It's time we have a frank discussion about the combat in Silk Song.It's not good. Throwing a bunch of tool into the mix doesn't help the fact that the core design of the game is bad. The tools just help you subvert the gameplay. Not engage with it properly. The problem comes down to pic related. The tells for the enemies are really bad. They just flinch into an awkward pose for about 1/10th of a second, and then go into an attack. And you're expected to be able to read the poses in real time. It's already hard enough to read the poses due to how similar they can be sometimes, and how fast the attacks come out. But add to that the fact that most attacks do 2 masks of health, and now you have artificial difficulty. Because you can't learn to read the tells faster than the boss can kill you.The first hollow knight's design was also similarly bad. But at least bosses only did 1 mask of health, and their flinching poses were a little longer, giving you more time to assess what's happening. Team Cherry doesn't know how to make the game more difficult without simply increasing numbers. Increase the attack speed, increase the damage, and voila, call it a sequel. It's artificial difficulty, and it's fucking balls.I don't even enjoy fighting in this game. The exploration segments are nice while they last. And then at the end, I have to fight a boss, and it's just plain tiresome. There's no joy in going through the trial and error. I'm just going to say it: Silk Song is bad. I wanted to like it. There are things to like. But overall, it's too unlikable.
>>721419484>sword up = jump>sword down = don't jumpeezee peezee
>>721419484What bothers me is that every bipedal enemy has the exact same move set, both as bosses and regular mobs.
>>721419484>Playing silk songYou deserved everything, sloptroon.
>>721419484I think you might just be bad at action videogames.You make these claims about the correct amount of wind-up required for an attack to be readable, but I can counter with the fact I have no problem reading the attacks. My claim has equal weight to yours, as it is a subjective matter.Matter of fact, the dash is so broken you can just react to everything by dashing away, then either dashing back if the attack is done to keep damaging the boss, or jump if it's a jumping dodge. So, you failed to properly explore the game's mechanics to overcome your limitations.The combat is bad due to how piss easy healing is. You can just jump and the boss' ai doesn't know what to do to stop you, making the game very easy. I killed a couple of late game bosses first try by just tanking and healing with the healing upgrade charm. Conclusion. Git gud.
>>721419484>knees bent like it's about to jump>it jumps>arm outstretched low and backward>does a low slashseems reasonable to me desu, maybe try actually reacting naturally to what's happening instead of looking for shortcuts.
>>721419484>0.1 seconds>go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bBzdIqcKgo>advance frame by frame with < > buttons>32 fucking frames picrelated is heldAnyway, it's a game where you mostly steer well away from enemies and punish when they zoom by or recover.
>>721419990I can't really say how well you read attacks, because I haven't seen you play. Say if you die 6 times to a boss, and I die 6 times to a boss, we have equal deaths, but you think it's totally fine, and I think it's bullshit. Who is to say what is right. So yes, it's subjective. But it's as subjective how you *feel* about the difficulty, as it is how you perform too.You say I haven't explored the game's mechanics. But I use dash all the time. The last fight I was in, the boss repeatedly caught me in attacks, because I dashed when I shouldn't have. Because yes, the bosses also have moves that are designed to catch the player when they dash. The idea that you can just dash about whenever you want is kind of bullshit.Dashing away when the bosses begins their attack isn't a real dodge. It's you flinching away. You make a gamble that dashing is safer than other actions. You flinch-dash, and then sometimes you get away, sometimes you get caught.
>>721419484shut the fuck up you stupid nigger
>>721419484Don't agree about the tells, do agree about the damage. Another problem is most of the boss fights rely on adds on top of lots of visually noisy effects making the challenge more about trying to see where you are in relation to the 5 things you need to dodge. Then there is the fact that enemies are complete damage sponges, even with tools most enemies just take an absurdly long time to whittle down their health. It's like Team Cherry was insistent that you see every move a boss has at least a dozen times each before you're allowed to finally get the fight over with. But it's not just bosses. Even minor enemies take too many damn hits; I don't need every minor ant and fly feeling like a fucking miniboss.And the exploration only gets good after you have the dash, parachute cloak, and wall cling. Until you get those three upgrades Hornet's movement feels like sluggish shit and getting around areas is an exercise in absolute tedium and linearity for the first couple hours.Maybe Team Cherry is actually deeply sexist and so they went, "Hornet's a girl, so she has to be a weak little bitch," but either way, Silksong has to be one of the most thoroughly unpleasant games I have have ever played that was not due to being a godawful buggy and janky mess.
>>721419484>the telegwaphs awen't long enouuuuughKek, just straight up outing yourself as bitchmade. Maybe try not having slower reflexes than your granny and you'll have a better time.
>>721419484dumb complaint since most bosses have like 3-5 attacks max so tells are never a real issuethe actual problem is with double contact damage making spacing way more important esp. with bosses that jump or move around erratically
>>721419484plenty of bosses have patterns that don't fit that picturefirst sinner for ex either has a running attack, a dive attack or various radiance like projectiles which are all much easier to read than the overly subtle tells portrayed here, others like kahn literally have giant lines a second before every attack showing you where to dodgethis kind of stuff is only really true for lace especially her third form which is indeed extremely hard but it's the true final boss
>>721420830...all of them? Karmelita is fucking insane just because of how fast she can move around randomly
>enemy has a projectile with a telegraphed animation>their aim tracks you and perfectly leads the shot all the way until the shot is already out, so the telegraph is useless in avoiding it.
>gameplay where you have to quickly identify and react to enemy attacks is bad, actually
The enemies really aren't that fast.
>>721420539I checked, and I think you're right. About 32-33 frames on the wind up.Doesn't really matter though, because I was exaggerating. I didn't mean literally 0.1 frames. I just chose a low number to get the idea across that the tells are very fast.
>>721420830>>721420647If the tells aren't a problem, then why do you complain about the double damage?Answer: Because you got hitWhy? Because you failed to react to the tell.
>>721420932>enemy about to throw projectile>instinctively jump from my location because I assume he targetted my current position>he throws it into the air>I maneuvered myself into a position where dodging is more difficult and didn't know you can dash downward for 50 hoursI can't be mad, if I wanted to blame the game I would argue that they should tell you about spoiler.
>>721420624>Who is to say what is right.The other anon, definitely. Learn to accept failure sometimes instead of being spoonfed easy wins, faggot.
>>721421203>I... I took damage? In an action game? The enemy fought back? This... THIS IS BULLSHIT! BROKEN GAME DESIGN!
>>721421594Once you accept failure as a matter of course toward improvement, then you no longer worry about if you will win, but only when and how you will win. The win becomes inevitable in your mind. At which point, the value of the experience is how it feels to play.And it doesn't feel good for the aforementioned reasons.There is no joy in learning the little flinches of the enemies. There is no joy in learning all the little "gotchas" they throw in, just to fuck with you, after you learned the initial tells. There is no joy in victory. And there are no rewards to make the effort worthwhile. So I have to wonder why I even play.
>>721421142They're fast but I found them very reactable personally. And there's a case to be made that these attacks aren't meant to be meant to be recognized in an instant and you only move to dodge then and there. The game doesn't have i-frames to lean on and the game can be very cheap with contact damage, so unless you're already very familiar with the boss, you should already be moving away after you've gotten a decent amount of hits in to see what the boss does next, so you have some leeway there if you have some distance.The real "issue" with Silksong and many action games really is that bosses always have priority because they have infinite poise and all you do is slip attacks during and after their attacks. Being aggressive in them is just a matter of knowing more openings and being able to fit more attacks in. Silksong does have a parry and the occasional stagger to make the fights feel more interactive but by and large you're swiping at a boss whose only feedback will be glowing white.
>>721421735You're so right. Enemies should deal 5 masks of damage. Just don't get hit. It's really that easy.
I hate hearing people call something "bad game design" like there's some objective yardstick they can hold up to the game to dictate that actually you're not allowed to like it. it reeks of armchair experts who know literally nothing.
>>721421968>So I have to wonder why I even play.Taking into account you complaining about 1 seconds tells being too short, I'd say it's to test your atrophied cognitive abilities.
>>721419484git gud
>>721421968Maybe challenging games just aren't for you.
>>721422291>git gud>took three hits on the warm-up bugsAbsolute kek
>>721419572Get gud
>>721422381You're retarded. Why did you respond to me? Never respond to my post ever again.
>>721422427>he can't dodge shitposter's repliesSkill issue.
>>721422482I'm going to have a frank discussion about this, so help me.
>>721422163>1 secondMore like 1/2 a second, if we're being realistic. Me and the other anon counted the frames to one of Lace's attacks.Dual me: Post your score: https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
>>721422756Anon, the video is running at 30FPS.
>>721423006Wait, never mind. I had it at the higher quality. Call me stupid.
>>721423087Stupid
>>721422756>>721422163Here's what I got after a few tries. This is either fast or slow, depending on what information you're measuring by. The website gives conflicting measurements.It says the human reaction time is between 200-250. However, it also says the *median* time is 273. But if you go to the statistics page, it says the *average* is 284.So if you take what they say on the front of the page as the truth, then I'm on the slow end of average. If you take what they say on the statistics page as truth, then I'm on the fast side of average. I'm choosing to accept the statistic's page. Since that number is probably the one being updated by the users. 245 isn't anything super special. But it's a little better than average.
>>721419484Filtered
>>721422375I'm not the one complaining how difficult the game is on 4changit gud
>>721420539>32 framesmother fucker the entirety of silk song doesn't even have 32 unique frames of animations.it's a fucking slide show where everything just holds static poses.
Nobody wants to compare their reaction time to mine? Now is your opportunity to show me just how bad I am. All you have to do is go here and test your reaction time. Takes 1 minute.https://humanbenchmark.com/
I'm nearing the end of act 2, only a few side bosses left, full map unlocked. but I'm dreading the few boss fights i haven't done, and the last cathedral gauntlet. This game feel like a waste of time because I don't really feel myself getting better. In my opinion some crests need buffs, particularly the beast crest. Strong and fun, but not strong enough to justify the shit binding ability. Either make it stronger, of have bind heal for 2, and make you hit to earn the last heal. There's so many times I wasted a beast crest bind because I didn't have an open opportunity to attack the boss.
>>721424029>>721423213This was 4 tries
In my 30s too.
>>721423213First try. Tried a couple more times and got scores ranging from low 190s to high 210s.
>>721419484the fundamental problem is that silks songs "animation" is lazy subpar dogshit.it has no pacing, no flow. most telegraphs are just 1 frame of a static pose. that's not even animationI'll show a comparison here's what a real animation looks like.You'll see it has a flow and a pacing to it. -pullback-apex-swing accelerationect
>>721423970Frames is a measure of time in this context, 60fps video, so 32 frames is a little over half a second.
>>721424478>>721424248Harrumph. There's got to be some kind of lag on my machine. The page says that some devices can cause up to 150ms of lag. Hang on. I'm going to try some things.
>>721424752Now here's what silk songs ""animation"" looks like.no flow at all. just jerky and terrible.
looks absolutely retarded
>>721424752this is what makes a good telegraphing animation.>>721424831this is what makes the world most lazy telegraph animation that is hard to read or discern any sort of pace at all.you have no idea how long the character will hold that static pose and the very next frame is a hit box with no acceleration frames before hand.
>>721424926compared to what. you're in a thread about a game where this poorly drawn pose is the "telegraph animation" that comes right before a frame 1 slash.it looks like nothing.
>>721424752>>721424831>>721424985Looks to me like you just want the telegraphs to take two seconds so even your games journalist ass has time to react. Nobody's buying that your real gripe has anything to do with aesthetics.
>>721422291>he thinks four seconds of pogoing is impressive
I struggle a bit, but it's a good pain. Getting in the groove against First Sinner and Lace 2 was very satisfying. Playing mostly melee, although I did burst down one of the final wide boys in the gauntlet with tacks and grenades. I think I'm one flea away from act 3.
>>721425224>compared to whatto how you'd hold a heavy sword for a overheadthe exagerated squatting and raising one leg is retarded
>>721425315nothing impressive just looks cool, that's why I don't get why so many of you are filtered
>>721423970you're not nearly as smart as you think you are
>>721425260Nice cope retard.you can speed it up. there a very fast actuion games with smooth animations.the important thing is that it's actual animation instead of a fucking slide show with no animation principals.3 frames is not a properer attack animation.
I just tanked through most of the game with wandere's crest, game isn't really difficult if you do that.I feel like radahn prime vaccinated me against difficulty, nothing feels as bullshit as this once you've mastered this fight
>>721424810frames that are not moving are not helpful.reaction is based on witnessing movement and predicting where something's going to be.if something has no animation, therefore movement, then there's no pace to gauge.
>>721424831That is how it looks though
>>721425224It looks like you need to get out of the fucking way of her divekick follow up, since she isn't in parry state or distinct aerial wind up. Her remaining moves are straight line grounded attacks. The tell for that triple hit in neutral is a little bronze flourish with her pin.
>>721422083>>721425763>moving the goalpost
>>721424184>I don't really feel myself getting betterIf you tackle that High Halls gauntlet you WILL feel yourself getting better.
>>721425930let's be honest you can't even call this slop animation. it's so fucking lazy.
>>721426215>ending frame recycles the same pose as the starting telegraph frame.
>>721425662You're the one coping. You can't react to Lace's telegraphs in time and you're trying to smokescreen your sour grapes behind a bunch of faff about animation. The reason you can't read the attacks is not because there aren't enough unique frames during the telegraph, it's because your brain is slow.
>>7214261082 different people dipshit.
>>721420624>Say if you die 6 times to a boss, and I die 6 times to a boss, we have equal deaths, but you think it's totally fine, and I think it's bullshit.>Dashing away when the bosses begins their attack isn't a real dodge. It's you flinching away. You make a gamble that dashing is safer than other actions. You flinch-dash, and then sometimes you get away, sometimes you get caught.Your brain's clearly been rotted by moviegames and Nintendo sludge
>>721426215Hollowcucks waited 8 years for that?
>>721425727>I feel like radahn prime vaccinated me against difficultyMe too. Had I played Silksong 5 years ago I would've gotten really worked up, but now I'm just "haha funny" whenever I die to a boss.
>>721424831>>721426215silksong's animation work for the game it is, if anything they are more readable because the focus is on key frames and breakdowns. if you don't know what either of those words mean then don't talk animation.more elaborate animations would just get in the way and slow down the combat massively
>>721426215>simple>readable>fluid>2 states: tell and attack>no fluff>no coomer shit where half the animation is the character showing off her ass
>>721419484I enjoyed it. feels like a fighting game. game should skip straight to the fights, desu. metroidvania was a mistake.
>>721426347they're not telegraphs tho. to fit that they'd have to be an actual animation instead of a single static frame.real telegraphs have an arc. a path of motion and readable pace.
I'm more annoyed with the jump mechanics honestly. The whole, hold jump to go higher shit sucks asshole. Also dpad on dualsense may be shit but pogoing seems inconsistent.
git gud or kill yourself
>>721426535>readablelol no. the "wind up" not only doesn't wind but looks more like an idle pose than anything.>fluid2 frames at 8fps is not fluid you dumb nigger
>>721426128I first-tried it with poison tacks and rune rage, didn't even see what's happening. Yes I beat the game
>>721419484Anyone bitching about silksong difficulty just showcases that they are bad at videogames.
>>721426215Adding more fluidity to this animation would either slow it down or be unnoticable. The animation has to serve the gameplay, and here they wanted a very fast swish. Attacks like this only become a problem for players who stick to the boss as long as possible without backing off.t. vidya animator
>>721426215I'll take it over deedlit if it provides a grand, rewarding adventure. To be honest, I don't have a strong frame of reference for metroidvania animation quality. I checked out Eigong from 9sols, and it's much better, but Silksong's fit for purpose too. I never felt confused playing it.
>>721426582Well in that case, I somehow managed to dodge her attacks despite the fact there are no telegraphs. I must be a fucking wizard or something.
>>721419484Some people's reaction time really go to shit when they reach their 30s. I blame alcohol and drug consumption
>>721426693>readable yes it isyou clearly see the pre-attack pose and it lasts long enough to react, you don't have the character making random poses before the attack cluttering the action>fluidonce again, it goes from wind up to attack very clearly, no random useless shit addedgit gud cracker
>>721426714based warcrimer
>>721426865>wind upa "wind up" implies movement and extra animation frames that simply are not there because the dev was too lazy to animate them.
>>721426949a wind up is an animation before an attacklace has a clear wind up, she doesn't just start an attack while standing still in a neutral posekeep coping, maybe get some better glasses while you're at it
>>721426949FAFO
I think Phantom is a bad boss, because its primary attack blatantly uses input reading, to the point where it makes the fight significantly easier. Spend one or two attempts at the boss learning how that attack works, and you'll never get hit by it again. Some people would consider this a positive, but I do not, as it makes the fight boring.
>>721427112Learn to recognize American body language. This huddled pose means "get back, you're scaring me."
>>721427102that's exactly what she does >>721426215the frame before her slash depicts her standing still like a statue not doing anything for a full half a second.there is no arc, no wind up. no movement of the weapon or her body at all and then the very next frame is a hitbox.absolutely insane cope to act like this is good animation or follows the rules set by the best action games in any way.
How can he punch? Wooooooow.
>>721427319like I said you should get better glasses because that's not her neutral poseher wind up is enough and it chains logically and fluidly with her next attack (low sword-> slashes upwards, then her next attack is high sword->slashes downwards)again, simple, straight to the point, no fluff, readableI don't want your coomer shit >>721424831
>>721427473>wandererfags vs beastGODS
>>721427319You still haven't explained once how people seem to be reacting to these non-windups just fine. My only olive branch to you is maybe you wandered into the wrong thread with your own tangential axe to grind about animation quality, because any shit you can come up with about readability and reactability is doa since people are reading and reacting to the attacks as they are.
>>721427112>fighting games are usually fast-paced>characters have little windup>instead of complaining about lack of readability, players analyze the behavior of their opponent and try to anticipate what they'll do>somehow, people can't do this against a simple AI in a metroidvania
Ya. Finally 100% and the game really is shit. Hidden areas are basically poorly told outside of light coming out of ceiling or some shit. Pogoing doesn't always clear you of contact hitboxes since your "parry" animation will be followed by contact check in the engine, unless you're using beast crest I think since it has bizarre animation, movement and iframes. All of the crests barring reaper and wanderer are gimmick tier.Hunter is basically useful for rare cases where pogo diagonal lets you clear away from some things better than others.Beast is trash outside of gimmick pogo through some fat bosses. Architect it literally, press y to win button. Rest are so late they're basically worthless, assuming you even find them if you only do first ~70% to 80%.Animations suck like some other anons are seething about. I probably will never replay this game.
>>721427676It's a great example because yeah trying to guess what your opponent is going to do is great but similarly to how you can't really read someone smashing buttons at random because there's nothing to read, you can't really predict dogshit AI that decides each action with a dice roll.
>>721426949Don't worry I got ya.
>>721427550enough by what?shitty NES standards?Sekiro is a lot harder than Silksong and it has smooth flowing animation.The lack of animation in silk song is not there for any reason other than the devs own laziness and lack of animation talent.
>>721427949nah this isn't even correct needs a half second delay halfway through the downswing
>>721427994love sekiro, but at least compare it to another hand drawn 2d game instead of being a disingenuous gay faggot
>>721427949fromsoft are some of the worst animators in the industry (at least it's actual animation but still).Sekiro has some pretty good animations but some of those animation, especially in other games have the most ridiculous, delayed, incoherently paced animations I've ever seen.
>>721428108OK here a game with similar stick figure art to Hollow knight.only this is animated at 30 fps while HK is not animated at all.
>>721428406>player jumps away during frame 1 of the enemy windupThe windup is more fluid, but the player in this gif still dodged because he anticipated the attack, not because he reacted to a windup.
>>721419484>the mobs/bosses are fast and actually telegraph their attacks instead of waiting an eternity like souls shit that's how it's supposed to be
>>721428593but the point is this game is well designed because even if the player didn't know the boss pattern ahead of time he would still be able to intuit the attack coming if he was watching the animation.As the game does what it's supposed to and clearly communicates the punch with a smooth animation for those paying attention.in a lesser game it wouldn't be about reaction. it would be about already knowing the bosses AI.
>>721428406looked it upit's fluid, but you literally took the only enemy in the game with a worthwhile animationall the other enemies is basically neutral pose + one limb moving when they attacknot even counting how basic models and attacks are, making it much easier to animateand still doesn't look as good or impactful as the animations in silksong
>>721424831>>721424752>NOOO WHY ISN'T THE TELEGRAPH 3 SECONDS LONGGetiatric, senile retard.
>>721429136see>>721426582>>721425662now what? it's not slow speed that makes a good telegraph.it's being animated.. with flow and a decent frame count.
>>721429023>not even counting how basic models and attacks are, making it much easier to animatethis exact thing applies to hollow knight. but they didn't put the work in.and that's exactly the point.
>>721429310>>721429387>mad cus badtale as old as time
shitters being mad because theyre shit at the game and then making up flaws instead of addressing any real ones is kind of extremely embarrassing tbqhkill yourself or go play games better suited to your slow functioning game journalist brain op you retard
>>721424831that's all you need in a videogame, you have like 100 more characters that need their animations so you cannot waste time with needles inbetweens
>>721429570>Complaining about the design didn't work>Complaining about the genre didn't work>Now they're complaining about the visualsgee I wonder if it'll work
>>721429387models in hollow knight are much more detailed than this
>>721428976I was still able to dodge intuitively against many attacks in Silksong and when that wasn't an option I learned to anticipate the attack.My takeaway from this whole discourse is that people are used to one thing, fail to adapt, or have bad reaction time.
>>721419484The tells are fine. It's not like you are supposed to be right next to them and immediately react, you generally have time while the attack is coming at you.I do think that some of these enemies shouldn't have had touch hitboxes though. Basically any boss that teleports, because telefragging feels awful.
>>721429570I mean he could have pulled it off if he didn't expose himself as a shitter crying over not being able to beat the boss first try at the start of the thread. That context makes it blatantly obvious that it's all just cope rather than legit criticism.Going to save the archive of this thread in case the faggot decides to try again with my advice in mind, btw.
>>721427668>You still haven't explained once how people seem to be reacting to these non-windups just fine.Same as old ass NES games.They're not reacting at all. they know ahead of time that when the character does that static pose they will swing half a second after.I'm not saying the boss fights are hard. I'm saying the animation sucks.
>>721429832>they're not reacting>they're just reactingHoly shit, I'm done. All hail king retard. May the crown lie light on your waterlogged head.
>>721429832>They're not reacting at all. they know ahead of time that when the character does that static pose they will swing half a second after.Woah... you mean games... require you to learn things...damn...
>>721419484>developers does anything>"artificial difficulty!!"kys already or just stick to the sims
>>721419704After a while you start to understand that there are basically only 5-6 kinds of enemy in Silksong and they’re mostly just thematic variations, sometimes with a slight tweak. Which is honestly fine, nobody plays Super Mario and goes>damn, koopas AGAINReusing the same enemy concepts all game is not a bad thing.You got>crawling thing that does contact damage and maybe charges you>flying thing that divebombs you>flying thing that dips back and throws projectiles>swordsman duelist with an anti-air>big fatty that jumps up and slams down on youBasically every enemy is a riff on one of those concepts, and that’s 100% fine.
>>721429653that 60 fps hand animated dust FX animation alone is more complex than anything in HK.
for lace there are ways you can dodge two potential attacks at once if you make the right move
>>721427994>Sekiro is a lot harderlmao
>>721423970baby's first impact frames
>>721419484>retardSo in other words you saw that youtube video full of poor logic and you decided to make a thread about it because you're stupid and you genuinely thought it had good points when in reality you're just a shitter and you're looking for excuses to pass the blame onto the game.
>>721430016cope retard
>>721429934That isn't on the fly reaction, that is rote memorization. Same way bullethells vomit effects on the screen and expects you to memorize the patterns of it while you can beat any decently designed euroshmup with zero prior knowledge.
>>721430351You're trying to tell me that DMC clip you posted was a cite read? comethefuckonnow.jpg
>>721430351"on the fly reaction" is the same as reacting based on rote memorisation minus learned knowledge. You're literally bitching about having to learn instead of being able to beat every boss blind first try. Literal games journalist brain.
>>721430351>that is rote memorizationcounterpoint: so what? Since when is memorization an invalid task to hand to a player? Why is it not acceptable to hand the player a tell and say>recite to me what comes after thisWhy does everything HAVE to be achievable by retarded twitchy play on your first try? Why is it mandatory that a game allow you to shut your tactical brain off and play entirely as a reflex machine?
>>721430206>y'all mind if I>pull my silkshot trigger
>>721419484Don't stand right next to them if your reaction time is that bad, retard.
>>721430510You don't understand I have to be able to do anything I want, whenever I want, otherwise it's bad game design. If I'm punished for it, then the game is in the wrong.
>>721430457wtf i thot i wudnt need to lern anything after finishing school this is bullshit
Do people really not think Silksong uses sufficient tells for enemy attacks though? The only time I've ever been frustrated with the tells in Silksong is>when attacks use smoke as a tell but also leave smoke behind so the screen becomes illegible due to the procedural way particles decay, Phantom and Last Judge both have moments where this can happen if their patterns are unlucky>enemies do their wander/reposition loop without a tell, because they aren't attacking, but contact damage is a thing so drifting lazily to the left IS an attack and it can fuck you up if you're being aggressiveI've played games that half-ass the tells on attack animations, where the cadence is arbitrary. Go fight Minos Prime and use that as your benchmark for>the enemy just holds a static windup and then instantly generates a hitbox a random time laterSilksong may do its attack animations on the 3s sometimes but considering your intended defensive maneuver is "move out of the way" and your parry skill has like 60 active frames, I don't think you're supposed to be Bayonetta-dodging the Very Last Instant. Who the fuck cares.
this is what good animation looks like retards
>>721431084I've never thought 1 static pose without movement frame was a good tell.In an age where we have very smooth and unique animations for enemy attacks, it's really pathetic.
>>721430196I didn't watch any youtube video about the game. I, in fact, formed those opinions all on my own.But by the sounds of things YOU watch those youtube videos
>>721431372I'm never so simultaneously annoyed and impressed as when I see mocap actors using their preternatural kinesthetic awareness to move around like looney tunes.
>>721431372No.
>>721429832>>721430351Oh man, you're making way too much sense. Their pea brains cannot inderstand the difference bwtween the two concepts. Good luck trying to make them see it
>>721431464You think this because you're retarded and you don't understand context. For a side-scrolling game having a character hold important poses makes them far more readable. For 3D it's the opposite because you need to be able to read the action from any angle and the best way to achieve that is to have a distinct animation rather than a pose.
>>721431476You're trying to tell me you're OP and you stuck around this dumpster fire of a thread? Of all the bullshit in this thread...
>>721431565Mocap actors who can perform on this level are amazing, if something annoys you it's probably the fault of whoever directs them.
>>721431678>No animation makes them far more readableNo it doesn't and it never has. it's just laziness.
OP is a retard the tells in silksong are even more obvious than the ones in hollow knight
>>721430510Your agument is weird.If an attack is so fast, that you have to memorize by rote, rather than assess it in real time, then that's *not* condusive to tactial play. That's actually twitchy play. You have things backwardsAlso, nobody is saying that you have to get everything first try. But if attacks were concievably readable, then they could justify putting in mix-ups in order to through the player off. Or, they could start off with slower attacks to learn them forst, and speed up to test the player's ability to keep up.Like the mantis lords for example. It's a great fight, because it's just slow enough in the beginning, that you can read what's happening, and the boss mixes up just enough to keep you on your toes, and potentially force you to make mistakes.And then it phases in a higher speed and mix as two mantises work together.
>>721432243>durr what the fuck is spacing and thinking ahead, video games are only about reaction times
>>721431829I only left the thread for a while, because I tried to screen record myself taking the reaction speed test. But the screen recording program froze, and I had to manually shut down my machine. Which caused my network to bug out, so I had to fix my network issues. Fixing my metwork reset my IP. Which put me on a banned IP. So now I'm phone posting.Yeah, I'm OP, and I'm still here. What's the issue?
>>721419484If you can't figure out where to stand to avoid getting hit before the enemy's wind-up even starts then you're bad at video games.
>>721432115You're objectively wrong. This is a core design principle going back several decades and many games highly praised for having extremely readable animations use the same method. If you're making a 2D game or something with a fixed camera having a held pose adds readability and emphasis. Concession accepted.
>>721432601if this isnt some joke you are DSP level
>>721432601You're bad at video games. This whole mess could have been prevented if you just dodged the fucking attack.
>>721432601it's generally bad design to make a challenge based on the player already knowing how the AI works.It's really not hard to animate a good telegraph that communicates what's about to happen even on the first time seeing it.this is why this became a standard.
>>721432798you are the reason why games suck now a days
>>721432798>I want games to have 0 challenge
>>721432437Again, you have things backwards. You're trying to argue that forcing the player to play so fast that they can only memorize twitchy movement, is somehow more tactical.Makes no sense. Every tactical game in the world moves slower than other games. Or even resorts to turn based gameplay. Playing faster promotes twitchiness over tactics
>>721432629>many games highly praised for having extremely readable animations use no animation.absolute cope. there' a hug difference between identifiable key poses still in a smooth framerate and straight up just no animation at all.
>>721432798>I want my games to not only tell me what it's about to do, but how it's going to do it, at what time, how fast, and exactly what I should do to avoid it so that I can do it first try every time
>>721429631cp spam didn't work so they're throwing everything at the wall
>>721432798>it's generally bad design to make a challenge based on the player already knowing how the AI works.Difficult mode: explain why.
>>721433016>retardHeld poses are literally one of the key principles of animation. This isn't just about video games, this is all forms of animation. You don't know what you're talking about and you're objectively wrong. Concession accepted.
Team Cherry confirms that if you picked architect pre nerf then you didn't beat the game.
>>721432969so what you're saying is that the "challenge" is based entire only shitty jerky animation and if a game has good animation it has no challenge.
>>721433014>Every tactical game in the world moves slower than other games.>conveniently forgets every tactical game is insanely more punishing if you're in a bad position and lose states happen frequently in a really quick time, not giving you a lot of time to react
>>721433084because the reason for animation is provide reactable visual cues. it's actually how fighting works in real life too. noone looks inside the other person brain to see what they're going to do ahead of tie.if you're just memorizing a monotonous strategy based on an AI routine that's not really skill.the skillful guy is the one with such good reaction time and instinct that he beat the boss first go just by watching closely and relying on his own skill.
>>721433231Making everything slower and reactable for braindead retards like you kills the challenge, yes.
>>721433231No, you're saying that.
>>721433523of course this requires that your action game is actually made properly.
>>721433523>"you need to provide visual cues for attacks">Silksong enemies do a unique pose for each attack>"n-no not like that"
>>721433523>if you're just memorizing a monotonous strategy based on an AI routine that's not really skill.memorization is a skill. Sure, it's not the SAME skill as you would use in an actual fist fight, but so what? Aiming a real gun is not at all like aiming a gun in a FPS but that doesn't mean that aiming in an FPS doesn't demand real skill. The "fight" is just decorative window dressing on the core challenge of playing a memory match game. It's Simon. It's Bop-It. It's allowed to be that.
I'm on like the low end of average when it comes to reaction time and I found most of the bosses to be very fair as long as you position yourself well enough to not get cornered. It really helps to keep your eyes on the boss and not yourself.
Why would you complain about something that isn't a problem when the actual problems are obvious (too many shitty adds in bosses, bosses being damage sponges, and the erratic movements+contact damage being annoying as fuck)?
>>721433624yeah not like that.this is current year. we expect real animation not static images.
>>721433221Post-release patches were a mistake. I am not your playtester.
>>721433523No one does this in the game either. I have no idea how the enemy AI works and I don't have access to the code it's running. I just react to the visual cues that tell me which attack is coming. In Silksong, you can put distance between you and the boss to learn its attacks and beat it in one go if you want. I don't see any reason why it's bad to have a fight that you have to learn the rules of before you're able to consistently beat it. Most bosses in the game have about 6 attacks that you can learn pretty much instantly upon seeing them.
>>721433084NTA, but the idea is that if you play well enough, then you could *conceivably* first try it. Not that you *should* be able to first try it. Note the difference there Don't miscontrue what I'm saying.But hypothetically, a person should be able to clear a boss first try if they're good enough. If they adapt fast enough.This means that the boss needs to teach as much as it challenges. Often when learning, the player makes mistakes. and too many mistakes leads to death. That's normal and fair. However, when the boss sets steep punishments for making mistakes while learning, then that's bullshit. It shouldn't cost two masks of damage to make a mistake while learning the boss.Learning in Silksong means dying fast, often, and unfairly.
>>721433779Do you have movement based vision or some shit? What kind of dopamine-burned brain do you have that 2D frame by frame animation staying still for half a second gets under your skin this much?
>>721433296uhm, what?
>>721433862you can conceivably first try every boss in both hollow knight and silk song they are hard but they are not THAT hard the lengths people will go to avoid saying they are bad is insane to me
>>721433862And you hypothetically can in Silksong. Dying is a part of the game, it isn't unfair, it's just playing. Taking damage is also a part of the game. The way you fight enemies in this game is by observing their moveset, which you can do by hanging back and paying close attention but will often involve dying, then forming and executing a strategy to deal with that moveset. This gameplay would be destroyed if every boss could be reasonably beaten in one go. Strategising and adapting requires multiple failures in combat, and the runbacks to boss fights give you time to think carefully about your performance in the battle. They are a necessary part of the experience.
>>721433862There's no boss in this game that can't be first tried when you have such an overpowered dash.
>>721434132I'm not sure I buy this argument. For the record I don't think it's necessary that a boss be beatable on the first try (you have infinite lives in Silksong, it's allowed to ask you to die, no matter how irritating some of the runbacks are), but for quite a few of the bosses that lock you in a small arena, it's very possible to be forced to take damage if you don't react appropriately to an attack tell, and if you haven't seen the attack tell before, taking damage is guaranteed unless you guess lucky.
>>721433758This thread is an open discussion. You can bring up anything you like. I actually don't disagree with you. But I think the problem I addressed is more to the core than all of that.Years ago, I made a few threads addressing the contact damage issue, and got called all kinds of shitter and casual
>>721433862>please sir, if you only take one mask the negative reinforcement will be commensurate to the learning curveThe third stage of shit cope: bargaining.
>>721434254>it's very possible to be forced to take damage if you don't react appropriately to an attack tell, and if you haven't seen the attack tell before, taking damage is guaranteed unless you guess lucky.This potential unfairness is necessary to provide the experience of a close-quarters boss battle. You could not design such a battle without this risk.
>>721434254>it's possible to be forced to take damage if you don't react appropriately to an attack tellIt isn't really forced if the implication is that you could have dodged it appropriately. This is like saying you're sometimes forced to take damage from a pit if you jump off a platform incorrectly.
>>721434254Good thing that only happens once (if you're not retarded) and can heal as much as you want.
>>721434254it lets you heal three bloody health points pure heal the literal only thing that's required to first try a boss is playing carefully
>>721434410Not him, but the idea is that you haven't seen the tell before so you don't know what action its telegraphing.
>>721433961tactical games slow down the game but don't necessary slow down the action, it's often the oppositeand for the record I'm talking about action games, not the shitty turn based jrpg you're gonna retort with
>>721419484Not reading your bullshit because the image is retarded. With proper positioning you can react to an enemy or boss' attacks even if you have very slow reaction time or the animations look similar at first because you can simply just not be close, sometimes you have to give up on mashing the attack button for maximum damage now in order to avoid getting hit and do more damage later. Action games have been built around proper positioning since day 1 and you simply are too retarded for them.
>>721434373Agreed. And I'm not counting it against Silksong that this is the case. I'm saying it's not fair to say "you COULD have first tried the boss if you didn't suffer from a nasty case of Skill Issue", obviously you have to eat shit and die a couple times to learn some of the bosses. Some of them no; bosses with extremely clear tells like Cogwork Dancers it's entirely on you. And bosses in big wide ass arenas like Seth where you can run to get distance and observe safely, you could argue that you can do a "study cycle" when you first get to the boss.But unless you just make a series of extremely lucky guesses, you are NOT going to first try Karmelita. It isn't happening. You need to learn the attacks and assess how to respond to them at a minimum. Even without developing the muscle memory to do so, it's going to be necessary that you eat it on some of those patterns so you can learn them.>>721434450Only if you know the safe places and moments to heal which, again, does require you to know the patterns. Again, I stress, this isn't a bad thing by any means, but let's not pretend the game is balanced in a way that it isn't just to win an argument with some retard on /v/ who insists that it's only "fair" if a boss can be no-hit on your first try.
>>721428085
>>721434783>And I'm not counting it against Silksong that this is the case.My issue is with the people who are. So many brainlets on this board who are like “it's bad game design, you must be able to beat the boss first try”. The truth is that these people don't have skill issue, but attitude issue. They are not willing to engage with the game on its terms and so have a hard time playing. I'm not particularly good at platformers myself, and some of the bosses took me quite a number of tries, but I do not blame the game for this.
>enemy has a weapon and different moves>you still get collision damageIt makes no sense. Why does Hornet gets injured by touching them but not the other way around?
>>721427949I see your animation design in Elden Ring and raise you the animation design in Ultrakill
>>721434319Elegant way of stating it. But yes. What's the problem with that?>>721434230>>721434216>>721434132I just don't think half of the bosses give you adequate room to adapt.Learning is too expensive at two masks. And the bosses themselves have bad tells, which makes making mistakes all too easy. I'm hesitant to even call them mistakes. Because if you haven't learned a move yet, the game is just taking advantage of your ignorance and annihilating you.It's easy for you to say "just stand back and observe. But a lot of attacks span large distances. And if you're too far, you can't read them off screen. Some of them jump directly at you with perfect tracking. And others teleport to your position. Still other take up such space that there's little room to escape to.This "sit back and watch" approach is good advice for Dark Souls. Where you can equip a shield, and actually stand back and watch what they're doing. But fights in Silksong are STIFLING.
>>721435390complaining about contact damage is retarded
>>721435390It's a game anon. Not real.
>>721434373Hollow Knight did it better. Not perfect. But better
>>721435448>Because if you haven't learned a move yet, the game is just taking advantage of your ignorance and annihilating you.Yes. It is doing that. It is 100% doing that. You still haven't articulated why this is BAD, though. You still haven't explained why "fail until you succeed" is fundamentally an unfair balance. You get infinite retries. The game puts your resources where you died to strongly INCENTIVIZE multiple retries. You are taught at every step of the process>okay, you died. Try again.This is the intended game loop. You find a new thing, you get surprised, you die. You come back, knowing more, and do a little better, get surprised by a new thing, and die again. You do this over and over until you have gone from student to master, and you have made the enemy and the runback to it your bitc.Or you spammed Cogflies like a shitter because you were bored.
>>721435390sounds like a balance thing. if you damaged bosses on contact you'd much rather just mindlessly throw yourself at him
>>721435448>Learning is too expensive at two masks.Boo hoo. Fight the boss once to learn the moves, maybe twice if it has two stages. That's just part of the game.
>>721434625>action games are tactic gameswut?Action games can have tactical aspects, sure. But actual tactic game are not expecting the play to work at break neck speed. And yes, turn based games are a kind of tactic games
>>721435390I've toyed with the idea in my head of>if you touch an enemy, it triggers an animation where the enemy shoves you and then hits you while you're stunnedSame penalty but sells better. But I feel like it's not really necessary for a 2D platformer where contact damage is common enough to be a part of the design language.
>>721435537And making the game easier to learn made it less fun to play. There are tradeöffs here. Decreasing frustration will equally decrease reward.
I don’t play metroidvanias for combat, I play it for exploration. Both HK and SS have shit rewards that make exploring feel pointless and the upgrade progression is weak as shit. If I want to fight bosses I’ll play an action game that does it better than this. Also the music is forgettable as shit. SotN has more memorable tracks in the first 30 minutes than either games have over their entire runtime
>>721435635It's bad because it FEELS bad.Any fucking knicklehead can repeatedly throw themselves ata boss until they memoriz the appropriate responses to the boss's calls. But that's fucking GAY AND LAME. I want to feel like I'm learning the boss in real time. I want to feel like there's hope for a win before the obligatory first handful of deaths.The first game managed to do that! The second game is failing, because they artificially inflated the speed and damage! Fuck you and your reddit loop
>>721435936Hollow Knight is more fun to play.It stops being fun when you get to the new bosses in the oantheons, because you have to fight 15 dudes before you get another chance to learn the new boss.
>>721436182This. Also, they backloaded all of the upgrades. So while you're exploring, you are very weak, until you're practically done exploring everything. And then as soon as you feel just the tiniest bit of strnegth, the game comes to an end, and they throw you into act 3, where you're weak again
>>721425260Reaction checks are bad game design. There's no skill, no thought, no strategy, just >are you young enough to pass this arbitrary reaction time check
>>721430510>why is it bad for a game to be the equivalent of someone quizzing you on a textbook on middle 1700s cheese making techniques
>>721419484>The tells for the enemies are really bad.Shut the fuck up you gay nigger. Silksong enemies attack animation is a text book animation; stop -> charge up -> attack.They are books for this such as The Animator's Survival Kit.You are such a gay nigger trying so hard to sound smart. go fucking read a book, gay nigger fuck
>>721439598I've practiced animation before. Not to any great extent. But art is a hoby of mine. I was mainly taking issue with the time. However that other anon in the thread pointing out the issue of lack of animation frames, is making a lot of sense. Still images really aren't sufficient tells. The stiffness of animation exacerbates the time issue
>>721419484lol i aint reading all that.something about tools bad or something?>ah-ha! fight valiantly, good sir!this retard would complain about fireball spam in fighting games.
>>721439938>Still images really aren't sufficient tells.Yes, they are
>>721439938Gayest nigger on /v/
>>721432798i agree.we should demand a holograph of the future movea holograph of yellow paint
>>721440109Why, yes, I would complain about fireball spam. I've been on the recieving end of that, and it felt awful. However, I take it that fighting games are built that way for a good reason. So when I cooled off, I admitted to myself that I just needed to get good or stop playing.(there were other issues too. The fireball spam thing only being one of many)So I actually decided to stop playing fighting game. My friends were upset, because it's not like they have many people to play with around here. But I had to tell them that fighting games just aren't for me.I'm more of an exploration/metroidvania kind of guy.The fact that you compare a metroidvania's gameplay to that of a fighting game, is appalling.
>>721435795It's a shit game then.
>>721419484 >boss starts spawning multiple enemies (that hit you for 2 of course) to so you cant even try to figure out the timing of their attacks
>>721419484
>>721440674I hope this is b8
>>721443220Why? Metroidvanias shouldn't be held to the same mechanical standards as fighting games. That's not a crazy thing to say.I want to play a moody bug game, not be a sweaty rog
>>721421735they also damage you when they don't fight back and you only touch them
>>721426215kek even nine sols was fairer than that
>>721426726you are allowed to have more than 4 frames vidya animator kun
>>721419484I feel like the game actually has the opposite problem. All the bosses have extremely simple movesets and ai, but they have way too much health.The mole looking guy that spits acid from above. He has 1 attack, there is 1 way to beat him: wait til attack finishes under platform, quickly short hop on top of platform, short hop and swing up, dash back under platform.Its not a matter of seeing the right move in time, its that the bosses are all 'easy' but boring>be consistent in hitting this boss 44 times>you may screw up once for every 12 hits you make plus the health you brought in divides by twoOK, I can do it but it ain't fun.
