What is the design value of runbacks?
>>720758389they are not an issue unless you suck like a bitch at the game and have to repeat the same boss over and over again
mom said it's my turn to attack
>>720758389making the level part of the boss challenge, it has no value here when it's just a free walk to waste your time
>>720758389I hate how people have started acting like runbacks are some archaic thing of the past that were only there to get people to insert more coins. The real issue is they are often poorly. Good one's incentivize exploration, so you look for shortcuts to make it shorter. They have enemies you can't easily run past, so it doesn't feel like monotonous running. And they have bosses that take into account the fact you may have fought things before them.
>>720758389ideally a long and difficult runback has an easy boss. The "boss" is then in the actual level, improvement becomes getting to the boss with more resources (flasks, magi, etc.)Of course not even the original DS did this since O&S is behind one of the most dogshit runbacks of all time. No game has ever done long runbacks well, so it's safe to say it'll be easier just to get rid of them entirelyNot sure what you're posting Wuchang for. That game's runbacks are relatively short
these sorts of games usually have an emphasis on exploring the environment. So the combination of tough bosses and requiring you to navigate back to them means the player is more likely to experience the whole environment.
>>720759882>Not sure what you're posting Wuchang for. That game's runbacks are relatively shortBecause I just finished it so that's the footage I have. But it's not about short or long. All the early reviews criticized it for runbacks, but like you said they're not even "that bad" compared to earlier Souls. I do question the value of some of them though because I can see the value in Demon's Souls where it was about traversing the whole level again, and they were longer. But the one in webm related is just walking in an empty corridor and sliding down a long ladder. There are also multiple elevator runbacks in the game. Ladders and elevators aren't interesting traversal/exploration friction.
>>720758389each time you die you are slightly more refined because you are playing more conservatively.
>>720758389I thought it was another Silent Fill thread
>>720758763My only gripe with some of the bosses is how stagger works with them.With big bosses, they are generally OK, you can't insta-stagger them, they are generally slower so you can get in clean hits and slowly build up the meter until they stagger, but some bosses run away and even in just 5 seconds it resets the stagger meter. The final boss is the worst for this, I think I've staggered him like once or twice in my 12 playthroughs, most of which took a few tries on him.For the human bosses, the fact they can be instantly staggered just in one attack by getting behind them I guess gave the dev the mind set of "oh I can make them as spammy as possible since one opening makes the fight basically over" and so you end up with your webm.
>>720763240White Elder is a bit of an exception because his gimmick is that he punishes all your learned reflexes. Which they copied from one of the best FS bosses (Owl). But they made him harder because he's optional.>some bosses run awayAct 4 and 5 bosses are so annoying about this. Like Elden Beast or Astel in ER, spend half the fight running after them in some fuck huge arena. They even copy the worst bits from FS.
>>720759319Yeah, it only makes sense when you actually have to engage with the level. If you just blaze past everything then it's a time waster.
>>720758389Old Souls games had runbacks because bosses were easy. You were meant to be cautious and dying to them was a punishment, not an expected outcomeBut because redditors and retard kept going on about "OMG LE EBIN PREPARE TO DIE LE BOSSES SO DIFFICULT OMG", starting with TOH (or arguably AotA) Fromsoft has been pushing all the challenge into trial and error bossfghts.Thing is, they understood this required reducing the runbacks. Some devs may not have gotten the memo
Atomic breath
The lack of runbacks is what made the bosses in Elden Ring so ridiculous because now they no longer have to accommodate for the level.Bosses should not be a huge draw, the world should because these games do not have good enough gameplay to justify such stupid bosses. Granted, the open world nature of Elden Ring kinda destroys the level focus in general for that game.
>>720764194I didn't think any other bosses were that bad. Tiger does it a bit but good positioning can keep him closer to you, and the Emperor doesn't really run too far other than for his super attacks which I'm fine with. It's mostly just the final boss since he moves around so much and his flying lightning attack goes so long it reset his stagger almost every time, plus he gets more stalling moves in phase 2 as well.
>Die to a boss>Could have just had simple retry option appearing at the death screen >Instead, the developer is making me run a world of warcraft raid marathon back to the bossWhy did this game design element get reused so much over the years anyways? There's no fundamental, interesting design philosophy behind it. There's no benefit, it just pads things out pointlessly. What the hell?
>>720765493Just git gud It's that easy.
>>720765493Don't know. Maybe it was just to pad out time. They said they're going to patch in the option to just respawn on the boss door for Wuchang at least
>>720758389What game is this I was too focused on the player's ass
>>720758389To punish you for being bad at the game
>>720758389They are punishment for dying. more punishment means you are more emotionally invested in success/failure for boss attempts.
>>720765493> There's no fundamental, interesting design philosophy behind it.wrongYou "people" are low IQ. basically dumb animals. I hate you morons so much its crazy. die die die
>>720758389At least in 2d games like shartsong the movement alone makes runbacks more tolerable. In dark souls slop games they are inexcusable
>>720766542Wuchang: Fallen Feathers
>defeat a boss once - never have to beat the boss again>clear a level/runback a dozen times - still have to clear it everytime?
I have an idea>die to a boss>have to click left mouse button for the whole 5 minutes, if you stop the meter goes down and you have to start over to respawn againThis would punish the player for dying and increase the importance of every encounter with the boss, as the player have to value every life and try he has. This would make the player more emotionally invested to the game. Not only that, but it would increase the amount of overall playtime required to beat the game, which is always a positive thing
>>720766581That's pretty much it. Just acquire proficiency and you won't have to run back.
>>720767935more like wuchang : hardened penis lol
>>720758389To artificially inflate playtime for better metrics.
>>720765493>DYING SHOULD HAVE NO CONSEQUENCES OR IT'S BAD GAME DESIGN >:(((((
>>720758389The goal of game design should be to inflict suffering on the player. Look at Wizardry 1 for example.
>>720769269>all this seethe over dying in a gamejust get good bro.
>>720758389Increasing challenge while maintaining fairness. Not all combat frameworks are robust enough to support challenge being consolidated within a single area, so to avoid having to resort to cheap tricks they make the boss part of a larger encounter. >OP webmIn this case it's chinks cargo culting Fromsoftware. They have no idea what they're doing or why they're doing it.
>>720758389to teach you to ignore 99% of the game because "muh souls muh boss fights"
