Why didn't Super Mario Maker-style level editor games explode in popularity after its success?Super Mario Maker came out in 2015 and SMM2 in 2019.Imagine Megaman Maker or Metroid Maker, Kirby, or Sonic.
Too much moderation is required
i used to watch a japanese youtuber who played the kaizo levels for the first MM but now I can't find him because his channel name was just a bunch of moon runes and I don't want to watch faggy and gay americans who have to inject their shit personality into every vid
most people arent very creative at all, most people get a blank canvas and get scared of it. so what ends up happening is these games become content farms for a handful of autists for a few years. fans of the game end up not playing it, preferring to watch people more creative and capable than they are, and maybe occasionally playing that person's content.
i only ever bothered to put serious effort in a couple of levels of the first mario maker.although it was just a proof on concept i tried making a level that was mirrored so when you went into a pipe it was as if the gravity of the stage flipped, it was really tedious to make and the level wasn't that good but i thought it was clever.
>>721351281perfect execution for 2 minutes us not fun level design yet that's what most people make
Mario Kart maker or Zelda dungeon maker would be cool as fuckeven a pokemon maker would be cool even if making an entire region would take half a year
>>72135128190% of the content for the MM games was just retards spamming enemies all over the screen. Most people don't have a creative bone in their body, and it also didn't help that Nintendo in their infinite wisdom didn't provide any sort of basic guidelines for good level design, ie, don't just make a shitty maze or spam a bunch of enemies all over the place. Marketing this towards children was also a huge mistake since, surprise, children don't tend to put much deep thought into what they make, and it should surprise nobody that the best level makers were all adults, and the vast majority of spam came from little kids taking a diarrhea dump on their switch and uploading it.
I still play Mario Maker 2. I look up the actually good custom maps. It's great fun.
>>721351281Level design is soulless unless an actual dev made it
>>721351281Mega Man Maker got cancelled in 2011
>>721351281Mario Maker is more of a toy than an actual level creator.
>>721351281There's an I wanna be the guy Maker-style game that's been out since 2018 or so
>>721352903It's really bizarre to see just how awful people truly are at designing levels. It's not like this is some new concept that had never been done before, you have decades of Mario games to study and take inspiration from. Presumably the majority of people who bought Mario Maker have at least played a Mario game before so why don't most people at least try to replicate what they've seen in those games?
>>721351281>Super Mario Maker came out in 2015It's been a decade? Shit, it's still fairly new in my head
>>721351281Nintendo can't keep doing it
>>721353485They're probably kids, dude.
Metroid is a bit long-winded for thatSonic has always struggled with needing enormous tracts of level to justify the games' speed, now more than ever (load up a Sonic Generations or Unleashed level in a model viewer some time, shit is ginormous)Mega Man is very well suited to that kind of formula but a large part of the appeal is eight new niggas to steal powers from, would work best in a scenario where you've set it up as a SMM "world" with eight robots and you can set their weaknesses, but even that's getting into the "too tall an order for a Maker game" territoryKirby would work very well
Mega Man Maker is not official but does exist as a fan game and its most recent update was about 3 weeks ago
I think the main problem with the concept is why would you bother? You're essentially creating content for a game for free, when you could just use an engine and make your own game. While at the same time, actually playing other levels isn't all that fun, and not just Kaizo levels; it's like why even play the levels to begin with, have you finished all 2D Mario games? I imagine most people haven't.>>721352807I feel like there aren't enough racing games with easy to use track creation tools, and if you could race other people on the tracks, then a Mario Kart Maker could be worth checking out, especially if you could change the power up selection. There have been a few attempts at a Zelda Maker over the years (Zelda Classic, Super Dungeon Maker, Quest Master, and I guess there was that Link's Awakening remake dungeon thing), but I feel like it requires quite a bit of skill to actually make a compelling dungeon, which is probably why no one brings up Zelda Classic.
>>721352072This is pretty much the only thing that explains it, I think. Take pic related, for instance. Great idea-- no one played it.
>>721351281Level editor in games were already old at the point of Mario Maker's release, and Mario Maker just concluded that era of video games by making an in-depth level editor as a standalone game.Right now level editors are pretty much obsolete, as anyone can mod a game, make their own games in Unity, or if that's too difficult there's a simpler option like RPG maker, or GameMaker.Level editor may be easier to use sure, but in the end it's stupidly limited and it gets old pretty quickly. You're better off just putting a little a bit more to learn an actual game making software and potentially earn some cash.
>>721351281The problem with Mario Maker is that most people are terrible at making good levels and there's not a lot of incentive to make good ones or for a player to really try to finish them.I put a lot of thought into my levels and tried to keep them at a "normal" difficulty. They didn't require esoteric knowledge, but I tried to be creative. Stuff that's probably common, I dunno, but for example I made a level where the lava is rising and you need to get through obstacles and reach the exit. I made sure there was at least 30 seconds or so of extra time compared to my best time so it would be challenging but fair. Or on another level, there was a series of tricky jumps but if you missed you wouldn't die, there was a door back to the beginning of that area.So that's the sort of level I'd make: it would be slightly unconventional but fit into normal Mario difficulty.And then there's the types of levels 99% of other people make: 1) torture hell for streamers that the designer himself needs a week just to clear once, 2) random dogshit made by children, 3) gimmick levels that play music or some shit.My levels got played at the same rate as the dogshit levels and despite being fair, even easy, they only had like a 5% clear rate. As a result I made like 20 levels for MM1 but only a couple for MM2 even though it was a far superior tool.There needs to be some clever system designed so good level makers are rewarded somehow. I don't know what it would be, maybe some deep learning bullshit.
>>721351281smm pales in comparison to lunar magic>>721353854>Metroid is a bit long-winded for thatno it isn't. you can play small areas
>>721351281Because all Mario Maker levels are just autorunners or stupid shit kids make
>>721355632But I do not want to play small areas for Metroid, I want huge vertical corridors
>>721354292>but I feel like it requires quite a bit of skill to actually make a compelling dungeon, which is probably why no one brings up Zelda Classic.This is ironically also the reason Zelda filtered over to open world with only four mostly-optional dungeons, dungeons are fucking hard to make as any tabletop guy can tell you
Sonic requires a large variety of different shapes of ground, not just blocksMetroid is reliant on an entire game world, not just a level Megaman and Kirby could work, but perhaps their old games are not as widely recognised to take the risk on? Dunno. I think Mario works because it's very broad ungimmicky platformer concepts, like LBP
>>721352903>>721353729>>721355332>>721355729>kidsthis is the only correct answer. look at a painting made by a kid, and one made by an adult. the same principle applies to mario maker. they can't make courses, and they can't play the courses, which directly leads to what >>721352072 was saying. the kids create an ocean of shit that nobody plays, meanwhile the adult autists isolate themselves from that and form their own little communities where they just make levels for each other.
>>721352072>>721353068Playing Mario Maker is how great level/puzzle/game designers are born
>>721351281Gran Turismo was doing this way before tendiemaker
>>721356448Nah, Lunar Magic is the crucible from which good level designers are born. Lunar Magic actually takes time to learn how to use effectively, and needing to download a ROM and set up an emulator filters out the kids and the retards. Finally, if you actually do make a hack and upload it, even the trannies over at SMWCentral will tell you if your hack is shit and not accept it, and that rejection will turn off all but the most dedicated.Compare that to Mario Maker, where, as it's been pointed out, any retarded kid can just pick up, vomit all over the screen, and upload with no oversight or quality control.
>>721351281Mario maker 1 physics > Mario maker 2 physics
Someone needs to make Mario Maker for PC but like you can join worlds and build/play levels together. Like Terraria but focused on being a platformer instead of adventure/crafting. MM is missing that multiplayer aspect im0. Just building in a void get lonely. Idk if it would be possible or how you would handle enemy spawns.
>>721352807>a pokemon maker would be cool even if making an entire region would take half a yearmake it a multiplayer/MMO collab project
>>721354472Such a shame this game flopped. I LOVED this game as a kid, I made dozens of microgames.
>>721351281metroid maker wouldn't work because you wouldn't be making smaller shorter levels, but an entire game's worth of interconnected levels. Capcom was making a Megaman maker long before Mario Maker came out but it got canned when Inafune left the company and they never bothered to revisit it
>>721353068I'm at least willing to entertain this take even if I strongly disagree. What's your reasoning here?
>>721351281Because in a neutral state of affairs, the average person really does not care for the process of making things. This is in regards to both making things themselves and for appreciating the effort that others have put into doing so. This, of course, limits the amount of levels being made, but it also results in less people playing them, as without that interest in "What Others Have Made," it easily can feel like a chore to sift through thousands of levels to find individual ones of varying quality and for only short bursts of fun (although I know SMM2 tried to address this a bit with Worlds). It ultimately means that people are more fun waiting for romhacks and fangames that take years to release, as they're just considered with the finished experience, and those things provide the whole enchilada. SMM and SMM2 instead mostly just propelled themselves forward on initial novelty, and there just haven't been legs since then. People don't engage with these things so much when there's not popularity or novelty. That's why you say "imagine Mega Man Maker or Metroid Maker" when such things exist already. The only people who really care about level creation in all regards and in a neutral state are the people who continue to play DOOM.
>>721351281what's weird is that they still haven't made Mario Maker 3D
>>721357256Mario Maker is getting people in the door who might then move on to Lunar Magic when they realize they enjoy this process, and to say that you'd have to start out with Lunar Magic to be considered good is like saying handing a kid a box of crayons is dooming his art career.
Tendies are so fucking stupid. There's tons of games with an active and popular user maps scene thanks to editor tools. They have existed for a long time.
>>721356197Mega Man Maker is an excellent proof of concept but does bump into the inherently limiting aspect of it being a "Maker" game, it gets around it by having a high number of options or having levels dedicated to specific special weapon options but it won't and can't ever capture the fantasy of Making Your Own Mega Man Game because a large draw for that is your own Robot Master bosses
>>721352807>Mario Kart makerjust play Ring Racers and learn how to use the mod tools
>>721353563no it just came out I swear
What even happened with SMM2? It didn't have the impact that SMM on Wii U had even though it sold twice the amount.
A few tips for those making Mario courses..1) Easy course, 20-30 seconds. Medium course, 60-90 seconds. Hard course, 2 to 3 minutes. There can be short courses that are hard, but generally this is what I feel works, because hard courses you need to make the rules clear and set up the player’s expectations for how you’ll be using the parts for those more complex sequences.2) Try and boil down your course to five major parts. Enemies, objects and gimmicks. How do they work together to create an experience they wouldn’t be able to separately?3) Play around and create sequences that you’ll enjoy, you’ll spend more and more time with those major parts and then make it hard for yourself as you look for a challenge.4) Now you need to ask “How can I make sure the player will be prepared for this sequence I’ve made to be used at or near the end?” These set up sequences will provide the skeleton for your course. Then you can add fun variations of your larger sequences in bite sized segments to go inbetween to keep the player engaged. The difficulty should curve up as the course goes on instead of down or feeling even throughout.5) Try and beat your courses three different ways - speed running, walking and jumping only, and as if a player is coming across a gimmick for the first time (ie - seesaw).
for me it's Super Mario Bros. X
i'm making the kirby maker please look forward to itpowerful features. streamlined interface
>>721363234looks neat, anon
>>721351281For actual console based ones? Limited as fuck and awkward as fuck to use comapred ot something like smbx or actual rom editorsThe other problem is that people aren't creative and there were very little, if any playtesters for these levels to begin with
If I'm not mistaken, Mario Maker 2 sold 5 million copies, right? That's a respectable number, but it's a game with the Mario and Nintendo brands, heavily driven by viral marketing.LevelHead, which is a copy of Mario Maker but for PCs, has ~800 reviews on Steam. Yes, it's a pretty bad game, but it's a good metric to show how niche these types of products are.In fact, they are niche within a niche, because even the niche of people who like to create things always end up migrating to more powerful tools.Mario Maker-style games are the baby tier of editors and creation tools, and you wouldn't expect many people to get hooked on a game like that unless you're on a closed platform full of brand loyalty from fans.
They only made Mario Maker to nuke all of those illegal ROMs and fanshit garbage.Now all those ROM and fanshit makers simply moved to Mario Maker and Nintendo is fine with it.
>>721353068I beg to differ
>>721353068>redditfrog>talks about something else being soulesspottery
>>721363234What would you say has been the most difficult part of creating the UI so far? Like what was more complex than you were expecting?
>>721363234Looks bretty goodCare to throw us a link?
>>721351281>tendies unironically think nintendo invented level editors
I fucking love doom builder. I wish godot or unity had a scene edit mode that was as straight forward or as flexible as sectors. Zonebuilder has a tool to export as stl meshes but its kind of a pain.
>try to put heart and soul in making a balanced level in the same style Nintendo makes Super Mario Bros levels>nobody gives a shit>make some kaizo slop >thousands of playersFuck this game. Effortposting gets punished. Kinda like this website in a way. Bet this reply won't get a single (You). I hate you faggots so much.
Shit game.
Japs make the worst levels. Look at the top 100 and it's all "refreshing" levels, music (mostly undertale), 30 sec speedruns, auto levels, and stupid puzzles that require next to no thinking.In then when you play multiplayer versus half of the levels are 4lane races which suck because they ruin the best part about mpvs which is interacting and sabotaging your opponents. If I wanted to speedrun a cramped wii u level I would just sort by new.
