Because developers are afraid player might not like their game unless they include 100000 convenience features, they'll give you a fast mount at level 10, they'll let you teleport everywhere with travel points, they'll let you queue for dungeons and track quests with minimap markers. That's why none of them will ever feel like vanilla WoW.

>>721892506
it's not just developer cope btw, consumers really are that way and don't appreciate why systems are the way they are.
I saw the mount shit when I tried new world on release. half of the messages in global chat were petitions to make them add mounts to the game, which they eventually did.
If you made a game with diegetic faster travel methods (aka boats, carriages, flight paths, limited teleportation between specific points) people would instantly flip their shit the second they realise that travel might take more than a second and demand instant teleportation to queued dungeons.

>>721892830
Sure but it's up to the developer to say "no, fuck you, we're doing this our way" instead of caving in to the pressure from loud retards.

>>721893000
the developer actually needs to make a successful game if theyre getting paid

>>721892195
People have tried "copying it" by creating custom private servers that expand on the concept and they were popular
The issue is that though Vanilla-style is popular it doesn't make $$$$$ in the same way so big corporations don't want it

>>721892195
They did, for years. Most if not all have failed. MMOs are expensive. Spending massive cash to imitate the king that already has a large and loyal audience is a financial mistake.

>>721892830
At least in vanilla WoW they made the teleportation conditional, someone had to get to the summoning stone to call everyone in.

>muh vanilla
>install 23091283012983 addons
Hypocrites.

>>721892830
This. Devs killed this genre by kowtowing to braindead consoomers who don't like MMOs, virtual worlds and can't appreciate the value of friction.
You're wrong on the New World bit though, that game was going to be a PvP, territory focused MMO, but the jump to theme park shit killed it. Which is why it launched nonsensical game design like no shared storage, no mounts, but still had grindy PvE and story shit.

>>721893142
But it won't ever be successful if they let the retarded MMO player community design the game for them, it's a paradox. The only way to beat the paradox is to trust in your design.

>>721893367
when I was trying TWoW the only addon i used was unironically just macro improvement addons and that one to mark down where ships/zeppelins are.

>>721893448
it wont be successful if they listen to retarded boomers who want classic wow again
XIV is the most popular non-WoW MMO by just being a retail wow clone for weebs

>>721892195
Brains too fried for it to be that successful nowdays.

MMOs have gone the way of the arena shooter, point and click adventure and real-time strategy. Just let them die in their sleep

>>721892195
cos its impossible to copy it? especially with today tranny devs?
when trannies tired to copy skyrim they made avowe
when they tried to copy bg3 they made trannyguard

>>721892195
even the original WoW devs admit that most of what made Vanilla good was an accident. You can see this with some drastic changes in TBC

>>721893548
Retard. The biggest MMO release in the past 15 years was Classic WoW's launch. Both WoW and FFXIV are only played today because of brand loyalty, so making new MMOs that play them is a waste of time.

>>721893548
It can be successful, just not the most successful. That's part of the problem, that every MMO needs to be the the most popular. As long as you're providing something unique you will have a dedicated player base. It just needs to be enough players to be profitable, but that's not enough for modern AAA publisher, so they listen to the vocal minority and turn the game into something that already have a dozen competitors on the market and eventually fail

>>721893857
youre completely retarded lmao, classic is beyond dead
launch is riding on nostalgia, it died out in no time because once people actually got into the game they realized how much it fucking sucked

>>721893898
I think the issue isn't that every MMO has to be "the most popular" but that people insist it has to be an MMO run by them for them and their own enrichment.
If a dev was smart, say, an indie dev, they could spend a decade or half making up an MMO-style game. Make it pretty moddable with a decent code base for hosting your own server, then license people servers or hand people free reign in hosting while selling the game.
Sure, people would pirate it, but if you put it up on Steam or something, you'd still be making disproportionate amounts of money.
This is already sort-of happening, just with copyrighted, reverse-engineered shit like WoW private servers. Imagine if someone actually took advantage of the phenomenon.

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Night elves deserve rape correction

>>721893548
XIV has the same problems of convenience feature overload, they also homogenized all the classes so you can barely even tell them apart. XIV players are quitting in droves right now.

>>721894180
The problem isn't developers in the case of MMOs, it's the publisher, especially AAA publisher. They will decide what to implement if they spend hundreds of millions in the game. If their dumbass market research determines that people want something in the game, then they will put it in the game, regardless of what the developers think

>>721894432
>XIV players are quitting in droves right now.
because they dont like the story
and its STILL lightyears ahead of any boomer bait MMO like embers adrift or pantheon or whatever other DOA slop was put out

>>721894137
Notice I explicitly said "launch" you retard. Classic's launch dwarfed everything before it apart from OG WoW's launch, but no shit it'll eventually die out, it was a solved game and every time Blizzard tried to do anything with Classic just made it more like Retail.

>>721895564
>MMO attached to the most mainstream JRPG series is more popular than indie MMOs.
Wow, it's almost like brand names have innate advantages.

>why don't we see any modern games that copy it?
Tarisland.

>>721897229
Isn't that just copying modern WoW?

>>721897464
Yep, but now it's obsolete because WoW is back in china

its not replicable anymore. it was a completely different gaming gestalt back then

no data miners, no influencers, no discord. peak WoW was about more than just the gameplay and balance, it was the community.

>>721892195
because making good games is hard

>>721892195
Vanilla is just an unfinished TBC. WotLK 3.3.5a is the definitive version of the game and the only correct one if you care about the story since it's the actual ending.

>>721897915
Wrath story sucked ass lmao
If you ever cared about the warcraft story you probably have brain damage, its slop

>>721897972
>Warcraft story is slop
It's literally the only reason the games are relevant.
>Wrath story sucked
Doesn't change the fact that it's the definitive version of the game.

>>721897756
It could exist somewhat if devs stopped making games where player interaction has no benefits, outside of looking high-end raid groups or guilds.

So how do people defend the fact wow is so overtly political these days?

>>721892195
>If Vanilla World of Warcraft was the best version of the game, why don't we see any modern games that copy it?
First MMOs are a dead / dying genre which gets no new players and the player base just gets older and older. MMOs have a stupidly massive scale and cost a ton of money and are insanely risky, people don't want to pay sub fees anymore. This is why we don't really see new MMOs in general.
Second, since the MMO player base is a lot older now, they don't really have the time to play something like vanilla WoW anymore. They're all 30+ with full jobs or families, this is why retail WoW is how it is. It's changed to appeal to its older player base who log on to do a couple dailies for 10-20 minutes then log out and then maybe play an hour or two on their day off.
Young kids today don't like MMOs, they like fortnite or roblox. Kids also don't even have computers, they just play on their iphone / ipad or maybe an xbox. Those games are also all free to play, a kid wouldn't even bother asking his mom to pay for an MMO sub on a pc he doesn't own when he could just play the f2p games his friends are all playing.

If you're talking about releasing a new MMO that will be as culturally impactful as WoW was at the time. You just can't.
But, the closest you'd get would be you'd need that MMO to be:
>From a popular series zoomer kids know
>F2P which is very counter to MMOs but sub based games are a thing of the past
>Non tab target gameplay, zoomer kids don't want to play that shit
>Released at least on consoles, kids today will never play on pcs
The only thing that even has a chance would MAYBE be the new Riot MMO. If the Riot MMO was called LoL online, was F2P, on consoles and played like Wildstar I'm sure it would be in the big three MMOs.

Two points. First, WoW aged like raw milk, noone in the vanilla WoW plays the same game anymore. The numbers are worse. The experience is also soured by the game not only being solved but also having a set lifetime now, this pushes social interactions virtually out of the game, guilds plan half a year in advance now how they will play through the content.

Second, WoW took an existing game and polished it for normies. This resulted in the same effect that happened with CoD and LoL and others. This was THE game for years, with news talking about it and a whole generation getting into gaming because of it. It's not some magical design that can't be copied, it's more that people's habits and nostalgia are a huge market force. It's a lot harder to make people switch than to show them something new. This effect is amplified in the multiplayer genre, because you can't have a functional experience without high player numbers.

>>721899668
WoW was the most popular MMO by a wide margin, do you think everyone playing was a kid? The problem is that every MMO is the same. None of them feel like a world you can immerse yourself in, where are all the sandbox systems? All of them are trying to appeal to players with systems that are done better in other games, that you can just pick up and play

>>721900082
Vanilla WoW's player numbers are insanely high considering the game barely have had any content updates in 20 years, there are only so many times you can replay it though. What we need is a new game that embodies all the principles of vanilla WoW but with new content and updates. Sort of like OSRS.

>>721900184
>where are all the sandbox systems?
there were none in vanilla btw
>All of them are trying to appeal to players with systems that are done better in other games, that you can just pick up and play
except raiding and dungeons, because co-op pve isnt done well anywhere else

>>721900402
>Vanilla WoW's player numbers are insanely high
legit like 50k people, thats not impressive
>What we need is a new game that embodies all the principles of vanilla WoW
except that would be DOA

>>721901048
You're missing the point, all the games you mentioned like LoL, CoD, Fortnite whatever have continuous content updates, new seasons, new battlepass shit with skinds, heroes weapons etc every month. Vanilla having 50k players despite not having a single content update in 20 years is a lot. Imagine if it had content updates.

>>721900995
Look up Fellowship

>>721901207
Its not a lot
>imagine if it had content updates
yeah its called retail and it has millions, 50k is pathetic
and 90% of vanilla is an insane RMT shitshow due to third worlders desperately trying to make money

>>721901324
worse than m+ so its not worth considering
also the first thing to come close in 20 fucking years. 1 low budget indie game is the only thing on the entire market copying MMO PvE, thats insane

>>721900995
There were none in vanilla this is true, but there was a community on each server, you knew others by name and whether they were shit or not. Compared to modern WoW.. well I cba even type it out

>>721901646
there are plenty of communities in retail, I know youre not good enough to be part of it but the high end community is insanely well connected
being bound to a server just means getting fucked over when youre on a dead server, which was rampant even in vanilla

>>721901480
If Retail WoW stopped getting content updates right now it would be dead in a couple of months, the game sucks ass and the only reason people play it is to unlock the new cosmetics and get the new mounts every season. Classic WoW would surpass retail WoW in no time because it's just a better game.

>>721892195
They try but they don't understand that it's scuffed nature is what makes it fun and memorable. Everything that tries to emulate it ends up a sterilized streamlined piece of shit.

>>721901725
I'm talking IN THE FUCKING GAME, not done discord clique. Knowing character names because people put hundreds or thousands of hours into to them and you would interact with them in-game, whether it be as allies or enemies

>>721892195
Vanilla WoW is horribly dated and you shouldn't copy it. WoW was a great game but people incorrectly mistake the joy of being an adolescent and experiencing the peak of the internet with vanilla's game design as if it had some secret sauce. It was a well designed game in many aspects (great music and sound design, good and consistent artstyle, massive, seamless world mostly without loading screens) but it's not like there is something secret and magical about it that you can replicate in 2025 for instant success. It was cool to play because you were a teenager and it was cool to do group content with other people because it was during the peak of the internet and meeting strangers online was still a novel and cool thing. It was cool in Runescape, it was cool in Tibia, it was cool in AoE2 and Starcraft matches, hanging out on the internet was just more enjoyable back in the day and you can't bring that back.

>>721901909
>I'm talking IN THE FUCKING GAME, not done discord clique
theres no difference you retarded nigger
having to login to WoW to talk to my friends instead of using discord adds nothing
if normies knew how to use IRC in 2004 it wouldnt be any different either

>Knowing character names because people put hundreds or thousands of hours into to them
but they didnt, most people barely played the game and quit before level 30 lmao

>>721901770
> Classic WoW would surpass retail WoW in no time because it's just a better game.
its worse in LITERALLY every single regard
worse classes
worse content
worse gameplay
full of shitskins
classic would never come close to retail
>the game sucks ass
skill issue, thanks for confirming you cant press your buttons

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The mechanics (very important I know) aside, has any of the clones even tried to LOOK like vanilla WoW?
They always try to copy the industry standard, not the vanilla one.
Maybe there's something in that.

>>721902020
>theres no difference you retarded nigger
But I'm not a tranny, I'm not allowed on discord

>>721902118
>full of shitskins
Aren't Retail and Classic both on the same sub fee? Doesn't retail have WoW tokens that allow 3rd world gold farmers to buy subs?

>why don't we see any modern games that copy it?
We did. For like, a decade. The problem is that every corporate bullshit game company that tried to replicate WoW didn't understand what made WoW good (including WoW itself once the original team moved on to other projects or places).

Vanilla WoW is good because it's trying to replicate D&D adventures and the prior history of RPG game elements with online. Things that Ultima and EQ had done, but within the WC universe. All the people trying to replicate it just went "Okay we need online, we need parties, we need dungeons and raids" and ignored all the fundamental things that made WoW fun while trying to shove other systems into their games to be "unique" that were just shitty in the end. So every WoW clone ends up being an empty shell of what could have been a better game.

>>721902118
Go away retail-addict, try doing something more productive like fentanyl instead.

>>721902294
>no argument
every time
classicfags truly have liquefied their brains playing that slop

>>721902118
>thanks for confirming you cant press your buttons
Doesn't retail have single button play now?

As profitable as WoW was, Fortnite was cheaper to make and much more profitable.

>>721902359
You didn't provide an argument either, you just said you think the game is worse, that's not an argument.
I bet you're on fent right now

>>721900402
Thats just Turtle wow

>>721903004
Essentially, we need an official classic+ server

>>721892195
Because WoW is one of the greatest games of all time

>>721902020
There is a difference. Friend groups always existed, and before Blizzard killed it with phasing etc there also existed a server wide community, which is what I'm talking about, that you cannot understand the difference really says a lot
The fact that you have no need to log in to talk to your friends just says that the MMO sucks ass

>>721892195
When other devs copied WoW they didn't have the resources and skill to make something as good. The devs who made WoW had insane resources and some of the best devs working on them. The game was ahead of its time and it's insane that it even worked.
Every dev who tried to make a game like that failed miserably making an inferior copy.

Now that it's easier to achieve things like this, the devs aren't copying vanilla WoW, they copy fucking modern WoW or Rust.
No publisher is going to agree on spending a billion dollars on ripping off a game from 2004.

>>721904637
>The devs who made WoW had insane resources and some of the best devs working on them.
Did you read the Warcraft diary? They had no idea what they were doing.

>>721892195
>If Vanilla World of Warcraft was the best version of the game
It wasn't. Vanilla troons got exposed by Classic.

>>721894182
Who does the best WoW porn these days?

>>721904202
phasing has LITERALLY nothing to do with server community you retarded subhuman
>The fact that you have no need to log in to talk to your friends just says that the MMO sucks ass
literally no MMO is worth logging in to just to talk to people you stupid nigger, there are a thousand chat programs that are way more lightweight than launching a video game just to use a chatbox
holy fuck youre retarded

>>721902175
Yes, there have been numerous attempts to ape WoW's style, and some flatout knock-off games that just reused WoW assets.

Gacha has taken over the MMO market. Genshin is basically a single player MMO with a much more refined money-draining system than the typical MMO, which is the end goal.

>>721892195
vanilla wow was a dogshit game that was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time to be chosen as every nerd's hangout game.
you can't pull that shit anymore when there's thousands of games coming out every day in an internet infested with normies and troons

>>721892195
WoW was extremely innovative for the time, even if there had been several other games of the same genre before it.
You'll never see that level of innovation until the next major industry crash.

>>721905348
Whoever draws female Goblins the best.

>>721892195
Because people love the story of world of warcraft. Its not the gameplay. Its the IP. I play private servers.

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The funniest thing about delusional nostalgiafags is that they in no way play the games they are so keen babbling about, because the game themselves suck and aged like absolute milk
>launch the game
>damn it sucks
>close it
>go on rant about how this game is so good and revolutionary (for its times)
you can count on your fingers the amount of actual good games that passed the test of time and no, pic unrelated, its not dark souls

>>721905609
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HOLY SHIT

>>721905507
When BC came out, my local internet provider (we only had one option back then) had to set up a special call center just for network upgrades because the amount of people calling up to get faster internet just because of the game were causing backups in customer service.
I've never seen anything like that, I really think WoW forced the consumer hardware market to fast-forward 5 years.

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>>721905390
>phasing has LITERALLY nothing to do with server community you retarded subhuman
what the fuck are you saying? You mean not seeing people out in the world, or forced into a shard with a maximum amount of people showing at a time isn't altering your perception of how many people are playing the game?
I'm also talking about retail phasing and server groups, where you can see people not from your server out in the world. You do dungeons with people not from your server you never see again. There's no server community because your server doesn't matter.

You used to remember people you grouped up with, whether they were shit or not. You might have had a rivalry with some guy farming out ore out in the world, or a shitlist with opposite faction players names that you would kill on sight, or a particular guild you hated. Now none of that shit matters.

>>721905390
>literally no MMO is worth logging in to just to talk to people
Wow congratulations on proving my literal point, If the game is good you play it while talking, if it's shit then there's no point in playing it. And why play it if it doesn't provide any kind of unique experience?

>>721905609
>Because people love the story of world of warcraft.
Anon, people famously skipped quest text for the entirety of the game's life, but especially during vanilla. The only people who ever gave a shit about story were autists. Hell, vanilla doesn't really have a story unless you piece together a bunch of disconnected questlines that people are still trying to tie together today (see: The Zanzil Conspiracy).

>>721905723
Classicfags are definitely like that but I would genuinely put over 1000 hours in Legion alone if/when a server comes out for it. Aside from a few shitty mechanics like the legendaries and more aggressive dailies, it had the perfect blend of the traditional social gameplay and the new QoL features everyone wants.

>>721905609
There's a story? You mean those little boxes that pop up when I turn in a quest? Yeah I'm not reading that shit, I played WoW from Wrath to SL and I didn't read a single word of lore.

>>721906126
They're doing Legion Remix soon, but that's not a "Legion Classic" experience. More just a casual fuck around sort of thing. It will have a lot of people playing though, so if you just want to screw around in Legion zones/dungeons/raids again, that would be a good time to do it.

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tranny game generals belong in >>>/vg/

>was it less about the game, but the circumstances around it?
absolutely the circumstances. Blizzard is a studio that only made normie-clones of existing games. They pushed Everquest lite onto a fresh audience that just discovered the internet. Blizzard never was good at design, which is partially revealed by how much they fail when they have to come up with their own ideas. Blizzard is a market timing specialist and they pulled the same trick with Hearthstone when all you could play on mobile was Flappybird or Angry Birds.

There is now a horde of mouthbreathers such as
>>721904637, who will yell some form of Blizzard-exceptionalism argument, because the businesspeople have gotten hold of the key years of their neuroplasticity. Why do you think the Simpsons are still on air? Why is the Alien franchise still being milked? WoW generated so much market inertia that even twenty years later, when the ball is looking rather sad, it's all still rolling somehow.

>>721906025
Sharding isnt the same as phasing you illiterate sperg stop speaking
Cross realm dungeons arent the same thing as phasing either

>You used to remember people you grouped up with, whether they were shit or not. You might have had a rivalry with some guy farming out ore out in the world, or a shitlist with opposite faction players names that you would kill on sight, or a particular guild you hated. Now none of that shit matters.
Except none of this shit happens on classic either, because nobody keeps track of names when server pop isnt dead as fuck
Yeah bro let me keep a shitlist of names from leveling where 90% of them quit anyway and I'll never see them again

>>721893467
>i
good morning saar we meet again

I want world PvP and I want it to be factionless. It's always people on my team that fucks me over by stealing mobs and gear from me and not helping with quests.

>>721892195
It was taking advantage from a massive succesful franchise like Warcraft, dumbed-down the mechanics of other highly succesful mmos like Everquest and, at least at first, got people to socialize and fool around before instancing, raid search, bgs and shit like that
Most copy-cats failed at various of that

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>>>/vg/
>>>/vg/
>>>/vg/
>>>/vg/
>>>/vg/

>>721906229
I'll probably hold out and either wait for an official legion classic or a private server. If I remember right there's one or two private servers in the works.

>>721906574
Oh you mean you can't understand what I mean by "phasing" and I have to use sharding when talking about retail WoW's technology? You can't understand what I'm trying to say, and only understand what I say and take it literally?
Well understand this: you're one dumb motherfucker

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>>721906962
>>721907136
What do you not get about this, XIVtroon? We don't read the fucking quest text. No one does. The story does not matter in this game. Vanilla had no story, TBC just straight up threw major characters at the player as raid bosses with no explanation. We do not care, at all.

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>>721907252
>xiv out of fucking nowhere
BUCKBROKEN

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>>721902294
>if a game stop gets updated it will..... die!
Wow.
Classic tards are so low IQ they twist themselves into pretzels defending classic MoP's bloat and features that are just prototypes of modern retail. Don't bring up fentanyl buddy, it's just friendly fire considering you are statistically this picture soon.

>>721907376
Retard, you are just posting the same shit that you posted in the other thread.

>>721902450
Push one button in retail to do 20-40 percent less damage (doesn't use major cooldowns), and healers can't use it at all. Push one button in classic, and you are playing at 100 percent efficiency. I get enjoying classic for the oldschool vibe and community feel, but dunning kruger classictards are just another level of subhuman.

>>721906353
Tranny mad that people point out that blizzard used to employ exceptional people. The scale and quality that they put out in 2004 in insane. No one left in blizzard could even make the framework to even start working on WoW. It's a game that should not have worked and it not only worked but it ran on normal PCs. The game was exceptional in art style, lore, map design, music, cinematics. The game was fucking insane, just the fact that the loading screens were very rare and reserved for dungeons and traveling continents. The entire game was just 4gb.
By the time they were working on Burning Crusade the talent was already flaking off and Lich King was probably the last time anyone with talent worked at Blizzard.

>>721907561
More like 10 percent less damage for some specs, like Destro. That's 10 percent less than perfect, which is pretty much what a mythic raider parses at. Single-button assist is fucking based.

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>>721907452
and? you see someone shitting on your troon game and you automatically think they belong to an even worse troon game that lives in your head rent free because "uh uh uh i dunno i saw someone else made the accusation".
seek help blizzjeet

>>721907698
God I hate nu-DnD races. Please please please stop making multicolored humans with horns.

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>sign social contract saying you are about to log in to a furry transgendered game
>furries and transgenders everywhere
>get angry about it
>spend weekends spamming /v/ threads

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>dev makes game
>players play it and have fun at launch
>players learn meta and start to minmax
>players who only wanna play for fun and don't wanna mixmax no longer get invited and quit
>minmax players now only have mixmax players to play with and it now start taking to long to form groups so those players start to quit
>another MMO dies to minmax fags

>>721907983
there's an easy solution: stop being a shitter
don't like it? go play stardew valley or whatever "comfy" (read: retard-proof) game is mainstream these days

>>721905723
People still play TESIII-V, New Vegas, Everquest, UO, Thief 1/2, Mount and Blade Warband, VTMB, Gmod, L4D2, etc. You are a fucking retard.

>>721906583
Saar… you have returned from your slumber only to mumble single letters again? The prophecy foretold this day. Tell me, what does "i" stand for this time? Is it "inevitable"? "insufferable"? Or perhaps… "I logged into retail WoW and saw a panda riding a motorcycle through Suramar and I wept"?

>Zoomers don't know about the dozens of Vanilla clone that all failed and crashed companies
Vanilla was made by 30 passsionate neckbeards that knew everything about Wacraft and worked for years. It's almost impossible to replicate this today

>>721892195
It wasn't.

>>721906946
They are fundamentally different things you retarded nigger
The fact that you dont understand the difference is embarassing

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>>721908054
>don't like it? go play stardew valley
We all did, thats why you won't ever get another good MMO again, hope minmaxing was worth it

>>721908191
WoW is the only good MMO i need. Still king.

>>721893367
I don't use add-ons

>>721908126
>worked every day
>basically no class was functional at release, full of empty unfinished zones and rushed dungeons
lol

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>>721908054
>Do Delves
>Don't have to put up with anyone else's bullshit
>Get Heroic raid gear and currency to make mythic ilvl gear
>This causes the raidtranny to seethe endlessly
In a decade, they might just stop making more than one raid per expansion because no one will be playing them anymore.

>>721908151
That fact that you expect me to remember what it's called when I haven't played retail for years is funny. Anyway that's not my point. Comparing the server community of even classic, with retarded min-maxers who raidlog, to retail WoW is still classic's win, this shit is irrefutable

>>721908126
It just goes to show that WoW-like MMOs are a dogshit game that are only carried by brand recognition and their cultists. It's the ONE AND ONLY REASON the only WoW clones who survived were WoW itself and FFXIV, another cult-like IP, instead of literal who original IPs born into an MMO like Wildstar, Rift, Runes of Magic, and the list goes on.

>>721908054
WoW Vanilla was made for the casual audience. Min maxing has no point, you can clear all the content without min maxing.

This is like min maxing Stardew valley, there is no point except autism.

>>721908305
At the time, WoW had one of the smoothest launches in MMO history, unironically. You should have tried playing Anarchy Online at launch.

>>721908382
>i pay a monthly fee to play a single player game
What an embarrassing thing to post. You thought this shit was an own? Christ almighty.

They already made multiple 'vanilla' WoW copies including Classic. Also, it was not perfect as someone who not only played during the era, but worked for the largest MMO BEFORE WoW arrived. I have great memories of WoW and EQ alike, but trying to copy them is not the way to "fix" things, nor is "take away all the the convenience features and demand tedium, because somehow I associate tedium with when I enjoyed the game", but that's not the case either. There are business concerns in that MMOs are big investments and corps today figured out that a new generation of people are stupid, will play F2P garbage with thousands of dollars of literally psychologist-tweaked shit to sell to you on gacha/item mall mechanics rather than a buy to play title or even a MMO with a subscription monthly that includes ALL the cosmetics like they used to be back in the day. This is the big issue from a corporate level, they found other people to exploit who will put up with it, and give them far more money, far easier than an old school MMO.

You need a game design with scope, scale, and world building in mind as well as a player base that wants to enjoy them AS a virtual world. Star Citizen is pretty much the best example of a modern MMO in this style because its built with all of the above in mind; for immersion. Designing for immersion is way different than designing for tedium for the sake of it or trying to get people to grind, or worse to buy/gacha/item mall the fuck out of exclusive things. I routinely have more fun with it than most titles these days. There are also other niche MMOs or those in development, Shroud of the Avatar for instance is a spiritual successor to Ultima, and Pantheon Rise of the Fallen is made by some old EQ devs and is coming along.

I'd love to see the days of subscription MMOs come back, and I stopped playing WoW at the start of BFA/End of Legion, but I'd want to see them improving/fixing many of the fuckups too

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>>721908515
>Stop having fun!
>You have to put up with my bullshit!
>My bullshit isn't fun unless you are there putting up with it!
No.

>>721908410
>im retarded but you should have expected that
of course, how could I forget that everyone defending classic is literally brain dead
>to retail WoW is still classic's win
classic is DEAD AS FUCK and has no server community. It loses on both ends.
They just annihilated realms in mop classic (the most popular classic version btw) because it was so dead

>>721908476
>How DARE you show up to Molten Core without a complete set of world buffs. How do expect our guild to get good parses when you half-ass your contribution to the guild? You are clearly not taking this seriously enough. You're benched for tonight's raid. Pull this shit again and you'll be searching for a new guild.

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>>721908243
YOU TELL EM SISTER!

>>721908305
>basically no class was functional at release
Regarding balance, it was already years ahead every other MMO at the time.

>>721908692
"World buffs" weren't a thing in vanilla. That came from private server trannies minmaxing the game for more than a decade, and they brought that cancer with them to Classic.

>>721892195
>why don't we see any modern games that copy it?
wdym? its been copied countless times, especially in china's mobile game market.

>>721908676
It kind of has a point. Minmaxtranny asisde, why do you pay to play an MMO alone?

>>721908690
I'm not talking about current dead classic, though it still wins in server community, I'm talking about when I last played it, during classic 2019 years ago. You really can't comprehend hypotheticals, huh

>>721908796
lmao
you said this
>Min maxing has no point, you can clear all the content without min maxing.
naxx clear rates during real vanilla was under 1%. make up your mind, are you talking about classic or original vanilla?

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>>721908919
Because I have fun doing it. I don't need to ask why, because I don't care.

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>>721892195

>>721892195
a perfect storm of circumstances that will never again coincide.

>>721908445
No, those two were the only ones that were relatively polished and kept afloat. Even some "IP based" games like Warhammer Online (which I played) sadly crapped out because it was not as well managed or developed as WoW or FFXIV.
>WildStar
Had potential but learned all the wrong lessons from WoW, catered exclusively to the hardcore raiders and made everything tedious and non-fun (housing could have been a major win, but they made it that if you wanted to move a bush one square to the right you needed to delete it and buy/make a new one to put down again). The whole thing was a clusterfuc.
>Rift
Potentially decent, had a complex class promotion and progression system but wasn't as polished and often fell down on the job vs other MMOs. When it went F2P it was lost
>Runes of Magic
F2P item mall grindy 20 kinds of currency combination of both Wow and Asian-style MMOs but localized through a Euro dev lens - the monetization fucked this one and it didn't do anything that others didn't.

Most of the other games of this era that were also-rans failed for reasons. Some were losses of potential, but companies chasing either wanting to be the next WoW, or simply squeeze people as hard as possible before they quit like every Korean MMO led to a lot of projects being more fad than passionate improvement to the design.

>>721908971
I'm not the anon that you were responding to, but he was right, you don't have to have fucking world buffs to clear Naxx. Nobody bothered with Naxx because it came out shortly before TBC and people were burned out.

>>721892195
>Vanilla World of Warcraft was the best version of the game
It wasn't, WotLk was
>why don't we see any modern games that copy it
Bitch they keep trying and failing
>How would a "modern-vanilla-WoW-MMO" look like
Like any of the many copies that exist but actually functional and with players
It's never a lack of vision or features, it's always a lack of players and care from the devs

>>721908445
Wildstar devs were literal retards who built a game to cater to hardcore fags that make up about 0.5% of the playerbase for MMOs. These are the people that devs should actively ignore. Rift lasted a long time, I had friends who played it off and on for years, but at the end of the day it was bargain bin WoW. I don't know what Runes of Magic is.

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It's embarrassing that you are still giving money and engagement to a company that hates you for being white, straight and male. Couldn't be me.

>>721908970
>2019
absolutely nothing close to a community, mega servers full of eceleb drama and nothing more

>>721909231
>>721909432
You're missing the point so badly it's sad. You can make a laundry list of problems all you want none of those games is perfect, neither is WoW or XIV. But brand loyalty allows fans to look past these flaws and keep playing because they love the IP.
XIV is the best example of this, the entire game is an embarrassment technically speaking, that netcode would make 90s games blush, the GCD is one step away from being a turn based game, and yet the game is still going.

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>>721909951
>XIV is the best example of this, the entire game is an embarrassment technically speaking, that netcode would make 90s games blush, the GCD is one step away from being a turn based game, and yet the game is still going.
Most people (at least in the U.S.) playing XIV have literally never played another Final Fantasy game. This is obvious because most of the players completely miss the references to old games. Magitek Armor mounts did get me to play the game though, I'm a FFVIfag. As for WoW, at best some of the players played Warcraft III, but most people didn't play jack beyond WoW itself. Warcraft I and II were my first two PC games, but that's not what keeps me playing WoW. There is simply no other game that feels as expansive as WoW does, my character feels like it's in a world rather than being in a room, that's the only way that I know how to articulate it. It's not necessarily logical, it's just a feeling that I have while playing it.

>>721909951
while true, there are also a ton of IPs that have crashed and burned in MMOs
Star Wars, D&D multiple times, ESO is apparently doing well with consolefags but its still not sitting at the table with the big boys, Warhammer, Dune
Final Fantasy is a bit of a stand out for just how low of standards weebs have but thats pretty limited to just FF, maybe Dragonball or One Piece could get away with similar levels of slop but its hard to say. Pokemon is about the only other IP I know that could make dogshit and get praised

>>721910325
>maybe Dragonball or One Piece could get away with similar levels of slop but its hard to say
Dragonball had an MMO. It didn't work out. They reworked a lot of it into the first Xenoverse game.

>>721909250
That wasn't the reason people didn't bother - it was because just to get to any of the raids during vanilla meant you needed to manually organize 40 man raid teams and gear up through each previous dungeon. It wasn't like you could just decide you wanted to stroll into Naxx (which had encounters that literally were unbeatable without Decursive until the unfucking API patch) because it interested you. There were tons of people who liked the idea of Naxx, after all it was probably the biggest lore-related raid to date - Kel'Thuzad was there, to say nothing for Mograine and the possibility of the goddamn Corrupted Ashbringer dropping, but unless you were part of a raid team that was AQ40 geared, you weren't going to get very far , which to even start that you needed to be BWL geared, which to start that you needed to be MC geared etc etc. Very few people saw much less finished Naxx not because lack of interest, but because of all the things necessary to make it even plausible you could survive there on both a gear and execution level. Its a bit like how there are a fuckload of people who would have loved to get the AQ scarab scepter and see the entire lore-related questline of opening the gates, but in order to be qualified to build the thing you pretty much needed to be the "designated" one from your raid, usually a raid or guild leader who got all the parts to progress the thing back in the day - AND do it early and fast enough that you were able to have the thing fully built by the time one fag hit the gong because you had 24 hours after that to finish it or else the event was over. It was a very different time and certainly not a casual focused experience and in fact, very much the opposite.

>>721910325
What? SWTOR is going strong despite the tortanic memes of yesterdecade and ESO is also safely afloat mainly from IP fans, despite the game being hypermonetized to shit especially for newer players (not like anyone has ever called Bethesdrones smart spenders).

>>721910425
>Mograine
>Corrupted Ashbringer
nobody cared about this shit until it got removed, this shit was exclusive to some obscure books and most players who only played the RTS games didn't even know said books existed

>>721910396
thinking about it more, its probably that FF fags are used to not having much of a game to begin with, most jrpgs are incredibly shallow and filled with more text boxes than actual combat, so xiv isnt a big change
whereas DB fans all watch anime fights and shitty text boxes dont come close

>>721910831
>FF fags are used to not having much of a game to begin with, most jrpgs are incredibly shallow and filled with more text boxes than actual combat, so xiv isnt a big change
14 is filled with secondaries though

>>721910628
>SWTOR is going strong
lol
limping along isnt going strong. there are tons of completely dead MMOs still going because of loyal paypigs

>>721911116
>completely dead
if it's making enough money to stay afloat and keep development going then it's not dead, chartsbrain
otherwise wow has been dead since wotlk

>>721911242
WoW isnt dead because it has millions of players retard. WoW does not barely keep afloat, it generates a shitload of money
SWTOR does not, its barely played despite being one of the biggest IPs

>>721911242
WoW probably has the most active development right now of any MMO ever. You may or may not like what they are making, but there is always something new being added to the game, some new bullshit going on.

>>721911441
you actually think a multimillion dollar company will keep servers afloat for a product that's bleeding money? come on now

>if you leave a dungeon early as a DPS you get a 5 minute timeout
>if you leave a dungeon early as a healer you get a 10 minute time out
>if you leave a dungeon early as a tank you get a 2 hour timeout, cannot make any progress on quests, mobs don't drop loot and your highest ilvl gear is destroyed
Would this fix WoW? I'm a healer btw.

>>721911664
yes let's reduce the population of players that actually contribute to groups even more
nobody believes you dpscuck. back in the "your application has been rejected" cuckshed.

>>721911603
bro original Adventure Quest is still online and that game is dead as FUCK
Keeping something online is pretty minimal. TOR is obviously dead as fuck

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>>721911664
>If you leave a Delve early, nothing bad happens at all

>>721911762
if you enter a delve it deletes 1 random non-vendor mount from your collection

>>721911758
>trying to compare a fucking flash game to an MMO
why did i even bother

>>721911870
keeping devs hired and servers running is the same

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I've been playing classic anniversary and literally none of this tranny shit affects me in any way.

>>721909951
You don't seriously think that people who were putting up with WoW or FFXIV's flaws were the ones
>Well gee I really love Warcraft or Final Fantasy, that's why I'm here
right? Not at all. Sure, an occasional cool thing from the series may make people interested or if they're already playing wanted to obtain that item or do that event in game (ie chocobo racing/breeding etc) but that's not what kept people playing. There were lots of people who played WoW or FFXIV who didn't play lots of other games from the series and vice versa. Not to mention TORtanic and others using some of the most recognizable IP in the world or my previous example of Warhammer Online Age of Reckoning (or for that matter, Age of Conan) that didn't do nearly as well because the games themselves didn't stack up.

>>721910819
What are you talking about? Those were the things that legends were made of. Just like building Sulfuras or [Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker], or creating Quel'serrar , Rhok'delar or Benediction which were Hunter and Priest "Epic Weapon Quests" in the style of EQ Epics, Corrupted Ashbringer was one of those things that was a rare drop from the already tiny bit of Naxx raiders would see, but the rumors of
>Did you hear the Ashbringer could drop?!
>Yeah but its Corrupted right? Is there a way to get the proper one? Its gotta be Legendary..or something above it? Artifact?
>Oh I don't know but I heard my MT talking about seeing a wild video where someone who got it went to Scarlet Monastery and THEY ALL KNELT AND BECAME NON-HOSTILE and talked about what might be the next step in cleansing it..
So yeah people cared, but the amount of people who were able to see it were severely limited , like having a Black Quiraj Battletank.

>>721909951
lmao
it's because i care(d) about the warcraft IP that i don't play the garbage nu-blizzard and their DEI hires put out. it's like someone took my childhood/teenagehood and shat and pissed and dilated all over it.

>>721912423
if you cared about the Warcraft IP you would have hated WC3 for retconning everything, Vanilla for retconning WC3 and TBC for being genuine dogshit nonsense

but you didnt

>>721912263
I'm not reading all that but yes, clapbait is why some MMOs are still alive. Number go up gooks now have gacha to play.

>>721912584
i'd bet money he's a zoomer who started with WC3

???
Many people tried to copy WoW. The real question is why no one has tried to properly copy RuneScape into a fully 3D game.

TBC sucked. Turning heroes into villains was terrible game design. The looney toons sequences with the Lich King throughout Wrath were atrocious as well. Until you realize this, you'll never understand classic.

>>721913128
classic also sucked, most of the shit came out of nowhere with 0 buildup but classicfags will deflect to only the alliance side onyxia story because everything else is utter shit

>>721892195
There were years of wow clones. They were expensive failures. Piracy, the strength of the PS2, DS and Wii and the long lasting dominance of WoW, Diablo 2, Warcraft 3, Starcraft and a few non Blizzard games, like CS1.6, Runescape and Age of Empires 2, all combined to drive under every PC studio or force them to switch to console, like Bethesda with Oblivion and Fallout 3. Online social interaction is no longer a novelty and people just do not interact regularly or sincerely anymore in online games. People liked the progression of WoW compared to the boring unstructured nature of deathmatch games like Quake 3. Now even the most casual game in the world, Fortnite, has significant in match and out of match progression. Post vanilla WoW spoiled people and they won't play an actual MMO because they now just want a chatroom with queued minigames.

>>721892195
>it's not actually it's most perfect iteration, it's pre-patch TBC

>>721892195
there's one thing WoW never got right and it is the reason that it was never a perfect game.
It has Pokemon syndrome. In that, outside of combat there is almost nothing to do. This is supposed to be a WORLD and yet all of the professions seemed designed to encourage MORE COMBAT. This is a game where people from around a continent can join and party up and at the end of the day COMBAT is all there is, people only get excited for loot because it makes them better at COMBAT.
People who haven't played the game don't know what "bankstanding" is, and if they knew what it was they would rightfully laugh at these people pouring 10,03094820394 hours into the game.
There is simply nothing to do outside of COMBAT.

>>721914627
>There is simply nothing to do outside of COMBAT
Collecting shit. Doing non-combat quests. Secret finding. Fishing. Fucking Crendor made a whole channel around fishing.

>>721892195
>Of course it's a product of its time and you would have to make many adjustments
you answered your own question
mmorpg of theseus

>>721914806
I have the Salty achievement and even though they did butcher the world and turn it into a raidlogging theme park nightmare with future expansionpacks, whilst it was fun, let's not pretend everyone was fishing. Besides choosing your faction and race, there is very little RP to the game. It's basically Team Fortress with how everyone is a metashitter with standardised load-outs.

>>721915152
>let's not pretend everyone was fishing
Yeah, most people aren't interested in non-combat shit in most games. That's just the reality of the situation. That doesn't mean that it isn't there.

>>721915323
apparently from what I've seen in FFXwhatever there is a vast potential of including more multiplayer non-combat games, WoW is just that zombified with PVP seasons and Mythic+ that no one would even think to add it.

>>721915495
>pparently from what I've seen in FFXwhatever there is a vast potential of including more multiplayer non-combat games
What sort of non-combat shit are you seeing in FFXIV that isn't in WoW?

>>721893467
>Took the Turtle Pill
YNBAW

>>721914806
what happens is that some people get so addicted to WoW that they start creating their own fun that Blizzard would've never even dreamt of, and then Blizzard gets all the credit for it.
Almost all of the WoW players of note were notable independant of the game and would've been notable without WoW even existing in the first place.

>>721915152
>they did butcher the world and turn it into a raidlogging theme park nightmare with future expansionpacks
vanilla, and especially wrath when Salty was added are both pure raidlogging
raidlogging stopped in Legion when they added m+
what the fuck are you talking about

>>721892195
WoW is terrible, the only reason it sold well is because Blizzard paid celebrities to do commercials for them. There isn't anything about the game itself that's particularly interesting and it looks ugly as sin.

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>>721899668
>They're all 30+ with full jobs or families
While I agree you're forgetting the amount of people who would neglect their families because they were so addicted to WoW. Hell, even multiple news nations were covering 'WoW addiction.' New MMOs simply fail at making the world immersive, not to mention they all focus on rushing to end-game as fast as possible because MMOs players are apes that only care about the end-game and have conditioned themselves to care only about end-game. So when the game releases the devs don't make an interesting world they make a skinner box that gets you to the end-game and when the end-game is lackluster the game dies because not only does the end-game suck the whole world around the game sucks. Not to mention MMOs filled the role of social media and people will only be conversational in the first week to try to replicate, but ultimately go back to their discords.

>>721915903
raidlogging in vanilla was a pshitter and classic phenomena, barely anyone actually raided Naxx in the original run of the game. WoW became zombified trash the exact moment the Everquest no-lifers wrested control over the game.

>>721916209
>WoW became zombified trash the exact moment the Everquest no-lifers wrested control over the game.
Good news, those guys are getting cucked by casuals these days.

>>721916209
barely anyone PLAYED in the original run of the game
most people just quit after a few days, blizzard has repeatedly stated this
there wasnt suddenly less to do in 2019 than there was in 2004, if you werent raidlogging in 2004 its because you were bad at the game (most people were)

>>721916551
it is a bittersweet ending, the majority of the playerbase just being chubby mums playing elves and not bothering with arena seasons or Mythics and the game slowly dying because frankly being a pro player of WoW in current year is excruitiatingly embarrassing.

>>721917101
They made PVP more accessible to. You can solo queue for 3v3 arenas and BG Blitz.

>>721916557
being suboptimal at rotations or farming isn't a bad thing, part of the reason Vanilla was so great was because people were still figuring out new things to do that weren't just raiding and bankstanding.

>>721894137
I went from Retail to Classic and I'm never again playing Retail.
The amount of comfy Classic has is unmatched. Everything is MUCH slower which is more fun. Retail is zoomer ADHD crap.

>>721917683
>braindead easy is fun
just say youre a shitter lmao
>Retail is zoomer ADHD
this cope will never stop being funny when plenty of boomer games like quake were super fast
youre just literally retarded

>>721917264
>suboptimal at rotations
bro its LITERALLY 1 button being suboptimal at vanilla means you have a learning disability
>people were still figuring out new things to do
but they werent figuring out anything, they were completely terrible at the game, and remained terrible until the game got too hard for them so they quit, which was around Wrath and Cata

>>721917773
I didn't play Quake. Retail is stupid. The story is literally gay as hell. Le stronk wimynz trope everywhere. Faggots galore. Bad armor designs, bad weapon desings (not all, but most).
You see someone questing
>Hi
>(no acknowledgement)
>finishes quest
>hops on mount
>flies away at mach speed
I even saw some people just hopping on and off on their mounts while questing to go from one mob to the next.
Absolute BRAINROT.
Jfc. Just chill for a moment.

>>721918162
retail is one step above korean mmo now

>>721918162
>why wont people give ME, a shitter, attention
lmao
>I didn't play Quake
of course you didnt, youre bad at video games.

>>721918457
>"muh hardcore" content is objectively proven to be shit that no one participates in time and time again
enjoy your dead trannyslop, literally no one is impressed with your MMO accomplishments

>>721918340
Yeah. It's quite empty overal. Mostly it's just a transmog collector game now lol. At least Classic still feels like it did back then. Retail has none of that. There's no feeling at all. Zilch.

>>721918457
>lmao
lmao
>of course you didnt, youre bad at video games.
Generally, yes. I'm pretty bad. I just like to immersive myself, not "be the best" so I can jerk off to my KD/Elo score or whatever at night in bed.

>>721918789
retail is crushing classic right now but keep dilating
>Generally, yes. I'm pretty bad.
you should check out a site more your speed like reddit
>At least Classic still feels like it did back then.
empty and lifeless? yeah, retail doesnt have blatantly unfinished areas like vanilla

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>zoomertranny argument is that you're "le bad!!!"
>gets BTFO by objective facts and logic

>>721917875
missed the entire point of my post, being terrible at COMBAT does not make an MMORPG player bad.

>>721919208
you are playing WoW in 2025, the chance that you're a morbidly obese man playing a female blood elf is 99.9% and the 00.1% is that you're a gay dragon blood elf.

>>721892195
Players want hallway dungeons and to instantly teleport evrywhere now. Even classic is filled with dungeon skips and cleaving because nobody actually likes the game

>>721902118
>>721902359
>>721907392

Bro's offended his game is shit.

Classic is better because it actually felt like a world, played like D&D (classes were shit, I'll give you that) and had none of the conveniences that murdered communities.

>>721905390
>whining about browns

Yeah this guy is a third worlder.

>>721921109
>classes were shit
that's why pre-patch TBC is perfected WoW, before you had your main shipped off to Space Disneyworld In Crisis, you got to play your class like it was complete.

>>721907983
That's assuming people exclusively played raids. There was more to WoW than raids or arena PvP. And even that's not true because only pan banging retards couldn't clear raids in WoW.

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I play a Resto Shaman and I like putting down totems and healing
Ask me AMA.

>>721907983
this only happens because the developers consistently fail to cater to the players trying to have a good time doing something else rather than what they are supposed to do

>>721921623
TBC wasn't much better. Warlock's ideal rotation was literally just spamming shadow bolt as an example.

>>721922306
Warlock was already a good class in vanilla, I'm talking about classes that were forced into speccing into one specific build to have fun and not feel like you were a dissapointment, like druids, hunters, shamans, paladins. It's been a long time so I forget what the issues were beyond that.

>>721892195
Because from modern MMO standpoint, it's a terrible game. Good half of the players who tried Classic™ regretted replaying their once favorite MMO. It is grindy and casual, people even play Hardcore version of the game, where they accept that their death will be permanent due to terrain bugs, disconnect or lag just to have a sniff of the challenge. And then they will try most challenging shit imaginable like pulling 50 mobs solo in an instance made for 5 people group. Because otherwise it's not enjoyable, even if you raid in the highest tier of raids (Naxxramas was cleared by less than a 5% of players - and it's still easy as fuck if you don't play Hardcore). In essence it was a grind simulator with a few side activities: basic exploration, basic trading, basic fishing, basic pvp and advanced pvp - but advanced pvp was really luck-based and the odds and RNG were really shit. So to have really good PVP fights like Drakedog had in his epic pvp movies, you needed to fight like 3-5 noobs at a time. Because if you fight 1v1 or 5v5 against low skilled opponents, it will be a stomp - not fun, not interesting. 1v1 against a skilled player could result in a one-sided win or loss: if he lands a chain of CC first - he wins. Or have a WF proc or something. If you do - you win an one-sided unfun fight.
But there is one thing that is good about WoW and about Vanilla as well. It's the engine, the system: the netcode, responsiveness of combat, how skills operate, scripting, ability to install addons, how this all works. It was top notch back in the day and is really good now. To develop such system from scratch you need hundreds of millions of dollars.
Vanilla is also good because of the vastness of the world and plenty of hand-crafted areas and details. Some zones are work of art, like Blackrock Depths. To add that much content to your game, you need millions of dollars and many YEARS. If you do that, and your game is bad - congrats, you have wasted a billion dollars.

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>>721922017
Shammy is one class I could never get into. I just don't like the fantasy of begging elementals for assistance. I like Warlocks, bitch-ass demons get enslaved and do my bidding. Death Knights too, raise some cocksucker against his will and make him do what I say.

>>721922702
Vanilla had the same problem tho. You couldn't really play fire mage because everything was immune to your damage, arcane was woefully undertuned so you could only play as a frost mage. Healer classes like priests or paladins couldn't DPS because their DPS trees were not under tuned but were a total meme, prot paladin was out of the question purely for having no taunt, shield healing didn't exist etc.

Classes were a mess with no direction or rushed out of development with no testing as was the case with arms warrior. People still loved the game despite that.

>>721923079
>>721922017
I am one of the best Cataclysm™ ele/resto shamans in the world, it's a simple class for braindead people, but it's so enjoyable at times. And you can outdps everyone easily. I would hate it in Vanilla/TBC though. You just replace totems every 10 seconds, it's such a chore.

>>721923049
genuinely the most fun I had in classic was griefing the pshitters.
>killing Brokentooth
>deleting people's raid buffs
>recieving mail from Blizzard saying another player remote-playing with 4 characters has been banned

>>721922702
>>721923104
Hunters were basically forced into Marksmanship at 60 because pets did not scale with gear and Survival is a meme

>>721920356
>using aislop to argue for you
lol

>>721923402
It's not really the gameplay that gets me, I just don't like the fantasy of it. I don't roleplay, but I do sort of come up with a personality and vision for who my character is.

>>721923772
>can't address/counter any point made by "aislop"
I accept your concession. When the same points are made by a person, zoomertrannys seethe and insist they just "get good". When a google with extra steps makes the same argument, they seethe and breakdown.

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>bad RPG
>bad MMO
>only popular because of novelty and franchise
>"why don't we see any modern games that copy it"
Because they tried and failed.

>>721924064
you are using words like zoomer, tranny and seethe, you have already lost

>>721924319
>still can't address even ONE point
I accept your second concession.

>>721900184
>WoW was the most popular MMO by a wide margin
That's because it was the only good one. As in, it was the only one which didn't constantly stutter, have massive latency, look ugly as fuck, have weird difficulty curves, etc. Its main competitor was Runscape which felt like playing a turn based game since you could feel that your character was moving block by block and the game was unresponsive as fuck.

And there were very few games released every year compared to today. In the past 2 years there's probably more games released than there were between Warcraft 1 (1994) and WoW (2004). Obviously people consolidated into playing WoW and maybe one or two other MMOs because there was literally no competition.

>>721923864
I dislike hunters for whatever reason, out of all vanilla classes I haven't played Hunter and Warrior. So it's understandable. Ele and resto are really easy to master though (I don't like Enha).

>>721923079
You have mental problems.
Never come near me.

Because white men got kicked out of Game Development and millennials didn’t go into computer science because there has been an invasion of white countries for the last 20/25 years, starting around 2004

>>721921109
classic doesnt play anything like dnd

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>>721925000
Fuck off, hippy!

>>721925090
then why is the game better now than in 2004?
are you sitting here saying non whites are better at balancing than whites?

>>721924436
not every Anonymous poster is the same person

>>721925507
>implying it’s better now
lol
Lmao

>>721923079
Ever since they added Eredar as playable I always wish they added playable Felbloods too. If they're going to keep adding literally any elves other than high elves I would have done them first.

>>721925214
Not every possible way anon, no. But it immersed you like you were in D&D setting, immunity to damage types, questing without any help but trusting your own wits or the NPC telling (Vanilla did have the problem of descriptions being sometimes wrong or just never telling, however see: Mankirk's wife), delving into a dungeon with a party, finding out secrets in said dungeons - that's why BRD was so popular - and so on. If you played D&D and Vanilla you definitely see the skeleton of it in it.

>>721925767
it is, in every way
cope, seethe, dilate
wont change the truth

>>721925781
>But it immersed you like you were in D&D setting
No vanilla was an extremely sterile world
You were immersed because you were 12 and retarded, its an empty husk of a world objectively
>immunity to damage types
is in tons of games none of which are like d&d, retarded fucking comparison
>questing without any help
yeah I remember that time my DM told me to kill 10 bears and collect 10 bear asses, just like D&D bro!
Oh wait, D&D isnt anything like that
>but trusting your own wits
cool fluffy language but theres absolutely 0 depth to vanilla so no
>delving into a dungeon with a party, finding out secrets in said dungeons
there literally were not secrets in any part of vanilla. There are far FAR more secrets in game now than vanilla through MoP combined
People ran BRD because it had good gear, thats it.
>that's why BRD was so popular
If BRD was popular they would have copied it going forward. It literally wasnt popular, SM was popular. BRD is just shilled by vanillafags desperately trying to cope with their game being shit

ITT: zoomers who don't remember the avalanche of WoW clones

>>721926117
You're a miserable man.

I played Vanilla on a private server when I was 26, so don't bullshit me about playing it at 12 years old. I'm writing this based on playing D&D and Vanilla the time.

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>>721926307
Which was your favorite?

>>721926398
Youve never played D&D in your life, WoW is nothing like it
>I played Vanilla on a private server
You could have just said you were a favela monkey, I dont like to talk to shitskins

>>721892195
they did
wow's success was not the game, it was the name
it brought people in to the genre that never played it before, and they played a game that was derivative from 20 of its peers in the genre
if you were an mmo player, wow wasn't impressive, but if you WEREN'T an mmo player then it was mindblowing
they successfully found the audience of gamers that don't play x genre/game, which is what EVERY SINGLE PUBLISHER IS TRYING TO DO EVERY DAY

>>721926591
You're not a victim of anything except yourself.

>>721926591
Stop LARPing as if you're white, brownie. It's not helping your case. I have indeed played D&D at the time you're just screeching the opposite at me because you're depressed.

>>721926660
>if you WEREN'T an mmo player then it was mindblowing
I was a MMO player and it was mindblowing.
You don't know what you are talking about.

>>721926660
What were the games that were like Everquest at that time?

>>721926752
i was and it wasn't, neophyte

>>721926729
You have never touched D&D and your skin is the color of shit
there is nothing resembling D&D gameplay in WoW.

>>721893320
technically that was a feature added AFTER vanilla. i believe they added it in with the first expansion.

>>721926838
8000 kmmos

>anon giving his time and/or money to Bobby Kotick monthly enters the WoW thread acting tough
it's all so tiresome

>>721926924
Yes there is, anon. The skeleton is there. I know you have severe depression and your autism doesn't make you see it. It doesn't need to be 1-for-1 turn based combat on a grid gameplay to feel like a D&D adventure.

If I need to hold your hand further about it I will.

>>721926996
What Korean MMOs? You mean those bargain bin games that only dumb kids play?

Not really a good example. WoW had them beat.

>>721926924
>"Your skin is the color of shit"

Show hands.

>>721927259
no, it's quite apt
wow was a kmmo derivative with a jump button

>>721926471
Rift was really good before it went free to play

>>721927114
There is NOTHING similar to D&D gameplay
>It doesn't need to be 1-for-1
If you ever played D&D in your fucking life you would know that its not trinity based, casters arent there as damage dealers, quests are scarcely a thing and certainly not fetch quests. If we're talking actual D&D its a treasure hunting game with gold as exp, nothing similar in WoW
and above all else D&D is reactive, it has tons of social mechanics none of which exist in vanilla. You cant parley with any enemy or change the outcome of ANY quest. You cant recruit followers or raise a stronghold (until WoD lmao) because WoW is not like D&D and when D&D tried to be more like WoW instead of D&D it caused an uproar that WotC quickly pivoted away from

>>721892506
true...
>>721892830
...and real.
>>721893000
if devs cared about their game being a certain way then they need to accept that they can't bend over to make things convenient because other games are. problem is that higher ups see a smidge of user complaints and make their lackeys make those changes. they literally can't now, the second a popular game makes travel even faster or combat even easier then games after it will be expected to get those things too. the casual player now knows little of game design, they either want their dopamine rushes now now now or think that traveling/repairing/preparing is not real gameplay.
>>721893142
there have been games with slower paces and still be a success. It's think of a popular game with something that takes time, lets say terraria, imagine if that the progress chain of getting material to make armor and weapons to beat a boss to then unlock the next tier of armor and weapons were made faster. if one kind of ore you needed to craft your armor were all on a certain depth level instead of being randomized it would speed up the game but take the fun out of exploring and taking your time to get to the next level of power.
the average joe doesn't think of that though, they see faster so they think better. someone in charge of game needs to understand the balance of making things simpler and making things fun, not everything needs to be a super quick jump in and out game where you get progress ASAP.
also there is definitely a market for slow games so success isn't that far fetched for a game like vanilla WoW. ARK is, or was before wildcard fucked it all up, a popular game and the rates for stuff in official servers are INSANE.

>>721909139
i was a young lad when TBC came out. and i never hit level cap until later expansions. never did raids back then, though i did solo older raids and watched my brother do the current raids at the time. i just thought it was cool to see the end of character stories.

I've played Wrath, Cata, some MoP, Legion, WoD, and some BfA.

Azeroth felt dead while i was growing up. everyone (including me) just wanted to get to that max-level instanced island. Cataclysm felt cool at first with trying to bring back the old world, but it just felt like modern patches on abandoned content, and only later did i realize how awful the changes were.

I played Nostalrius during it's big pop just before the classic drop. between Nostalrius and Classic, i fell in love with the vanilla world.

It was a simple RPG with simple gameplay, yet complex with how you itemize. things weren't just "go for bigger number". you can do funny things, and if you know what you're doing, you can get real mcgyver-like with all the tools the game offered you.

the economy was more personal, and not so stock-market-like. valuable items were both cosmetic and practical. people were interacting every where in every part of Azeroth. you needed groups to do quests even if they weren't labeled (elite) with big bosses and designed group fights like retail has. vanilla has those too, but also there were strongholds to take over, and that's just not present past TBC.

quests would ask you to travel, explore, branch, and get creative with the rewards. some of them required professional skills. Loot was sought after from specific bosses.

all the QoL things of current WoW, i do appreciate to an extent. tokens make itemizing a guild easier. teleporting to instances got you to group dungeon action quicker. flying mounts made travel faster and more chill (at times).

WoW was polished down. made smoother, felt nicer to run your hands around, and yet it lost the nooks, crannies, and edges that made it special.

>>721928171
>when D&D tried to be more like WoW instead of D&D it caused an uproar that WotC quickly pivoted away from
Those fags couldn't even rip-off Draenei properly.

>>721928368
terraria is not a slow game and the most popular terraria mod is calamity, which makes the game even faster and harder
>if one kind of ore you needed to craft your armor were all on a certain depth level instead of being randomized
but the only time its randomized is in early hardmode when youve already gone all the way to hell
early terraria progression is just get iron shit, then go fight eye, then go to meteor/hell

>>721928171
Doesn't sound to me like you played D&D.

>"its not trinity based"

Not exactly. At low levels the trinity inadvertently exists. You have fighter, barbs etc. being the frontline, cleric, druids etc. as the healer and everybody else as damage dealers due to scaling and spell availability. The picture changes drastically as people level of course.

Go on try to play 4 or so wizards level 1 in 2nd Edition or 3.5. See how far that takes you.

>"casters arent there as damage dealers"

You're kidding, right? Sure if somebody plays a caster that just negates an encounter then in a twisted sense of logic you can say that. But they're one of the archetypes that deal the most amount of direct damage if built around that.

>quests are scarcely a thing and certainly not fetch quests

Lmao, bro. Ask me how I know you've never played D&D without asking me.

>If we're talking actual D&D its a treasure hunting game with gold as exp, nothing similar in WoW

Gear, exp and money didn't exist in Vanilla?

>"and above all else D&D is reactive"

Well it's the limitation of being a video game vs a tabletop game. That's a given, but it seems you've autistically zoned in on that.

>"You cant recruit followers or raise a stronghold"

That doesn't necessarily happen in a D&D campaign. And oftentimes the campaign ends there because DMs can't be bothered to continue once players reach that power or prestige level.

>>721928376
>yet complex with how you itemize. things weren't just "go for bigger number"
lmao yes it was
its just the bigger number was hit, crit or ap. other stats were useless

>>721922017
BAseD

>>721924289
Ignorance is bliss
What really broke me though is seeing people spam "layer" in every global chat channel

>>721929520
on hit effects. regen builds. itemizing for niche elemental damage.

granted, if you're trying to clear raid content you need certain things. for Molten Core, you needed to stack fire resist. the fact that for high level gameplay that you have to sacrifice damage for survivability is an interesting problem to work around.

most of Vanilla is the leveling, and that's the best part for me. just interacting with the world. raids really are boring when you get down to it. dungeons in vanilla were the best they've ever been. long, sprawling, branching, and they felt like they existed in the world. you were actually tackling a problematic clan in their home environment.

one of my issues with the game has already been pointed out a few times in this thread, and that's the conditioning of players necessitating that they reach for endgame as fast as possible and make the whole RPG about running the same instances. everyone agrees that the world is the main draw of an RPG, and yet players and devs seem to mostly focus on that 1% of content right at the edge of a great journey.

it's a shame that we see little games that capitalize on the journey. a bigger shame that the genre that mostly tries for journey is survival crafting slop. multiplayer games anyways.

i see it as untapped potential, and i hope that a savior of mmorpg steps forth and give people that grand experience again. i think people will hop on that boat if there's a grab.

>>721909139
This is some cope. WotLK introduced us to:
>addon/weakaura bloat
>GDKPs
>scheduled raiding
>metaslavery
>DPS race/parse mentality (but most of dps epeen measuring contest was done via Recount and not external sites like worldoflogs)
>carry
>rampant botting
>death of wpvp
>minmaxing, narrowing of talent choices
and if I forgot about any cancerous thing that was killing WoW, it started there. You can ask Asmongold if you think I'm wrong, he remembers all of that shit.

>>721930323
>you needed to stack fire resist
Nope
didnt read the rest of your post, try not to spew boomerisms from pre-2019 when this all got debunked
to clear MC you needed like 20 vaguely alive humans and some people with a decurse, nothing more. Remaining slots were for make-a-wish

>>721930638
fair enough. guess im working off theory. when i think about it, i only remember equipping the +20 cape.

either way. like i said, raids are kinda boring. the world is the main draw. we need more games that give a shit about the world.

>>721930624
All of what you wrote, barring the meta already happened during the middle of Vanilla's lifespan. Not saying what Wrath started was good, but let's not be wrong.

>>721930638
Oh so now you're just shifting the goalposts? Actually, by the sound of it you never played Vanilla but probably started somewhere in Legion and you're now been seething all along that people have been calling your favorite game boring.

>>721929431
>At low levels the trinity inadvertently exists
Nope
>You have fighter, barbs etc. being the frontline
frontline of course not actually existing because enemies can just walk around or shoot right past
> cleric, druids etc. as the healer
clerics are there to cast turn undead, druids to cast entangle and barkskin
>everybody else as damage dealers
nope, wizards cast sleep, grease and color spray
>Go on try to play 4 or so wizards level 1 in 2nd Edition or 3.5
Ok in 3.5 4 wizards spamming color spray is about guaranteed to get something stunned and coup de graced
>Sure if somebody plays a caster that just negates an encounter then in a twisted sense of logic you can say that.
or you know, casts haste, invisibility or dimension door, some of the strongest spells in the game
>Gear, exp and money didn't exist in Vanilla?
Gold AS exp you fucking retard. Killing mobs didnt give exp in original D&D
>Well it's the limitation of being a video game vs a tabletop game
No, dialogue choices are actually common place in video games. WoW didnt have them because WoW wasnt trying to be anything like D&D.
>That doesn't necessarily happen in a D&D campaign.
Irrelevant because its a major feature in older D&D
>And oftentimes the campaign ends there because DMs can't be bothered to continue once players reach that power or prestige level.
Thanks for again confirming youve never played D&D, because the level required to buy a castle, never mind get some hirelings is extremely low overall. Hirelings can be hired at level 1

>>721901770
>it would be dead in a couple of months
Yeah retard, because retail players actually want new content, they are not going to play the same low iq dogshit content from 20 years ago, dumb n word lmao
Now keep paying blizzard $13 for your monthly MC run.

>>721930824
Nah, don't listen to that faggot. You're absolutely right. He's just repeating something he heard said about Vanilla on a youtube channel never having experienced it.

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>>721892195
back then the internet was only white hobbiests. now its full normies and third worlders

>>721902118
TRVKE NVKE

>>721923079
Thrall is just a huge cuck. Magatha does whatever she wants and she doesn't lose her powers, along with centaurs, murlocs, gnolls ect. dozens of evil monster creatures.

Can we talk about the UE5 slop port? Thoughts?

Leveling in vanilla wow with my own music playing and skipping quest text was peak comfy
Fuck immersion

>>721931219
>"frontline of course not actually existing"

Yeah you never played D&D.

>"clerics are there to cast turn undead, druids to cast entangle and barkskin"

You're not fighting undead and you're now a healbot with some buffs. Same with druid.

>nope, wizards cast sleep, grease and color spray

Some enemies are immune or have resisted and your pussy ass 1d4 health is done. You need that frontline for this very reason. And actually going by what you said earlier those spells won't help you against a dude with a crossbow who can just ignore almost all of the aforementioned spells.

>"Gold AS exp you fucking retard. Killing mobs didnt give exp in original D&D"

God you're full of shit. Mobs gave exp.

>"No, dialogue choices are actually common place in video games. WoW didnt have them because WoW wasnt trying to be anything like D&D."

Oh so all it takes is having dialogue choices? That is so shallow and narrowminded.

>"Irrelevant because its a major feature in older D&D"

Sure, but they were rarely used.

>"Thanks for again confirming youve never played D&D, because the level required to buy a castle, never mind get some hirelings is extremely low overall. Hirelings can be hired at level 1"

Lmao, no.

It seems to me you've just picked up shit by osmosis on /tg/ without ever having played D&D. All of this is wrong.

>>721931160
Its not shifting the goal posts
Gearing AP, Crit and Hit was all you cared about in classic
Namedropping Fire res is retarded and embarrassing, because 2019 classic already proved you absolutely did not need to care about shit like resist and should just keep pumping hit and crit
All of the standout items that punch above their level do so because they give hit or crit that isnt available elsewhere

>>721931251
shut the fuck up retard
SoD had to put in a hard pass-fail fire res check and massively buff boss fire damage to get people to actually gear it
It was 100% worthless in vanilla. Crippling your dps instead of making your healers play better is never the right decision

>>721931862
You're just repeating shit you've heard on Youtube and on /tg/.

Go actually play Vanilla once in your life, thanks.

>>721931598
What is there to discuss? Looks terrible and half-assed, like everything turtle does

>>721928842
>terraria is not a slow game
yeah it is. it's designed for you to mine, explore your world, build homes for NPCs, gather ingredients for crafting, build other structures like an arena for bosses or a bridge to cross gaps or a sky bridge for killing wyverns and harpies, and overall play around in a sandbox because it's a sandbox game. all of that takes time.
>the only time is randomized its randomized is in early hardmode
the three wall of flesh ores you get? yeah those are set at certain levels you're right i forgot, but chlorophyte after it is all over your jungle and needs time to grow and other materials you need for crafts are scattered around in a harder world requiring you to go slow again until you're prepped to deal with all the new baddies. getting crystals in underground hallow or farming drops from enemies are randomized in how much they spawn and how much they drop.
terraria is absolutely a slow game by design, you can always speed run it and get the bare minimums for bosses but that's true for literally any game. you wouldn't call a minecraft a fast game because some people can get to the ender dragon and kill it within an hour or skyrim because you only did the main quests and nothing else. if we're to define a game by how the devs designed it then terraria is a slow game, if we're going by the player base the it's still a slow game because on average people explore and build and just play for fun.
>calamity
it's a mod for people for want to play a certain way, nice but not saying anything. I played it earlier this year and it was harder but it didnt really have anything making it faster to me. i fought the bosses and found the modded stuff at the same pace as finding vanilla stuff.

>>721931849
>You're not fighting undead
great then the wizards sleep will land
gg ez
>Some enemies are immune or have resisted
thats why there are 4 all with sky high initiative and DC.
>And actually going by what you said earlier those spells won't help you against a dude with a crossbow
Luckily a wizard with mage armor and a little dex has as much AC as a fighter
But thanks for proving that a frontline does fuck all. Almost like WoW having aggro mechanics is a massive insane shift away from how D&D works
>who can just ignore almost all of the aforementioned spells.
sleep has a 110ft range in 3.5 btw
>Oh so all it takes is having dialogue choices?
pretty low fucking bar that WoW can't clear. ANY level of reactivity and choice would be nice but of course vanilla cant deliver that
>Sure, but they were rarely used.
again, option being there and a notable feature means lacking it is a huge departure from D&D
>Lmao, no.
yes retard
it costs a few GP to hire a hireling in b/x

>>721932818
"thats why there are 4 all with sky high initiative and DC."

Not gonna happen with random stat rolls.

>"Luckily a wizard with mage armor and a little dex has as much AC as a fighter"

lmao, no.

>"sleep has a 110ft range in 3.5 btw"

Assuming you even have line of sight. They still resist and you're fucked. Even assuming all of them are within 10 feet of another.

The problem is you haven't played Vanilla and you're lying through your teeth the entire time. It's like D&D because it has, despite its limitations, the feel and similar playstyle NOT identical to it.

>>721931160
>already happened during the middle of Vanilla's lifespan
lmao no it did not, Vanilla and Classic are two different games. In fact, the GDKP MINUS meme became popular because people thought it was ridiculous to treat WoW raiding like that.
>wpvp died during Vanilla
lol
>Asmongold
that guy has played so much retail WoW his version of what WoW was is solely based on a Chinese Whispers of his own recollections, he's right that people weren't as good at the game but that's about it

>>721933439
World PvP did die the moment battlegrounds were introduced. Its popularity was greatly exaggerated. DKP was absolutely a thing in Vanilla, it was necessary.

>>721933275
>Not gonna happen with random stat rolls.
Im sorry youve never played 3.5
>Assuming you even have line of sight.
which you do if hes shooting you with a crossbow retard
>the feel and similar playstyle
there is no similar playstyle
everything youre arguing about right now isnt something that will happen in vanilla
in vanilla the ranged enemy will attack whatever has aggro, not focus casters
in vanilla the mage will just spam blizzard aoe on the enemies which can only helplessly walk forward towards whatever has aggro

>>721933747
The scene where I am people always roll for their stats, makes it interesting.

"which you do if hes shooting you with a crossbow retard"

He's hidden behind cover, good luck.

I've already said what makes Vanilla similar to a D&D adventure. You're obsessed with aggro and don't see the forest for the trees.

I hope your depression gets better, anon.

>>721933694
>no no it did die
you are looking at WoW through the classic lens of "everyone is level 60 bankstanding all the time", it wasn't like that.
Only until ALL of the level 70s were shoved into Outland and had the ability to get on flying mounts and just AFK in the air, did it die.

>retail is better than vanilla/tbc/wotlk
The mother of all bad opinions

>>721934921
MoP was better than Wrath, you know I'm right
>waiting around for Ulduar
>waiting around for Icecrown Citadel
>no new races, just a few likeable factions and an unloveable wasteland outside of Grizzly Hills

>>721934921
Retail should be worse but classic is unbearable with the state of the community and all the changes they've made

>>721908119
He’s a brain damaged fat ass who lurks every blizzard thread

>>721933694
>>721933439
I meant GDKP, not DKP. It's the most popular form of raiding right now in Classic™. It's when you buy gold with real $$$ and then bid gold in raids. This method of raiding has killed off pug raiding scene and destroyed a lot of guilds.

>>721906030
>Zanzil
Forgot about that lil nigga

>>721935283
I know you’re wrong, faggot. Panda is when the game went to shit. Corny cartoon raids and shard cross-realm had been solidified, that’s when the playerbase became utter shite and lost millions of the OG players. The subhumans who started playing in MoP should be killed on sight for being brown

>>721892195
It's not easy to make a great video game even if you copy shamelessly. A great video game is born out of such a long list of nailed details that you need luck to succeed.

Not to mention that Vanilla WoW required certain social requirements from the outside world that no longer exist.

>>721936537
>muh faggot, muh brown
the game was unserious ever since it decided Horde Blood Elves needed to look like supermodels, and MoP was the best unserious expansion pack.

>>721936537
Wrong, stop blaming brown people for white developers decisions

How do I play vanilla WoW in 2025? Do I have to fork over money to Bobby or can I pirate it somehow?

>>721938430
>Bobby
The company was bought by Microshit. You have to give money to King Poo.

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>>721909139
>Vanilla is the biggest time sink out of any MMO
Stopped reading there, it takes like 240 hours to get to 60 in Vanilla, that's like 1-99 in two or three skills in Runescape and there's over 20 skills in that game.

>>721892195
it's a miracle game
neither Blizzard nor anyone else could recreate its magic

>>721938582
are you 5

>>721894182
i wish there were more games for this feel

>>721939297
People that young haven't learned to hate the jeet.

>>721932278
i agree that's it, i want more people to shit on it lol

As a retailgawd I would love to play classic+

>>721892195
Let's not forget that the world of Warcraft was built up over like a decade before this.. It's actually an engaging world with memorable characters and interesting locations.

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>>721892195
WHEN IS THE TBC CLASSIC SERVER???

>>721914627
Exploration was a thing in Vanilla.

I spent nights walljumping around the world trying to find new places.

Of course they patched jumping and later flying mounts were added.

>>721892506
And they are right

>>721892195
I played WoW for the first time with Shadowlands. Then Nost when that was around. Then Classic and now modern.

Nost/Vanilla IS the best version of WoW and I can clearly explain why
1. The content is based around the 1 to 60 progression, not end game
2. The zones are exceptionally well made graphically and hold up even to today, the artistic style is timeless
3. The quests within the zones are well made, being often clumped together in an expected pathway of go to safe area, collect a bunch of quests, explore and find more in those areas, repeat
4. Combat is hard, not in the here is a perfect order to must press way but in a if you pull more than 1 mob you're going to die, and you're continuously questing in areas where mob density is high with patrols meaning you do frequently get killed
5. Many of the quests are specifically designed to force you to play with randoms, such as Hogger, you can solo it if you overlevel but its sub optimal so people just group up
6. Dungeons require some commitment and effort to organise but the rewards (in gear and leveling) is huge, even one run can put you miles ahead of your friend who isn't running them, it makes them feel rewarding and unique they're not a auto-queue and then progress infinitely button like modern
7. Class identity is strong. The difference between being a Mage, Paladin or Druid is giant. In your ability to progress, the speed, what you can and can't solo, situations you dominate in and situations you suck in, ect.

So yeah there you go. That's how and why vanilla is the best MMO. And I can say that because I am not blinded by nostalgia or childhood I played them in my late 20s. Can modern devs recreate this? Of course. Will they? No it requires a godlike art team coming up with a unique artistic style and commitments to gameplay ideas which are now considered risky/dated.

>>721938813
Vanilla always was a glorified chatroom. Its just zooms and neolibs who are insufferable, as they never had friends. The idea for them having to group up with others makes gives them anxiety attack, and a lot of these play MMOs solo.
There will never be a good mmorpg ever again, and even if by some chance it would exist the playerbase would ruin it, just like they fucked up classic. The cool dude with a backwards baseball cap you played with is now either a tranny collecting mounts or a fat retard selling runs to said trannies, with nothing to his name. Everyone else is a chinese bot.

>>721941346
I remember buying the the aotc mount for bfa. The whole thing felt so weird that I swore I'd never do it again, like I'd discovered a part of the player base I was better off not knowing
Never used the mount since

>>721941686
the only thing I agree with that post is Wotlk being good, because it was still the web1.0 community. even if it brought shit with it, it was still warcraft.
Cata was now Cata was web2.0, and I specifically remember how many guilds just died out and the solo mmo player became a thing. WoD was the absolute last hurrah, to put the train back on the track but it failed miserably. Chinese money dried up, overton window shifted IRL even harder and the ones who belong to padded rooms became the core playerbase.
Its sad but it was inevitable.

>>721915663
What is the origin of the turtle tranny meme? I've been on Ambershire for a week now and haven't seen a single person even mention trannies, world chat is mostly about niggers and jews when GMs aren't active.

>>721898848
wdym

>>721900995
>co-op pve isnt done well anywhere else
in MMOs at least, there are plenty of coop pve games with a 4 player squad.