THIS BETTER BE GOOD
There is nothing to redesign. The formula is perfect. Just focus on designing better types of DPS, tank and healers for all tastes.
instead of tank-dps-healer it's damage absorber-damage dealer-damage reverser
Everyone has self heals, no AOE damage, whoever hits the enemy first holds the aggro until they dieNo need for the trinity.Funny because in some high level content of ESO that is how it works but you basically have to slot a taunt to hold aggro.
The whole party is filled with mages with infinite damage and CC.
>>722548976Now the game has no playstyle variety. *shoots you*>>722548934Interesting... I'll let you live.>>722548876You get to live.
>>722548824Tank (with damage) + Controller (with damage) + Support (with damage)Like good old times, when the games were good
>>722548824all tanks.
dps is a redundant and shitty design.should be >tank, frontliner classes, uses a variety of tactics to mitigate damage, reduction/avoidance>debuffer, midliner classes, focuses on debuffing the enemy, increasing teamwide damage contributions and can use control abilities like roots or stuns>buffer, backliner classes, focuses on buffing allies, healing, damage buffs, cleanses, etc.making one class a "damage dealer archetype" is dumb as fuck because all classes contribute damage
>>722549120This is as retarded as saying tanks are redundant because everyone can take damage, healers are redundant because everyone can self heal etcYes, everyone can deal damage, but DPS players deal more damage than everyone else. If tanks and healers let too many DPS players die, you might not be able to kill a boss fast enough to time a key or avoid an enrage mechanic.DPS players are like an expendable resource. You don't instalose if one dies, but if you let two or three die the fight's pace goes downhill. It's genius design.
Design classes that make sense for the setting, and not to fit an autustic meta favoured by internet aspies.
remove the healer from the trinity. add another tank. they juggle threat and their health is the encounter timer.
>>722549056>Now the game has no playstyle variety.It actually would if for example the boss does mega damage that only certain builds can handle.I know its not a popular game but anthem which was actually pretty decent has the no trinity gameplay I mentioned, though heals were pick ups. There was 4 mecs and 1 could tank lads of damage, one could hit with lots of elementals, one was a speedster and the mechanics of the game means you need blast weapons to synergise with elemental attacks.Essentially it was 4 DDs but the tankier one could role as a tank. Though there was no aggro.just using that as an example, It could work.It would rely upon builds though rather than class.
>>722548824Dark Souls Online, like there are tanking equipment and healing spells but nobody has to be a dedicated tank or healer.
>>722549279>DPS players are like an expendable resource. You don't instalose if one dies, but if you let two or three die the fight's pace goes downhill. It's genius design.if you can just do an encounter with one of your roles dead on the floor, its not a role, its a glorified piece of equipment.similarly, what do tanks to to maintain aggro? they >deal damagewhat do healers do inbetween casting healing spells if everyone is topped up? they>deal damageyou never have rogues waiting on energy casting a healing spell on the tank, they are doing autos and combo point abilities and shit. they are the only "role" that is and does nothing unique or interesting. debuffers fill the same slot but actually contribute to a PARTY of players
>>722549498>they are the only "role" that is and does nothing unique or interesting.that's due to bad raid design. for example you cant do wow classic bwl without a rogue disarming the suppression room traps. modern design is too combat brained for its own good.
The only two fundamental design philosophies are taking damage and dealing damage.Healers are already borderline grasping at straws design wise. At a high level they don't exist to fix people's mistakes because no one ever makes mistakes. Their role relies on unavoidable damage that functions as a HPS (heal per second) check. But they are solidly cemented in the RPG archetypes, so whatever.>>722549498>if you can just do an encounter with one of your roles dead on the floor, its not a role, its a glorified piece of equipment.Do you have experience playing MMORPGs at a high level?If you only ever play casual content, yes, DPS players are not necessary.At a high level you need the DPS players alive, otherwise you fail DPS checks. Also in many encounters you can just let the healer die and self heal through the damage. There are many types of encounter where you can afford losing one role but not the other. Sometimes you can't afford losing anyone.
>>722549056>redesign it or I'll kill you>lets the two people who don't redesign it live
>>722549120Your suggestion is retarded. This is the start of homogenization. Next you'll be saying "What's the point of a tank? Just raise everyone's defense" and "Why even have a buffer if we can just give everyone their own buffs"
>>722549962and thus guild wars 2 was born (it's shit)
>>722549498So take a debuffer instead of a DPS
>>722548824You want me to think about MMO slop for more than a second? Do me the favor of pulling the trigger.
Support subclass in the middle of the triangle. All roles have access to it.
Support is a bitch role. Remove it.
>>722550001It's not shit, just stay away from the vast majority of PvE
>>722548824*Make agro less retarded. Instead of spaning taunt tanks have to physically block enemies*Most of the content is non-instanced. Only few rooms are insatanced such as boss rooms*Not directly trinity related but put in anti-speedrun features so prevent min-maxers from ruining community*Put emphasis on non-combat classes such as builder and crafter, have them be involved in most aspects of gameplay, probably by limiting inventory space and forcing platers to craft on a spot
Make classes that each offer a unique identity and gimmick. The skill loadout is malleable and allows for mix and match within theme.
>>722548824Just remove tank.
>>722548824Defense and healing are both just damage mitigation. So I propose a design space where each class falls somewhere on a spectrum between 100% of their power budget being damage reduction or 100% being damage output/amplification, with balanced classes being 50/50.Then you just design classes all up and down the spectrum with whatever mechanics and flavor are the most interesting. Then, everybody can pick whatever the fuck they want and everything would be balanced. The only exception is maybe don't make a class that has zero damage output.
Remove healer. It was always a stupid role in tactical games.
>>722548824There are no dedicated classes, players can acquire skill points, spells/abilities, gear and items that offer certain elements.
>>722549329This anon is correct
>>722548824Artillery, heavy armor, cavalry.
>>722548824Change healer to a buff/debuff/CC role. There is no healing until you leave the dungeon and return home. Sink or swim for everyone. Do your job well or else.
>>722548824fixed it
>>722548824Is there any way to scale this with more roles for more players? Or is it just cramming more players into these roles?
>remove all three>every class is DPS with a slider on tank/glass canon, everyone can heal but at only certain portions of a dungeon/boss encounter, consumables (which you can base some of the professions around) are created/buffed by these choices in both class design and talents>classes are built around which types of enemies they kill:>horde/add-clearing>single-target focus boss damage>elite (mobs with higher damage and unique abilities) killingall enemies have aggro, but it swaps very easily and being able to "tank" is more focused on kiting, movement, positioning, which are rewarded through dungeon/map knowledge
>>722553731what if i want to play healer but i dont have the looks to be a femboy
>>722548824Make all of them dpsWhy drag out the fight with bullet sponges when you could just have guys shooting eachother?Terrain manipulator/aoe/traps Debuff/long rangeClose range/speedThe game would be doable with homogenous groups if you fought intelligently
>>722553781Congratulations, now inexperienced players are excluded from most runs. How will you distinguish>only has one clear under their beltfrom>shitter dragging the whole group down due to skill dif
>>722548824Be nice if the Gatherer>Crafter>Raider split actually worked instead of being oops all PVP zerg rushing.
>>722553924filter by difficulty, highest difficulty is unlocked through gear progression and offers no extra rewards from the 2nd highest difficulty which the game is balanced aroundlets sweats have fun in their punishment mode that devs can more easily alter w/ community feedback without needed to completely break game balancemy idea also involved almost no to minimal leveling, its a dungeon crawler by design
>>722554132Good workaround but I guarantee the sweats will want some kind of compensation for completing on hard mode, even if it's not a gameplay based reward. Parsing isn't always enough. They'll want some kind of reward for pushing the envelope or the majority won't even attempt the extra mode and then people will question why dev time (even if it's just tweaking some values) is being spent on a mode no one plays.
>>722554925yeah you need a strong enough combat system that people come back to it for that reason alone, tab target shit wont do it need a really strong/unique realtime combat system, locking cosmetics behind it was my main ideaill never make this game though but i hope someone does
>>722548824killing things is a big deal, so it's not only what you kill but HOW you kill itSome classes are better at intimidating avoiding combat but winning fights, others are better at incapacitating without killing, and others are likely to kill their opponents.
>>722548824Guild Wars 2
>>722556331>everyone is a DPS or a ranged DPS
completely discard it. copy the class design from class based shooters (not overwatch).
classes should be all about utilitieseveryone can stab and kill
meleerangedmage
suiciders
>>722556372Yea crazy how fun that idea is huh?
>>722548824Execution needs to be better. Otherwise, this is a good structure. The fourth node in this scheme is obviously the hybrid classes, which should be considered collectively, as their own category.
>>722548824>QUICK MAKE A TRIANGLE WITH FOUR SIDES AND IT BETTER NOT BE A SQUAREFuck you, wheel reinventing nigger, pull the trigger
BEHOLD, A FIGHTING GAME
>>722548824Dofus fixed it.
>>722548824Tanking per secondDamagerHeal
>>722556835Explain how.
>Games based on killing things>Only one role kills thingsThis is retarded. What should be changed is not the trinity, but game philosophy in general. There HAS to be a fun way of making players have a great sense of achievement by completing different kind of tasks, some alone, some that require cooperation from different player classes. Crafting, exploring, trading, all of these are always an afterthought, which means DPS always get the fun part.
>>722556876Dofus has positioningWhich makes positioners more powerful, because they can make the difference between entities making contact with one another. You can bodyblock, block line of sight, move people, etc.Summoners? Surround your enemies and body block them or fuck with their line of sight.Shrimple. Positioning adds another dimension to MMORPGs.
dark age of camelot hadtankslight tanksstealthersdebuffersbuffershealerscrowd controlpet focus (dps? utility? tanking? depended on class and spec...)Yeah you were pretty focused when it came to what you did, but almost every class had its uses, even if almost all classes had three completely different spec lines. I liked having classes focused on crowd control or debuffing or whatever
>>722557070in Dofus all classes do damage
The trinity only exists because mmos like wow are kneecapped by by combat mechanics that don't allow for enemy interactions outside of damage and statuses. In mpre action oriented games everyone plays a mix of dps and some form of support.https://youtu.be/UehwmkOGENs?si=91AF0gsbZI0yE0tS
>>722557130how is that a good thing?>Crafting, exploring, trading, all of these are always an afterthought
>>722557193Dofus crafting is not really an afterthoughtall equipment is crafted
>>722548824shirtless barbarianlarge-breasted elfflat-chested elf
>>722548824GIVE BUFFERS AND DEBUFFERS AND STATUS-AILMENT CHADS MORE ROOM TO WORK WITH
>>722557095That doesn't change the underlying logic of this triad, however. From what I recall you still have tanks, damage dealers, and healers. Enutrofs summoning bags, Feca shields, etc.WoW has line-of-sight, which is similar to what you describe, but it does not replace the triad.
>>722548824Eliminate dedicated classes. Give every class tank, dps and healer abilities. Force all 3 players to co-ordinate ALL their actions to achieve the same result as each playing one role.
>>722548824all damage is avoidableyou can spec into a glass canon dps if you are god tier at dodging spec into defensives and healing if you suck
>>722557240All crafted equipment is based on killing thingsThat's exactly the problem here
>>722548824chef, waiter and customerone makes food, one serves it and one eats itall must work in tandem to have a successful restaurant experience
>>722557349>complaining about equipment being based on killiinghow is this a problem for an RPG video game you fucking nerd
Everyone is a dpsIf you get hit you get sent to the hag dimension where you get hagged without mercy until the encounter is over
>>722557286i think devs, and players, are scared of damage meters now. everyone feels like they need to be on the same damage percentage or they're not pulling their weight, even if they are enabling/disabling. plus there's the issue of bosses being immune to most hard CC things, leaving less room for design
>>722557314soulless>>722557403you forgot the delivery driver
>>722548824Tanky DPS focused on frontlining/pushing forward Dodgy DPS that maneuvers around the battlefield weakening enemiesSupporty DPS with defensive buff/healing utilityTank gives the others the freedom to do their job, dodgy boy neuters big threats and takes out priority targets, support fuels the other two and prevents shit from hitting the fan. All of them reasonably self sufficient but working together makes everything much much smoother. Basically pure DPS are cancer. People will say healer is overpowered in this scenario yet they will still wind up the least played, every time someone has tried something similar
>>722557478retards like you playing RPGs as if they were action games are the problem
>>722548824sir, this is blasphemous image.you should repent and stop posting.
the only people who like debuffing as a defined role are the most insufferable assholes who just love being mandatory in a party while not having to do anything
>>722557558In what world is Dofus an action game.
>>722557607Pure DPS are cancer. You either play disabler or you can pick between tank that can DPS and healer than can DPS full stop
>melee focused damage dealer>range focused damage dealer>aoe focused damage dealer>burst damage dealer>poison damage dealer>summon based damage dealerthat's at least 6 different damage dealers, which can make at laest 8 classes, if you mix and match or toss in gimmick mechanics (like Dofus did)
>>722548824And lose my one chance to die scot free? No way fag, pull the trigger, let it be finished. Oh but dungeon design should include some puzzle segments so players aren't just brainde- *bang*
>>722548824
>>722557607Not true, though modern game design and player wants clash with debuffers/buffers/CC.In old MMOs, someone had to control the groups of enemies or they will destroy you. Sometimes they also added utility to the group and SOME damage to contribute. Some debuff classes were pretty active, even some buff classes could be active.Dunno how you do it in modern games where MMOs are basically action games and everyone wants to be the main character
>>722557656It's a shit game, that's what it is
>>722557789This doesn't redesign the triad, but does expand it into varied subcategories, which is obviously what players want when it comes to choice in class. You don't want the distinctions in the subcategories to blend or overlap too much, since that would defeat the purpose of differentiation. Burst and Melee could easily be the same thing, for example.
In a game where the objective is killing things, which one would you think is better?>the one that kills things>the one that helps the one that kills things
>>722548824FFXI had basically a perfect job system. Only thing wrong with it was Samurai badly needed a nerf for years but never got one.
>>722557518To me, this is the problem; making nearly all bosses immune to most shit automatically invalidates the whole idea of statuses. Devs should make bosses vulnerable, but ALSO concentrate nearly all status abilities on a specific class so that they become worthwhile. Same with buffer/debuffer; give the Bard a chance to do something for everyone, both friend and foe.
>>722558164Support roles are underrated. It's easy to kill, point and click, but managing the situation so the killers are at their peak killing abilities at any given time is an art. Whether you're tanking, buffing or healing, you're there to make sure the killing gets done right.
>>722558268You're arguing roles like they were the same in every game. If we inverted the trend, and there were more healers and tanks than DPS players in any modern game with the triad, the whole playerbase would be doomed and wouldn't be able to progress.Support roles only benefit from the fact that the minority of the population don't find them fun enough. Otherwise, on their own any game would be impossible to beat. They are not underrated, they are what they are, support. And I say this as someone who mostly play those roles.
>>722558560They're underrated in that support roles aren't appreciated enough is what I'm saying.
How would you design a support that didnt qualify as the sissy class for girlfriends?
>>722548824There are middle grounds between each that function at roughly 60% of the value of each.A pure tank will tank damage better than anyone else, but a tank/damage will do significantly more damage, but also require more heals.Meanwhile a damage/healer can do both at once, but wouldn't be able to heal a party if they didn't also have at least 160% tankiness spread throughout the party to supplement his lack of major heals. Or, maybe he also has a healer/tank that take a lot of heat, but can spread the heals around while he takes care of himself, bringing the healing to 120%.There is no set metric for every single group of 1 tank, 1 healer, 2-3 DPS. Rather it's more like a pie chart or a circular sectional graph.To add to this, having less members means more loot, and more players can take advantage of varying pieces. Maybe it's worth it to run tank/damage, true damage, true damage, and healer/damage and slap through dungeons at breakneck paces, if you're geared and skilled enough to make it work. Perhaps a pair of tank/healer and healer/damage can brute force a way to the end with grit, time, and stubbornness.Keep the trinity, but make it fluid and with more ways to approach it.
>>722558753Make potions and armor fucking expensive and see those DPS beg for a discount
>>722558756This would likely just result in people focusing on one thing anyway since things like buffs and gear work better when all put in one place rather than spreading yourself too thin
>>722556782Get out of here, Yomi.You're supposed to be in /tg/.Setsuki is the most fun and also cutest. I like playing 6 cards a turn, every turn.
>>722558812And how does that turn the support from a bitch class for girlfriends playing with their gamer boyfriend to one actually played by actual players?This isnt about them not being useful, its about the shame of taking the "bitch" roleBasically how do you turn it into a manly class for manly men?
>remove hit points entirely>beat bosses with dialog instead>solves every le holy trinity problem>watch as the same retards cry that there's no gameplay
>class 1 can do aoe damage in close range with low cd but is slow to move around>class 2 can do aoe damage at mid range but with long cds>class 3 can only do single target damage but at the longest rangeexplain why this works for shooting games but can't work for a mmo
>>722558753Ignore shitposting retards who think driving a joke that was funny a couple times nose first into the fucking dirt makes them top tier comedians.
>>722558929The bitch role is such because DPS often can do things without themyou don't make support classes more interesting, you just make DPS more fragile
>>722559007Shooting games don't have much of a penalty for dying, you respawn fairly quickly and get back to shooting, whereas it's more of a drawback in MMOs.
>>722548824Potion Chugging + Lifesteal/leech like in Ragnarok Online and Diablo 2 days
>>722558860Perhaps, but if you're at 60% of two sections, there would be a very real reason to want to bring more overall power to groups.At the same time, if you want to only be a dmgfgt, you have a spot, too. Rarely will anyone say "man i sure wish this dungeon run would take longer" and scoff at just pure damage, unless they also needed heals or tanking.Likewise, a pure tank would be needed in certain situations and the healers of major power would be in great damage for big AoE bosses.Everyone has their niche, but it's not set in stone if there's enough power spread around.
>>722558046add positioning
>>722548824it just works
>>722548824Buffers, debuffers, and synergists.Buffs include heals.Debuffs include DoTs and CC.Synergists have a passive that increases the potency and duration of buffs it receives (especially damage reduction and enmity generation) and increases the potency and duration of debuffs of whatever their main target is. They also have unique attacks that end their own buffs or an enemy's debuffs early for an increased effect, with a greater effect happening it you cancel it at the last second rather than ending it earlier on.All 3 DPS, buffers are more than healers since they have to apply everything that would normally be a personal buff for the entire party instead, debuffers are more than just DPS focused because they have to handle things like stunning an enemy with a cancel-able casting bar, and synergists have to prioritize different buffs they have on them by adjusting their order of importance, with higher up ones getting higher potencies and durations, and every new buff not on the list starts at the top and pushes everything down 1, with there being some sort of cap meaning buffs can fall off, maybe with an option to toggle it so that buffs come to the bottom of the list and you just keep swapping the bottom buff until you move something up.The end result would be the buffer keeping everyone alive and assigning buffs based on your teammate's individual play style while also giving the synergist the best buffs that you have to keep an eye on for when you need to replace the buffs, which thanks to the synergist's buff ending effect means you have to replace it immediately after it falls off rather than just renewing it when it gets low to reset the duration. Debuffers need to apply DoTs, weaken heavy hitters so that the synergist doesn't get crushed (necessary even with synergist defense buffs), cancel enemy attacks, apply stuns to lower the healing burden, and renew debuffs on enemies right after they fall off like with the buffer.
Thinking of systems is a huge mistake. Just make fun classes and challenges and let players decide how to combine, if they need to
EVERY CLASS IS NOW A GIMMICK CLASS
>>722559325Positioning helps refine distinctions between the subcategories by opening up strategic conditions, and thus skill expression, but the logic of the triad remains as that which describes how intent permeates and informs the circulation of +HP/-HP.
>>722548824make everyone a dps with self-healstank no longer necessary, all dps should be tanky enough to handle a few mobs at once, as for bosses just make their attacks red shit on the ground that you need to dodge or something like that
>>722560154I agree with the spirit of this post. However, as someone pursuing solodev, I know games are basically encapsulations of one or more systems and subsystems.Deep and expressive fun is the goal—systemic technicality is a necessity and should be harmonized with fun in mind.
>>722560945Think of a game like Diablo 2, where co-op isn't even needed, but it's fun when it happens (it's the optimal way of grinding experience), and classes don't have specific roles, yet their gameplay is definitely very different. You can make co-op systems that offer a much deeper role distribution without actually limiting players to a specific task.
>>722548824I just reintroduce all the roles that were removed to dumb shit down for normalfags. Problems solved.
>>722548824Add a fourth element to the set! I propose… rapist!!! :D (I love to rape lol)
>>722560404until you learn positioning is more valuableat which point positioning dominates and becomes the fourth chaos MMORPG godwhen you can play a class whose sole purpose is to position, and it's effective, that's when you know it works
>>722549329>MMORPG set in a sci-fi setting>Tanks are actual Tanks>Healers are the same because you just inject people with nanomachines or some shit.
>>722548824No gameplay, only grind.There, fixed!
>>722548824The only honest solution is make all classes a jack of all trades of sorts, but do it so differently that choice comes down to personal preference rather than necessity. That's the only way out of this dilemma.
