Why can't gamers comprehend this?
I don't know
>>722065147>No but you see it's only inventory space so I don't have to go back to town 40 times that way I only go back 15 haha what are you "winning" haha lemao this isn't even PvP what are you "winning" bro it's just more stuff but not "better" stuff hahaThe "it isn't even PvP" fucking kills me manYeah thanks, gachas are not p2w, excellent
>>722065147If a game has any kind of microtransactions then I will not play it.Why can't shills comprehend this?
>>722065147>cosmetics apologistWalling cosmetics behind paywalls is also p2w, I don't care if it's not "progression".
>"dude the game is not P2W because you can get the same items as F2P">"you just take longer to get it, but the game is not PW2 it's freemium"
>>722065147So any game with a cash shop that sells more than skins is pay to win?
>>722066835That counts as P2W. But stuff like Space Marine 2 and Diablo 4 only have cosmetics for purchase, but faggots love to whine about that.
>>722065473yes. it kills you because you still can't refute the definition of english words no matter how much you want to twist them to mean what you want them to mean. tranny logic.
>>722066947Might be because those are full priced games and still have that aids.
>"What's wrong with P2W?"
>>722065147Cosmetics that grant you an advantages either by making things more clear for you or vice versa in a pvp game more obscure for the enemy can be p2w as well.
>>722068827because people dont want to admit their achievements are because of shekels
All aspects of a game beyond the start menu have to do with progression. Fuck off with this dishonest faggotry.
>>722069046>can enjoy the game and all the mechanics have to offer for the purchase price>cosmetics for whales to help fund ongoing content>faggots get mad because they MUST HAVE THOSE COSMETICS BECAUSE THEY'RE IMPORTANT REEEEEEEEE
>>722065147yea, it's really as simple as thatthere's some edge cases like sometimes some skins being more difficult to see and shit like that tooproblem is that ship has long since sailed and a lot of people are ok with games being like that
>>722069286>help ongoing developmentAnon, that's why the game is full price. You're just being exploited for candy.
>>722069192This only ever happened in Fortnite thoughbeit.
>>722069392DotA 2 had some questionable cosmetics as well.
>>722065147For the same reason they call any game that is nothing like rogue a roguelike: gamers are genuinely retarded.
fixed
>>722069589and of course I fuck up the most important word
genres are meaninglessjust look at musicfags. it can't just be "rock" it has to be "colombiancore gutter metal"
>>722069369No, the price of the game covers the game. The game stops selling very quickly, no matter how popular it is. Ongoing development is handled with recurring money. The best way to handle this is through non-mechanical transactions in non-MMO games, and subscriptions in MMOs (this covers non-expansion content and infrastructure. expansions are paid for by the upfront cost like the main game).
there's still a difference between pay to win and pay to skip
>>722069589>>722069615you can delete your posts lil bro
>>722069890in my 19 years here i've never been able to delete a post
>>722069660Funny, because they also charge a subscription, and charge for expansion packs, and for the cosmetics, and battle passes, with some of those costing the same as the whole game or more.
Does buying fortnite skins to not get called a poorfag by your friends count as p2wPretty sure you have kids getting bullied for not having the latest skin or whatever nowadays
>>722070063Please give an example.
>>722065473>you can complete the game faster so it's p2wAre you a speedrun tranny or something
>>722065147>>722069589Warframe lets you pay to skip the grind, or pay to skip waiting 3 days for your shit to build after the grindIs it pay 2 win?
>>722070178Yes, by definition. If paying money gives you any advantage, it's pay to win.
>>722069252achievements don't exist. It's an illusory concept
>>722069660>No, the price of the game covers the gameNo, the price of the game covers the game and new projects. If it were any other way, gaming as a medium would've died in its infancy.
>>722070031What a sad existence. Don't get depressed now. At least you tried.
>>722070224In the sense that it pays the investors, and they have money to reinvest, but it's still a separate project. It's not like>Quake made this much money, so we set aside a percentage of it for Quake 2It's like>Quake made this much money, and we're all richer. Should we fund this Quake 2 idea?
>>722070178Yes.
>>722069442I only heard people complain about Fortnite though.
>>722066947Who asked you?
>>722070223then why not just cheat in every game, just go full aimbot, get a cronus max
At this point it's clearly just a coping mechanism. A game being P2W doesn't immediately means it's bad, and there are obvious levels to how bad it is.But "fans" of a game will vehemently scream and kick and die on the hill that their ingame purchases don't count "and it's not really P2W because this and this and this and OTHER game is worse is actually P2W!"If there is ever an option to spend more money that benefits the player in any way, it's P2W. Just accept the branding. It comes across as far more pathetic to slither and squirm because you're precious game can't be labelled without you going ballistic.
>>722070572I'm too old to be raging about things that don't affect me. P2W games don't bother me because I don't play them. Other people can do what they want.
>>722070367There are probably more but it's usually just minor complaints. There was for example one camo in planetside 2 that would make people very hard to see at night.
>>722070146FF14.WoW(X-packs, cosmetics, subscription)D4(cosmetics, day1 battle passes, ingame ads)Diablo immortal
>>722069660Good goy fell for the jews' tricks
>>722065343You know the rules.
>>722070178Paying makes you reach goals faster so it's p2w but what the fuck are you even winning in warframe? There's no goals, no competition, nothing. You're just getting further in an endless grind
>>722070660An african skin? Can't see them at night if they don't smile.
>>722071076Those timers are there for a reason, people want that gun or frame now instead of 24h later.
>>722070620It shouldn't be "ragebait" in the first place is my point.
>>722065147But I am a working adult, how am I suppose to compete with teenager that spent 6 hours grinding everyday?
>>722071996>teenager that spent 6 hours grinding everyday?6 hours only? Kids can't even grind anymore.
>>722072102If you are in China.
>>722066835>you can get the same items as F2P>it'd take literal years of constant playing to get the items in question
>>722071996>Adult>Still playing games that have grind in themHoly golem
>>722069589This. I'm thinking of broken DLC fighting game characters. They're not "progression" and let you magically win, but they do give you an advantage and make certain things easier.
>>722072265Capcom issue 100%.
>>722065147Does the game >Give you more power than normally achievable >Saves your time by allowing you to skip grind etc >Gives you unique cosmetics that looks evidently better than whatever is achievable in game For cash?Then its p2w
>>722072886Cosmetics was never p2w. Most F2Pers never complained about that in a P2W game but if they made it so PVP wasn't playable without getting latest cash shop item, that's when it was a P2W game.
>>722073121>Cosmetics was never p2wA lot of cosmetics are about changing your player character's profile to distract and confuse people, or have more camouflage than default skins.P2W.
>>722070178as somebody with 3k hours (clean for years): yeswhile it is entirely possible to play WF without paying and it is nowhere near as egregious of a grind as something like WoT or MWO, it is still extremely annoying to wait on 3 day timers for frames to buildthe only saving grace is that PvP is basically non-existent
>>722073197skill issues only autists like you care about.
>>722073197the only games where i can think of that being remotely relevant are tf2 and OW and it's pretty minor in both
Reminder that chinks will gladly pay if it means an advantage over others in a game.You could vote with your wallet as hard as you could but there's no changing their minds
>>722066926There's different extents, but yes.
>>722073432So why doesn't every major title sell ingame advantages to grab for that chink money
>>722065147For me, it's when people spin being able to pay to progress faster as 'respecting the players time'. Motherfucker, don't make it so grindy in the first place to sell me a solution to a problem you made if you want to really respect my time.
>>722073432True, Chinese love gambling regardless of what CPC tells them or you about it. They are gambling addicts. They would love a place like Las Vegas in China.
>>722070178Absolutely
>>722069615Don't worry about it, anon. No one takes you seriously anyway.
>>722065473There are multiple ways for games to predate on your wallet
>>722073559Because its unethical.
>>722073559Because westerners don't do that
>>722073829Why would that stop EA or Blizz or whoever
>>722073425Riot bans some skins in pro play because they muddy visuals, granted that's likely for the spectator aspect
>>722065147Valve is the only one that got this right, as you can buy an item and resell it back for less or more than its original amount you paid for...... its a win win.
>>722073602Isn't Macau that already
>>722069143Counterstrike is P2W because you have to pay to get good enough rig to be able to compete on higher levels
>>722074189Probably, does it have luxury casinos and strip clubs? Why wouldn't they just make that a special economic zone and just make it into an outside-china location so they can do whatever the fuck they want there regarding all that good stuff they like but pretend they don't because communism tradition bs when they are anything but kek.
>>722065147I think it should be noted that not all games have a clear idea of "winning" and that changes what "P2W" means in such games.Is beating the content the victory? Or maybe the amount of money you have farmed?
>>722073559i can't even think of any AAA multiplayer games that came out this decade that do not have a form of premium currency
>>722074372Easiest way is beating someone else in pvp. That's what p2w is usually tied to that instead of any premium currency
>>722074414Generally that's just to buy 'exclusive' cosmetics though?
>>722074372Leaderboards (score is being tracked) and whoever gets to max out their potential stats first is usually the winner in those sorts of hypothetical scenarios.
>>722074498That's exactly what I mean. In Path of Exile you can spend real money to get more stash space which makes it easier = faster to organize your shit but it doesn't help you clear any content. And when you do clear more content, is that winning in Path of Exile?The game doesn't have a victory condition, it's endless.
Remember when games used to have a bunch of cheats in the game.
>>722074554if we're talking about hard-P2W stuff (like just straight-up buying better items/weapons/etc) it's because it ruins the experience and kills the game in the endI mentioned Mechwarrior Online earlier and that's the only "recent" western example of straight-up P2W mechanics in a game I'm aware of and it got absolutely lambasted by everybody for doing itonly other one is shart citizen and that doesn't even count as a p2w game because "p2w" implies there is some kind of non-paying alternative available to players
>>722069589Funny typo aside, yeah pretty much this. Like something such as PoE might pride itself on having no paid power advantages, but then stash tabs are still giving you much more storage and better organization, and in non-solo leagues, much easier trade opportunities. Maybe subjectively easier reads on visual effects too.
>>722065147That sounds more like "pay 4 fun". Pay 2 win transcends that by giving you things that allow you to invalidate progression by paying for something that renders anything that could be gained from progressing properly moot.
>>722075248Stash tabs are required to sell any items at all. That's not "easier trade opportunities", that's "you can only buy items and never sell" which is where most of your currency will be earned.
I think advantages are fine if the cost of obtaining all of them are the cost of an actual game
>>722065147>you now remember your liked online game turn into a p2w shitholeWhat's her name /v/?
>>722075617There are trading forums and presumably Discord servers for that too, but they don't even come close to being as convenient for selling shit. So yeah, generally speaking any serious, non-SSF player is more or less going to have at least one premium tab, and now in PoE II there's yet another variety for selling stuff at set prices without even needing any human interaction, not that trade bots didn't exist before.
>>722065473P2W meant a specific thing and had utility in describing that thing. Stop fucking up the meaning of words because you're autistic and think P2W is meant to be understood on a literal word by word meaning.
>>722065147We do but we should always demand more.
If the game is not competitive then it can't be P2W. The whole point of P2W is the developers are pitting player's wallets against each other. Bad players can gain advantage by paying, and everyone else who doesn't pay exists so the whale can have fun with their toys. If there's no competition then there's no fucking winning. You can still have bullshit microtransactions without P2W.
>>722078282No, the "whole point" of P2W is paying to win. You can still pay to win in a single player game. They're less popular now but the first wave of iOS service games used this as their main monetisation model, mainly by letting you pay to skip timers that were real-life hours or even days long.
>>722065147There should be another decision node where it says do you have to unreasonably grind to progress without the paid enhancements. Like in DMC5 retards can pay IRL money for more red orbs, but you literally don't need to pay any money whatsoever for it, and you end up with max red orbs anyways. But also DMC5 has some special weapon varients that you can only get by paying (or by easily modding the game on PC).
>>722066947Those aren't p2w but full priced games with mtx shops tied to them still count as faggot shit
