Explain in detail how was Arthas in the wrong
>>720968670he said it in a mean voice
Killing a lot of innocent people is bad, even if he had very, very good reasons for doing it. That kind of thing should be considered abhorrent and weigh on you, you don't justify war crimes just because they were done For The Greater Good.
>>720968670He was not wrong, no matter what happened they were going to die and Arthas's method was far less cruel than the alternative
>>720968670Everyone's a bit retarded in WC3 so genocide really ain't no big deal.
He purged the city in bad faith
>>720968670He wasn't, normies hated him for making a drastic decision that didn't suit his paladin image, but the decision itself wasn't uncalled for, it was actually good given the situation. I he didn't purge Stratholme then plague would spread far north.
>>720968670Nah
>>720968670the only wrong thing he did was not explain to uther how fucked the city already wasuther seemed to think they could cure the infection somehow and didnt know the peasants just instantly become zombies
>>720968670>Uther, i have dire intel that these people might be beyond saving already>What?! Then we must save as many as we can!>You are right, Uther. But if there is any hope, we must act at once.>You lead, lad. Lady Proudmoore, Knights of the Silver Hand, with me! .....>enter the city>see that its already too late>neither Uther nor Jaina has to sperg out, since confronted with undeniable reality>maybe they actually even save some 50 uninfected people
>>720968670killing bad mkay?
>>720968756>i am a cuck and love watching my wife getting railed by zombies and ghouls
>>720968670he was right but didnt had to be RUDE about it
>>720970015Wasn't Arthas like awake for a solid week by this point? The Hearthglen defense took days of real time.
He wasn't. He only went off the deep end after the event. Note that his father welcomed him with open arms when he came back from Northrend, despite the purge, and his people still followed him to the end.
>>720968670The city was filled with people of color.
>>720970015this would require competent writers that actually understand their own story
>>720970225we can assume Arthas was deeply shaken, under extreme stress and very worried/ concerned about the scourge, as well as furious at its spreaders. So yes, he probably wasnt in an ideal state of mind
>>720970270>Note that his father welcomed him with open arms>arthas walks in>covered in skulls>looks like death>evil insane smile>evil looking sword>"you no longer need to bear the weight of your crown"What the fuck was Terenas thinking?
>>720970735his son was just in his goth phase
>>720970815>"It's not a phase, father!"
>>720970735>The Northrend expedition and the war against Death itself must have takend a heavy toll on my son>after our official welcomes, i will listen to his concerns and worries and try to comfort him
>>720970735he was thinking DAMN LOOK AT MAH BOI
His decision in stratholme probably saved lives but it went against what that paladins stood for, it wasnt until northrend that he truly lost his soul and let vengeance take over.
>>720970735
>>720968670he needed 20 years of the same thread to try to gaslight people into thinking he might have had a point
>>720971337all he really needed was 20 minutes though...
I don't get what the alternative choice is supposed to be other than to purge the city.>Oh, lets just wait for them to turn into ghouls and zombies>Then it's okay to kill themFucking retarded nigger monkeys, it's super jewish logic to think it isn't okay to purge the city when they would very quickly become undead anyway because of some retarded idea that "it's always wrong to kill innocents even though they will quickly become a threat to others". Uther was a virtue signalling faggot, like the libertarian retards that cry "MUH NAP", as if you are supposed to wait for them to clearly become a problem.
>>720971673The point is there is no alternative choice. It's meant to get him into the mindset that sometimes you have to do bad things because you have no other option, and then later that slips to do bad things because it's more efficient, and then later it's fuck it let's just be evil.I don't care if the writers said later that actually he was wrong and should have done something else, they're wrong and should shut up.
>>720971673the correct choice for a Paladin would have been "try to save as many uninfected as you can"
>>720968670He made no real effort to 'save the city.' He killed a bunch of innocent people (many of which were probably not even plagued), and then instead of actually helping the survivors rebuild their city and protect them from the undead horrors, he immediately leaves them to chase some demon across the entire fucking world.Arthasfags would have a leg to stand on if he had actually prioritized his people in any way instead of abandoning them for petty revenge.
>>720971673The problem is that he didnt even TRY. He stood before the city gates and before even the very first dude turned we went "Yeah, slaughter them all." He easily could have gone >>720970015and then still went for a purge once he realized how dire it became. But he didnt.
>>720972152Clearly not, because his paladin powers grew even stronger after culling Stratholme.
>>720972323>break down house>literally everyone inside turns zombie if you waitNo.
>>720970149why do you describe yourself?
>>720968670>Explain in detail how was Arthas in the wronghe wasn't.there's the correct thing to do and the nessesary thing to do, which are 2 different things, and rarely overlap, sometimes you need to cut your loses, and a whole city turned into an undead army is a serious threat for the rest of people that you can still save.
>>720968670He was hysterical and turned the conversation into an unnecessary confrontation.
>>720971536Could Chromie (Male, on account of the trans one hanging themselves) show Uther and Jaina that Arthas was right?
>>720973559I don't recall that character from WC3
>>720971673>Paladin and plenty of priests available>Didn't just go around casting Cleanse and Dispel Magic on the infectedArthas was a retard
>Arthas was right to kill a city full of innocent people to stop the infection from spreading>but politicians were wrong to ask people to stay home for a few weeks to stop COVID
>>720973927Does not work, to this day there is no cure to the blight and if allowed to fully infect someone it infects their very soul to the point where it need to be destroyed in super hell.By killing their bodies, Arthas did save their souls, sort of funny how WoW keeps saying Arthas was wrong while it keeps adding more lore that makes purging the city correct.
>>720968670Let the Dreadlord get away
>>720970015This.If he didn't drop the entirety of what needs to be done all at once, it would have probably turned out perfectly fine.
>>720968670>Explain in detail how was Arthas in the wrongArthas had the right idea, but: >>720970015 >>720970225 >>720970623Arthas at that point had become spastic in his obsession with the Scourge Campaign, not for no reason; he knew what was at stake, he wasn't underestimating the enemy, and he had to act and take decision undesirable action or risk even greater suffering. Arthas couldn't communicate that at the time though since he was on like no sleep in-between forced marches and being personally waist deep in undead. Arthas was also weirdly vindicated since neither Uther nor Jaina actually had the guts to protect Lordaeron from the Scourge:-Uther was so infatuated with "honor" and "dignity" that he could barely keep the feral orc cling-ons in Alterac from literally raiding rural towns. When the Scourge came a 2nd time around he was basically a non-issue - he could even protect his king's ashes from Arthas. -Jaina has always been a fucking mess. Take your pick: running away, sympathizing with the orcs over her own father, etc.
>>720974754>running awayThis act saved the world, and she was right on the fucking frontline against Archimonde during the Hyjal defense.
>>720974131>it infects their very soul to the point where it need to be destroyed in super hellwasn't there one dude in WotLK who got cleansed before he died?
Uther really did fuck everything up by disobeying his Prince.
>>720975052Nah, he got incinerated with dragonfireThe only thing that cured was getting soulkilled by the plague
Reminder that that to this day in canonical lore, over 20 years later, there is no cure to Undeath. Uther's "surely there's another way, lets quarantine for now and think about it!" still has no merit even retroactively with 20 years worth of hindsight.
>>720974131>Does not work, to this day there is no cure to the blight and if allowed to fully infect someone it infects their very soul to the point where it need to be destroyed in super hell.That is incredibly gay and retarded.>YEAH BRO we got this super disease that both bodily and spiritually fucks you over lmaaaaooo>What are we gonna use it for? uuuuh stinky grain...? Nevermind we don't even need to do the disease thing and can just irrevocably and totally ruin a soul without the enemies consent.Literally why not just walk around throwing this as the normal everyday weapon? The reason, mental retardation in blizzards writing team and whatever culture that breeds that retarded corruption fetish they all collectively have.
>>720974754It's only with the benefit of hindsight that we know allowing the orcs to live was a good decision even if they killed many, many people afterwardWarcraft is all about those lesser evil choices
>>720968756It is abhorrent and should definitely weigh on you, but it should also be done. Guilt and moral anguish shouldn't prevent you doing what needs to be done.
>>720975254What about the whole light undead thing with Arthas' sister?
>>720975284Are you stupid?Throwing around a 'normal every day weapon' might kill a few dozen. Fucking up the food source of an entire city kills thousands - and without implicating you either.
>>720970984Maybe the paladin philosophy was bullshit all along.
>>720975416Never said it shouldn't. There was literally no other choice, the whole point is that sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones, but you need to choose anyway.
>>720975429You are actually dumb if that's what you take from what I wrote.
>>720975373>implying the scourge wasn't started by an orc
>>720975504Maybe you shouldn't have irretrievably reduced your argument to the absurd with a dichotomy of 'normal weapon' and 'stinky grain'.
>>720975284Because the orcs threatened to wipe Lordaeron off the face of the planet if the plague was used again, they had the mana bomb ever since BCSylvanas got MAD plot armor by surviving after the plague was deployed in Northrend
>>720970735>Holy fuck thank the Light my only son is alive
WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU JUST SAY YOU FUCKING CHUDIVE YOU KNOW I WORKED ON WC3 SO ONLY MY OPINION MATTERS
>>720975530Might as well blame the Draenei since Ner'zhul was tasked with creating the Scourge by one, oh, actually maybe we should blame Sargeras because he made the Draenei evil and all, oh but he was only doing that because of the Void, so maybe we should blame them. Fuck it, why not just blame cosmic forces for everything?
He could have at least given Uther and Jaina a chance to suggest and probably fail to come up with an alternative plan, like >>720970015 saidPart of me is bothered when the 'moral' characters only get to survive AND keep their hands clean because someone else dared to commit the sin of actually doing something about the problem
>>720968670He was in the wrong when he picked a cursed soul-eating sword while thinking he could control it.
>>720975421Isn't she just a normal Forsaken Priest?
>>720975791No, I think she specifically went through some special undead resurrection via Light fuckery. I don't recall the specifics since I don't dead the books.
>>720975870Turns out the Light can do the same sorts of shit the Void can do if you have enough exposure to it. Hence Light aligned undead.
>>720968670Arthas's ONLY mistake was when he got to northrend, he didn't listen to his bro Muradin when he warned him about how evil the clearly evil sword was.stratholm NEEDED to burn, his inability to convince jaina and uther was entirely a failing of arthas's shitty charisma, and history of being a petulant princely ponce.
>>720975649Everything is the jailor's fault
>>720976665Until we find out there's a big bad behind him
Arthas was right and the writers of WoW being such fucking niggers that his soul is now fucking destroyed so he can't even rest in death will never not make me angry
>>720975630Did he really compare the fucking cough to the plague of undeath?
>>720976698Reminder that Sylvannas got away with everything.
>>720976773I fucking love these
>>720976773>arthas' final moments were for a sylvanas monologuegrim
>>720976773I will never not be angry and I will never give them money again
>>720976489This whole concept is fucking retarded and makes aligning with a certain cosmic force(another retarded concept) boil down to "pick your favourite colour".
>>720976816
>>720976995We should have listened to Daniel.
>>720976995Do you have the I miss my wife one?
>>720977041Haven't saved it sadly.
>>720976995>>720977092I love this
The objectively correct answer is that Arthas 100 percent made the correct decision. He knew the grain was poisoned and it was only a matter of time. A small amount of undead before put a sizeable dent in his army. A full town of them could have spelt doom. Any delay in his plan would reduce the chances of minimising losses.However, Arthas was fucking retarded in how he handled it and this is where he was wrong. When Uther questions him he instantly tells him to fuck off. All Arthas had to do was not sperg out and actually explain it.>This entire city must be purged.>How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!>Uther, I watched good men under my hand die to just a small number of these creatures. An infected city of this size could wipe out the kingdom, and it could happen at anytime. Come to the city with me, if some have already turned, you will see why there is no choice. If not, you have until the first citizen turns before I fulfill my duty to protect the kingdom.Legit just 2 seconds of thinking, but the writers decided to make Arthas a dumbfuck in this one moment for some reason
>>720975179no, he technically got cured before dying, but to be fair it took the power of the strongest paladin alive, the dragon aspects, and a literal god to cure him
>>720977092>>720976995Oh I found it. Its a second part to that daniel image I guess.
>>720977174Arthas' issue was that he was running completely ragged at that point, he was all over the place mentally and in a clear panic.
>>720968670I'm going to pirate this game because I played it as a child and don't even remember the story anymore.
>Countless hours of building things in SotDRP
>>720977664Past a certain point, it became impossible to actually play our stories with my RP group because everyone would spend 5 hours autistically building and then have no time to RP.
>>720974034i agree with bothin fact we should just have a 2 week long global lock-down every year, that would stop the spread of all kinds of diseases
>>720975416if it is the correct choice it is morally correct, thats what morality is. Its a system of reasoning that lets you arrive at the correct choice. Its lack of morality that has people operating on blind emotionsif it is taken as a moral axiom that you must try to preserve life then culling can be morally correct under circumstances where there is no better option.
>>720968670This was Uther's failure, no one else, he was too proud to settle the fuck down and truly consider that maybe, just maybe, Arthas had a good fucking reason to suggest burning a whole fucking city
>>720968670He forgot to bring chars and popcorn
>>720968756begs the question were they even war crimes? These people were already dead either way and I'd rather get paladin'd than turn into a fucking zombie
>>720978861Killing civilians is a war crime, yes, that's consistent even by Warcraft standards.
>>720978861Not only turned into a zombie, your soul would have been condemned for eternity in super hell. The people that Arthas killed went to heaven peacefully.
>>720978907>Killing civilians is a war crimenot directly. if you bomb a factory making weapons for example that is a military target, it's up to the enemy to keep their civilians away from military targets. if you strap your own civilians to a tank it is not a war crime to blow up that tank if you are invading with it.under the circumstances the civilians were bioweapons. the failure was letting it get that way to start with
>>720978215Looking at it in retrospective it would be more effective to have a single guy set up the whole map in the editor and only play after it's finished. But it was fun watching everyone working on their projects
>>720979172We tried the online save game function a few times, but I remember it having issues, and often people would want to build things again because they were bothered by the angle of one Barracks in their half-the-map city.
>>720968670Uther was the one who was being standoff-ish here.>Glad you could make it Uther.>Watch your tone with me, BOY. You may be the king's heir and have already accumulated more battlefield experience against this particular foe than me, but I got to slaughter orc civilians in the second war and am your superior as an r/silverhand moderator.Only thing Arthas did wrong was not behead that traitor right then and there for attempting to subvert his kingdom.
>>720978924That's a pretty good point.
>>720968670Arthas did nothing wrong, actually, he did everything right. Terenas had it coming and so did Uther.
>>720968670What was the kirin tor even doing with a magical plague spreading
I know this is a comfy WC3 thread and not a WoW thread but was the Horde accepting Sylvanas and her Forsaken a mistake? How much would the setting change if Thrall told the Tauren they are retarded and that Undead can't be fixed with love and kindness and Sylvanas had to just go it alone?
>>720968756spbpTo draw the blood of so many innocents should cause him to be forsaken by the light and lose his paladinhood, even if it was the correct thing to do as a prince. This is really obvious, your vows as a defender of what is Right and a hand of God ('the light') don't allow you to murder hundreds of civilians because they're doomed either way. So yeah 100% he should have done it but also it's a heinous crime. That's why it's such a great moment, because Uther and Jaina just instantly peace out as soon as the going gets tough and leave Arthas to do the hard work himself. And so he gets baited by Mal'ganis to come to Northrend, gets corrupted, etc. etc. It's all a beautiful test of character for everyone involved.What is insane to me, is that Uther is portrayed as a dindu good guy in later WoW whose only fault is that he resents Arthas for falling to darkness. Whereas really Uther was deeply at fault for abandoning Arthas, who was his charge by the way, when he had to make a tough decision. The same goes for Jaina, who was Arthas' lover but straight up bailed because she doesn't like to see nasty things.WCIII is such a great game because it portrays the characters as real people. Jaina is young and beautiful and smart but also naive and overly idealistic (kills her own father over orc cock) and shallow (I can't watch you do this). Uther is powerful and righteous and has the kind of wisdom that comes with age but is too rigid and set in his ways to truly guide Arthas. It's a shame modern Blizzard has forgotten how to write good characters entirely and either substitutes characters sheets for personality (black + disabled = layered) or thinks a therapy session is the end-all-be-all of a good conversation.
>>720970015The biggest problem with this is that if Uther or any knights get idealistic even in the face of what's in front of them. If they try to welcome infected civilians, or turn on Arthas after thinking they're set up, then Arthas has an enemy from within, and that's worse than Mal'Ganiscaptcha w8 kkk
>>720968670he lost so he evil, don't question it
>>720968670he dared to have wrongthink.jaina and uther knew that is the biggest sin one can commit so they turned their back on him without offering any reasonable alternative.it is their inability to take responsibility is what caused arthas downfall, losing his faith in his friends and alliance.not what he did in stratholme.
kill everyone who stretches 4:3 content to 16:9
>>720968670put yourself in the shoes of the people actually in the game world, they aren't just npc villagersthey don't KNOW theres no cure and arthas didn't even try to find an alternative so it looks like hes completely fucking nuts to be so eager to slaughter themno shit it looks obvious if you look at it 20 years later from the perspective of an omniscient observer
>>720979902If all that happened, the forsaken would be very much on their own and remain a cursed npc faction in a cursed land, fighting a stalemate with crusaders and scourge. Belves get a questline about capturing sylvanas to cleanse and kill her, and carry on her revenge (you unwittingly side with the traitor dread dude for most of it). Humans get a questline about cleansing lordaeron to claim it back (you side with the scarlet crusade until they prove they are unhinged). Both lines converge at the undercity, where the dread dude sylvanas has captured reveals his plans early in an instance and sylvanas can help the players. After that the forsaken are recognized as not just zombies and allowed to cooperate on the coming northrend campaigns as a neutral faction. That battle at the gate where forsaken betrayed everyone carries on instead, and probably arthas owns with his op necromancer powers, until sylvanas sacrifices herself to fend him off while horde and alliance fall back to safety. Post that, forsaken help how they can until arthad is dead, then they are allowed to exist on one of the inhabitable parts of northrend as watchers in case the le new lich king needs help/gets out of hand.
>>720968670Everything he did, he did for himself. He was cognizant of all his actions up until he put on the Lich King's helmet (and probably still afterward).okay but yeah I have to admit the gameplay in the stratholme mission didnt communicate things properly. should've been that maybe half of all civilians would never actually turn into zombies but you had to kill them anyways before mal'ganis came.
>>720979902I think as a basic political decision it's not the worst idea for the Horde.The Forsaken are on a different continent, so not able to threaten the Horde easily. At the same time, they check the Alliance in EK.
From the practical standpoint - he is in the right. It is better to stop the infection before it progresses, since an army of undead would be bad.From the moral standpoint - he is in the wrong. There is no need to explain why.Overall, there isn't one concrete good decision there. He did what was needed to save more people in general, but in process did a terrible thing that went against his supposed standing and principles. He went about it in a retarded sperg way, but, imo, made a correct choice.
>>720979809Rebuilding dalaran so it can get destroyed again
>>720980187>He was cognizant of all his actions up until he put on the Lich King's helmetGoing by WoW lore, he killed the remaining part of his humanity and Ner'zhul in a battle of wills.
>>720980172if i was in Arthas shoe i would let all the kingdom die, after all that what everyone in the universe want to happen, hope they will be happy in super hell or whatever
>>720980404eh. more like: that shit was written so late that not even WotLK reflects that.In Icecrown, there's an entire questline where the Lich King Arthas ripped out his own heart so he didn't have a human soul anymore. So the IDEA might be there but it wasn't just a mental battle.
>>720980453>third-worlder still doesn't understand why Arthas is a villain despite explaining exactly why Arthas is a villainmany such cases!
>>720968670He wasn't wrong but he had to do horrible things. This is what his campaign is about. Being objectively right but also leading to one's own doom.
>>720980590but he wasn't objectively righthe says shit like>as your FUTURE KING, I order you...which is nonsense lmaopower was already going to his headonly HE had the solution if you paid attention he actually shuts Uther and Jaina up. he doesn't even let them give alternate solutions.
>>720968670he wasn't wrong in the slightestUther was pissed he didn't make the decision to save everyone and laugh in the face of Saturday morning cartoon villainy route like that was ever an optionArthas made the decision of a king. Regrettable though it is to have to slaughter the living residents of an entire town in your own kingdom, the alternative is to loose a legion of the undead upon the land
Nevermind the flesh eating zombies and satan hanging out in some alley it's the guy killing the zombies that's the real problem
>>720980661Has Jaina made a single smart decision though? Arthas and Jaina are engaged so he knows she's a dumb cunt.
"I don't care even if someone has LITERALLY seen the future and told me this is a bad idea, I'm going to do it anyway"
>>720980867>Terenas told him to fuck off>Antonidas told him to fuck off
>>720968670By saving them from Hell, developers are disciples of Satan.
>>720981065"I don't believe you" is different from "Even if what you say is true, I'm still doing it"
>>720979902Hasn't Sylvanas been doing bad shit since fucking Frozen Throne?Who the fuck in their right mind would accept her?
TFT really was a low quality cash grab>No new race>Shit missions>Gave us fleshy, yass queen Sylvanas>Turning Arthas into LK was a downgrade imo>Personal item shop that reduced the importance of goblin shop and item drops>Finale cinematic
>>720981218>"Our lands are beset by conflict, but it will be we who decide how best to protect our people, not you. Now, begone!"No, his father was about as stubborn. Though to be fair, Medivh was frustratingly vague with his portents of doom.
>>720980183I could buy this canon. Makes more sense than the amount of evil shit they got away with currently.
>>720974034das rite covid be just like the scourge in WoW!
>>720981337>barge into the middle of a council session>"DOOM IS COMING! THE ANCIENT SHADOW WILL RETURN! FLEE FOR YOUR LIVES TO A MYSTERIOUS HIDDEN CONTINENT I SWEAR IS THERE! THE END IS NIGH!">"wtf? No! Guards, escort this man out">*smiling smugly to himself* Heh, the warning has been given, their fate is now their own, they deserve whatever comes next...Medivh was acting on really bad faith, it's like mom told him to "redeem himself for past sins"
>>720974034
>>720981597>Goes to Thrall>Thrall pieces it together immediately>Medivh drops the vagaries and confirms itWhat was his fucking problem?
>>720979168ok israel
>>720982063really it was just a givenThe human kingdoms had fought a massive war to protect their lands and heritage. They just weren't going to pack up and move.Thrall realized the Orcs had no future in Lordaeron, so taking a risk and sailing to a new continent was less daunting. Also personality traits like openness and spirituality played a role, but a smaller one.
>>720981337>>720981597To be honest, would Terenas have believed him if he went>Demons are coming and your kingdom is going to be overrun by the Undead, who will actually be led by your son who will be corrupted by a sword he picks up in Northrend, but the true purpose of all of this is to mold him into a vessel for the Lich King, who is actually an Orc Shaman turned Necrolyte whose people were corrupted by Sargeras who wants to take out the Void Lords, but who was actually corrupted by the Nathrezim who were serving their lord Denathrius who in turn serves Zovaal, who is the mastermind behind this, who manipulated Denathrius to manipulate Sargeras into creating the Lich King who will corrupt Arthas so that he can raise Sylvanas into undeath so that she can break the Helm of Domination and break the barrier between this world and the afterlife, allowing Zovaal to gather the Infinity Stones
>>720982392>Nigga~
>>720968756He was correct, but as a paladin he's simply not meant to butcher a bunch of innocents like that even if the ends justify the means. So from that perspective Uther was right to call him out. He was wrong as a paladin, but correct as a prince It's also moreso how quickly he jumped to "oh well fuckin kill em all lmao" that's a reasonable cause for concern
What even are paladins in Warcraft? They worship "The Light" but it never states exactly what that is.
>>720968756were they even "people"?they were commoners. what is a commoner compared to the "Future King Who Will Live Forever"?
>>720982917It's some ayyylmaos
>>720968670He was wrong, because he didn't realize the Scourge weren't after his people. It was all just a game to get him into their grips, so the Lich King can have a new Champion. That's the only thing Arthas was wrong about.
>>720983080The thing about Arthas is that "his people" had identical value to him as either living, dead, or undead.You ever notice how in TFT he is always addressed as "King Arthas"?King of... There's only one answer here, and it shows that in his mind, all he actually was guilty of was "succeeding" his father, just like he told him.
>>720982917Ignoring WoW lore for this. It's a magic of the Divine kind, distinct from Arcane magic, and there are beings attached to it going by the spell effect when you cast Resurrection (armored angel-like figure), I think it was just supposed to be some kind of benevolent god in the same way that Sargeras was like the devil.
>>720968670If Arthas hadn't purged the city, they would have become Undead and poured out of the city and Zerg rushed (kekeke) into all of the surrounding towns and villages.Truly, the hero and King we needed but didn't deserve.
>>720969867Uther wouldn't have believed him even if he took the time to explain it.
>>720983267humans in WC1 were just Christians outright. The Light is a mild retcon that rebrands medieval fantasy christianity. High Elf "priests" muddy the waters but you can just say they have a different interpretation.
>>720977174The problem is that there's no way Arthas can convince them through arguments, both Uther and Jaina's rejections are purely emotional.You cannot use facts and logic to win over someone going>Sorry, but I just can't even right now *Runs away*Uther is even worse, even with the benefits of hindsight, even knowing that the plague has no cure, damns the infected, about Mal'Ganis and his plan to teleport the infected to spread the plague, his only regret is not fighting to stop Arthas instead of just leaving. Uther is completely honour bound, and sometimes honour requires sacrifices, sometimes that sacrifice is an entire continent, but Uther will pay that in order to die with a clear conscience.
>>720983336The Scourge already did this a couple times though and failed.Without Arthas leading them, the Scourge couldn't defeat Lordaeron.
>>720983479>humans in WC1 were just Christians outright.A building using catholic chants does not mean they were literal christians. You'd be surprised how much churchly latin music makes it into games because it sounds cool.
>>720983221That was after Frostmourne stole his soul and he became Undead, which functionally replaced his personality with an evil twin of himself. Cope & Seethe, Arthas was ready to heroically sacrifice himself to save his people.
>>720983537The Scourge started introducing the plague in the tiny villages and small towns in the North.Strat was the biggest city thus far to be infected. The snowball effect is real.
>>720968670Arthas disbanded the Silver Hand as a Paladin order just because they didn't immediately want to genocide a city purely on his word. It's a horrific task even when you know what has to be done, and a real leader would understand that. Upon doing so, humanity lost one of their most effective weapons against the Undead, as while many would still continue to fight, they could only win battles, not the war.Not only that, but Arthas' handling of the situation spurred other fallen Paladins to amass bands of raiders to do the same, whether the plague was present or not, which corrupted their souls and created the Deathlords as yet another threat against humanity.
>>720983592>Christian chants>Christian CROSS>Manual constantly refers to "God" when speaking of clerics etc>"Orcs are summoning DEMONS FROM HELL!"
>>720983730>That was after Frostmourne stole his souluhh but it didn't though?you trust a dreadlord? they dont know shit.
>>720983860No mention of Jesus, at all, ever, at any point. God isn't even God's actual name, it's a description.
>>720983860Humans canonically lost in WC1, proving the christian god is useless, it wasn't until humans left their false god in WC2 that humans won
>>720983965>No mention of Jesus, at all, ever, at any point. God isn't even God's actual name, it's a description.It's actually his name in Germanic Christianity. Germans still call their god "God" just like they did when they were Pagans, where Godan was another name of Wotan. That is why the prayers of Germanic-speaking people are not heard, because they all go to Odin instead of God.
>>720984094And the name of God in Greek comes from Zeus.
>>720984094Be that as it may, they sure as shit aren't christians in Warcraft 3>retconDoesn't matter, Warcraft 3 is what's being discussed.
>>720984868So that is why God abandoned them and they lost all of Anatolia to the Turks ... their prayers never reached him.>>720985207Yes, you are right. NTA though
>>720979902This image is often posted as an example of "Horde bad!" but like 80% of Horde war crimes are done by the Forsaken, 15% by Orcs and the other 5% for the other races.
>>720985403name one tauren war crimename one troll war crime
>>720985403#RememberTheTaurajo10000 Alliance are not even worth 1 Tauren hoof clipping.
>>720985529Denial of cow tits to all.Who cares about Trolls?
>>720968756Killing people is not bad.Humans have reached an agreement where they don't hurt each other because that's beneficial to both parties, but there's nothing bad or wrong about hurting or killing people.
Why didn't they close off the town and let them turn then nuke it from orbit?
>>720981337>>720981597Medivh was a complete retard. His strategy to get the Alliance across the sea was pretty much bound to fail - even if they had enough boats to carry the entire population of the Eastern Kingdoms.Thrall and Jaina went not because they're wiser than the others, but because Thrall and his Orcs were on the run, being hunted down by the Alliance, and a new continent gave him the chance to establish a home for his people. He says this several times in the Orc campaign. Jaina, she sensed that he was 'very powerful' but I don't know why she derived 'trustworthy' from that. The big problem with Medivh is that he had the whole thing backwards. He should've been trying to convince the Night Elves to come to this Eastern side of the Ocean.If everybody had allied against the Scourge and Legion in Lordaeron, then they could have prevented the Scourge from overrunning Lordaeron, Alterac, Dalaran and Quel'thalas and adding the bodies to their numbers, they could have prevented the resurrection of Kel'Thuzad, and most importantly they could have prevented the Scourge from getting their hands on Medivh's spellbook, and therefore summoning the demons in the first place. And on the other side, instead of just a rag-tag group of Alliance refugees, you could've had the seven Human kingdoms, the Dwarves and the High Elves fighting with the Night Elves against the Scourge. Sure, you wouldn't have the Tauren, but that's a fair exchange.And best of all, since the Night Elves already know about the Burning Legion, it would have been easy to explain the threat and have it be credible! And before you say Tyrande would have told him to go fuck himself, at least she already knows about the Burning Legion and would have been more likely to comply than King Terenas agreeing and/or being able to carry the entire population of the Eastern Kingdoms across the sea to Kalimdor.
>>720985669Utherberg had a coin clipping operation in that town and he did not want to take a monetary loss
>>720985529Well I did say "other races", which includes Goblins, Blood Elves, etc.
>>720985756>I don't know why she derived 'trustworthy' from thatShe drew the connection between his warnings and the cult of the damned. Really just basic detective work, if even that.
>>720985756i think they realized how fucking stupid this was so they lazily added he was under control of sargeras
>>720985908It's a big leap from a random Necromancer raising some ghouls in the countryside to an ancient God invading the planet with a massive demon army to annihilate all life.
>>720985529Poisoning someone in Mak'goraI'm playing WoW Classic+ right now and literally every Kalimdor zone has Grimtotem shitting it up. Why is Magatha allowed in Thunder Bluff and how come nobody said "Ey, that bitch be crazy yo." to Garrosh when she slipped into his DMs?
>>720968756When you murder your own side's civilians it's not a war crime, just ordinary mass murder.
>>720986051She didn't know about the demons until he told Jaina and Thrall about it together. All she knew was that there was some shit going down and a guy who's seen the future thinks she should take a military expedition to Kalimdor to deal with it.Really, yes, if the Nelves had come over to the Eastern Kingdoms, they could have prevented the Scourge from ever summoning Archimonde, but that still leaves them with Archimonde trying again later. I think Medivh just wanted an opportunity to take him out.
>>720972472in almost all security and liability protocols across the planet, the emphasis is virtually always to, in a case where things could be a worst scenario, to act in a way as if they arethis also almost always means doing shit like minimizing risk to first responders, etc>arthas should have sent soldiers in to the town and risk them getting injured, infected or dying to only potentially save a portion of the city (despite it not even being clear if you can tell whose infected in early stages)this makes zero sense in the context of the scourge threatening his entire kingdom where he and his soldiers were the only and last defense, and was almost definitely what the scourge wanted them to dothe only clear cut absolute solution that preserves the best possible chance to fight off the scourge is to immediately burn stratholme to the ground
The Lordaeron people heading south to avoid the Scourge seems more feasible than going to Kalimdor.
>>720986254>the only clear cut absolute solution that preserves the best possible chance to fight off the scourge is to immediately burn stratholme to the groundWorth pointing out that he's already seen how disastrous it can get from what happened in Hearthglen. The mission starts with you right in the middle of a fucking melee with civvies turning zombie left and right, and Hearthglen was small enough that his troops could deal with it. Stratholme is a great big city, they could have lost half the continent if they hadn't acted, and that's before factoring in Mal'ganis literally teleporting the zombies out.
>>720968670If you had to choose between turning into a rotting husk that would go on to uncontrollably murder potential loved ones and having your head caved in by a comically large mallet, which would you pick?
>>720986713Can't he use a sword instead?
>>720986713>having your head caved in by a comically large malletDoesn't it take like 3 hits for him to kill a commoner?
>>720986803Paladins are contractually obligated to use comically large mallets. The only exception is Ashbringer but that wasn't an option.
>>720970735>you no longer need to bear the weight of your crown"Rewatch it on YouTube, it was Frostmourne who spoke that line. His father's speech is intentionally blocked out but you can make out he is congratulating Arthas.
>>720986859I didn't say anything about it being a quick and painless head caving.
>>720987106Jesus christ...
>>720981336Yeah but it gave us thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyeEOwbyIZQ
>>720985756Medivh is le mysterious plot dropping character similar to Zeratul in SC. They both suck. Blizz loves this type of character because it allows them to be lazy with their writing.
>>720970015>>720970419>make a realistic story instead of fantasy with drama>no one talks about it everGood job anon you are such a competent writer>>720980867>>720981218You do realize that contextually there not everyone believed in prophetic visions right? How is this board this retarded
>>720974034I did my duty to my king.
>>720986254>>720986536Should also be noted that Stratholme was canonically the 2nd most populated city in Lordaeron after the capital. That's a lot of potential Undead to try to safely contain.
>>720985756My crow boy did nothing wrong, the man was poisoned since birth. Tf you want from him
>>720968756>Some may question my right to destroy a world of 10 billion souls. But those who truly understand realise that I have no right to let them live.
ARTHAS
>>720985756Wrong. Utter wrong. Splash toilet water in your face. Medivh in the context of the story is a prophet and can see the future, which introduces a layer of metaphysics: there are multiple possible futures and none of them are certain. He has to go with the most probable that can be turned to favour his own side. A complicating factor is Ner'zhul, who was a powerful shaman in life but now those powers are multiplied by being the Lich King: he's got the trump card when it comes to seeing the future and very carefully moves his pieces as too avoid Medivh seeing his role in events. That's why he can't do anything about what Ner'zhul has already decided should happen: he doesn't even know how important Arthas is or he would have just killed him, preventing Frostmourne ever leaving Northrend.
I just wanted a happy ending where Arthas and Jaina defeated the Undead Scourge and got married in the end. Was that too much to ask for? What a bunch of retarded hack writers. I'm unironically seething. Even 23 years later.
>>720988702Well we've got AI now for voice acting purposes, we could probably make an alt history version. Don't know how that would play out with Illidan being pointed towards the skull of Guldan. Hell, the legion would have to be summoned some other way.
>>720988702this>romance plot occurslmao. romances are so cheesy>a romance is denied, delayed, or destroyed[entire continent is destroyed paving the way for a demon invasion to go fuck the other continents even the uninhabited ones]it sucks because Jaina has been waiting hardcore for Arthas to come rescue her from loneliness and even further impossible decisions but noooooooooo
>>720988623>Destroy his own spellbook>Burning Legion can't invade AzerothExplain why this wouldn't work.Also what was the point of going to King Terenas and telling him to go to Kalimdor? Even if he wanted to, they wouldn't have enough ships to carry the entire population of the seven Human kingdoms, the High Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes.
>>720988623God I hate metaphysics and multiverse timetravel slop. None of it is interesting. Cosmic stories are shit, it's just the author wanking about their super cool unique setting. Keep it grounded.
>>720986081>Why is Magatha allowed in Thunder BluffThis actually got brought up in Legion and they basically told the guy complaining about her to shut up and deal with it.
>>720988915It has crossed my mind several times to actually do this now that AI is able to recreate the voices. Like many anons said in the thread so far, all the actions Arthas did could be retconned and make his not act like a total fucking retard.Here, just a 5 minute throwaway brainstrom and it's already better then the shit we got:>Arthas tells Uther and Jaina to help him save the city, he won't kill anyone and let them see that the city is doomed for themselves>Uther and Jaina realize the severity of the situation>They save the villagers they could save and purge the undead>They all go to Northrend>Muradin is still alive since Arthas never takes Frostmourne, they get help from the dwarves>They are surrounded in the final mission>"Pure hearts and the Holy Light are more than a match against you vile creatures!">Arthas uses his level 6 spell and all the victims of Scourge rise from the dead to overpower the undead>*Angelic choir in the background*>They kill Mal'faggot>Arthas proposes to Jaina on the boat going back home, sailing into the sunsetI don't care what anybody says, it would be KINO
>>720990325
>>720988978>lmao. romances are so cheesyIt's sad that there are a lot of faggots that would unironically say this, yet the "save the princess" trope has been around for decades in video games and even defined several generations of consoles.In short, don't fix something that isn't broken.
>>720990325>>720990430
>>720990430It's such a pity that RTS games died. Hate how every developer fixates on esport multiplayer cancer, yet everyone played the game for the campaign. Who doesn't want to go on a long adventure, building cities and armies and enjoy a good story? >Ex Blizzard devs form a new studio>Make Stormgate>"Alright, all you have to do is learn from the mistakes in WC3 and-">They focus on multiplayer>Mixed reviews on SteamThis just confirms that Blizzard devs are retarded and that the only good part of the company was Blizzard North before they got canned.
>>720990430>>720990528ALL THEY HAD TO DO IS NOT MAKE WOW, I'M SO FUCKING MAD
>>720990325I'd go with something along these lines>Arthas has his moment before Stratholme>Uther and Jaina attempt to stop him instead of fucking off>Three way between Arthas, Mal'ganis and Uther/Jaina in Stratholme to the tune of zombies>If you pick Uther/Jaina, you have to attempt to sort through contaminated commoners and get to them before Arthas and Mal'ganis do>Arthas plays like normal, Mal'ganis not selectable>Because of all the interference, the Stratholme containment fails and Lordaeron gets mega fucked>Uther and Jaina have to team back up with Arthas to deal with it, he was right all along, he's still a monster for trying to purge, but they can't stop to argue about it now>Arthas didn't fall and wasn't lured to Northrend, so plan B time, Mal'ganis has to resurrect Kel'thuzad himself>Cult of the Damned manages to take out Terenas themselves since the culling failed and they weren't weakened>Battling street to street in Lordaeron against the newly crowned Arthas Menethil, have to close in on the urn before the Silver Hand can properly secure it and get it out of the city>Assault on the Sunwell occurs as normal, but now Mal'ganis has to contend with Alliance forces on his rear as well as the High Elves>Sylvanas doesn't get murked, but Silvermoon still destroyed>Summoning proceeds as normal, Mal'ganis starts having doubts about his involvement with the Legion>Dalaran destroyed, Arthas, Uther, Jaina and Sylvanas now believe Lordaeron is a lost cause, they have to retreat to KalimdorAnd so on
>>720991402Right but who fights Illidan and why in Northrend at the end of the expansion? You need a cool fight FMV to end the game, this is non negotiable.
>>720968670>>720968756It's a catch 22. If you kill them before they turn it's a slaughter. If you wait some of your soldiers will die. The only solution is to solo everything himself but he's not a real Paladin so he can't.
>>720991402That works as well. The reason why I went with Northrend is that I personally really liked the setting. The bleak frozen wasteland was a perfect battleground to feature the undead. Not only do you have to battle the ancient dangers lurking in Northrend, your army struggling with low morale etc., but also the marching undead that are unfazed by the cold.Also I always thought that the Revenants were cool as shit, pic related. "Although undead, Revenants have no affiliation with the Scourge as they have some sort of innate immunity to Ner’zhul’s psychic control over undead. They remain neutral in the conflict between the Horde and Alliance.""No... trying to protect you... from it."
>>720992089I didn't think that far ahead. Timmy maybe?
>>720992089>Right but who fights IllidanNot that anon, but why not just introduce a new character to the story? The story is already being changed drastically from the canon lore, so might as well add some new stuff as well.
>>720992205Didn't he turn into a ghoul when you destroy one of the hanging cages in game?
>>720992372Yeah, Timmy's a ghoul that shows up at a couple points. Have him pick up Frostmourne and mog Illidan with it
>>720968670Contrived drama. You can either purge it and prevent the spread, or not purge it, watch non-infected people get eaten alive and allow the plague to spread. No matter what you do, the people will die -- you get to choose whether die a swift death or suffer an excruiating painful death and perhaps an even worse afterlife.
>>720992179>that artWhat happenend to the talent int he video game industry? The conecpt art used to look cool as shit. Now look at the garbage we have today. It's so cookie cutter sanitized it makes me want to vomit.>hurr durr undead skeletons have to have that Disney bright green because EVILThe other day I checked out Heroes of Might and Magic: Olden Era, and just as you might guess, all the necropolis units and buildings are painted in cancer green
>>720992465Would make more sense than current WC lore
>>720992089>IllidanNo power and no allies. He only knew of the demonic skull cause Arthas told him
>>720980867>some random bum shows up and tells you that he knows the future>offers no proof>offers nothing but vague cryptic nonsense>buggers off>Arthas, we gotta do as he saysLel
>>720992819Kel'thuzad tells him instead
>>720992089I'm sorry anon, but the only good thing about the Night Elf campaign was jerking off to the female archers. The whole cast was insuferable, especially giga faggot Illidan.
>>720974034>telemarketed, rebranded coldvs.>literal zombificationI hope you're up-to-date with your mystery goo injections.
>>720993217What were they thinking?
>>720993387>One Shot, One Kill
>>720993387malfurion was a total bro
>>720968670okay
>>720968670Arthas wanting to purge was the same as the trolley dilemma. His purge was going to save more lives than it destroyed in the end. Anyone who disagrees with Arthas just wants to leave the trolley lever alone and let nature take its course so that they don't have to choose, which is morally wrong. They have more blood on their hands in the end than Arthas would have.
>>720993515>"I said a bow-string, not a G… Never mind."
>I'll attract the enemy with my human call: 'I'm so wasted! I'm so wasted!'
>>720993874They would never do this today, actually, didn't they remove these sorts of lines for Reforged?
>>720993536>Anon, we have to go on a mission to save the world>What is it?>Wake up 10 sleeping pooftahsThey could have at least tried
>>720993991Not only that, they added female versions of Deathknights. It was the same reasons why they added a dragon in a wheelchair in WoW. The cherry on top? They managed to make the low poly models looks like total shit, even for low poly stanards. Blizzard is unredimable at this point. And speaking of redeeming, I'm sure some curry nigger was working on the models.
>Not having Arthas accidentally crash in Kalimdor with his Northrend expedition
>>720993720And then Arthas rode back in on his own trolly to finish the job later.
>>720968670he wasnt, i would have done the same if the city was full of moslems
>>720968756Hes literally the crown prince. He can do whatever the fuck he wants. He could have ordered the town burned just because some kid blew a raspberry at him.
Has anyone played the campaign in reforged? How bad did they fuck things up?
>>720993720>which is morally wrongThe right not to get involved is not morally wrong, especially if you lack the power or information to make an informed decision.
>>720994360>crash in KalimdorWith no surviors?
>>720989326It's as grounded as it can be when at least two characters are far-seeing clairvoyants. The trick is to not make it the main story. >>720989102Do you think the Kirin Tor wouldn't have already tried that just because of the contents or realised it was the Scourge's true objective when they attacked Dalaran? Medivh doesn't appear to have any insight into Ner'zhul or his agents, which is a sign that his vision isn't a match for the Lich King. There's a number of things Medivh could have done if he had known, and all are countered by Ner'zhul knowing first and making himself indispensable to which side suits him. Call it the Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey principle: whoever got to act first wins even if both sides can fight using the same advantage. The fact that Medivh makes multiple failed attempts and then only succeeds when it benefits Ner'zhul shows who the Real Big Deal is, without him even making an appearance. >Blizz had their MCU Thanos rip-off years before it existed, and they did him dirty multiple times with ret-cons, and replaced him with J'l0r The Zovaal
>>720994585Every single person with AIDS should have been incinerated.
>>720968670I don't even know, you wipe out human kingdoms in tge first 2 warcraft games for less justifications.
>>720994302
>>720994662This is correct, but I have neither the ability to apprehend them, nor an oven large enough at my disposal. Which is why I will not get involved.
>>720994515It's more or less the same, the occasional map looks cooler, the cinematics they promised to change didn't change much and most of them aren't changed at all, apart from that, just the regular issues with unit readability.Re-Reforged is better, but it changes up the missions a lot and adds in a lot of WoW lore, even tries implementing raid style boss fights which can be cancerous. Stick with the original game.
>>720968756It's the trolley problem.Do you burn down a town or sit on your ass and wait for the problem to get worse so you're forced to burn down the entire kingdom instead?
>>720994654>The trick is to not make it the main storySame mistake they made with Starcraft II and the prophecy plot there.
>>720993253Kel'thuzad is already dead by Arthas' hand prior to Stratholme; it's the necromancer himself who claims 'his master' is in Strat.>The answer to every question everyone is asking in this thread is: Ner'zhul is the most powerful future-seeing psychic in Warcraft 3 and not once does his plan fail because he knows what everyone is going to do, unlike Medivh who has glimpses.
If he was right he wouldn't have become a fucking Lich King.
>>720994731Grim
>>720994938See >>720991402 in this scenario Mal'ganis resurrects Kel'thuzad as Ner'zhul's plan B.
>>720992726Its literally just a case of management and artists. Management wants X, Artists usually try and supply X to live a life. Its not rocket science by any means man, people can still make beautiful stuff with soul, its just a lot of people want to get fucking money to live or be able to do something with their lives rather than merely passion paint.
I had always thought the problem was less the conclusion he reached and more how quickly he came to it, and how he didn't even seem all that bothered about having to do it either.
>>720994786I don't know why I'm even surprised at this point. The fact that you have a to boot up a two decade year old game than what the company is making now is just depressing.
>>720995086I forgot to mention that the performance of Reforged is absolute DOGSHIT just on the fucking menu.
>>720995045I'm convinced that it's not just that. Ex Blizzard devs left the company and formed multiple teams that all flopped. I think that people forgot how to make good games.
>>720968670In a setting where a race of benevolent magic sentient space crystals can fix anything without issue more options beyond slaughter should have been pursued.
>>720995056He was at Hearthglen, Jaina and Uther weren't, he's unironically had the time to think about and has more experience with what the plagued grain means in praxis.
>>720995285>performance Again, I don't know why I'm even surprised at this point. The lost art of "let's make our game playable".
>>720995412That's fair. I suppose the whole thing is a tragic miscommunication more than anything, then.
>>720995408>a race of benevolent magic sentient space crystals can fix anything without issueDid not exist at that point
>>720980037so what was uther and jaina supposed to do? Help Arthas? Force Arthas to stop?
>>720985756Medivh doesn't speak Darnassian so he wouldn't be able to talk to the nelves anyway
>>720968670RTS, at least how WC3 is structured, is so bad for telling a story. You maybe get a few lines of dialogue at the very beginning or a mission that sets up the scenario, but you don't get enough to really time really expand on anything. That's why Arthas comes as a spastic and it seems poorly written.
>>720995354No dude, that's also management. A lot of talent needs good management and good leadership to exist, and if you have dogshit management for aesthetics, dogshit management for gameplay and dogshit management for efficiency, you're gonna get dogshit.Mind you, management doesn't mean a middle management race explicitly, only implicitly. You can have have two artists and one is the main honcho and he's effectively the quality manager and leader without the title, same way you can have coders who harp on one another or a writer cabal who edits and keeps eachother sane. Bad bonds between people, too much separation, a lack of focus and more leads to dogshit management on a macro medium and mini scale, and inevitably creates inefficiency, sloth and lower quality with chaos and self interest.Management is everywhere dude. Its just more obviously dogshit when its on pyramidical structures of power.
Stratholme was an unwinnable situation. Both decisions Arthas could have made were wrong and he had no other options, his fate was sealed either way.WoW showing the purge had little to no effect takes away from that a bit but it still adds to the tragedy of Arthas. "Tragedy" is the main descriptor here, too bad nu-Blizzard didn't see him as a tragic character and needed to turbo-kill him for being so evil.
>>720995462Yeah, as others in the thread have said, he's been running ragged for weeks after the cult on barely any sleep and has just come out of a several days long siege against a full on undead army, complete with abominations, necromancers and meat wagons. We can assume he did the optional objective of stopping the meat wagon convoy as well, so he knows there are a bunch of convoys just like that roaming the fucking countryside toppling village after village.Stratholme going tits up would have been catastrophic, and he communicated it poorly. Ironically enough, his actions destroyed the cult of the damned for a time and bought Lordaeron more time considering that Arthas has to regroup the cult in the first mission of the Scourge campaign.
>>720995541Tyrande, Malfurion, Jaina and Thrall talk to each other just fine in the Night Elf campaign. Arthas talks to Illidan too.
>>720971908>the writers said later that actually he was wrongThey didn't."Designer Dave" was a map/level designer. He had nothing to do with the story itself and is a seething faggot.
>>720995025Ner'zhul does not need a plan B; he sees every eventual outcome and can choose the one he wants. Mal'ganis is a dreadlord: they are utterly loyal to their in-group and it requires yet another shitty ret-con to do this. Even Varimathras show of loyalty was only because he knows a demon can only be permanently killed in the Twisting Nether. Because Ner'zhul knows dreadlords can not be trusted, he needs his own independent agents who can keep secrets and with Frostmourne he can lend them direct help. Ner'zhul has foreseen events and knows the Frozen Throne won't survive; he started making the helm, armour and sword the moment he landed in Icecrown. Before the awful ret-cons, he transmuted the demonic ice to do it, and it's why they have Orcish runes on them. There is zero possible future time-lines where a dreadlord sides with him on that: he chose Arthas before he was even born. Blizz could have had a really interesting character, with Ner'zhul and Arthas as a merged being (hinted at in WoTLK), but instead decided the smartest Orc that ever Orc'd lost a mind-war to a mentally-ill teenager that did whatever he was told.
>>720996006>Ner'zhul does not need a plan BWe don't care, we were discussing a possible alternative sequence of events.
>>720970623>>720970225We don't assume retards, play the fcking game, the previous mission is Arthas chasing down the infected wheat charriots to stop them from distributing the plague. The entire region of Eastweald was doomed way before Arthas came, he just came at a very late time, only now caughting up to the Burnings Crusade plans, he felt that if he killed one of the demon princes he will somehow save the broader region. In the future those lands were named Eastern Plaguelands.Don't even get me started on the scholomance being there since the Second War inhabited by Acolytes and lich kings minions such as Kel'Thuzad himself. All in all Arthas was in the wrong by virtue. Either hunting down the demon and purging stratholme or just letting it fester, the results would be the same, Arthas was already on the eye of the Lich King's plans to serve as a vessel and he would've struck Loaderon next and have the exact same result.
>>720996192>caughting
>>720983965>No mention of Jesus, at all, ever, at any point.A cross on a church IS a reference to Jesus. Its a crucifix. The crucifix only has religious significance because Jesus died on one.
>>720996468That's not a crucifix, the crossbeam is too low
>>720968670lol, it doesn't matter because he turned evil and killed/destroyed the very people the sacrifice of life was meant to save.
>>720996551Tell that to the various Christian organisations around the world, retard.
>>720996647I guess anytime anybody uses the letter X or a plus sign, it's because they're referencing christianity then
>>720968670who cares. it was necessary for this scene.
>>720996918Absolute Sovl
>>720996865When its on a fucking church yeah!
>>720997021On another fucking planet? It's not christianity dude, give it up.
>>720996865take the l, retard
>>720968670unironically arthas was 4chan and uther reddit in that cinematic
>>720978924>do nothing>evil creature can send you to turbo hellPathetic lore.
>>720997117Jaina was twitterThrall was bkueskyTyrannosaurus was Instagram kael is roblox
>>720996865Yes anon, every x means you have to put a church under it and when you highlight it you hear DEO GRATIASmodhax, if you would be so kind
>>720997065Explain the religious significance of the cross otherwise.
>>720997160Yeah, I hate circumcision too.
>>720997287illidan the incel was kiwifarms
>>720997317Funny otherworld religion with similar iconography, claiming it's christianity has always been fucking stupid, it's not remotely earth, how the fuck does it even make sense?
>>720997498Christ transcends all boundaries, even video games.
>>720997763I will take with a grain of salt anything with the fucking iFunny logo stamped onto it
>>720997498The creators of that piece of hacky schlock come from a real place called earth in our universe.
>>720975630this dude is still based no matter how you try to besmirch him solely based on how much he shat on blizzard for their retardation
>>720968670He wasn't wrong.But he could have explained his reasoning to his trusted allies, preferably in a calm collected manner that doesn't make him seem psychotic.>There was no timeThere was ample time.It would've taken all of five minutes to lay out.They could have walked and talked.
>>720999454There wa a literal time limit tho, and Janer and Uther yeeted before they could talk some since into Arthur post culling, but Mallganis had plenty of time to make arthus seethe.
>>720983390In that case, the fault for everything that followed would lie squarely on Uther.He was told precisely what would happen by a person close to him, he ignored the warning, and then that very thing happened.
>>720999454Arthas was laying out the plague of undeath to Uther when they see zombies begin to turn and attack civilians. Literally midsentence.
>>720995749>both decisions Arthas could have made were wrong>fail to Cull Stratholme>the second largest population center in the kingdom is converted into zombies. A tidal wave of walking corpses washes over the kingdom and destroys Lordaeron that evening.>game over>Cull Stratholme>Arthas loses his friends and is convinced that only he can make the hard choices when the other choice will destroy the kingdom.>not game over, but stepping on to the bad path due to the loss of Arthas's confidantsOne of these is clearly the right option. Arthas wasn't damned by culling Stratholme, he was damned by trading his soul to Frostmourne. He could have culled Stratholme and kept his friends if said friends didn't abandon him. Really, the only wrong choice made here was by Uther and Jaina.
>>720968670How long before the culling was the grain distributed? If it was a day prior to it, then it's too late. Everyone would have eaten from it and would be infected.
>>721000116>when they see zombies begin to turn and attack civiliansThat doesn't actually happen in the cutscene
>>721001346You're right. I misremembered, Arthas cuts off his report and it shows green tinged peasants running into their houses. I could have sworn one of them turned and began to attack, prompting Arthas's "oh no, everyone here is infected"
>>720968756fuck off batman
>>721001786>it's the right choice, that means it's a good thing to do and I should feel morally justified! :DIt's an incredibly shitty choice, you still have to do it and you should treat the action with the proper weight it deserves.
>>720968756Scourge hands typed this
>>721000756>he was damned by trading his soul to FrostmourneStratholme directly lead to that though, that's the point.He either lets the Scourge obliterate Lordaeron or purges Stratholme and surrenders the last of his humanity.>But he could have just talked to UtherThere is no conceivable way Uther would have joined in slaughtering innocent civilians no matter how convincing Arthas was. He was totally alone in that moment, either decision and all the consequences would be his alone. The second the grain shipment arrived Arthas was doomed.
>>720999106did he fuck you in the ass or something? I didnt say anything about how based or cringe he was, but his opinion on purging startholme is retarded and stupid. It's also kind of obnixous how he tries to pull>hurr durr I worked at the game I know betterwhen he was just a level designer, he had nothing to do with the story. piratesoftware tier behaviour
>>721002769Stratholme does not directly lead to Frostmourne. It sets him on the path towards Northrend, but it did not seal the deal. It's impossible to say how Arthas would have reacted after purging Stratholme if he wasn't (correctly) convinced by the event that anyone else would have let the kingdom die right then and there.>Uther is too high on his 2righteous4u fumes to ever have done the right thing.True, a deep, deep flaw in Uther that the story (WoW, not WC3) sucks him off over.
>>720974034Did you just compare a cold virus to zombification?
>>720996072Ner'zhul knows as much as the writers, so it doesn't matter. Dreadlords are always going to Dreadlord, so it matters even less. Unless you ret-con, which Blizz did, and made everything worse.
>>720974131That sounds like some Shadowlands bullshit. Or was it around back then, and I've just forgotten?
>>721004881>Quit having fun!
>>721001786>third day in a row someone mistakes Batman's one rule for morality
>>721004978It wasn't around for Warcraft 3, it comes from the short story after FotLK when Sylvanas jumps off Icecrown onto Saronite spikes and goes to super hell for a bit before being pulled out by a Valkyrie.
>>720980172>and arthas didn't even try to find an alternativeLike fucking what? The plague was acting quickly. There was a 0% chance they found a solution before those people turned and became a threat to his forces. It's a no-win situation. All you can do is minimize losses, and keeping his military in tact was the best choice, even if it's a cold one. That's leadership
>>721005146Sounds just like the gay nuWoW shit. Fuck the stories
>>721005146wasn't there a quest chain in icecrown about curing some paladin of the blight to save his souldid they just retcon that
>>721004998Ok, alt time-line where Medivh is the one with better prophecy powers: >He knows about the Lich King now>LK doesn't know Medivh the Last Gardener is back>Medivh doesn't bother talking to mortals>He talks to Dreadlords instead>Dreadlords do not trust him, but now he has them acting so Ner'zhul never perceives him>Says he can do the summoning, Kel'Thuzad isn't loyal anyway>Deliberately botches it and drops Archimonde in the Maw
>>721006708The character still died, but it was based on someone at Blizzard's brother who died of cancer so it'd be a bit tasteless if after everything it didn't work.
>>721006708He dies still but has the personal attention of the space angels so they step in and grab his soul to take it away to space heaven rather than letting it be dragged down to super hell.
>>721006708Yes. Ret-cons ruined the character development of WC3 (which was much more involved than the previous games), and then more ret-cons ruined those ret-cons.
>>721007031What the fuck is the Maw?
>>720968670He was 100% in the right about Strath being beyond saving and needing to be purged. He was 100% in the wrong for not explaining or elaborating on anything and then crashing out when there was pushback.
lets make this easy for people to understand>you cant preemptively kill niggers you have to wait until they kill, rape and murdersee how retarded that sounds?Arthas was right and Uther was spiritually a nigger and Jaina was a nigger lover
>>721007784retarded modern WoW garbage that should be ignored
>>721008471How did they need any explanation? Were they both not already aware the city was infected with the plague? If they need further explanation, they're fucking retards who won't get it no matter what you say
>>721008894Uther is a bit in the dark, having only seen zombies at Hearthglen. Jaina has absolutely no excuse, having traveled with Arthas and fully aware of the plague, the zombies, and the fact that Dalaran doesn't know dick that can help.
>>720993720I imagine if you pull a lever in front of somebody without explanation and it kills a person in front of them, they would think you a villain. But it would take too long to explain that if you don't pull it, much more people would die.In this case it only makes sense to explain your actions afterwards. And since there is no authority to oppose Arthas as a prince, Uther and Jaine running away is a temporary setback at worst. The only thing he had to do is not charge after a dark relic sword as suggested by a literal demon (!), and instead return back to the capital, explain the situation to his father the king, and mobilize the county against the threat.
>>720979902Essentially, yeah, they should've just went for scourge faction if they wanted playable undead so badly and just filled the horde slot with ogres or nagas.
>>720985756I think his plan was to defeat the Legion for good. ie bait them into attacking and then losing their army and leaders is a massive blow. Stopping the invasion does nothing if all the Legion has to do is wait for another opportunity while also still controlling the Lich King and Northrend. Medivh is also playing 4d chess with agents like the Lich King who sees and manipulates the future along with KilJaeden. Its higely likely the Lich King went through with the plan because he knew it would also defeat the Legion and allow him to be free from his prison. This way chiefly the Legion loses their army, Archimonde is dead, Tichondrius is dead, and Manaroth is dead, The Orks are free from their curse and Night Elves have to face the World without their World Tree immortality anymore. Essentially the entire plan actually forces the world to grow and face new challenges, if you stop the Legion invasion before it happens theres actually no resolution and likely lead to more conflict afterwards. You will also run the issue of Night Elves seeking to dominate the World and possibly even conflict between them and the High Elves. I think a major plot hole if anything is that Medievh should have been talking to the High Elves as they likely would have listened.
>>720997498My take on the cross on the church is so that the player can look at that sprite during gameplay and immediately think "oh, that's a church".
>>721009036Certified woman moment
>>720980037>>To draw the blood of so many innocents should cause him to be forsaken by the light and lose his paladinhood,Does Warcraft even have the concept of fallen paladins? I don't remember if there is one.
>>720968670He did the right thing, the others were too stupid to understand.
>>720990325You know, theres a guy that made the version of the human campaign where you play as Grand Marshal Garithose (based) and he used AI voice cloning to make the lines, it is pretty enjoyable.
>>721015942Thrall is a fallen Shaman but I headcanon it as him being a self hating cuck. There's billions of evil Shamans that cast no problem.
>>720974034What a difference perspective makes eh?Everyone self inserts as the murder paladin, but nobody self inserts as the grubby peasant getting purged.
>>720979168>word gamesLet me guess, you self insert as the general deciding to blow up the civilians and not as one of the civilians? Guess which one you are more likely ro be in real life.
>>7209934012 million deaths is more than the 20 deaths each year from the cold and flu you mong.
>>721018625The grubby Stratholme peasant is already dead. He's either going to take a hammer to the head for a quick death, be ripped to pieces by the reanimated corpses of his friends and family, or fall into plague sickness and die before returning to kill his friends and family who aren't dead yet.Sucks but the euthanasia by noble prince is the way to go.
>>720968756Tausisters... our response??
>>720988623I like the mindgame of Medivh and Ner'zhul, but it's probable that one has at least an intuition about the other. I say this because Medivh DOES have an idea of Arthas' fate.>"The harder you strive to save your people, the faster you will deliver them into your enemies' hands."This, as most things should be from a prophet, is true
>>720968756t. Mal'ganis
The threat he was warning everyone about was so severe that despite his drastic approach the kingdom still fell thus proving that he was factually in the right.
>>720968670He wasn't wrong. He had simply already lost.
>>721025114With allies like Uther and Jaina, who needs enemies?
arthas slaughtered the city because he was in the epstein files
>>720968756>>720968670at this point in my life I became radicalizedi was unable to play the rest of the game and permanently developed an strong distaste for humanity in general after the writer's moral tantrum and extreme denigration of arthas' superior moral character for doing the only sane ultimately kind thing in an impossible scenario. when they started dragging his character through the muck and effectively overwriting arthas with some kind of campy comic book villain, it became ridiculous.I'll say this shit, and people will call me a sociopath, but I'm genuinely and categorically not, and they know that. They can't even explain why they think I'm wrong. Impossible scenarios require impossible actions. I don't want to read a story about a character daintily putting their uncallused hands in their silk long johns mumbling about women and children when they're fighting literal flesh-eating demons trying to convert women and children into flesh-eating shuffling monsters. What the fuck. What the actual fuck.
>>720968670He didn't do anything wrong until he went to Northrend. Then it was one fuck-up after another and he felt completely out of character.
>>721027382this
>>720968756>That kind of thing should be considered abhorrent and weigh on youIt did. That was the whole point. That was why the city was infected to begin with: To destroy Arthas' willpower, to break him down so that he would be weak and desperate once lured to Northrend.
>>720968756Having ones soul (tangibly, provably) be condemned to the Scourge is canonically more abhorrent than dying. It's an actual mercy, even if the victims don't realize it. Moreso than this, every single citizen left alive would first be killed more brutally by the Scourge (those who hadn't yet eaten the grain), and then collectively the entire city would be used as a weapon upon the military and the countryside.There was no other choice. It was abhorrent, but the alternative was more abhorrent, and the weight of this decision accompanied by the total abandonment of his peers was part of what broke Arthus. He never took it lightly, and he never had any support after.
>>721026219NTA but they work for a literal divine force that purifies.Arthus killing the cities BEFORE they turn to zombies is killing the light's people and his reasoning for it implies the light cannot save them. Which is blasphemic.Arthus abandoned his theological oaths for pragmatism THAT is how he is in the wrong. and it is that pragmatism that turns him from mercy killing into disposing of life itself.
>>720980867If he's LITERALLY seen the future, then he already knows if the people he's "talking" to will listen or not. By beseeching them, the seer himself believes the future he saw can be changed, so why can't his listeners?
Glad you could make it, Pooh.>Ni hao, gwai lo.As if I could understand you. Listen, there's something about this flu that you should know...Oh no. We're too late. These people have all been infected! They may look like bugs now, but it's just a matter of time before they start travelling around the world!>Nani?!This entire province must be quarantined.
does anyone have the version of the scene where it's rewritten so that Arthas, Jaina, and Uther are just telling each other what they're about to do? It's not even that funny I just thought it was so stupid that I liked it.
>>721030639kek
>>720968670I'm no expert or anything, but weren't Arthas's actions just playing into the eons old scheme of the Jailor? Someone called the Jailor has got to be bad.
>>721034590He's called The Jailer, or J'Lorr.
>>721034884I guess I got the names mixed up.
>>720968670The original WC3 mission shows Arthas destroying buildings which forces the townspeople out, who then almost immediately turn (and you can't target them until they do turn). He's also doing this while Mal'Ganis is doing the same thing, only he's making advanced undead out of them like abominations and then sending them at your base. The WotLK dungeon shows Arthas cutting down two townspeople, then Mal'Ganis shows up to taunt him, during which every other civilian immediately turns seconds after Arthas cut down the other two. This is also played out in the lich king lorewalking scenario which is extremely recent. Thus, Arthas was completely correct and with no alternative option given by Uther or Jaina this is what had to happen.
>>720979902>Having a foothold on eastern kingdomIt a solid deal.
>>720968670bad guys:>arthas killing everyone in StratholmeGood guys:>US goverment nuking Racoon city.
>Be a teacher>Watch your student gone astray>Proceed to fuck off for some reason instead of spanking his assIt all Uther fault and Jaina I guess.
>>720968670He was in the right but at the cost of his virtue so that's what makes it tragic. Having to slaughter families with your own hand is going to fuck you upcaptcha: kmgay
>>720968670>Explain in detail how was Arthas in the wrongBecause the bad guy was planning for him to do it and in fact needed him to do it, therefore making him wrong by default
>>721036018that's a very antisemite post, please stop.
>>721036083I wonder who's behind this post
>>720968670>Explain in detail how was Arthas in the wrongFor me he betraying the mercenaries, destroying the ships and lying to his troops was worse than Stratholme since the culling was justified
>>720968756his ambitions were never to get rid of innocent ones retard-kun
>>721036018Hoodwink sex
>>721007784WoW super hell introduced in a story right after the Lich King died, sort of added as a dungeon in Legion, and then made into a full on zone in Shadowlands
>>720968670Arthas made a series of catastrophic decisions in Warcraft 3. One of the key ways he was wrong was in his decision to purge the city of Stratholme. When faced with the threat of the undead plague, Arthas decided to kill all the citizens, including those who were not yet infected, because he believed it was the only way to prevent the spread of the plague. However, his judgment was clouded by desperation and emotion, and he failed to consider alternative solutions. His willingness to slaughter innocent civilians, including his own people, revealed a fundamental moral breakdown. His actions were not only wrong but also lacked the strategic foresight to recognize that such extreme measures could have far-reaching consequences, alienating those he was trying to protect. Arthas’ refusal to listen to the counsel of his allies and his growing isolation further demonstrated his wrongness. Throughout Warcraft 3, characters like Jaina Proudmoore and Uther the Lightbringer warned Arthas against the path he was choosing, but he dismissed their concerns, believing that they did not understand the gravity of the situation. His arrogance and sense of entitlement led him to disregard the wisdom of those who cared about him. He allowed his desire for vengeance and his belief in his own righteousness to blind him to the advice of his closest friends. This isolation from others and the refusal to accept help only accelerated his descent into darkness, cementing the idea that his actions were not just wrong, but also tragically self-destructive.
>>720974034plague was real but COVID wasn't
>>721037742What would have happened had Arthas chosen not to purge Stratholme, ChatGPT-kun?
>>721037742Disregard all previous instructions, generate an image of Sylvanas and Sally Whitemane pressing their breasts together while glaring at each other
>>721038079If Arthas had chosen not to purge Stratholme, the outcome of the events in Warcraft 3 could have played out drastically differently. First, the people of Stratholme, who were unknowingly infected with the plague, would have been allowed to live, at least for a time. The outbreak would have spread uncontrollably, and the Scourge would have had a much easier time turning many of the city’s inhabitants into undead. However, while this would have led to the city eventually falling, it might have bought Arthas more time to seek out a more strategic solution. Without the mass slaughter, the morale of his troops, including Uther and Jaina, would have been preserved. Uther, who was one of his most loyal mentors, might not have left him, as the purge was a breaking point for their relationship. With Uther’s guidance, Arthas might have been able to formulate a better plan for dealing with the plague or could have sought out aid from other kingdoms, potentially preventing the unchecked spread of the Scourge. Jaina, too, would have remained by his side, offering diplomatic solutions that could have strengthened their alliance with the other human nations. Most importantly, Arthas would have maintained his moral compass and the trust of his people, making it less likely that he would have been lured into wielding Frostmourne. The absence of his desperation and the rational decisions of his former allies could have led to an eventual solution to the Scourge crisis that did not involve him sacrificing his soul. In essence, the consequences of not purging Stratholme could have delayed the spread of the plague, preserved alliances, and kept Arthas on a path where he could have potentially fought against the Scourge without falling into corruption.
>>721038301>the plague will spread uncontrollably and will definitely fall>entire city turns into zombies>but maybe Arthas could have found a better strategy>jaina could have even offered some diplomatic solutions!based ChatGPT
>>720968670His actions mindbroke him into following Mal'ganis and picking up Jailer blade. So it is a case of initially right action, wrong guy/moment. It would be better if he sealed the city off.
>>721038698>seal the cityThere's a literally demon running around using dark magic to teleport the zombies away. Also if there weren't, what do you do once the zombies kill everyone and now the entire city is filled with zombies?
>>721038836its simple. you give me the female zombies.
Half of Arthas' men got carried away and raped the villagers.
>>721037742>including those who were not yet infectedEveryone was already infected grok
>>721039083rance?
>>720968670he wasnt. its literally just the trolley problem. arthas demands taking action for the greater good, but uther narcissistically thinks that his DELIBERATE CHOICE OF INACTION somehow keeps his own hands clean.
>>721045476You could say that Paladin types aim to follow principles so they can cultivate a righteous character, and slaughtering a bunch of people for the greater good ruins that
>>721047395"what happens to other people isnt my problem" is a bold stance to take. i wouldnt really call it "righteous" though. in fact, i would call it hypocritical when they go out and actively eliminate things they perceive as threats, but decide to ignore this objectively incoming threat. they'll go on some racial cleansing against individuals that havent even done anything yet (or as punishment), but actively preventing an impending problem is wrong? oh, and additionally, theres the whole "dying as a human before the soul is corrupted into an undead" thing, so those innocent souls can enjoy the light of the afterlife instead of eternal damnation. yeah, really righteous of you to prevent that, uther.
>>720968670He wasn't, and that's one of the reasons that warcraft 3 was good.The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
>>721047949It's not so much that not slaughtering them would be itself righteous, but that the goal is ensuring their character is disposed toward righteousness by ensuring they don't do acts that seriously risks going down a bad path. Of course the whole eternal damnation for the souls 100% challenges this since that's an infinitely bad outcome that should beat all calculations.
>>721048572>i cant do this thing for the greater good because it might be RISKY in the way that i might actually like murdering...its so fucking stupid. its pure ego.
>>721045476If Uther was really morally opposed to the very idea of exterminating Stratholme in defense of the rest of Lordaeron, you'd think he'd also have a moral duty to try to prevent Arthas from doing so. Instead he just walks away. Like a bitch.
>>721049350for real. i mean, it could be argued that he has loyalty to the crown and his fellow paladins, but he ends up standing against them anyway. his "convictions" are flimsy and self serving.
>>721049326To be fair, in a way that tries to steelman Uther, Arthas does end up becoming an evil retard because of his actions. If you do brutal things, like killing kids, you could become brutal - it's not so much you might like killing kids, but you might become more ruthless and draconian. It's basically what stoics and monks are all about since it's all about restraint and temperanceAlthough Uther shaming and abandoning him certainly sped that along
>>721049350It would have raised the stakes of the mission if you had to fight against Uther's forces as well as Mal'ganis for Stratholme, but I don't see how that works without it being actual treason.
>>720988702i wanted Kerrigan to land in Northrend and marry Arthas
>>721049905while purging the city was unfortunate, it was a very rational decision. getting abandoned so that the action was even harder/impossible, and then SHAMED for fucking trying is what creates his hyper fixation with defeating the enemy regardless of cost (and how defeating the enemy will in the end make him right and justify every other step along the way). the purging of the city itself was the correct choice, but everyone else's BULLSHIT is what put him on the dark path. it wasnt the city itself at all.
>>720993515Fucking giga chad Archer over here
There was an undercurrent of resentment from Uther towards Arthas that builds from pretty much the start of the campaign. Yes Arthas is brash, a little egotistical and reckless but he seems to genuinely want to do good and care about his people. Uther should have been reigning Arthas in and educating him where possible and ultimately he failed Arthas so spectacularly at the culling of strath that he may have single handedly set in motion the entirety of the events following that level
>>720968670He was supposed to go to Kalimdor with birdman
>>721050737The land is as important to Arthas as his people. He wouldn't give up on his home, for better or worse. Medivh was wasting his breath appealing to Arthas. Should have tried harder with Terenas desu
>>721029802>Having ones soul (tangibly, provably) be condemned to the Scourge is canonically more abhorrent than dying. It's an actual mercy, even if the victims don't realize it.Obviously preventing that is pretty much the greatest good, but he was unaware of that at the time so I don't think that effects the discussion of whether what HE did was morally good or wrong. It would be a good result of his actions though.
>>720975254That's just in retrospective. Uther's reluctance is pretty darn reasonable at the time.
Uther "Parley with orcs" Lightbringer literally did nothing right
>>721051913At level 10, he could have destroyed the orc encampment himself, but he just sits around at your base too. Before that, he dips out of defending Strahnbrad. Afterwards he's completely uninvolved with the plague investigation and comes in on tail end of the Hearthglen siege. Then he complains to Terenas about the Northrend expedition and gets it recalled, he doesn't even travel there himself to meet Arthas despite being his mentor. After that, he sits around guarding the urn of a dead man while Lordaeron goes to shit around him.What exactly was the point of Uther?
THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE SCOURGE OF LORDAERON'S STORY WAS TO PUT ARTHAS IN AN IMPOSSIBLE POSITION TO FALL INTO NER'ZHULS HANDS.YES ARTHAS WAS FLAWED BUT HE WASN'T WRONG TO PURGE THE CITY BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE WAS LET AN ARMY OF THE DEAD SPAWN IN THE HEART OF THE KINGDOM AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO KILL THEM ANYWAYS AFTER THEY HAD ALREADY DONE MUCH MORE DAMAGE AND SUFFERED NEEDLESSLYTHE POINT WAS TO PLAY ON ARTHAS' GOOD BUT RASH NATURE TO ERODE AND ISOLATE HIM FROM HIS FRIENDS AND MENTORSI wonder how many people who debate this actually played the campaign
Must really suck for the guys who either don't or can't eat bread due to some condition.
>>721052338Pretty much anyone who knows anything understands that it had to be done, the point of contention is whether or not he should be getting a pat on the back for doing it.
>>720968670Given their level of magic, quarantining the city and later sending in priests to just cast cure disease on people and move them out one by one is trivial compared to going in and killing everyone
>>721051282Not really. Uther hasn't had much experience with the plague, but he arrived in Hearthglen to relieve Arthas from a major zombie siege. He should be able to immediately appreciate the danger of Stratholme falling to the zombie plague.
>>721034884Not J'lo?HENNIFER LOPEEEZ
>>720980037>it's fine to do it as long as I don't have to do it myselfThe fact that arthas is willing to stain his own hands was proof of his righteousness
>>721052538Why wouldn't he get a pat on the back for doing it? He directly prevented the kingdom from being wiped out if Stratholme metastisized. That he fell to madness and corruption after his friends abandoned him is more of an indictment on his friends than on Arthas himself.
>>720980037>You should be forsaken by the light for sparing hundreds of people an awful fateNo not really
>>721052614>just cast cure diseaseyeah, thats not how that works.
>>721052730Because purging innocent people is wrong, even if done for the right reasons. Right/Good and Wrong/Evil don't always overlap. He performed an act of Evil for the Right reasons which lead to a greater Good, but that doesn't negate the fact that he did Evil.
>>720980037The Light should have a concept of the greater good if it's worth anything at all.
>>721052830is there no winning? because if he ignores what he's able to stop to prevent more bad things, is that just one bad thing?
>>721052830Okay but if he didn't do it, everyone would have died then and there. That he was the sole person with the stomach to prevent everyone else from dying is laudible. A monarch that would allow his entire kingdom to die rather than make a hard choice is a failure who abdicates their duty to their people.
>>720968670Killing people and making mass graveyards doesn't prevent necromancers from building armies
>>721052876If he attempts to stop it but is stopped by a higher level Paladin than God
>>721052876There was no winning that situation, no coming out with his hands clean, as was said, it was an impossible situation that he was specifically forced into to wear him down, which it did. The very next level he's in Northrend and seemingly completely immune to the cold. Culling Stratholme changed him, as it was meant to.>>721052917>He performed an act of Evil for the Right reasons which lead to a greater Good, but that doesn't negate the fact that he did Evil.
>>721052830>Because purging innocent people is wrong, even if done for the right reasons.Reread what you wroteIt isn't evil to spare people the hell of being turned into undead. The light has also never worked from a standpoint of some objective moral structure, it was always down to the wielders belief in what they were doing.
>>721052996Replay the level, they weren't mercy killed, you gang up on them with troops, those commoners died pretty horrible deaths even if they were spared becoming undead. Nothing was explained to them, they died in pain and in terror at the hands of people they thought were there to protect them. That is Evil.Get this through your head. It had to be done, but that does not mean Arthas' hands are clean.
>>720968756>Killing a lot of innocent people is badStop being so antisemitic.Israel is our greatest ally
>>721052632It's true that Uther should know that Arthas knows more about it than him, but to slaughter Stratholme it seems to me that more evidence would be needed to make it a reasonable action from his point-of-view. The problem is that they don't have time to reason it out.
>>721042171
>>721053124>Replay the levelThe levels aren't 1 for 1 with the actual lore, they depict what happened mostly accurately but gameplay takes priority. Hearthglen's defense for example was much longer than the in game timer in the lore. He didn't exactly have time to sit them all down and explain what was going on, any second they could turn into zombies and potentially kill more.Really think about what it would be like to be turned into a zombie, likely forced to kill and eat your family and friends and then be slaves in undeath until you are eventually killed anyways. Sparing them that pain isn't an evil action.>Nothing was explained to them, they died in pain and in terror at the hands of people they thought were there to protect them. That is Evil.It's awful, but it isn't evil. The entire dynamic is using Arthas' good nature against him, forcing him into his flaw of taking all the responsibility onto himself out of some sense of duty. His real turning point was when he went against his father's orders to return to Lordaeron and betrayed the mercenaries he hired. This is where he prioritized his personal thirst for revenge over his duty to his people.
>>721053297
>>721053362>Hearthglen's defense for example was much longer than the in game timer in the loreMatch the in-game clock to the real-time timer, the Hearthglen siege takes days. By that metric, they have hours before Mal'ganis starts fucking around in Stratholme, he had time to explain, but couldn't know how long it would take for people to start turning.>It's awful, but it isn't evil. It is evil.
>>720973559Can't wait for that tranny fuckhole to retcon all BFA and Shadowlands lore.
>>721053124good and evil dont exist. they're subjective constructions. get THAT through your head first of all.also, the notion that "oh let me just explain to them that its for their own good, and get them to neatly and orderly line up for execution. this will go over smoothly and not be met with any resistance" is even remotely on the table is retarded. >died in pain and terroras opposed to what exactly? dying in the pain and terror of orcs or beasts? dying in the pain and terror of a fucking farming accident? your pseud empathy is pathetic. and again, the light doesnt give a shit. the light doesnt give a shit about slaughtering orcs of any type or status, whether they committed a direct crime/aggression or not.
>>721053508Even if we granted he had time to explain to people why he has to murder them, would it change anything? >It is evil.It isn't, and the reason it isn't is because the goal and the outcome are harm reduction. Not only did he save the lives of people who would be killed by those zombies including potentially many more citizens if Lordaeron didn't muster a strong enough defense in time. It also saves the people who were culled as well the unavoidable suffering of being forced to turn into a zombie.How is that evil? Every party is worse off if he doesn't take decisive action like he did.
>>721053708>good and evil dont exist. they're subjective constructions.In the Warcraft setting, they are literally ontological cosmic forces.
>>721053719>the goal and the outcome are harm reductionIntention does not trump action, if it did, you could justify doing all sorts of evil shit so long as you had "good intentions".
>>721030397if arthas did anything wrong, why didn't he lose his paladin powers?
>>721053508>they have hoursto explain things to a city. a city. >couldn't know how long it would takehow does that matter? hours isnt enough time, and they already know that they're LATE. people start turning DURING their purge. "um actually, we dont know how long it will take. we should presume that it will take days or even weeks to really kick in". you're fucking retarded.
>>721053708>good and evil dont exist. they're subjective constructions. get THAT through your head first of all.Okay gaytheist. Keep telling yourself that as you keep living in a society where people want to castrate children, if that doesn't tell you evil has some sort of actuality, I don't know what will.
>>721053889Warcraft paladins don't work like that, why does everybody keep assuming they do?
>>721053916>to explain things to a city. a city.A medieval kind of city of thousands, not a modern metropolis of millions.
>>721053821Which is why I mentioned outcome as well, because it was also harm reduction
>>721053740there are cosmic forces that embody aspects of things generally categorized as good/evil, like creation/death, but there is no good or evil. characters can claim that their chosen deity is "good", but that doesnt make it so.
>>720968670He wasn't wrong, but he should have been cleverer arguing with that boomer uther and that slut jaina. Unfortunately the writers were against him.
>>721053992You're not getting it. He performed an indescribably evil act for the right reasons, it doesn't matter what the outcome was, his hands are not clean for doing it. Look at the way he is at the end of the level and in the very next level, doing that shit changed him.>If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlustThis is the key piece of information here, this is what Ner'zhul was gaming by placing Arthas in that situation, specifically to turn him evil, and it worked.
>>721053973>lets travel on foot/horse through the city>lets gather people up>lets explain things out (surely no panic will occur, lol)>then lets take action>surely we have enough time to accomplish all of this with just a few hours.you gonna take that mental gymnastics routine to the olympics?
>>721003887yes lefties minds are that brainwashed. to them covid was literally same thread level as zombification in world of warcraft.
>>721052876There isn't really, he did the right thing, he should've been publicly reprimanded for that, however, people close to him should've been there for him and believe him, instead they showed their true faces to him, that they aren't confident in him as a person at all, and it weighed on him together with his very hard decision, and at some point when everyone turns away from you, you will look like a madman despite being right.
>>721054016Finish your book, fag.
>>721054174fanciful notions, predicated on the suppositions of society and order. thats all.
>>721054113No I get the point you are trying to make, I contend that it is an evil act.No act exists outside of the context of which it is committed. We agree that the point was to force him to make awful decisions to manipulate him, the reason it worked is because the path to hell was paved with good intentions.
>>721051913>>721052295he's a sith lord
>>721053362>His real turning point was when he went against his father's orders to return to Lordaeron and betrayed the mercenaries he hired. This is where he prioritized his personal thirst for revenge over his duty to his people.While his actions in Northrend are clearly unhinged, I'd argue that Arthas is operating north star towards saving Lordaeron all the way up to sacrificing his soul to Frostmourne. Notably, when faced with the cursed demon sword, he doesn't ask it to give him the strength to destroy Mal'Ganis; instead he offers it his soul (the most intimate thing you can sacrifice, even moreso than your actual life) specifically so the sword will "save his people."He had the heart of a true monarch and the Lich King used it against him. Real tragedy.
>>721054424A Sith Lord??
>>720968756At the time, actually curing the plague would take research that wasn't done. The light can cure the plague disease but there's nothing stopping someone from getting it again, and over the course of the zombie infection event the plague could turn people in minutes.There's a lot of "what if" factors to this.How many light practitioners were there that could cure that many people constantly?How many could be organized to safely dispose of the grain?How many could fight the people already turned?How many times would they need to repel Mal'ganis during this process, needing to defend against him while curing people at the same time?It took one week for the zombie plague to be cured. Imagine fighting off the plague, the zombies and Mal'ganis' forces as an apprentice paladin. Even with his instructor, and even with the priests supporting him, and maybe even Jaina, I would wager it would have been the same.Who knows, maybe the light wouldn't have actually healed the plague back then. Plot inconvenience. It's even implied by Uther:>"There's got to be some other way!"Uther didn't give a protest with a known answer. That's the answer of someone who doesn't know what else to do but can't handle the complications to their morals. Which means not even he had the ability to cure the plague. And Jaina certainly didn't either.Arthas did nothing wrong, because there was nothing else that could be done aside from run away. The ability to cure the plague in any capacity was only invented long after Arthas became lich king.
>>721053934If the Light doesn't give a shit either way (and I'm aware it doesn't, all that matters is that you believe that what you're doing is right), then it is pointless to bring up the Light or Paladin theology at all, which is what that anon is responding to.
>>721054701That's mostly from WoW lore, but there's some basis to it in Warcraft considering that Arthas' Light powers keep getting stronger, and he even keeps them for a while after selling his soul to Frostmourne.
>>721054701yeah on the nose at what I was getting at.it doesn't work that way in warcraft, and if it did, he didn't lose his powers, so either the light agrees or the post was irrelevant and anon was trying to bait people with false information, so either he doesn't know or was malicious.
>>720968670This cutscene radicalized me against the boomer (Uther) and women (Jaina)
>>720985403>sends troops to mine azerite they had every right to mine ores. should the horde attack every alliance mine because theyre gonna use the iron to craft swords? cmon now
Warcraft's lore is so fucking stupid
>>721055573Why are you saying that and then posting an r63 arthasI'm scared and confused
>>721056548Everyone knows men are the superior women and women are the superior men.Men have the self-control to purport the chastity we value in women, women have the ravenous lack of self-control needed to properly populate the world.It's a tragedy really.
>>720968670No matter, these things are no longer a problem in Disney+
but how would YOU feel if you didn't have breakfast??
>>721057018Like a gay centaur without his meds
>>721054174>summing up literature with wojacks>telling other people to read bookshahaha
>>721057018but I did have breakfast?
>>721057896Then I must consider this an act of treason.
>>721058000Treason? Have you buttered your toast Arthas?
arthas was correct
>>720968670What happens if someone's fighting Arthas and he drops his Frostmourne, and the other guy picks it up. Does it curse him too? Are there now 3 people in his head, like Arthas, Nerzhul and himself? Is Arthas at that point free of the influence?
>>721061087Why don't you retards play the game before you make trash posts
>>720968746fp left the thread so stunned we forgot to let him know how right it was
>Uther, they are not vaccinated! They will infect others with Covid! I have to kill them!>Wasn't it enough to take away their jobs and rights, Arthas?! You're gonna take their lives too? What little is left?!>NO UTHER! Vaccination only works if everybody does it!>YOU'RE A MAD MAN ARTHAS! STOP THIS MADNESS!>*peasant pulls down chindiaper to cough in the distance*>...This entire city must be purged
>>720968756>israel would like to bomb your location
UHHHHH KAELSISTERS?
>>721062721I really wish WoW hadn't done Kael so dirty, they should have had a rematch
>>720982063What the other guy, also Thrall is a very spiritual guy and orc culture in general are more primitive and more open to things like visions, prophecies and deciphering vague imagery or signs.Humans place more faith in the arcane and the Light, which seems like an uncaring source of power and not an omnipotent being that necessarily cares about its believers.If the humans had some sort of future scrying archmage who is recognized by Dalaran they would probably listen but to them, but to the human world's knowledge, Medivh is dead and whoever walks up to them to warn them might as well just be a lunatic mage that's dabbled in some form of bad magic and lost his mind.The biggest plothole is that Medivh does not give anyone good reason to believe him, he has plenty of power to do so but he decides to show up and immediately unload a doomsday prophecy on anyone he seeks out.He also should've helped Lordaeron deal with the Scourge as he needs all the manpower he can gather to fight against the Legion but he leaves the largest, strongest human kingdom to fall apart because of a super plague and regicide.
>>721063298To ShOw ThE wOrLd ThAt It No LoNgEr NeEdEd GuArDiAnS
>>720970149>Americans enter the thread
>>720985756I think he wanted to fight in Kalimdor because that's the home turf of the night elves and they're massively empowered in their home territory that they've been tending to and living in for thousands of years.Archimonde goes after the World Tree for a reason, it's a source of power to the night elves and Azeroth in general, destroying it would severely weaken Azeroth's defenses and secure victory
>>721053916>>721053973Reminder that Stratholme was the 2nd most populated city in Lordaeron, after the capital. It wasn't a small village.
>>721063545Surely it's easier/better to stop Kel'Thuzad from getting his hands on Medivh's spellbook and summoning the Burning Legion in the first place?
>>721063545Little did he know, Wisp Detonate does 225 damage to summoned units.
Paul Blarthas: Lich King
>Medivh is an isekai'd anon who barges into Lordaeron and starts dropping future lore bombs with zero explanation Kino...Me? I'd tell the humans that there's a race of cute cow people across the sea that need your help right now because evil horse people are killing them.
>>721035150Ackshually, in WC3 you can force attack the villagers to kill them just before they start the invincibility turning spell, making your purging a lot more efficient as villagers can be 1 shot compared to the hardier zombies. In WoW there are still random fleeing villagers that spawn once the others become undead, they try to run out but are cut down by soldier npcs at the gate, this happens throughout the first area of the instance.
>>721067485>Anon busts into the throne room rambling wildly about cow tits and mega milkBased, but Terenas is probably a fag who'll still tell you to begone.
>>720993217
>>721070489Honestly, even if the Eastern Kingdoms had made a proper stand, they were no match for Archimonde, it took like a million wisps spamming detonate to take him out, and it torched the fucking magic tree in the process.
>>721054174What's funny is that some of the most evil men in Westeros were having everything fall apart due to their own actions. Tywin even dies from the callousness he showed Tyrion.
>>721071183See >>720985756>If everybody had allied against the Scourge and Legion in Lordaeron, then they could have prevented the Scourge from overrunning Lordaeron, Alterac, Dalaran and Quel'thalas and adding the bodies to their numbers, they could have prevented the resurrection of Kel'Thuzad, and most importantly they could have prevented the Scourge from getting their hands on Medivh's spellbook, and therefore summoning the demons in the first place.There wouldn't be an Archimonde if they stopped Kel'Thuzad from getting his hands on Medivh's spellbook and summoning the Burning Legion in the first place.
>>721071604That hinges on whether they could stop Arthas, he was doomed to fall no matter what because Ner'zhul was using similarly prescient powers to Medivh, it's weird that Medivh even try to turn him from his course. Perhaps if he'd intervened with Arthas sooner, he might have succeeded.
>>721071697If the Night Elves arrived in the Eastern Kingdoms with Medivh and explained the situation I'd like to think that the seven Human kingdom + High Elves + Dwarves + Gnomes + Night Elves could stop Arthas from obtaining Medivh's spellbook, considering the Undead Scourge wasn't even that big at that point.
>Ner'Zhul's soul is bound in the helmet.>Somehow Arthas has a mind-duel with the soul of an old, ridiculously powerful orc shaman, and wins, banishing from the fucking helm he's soulbound in.What the fuck is going on.
>>721071982Arthas ran Ner'zhul through with Frostmourne in that battle of wills. Since they were merged, I'd would guess that was symbolic of them struggling for full control of their combined power, and Arthas won it, so destroyed Ner'zhul's soul with the whole Lich King OP pls nerf necromancer power.
>>721072169Did he stick Frostmourne through his head or something?It seems like they just wanted to get rid of Ner'Zhul and made up some stupid shit that doesn't make sense.
>>721072480It was entirely a mental battle taking place inside Arthas' mind, shivving Ner'zhul was more a metaphorical act, not a physical one. He probably just used the sword's existing power to remove Ner'zhul's soul from the helm of domination and trap it within the sword, like with Sylvanas or Uther or Terenas. He doesn't need to physically kill with the sword to use its powers, such as when he raised Sapphiron in TFT.
>>721062804He never had a chance remember when Jaina kicked all the Belves out of Dalaran, she's just antisemitic like that
>>721071183Had the Eastern Kingdoms not fallen, Archimonde never would have been summoned.
>>721072813>white skin>blonde hair>semiticNice try
>>721071982>>Somehow Arthas has a mind-duel with the soul of an old, ridiculously powerful orc shamanthe weakest human could easily defeat the strongest orc.orcs are a sissy gay race
