Git gud

>>722645218
Low IQ

>>722645150
Its just lazy level design, and its everywhere in Silksong.

>>722645150
there is an obvious shortcut after the first 3 gauntlets

and if crust king takes you more than one try you should just give up at videogames. the easiest boss besides moss mother

>>722645150
>Try defending this without sounding low IQ
Don't need to. The gauntlets in this game were fun and just the right amount of challenging. I enjoyed them.
>cogflies
Ah, that explains everything.

Instead of a Colosseum of Fools, they just spread out a bunch of mini gauntlets instead.

I liked coral tower
climbing a tower by fighting waves of enemies on each floor until you reach the boss at the top is a classic for a reason, and the boss is easy and stylish
you unlock a shortcut at the end anyway

High Halls was kinda lame though, just endless waves of the same enemies you've seen for the last 5 hours and then 2 extremely simple big niggas who are only threatening because they have giant bodies and like to jump into you while you try to avoid the other one's attacks on the ground. It really needed some kind of framing or gimmick beyond "you stand in the room and guys show up and you kill them." Being able to get Shakra's help makes it kinda neat at least.

>>722645150
>>722645305
I don't like the coral tower, not because the gauntlets are too hard, but because the fact that there are gauntlets at all means they had to dumb down the boss or people wouldve bitched even more. Krusty Krab couldve been so much more fun.

>>722645624
I don't think he'd have been much harder, none of the heart bosses were anything crazy
Just wait for the boss rush DLC where you can fight Kursed Krust King

>>722645714
>suddenly the coral rods he summons from the ground are all cross shaped and on fire for some reason

what did team cherry means by this

>>722645624
it was planned to be a full area but they cut it for one reason or another. Probably just didn't want to waste all the enemies/visuals by only having the boss.

>>722645305
I didn't even bother. I just did it all in one go but Silksongfags like you just cannot admit that this game has a bullshit problem.

>>722646023
if it was meant to be a normal area shouldn't the boss have been harder..?

>>722645624
hear me out: stuffed krust should have started summoning enemies from his pillars in phase 2 and 3

I can't defend it, Silksong overly relies on gauntlets for difficulty.

Still a 8.5/10 though

>>722645150
>wanderer
>cogfly
>gets filtered by one of the easiest gauntlets
>can't find the shortcut
Memes write themselves.

I still genuinely can't tell if the artificial difficulty shitposters are being genuine or not. I was hoping as a society that we were well beyond the ultimate cope of artificial difficulty.

>>722645150
git gud lol

>>722647542
>Use witch crest for the rest of the game after acquiring
>lol u retarded making it harder for yourself
>okay lemme use the busted crests
>uhmm you a scrub
>>gets filtered by one of the easiest gauntlets
>Did it all in one go straight to the boss fight without dying
Silksongfags are truly in denial. delusional retards who really thinks this game can't do wrong.

>>722645490
Honestly im surprised that people complain about the High Halls gauntlet, I beat it first try with Shakra

>>722648738
>its so easy when you cheat
crazy

>>722645150
That's just a normal pre-7th gen video game

>>722645714
The lack of a dream rematch equivalent in Silksong really hampered the experience for me. Just imagine:
>Cursed Sister (Sister Splinter parasitized by the Twisted Bud, with new attacks mirroring the Witch crest bind)
>Perfect Phantom (with a fully-formed mask, now stronger and more similar to Hornet in design)
>Unbound Widow (with her spine pins removed, allowing her to use her own silk)
>Lost Judge (LJ already has void seeping from her eyes, so this was a missed opportunity)
>Overclocked Dancers (adds a new 4th phase with a ridiculously sped-up dancer)
>Pin Sisters (Pinstress & Seamstress duo fight in their glory days, akin to Oro & Mato)
>Hive Queen Vespa (Red Memory should've had a boss fight, so it might as well have been her)
>Lost Eva (released from her capsule. Corrupted and given form by the Void)
>Lost GMS (Silksong's biggest missed opportunity. Base GMS was too easy, so a rematch should've been a given)

>>722647608
so when you ask for something to be more difficult you'd be fine with them reducing your damage to 1 and making it so that you die instantly on every hit? and you respawn at bone bottom and lose all of your items. hey that sounds so cool

>>722649042
>LJ already has void seeping from her eyes, so this was a missed opportunity)
That's oil

>>722648673
So, you found a fun and hard crest to play the game with, anons told you that you make it hard for yourself, you swapped to the most busted crest in the game, wanderer, like a pussy, then you stormed through the whole game without anything posing a threat since wanderer is completely unbalanced, and now I'm in denial? Do you even listen to yourself? The problem with wanderer is that it's too strong that lets you bypass core mechanics of dodging hits, learning enemy patterns, knowing when to play defensively and when to switch to aggressive gameplay. Wanderer is not just a crutch, it's an exoskeleton that does the walking for you.

>>722648738
>I beat it first try with Shakra
To be fair, getting Shakra in that fight means you get a free win. It's the reward for exploring everything before doing that gauntlet. You could literally cling to a top corner of the room and let Shakra clear it all by herself. Zanzibart is also helpful and easier to recruit for the help, but doesn't kill them that fast.

>>722649353
sounds like you don't like the game

The best bosses were 1v1s
Gauntlets are pure cancer and it really brings down silksong

>>722649384
On the contrary. I loved the game, and I feel sad when people don't want to learn and play it properly and instead try to finish the game like a chore. Same feelings for the people who use trainer softwares or cheats to remove double damage, unlock every upgrade, or play the whole game with a guide and an interactive map on the second screen.

>>722649353
>Zanzibart
Zaza... forgive me...

>>722645150
You get to skip most of them, and they're easy, and the boss is earlygame tier easy

>>722649042
They'll probably add stuff like that later like they did with hollow knight
And I also wished Red Memory had actual content, but they were obviously going for a more story focused thing and that would ruin it

>>722649687
>i love the game but 99% of it sucks and you need to play it exactly the way i tell you otherwise it doesn't count for some reason
you're not convincing anyone

>>722649971
what kind of cope for being a pussy is this?

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>>722649971
>i love the game but 99% of it sucks
Where exactly did I say or imply that? I'm trying to tell you in this discussion that you are stripping the fun away by playing the most unbalanced build in the game, where did I say the game sucks? You will beat the game with Wanderer, that's certain, what's also certain is that you won't feel anything in the end other than a feeling of relief that you got that chore off your list.

>>722645150
What's exactly "artificial" about it? This gauntlet is fairly easy. Plus, you do know that if you go through it ONCE, you get a skip to the boss for every subsequent attempt? I actually like battle arenas like this for the most part, and this one in particular was kino (at least to me). You get to see a bunch of new enemies you didn't see before, the visuals are great, and the fights are very fair. Felt more like a showcase of what could have been the Coral Caves region that got cut than anything else. The boss was the most boring part of the tower (spams one move and that's it).

>>722645879
KRUST IS KING!

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>>722650861
Crust status?

>>722645150
Act 3 only, which is completely optional. This is pursuing the true end, and it's THE time to pull out the stops on difficulty.

>>722649687
>and I feel sad when people don't want to learn and play it properly and instead try to finish the game like a chore
Blame the game for feeling like a chore, not the players.

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>>722645150
It was awesome. I wish I could do it again without having to replay the game.

I'm starting to believe that all the artificical diffculty shit like tying tool use to a resource (yet limiting both the amount of tools you can use per rest AND capping said resource) and trapped benches are all just marketing stunts to make people complain about it online and keep the game relevant.

>>722653836
New form of viral marketing just dropped. Maybe you're right and I'm mad you might be.

What pissed me off about this gauntlet was the fucking floor is spikes bullshit. Boss was ridiculously bad. Rune rage would delete half the gauntlet if you got lucky.

>>722649687
>and instead try to finish the game like a chore.
This is inevitable when making challenging games and then cultivating a collective fanbase that spams "git gud" and "skill issue". There's tons of people who just feel obligated to finish it because of their own pride and afterwards are just glad it's over and that they have earned their bragging rights.
It's very good for sales of course since you basically get free marketing by weaponising people's egos.

>>722645150
I hate all those input reading fliers who pigeonhole you into using clawline or tools.
The way they artificially hover exactly outside your attack range is so obnoxious.

>>722653974
Balancing a difficult game is hard.
You're always caught between these three feelings when designing a challenge:
>this was a total pushover, I expected more
vs.
>it was tough but I'm filled with an immense feeling of accomplishment after finally overcoming it!
vs.
>it was tough and I'm just glad it's over, I hope I never have to do this again

There's the golden middle, the perfect balance and it's also different for different people but lately most games that cater to the "muh challenge" audience have been tipping too far into the latter feeling for me. But I also feel like gamers are all getting better and growing WITH the games while I'm still stuck at my 2014 or so skill level and I have to expend increasing amounts of effort to finish these games, hence the feeling of them being chores.

>>722653625
If the game feels like a chore, you can stop playing it. Forcing yourself to tolerate 40 hours of something you don't like doing is stupid and pointless. Who are you trying to prove to that you beat the game? To your wife, your kids, or yourself?

>>722653974
>There's tons of people who just feel obligated to finish it
Congratulations, you turned your hobby into a payless job because some zoomer with a reddit account named FartSmella69 told you to "git gud" and "skill issue". After you use the crutches to get over the chore of a game, according to you, the same zoomer will tell you that "you didn't beat the game", then what? Will you beat the game again without the crutches? At the end of the day you have to ask yourself, are you playing games for yourself, or to prove something to others?

>>722653836
I still have absolutely no fucking idea what they were thinking about with shell shards. You can farm rosaries for 30 minutes and remove them from the equation, but during a casual playthrough it makes using tools a joyless chore because of how easy it is to burn through the stack.
Possibly the worst resource management system i have ever seen in games like this, worse than sekiro's spirit emblems.

>>722650253
go complain to TC instead? not sure why you think whining about le broken items or builds here will do anything?

>>722654631
Tools should be a last resort and not your mindless go-to-spam at the start of every battle.

You know a game sucks when literally every discussion is about the difficulty and nothing else. Complete failure.

>>722654740
>roughly 70% of your skill set should be a last resort
>if they fail to be your last resort, you either won't use them for several areas or will be forced to farm
Absolutely abhorrent gameplay design. Literal garbage.

>>722645150
>You don't get 1, you don't get 2, you don't get 3, you get FOUR gauntlets before the boss fight!
The gauntlets are the main content.
Try to defend your claim of how or why this is bad without sounding low IQ.

>>722654773
that's because you only engage with the ragebait threads

>>722654773
PUNTA, OSSH!

>>722654740
It's funny you say that, because a lot of people are deflecting criticism by saying that the player should be utilizing their tools more.
Which is it, Silk Song fanboys? Should I rely on tools or not? Which way makes the game fun to play?

>>722654876
Only the default crest, no tools or abilities at all. No nail upgrade. You're only allowed to use dash or double jump to get around environmental hazards.

>>722649687
>people don't want to learn and play it properly

You see that's the thing with artificial difficulty in games like SilkSong. You aren't actually playing, you're "gaming" the system. Those gay little flier enemies that sit exactly out of your range? That is artificial challenge/difficulty that does nothing to enhance the game or combat in any way. It just forces you to play a certain way or be forced to use moves (clawline, etc) to hit them instead of just playing your way.

Healing but get hit? Lose everything and don't heal. Hit and lost 2 hp? You can get hit again, sometimes by the same move still happening, and lose another 2 HP, etc. Long, tedious, runbacks that again don't enhance the game or combat, just annoy you and waste your time. Input reading enemies. Some autotracking projectiles. Moves used against you that you can not get of the way of no matter what move you do because you are limited in how you move/how many jumps/etc you can do.

Silksong forces you to play one way, and that's it. If you're too aggressive, too passive, too anything that isn't how the game "wants" you to play, you won't succeed. Good for anyone that can or does succeed in spit of these. But that is not and will not be the average (or even above average) experience for the playerbase. So instead of designing the game dumbly, and badly, maybe they should have just made it good. Hollow Knight was perfect in terms of fairness, challenge, etc.

>>722653923
>new form
This has been known since Dark Souls. Miyazaki himself said they didn’t include difficulty settings because they wanted users to have the “shared experience”. The point is it encourages discussion. If the game’s users are constantly comparing notes with one another they’re basically engaged in permanent grassroots marketing for the game.

The Wanderer is great no doubt, but the Wanderer is still massively overrated because Hollow Knight veterans have got prior experience with the moveset that translates over to Wanderer.
If Hollow Knight played like Hunter, then Hunter would have been considered the premium broken crest. Not Wanderer.

>>722654876
You should utizile your tools AFTER you've learned what the boss does. I've seen so many people just mindlessly spamming tools without even looking at the boss's movements.

>>722654876
You should be using tools as much as you can sustain them. Is that too hard of a concept to you? In bossfights tools can be a big part of your damage output, true. It's not your only damage output. Tools are for whatever you can't hit with your nail easily, not to dump 4 cogflies on the first enemy you see.

>>722654018
It’s a game about whiff punishing. You’re supposed to whiff punish. They can’t hover away from you during attack animations.

>>722648992
it's not a cheat, it's a reward for exploring everything, this is like saying upgrading your nail is cheating

>>722655130
if you didn't beat elden ring SL1 did you really beat it?

>>722654926
>>722655051
>>722655057
Three wildly different opinions. No consensus. This is the Silksong fanbase.

>>722654981
Wanderer is good because it's better designed for the game mechanics. It generates silk faster, it has a non retarded pogo.
HK's moveset was better designed than Hornet's in general. The nerf between cyclone slash and witch's garbage ass charged attack alone is immense.

>>722655175
>different people have different opinions
WOWWW

>>722645150
It could've been five.

>>722645150
silksong is over hyped. they spam all these lazy enemy gauntlets and dont even give interesting upgrades. I do not play metroidvania for the combat, its just not what im here for.

You just know the anti-tool retards are shitters who played the game without utilizing their kit and suffered because of their own retardation, and now they're mad after realizing they played the game wrong and made things needlessly rough on themselves for literally no reason.

>>722655216
>The nerf between cyclone slash and witch's garbage ass charged attack alone is immense.
What's wrong with the witch spin?

>>722655175
So this means that the game is not solved and instead it's wildly open. Phenomenal game design really

just go play a different game already god damn. this game clearly isn't for you shitters. get a fucking clue.

>>722655356
Lower damage, lower range, doesn't hit as often for the purposes of repelling foes, but more importantly, only generates 1 silk (and only after the last patch, it didn't generate jack shit on release) compared to cyclone slash filling like 66% of your soul.

>>722655216
>Better design is when it's simpler and less dynamic for my retard brain, engaging acrobatic movement is bad because it just is

>>722653625
that doesn't even make any sense, if you play something that you think is a chore then you're just a hopeless retard

>>722655261
>>722655386
The point is that none of the answers are adequate enough to *definitely* address the criticism of the game. You guys toss out some weaksauce answers, and then act all smug and tell everyone around you to get good. When in fact you haven't really addressed that the game isn't fun to play.

>>722655424
>If you use the upgrades the game gives you you should fuck off and play another game
This is starting to look like some sort of mental illness, I'm not gonna lie

playing the game is cheating
unless you emulated the entire silksong experience in your head you didn't beat the game

>>722654981
The wanderer is great because it outperforms every other crest without any of the drawbacks of the other crests.
>but it has drawbacks, short nail range
It's the same range as Hunter's hits, just narrower arc. And it also does the same nail dps as a fully charged and twice upgraded Hunter. Oh and you don't lose your 40% damage if you get hit with wanderer.
So, you have a crest that has better nail dps than the crest with the integrated nail damage boost and you don't lose your boost after taking 1 hit(Hunter), better silk recharge and faster stagger on bosses than the supposedly heavy-hitter and silk recharge passive crest (Reaper), similar dps than the fast attackspeed crest without the downtime, no-heal bind and 2 extra blue slots on top (Beast). Do you see where I'm going with this?

>>722655449
But everyone in these threads are saying that using anything except walking and the nail is cheating? There is no acrobatic movement in your ideal world of high skill because that's cheating

>>722645150
my only gripe about the tower is that king khann is too easy, feels like we went through the gauntlet for nothing
karmelita clearly had more thought given to her boss fight than the other 2

>>722655449
Better design is when you're not required to do retarded mental gymnastics to achieve what you easily could do with a single action before, yes. Silksong nerfed the absolute shit out of the player moveset and tools to create a semblance of "challenge" because the devs are incompetent retards.

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>>722655461
It's fun for me. That's all the answer I need. (You) don't need to like every game. You can play other games instead of trying to "fix" games you don't enjoy.

>>722654876
People should be using tools more in their exploration, particularly to handle the flying enemies people keep bitching about. Spamming tools on bosses is a surefire way to run out of shards though, so it's better not to use them on bosses except out of pure desperation when you know the boss is almost dead but so are you and you're feeling overwhelmed. Of course if you're confident in your knowledge of a boss, you could also use tools to finish the fight faster. The point is that people complaining about the tools system are just spamming them at bosses to try to brute force their way through which is the worst way to use them.

>>722655629
None of you can even justify the existence of shell shards because it's objectively a terrible system and they already have vancian charges in place akin to early souls games.

>>722655497
>Dash attacks and pogos are cheating
Are you retarded

>>722655554
The game is significantly more engaging and fun, and Hornet can dance circles around enemies in ways the knight never could, you just have a learning disability that prevents you from understanding a 45 degree angle

>>722655710
Without shell shards more people would spam tools instead of learning the enemy patterns. Also, stop trying to "fix" games you don't enjoy.

>>722655560
>(You) don't need to like every game. You can play other games instead of trying to "fix" games you don't enjoy.
where do you think you are?

>>722655461
yeah I really dont give a fuck if youre too shit to enjoy a game that isnt very hard at all. youre the one coming into threads for a game you dont like and seething about it.

>>722655741
Hornet can't do half the cool shit the Knight could simply because she lacks good sources of iframes in a game full of contact damage. She also doesn't have a single fun and unique charm combo effects unlike the Knight. Wanderer rapes other crests despite being a nerfed version of Knight's moveset without his cool charged attacks.

>>722645278
But the devs had fun!!

>>722655753
>Without shell shards more people would spam tools instead of learning the enemy patterns
Tools are already limited by per-bench charges. If the devs failed to balance them even with such a handicap, their hands are simply growing out of their assholes.

>>722654931
Just because it's not easy to kill everything with just your nail, it's not artificial difficulty. The game gives you a long range silk skill and a handful of throwable tools during the first 2 hours of your playthrough. If you are too stubborn to use them, it's not the game's artificial difficulty, it's your own genuine stubbornness.

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there is nothing we can't bitch about

>>722655629
I think the money attracting charm should also attract shell shards, but that's really the only change I'd make personally.

So what exactly did they dump into the Putrefied Ducts and Bilewater to cause them to mutate like they did? Was it pollution or was it stagnation from stopping the clear water from flowing properly?

>>722655840
>she lacks good sources of iframes
attack and move
That covers everything and is significantly cooler than the metroidvania equivalent of rollslop
>Wanderer rapes other crests
Carried by a tacked on crit mechanic, otherwise it's bait for actual fucking braindead casuals that shouldn't be playing video games

>>722645150
those gauntlets are easy

>>722655919
lugoli's forbidden pickles

>>722645150
>artificial difficulty
pve
>real difficulty
pvp

>>722655931
>the hysterical woman starts crying about "rollslop" out of nowhere
Hk's mechanics were designed for eventual iframes because it's the only way to hard counter contact damage against more erratic enemies.
Removing them made the moveset far less dynamic because you don't have actual answers to these flying hurtboxes other than just outwaiting their offensive patterns.
>Carried by a tacked on crit mechanic
Pffffttt HAHAHAHAH
Crit is the least notable of Wander's upsides. It's caried by its precision, speed and the best pogo in the game.

>>722645150
A real game tests consistency. Beating something once in isolation doesn't prove any skill.

>>722655560
>It's fun for me.
Artificial difficulty slop enjoyer.

>>722655773
Excuse me? This thread was made for the likes of me.
And yeah, the game isn't very hard. So why do you think difficulty is the reason I don't like it?
You guys keep trying to push this narrative that every critic is a shitter, while simultaneously proclaiming it's not a hard game. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

>>722655909
That's reasonable. I also think the caches of shell shards you find offer such a paltry amount that they just feel insulting, especially when a bunch of the shards end up falling into spikes. They probably should have just had one or two of those areas in inconvenient places but they act like a Metroid recharge room, filling your ammo instantly. Maybe destroy one of them in act 3. I think that would resolve a lot of the problems people have with the system. Maybe it would be too easy to get full shards, but it already is easy by just grinding out some rosaries and buying shard bundles. I feel like a journey to refill shards would bother people less than a grinding session.

Honestly none of this was an issue for me though. I think I only ran out of shards once, trying to do the forum, so I just went and explored somewhere else for a while instead.

>>722656216
>pressing a button to negate damage at any time is less dynamic than having DMC parries and an acrobatic moveset with multiple options to get out of the way of anything
Oh, you're for real retarded

>>722655063
They take forever to attack.
Trying to bait fliers without clawline is a horrible strategy.

>>722656356
>DMC parries
Descending Dark was literally a better parry than cross stitch, which sucks monkey dick.
>acrobatic moveset
Literally the only thing Hornet has over Knight in terms of acrobatics is Clawline, and even then her aerial dash doesn't launch her nearly as fast as the Knight's. And he could weaponize his dash too.

>>722656216
wanderer scrubs are truly brain damaged

>>722656449
I said DMC parries, retard
You can attack into any attack to parry it
Cross stitch(and sharpdart) are just additional meter parries you can use in a pinch or to look cool if you really want to
>Literally the only thing Hornet has over Knight in terms of acrobatics is Clawline
I don't remember dash attacks launching you in HK, or being able to pogo at an angle from a distance, or having so many options for air stalls, let alone air healing

>>722656449
she also has sprint and a dash attack that launches her airborne and the hunter dash has an additional boost on it as well. you really are dumb.

>>722656614
>I said DMC parries
You can literally use Descending Dark in the same way, it's just vastly superior. Sharpdart is an inferior version of Sharp Shadow.
>I don't remember dash attacks launching you in HK
That's because this garbage is barely useful in SS too. Clawline does it better, which is why it's the only new combat tool actually worth discussing.

according to this thread:

exploring and using every tool available to make the most busted builds and melting through bosses = shitter

brainlessly hitting your head against every wall until it eventually gives in = shitter

using some sort of mixed bag approach = casual shitter

>>722656707
>silksong doesn't have anything as ridiculously overpowered as descending dark, therefore HK is better
Retard.

They could get rid of the shell shard system and shitters would STILL struggle with bosses.

>>722656906
>ridiculously overpowered
*well designed for the rest of the game systems

>>722656726
your first mistake was trusting /v/ in any way. this shithole has been crying about elden ring for the past three years entirely because it got filtered by margit.

>>722645150
Did it all first try. What's the issue? The boss is the same race as the bug from the colosseum of fools, it was a cute homage.

>>722656971
Instant i-frames is not good design.

>>722656971
NTA but ddark is speedrun meme spam for a reason. The move is horribly imbalanced once you realize you can abuse its iframes and AoE to just shit liquid DPS all over the place like it was the street outside a restaurant in New Delhi.

>>722657145
Neither is contact damage, yet they balance each other.

>>722657145
It can be. I’d even argue that it IS with Shade Cloak. It’s just busted with ddark

>>722657154
>speedrun
Literally couldn't care less. Catering to speedtrannies is responsible for half the issues in silksong.

>>722645150
I did it first try, this entire thing, with the boss included.
"Difficulty"

Reminder: It's only a vocal minority who complains about "artificial" difficulty in this game. It's the people who've grown weak from AAA slop which hands them out instant victories every time.

>>722657249
I’m saying the opposite, anon. I’m saying you can observe the strategies speedrunners coalesce around to determine what’s broken in a game. If the people who have gamified the idea of trivializing every challenge in the game to beat it as fast as possible are all universally doing
>spam this one move over and over again because it makes you invincible and melts everything while letting you mindlessly mash buttons
That’s a strong case for that move being broken as fuck.

>>722654931
>It just forces you to play a certain way or be forced to use moves (clawline, etc) to hit them instead of just playing your way
Wow it's almost like the game was designed for you to use multiple options and not just your needle.

>>722654931
>I can't play the game the way I played other games, therefore it's artificial difficulty
My brother in christ, are not able to meet a game halfway at all? This is like being mad at a tactical shooter because you can't play it like Halo.

>>722657387
And i'm saying it's fine to have strong abilities in your games. Better than having underwhelming garbage like the vast majority of options in silksong.

>>722654931
"Skill expression" faggots are a cancer on gaming.

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Every thread is just picrel every time

>>722645218
fpbp

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fromdrones could be here

I fucking despised the flea juggle and flea dodging minigames, they were not fun at all, just annoying and boring. Especially with the juggle one because it translates to nothing to how you play the game normally. Absolutely sucks that it locks the last pale oil upgrade behind having to beat 3 of these stupid mini games. At least the flea bouncer one wasn't anywhere as bad as the other two.

The minigames felt like the equivalent to a dumb escort mission that shaped how I felt for a character. Before I kind of liked the fleas as characters, but after the minigame I hate them.

>>722658190
>Silk Song
>Having game design that encourages and rewards slow and careful play.
Choose 1.

>>722658412
>Takes the comparison literally
every single time

>>722658438
I considered what the image would mean if it was taken metaphorically. And there was no substance there. It would essentially boil down to "you didn't play the specific way I think you ought to have played". Which could mean anything and nothing at all.

>>722658342
Aside from the minigames not needing an equivalent in the rest of the game (the point of minigames isn't to be training wheels, especially when you're in Act 3), I agree they're annoying and somewhat RNG dependant. Juggle can go either great or terrible depending on what unique flea you get on certain cycles, and dodge seems hard-designed to just fuck you over if you get hit even once. Obviously the point is to dodge, so getting hit should spell your death, but I've had so many instances of getting hit, and ALMOST recovering only to find myself too low to hit a platform, so I'm just stuck uselessly floating down like a retard.

>>722658536
You are adventurer 2.

>>722645150
I don't get it. I did it first try on my first playthrough.
You're sitting in your room and there is no danger to your being. No one is forcing you to play it. It is literally artificial difficulty.
There are people clearing it on Steelsoul.
Exactly what is your argument?

>>722658568
The argument of minigames needing parallels to the main game is that it's better for mini games to be related to the main gameplay if you're going to have the mini games be challenging, other wise it's like having a dumb stealth mission in an action game.

>>722658708
I see that and just don't see the point. If a minigame is just testing stuff you already do in gameplay, then you're not really being given something new to do, and often you'll just first clear the minigame because you're already well practiced in what it's testing you on. I cleared bounce first try specifically because pogo-ing is such a common thing to do elsewhere.

>>722658081
>And i'm saying it's fine to have strong abilities in your games
If you want the mindless melt button, Silksong has that, just spam tacks and poison cogflies and hide in the corner.

>>722658820
If it's something new it can encounter the problem where it feels like the game is forcing me to do something the game is not about, think like a dumb stealth mission in an action game.

>>722658862
>If you want the mindless melt button, Silksong has that
Silksong's mindless melt buttons are not mechanically interesting unlike descending dark.

>>722658536
Taken metaphorically, the image means there are two ways of playing any game.
>Accept that the game is challenging you to do specific things in a specific way, and is trying to teach you that by punishing you for doing things differently. With care and attention, you can learn how to engage with the game the way it expects, and succeed without too much effort
>Expect that the game will challenge you in the way you expect it to, and consider it a failure of the game if the solution you have already devised to obstacles you have yet to encounter fails to yield the success you anticipate. You will throw yourself at a wall endlessly and forever because you blame the question for not aligning with the answer you were prepared to give.

>>722658990
ddark isn't mechanically interesting, though. it's an iframe AoE attack that you can spam for as long as you maintain ammo (soul).

>>722659002
Or to put it simply
>Play the game by its rules
>Play the game by your rules and cry when the game doesn't comply

>>722659049
>it's an iframe AoE attack
Way more mechanically interesting than cogflies and tacts

>>722645150
why are gauntlets bad again?

>>722659002
>>722659127
That's just a long winded way of saying "you didn't play the game in the specific manner that I think you ought to have". Which could mean anything or nothing.
The comic is relevant to Demon's Souls, because the game actively encourages slow and careful play. So it wasn't just a generic statement about how to play games. It was a specific statement about how to play Demon's Souls.
Using the comic in the manner you have, doesn't say anything about how to play Silksong.

>>722659127
Correct. People buzz in before the question is read and then when their answer is wrong they blame the game show. Fuck off with that shit.

>>722659178
>you didn't play the game in the specific manner that I think you ought to have
you didn't play the game in the specific manner that the game designers think you ought to have

>>722659178
>It's okay when Demon's Souls makes you play a specific way
>any other game doing this is creating artificial difficulty
The argument doesn't magically disappear just because it's not a literal 1 to 1 comparison anon.

>>722659248
>you didn't play the game in the specific manner that the game designers think you ought to have
How do the developers want me to play?

>>722659134
True, but neither one is mechanically interesting. IMO cogflies and tacks both need a serious nerf.

>>722646116
This game has the same problem as ER. Artificially inflated difficulty in order to compensate for all the cheese strats that they incorporated into the game with the tools. In Elden Ring, they balanced the game around OP and spammy AoWs and spells, in SS it was the tools. That’s why if you try to play this game genuinely like how you played HK, you are going to have a bad time. This game doesn’t want you to beat most bosses fair and square by performing skillful feats. It wants you to cheese everything. It was a shame TC decided to go with this.

If I can't grind levels to overcome difficulty then that's bad design. Simple as.

>>722659294
Silksong? They want you to wait and observe each enemy, learning how it moves and what its attacks are. Then they want you to wait for the enemy to attack, take the correct measures to avoid being hit by that attack, and hit the enemy back while it's animation-locked and unable to do anything. Then they want you to back off and wait until it's your turn again.

They want you to make judicious use of tools to sneak in extra hits of damage, choosing the best tool for the job by observing the context in which they are used, and only using them after you have a high confidence that you understand the challenge before you to avoid large-scale resource drain.

They also want you to explore the world and consider turning back or going somewhere else if you are stuck, potentially coming back to a difficult challenge when you are better equipped or more powerful, or finding a route that makes more sense.

>>722659448
This. TRVTH NVKE

>>722659248
And what manner is that, exactly? Silk Songers keep changing their story, as I've demonstrated earlier in the thread >>722655175

>>722659285
You claim there is a specific way to play, but haven't actually articulated what it is. And for those in the thread who have attempted to articulate a specific play style, you've all stated different things. So who is to be believed?

>>722659467
And where does the game explicitly say this is the correct way to play?

>>722659517
By punishing you repeatedly when you fail to do it. It employs pain compliance, it makes you suffer and struggle when you don't do this as a way of illustrating how failing to do it is the wrong choice.

You are too stupid to learn this lesson. You stick your hand on the burner 9 times in a row and then come to /v/ and make a thread about artificial difficulty in stove design.

As someone who unironically enjoyed the enemy guantlets even more than the bosses (that I enjoyed immensely as well).
I've been very surprised by how the enemy gauntlets appear to be such a point of contention.

Why do people cry, bitch, and seethe so much about the enemy gauntlets?
I wouldn't want to needlessly exaggerate, but there seem to be a lot of unironic hate centred around them for some reason and I genuinely struggle to comprehend why.

>>722659670
"Bosses should have easy and choreographed moves! Enemies groups are just random and therefore mean!"

>>722645150
You guys care so much about what other people think

>>722659729
>are just random
But one of the most fun things about the enemy gauntlets is how they're not so random.
The enemies react to you, which means you can manipulate them with your own spacing and movement, not to mention attacks. And with this you can both work to split the enemies apart or to group them together, both of which can work to your benefit.

As a side note, it's very satisfying to bounce and fling from enemy to enemy.

>>722659507
Two of those posters are essentially saying the same thing, and one is making a
>no items Fox only Final Destination
meme post.

The other two posters are basically in agreement about tool use, they're stating it in different ways. Tools are not for spamming, that wastes your resources. You shouldn't be avoiding them entirely, unless you want to artificially handicap yourself for the fun of an additional challenge. But the game punishes you for using them mindlessly. Because tool use doesn't get undone after death, the game teaches you to conserve your tools in situations where death is likely (i.e. you are up against an unknown threat, are still in the learning phase, and don't expect to survive), and to apply them more liberally in situations where death feels avoidable (you understand the challenge, you see the light at the end of the tunnel, and you think you can probably get through in a few more good attempts).

I've also seen people say things like "Tools aren't for skipping the first phase, they're for skipping the third phase"; same basic sentiment. Tools aren't supposed to be used to trivialize fights, you still have to learn the fight. Tools are to be used when you have the fight more or less down, to maximize damage output and thus reduce the length of the fight. The resource cost is there specifically to ensure you don't bust them out until you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm not personally a fan of this design choice but I at least understand it.

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How are the boss fights in this game vs the first? I thought the first game had a fair share of bosses that I didn't care about or didn't like, so my initial thoughts for Silksong were that the bosses were generally better in the act 1 and earlier in act 2, but then I got to the latter part and encountered more bosses that I hated or didn't care about that things got more familiar to the first game.

>>722659643
>By punishing you repeatedly when you fail to do it
So the game never explicitly says it.
Thanks for confirming you're just making shit up, and hoping it's true.

>>722659670
I think people just don't like gank fights in souls games(which makes sense); they then transfer that hate to silksong

>>722659297
Only if they remove the gayass shell shards.

>>722645150
it's an optional challenge and it has a shortcut after the hardest gauntlet, how are people complaining about this
trial of the fool was 10x harder and had no shortcuts

>>722659861
This won't help at all anon, it's clear that he's just looking for any answer to his question so he can say it's stupid.
>"Tell me how you're supposed to use tools"
>Use them but don't completely rely on them
>"Durr that's two ways of using them"

>>722659861
Are you for real? Poisoned tacks and cogflies can trivialize any fight and they are both used mindlessly.

>>722659869
It's true by default, because that's how game design works. The game designer uses the obstacles of the game to teach the player how obstacles are meant to be overcome. The Goomba in 1-1 is there to teach you about jumping in Super Mario Bros. The game never puts text on the screen that says
>jump to avoid getting hit by enemies
and it doesn't have to, because it communicates this message via game design.

You are running into that goomba over and over and bitching that it's there instead of fucking jumping. This is not the game's fault. It is your fault.

>>722659964
>trial of the fool was 10x harder and had no shortcuts
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
SILKSONG IS HARDER! SILKSONG IS HARDER AND MORE TEDIOUS!
SILKSONG CAN'T BE EASIER THAN MY PRECIOUS HOLLOW KNIGHT!

>>722649042
>with a fully-formed mask
You don't get the appeal.

>>722659869
How does Demon's Souls tell you the correct way to play it?

>>722660036
>"It's TRUE!"
>"B-B-BECAUSE I SAID SO, OKAY????"
*yawn*

>>722659910
Personally I do think this would be the right choice. I'd rather see the most OP tools be nerfed and remove the shell shard system entirely, so that tools can feel like an extension of your move set similar to silk skills and the needle, rather than feeling like Holy Waters.

>>722660072
Wouldn't know.
Why do you ask?

>>722660085
Someone post the webm of a game's journalist failing to beat the cuphead tutorial while a crow figures out how to stack objects to reach food. I don't have it saved but it's appropriate.

>>722659467
>Then they want you to wait for the enemy to attack, take the correct measures to avoid being hit by that attack, and hit the enemy back while it's animation-locked and unable to do anything. Then they want you to back off and wait until it's your turn again.
This sounds good on paper, but here are the problems with it.
1. Some enemies have defensive capabilities, where when you attempt to attack while they're animation locked, they instantly defend themselves. This is super unrewarding, because you think you've exploiting an opening when you're not. It robs you of your joy.

2. There are hardly any proactive options. So you literally do just wait sometimes. And waiting is annoying. is this a turn based game, or an action game?

3. Enemies do no react when you strike them. You finally get your opening, and what's your reward? A single peck, before you have to run away again. Since the enemy immediately goes into their next animation. This just feels bad on a tactile level. Enemies should react as if hurt, and potentially be open to following attacks.

4. Dealing with the whole back and forth thing feels like shit when dealing with flying enemies. Since they're always just outside of your reach. You have to play this awful push and pull game with them, while they're input reading to keep away. Completely artificial nonsense, because the developers want to keep the enemies at a radius away from the player, so they can force you to wait your turn.

These design flaws are apparent in the very beginning of the first Hollow Knight. In the first starting area, you encounter a big dude with a club who does double damage. The way to defeat him is to simply move forward and back, keeping just a hair's distance away from his club. Back forward, peck, back forward, peck, back forward, peck. Team Cherry has never figured out how to make enemy encounters more interesting than that. It's all just a variation of that core back and forth wait your turn bullshit.

>>722660096
Use the Architect’s Crest then?

>>722660153
Why is that appropriate?
I just asked you prove your own claims to be true, and you admitted you couldn't do it.
No need to get upset.

>Play HK or use Shaman Crest
>Use spells that are tied to your mana bar
>As long as you reliably avoid damage or take little hits and can keep up your mana by attacking you can keep using spells throughout the boss fight.

>Use red tools in Silksong
>Only a limited amount to use per bench visit
>Can't regenerate them mid battle outside of Architect
>Have to deal with a shitty shard resource mechanic, and if you die, you waste all of the shards
>Bosses don't have health bars, so the only way to really reliably use them is to spam them at the last phase in a boss fight (which kind of trivalizes the last phase part of a boss fight if you think about it)
>Red tools are pushed to be spammed at the last phase of a boss fight rather than used throughout the boss fight and the resource mechanic is locked behind boring grinding rather than being good at fighting the boss

Honestly I think the red tools are poorly designed and worse balancing than spells.

>>722649042
>>Perfect Phantom (with a fully-formed mask, now stronger and more similar to Hornet in design)
If we ever get to fight a memory version of Phantom, which is probably not even unlikely for DLC. Then it's most likely going to be White Phantom or something.
The distinct features of Phantom is how they're grey with silk that's fading. But once upon a time, even though we don't know for how short of a time it may have been, Phantom was presumably spry and strong, before her silk had started to fade.

its just not fun, there are plenty of harder games which are still fun, but this just isnt - high punishment and tedious runbacks are funkillers

>>722660220
Architects doesn't solve the problem, because it still consumes shell shards. The shell shards are the problem. I don't think Silksong benefits from having a fixed total ammo pool; I think the magazine-based system of running out until the next bench is sufficient.

I'd feel a bit better about shell shards if the entire game worked the way the dream world does (tool uses are reset on death, so you've only spent shell shards on an encounter if you survive the encounter) but honestly even that isn't great. The game would be fine if it just relied on limited uses between benches, gave architect the ability to spend silk to reload without a bench, and nerfed the most broken tools so that spamming them wasn't a borderline insta-win that was only capped by long-term resource drain.

>>722645150
why do you have to post this every day you fucking cry baby bitch.

>>0722660058
it is harder on average, sperg-kun

5 would be too much

>>722650253
>the fun away
What if the only way someone finds the game fun is by using tactics you personally hate?

>>722645150
>artificial difficulty
>tedium
>bad design
>respect my time
how to spot a redditor /v/ edition

>>722660465
I just finished act 2 after completing everything there is to do in it and i never had to farm shell shards to replenish my tools. The reserve shell shards that i have collected along the game helped whenever i ran out of shells. You get shell shards from every enemy in the first place.

>>722660192
>Some enemies have defensive capabilities, where when you attempt to attack while they're animation locked, they instantly defend themselves
I don't think this is true of any enemy in the game. The few enemies with block or parry functionality either do it as an attack pattern on its own, or (occasionally) do it when struck out of neutral. The mechanic in either case is designed SPECIFICALLY to incentivize waiting your goddamn turn instead of trying to keep up pressure when the enemy is in neutral. It's one of the strongest ways the game tells you
>you are supposed to whiff punish

>Enemies do no react when you strike them
Again, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO WHIFF PUNISH. Everything having hyper armor is the point. You cannot combo an enemy. You cannot interrupt its behaviors with your behaviors. Your job is to wait and see what it will do, and exploit openings when you find them. I'm not saying that this is the only right way to design an action game, but it's very obviously how Silksong is designed, and it works for Silksong.

This is what people mean when they say you aren't engaging with the game the way it wants, you're engaging with the game the way YOU want and then blaming the game when it doesn't work. You want the game to work like the kinds of action games you are already good at, so you play it that way, and then when you eat shit and die because it isn't that kind of game, you get mad at the game for it. It's NOT THAT KIND OF GAME. You have to learn to play Silksong like it was Silksong, not like it was Bayonetta.

>>722660674
I was in the same boat, I'm more or less permanently sitting at 800 shell shards. The reason is I don't use tools very much. I'm saying I think that's bad design. I think I should have used tools more, but the game is structured to discourage it. I dislike this. I think the game should be structured to encourage me to use tools more than I did. I think tools should feel like a more natural extension of the core moveset than they do, and I think eliminating shell shards is the way to accomplish that.

>>722645150
Literally the only gauntlet in the game that I had issues with was High Halls so the only defense I have is that the gauntlets aren’t difficult so they can’t be artificially difficult.

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>>722660572
If someone enjoys playing Dark Souls or Elden Ring with a long range poke mage build, summoning 3 players to help him in every area and boss, and that players finds that fun, it's his right to do so and I'm happy for him. If the same player comes later and tells everyone that the game is a chore, is boring and complains about muh artificial difficulty for inflating the bosses' HP bars due to the 3 summoned players, then I have the right to call that player a retard. Sounds fair?

>>722659861
>Two of those posters are essentially saying the same thing, and one is making a
>>no items Fox only Final Destination
>meme post.
ok, ok. I'll concede that much is true. However, I have seen wildly varying opinions, which is why I was so eager to project those opinions on those anons. I've seen people say that they felt the game was easy without tools, and perhaps tools make things too easy. So you "didn't beat the game", if you relied on tools. Especially ones like cogflies and tacks.
And I've seen people on the opposite end of the aisle, who say tools are the solutions to everything. And then when you tell them how costly tools are, and shards are an issue, then they blame you for running out of shards.

So while the anons I quoted don't quite fit the roles of these opinions, they still exist. I'm not just fabricating here.

But about your supposed true way of playing. Conserving your tools and learning fights still isn't fun. Like, I get what you mean. And it's more or less how I was playing. However, I don't think learning the bosses are fun in the first place. I do it, because years of dealing with souls games has taught me some patience and diligence. However, I'm not happy doing it. I don't feel rewarded when I win. Getting instructions on how to use tools doesn't make the game feel good and rewarding.

>>722645150
Unironically got gud, you get a shortcut just before the boss

>>722660916
You are fucking stupid. Sygau

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>>722649687
What a massive faggot, holy shit, who gives a fuck how other people play games
>I feel sad when people don't want to learn and play it properly
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO you have to play the game the way I want or else it doesn't count AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

"Your wish to remove shell shards from the game is granted! However, to balance this, we have also nerfed tool damage to only deal two thirds what they did before and we have also removed Architect's crest."

>>722661141
>what are you doing? you cant move the knight in a z shape?
>you cant move pawns like that!
>that’s not a checkmate!
>”bro shut up this is how i have fun playing chess”
This is how you sound like

>>722661206
If Team Cherry can't rebalance the tools well without shards that's their own fault.

>>722661314
That's a shitty comparison, because he's not breaking any rules of the game.
You just don't like what he's doing.

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>>722645150
>can't beat Hollow Knight
>will never get to even try Silksong

>>722661314
>make retarded statement
HAHA gottim

>>722660916
Right, but your argument was that if somoen used wanderer crest the whole way through they'd enjoy the game less than with the mechanically weaker options, which is what I don't get. Using your ER example is like if the guy goes a shit build untill he learns about an OP one becuase he's tired of the game not being fun, and you're telling him that the only way for him to have fun is with the shit build

>>722660945
>I don't think learning the bosses are fun in the first place
I don't know what to tell you then. It's literally what the game is about. The entire combat system is built around learning patterns and exploiting them. If you don't find that fundamentally fun, it's just not the game for you. It can't be "fixed" because people like me who love that specific experience would be disappointed if it were changed. I WANT the game to kick my ass until I've studied hard enough to answer all the questions. I'm tired of action games where victory is a simple question of the synapse time between "see incoming hitbox" and "press the avoid damage button".

There's no way of making Silksong into the kind of game you want it to be without fundamentally ruining it for people who like it being the kind of game it is. I get having different opinions about shell shards or two-mask damage or bench placements and runbacks, but you're talking about fundamentally altering the core gameplay experience of winning the fight by learning the patterns.

>>722661391
No, its not. My point proves that SS is badly designed while Chess isnt. There is no fulfillment to gain from shallow victories and that’s exactly why my point stands.

>>722661314
Shitsongfags btfo

>>722661517
>while Chess isnt
Chess is literally an example of bad game design. The game is only upheld by tradition.

>>722645490
The boss was lame though which I think is the root of people's complaints. After all those enemies the big guy himself felt like a total pushover and the shortcut existing is absurd because nobody's losing to that.
Hopefully his godhome version is an actual challenge.

>>722654018
not an issue if you use witch, shaman, or reaper
now those crests have other downsides, but you'll never be bothered by flying enemies again

>>722655560
>You can play other games instead of trying to "fix" games you don't enjoy.
I don't understand why this concept is so hard for people
I don't go around demanding sports games or driving games change to fit what I want, I just don't play those games because I know they're not for me

>>722661613
>chess is le bad according to some literally who anon that coincidentally defends badly designed games

>>722661206
Fine but it doesn't really solve the problem. Cogflies aren't broken because of their DPS (it's not actually that high), they're broken because they don't require thought. You don't have to aim them, you don't have to time them, you don't have to use them at the right moment. You turn them on and you focus on something else while you get DPS for free.

How you actually fix cogflies is you make it so they don't automatically target enemies. Instead, they orbit Hornet the way they orbit the enemies in High Halls that summon them and deal simple contact damage. If Hornet uses a melee attack, then one cogfly shoots out in a straight horizontal line a short distance and returns; if it hits an enemy on this flight, it "locks on" to it and does its brief run of DPS ticks before returning to Hornet. No auto-aim, no auto-cast. You have to "fire" the cogfly at the target for the effect.

You could honestly make Cogflies do MORE damage with this change and they'd still be better balanced.

Tacks could be fixed by making it so Hornet can't throw them. She instead crouches and places 3 of them where she's standing, and for those 10 or so frames she can't move. So you have to put yourself in the line of fire of large grounded enemies for the opportunity to punish them for walking, and you have to do so repeatedly to cover a larger area.

>>722659964
You should go back and try Trial of the Fool again. It's quite easy.

>Boss summons adds
:O
>Part of the boss are adds you fight before the boss
:(

>>722661517
>No, its not. My point proves that SS is badly designed
Where did you prove that? Quote the exact part of your post that does this.
You won't, because you can't.

>>722660096
>Holy Waters
I doubt even a quarter of the people in this thread even played Castlevania anon. People still don't see how much Silksong is taking from classic Castlevania, the most we got is people comparing Hornet's turn animation to Alucard's.

>>722661854
Honestly I was talking about the DMC item, I never played a Castlevania game

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>>722660717
>I don't think this is true of any enemy in the game.
It's true of shield enemies, they can shield even while in whiff frames.
Or, if I'm wrong, then perhaps it's because they return to neutral faster than I expect them to. And with how animation is handled in the game, their snap back to neutral would be instant, so if I'm even a frame late on the punish, then it *appears* that they're automatically blocking. And if that's the case, then I will still say it's bad design, because they should have a visual transition from attack to neutral. Not a frame 1 blocking ability.

>The mechanic in either case is designed SPECIFICALLY to incentivize waiting your goddamn turn
This feels like garbage though. I understand it to a certain extent. But there comes a point where it's just annoying, and Silksong arrived at that point. Hell, the first Hollow Knight arrived at that point. It's so fucking lame, just standing there waiting for the enemy to flinch back, and then try to judge which flinch he's doing, and react appropriately. Only to get a tap in, and have to run away again. How can I explain the feeling... It's like, imagine you're eating a box of nerds. But you're only allowed to eat one nerd at a time. Sure, with diligence and speed, you can eat those nerds pretty fast. But it feels terrible to eat it that way, doesn't it? It's more satisfying to be able to devour a cluster of nerds at a time.

>Again, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO WHIFF PUNISH. Everything having hyper armor is the point. You cannot combo an enemy.
Again, this feels like GARBAGE. You work so hard to find openings, and you don't get properly rewarded for them. Hell, not even fromsoft is this stingy with their design. In Demon's Souls, waiting is also how to deal with enemies. But when you find your opening, you're rewarded with a combo. Or, alternatively, you can beat down the enemy's shield and break their guard, which is also rewarding. Hollow Knights enemy design is so... ascetic.

>>722660717
>>722661959
>This is what people mean when they say you aren't engaging with the game the way it wants
No, how you described the game, is how I'm engaging with it. I just think it sucks! I'm blaming the game, because the design is poor. By your description, they designed a shitty game full of artificial difficulty.

>>722661956
Oh. That works too then. Once again a Metroidvania thread has nearly nobody who's played Castlevania or Metroid. c'est la vie.

>Argument devolves into "well I don't like it"
Every time

>>722662047
It’s funny too because Silksong isn’t even as hard as Castlevania on NES

>>722662047
Hollow Knight is not a metroidvania.

>>722645150
>artificial difficulty
Consistency is not artificial difficulty

>>722661959
>and you don't get properly rewarded for them
Do you have brain damage, anon? Do you do nothing but watch reels and other instant gratification shit? Serious question btw.

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>>722662247

Kek, if its too hard for you just practice or stop playing. Fucking retard

>>722661331
Tools were already balanced well.
I genuinely struggle to imagine how people kept running out of shards.
I used tools throughout my entire playthrough and I was still hovering close to the shard cap at pretty much all times unless I had just recently fought a boss.

>>722662469
low IQ

>>722661853
>t. Retarded
I thought it was obvious but i sometimes forget literal retards with room temperature IQ browse this board. My point was it that a game that grants excessive flexibility and freedom can’t give the player a fulfilling experience.

>>722662047
I don't think that being a Metroidvania is really integral to what Silksong is about. If Silksong was perfectly linear I'd still enjoy it a lot. I'm here for Mega Man, not Metroid. Tight platforming and bosses based on jumping and dashing around specific geometric patterns while chipping in damage with pot shots. Hornet is Zero, not Samus. Who honestly gives a shit that the game lets me choose to go left or right? Exploration is fun and all but I kind of don't care that much.

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>>722662509
NTA but that was my experience too, barring the wishes in Bone Bottom requiring you basically dump your entire reserves, but even then I had bundles from literally just exploring. I'm half convinced all the faggots complaining just spam tools instead of using their needle because they shit themselves at the thought fo an enemy not dying in 2 hits.

>>722662651
>No quote
Knew you wouldn't be able to prove your own claims true.
Concession accepted.

>>722662695
>oh no i am a retard
We all know. No need to make it a public announcement.

>>722662658
Silksong and Hollow Knight are both literally, by definition, Metroidvanias anon. Just because you personally don't care for it doesn't mean it's not part of the game's design.

>>722645218
Fpbp

>>722662684
There are two kinds of people who bitch about tool costs
>the ones who spam them mindlessly so they're always out and having to grind for more
>the ones who never use their megalixir no matter what, and learn to play the game as though tools aren't even there, to avoid the risk of ever having to grind in the first place

I was in the second category.

>>722662750
There's no need to cry, you already lost. I already accepted your concession.
If you didn't want to lose, why didn't you prove your own claims to be true? It's your fault you lost, no one elses.

>>722645218
TRVTH NVKE

>>722662509
>I genuinely struggle to imagine how people kept running out of shards.
Because:
>boss starts
>bad players spam all the tools they got
>they lose
>rinse and repeat until shards are all gone

>>722661456
>The entire combat system is built around learning patterns and exploiting them
All the boss patterns are gay, and filled with little "gotchas". Poor telegraphing of upcoming attacks. Enemies don't react to getting hit. Contact damage with low iframes so you get hit multiple time, after the giant enemy simply moves his giant body into your hitbox.

Anyone can spend time learning these patterns. But why would you want to, when the patterns don't feel good in the first place?

>There's no way of making Silksong into the kind of game you want it to be without fundamentally ruining it for people who like it being the kind of game it is.
That's not true. You just don't see the vision.
1. Make enemies flinch when they get hit.
>"But that will make it too easy"
No, just balance the damage/hp numbers so the player isn't annihilating the boss.

2. Get rid of contact damage. If the boss doesn't have spikes, or lava, or acid, on their body, then they shouldn't be doing passive damage. This will also force the designers to make more interesting boss behaviors, because they can't rely on contact damage as a crutch for boss design.

3. Actually animate telegraphs in full. Another anon mentioned his in another thread. But he pointed out that the reason telegraphing is bad, is that Team Cherry doesn't animate the action in full. enemies snap to a single frame pose, and then their attack comes out. However, if you could actually see the flow of their motion with more inbetween frames, then you could better discern the telegraph.

4. Get rid of shard requirements. If tools need to be regulated by a resource like shards, then that suggests they are imbalanced. The game should never be afraid to allow the player to spam their tools. Because it should be balanced in such a way that tools won't trivialize fights. Unless the advantage of the tool is intentionally planned by the dev.

>>722662684
>o, barring the wishes in Bone Bottom requiring you basically dump your entire reserves, but even then I had bundles from literally just exploring. I'm half convinced all the faggots complaining just spam tools instead of using their needle because they shit themselves at the thought fo an enemy not dying in 2 hits.
Probably. This and or they keep dying over and over against bosses, while using tools every single time.
But even then their shards should steadily rise back up afterwards. Even without farming.

>>722662812
I bet all that rambling made you feel really smug in your head but in reality you are another drooling retard loser here trying too hard to be snarky and cool.

>>722662759
Agreed. Not saying they aren't, because of course they are. I'm saying I don't care that they are, because they're about so much more than that. I don't get bemoaning the people who are playing the game that don't "appreciate the classics" of the genre; the game has as much Mega Man DNA as Super Metroid DNA. Nobody comes in here and bitches about how few Silksong players have played MMZ3, but somehow I'm out all my /v/ gamer cred if I didn't play Rondo of Blood?

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>>722645218

>>722662910
You already lost.

You gonna spam the thread and cry until it 404's now?

>>722645218
/thread

>>722649687
If a game feels like a chore for many people it's usually because the game has tedium and pointless content
Silksong does have lots of things that waste your time, and many hidden walls or secrets that lead to a slim amount of shards and rosaries. The game is fun and all, but it definitely does have a lot of tedium and fluff

>>722661452
Let's say we both start playing ER. I choose a normal sword, normal moveset, normal everything, the game is balanced around the normal sword. You pick the Wanderer sword, which has +40% attack speed, +40% stagger, +40% estus, +40% parrying frames. You melt through bosses, the faster stagger stops bosses in their tracks, they barely pass a hit through you. Are we playing the same game? Are we both being tested the same? Are we both having the same amount of fun?

>>722663072
>for many people
*for a vocal minority

>>722662878
>You just don't see the vision.
Here's an irony for you: I'm actually developing an indie DMC-like action game, and I "see the vision" so much that Silksong directly inspired a core decision about how I would implement hyper armor in my game. SPECIFICALLY because I think there's value in forcing the player to wait their turn sometimes so that high-threat enemies can demand responsiveness. The fact that enemies in Silksong facetank your hits fundamentally changes how you approach them, and while I don't think every enemy should be immune to stunlock, I think you can make judicious use of stunlock immunity to make a boss fight far more interesting.

I see the line, anon. I get how Silksong works. It just doesn't work the way you want it to work.

>>722645150
The entire premise of this thread is a trick. Anyone discussing game difficulty is low IQ by default, and thus the terms issued are by definition impossible.
Everyone posting in this thread was tricked.

>>722663014
>keeps accusing me of crying
>cries like a bitch nonstop while using set phrases like the unauthentic cretin he is
You are the definition of losing

>>722645218
LMAO so TRUEEEE my friend! You've won the internet this evening, have a REDDIT GOLD kind stranger! "TRVTH NVKE" am I right fellow fromsloppers? LMAOOOOOOO get fucking BTFO for being "bad" at the SHIT game made by niggerfaggots who do nothing but waste your time!!!!! The game's not bad for wasting your time, it's good BECAUSE it wastes your time! Just "git gud" hahaha GIT GUD HAHAHAHAHA

>>722645150
On e you beat all of the gauntlets you can go straight to the boss by breaking the big triangle

>>722662274
What are you talking about? The rewarding feeling is the reason to play games. If you're not rewarded, then why are you even playing?

https://www.ign.com/articles/2011/11/08/the-mind-behind-dark-souls
>"But the main concept behind the death system is trial and error. The difficulty is high, but always achievable. Everyone can achieve without all that much technique – all you need to do is learn, from your deaths, how to overcome the difficulties. Overcoming challenges by learning something in a game is a very rewarding feeling, and that's what I wanted to prioritise in Dark Souls and Demon's Souls. And because of the online, you can even learn something from somebody else's death. I'd say that was the main concept behind the online, too."

>>722663187
So you are going to spam the thread until it 404's.
Bad losers always do.

>>722663190
Git gud

>>722661613
skill issue, git good
chess is by far the best game in existence

W bait thread to keep discussion of a great game going. Let's make these up to 1000 OP.

>>722663190
uh oh he's having a melty now

>>722663280
>chess is by far the best game in existence
Ficher Random is the best chess varient, the base game is solved and un-fun.

>>722645150
>>Try defending this without sounding low IQ.
better yet, why dont you try saying why this is bad without sounding low IQ and seething.
you cant, so you wont. I guarantee it.

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losers melty itt kek

>>722663392
flossing my teeth rn

it's important to do this

last time I saw a dentist, I hadn't seen a dentist for 15 years and she was amazed by how good my teeth were despite that, kept putting her boobs on my face hahaha it was cool

>>722663280
Chess is a test of memory and the best strategy to win is to have as many matches and moves memorized as possible.

>>722663072
>and many hidden walls or secrets that lead to a slim amount of shards and rosaries
this is really tilting to me too, even in the early game it's trivial to farm them if needed there were multiple times were I wasted minute on some platforming challenge an my reward was an amount of rosaries I could have farmed in 30 seconds

>>722663162
>I'm actually developing an indie DMC-like action game, and I "see the vision"
I meant, you don't see the vision of how to change silk song without harming the core of its design. MY vision.
I'm sure you have your own ideas. But you're not seeing what *I'm* saying. If you could see it, then you would know it's both possible to do, and an improvement to Silksong.

>It just doesn't work the way you want it to work.
That's why it's bad. You are taking the wrong lessons from Silksong. Whatever entertainment value you and the other silk song fanboys managed to squeeze out of the experience, is *despite* the fact that every enemies has permanent hyper armor. Not because of it.

>>722663502
this is a meme only complete retards like to parrot and not true at all but thanks for outing yourself I knew you would have

>>722663623
>I meant, you don't see the vision of how to change silk song without harming the core of its design
The core of its design is pattern memorization and exploiting openings. If Hornet can interrupt enemy behaviors it fundamentally and irrevocably changes that design premise.

Even a game like Sekiro only just BARELY allows enemies to be interrupted by player attacks, and never in a way that disables their AI (at best you can hit them at just the right moment in an attack windup to cancel that animation, you cannot stunlock them), and I'd argue that even that is going too far.

Again, the combat in Silksong is aping Mega Man. No matter how hard Zero HOO HA HOHs, he never stops an enemy from doing exactly what it wants to do exactly when it wants to do it. That's what the game is about; avoiding the attacks and hitting when you can. The boss leads the dance, and you follow.

>>722663669
kek, pretty telling aint it?
>heh, ive got EVERY move memorised, I will definately be winning the grand trop-
>WHAT LE FUCK?! why did he move that piece like that?! this isnt in my memory! doesnt he know the right moves?! has he forgotten to memorise the games like I have?!
>I-i lost?!
You cant memorise the moves the other player hasnt made yet.

>>722663669
Amateur level chess is a game where intelligence and creativity matter. But as soon as people start getting more serious about it, start learning and memorizing opening moves and shit like that, the creativity and intelligence aspects are minimized and memorization dominates, until you hit the hardcore pro level where everyone has everything memorized so the intelligence and creativity matter again.

I know chess, it's fun to play, but I don't like playing with people who take it seriously.

>>722663502
That’s literally the same for every competitive sport, you fucking idiot. In every sport, competitors memorize a set of tactics and strategies in order to overcome their rival.

>>722663837
>You cant memorise the moves the other player hasnt made yet
Except in tournaments this is basically not ever happening. Go look it up, amateur.

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>>722663190
u mad

>>722663891
>tennis is a test of memory
retart

ok but really?
coral tower?
those are not exactly hard enemies...

>>722663072
You know you don't have to clear the game 100%, right?

>>722663984
>whats muscle memory
Outed yourself as a smooth brain

>I've lost the argument so now I'm just going to act silly to keep it going

>>722663984
>retart
Never ceases to amuse me

>>722663116
Yes you are playing the same game as be because you're just doing a challenge run, lemme give you an examples to explain
1, in Bayonetta, you could most likely see everything the game has to offer by running away and just shooting while spamming items, but the game gives you awards and praise for not diong so, ER dosen't change one bit no matter what you use, one way or another, I can say that the only way to play doom is with the mouse up your ass using your sphincter to shoot, but that's sinmply a self imposed challenge.

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>>722663190
Settle down okay?

>>722663823
>The core of its design is pattern memorization and exploiting openings. If Hornet can interrupt enemy behaviors it fundamentally and irrevocably changes that design premise.
Demon's Souls does it. The design of Demon's Souls is pattern memorization and exploiting openings. Yet, they still allow you to interrupt enemy behaviors. Hollow Knight's design is just a far less well developed.

>Again, the combat in Silksong is aping Mega Man
Actually, in Mega Man Zero, enemies do flinch when struck. I don't remember if they do in older games. Perhaps they do, and I'm forgetting. But I remember MMZ better, and enemies flinch in that series. coincidentally, I always thought that MMZ had better gameplay than the older games. Only hampered by its small screen size, and need to grind for abilities. Which they fixed the latter in MMZ3, by removing the need to grind. Mega Man X, Z, and ZX are all better than Silk Song. So where did Silk Song go wrong?

>>722664136
>Yes you are playing the same game as be because you're just doing a challenge run
>picking an average weapon is a challenge run
I didn't say I picked a broken sword, my man... Playing with an average build and weapon isn't a challenge run. I think you are the challenged one.

>>722663856
This is true of every competitive game, not just chess.

Gandhi vs FSP is a hilarious and timeless demonstration of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfEVcZ3anG0

At a mid-to-high level, being good at a game is about advance knowledge of how a player is likely to behave and being prepared with counter-plays. A player that doesn't fit into those expectations, even if they're objectively not very good, can totally fuck someone of higher "skill" because of the extent to which true reactive skill is indistinguishable from advance knowledge of your opponent's likely behaviors.

>>722664314
Playing with any limitations IS a challenge run when you're given 0 incentive to do otherwise, true not all challenge runs are equal, some are harder than others, but they're still challenge runs none the less

>>722662509
See >>722660243

>>722664096
I do what I can to keep my boys entertained :)

>>722664871
>I was only pretending to be "retarted"

>>722663378
Low IQ

>>722663856
it's only truly a problem at grand master levels and it's more because they are all so inhumanly good at everything else than a inherint flaw of the game
For 99.999% of chess players calculation,visualization, tactical awareness and to a lesser degree positional understanding are infinitely more important than openings
t.1800 FIDE 2100 chesscom
>>722663921
>>722663502
>I heard a mangus/fischer interview once so I know everything about this topic despite not even playing chess/being comically bad at it
"people" like you are legit subhumans

>>722664441
>playing any build that's not the best possible in the game is a limitation and thus, a challenge run
You are simply wrong.

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>throws double damage balls twice in a row
>fireworks explode around the entire screen
>can't see shit
>this faggot starts spinning around in the middle of a firework plume with no windup
>can't jump up because fireworks and balls are exploding, boxing hornet in entirely
>take two damage
>immediately begins to spin again
>die

>>722664356
>At a mid-to-high level, being good at a game is about advance knowledge of how a player is likely to behave and being prepared with counter-plays. A player that doesn't fit into those expectations, even if they're objectively not very good, can totally fuck someone of higher "skill"
been there lol

met a guy at a bar who brought a rollout chess set and wanted to play. I beat him in the first game and he thought it was great, but he learned me in that game and shut me down quickly in the next two games we played

>>722666247
Who said anything about best? In ER choosing to not level INT is a challenge run, it's not very hard as there's tons of broken shit that dosen't use INT (hell INT hasn't been the strongest build in the game for a while).
I guess my question would be what would you call playing with a mid tier build as opposed to a low tier one?

>>722666271
Tobbied when you should have Oh'd.

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>>722666271

>>722666271
this shit happened to me too word for word

>>722666271
Just pogo on his head when he spins, mega easy after you figure that out

>>722666580
A challenge run means doing an SL1 run, or an SL1 and zero weapon upgrade run. Not playing the most optimal build isn't a challenge run. That's what I'm trying to explain.

>>722645150
>gauntlet/boss fight with the nearest bench in fucking Africa
>no reward for winning
>not even anal beads