50k, became all tournaments cancelled. Because nobody is going to keep watching a game they haven't played in 10 years.
>>720507678Focus was made onto online only, unfortunately and the average person does not have the autism to click 90 times per second to 'maximize acttions per minute'Like 'professional' players literally just click on empty spaces to get clicks in. It's retarded.
I grew up playing campaigns, turtling in multiplayer, and playing custom games especially in Starcraft and the Age of Empires/Mythology series. Then I played Starcraft 2 for like two months competitively, had artificial short-term "fun" with that, and then I never wanted to play an RTS again.
>>720507678Never didStarcraft 2 always kinda sucked ass tho. It's not fun. Any other RTS is more engaging, more indepth and better designed than Blizzard games. This isn't a butthurt contrarian opinion, it's a fact that Blizz games are good on the campaign modes, but shit at being an actual game. God SC2 is so ass backwards designed it's impressive. Just to appease the Korean market, they forgot to make a compelling game for anyone else that didn't exploited corners in SC1.
>>720509173>set the bar too high for everyone else in terms of production valueThe game looks -kinda- pretty but that's all. It was a bunch of hype and zero fun factor.No i will NOT inject larva manually ever again. I will NOT keep spreading tumors manually ever again. I will not block the entrance with the same buildings and the same openers for the same cheese to have the same match everytime ever again. I will not A move a deathball around an inert map of nothingness against another deathball ever again. This shit aint fun. It's mechanic and constrictive. It dulls the imagination and the mind. I am not an asian cockroach.
Theyre fun to fuck around in occasionally to watch some dudes fight and build bases but you need the full blown autism and real dedication to doing the same shit over and over to not got your ass completely smacked in multiplayer and Im just not enough of a masochist for that
>>720507678>Oh boy lets boot up the newest RTS!>It's almost a pound for pound cline of 90's Broodwar or Company of Heroes>Game balance is so sterilized there's no fun because Comp-fags ruined it during development and the devs hoped it'd be an Esport>Campaign is literally just the same process every single time, no special quests, bonus missions or whatever>Unit count and weapon ranges as pitiful as broodwar, people with guns basically humping each otherI WONDER WHY RTS DIED.
>>720512414>Game balance is so sterilized there's no fun because Comp-fags ruined it during development and the devs hoped it'd be an EsportI constantly read this "argument" but it means nothing and when challenged it comes from a baddie that didn't knew Villagers aren't soldiers.
>>720512541>I constantly read this "argument" but it means nothing and when challenged it comes from a baddie that didn't knew Villagers aren't soldiers.Play some RTS games for a change and come back to us with your findings. I'd recommend playing Homeworld, Red Alert 2, and the new Terminator RTS.
>>720511624man even at 2.0 this chart is fucking awful. >>720510274the story might have been shit but it still had a story. it had a campaign with a bunch of missions and unique mechanics, it had shit like archon mode and coop for casuals. modern rts devs can't even manage a quarter of that.
I just finished playing some AoE2 campaignsis the Greek DLC and the AoE1 ''remake'' DLC worth getting?
>>720512834>it had a campaign with a bunch of missions and unique mechanicsIt had a campaign that has AI that outright cheats and does not obey the rules that are told to the player.If you play the campaign with the expectation the AI has the same limitations as you, you'll lose.And that's terrible fucking game design.>Hey Timmy, I'm going to shackle you with all these restraints!Damn that sucks! At least the guy who's about to punch my head in is shackled too right?>Lol no, you better play every level with the same aggressive cheese style or you'll lose!
>>720512658that's not an argument. explain how a balanced game is worse than one where one faction or strategy is super broken and everything else isn't viable.
>>720507678RTS has niche appeal. It blew up in the 90's because they were some of the highest quality PC games being made then, and people had less options.Nowadays mainstream audiences have moved to other things, and only enthusiasts remain who will be hard to please because they want games on par with the classics.
>>720512979>that's not an argument. explain how a balanced game is worse than one where one faction or strategy is super broken and everything else isn't viable.Never said anything about a specific thing being super broken, you're making up words that were never posted like some kind of leftist tranny.RTS are fun when 'most' things are busted in their own way. Dawn of War has almost every faction having some crazy trump card of set of units that makes the experience fun.
>>720512834>Chart is super objective>man even at 2.0 this chart is fucking awful.Jesus what a shit opinion, let's read the rest of this cunt>the story might have been shit but it still had a story. it had a campaign with a bunch of missions and unique mechanics, it had shit like archon mode and cJesus anon get your shit togetherPlay Bloons, dude
>>720511624>RTS IS NOT DEAD>Most of the games are from the 90's and early 2000'sLol, lmaoA genre is dead if after 20 years there's no innovation or games.
>>720513082>>720512658>Never said anything about a specific thing being super broken, you're making up words that were never posted like some kind of leftist tranny.RTS are fun when 'most' things are busted in their own way. Dawn of War has almost every faction having some crazy trump card of set of units that makes the experience fun.Anon what the fuck are you talking about. You're describing TABS or some shit. Yet you cited DoW which is pretty much balanced and has high TTK at any point of a match with decent balance.What
>>720513276>Anon what the fuck are you talking about. You're describing TABS or some shit. Yet you cited DoW which is pretty much balanced and has high TTK at any point of a match with decent balance.Anon you should play Dawn of War and it's expansion packs. They're pretty fun.You shouldn't be posting about RTS on the internet racist forum without having actually played RTS.
>>720513251Play BAR
>>720513357Has it got a cool campaign with some cool characters?
>>720513341Describe and elaborate how DoW has wacky OP units or comps in their rosterWhat is your point
>>720513479You should play some RTS games buddy, they're fun and it's a great if disrespected genre.I'd recommend Homeworld first, that game has some crazy units too.
>>720513428YesThis is my main character. He's a fatboi that waddles down the road of the enemy frontline and pew pews. He will just not die. And can be spammed with the correct build.Look at him all chubby and fat
>>720507678Too much fucking focus on competitive multiplayer play, not enough focus on letting me make little action figures and smash them together while making explosion sounds with my lips
>>720513568What is a "crazy" unit to youWhat does that mean to you?
>>720513636Checked it out, cool but I want a proper game not a mod. Also ideally on steam.
>>720513082>RTS are fun when 'most' things are busted in their own way.you mean like starcraft brood war? can you name a single example of a game mechanic that was removed for balance reasons that made the game worse to play because of it?>>720513113the chart is shit because it's just someone's opinions shit out onto a .jpg. it doesn't even attempt to organize things in any kind of logical way based on common mechanics or developers or anything. for example star wars empire at war was developed by ex westwood people while galactic battlegrounds was made by ensemble, but on the chart both games are connected to homeworld 2 and are like 6 nodes away from command and conquer or age of empires.
>>720510491>Like 'professional' players literally just click on empty spaces to get clicks in. Really? That's hilarious.
>>720513428Yeah>campaign: kill all the arm*diggers>characters: faceless grunt, faceless fiend, faceless demonIt tells the riveting story of how some fucking arm*oid FILTH thought they could take MY mineral patches so I defended myself with fifteen nukes all armed at their commander's butthole
>>720513716>you mean like starcraft brood war? can you name a single example of a game mechanic that was removed for balance reasons that made the game worse to play because of it?Broodwar is fine, it's just really fucking old and clunky. You can't have a genre survive on a 90's sprite based game lmao.SC2 shat the bed and sterilized everything though.Oh and made the story fucking retarded.>I'm the man who's going to kill you one day!>Next time we see him he's deeply in love with space-bug hitler
>>720513761You didn't know?Look at StarcraftThey'll jump aound to points on the map which is fine but like, if you have your worker unit already say, getting gold, they'll pick that unit and spam click the mineIt doesn't make a difference gameplay wise but it gets more 'actions' per minute and makes them appear as 'good'
>>720513805I'm still waiting for an example
>>720513875Play an RTS game, they're fun.
>>720507678too much accountabilitywhy play 1v1 and risk your ego being damaged when you can play 5v5 slop suboptimally and just pretend you are good and blame teammates/matchmakingteam based games also let companies rig matchmaking to increase engagement so it suits their model
>>720507678Blizzard killed and buried the genre for good.
>>720513858It's to keep them warmed up during slow moments, so they'll be ready when they need to be fast.
>>720510491>>720513761Are you guys so fat you can't conceive of the concept of warming up? They aren't clicking empty space 'to get clicks', they are warming up before the game gets serious by doing meaningless actions really quickly so they can get into their groove. Kind of like how a boxer might, you know, air box some before a fight.
>>720513716>the chart is shit because it's just someone's opinions shit out onto a .jpg. it doesn't even attempt to organize things in any kind of logical way based on common mechanics or developers or anything. for example star wars empire at war was developed by ex westwood people while galactic battlegrounds was made by ensemble, but on the chart both games are connected to homeworld 2 and are like 6 nodes away from command and conquer or age of empires.It's a chart for recommendations based on certain principles and all of those recommendations are good. The way they're related at this specific chart is self explanatory. And even the shadow realm games aren't bad.It's just a recommendation chart. Choose any game in that chart and you're in for a treat. If you want to arrange topics around other subject you have to be specific what subject and your chart would look vastly different (game lengths, gameplay, 2D vs 3D, dev ADN, economics, RTS, RTT)What you're asking is for a 3D kind of chart like a topic sphere.
>>720507678>Make singleplayer genre that people seem to enjoy>Add multiplayer because why not? Some people like that too. Win-win and we make more money>One company makes even more multiplayer focus, raking in literal billions from normalfags>IDEA>Make all future games focus on multiplayer at the expense of singleplayer>Lose money???>Turns out 90% of your audience were playing singleplayer and the company raking in billions had like fifty billion other projects to fund everything
>>720513907are you this?>>720513568>>720513568I want to know what you think is a wacky fun balance and what does that mean?
>>720514206>are you this?NTA, but homeworld is one of the best RTS ever made, the expansion/Cataclysm is better though.
>>720514278Yes they areBut what is a wacky OP balanced unit in Homeworld?
>>720514035You are, literally, retarded, anonThey fucking do this when they have 3+ expansionsThe overall goal is to just spam clicks
>>720514334Multibeam frigate, defence field frigate, missile corvette, heavy corvette (hidden burst fire barely anyone knows about), swarmer/advanced swarmer, salvage corvette, heavy cruiser
>>720514369>nooo how dare you try to stay warmed up during lulls in the gameLooking forward to your minimum apm ladder climbing challenge anonOh wait you are just fat and salty
Trannies don't answer straight, anonsWhen their views are challenged they deflect, their arguments have no ground to stand onPush too much and they either go suicidal or homicidal. But will never answer straight up when challenged.
>>720513761gotta keep my apm up bro
>>720514468>b-bro apmnope
>>720514438What makes them unbalanced and wacky?They're fine to me
>>720514542You should play Homeworld, it's a fun game.Come back once you have. Refusal to play Homeworld is a concession which I'll accept.
it's crazy how twisted people get themselves over the fact that they're bad at rts games. if you listen to them you would believe that rts was ruined because companies stopped making singe player games because they wanted to focus on eatsports but the games that everyone did eatsports with are the same games that are praised for having the best campaigns. then they will tell you that the game saving rts right now is one that doesn't even have a campaign.
>>720507678The vast majority of RTS players back in the day treated them more like train sets or toy soldiers instead of games with push and pull from a thinking opponent.
>>720514592Are you this guy?>>720513082>>720512658
>>720514601>the games that everyone did eatsports with are the same games that are praised for having the best campaignsThat's the problem, RTS devs saw the success of these games and thought they were popular for the Esports, when they were actually popular for the campaign.It's like looking at a forest on fire and assessing that you should set people on fire instead of planting trees.
>>720514662Concession accepted, I will no longer discuss with someone who hasn't played RTS games. Enjoy being a loser lol.
>>720514601>it's crazy how twisted people get themselves over the fact that they're bad at rts games. if you listen to them you would believe that rts was ruined because companies stopped making singe player games because they wanted to focus on eatsports but the games that everyone did eatsports with are the same games that are praised for having the best campaigns. then they will tell you that the game saving rts right now is one that doesn't even have a campaign.kek yesAt least on /v/ it do be like thatAnd they cite things like tryhard or balance which neither can explain what it means to themBut I mean, City Builders do exist. It's like playing Final Fight and then a fighting game and bitching there's no campaign in FGs and they get beat up by another player all the time.
>>720514123>The way they're related at this specific chart is self explanatory.no it's fucking retarded. it doesn't even acknowledge that there are basically 3 styles of rts game based on mechanics and developer lineage. even the first fucking step is stupid. there's no reason to play dune 2 or warcraft 1 as your first games unless you're 40 years old and were there when they came out.
>>720514035>Are you guys so fat you can't conceive of the concept of warming up?>are you so fat that you can't comprehend ultra athletic video game playing?>gotta keep the fingers limber by clicking>do you even click?Wild times we live in.
>>720514776So you areWhat makes in your opinion an unbalanced game fun and a balanced game tryhard, but you can't form the idea of what you meant in the first place?Are you familiar with Homeworld, yes? What does that particular game have that you like so much over others?
>>720514793>Heh, the issue isn't shitty RTS games it's SHITTY PLAYERS!>OH! OWNED! Bet you're in the bronze league huh?>You don't even play multiplayer? Whaa?>Well I'm going to bully you anyways! GIT GUD>What do you mean you're not buying the next RTS game?>What do you mean you're just going to play Red Alert?>YOU CAN'T FUCKING DO THIS TO US! WE BULLIED YOU SO YOU HAVE TO BUY! WHAT THE FUCK!? TEXTBOOK ANTISEMITISM!
>>720514795>there's no reason to play dune 2 or warcraft 1 as your first games unless you're 40 years old and were there when they came out.why not?
>>720514795>there's no reason to play dune 2 or warcraft 1 as your first games unless you're 40 years old and were there when they came out.Well, don't do it. Get to the other recommendations, anon.
RTS games are really confusing because the game gives you absolutely shitloads of options. It's not exactly intuitive what you should be doing. And most games don't exactly do a very good job of teaching you.
>>720507678RTS is a hard genre. It's difficult to play and if you're playing 1v1 there's nobody else to blame when you lose. Most people can't take that in an "online ladder" environment. There's team vs. team of course and that's fun to play but in the vast majority of RTS games it feels kinda fucked and unbalanced. In 1v1 the game is often decently balanced and there's an answer to whatever your opponent does, but in team games (especially with randoms) it's easily possible to just delete 1 player if the entire team gangs up on him and his team doesn't respond in time or such. It feels a lot more wonky than 1v1, at least as long as you're not playing with a whole premade team you're talking to.>>720508547They don't in any way, I have no idea why people keep saying this shit. Do you think they're the same thing because they're both top-down, or what?
>>720515232>RTS is a hard genre. It's difficult to play and if you're playing 1v1 there's nobody else to blame when you lose. It's a singleplayer genre with difficulty as hard or easy as the options and developer intended.What are you talking about.
>>720515232Imagine thinking RTS games are only 1v1 multiplayer games
>>720507678Instill do, sc2.
>>720515306>It's a singleplayer genreNot really, most RTS games work much better as multiplayer games, very few of them are actually designed around single player
>>720507678They didn't.Premise is wrong.>no they did actuallyprove it
>>720507678We didn't, I play Starcraft every weekend. It's a very fun game and I have a lot of nostalgia for it. My life for Aiur!
>>720514946>why not?they're bad games
>>720515420>very few of them are actually designed around single playerYes, the very few which are still talked about today, and are still enjoyed today.>most RTS games work much better as multiplayer gamesOh of course, that's why RTS with all it's multiplayer focus nowadays is hitting top of the charts monthly right?
>>720515232>I have no idea why people keep saying this shitThey're action strategy games with the same control scheme (Dota is a WC3 mod afterall) except they don't completely shit the bed on the strategy element like RTS games do
>>720514693which devs? tell me the companies and the games. keep in mind that starcraft came out in 1998, the first broadcast tournament was in 1999, and until starcraft 2 came out 11 years later in 2010 the only people who had even heard of eatsports were a handful of nerds on teamliquid. >>720514946because command and conquer and warcraft 2 are basically the same games but more refined. it's like recommending wolfenstein 3d as your first boomer shooter instead of doom. I doubt the person who made the chart even played half of the games on it.>>720515012what good is a recommendation chart if the order it recommends games doesn't make sense?
>>720510274Wtf are you talking about, there is competitive scene to this day and the game has 15 years. Balance is the best you'll find, and even if the story is shit( specially lotv and hots) the missions are brilliant gameplay wise. Even the nova ops. It's just rts perfected, I play daily and never had any issue finding people, even on 4v4
>>720515616>which devs? tell me the companies and the games.Just about 99% of RTS made in the last fifteen years, but especially lately.Iron Harvest, Stormgate, etc.
>>720515107>And most games don't exactly do a very good job of teaching you.Eh this is a valid thingAs an enthusiast of them, I guess they can be daunting for new people since they're mostly sandboxes to go out and do whatever you want or need to destroy the other playersBut that's the magic on them. Just get into one you like and fuck around. It's the most heart pounding experiences you can get once you get your first wins against people of your level. Play teams, play solo, play mods, whatever.
For those complaining about competitive scene, there are tons of single player rts, like for example Dyson sphere that are top quality
>>720515502The original RTS formula that C&C, Warcraft, Starcraft, AoE, Dawn of War all follow works alright for multiplayer and pretty terrible for single player, because the AI simply cannot play the game so single player maps are basically just puzzles and not a real game where you outsmart and outplay your opponent>that's why RTS with all it's multiplayer focus nowadaysThere is no RTS "nowadays" much less ones focused on multiplayer because who's gonna play it?
>>720515502all of the multiplayer focus games are dead because they're shit multiplayer games. look at how many ex starcraft 2 people were ready to jump onto stormgate only to find out it was garbage. it's not like they didn't give it a chance.
>>720515703That's where StarCraft 2 shines. The campaign is fun and teaches you everything you need to know (not talking about meta shit)
>>720515782>>720515808You guys are right, RTS is in such a good position as a genre, we're so overloaded with good RTS games lately!
>>720515872>teaches you everything you need to knowSC2 multiplayer looks nothing like the single player because they kept desperately redesigning the multiplayer component to try and make it more popular
>>720515808>all of the multiplayer focus games are dead because they're shit multiplayer games.ThisIt's not about being MP, it's about them being shit. Like Arena Shooters, everything that tried was just copying Quake and not Unreal, and Quake 3 kinda sucks. Doing a worse job than the og is 2 times bad.
>>720515892>RTS is in such a good position as a genreWhere the fuck did I say that? RTS is dead, it's been dead since WC3
>>720515892rts is in the same position as rock music. if they want people to pay attention to it they have to capture an audience that won't care about you unless you're better than the shit they had 20 (50) years ago.
>>720510274>It's no wonder the game is completely dead now.In what universe? I swear you people don't play games.
Truth NukeI am playing RTS right now and having fun in MPYou just don't wanna launch any of them cause you're anxious.Learn to lose. Lose to learn. Learn to win. The cycle is fun.
>>720516000Define dead
>>720516117>Learn to lose. Lose to learn. Learn to win. The cycle is fun.LIVE TO WIN'TILL YOU DIE
>>720516129No longer the most popular PC game genre, no longer being developed by AAA companies, no longer being innovated on in any way at all
>>720516198>>720516117
>>720513357he said innovate not copy TA yet again
>>720515359>if you're playing 1v1You are either illiterate or breathtakingly stupid
>>720515937How so? Unit and their function remain the same
>>720515306It's not though. In fact it's one of the genres where single player never matches up to the full potential of the genre. There's no way to do it because the AI is always too retarded to give you a good match and doesn't react in ways like a real person does. This leads to shit like AI getting cheats like bonus resources or reduced production times, which in turn destroy the entire premise of having an even strategic battle with an equal opponent. Even when the AI is actually difficult to beat, it ends up being predictable and formulaic so once you figure out how to exploit its behavior to win you can pretty much repeat it over and over to keep on winning, it's more of a puzzle to figure out once than actual matches of a strategy game against an adaptable and unpredictable opponent.RTS against the computer just gets really boring, really fast since the computer can't actually play properly. You've got campaigns and shit which can be fun and enjoyable, but nothing is going to solve the fundamental gameplay problem I describe. RTS is most properly enjoyed against an even opponent who can actually do everything you can do and in all the RTS games I've played that only ever happened when playing against other people.>>720515602They're more like top-down RPGs with the camera unlocked from your 1 character, there's hardly any similarity whatsoever with RTS beyond extremely surface level stuff like the fact that they both control with a mouse. A control scheme doesn't make a game genre.
>>720516659>Unit and their function remain the sameNo they don't, multiplayer is full of units and mechanics that aren't even in the campaign
Last time I actually had fun with a RTS was pic rel and the CPU were fucking cheaty as fuck in custom games
The rise of ASSFAGGOTS, and Blizzart not taking their competitive scene seriously until Overwatch and they fucked that up as well
>>720515937And the game is 15 years old, small balance changes keep things fresh. And the changes are not that big to throw away the campaign knowledge imo
>>720516668>there's hardly any similarity whatsoever with RTSthey're action strategy games
>>720516217>No longer the most popular PC game genre, It was never the most popular, it had a heyday in the 90's and 2000's but even then things like RPGs and FPSs were bigger. >no longer being developed by AAA companies, Paradox>no longer being innovated on in any way at allOver the years we've seen leaps in resource management (later AOE2 updates), social building (Songs of Syx), grand strat (Paradox's output), and narrative (Frostpunk).
>>720516706Like?
>>720516802During the peak of RTS games they were the most popular PC game genre tied with FPSParadox is not an AAA company, and calling grand strategy games RTS is a bit of a stretch
>>720516775They're not. They're RPGs where you level a character really quickly from 0 to max, during a single match. You can call 'em whatever the fuck you want but they have absolutely nothing of substance in common with RTS games.
>>720507678>why did people stop playing RTS games? because they weren't fun for most peoplewhy is this a question?
>>720516852widow mine isn't in single playerliberator isn't in single playerthere's other things too but I barely played the multiplayer
>>720516981Those units are from the multiplayer of the expansions. You can switch between them in options. And they appear on them, the thing it's that you don't control them but you know what they do.
>>720516919RTS games and RPGs are both strategy games where you deal with groups of units on a boardRTS and MOBA games also both action games with similar control schemesThey're more similar than you think, DOTA is a WC3 mod, and it's not even that different to WC3
>>719906827>>719906258This bullshit thread again?
>>720516904>Paradox is not an AAA companyTheir immense wealth, sales figures, and valuable IP expansion would beg to differ>and calling grand strategy games RTS is a bit of a stretchA stretch I'm limber enough to perform
>>720517092widow mine isn't in single player at allliberator is in nova covert ops, i forgot about thatmany units are also significantly different like the reaper i think
>>720514521I mean you're the one sitting here coping by saying "a-akshually all their actions are meaningless so high apm doesn't mean anything". Prove it by climbing a ladder while sticking to some arbitrarily low APM number. You wouldn't want to be a "gookclicker," right? You want to focus on "muh strategy," right? So go climb a ladder with grandpa APM like 60 or something.You won't, of course, because you are just coping about not being good at RTS games.
>>720517117AAA is a level of production value which Paradox doesn't come close togrand strategy games and colony sims are descended from RTS but they aren't really the same thing
>>720517095I played thousands of hours of WC3 and of DotA, the actual WC3 map before Valve bought it up to make DotA 2. They have effectively nothing in common beyond the control scheme and the assets because DotA was just a custom map recycling those. You have no clue what you're talking about, I don't think you actually played any of the things you're trying to discuss.
>>720514601Yeah basically. Shitters cope about being bad at RTS games in a variety of ways.
>>720517301Many heroes in Dota have their abilities taken from WC3 almost unchangedSome heroes are from WC3 almost unchanged like brewmaster
>>720517348you sound like a coping shitter
>>720517197Please quote where I said your troll quote
>>720517197>So go climb a ladder with grandpa APM like 60 or somethingI get your point but also it's totally possible to climb ladder with 40-60apm in any RTS besides Starcraft (SC is just spastic shit, that's why you need so much clicks)
>>720515872>That's where StarCraft 2 shines. The campaign is fun and teaches you everything you need to know (not talking about meta shit)UhhhSC2 campaign might be fun for some people, has shit story tho, yes, but to teach you MP? that's not really the case, they play vastly different.I mean if its the bar entry maybe, like teaching people to click with the mouse. AoE campaigns do a much better job at that IMO, because it's always the same game, same sandbox and same-ish values as MP, just an scenario in a campaign mission.
>>720507678No games. And the few new RTS they did release have no good singleplayer content.
>>720519115https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrFe08sgKX493Gax5DFNkpEbgICGDc0YJa top aoe2 player did a challenge where he had a mod that hard limited him to 60 apm (which was more like 15 eapm) and peaked at 1600 elo.
>>720517301Dota 2 and Warcraft 3 have nothing in common, absolutely nothing except the attribute system, the way damage is calculated - physical, magic resist and the damage types, the control scheme, turn rate, base attack time, map elevation, interactable trees, unit collision, control groups, a day and night cycle, oh wait source 1 dota 2 was a near 1:1 ultra faithful port of the game supervised by a guy who was incredibly well versed in the warcraft 3 engine
>>720514826You are fat and old and will never be good at anything because you are too much of a coward to try.
>>720519115>>720520151People have done identical challenges in both Broodwar and Starcraft 2.
>>720518651Its the entire basis of making light of "meaningless clicks," or "gookclicking" or whatever you want to call it, which you have absolutely done. A person who isn't salty and coping would recognize it for what it is, a measurement of one's ability to administer commands and multitask, and if someone is truly doing something 'meaningless' then its probably just because they are trying to maintain a particular mental or physical groove.Instead you just cope and seethe because you are bad and thats reflected by your poor ability to multitask, aka you have low APM. Classic Fox and the Grapes shit right here.
GuysGuysWhat about this ideaRTS, but OPEN WORLD
RTS is a solved genre. Once you played the classics you played them all. No one gives a shit about playing starcraft/aoe clone #252. Only exception is if the game gets good art direction, music, writing etc. but those sorts of quality art focused games would succeed regardless of genre.This is also the case with a lot of other genres. It's just how nature works. A new thing appears, it starts growing and suddenly it can't really grow anymore, starts to get old and die.
>>720513914Multiplayer matches are more fun in RTS like Supreme Commander/Beyond All Reason/Total Annihilation and games like Age of Empires 2 or 4, Company of Heroes 2/DOW etc...All these RTS have one thing in common! No gook click.
>>720514901are you okay anon? it's gotta be hard to fight these strawmen
>>720516904>calling grand strategy games RTS is a bit of a stretchReal Time? Real TimeStrategy? StrategyCity Builders and Tycoons are RTS tooTrue that there should be a term for the "classic" RTS but to call them so is not an error
they stopped making them
>>720524065>AoE2 or 4>CoH>no gook clickyou've never played these
>>720523021irony or not, how is that even supposed to work? I remember a thread on /vst/ suggesting the same thing and literally nobody could come up with a good explanation of how and most importantly why.
>>720507678They are inherently off-putting. Putting stress on people to make constant economic and aggressive strategic decisions while micromanaging a billion units with special abilities is not fun, its like herding cats while cooking dinner. Having to click a billion times a second while following strict build guides is also autistic. This is why so many casuals had retarded requests like "20min no rush", they want to focus on base building and aggression separately.RTS eventually fractured because there was just too much happening, strategy was either slowed down for total war shit or it was made turn based with 4x, base building became tower defence and hero units with special abilities span off into mobas. All of these subgenres went on to become incredibly successful while RTS died.
>>720525216>following strict build guidesthat's on (You)>it was made turn based with 4x4x is as old (if not older) as the traditional RTS formula>base building became tower defenceSave for mobileshit I don't recall many successful modern TDs
RTS was carried by customs and campaign instead of versus. Devs didn't understand and now the genre is mostly dead.
>>720525319Yes, there is an optimal build order, much like chess. This shifts with certain variables but its still full of perfunctory, rote shit.4x and RTS were being formed simultaneously, civilisation was initially supposed to be real time. You can always trace back genre origins to obscure earlier releases but they were solidified by the shit people actually played.You're being pedantic, MOBAS, grand strategy and 4x are inarguably more successful than RTS and they are all distillations of various game design principles that exist within RTS. Even if tower defence never reached those highs, that shitty bloons mobile game has more active players on steam than every single traditional RTS game besides AoE2.
>>720507678As much as MOBA's role is undeniable, it's overestimated. The classic RTS model is simply incredibly stale and not fit for the modern consumer.>single playerShort, fully linear experience, no replayability. Three major sins in the eyes of a modern normalfag gamer. Also self-explaining reason why classic RTS is basically dead while Total War, GSG and 4X are still kicking. The fact that story campaigns are in most cases de facto puzzle games with super-braindead AI doesn't help it either.>multiplayerIf it's PvP then it's the same issues as with fighting games, which is "if I lose I have to admit that I'm worse". And pussies don't want to admit that. They don't want to improve either. Team games become a shitfest while coop is mostly boring.>modding/customsNobody wants another DOTA case so modding and customs are verbotten.If you want an RTS renaissance you either have to accept that it cannot be the same genre you love in order to attract new (younger) players or come up with a revolutionary idea that will remind everyone of its existence without alienating the veterans.
>>720507678People outside of 80 pound koreans only play Starcraft for the campaign. After Wings of Liberty everyone saw that the story was going to straight to shit after the ending and didn't bother with the sequels. Plus no one likes playing as the Zerg.
Is Gothic Armada an RTS?
>>720526425All 3 are blatantly false
>>720526280It can never be revived because you cant really get around the fact that the strategic decisions in turn based or slower strategy games are more satisfying and accessible. COH was the closest they got to a truly great RTS without all the autistic, nostalgic shit.If it ever comes back it will be as a weird PvE co-op genre.
>>720507678brood war is better
>>720507678I just played sc2
>>720515232Anon, FORSEN was a Starcraft 2 pro. Why are RTStards still pretending the genre is hard?It's boring because the game gets solved super quickly in multiplayer, you do the exact same build order every game and play the same way every game.
its even not clear in RTS games exactly what you are supposed to be doing. even in campaigns its kind of confusing
Why are all new RTS military or SCI-FI? Where's all the fantasy RTS games?Imagine a new RTS game with a robust map creator.
>>720527963Same reason all rpgs are fantasy, DnD nerds made that genre and military nerds made RTS.
Why didn't Blizz just make something else with the Starcraft IP? Ghost was an old as hell attempt, but I imagine there is still a lot that can be done with it.
>>720516074>>720515627Go back to plebbit, copelet. Tournaments used to get 300k+ live views, it used to be on fucking ESPN. You could fill out huge venues like blizzcon and dreamhack. Now nobody wants to bother hosting a tournament anymore because its always a revenue loss. Every former major tournament had shut down or dropped sc2 save for what, one? Maybe? >muh community funded online tournies with $100 prize poolsAlso there is literally nobody working on the game. I have heard a lpne hacker has basically taken control of the custom arcade for weeks now and there's nobody to stop him.
>>720528149Everyone who made sc, brood war and sc2 have left the company anon. Do you really want Starcraft Immortal for Android ios?
>>720513681/threadeven to this day, AI battles in Garry's Mod scratches an itch that nothing else can
>>720528149What's there to do with it? They murdered the universe with SC2's insanely retarded campaign. Not as badly as they've murdered Warcraft's universe, but considering they did it in only 1 game I would say they did a more brutal job of it.
>>720528149Piratesoftware doesn't work there anymore, so they lost their biggest talent
in the same niche as fighting gamessolo or small team sweaty games with high skill floor against people who have been playing since they were kidsthe game is mostly figured out and you need to execute the same openers well just to get to the real meat of the gameeasier to just play a moba which are same enougheven my friends who used to be diamond moved onto doto, we haven't played SC2 or another rts in years now
>>720528282>and there's nobody to stop himKEK
>>720509173They fucked it up with that ridiculous studder step.
>>720512974Lole you can beat every mission on brutal with just pure macro
>>720529119>solo or small team sweaty games with high skill floor against people who have been playing since they were kids>the game is mostly figured out and you need to execute the same openers well just to get to the real meat of the game>easier to just play a moba which are same enoughThat's Starcraft onlyStarcraft has done an irreparable damage against the african american community
500 apm just to play rock paper scissors. Fighting games actually require higher skill levels because players can't infinite drop cheese and/or turtle forever
>mobas and RTS are pretty much the samesaid by someone that has never played a moba
>>720530506>what are throw loops
>>720530506> just to play rock paper scissorsBut so are fighting games? some characters are better against some characters and have an advantage,
>>720507678They stopped buying RTS games because they reached perfection with starcraft 1 and stopped
>>720530530>ctrl+C ctrl+F ctrl+Vmust be nice winning arguments you yourself came up with. The thing i've seen people saying though is that the wc3 crowd moved onto mobas via dota. Which is the same thing if you're retarded
>>720530649>>720530690>he needs 500 apm to do throw loopslearn to read KEK
I'd say there are 4 main reasons1. nobody is making them anymore2. MOBAs took the best parts of RTS games (microing your units in battles) and made that the entire game 3. Huge split between the good players and the bad ones, you play for 10 minutes then you die 4. Difficult to improve, if you die in a MOBA you can tell why, not enough damage, didnt hit skillshots, took too many tower shots, in an RTS its more like well you put slightly too many villagers on wood instead of stone 18 minutes ago so now the enemy has more guys than you, in a MOBA its something obvious that just happened, in an RTS its something small that happened 20 minutes agoIf you wanted to revive the RTS scene you would need a company to release an RTS with an actually good campaign to get casuals interested and a good tutorial so enough of the casuals can be converted into multiplayer players so you arent just playing against people who have been playing the game for 30 hours per day every day since they were 8
>>720517197I'm not going to play a game I don't enjoy you spastic fucktard. I'm going to play games where the APM requirement continues to not be a problem because the UI isn't dogshit meant to sap your attention and time.
>>720512541'perfectly balanced' was never fun, it was good for tournaments maybe but for when you wanted to have fun not really.>Agi based hero>Buy agi tome, attack speed increase, physical damage resistense increase>Buy vamp mask>Gg
>>720530809https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDx_swuA74Ewow this looks so easy I'm glad it's not hard like gookclick
>>720531693MvC2 is extremely fucking gay.
>>720507678The game is too stressful, much more stressful than fighting games. Matches could last one hour if you're unlucky with constant thinking and multi-tasking. Only game to make me break out in a cold sweat. The best feeling when you win, and utterly crushing when you lose. Most people don't want this intensity.
>>720509173They waited way too long to implement things like the Coop mode that they have today, and the different 'champions' you could unlock to go through the missions. As it is today, I think it could kind of serve as a casual pve game with occasional sweaty matches, but everyone has moved way past this genre.
>>720511860>bunch of hype and zero fun factor.
This was a good one too.Unfortunate how the sequel turned out.
>>720531693https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNB2irBPPLQanyone can post bot games KEEEEK
>>720507678consoles + casualization
>>720526483Its an RTT but its a VERY good oneBFGA2 is excellent
>>7205339151 had some extreme bullshit and gamebreaking bugs tho
>>720533760they should port more rts to consoles
>>720531124If you don't enjoy it then shut the fuck up about it and stick to your tasty apple, Fox.
>>720510274The game was made way easier than brood war when they eliminated the necessity for micromanaging units. Making huge death balls of units isn’t hard when the game lets you control more than 12 units, and that’s what every game in SC2 consisted of, two giant armies smashing into each other before someone ggs. It doesn’t matter if a game has a gigantic skill curve, as long as it’s still fun to play. I fucking love watching Koreans play brood war because they’re superhuman players and the insane shit they do via micromanagement is insane to watch. It’s when they make a game too easy that you no longer have superhumans to watch, just tons of people rolling the same boring meta. You’re completely upside down in your assessment.
should I download starcraft 2?
>>720514035The true pros have high APM because they’re actually issuing a ridiculous number of commands, not clicking an empty space for the sake of it. If APM hadn’t become a visible metric to spectators I guarantee you these other guys wouldn’t be artificially inflating their little power level statistic.
>>720515616uh, anon..you only get to warcraft I/dune if you select "I want to play the classics". it has that as a reason. I don't think you know to read these charts. put simply, if you care about the gameplay you will NOT even look at warcraft I (or analogy wolfenstein 3d)
>>720514035You fucking retard, you warm up shortly beforehand, not during a lull in a fucking song or fight. You're wasting energy and mental effort.
>>720536679No. Get fucked.
>>720507678i'm still playing "Age of" games. maybe you should stop playing dead blizzslop, blizzard cultist?
>>720538375early game in starcraft IS the click warmup period you smelly niggeruse it or lose it
>>720515872The campaign doesn’t even include the new units that kept getting introduced… even then, by the time you’re given access to the full build tree there’s maybe 2 missions remaining. Nearly all of the campaign missions confine you to using a unit’s gimmick ad nauseam while being pressured by some form of a countdown. My favorite missions were the ones that let me actually fucking think on my own about my army composition and how to simply kill the enemy, but I stg there’s maybe 5 like that across the campaigns.>you just want to turtle and then go stomp the enemy, that’s too easyPlay the “to slay the beast” mission in Brood War and tell me it’s too easy. It’s fucking hard. Ironically enough the only way I know to beat it is to NOT turtle and seize control of the main island ASAP.
>>720507678play dis
>>720538626yikes
>>720510274>It's no wonder the game is completely dead now.Always the same dance with you fags.The game is not dead. Far from it.You're just a bronze-shitter coping.
>>720538532No, that's retarded.
>mission where you have a handful of dudes and have to micro them through a series of engagements>wave defense mission (you can actually leave your base and take the fight to the hideously overdeveloped enemy base)That's the stuff
>enemy Scud Storm is firing
>>720538626I played that game for a bit, and it really reminded me of saying by some anon here that no matter what game japs do, it always turns into a VN. Waiting for a full translation to give it a full playthrough.
Until the 2010's, RTS was still sort of treated like a genre anybody could play at least with the campaign with some nice side content depending on mods. After that, everything had to be hardcore, e-sports e-tactical which was great for the ultra-competitive players but aliennated everyone else.Can even see this in shit like Iron Harvest where they throw endless waves of high tier units at you because the dev's couldn't be arse to make actual campaign missions.
>>720507678I think it's less that people stopped rather the game market massively expanded while RTS genre didn't expand at the same rate as the rest of the market. It's also not the most profitable type of game to make thanks to that so naturally companies chasing trends won't make games in the RTS genre
>>720525021Haven't played it in years, but Rift breaker seemed to be something like that, you can go back and forth between different part of the world to advance in the story.
>>720543087that's not an rts, that's an arpg where you only control 1 unit.
>>720507678>Made a genuinely cinematic feeling AAA RTS>Nice innovations and impressive tech>Good use of storytelling, with expansion telling the antagonist story>89 on Metacritic>Forgotten and the studio forced to work on Tom Clancy slopI hate modern gamers, but this falls on Ubishart too.
>>720507678protoss
>>720507678The meta of MP and casual play appeals are too far from each other.
>>720507678Because people prefer to play games, not work them.
