How do we get normies into RTS? It has to be an RTS with really specific features, because it's really common to make features that vastly degrade user performance and favor.I don't think it should be AoE II because of no attacking while moving, plus the camera is static, relegating camera movement to clicking the minimap.That also discards games like StarCraft, but I would also mention low amounts of units and group sizes.Supreme Commander FA is probably newbies' best first game, as it has zooming and movement attacks as a baseline, plus all 3 of the land, sea, and air fantasy-meets-reality/player fantasy. People who play for one-character gameplay can focus commander rushing, but controlling lots of units (or low amounts of units in higher techs) isn't much different. Anyway, all it would take is some advertising on why the game is better than MOBAs, e.g., better interfacing/control and better adrenergics (the shakes). Team games are common on Forged Alliance Forever, as I know that most people prefer team games.What do you think?A really specific set of criticisms of this all would be really beneficial. If you're reading this, make sure to post. I want to have a really active discussion. (Bonus points for "RTS MMO").
>>722751413Why exactly would you want normies to get into rts?
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?Normalfags will never get into RTS. Its anathema to them.
As long as new RTS prioritize APM retards it will never be for normies.
My indie game about depression mixing elements from shmup, fighting, RTS and deckbuilder and roguelike content will attract a massive market.
is there an anime waifu rts? this is why the genre is deader than dead and not even koreans want to play it anymore
any RTS that are less focused on macro but more on unit synergy/counters, formation, upgrades? i know of total war
Entirely coop focused from start to finish. Make it cheap and have it run well.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?If I'm too retarded to into RTS games then I guarentee normies don't have the capability either.
>>722751413Take out base building, normie is likely gonna struggle balancing both base building and front line fighting at the same time, so its better to let them control one thing at a time ala total war
Relative to RTSs I'm a normie and I think micro has been run to the ground at this point. Ease on micro and rely more on timing, strategy and economics. Maybe even enhance terrain mechanics instead of just "high" or "low ground". Treat blocks as units instead of having to manage every fucking ball hair of each soldier
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?gatekeep your fucking hobbies
I'm coming back to RTS when the new Dawn of War game drops
https://youtu.be/iPVRnvU7p4M?si=8bJts_ny76A9do5b. This replay / cast is really good. Bring in those Gyle casts.>Commander drop.Post your favorite strats.Also, does anyone think that a new RTS should nearly copy SupCom FA? How do you get away with foregoing as much variety:depth? Buildings include T2 and T3 artillery, tactical missiles launchers and defenses, shields, nuke launchers and defenses . . . Units are similar: T1 and T3 mobile arty, mobile tactical missile launchers, various distributions of land-only, amphibious, and hover . . . Land, sea, and air.
Dead genre
how
>>722751413RTS is a solved genre, that's why it's dead.
RTS sucks.I would have enjoyed Spellforce more if I could skip the RTS parts.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?yes, it's called MOBA
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS? Why would anyone want that, are you fucking mental?
>>722752309Guessing you're the anon from the other thread we were linking Gyle casts on. Have you watched any good non-setons non-mapgen ones recently? I'm all Setons'd out and magen a SHIT. Here are a couple I watched the other day.https://youtu.be/iEBq0HIUqPM?si=qac6FS2_hMBnQLJShttps://youtu.be/fvAKGKDrQUw?si=ZR2s51jrXM7cvRMt
BAR > Supcomthere I said it
Just invite people to play or make a lobby
>>722751413Distance the genre from needless busy-work, light skirmishes and gookclicking. Instead focus more on grand-scale battles and macro decisions.
>>722751413The attention required for RTS is pure poison for the tiktok minds of today.
>>722752695Absolutely true but I don't wanna upset SupCom granpasI want everyone to play everything
I remember having more fun in RTS games building "functional" looking bases over actually playing them.I want a game called something akin to Paper Tiger where your entire goal is to go maximum China, build "aesthetically" dangerous looking bases, with score multipliers based on the placement of buildings, walls, defenses (they have no ammo, that costs money) in relation to one another, and your final rating is based on the perceived threat from other nations via satellite images.The S-rank ending is your nation getting nuclear striked by everybody for being deemed a global giga-threat.
the problem with RTS is that the demands on the player are unlimited and putting in more effort is highly rewarded and so you cannot play it casually.when playing DotA or whatever you can just brain off in the support lane or whatever, even when you're the carry there's still downtime. but in RTS there is always more to do than can be done and you have to do it all or the other player will just stomp you. it's not fun. it's exhausting.
>>722751472fpbpThey ruin everything they touch, keep them far away
>>722751413>Anyway, all it would take is some advertising on why the game is better than MOBAErgonomically, DOTA makes whatever argument you're going to make irrelevant>A really specific set of criticisms of this all would be really beneficialThe genre is too confusing. RTS games tend to munch macro play and micro play together, and funny enough, they usually end up being mediocre at bothMost players only really care about one or the other anyway. Either make where you're basically a commander controlling a small battalion, or make it more like you're a major growing a city and making macro decisionsOr better yet just go full macro and let the player be a prime minister, making high level strategic decisions without worrying about micromanagement at all
>>722751472Because it's more adrenergic than MOBAs (which are played a collective 12M hours per day, each) while being extremely similar. Controlling a commander and/or a few groups of units is extremely similar in theory, while the inclusion of base building is easy to manage, really, too (and everybody loves staring at and building up their bases for 15-30 minutes). Being more adrenergic means the player is, at any time, having more fun, stimulation, and whole body responsive.Getting players into RTS would be simple if a developer designed and advertised exactly how the game is objectively better than others. Not playing on the same map all the time is a small example. Also, instructional videos and/or tutorials would help, but it's also easy making mechanics and strats obvious, like different sounds for different incoming fire.All in all, I don't think a rebuttal exists for how similar and much more exciting than MOBAs RTS can be.
turn-based is better.
Everytime i read about "opinions" about RTS tourists and why they're afraid of them is like having to listen to a cavemen trying to explain fire according to their myths and fears. You don't know that you don't know and you don't even want to know.You people don't understand the basics of a game, rules and the skill being tested. I realize you don't even play games overall. It's not about RTS, it's about having a mild test applied to your persona. I don't think most people are like /v/ posters, tho. I believe half of the people are ok with being challenged with indepth games, it's just that no game has made the break through them yet.
>>722751413Starcraft 2 is right there, and it killed the whole genre in one fell swoop
Normies dont play strategy games. They're only interested in power fantasies where you control a one man army
>>722753587cuckold "we must be better men" moraltroon framing of the fact goycattle can't handle clicking on a minimap
>>722753583Starcraft 2 did shit. It was LoL that killed it. Hell I know several people who bought Warcraft 3 for DotA alone.
>>722751413i like zerg in SC2 so much, but I can't stand the inject autismwat do??
>>722753968>>722753968Don't play SC2It's actually shit and it is not a meme
>>722753837people blame assfaggots too much but SC2 didn't do any favors.sc2 "fixed" the pathing issues which killed a lot of skill expression from high skill games, the average retard can play at the same level who isn't a retard more often than not, then it butchered the story which was a big selling point for a lot of people who were into SC beyond being a gook clicker, then they also butchered the artistic direction of the game, they also did a bunch of other nitpicks that made people not care for the game.I think people just really undersell the damage SC2 did to the genre, to this day iirc theres a new rts in the works from ex blizz devs who left the studio and it looks as shit and bland as SC2
>>722754263>BW grognard hates everything that reduces gookclicking that was required because of retarded pathfindingalso Stromgate was DOA, they are not even working on it anymore kek
>>722751480I don't think MOBAs are very entertaining. Lobby games are surpassed by persistent worlds (something to come back to after you log off), so an RTS could have a game mode with persistent items from wins, or there could be an MMO RTS, which I think would mog MOBAs (see New World but with up to multiple units, plus base building; New World was an easy to fix game, BTW).
>>722755198>MMORTSShattered Galaxy already solved this decades agoof course N*xon, curse upon their house, holds the title hostage
Starcraft 2 has made irreparable damage to the african american community
>>722755104I didn't hate needing less gook clicking, but the problem is that they replaced it with deathballing, most players sans a few ones will usually just deathball and they can't really be stopped.Didn't a bunch of popular players went back to SC over this? Mind you, I was always terrible at SC, and my selling point was the story, but SC2 fucking killed any semblance of plot worth pushing through.I'm still sad because we never got a SC MMO and honestly I've always hated blizzard for pushing for WoW.
>>722755441And that's a good thing!
Who the fuck keeps mentioning MOBAs as RTSIt's like comparing them to Diablo
>>722751637Weebs already have more than enough games to go around. They're not going to suddenly pick up an unfamiliar genre just because of anime visuals.
>>722751527Isn't that pretty much only StarCraft?
>>722751413You can't, normies will only play games on consoles and RTS only really works with keyboard and mouse.
>>722753968>i heard u love gookclick apm numbers so here is your larva injection and tumor spreading gameplay
>>722756104Retards, that's who.Same retards that keep spouting about "gookclick" and making retarded statements like "prioritizing APM".I am SICK of these mental midgets clogging up my comfy RTS threads.
>>722753968Maek moar hatcheries.
>>722751912I still think that singleplayer is going to be surpassed by multiplayer because of that whole body energy buildup so common to 1v1 and team games (where you might even have to carry the team).
>>722758285>singleplayer. . . And comp stomps.
>>722751480That’s not true at all RTS was the normalfag pc game before the genre killed itself by pandering to trannoid comp faggotry
>>722751413They already play RTS-lite: tower defense, autobattlers, town builders, colony sims, idle games, and others.
>>722751912What are some popular coop games? Most popular games are 1v1, or team, PvP games.
>games like red alert 3 and starcraft 2 try to pivot to coop instead of sweaty unfun 1v1>players shit their pants, genre dies
>>722751923Maybe you just haven't played the right RTS.How do you guys feel about this unit right here?
>>722761668>FUCK aliensnah I love supcom i just cant play it lol
>>722751413rts is gay and buriedbetter off that waylet the 214 enthusiasts enjoy yesterdays hits
>>722761668PS: https://supcom.fandom.com/wiki/Seraphim_T1_Mobile_Light_Artillery.>>722761895Why?
>>722753427>Why do you want normies to get into RTS?>It's more adrenergic
>>722761895>Teleports into your base without risking the commander.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?I've gotten multiple friends into RTS through the Total War Warhammer pipeline
>>722751413The creators of DRG are making a new RTS game. It looks fun and interesting. Sign up for the closed alpha now, anons.
>>722764403>ankylosaurusI'm sold!>singleplayer onlyth-that's subject to change r-right?
I don't know why but I love Total Annihilation since I was a kind (although I barely play it anymore, at least no more than a couple days a year) but I never could get into SupCom or BAR. The reason escapes me, but TA has something those other two do not.
>>722751413Making sure you can do everything Co-op is a big one. If they can play the game while you babysit them they'll be a lot more willing to give it a try.
>>722751413Throw away competitive stuff and multiplayer balance. These things is why most RTS games fail.Make factions truly asymmetrical and making them actually excel in things other factions don't.Focus on campaign (story, distinct characters, setting and etc), crazy units (don't matter if unbalanced), tons of shenanigans, custom games and modding.>>722753968Zerg in SC2 are shit. Go play the 1st game + Brood War.
>>722763795Having people to play with while simultaneously increasing their quality of life is a double win.>>722764951I haven't really played any RTS coop, but I think it would be fun.How do you guys feel about adjacency?
>>722764403sign up where? you didn't even give a name
>>722765594Dinolords. It's on steam.
>>722755198Normies don't play MOBAs either. LOL and DOTA are way into total nerd shit.
>>722751413when shogun: total war came out i pretty much stopped playing rts games
>>722765951Again, DOTA is played for 12M hours per day, and I imagine League is similar.
>>722765951>Normies don't play MOBAs eitherThe fuck am I reading? MOBAs are the most braindead low barrier of entry crap in existence. Only 1 step above gacha-shit.
I don't think the problem is apm at all, thats just a misunderstanding. Pretty much all of the biggest hit genres among normies are extremely fast paced, twitch heavy games that require good reaction time. Yea not a lot of them have really high APM but I dont think its an impossible barrier to cross for normies. What is what that APM is uses for which is multitasking. Normies dont like having to worry about macro/basebuilding, defending runby attacks while managing your own runby + your own army. Most people are horrific at multitasking and again if you look at most at the most popular genres of the decade its all very narrow, and any characters/mechanics that introduce any element of multitasking are the most contentious.t. Normie who tried to get into multiple rts games and failed
>>722766483>>722767108Normies do not sit in place and play one video game for their entire Saturday, nor do they invest an hour into a match that they know in the first five minutes that they will lose. You guys are conflating normal people with autistic ASSFAGGOTS retards because you are even farther from being normal than the autistic ASSFAGGOTS retards are.Normies are the entire reason that competitive shooters are built around short time to kill and specially manipulated matchmaking to give people a win at least every few matches, because they will not keep playing if they lose too often. That's the opposite of how ASSFAGGOTS games work.
>>7227514131. Campaign. A decent campaign. Not a short 5-mission bullshit. A decent, fully-fleshed 20-or-so missions.2. Branching missions, meaning failing a mission, or rapid/delayed completion of one, can unlock alternative/optional mission. So a bunch more missions to the already 20-or-so.3. Compelling storyline to keep player interested in the game and its lore overall.4. Decent unit balance and variety, but none of that rock-paper-scissors nonsense or starcraft bullshit. Hard/soft-counter, with some units becoming hard-counter to others via upgrades, and some units gaining extra features/options via upgrades.5. Base building and base defences, with base defences benefitting from upgrades and reinforcements so that turtling or defence line creep are viable.6. Most important - unit pathfinding and AI/unit logic. Options to program in options unit behaviour (priority targetting, advanced movement options such as reverse move and attack)7. Various game modes and scenarios aside from campaign and skirmish, such as C&C Generals ZH's Challenge mode and C&C3 Kane's Wrath Global Conquest.8. Unit modification. In single-player campaign, challenges, or skirmish players can customise their units (aside from standard upgrades) to fit their preference/tactics. Modifications can be something light, like simply swapping a .50cal MG and missile launcher on IFV for a bigger missile launcher, a mortar, a minigun, a flack cannon, or laser/plasma/microwave/whatever weapon, or heavy, such as replacing a main cannon on a tank with A-10's GAU-8 rotary cannon with modified turret for both ground and air attack.9. Multiplayer. A decent multiplayer will go a long way.And for corporate cock-suckers who want money and ask "how the fuck all of the above is going to make us insta-rich?" - go fellate a shotgun and suck it so hard you suckstart it. Make a decent product first, and then you can sell as much new content for it as you can make.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?I don't want to do this
supcomfags talking abour rts gives me the ick, like halofags talking about fps.
>>722769341supcom doesn’t even have 1-3
>>722768812Normie is a spectrum. ASSFAGGOTS is normie-bait. It has been the go-to game for normalfags for many many years. Maybe it has changed in recent years due to increases in brainrot, but LoL and Dota are very normie-centric.
>>722768812People don't likely winany Apex or Fortnite matches. The probability simply isn't there.I don't think your reply takes into account how stimulating (that whole body intensity) RTS are, not to mention the first and third person potential.Who likes the Fatboy? Post your favorite units.
>>722770358For me it's the naval units in general, very sexyUEF ones specifically
>>722768812>Normies do not sit in place and play one video game for their entire SaturdayVideo games are the most experienced and profitable media, as far as I'm aware; I'm sure normies absolutely play some games all day.>>722770358>winanyWin many*.
>>722751413With this as a starting pointIt's a fairly simple game and matches are not that long for RTS standards, perfect for retarded ADHD normies
>>722770590>Video games are the most experiencedHeh?
>>722751413It doesn't seem like the modern playerbase has the patience for an RTS, so you're probably stuck appealing to older generations. That unfortunately means you have to invest a lot into game design, which modern publishers don't want to do such you'd be stuck with indie devs. The one upside is you could probably get away with less expensive graphics if the rest of the game was quality.
>>722768812>because they will not keep playing if they lose too oftenThat’s actually not true. Normalfags will just quit in general. The skimmer box match making systems used in games like call of duty isn’t designed to attract as many normalfags as possible, it’s designed to capture whales. The big spenders. It’s like a casino. Sure, you want to ATTRACT as many people as possible to give yourself a higher chance at capturing the whales, but you’re really fine tuning the actual money making for the guy that spends thousand and thousands and thousands an HOUR not the normalfag spending $100 playing blackjack once a decade. In fact you can see this with concurrent counts. Despite the video game industry exploding call of duty match making pre Skinner box free win free loss fuckery had way more concurrent players.
>>722770497>Play on Dual Gap like always.>RNG gives me -- playing Seraphim, as always -- navy slot.>Get a Cybran engy from a teammate or opponent.>Pop out a few destroyers and wreck land.>Pop legs and walk on land if I need to.>Go back to rushing Seraphim T3 subs.I fucking love Cybran navy, and HARMS are godly.
>>722768812>because they will not keep playing if they lose too oftenThat's like, every fucking human being on Earth. You genuinely have to be mentally broken to enjoy losing over and over again
>>722770817More popular than movies/TV and such.
>>722771081It’s the other way around, most people don’t give a fuck, someone above even posted the example of battle royales being mostly losses
>>722768812Is this shit chatGPT? Moba faggotry is like the most normalfag bait there is
>>722771196Because new players keep replacing the ones that quit
>>722770851The PC gaming demographic was some 900M, like, 10 or 15 years ago. I think it would be easy to get everybody into RTS, but there are plenty of people to go around. Games just started getting 1M concurrent, and that's on PC.
>>722753087>when playing DotA or whatever you can just brain off in the support lane or whatever, even when you're the carry there's still downtime. but in RTS there is always more to do than can be done and you have to do it all or the other player will just stomp you. it's not fun. it's exhausting.>>722753229>Or better yet just go full macro and let the player be a prime minister, making high level strategic decisions without worrying about micromanagement at allThe generational difference on gameplay expectations cannot be overstated. Like these anons said, the desire for a traditional RTS just isn't there.With the popularity of idle games and auto battlers and such, plus considering the advancements in AI, a modern RTS that's popular with younger gamers would probably have units automatically controlled by AI with the option to manual take control and the player making other macro decisions like building buildings. Or some other system to reduce the mental load on the player.
>>722751637are you like buyin everything that has anime theme to it?
>>722769341To expand more on missions.Your missions have a main objective. However, you can complete or ignore, secondary objectives, and even hidden ones. For example, you need to disable a bioweapon factory - that is primary objective. However, you can capture it. That allows you to get a bioweapon, so a weapon upgrade, or protection from said bioweapon, thus rendering it useless when enemy attacks you with it. Secondary objective may be that you dont have enough armor units, so you want to capture enemy war factories and supply stations to get yourself tanks/apcs. If you do, you can get to make/field an enemy unit, or a discount on unit production in subsequent missions. You may even get a vanguard of several of said units in your next mission. Or you may destroy the war factories, thus making enemy not being able to produce one or the other unit type (like making enemy scud launchers not being able to launch anthrax missiles and disabling toxin truck production and availability of anthrax gamma upgrade). You can also capture and sell them, thus getting a fixed bonus money and timed income in missions of your choice.Another example is that capturing enemy production building allows you to make a new unit type. For example, as GLA you can capture chinese or US airfield and in next mission make those janky buzzer 1-seat helicopters that lob grenades ar ground units and bigger, heavier ones that have improvised missile launchers and toxin bombs.Stuff like this makes campaigns very much replayable and enjoyable.
>>722756728My first RTS was Dune II on the Sega Genesis. Still probably one of the best implementations of RTS on consoles?Maybe taking inspiration from that would be more appealing for modern players. It's certainly a lot simpler but that makes it work well for consoles or even mobile.
>>722751413>weHey tourist, r/gaming is 2 sites over
Rogue like RTS deck builder
>>722770358>fatboyI'd like a sparky-boy. A Fatboy that does not have naval guns and factory production, but is instead armed with ultra-heavy dual plasma cannons or railguns that can take two-shot (if lucky) big experimental units.
>>722771461>the desire for a traditional RTSNobody's tried since, like 2010. StarCraft is not a reasonable definition for "traditional RTS".You can't refute how much more intense playing a quality RTS is than, e.g., a MOBA.
>>722767867This is an interesting perspective. Since multi-tasking is such a big part of traditional RTS gameplay, it really sounds like you're onto something there. In fact, could a MOBA be described as an RTS with the multi-tasking removed?It's hard to think of how to remove multi-tasking from classic RTS gameplay though, unless it's something like automating everything the player isn't interacting with at the moment so you don't have to worry about anything when you look away from it.
>>722772080>Nobody's tried since, like 2010. StarCraft is not a reasonable definition for "traditional RTS".Tempest Rising did.
>>722751413the best beginner rts's are WC3 and DoW. But the biggest problem with RTS games is the same problem with MMOs and WoW. The players. Far too many sweaty games that require a great deal of time spent to master, are FILLED with tryhard spergs who LOVE to pubstomp, and don't understand the concept of 'good sportsmanship'. Everytime i try to play an rts i actually like online, i get harrassed within 30seconds by someone metagaming and sending weak units to harrass and interfere with my work, i don't get to play the way i like. Just like MMO players are mostly gold farming chinks and insufferable trannies+redditors, the players make the game shit and unfun.
>>722769341>And for corporate cock-suckers who want money and ask "how the fuck all of the above is going to make us insta-rich?" - go fellate a shotgun and suck it so hard you suckstart it. Make a decent product first, and then you can sell as much new content for it as you can make.Everything you said sounds like the correct way to make a QUALITY game, but as you mentioned not a PROFITABLE one. The current market has shown profitability can be completely separated from quality, so no publisher is going to pay for a game like this to be made.You'd be relying on Indie devs to make a game like this, and that's incredibly unlikely because that's beyond of the scope of most Indie devs and they'd have to be like big RTS fans in it for making a good game more than turning a profit.
>>722772229>The players.That doesn't make sense since RTS is a single player genre.
>>722771081Considering how modern predictive algorithms/AI is going, I feel like a good solution to this is having an interactive AI that pretends to be a person lose to the player every so often. I know some mobile games have AIs pretending to be other people like Mario Kart Tour, though I don't know if they lose on purpose.Like AI art, this seems like the kind of thing people would be really upset with at first but that won't stop companies from doing it and it'll probably be the future.
>>722772353I mean, how hard can it be to slap together a game like C&C Generals + C&C3 with some upgrades here and there? The main point is to make a decent foundation first - as in the core of the game. Content - missions, armies, skins, scenarios can come later (and be what is monetised). The main thing is the core gameplay. With game like Tempest Rising and a bunch of others that popped out before and recently, surely it is possible to do it.
>>722772090I dont know about entirely removed, but certainly reduced heavily while prioritizing other aspects of rts gameplay such as micro, unit (or hero in this case) composition, build (or buy) orders, map control, playing for different power spikes at different timings, etc. And mobas ended up being 1000x more successful than the most popular rts.As for solutions, i think the macro/micro dynamic needs to be segregated in some way to make online play even remotely palatable to normies. Maybe players take turns switching between stages of base defense and unit offensive, maybe an asymmetrical 2v2 experience where 1 player cobtrols unit prpduction and the other the units themselves, idk.
>>722772751>I mean, how hard can it be to slap together a game like C&C Generals + C&C3 with some upgrades here and there?If it were that easy, then you would do it. A quick search turned up estimates that the budget for each C&C game was 1-2 million dollars, and development costs have only gone up from there and so has inflation. You'd probably be looking at something like a 5 million dollar budget to make such a game. That's far outside the budget that most indie developers can do, and although it's chump change for major studios they don't want to spend $5 million on an RTS game that might make $10 million, they want to spend $5 million on a mobile gatcha game that makes $100 million.
>>722752695It's okay to be wrong
>>722772090Your average RTS is essentially a collection of minigames (train a villager, build a house, scout the enemy, lure a boar). It's fundamentally similar to time management games like Papa's Pizzeria where you do multiple things at the same time and you're trying to execute them as perfectly as possible.
>>722752695> anything > SupcomThat doesn't say much
>>722759921
>>722756728>normies will only play games on consolesEverybody has a PC, and games started hitting about 1M concurrent on PC. I just don't think console games get that much, delegating those numbers to MMOs.
>>722772807What do you think about an RTS that leans more towards the tower defense and MOBA direction? Here's what I'm thinking:>Resources automatically generated over time, maybe with buildings giving more like Plants and Zombies' sunflowersThis way players don't have to worry about resource gathering, beyond maybe "build a building to increase the rate of resources">Defensive structures like towers are automatedThis is actually automatically done in most RTSes anyway, so it's standard for the genre>Unit production is automated and units attack automaticallyThis is like in Tower Defense games such as Bloons with the enemies automatically coming through your defenses. Basically each player would be the Tower Defense opponent of the other.>Hero units are controlled manually.Like in MOBAs the game would be hero-centric with those being the only unit the players could directly control. Maybe just 1 if multi-tasking is too much of a problem but maybe up to 3.>Players build buildings.This becomes the main player interaction with the game besides controlling heroes. The player decides where to play defensive buildings and the offensive unit-producing buildings. There could still be RTS building dependencies (like needing a blacksmith building to build a more advanced building that produces better units, or buildings providing upgrades to units) and things like adjacency bonuses to give a macro strategy layer.Then you have a game that is technically Real Time Strategy but the only interaction the player needs to do is choose when and where to build buildings and control 1-3 hero units.
>>722772495>RTS is a single player genre.PvP games are the vastly more popular games. That applies to RTS too.Are Seraphim T2 PD any good? Rate PDs.
>>722771081Tolerance to loss depends on the stakes, skill requirement and match intensity/length. Losing after 30 minutes of doing your best because of one small mistake makes people angry enough to smash their walls. Losing in a casual game of Prophunt only makes them laugh as they go for another round. RTS against randoms is a stressful genre for seriously chill people. Or actual masochistic freaks, like you said.
Normalfags play RTS only for campaigns where they can just mindlessly beat retarded easy AI.Now they moved on to 4x and total war (devs make shit ai in total war on purpose now).You don't want normalfags in RTS. Look at RTS threads for example.
>>722773974>PvP games are the vastly more popular games.r0fl
>>722774452>he posted it againNo one cares about COD audience. RTS were FOTM genre of the past. No your don't need to pretend liking them.It's only natural for real RTS enjoyers to play PVP because it is the only place where strategy, tactics and game mechanics actually exist and matter.
>>722774723>No one cares about COD audience.No one cares about playing pvp against pablo2007 :(Enjoy your stormgate
>>722773974>>722774452This is a good example of the different between the RTS playerbase and the broader market. The most played games that we can actually track (meaning on Steam) are PVP games like MOBAs and FPSes, so >>722773974 is correct there. But the numbers in >>722774452 are from a poll that was done specifically for RTS players. So the RTS fan mindset isn't the same as the broader market. That means trying to make a modern RTS be financially successful a real challenge.
Supcom is probably the least normie-friendly RTS there is, retard.
>>722774241I think, moreso, is not knowing what you did wrong. That can be mediated pretty easily even without in-game tutorials, moreso if the game has replays, by playing team games and asking for help. Apex and Fortnite have long games though, often with little interesting happening. That should say a lot about tolerance, and the potential of RTS.
>>722774810Thanks. You can always pick another FOTM FOMO genre for clout and circlejerk. Try 4x for example. They were specially made for your kind.
>>722775152How about I pick a genre that has RA2 in it?
>>722774452>>722774837Are there even any numbers for that poll? Plus, who's going to play singleplayer content after they finish it, or skirmish after they figure out the winning strategy? You can't refute the popularity of multiplayer games: See concurrent users and top-concurrent records.
>>722775248>numbersOh, I guess that's the 0-4000? If so, that's still not that much.
>>722775240Just play RA2 again. If you're in RTS for campaigns why would you want franchise to be milked like Halo? The RA story is basically finished and don't need new games. Let it go.
>>722773223>>722774723>>722774927I can't really think of another game than FA that's so intense, except EVE Online (of which, PvP bouts -- the intensity -- are only a few, rare minutes at a time).
>>722775604>Just play RA2 againk
>>722775823Everyone is happy now.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS? Step 1: Stop making charts crammed with your favorite RTS or the already well-known ones.Just because you like some shit doesn't mean it's approachable.And anyone interested enough to even listen to suggestion probably already got recommended SC2/AoE2/etc, and didn't click with them.>Supreme Commander FA is probably newbies' best first gameOkay nevermind, you are fucking retarded and/or delusional.Recommending SupCom to RTS newbies is like recommending getting gangbanged by draft horses to someone asking if you know some remedy for back pains. The conversion rate is not going to be pretty.
>>722753043River Towns but military?
>>722775604>If you're in RTS for campaigns why would you want franchise to be milked like Halo?Who the fuck are you quoting?
>>722776005>The RA story is basically finished and doesn't need new games.
>>722751527>As long as new RTS prioritize APM retardsAPM only exist in the head of retards.Play any other fucking game and count your inputs.I can guarantee even the most basic-ass shooter/platformer will be in the same ballpark of APM than competitive gookclick.APM is a made up problem, by people who just don't want to try (or tried and sucked really fucking hard but needed to find something "not their fault" to blame).
>>722775985>Recommending SupCom to RTS newbies is like recommending getting gangbanged by draft horsesSupCom was normalfag tier game on release tho.
>>722776090Did>>722775240say that or was it your schizo brain arguing with itself?
>>722751637Working on it.I'm broke and starved for free time tho, so I hope you are patient.I think Touhou recently released an RTS however.
>>722751413Make something that's mostly a city builder with RTS elements. The casual RTS audience wasn't into sweating hourlong PvP matches, they were into playing skirmish with comfy base building.
>>722751413Normies like Red Alert 2 and Total WarSimple, casual and easy to play.The rest are too sweaty/autistic with a billion units and upgrades to pick.
>>722775985Are you thinking 1v1? Because most people are going to play team games. What do you think is so challenging? I don't want to undermine the variety: depth of the game -- arty, tac missiles, drops, etc., can be really hard on first experiences, but watching a few of your own replays can easily redefine personal efficacy, not to mention getting help from teammates, only playing specific maps and slots, and watching some tutorials (which can specifically be extremely entertaining for players getting really enthralled in the micro, especially, macro, and lore).
>>722775985>gangbanged by draft horses that sounds awesome tho
>>722751413the best would be something like coh2, dawn of war 1, or the various Eugen games. it's a lot of action without much basebuilding or resource collection.
>>722751413>let's make a game as casual as possible for normiesno>i want to push random people into hobbies they don't like just causewhy would this be a good idea?double no
>>722776276You need to read reply chain anon. Let me explain the core problem. I know how to play RTS. I can into multitasking which is basic of RTS pvp gameplay. Because I can play RTS, the campaigns in this genre for me are nothing but a movies. Literally movie games without any interesting gameplay. And as movies they're pretty shit and can't compete with real AAA moviegames. PVP is the real gameplay for me. The juice. The soul. This is where you can see real strategy, tactic, mechanics and difference between RTS games.Casual normalfags don't know how to play RTS. They're not here for mechanics or strategy. They want to chill. This is why they demand campaigns - the gameplay where you don't need to learn how to play the game. FOTM FOMO dadgamer core. And they're pretty aggressive to us, Real RTS enjoyers, because we can play real game - PVP. As part of /v/ - Video Games True Gamers Gang it's my duty to protect /v/ from casuals and funtards. They're pure evil.
>>722778235>You need to read reply chain anon.Then show the reply where it is even implied that this guy wanted new RA.
Don't fall for the comp meme anons. I've seen where it leads. It leads nowhere.
Reality isI don't give a fuck about other people not playing RTSFuck them
>>722774954>long games, often with little interesting happeningAh, but these boring moments is when you get to catch your breath. RTS is constant action, tho. If you ever find yourself doing nothing, it means you could and should be doing something.
>>722778317I know what I want.
>>722778739Oh shit, this isn't it. You want to try again or will you just open wide?
>>722777913You're not really countering how intense that even team games are, how objectively fun the genre is and can much more be.Hey, /v/, what would you want from an RTS MMO?
>>722778838OH shit my bad. Sorry bussy multyboxing 30 EVE online accounts. APM is too high.
>>722765359Normalfaggots are not intelligent enough to control their own lives, why do you think they would enjoy simulations where they have to control lives of fictional characters by commanding them in battle?
>>722778235>Because I can play RTS, the campaigns in this genre for me are nothing but a movies.Isn't there something to be said about how few players play CoD SP? It's a shooter; how do you expect them to get into an RTS campaign? I don't really like campaigns either, obviously, even though RTS' would probably be more fun than CoDs', and I think skirmishes can be pretty cheesy (SupCom 2 AI is pretty good), so I would focus advertisement on multiplayer . . . Maybe get pulse or even EEG metrics or something.
>>722779235You can learn any skill or playstyles in an hour or few.
>>722779924Learning a strategy game from scratch is a matter of weeks just to get started.
>>722780297>Learning a strategy game from scratch is a matter of weeks just to get started.
>>722779924Maybe if you spent your whole life playing videogames. Most people out there would fail utterly at being able to strafe and shoot simultaneously and the idea of a crouch jump would utterly stump them because they are husks devoid of imagination and the notion of their virtual avatar having feet it can pick up to fly through a hole mid-air is utterly alien to their minds.
>>722780565Take a total normie, tell him to play with mouse and keyboard - his mind is already being blown. It'll take him a whole day to get comfortable just moving units around.
>>722780917I mean if you're gonna use an example of an utter total failure of a man then yeah it's gonna take years of evolutive changes
>>722781071Yeah, we only have a whole board full of losers who played vidya for a lifetime and never got good.
>>722780912People learned Apex all over while it still had a lot of movement tech. For actual fights, that's a lot of APM, especially if you count shooting as dense APM.
>>722779816Shooters have no barriers. Anyone can play them immideadly. Developing multytasking rts skill when you command multiple units in multiple battles while building a base + ordering a new units without even thinking is a giant barrier. It's why moba are so popular. RTS are like fighting games. "The passage of time plays" big role too. Back in old days everyone played arena shooters. Playing arena shooter was something natural. But when genre dies so does ability to play it. Same for rts.Campaigns are still necessary because they give your factions a character. You want to reach pve-pvp equilibrium.
>>722782137God uef tier 3 fighter is so sexy
>>722780912>>722782157I'll admit that MOBAs can take dozens, if not hundreds of hours to fully learn, because they need to play and experience each character, but that's a pro for (including how quickly they can learn) RTS.
>>722751413I'm not a normie and I don't care about RTS.Never will. The genre was fun as a child but I don't have time to play this incel shit in 2025.
>>722759921Starcraft 2 coop is more popular than 1v1I bet custom games in sc1 and wc3 were more popular too
>>722783129I'm curious how does CS or DOTA first experience looks for anons who never played them before? I still remember>q14 q43 F3 2 F3 3 F3 4 F3 5 F1F2F1F2spamHell everyone at schools and entire neighborhood knew what 42 and 43 mean
>>722783338Do you have a source for that?
>>722783213>incel shitIt's CHUD kino
>>722751413Just make a game with a decent single-player campaign, it's not complicated, even a turn based map where you do skirmish battles goes a long way
I've been playing rts games since 1996 so I don't understand the obsession with being able to rotate the camera or zoom out really far. in all of the games I played I just accepted that the camera was the way it was, like how you can't see your feet in a fps. where does this desire come from?
>>722751413i remember playing some old free rts on the windows store or somethingi forgot the namewish i could play again
>>722784965>in all of the games I played I just accepted that the camera was the way it was, like how you can't see your feet in a fps. where does this desire come from?Not being stuck in a technical limitation feels good mang
>>722784965There's too much going on in SupCom to have a static view. You can even split into two different halves of your screen or can dual screen.
Play FAF white man.
>>722785690found it, warzone 2100anyone else play it?
zoomers/alpha gen etc. literally don't know how to play anything that isn't an analog stick / wasd game moving with a mouse is alien to them dead genre >>722784052back in the day, after the ps1 phase (crash, spyro, mk, worms etc), I got into PCs caffees I exclusively played CS 1.5/6 and CoD 2 I saw warcraft 3 as gay kiddie game then I tried it a few years later and that's all I played for a decade (multiplayer)
>>722786581I'm a zoomer and I quite enjoy point and click games.
>>722784965if camera is too zoomed in, wc3 for example, it just feels nauseating and bad overall to this day wc3 camera zoom out cheat is the only hack I ever used
>>722786615point and click is not the same as click to move + camera management like in RTS
>>722786791I also like click to move + camera movement as well.
>>722786865>>722786615You are a diamond in the rough then. Please have kids.
>>722786438I got a copy of this from a flea store, like a decade or two ago. I was surprised to learn it was popular. You can edit the units.
>>722786438>>722786947>released 1999>devs still updating it to this day (last update sep 2025)how do they do it?
>>722786865a zoomer can be 29old zoomers dont count
>>722786581>that isn't an analog stick / wasd gameMOBAs aren't WASD.
>>722787013It's a good thing I'm not an old zoomer then?
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?I don't think you do and I don't think you want to. Everything the normalfag masses touch, gets diluted and casualized until hardly anything of its original essence remains. I think it would be nice if RTS games were a bit more popular than they currently are, but not at the normalfag / braindead casual level.I also don't think the DotA clone players are going to be interested in RTS, at all. I don't see why people keep making this association, but DotA & its ilk are not similar or close in gameplay at all. Yes, even though DotA started out as a WC3 map. They only share a control scheme, everything else in the gameplay basics is way different. I can only assume nobody fucking plays video games here and as such has not played DotA and has not played RTS games, so that's where this entirely braindead association comes from. People interested in having 1 hero with like 4 abilities and a few items aren't going to be interested in controlling large armies, managing bases and production, or expanding and defending their economy. These genres are not the same at all.As for how RTS can draw more than niche attention nowdays and get some new people interested, I think there's no clear or simple answer. The RTS genre is hard, it's one of the most demanding out there and this doesn't make it appealing to outsiders. The AI is often bad, outright cheats or is very obviously scripted, which makes the genre unable to show its strength in SP. The leaning towards MP and competitiveness in such a hard genre further alienates new blood.I think the only chance is to appeal with things other than core gameplay at surface level. Get people in for other reasons (world, setting, characters, story, etc.) and maybe some will stick around for the core game later, once they got their feet wet. Perhaps some high-budget RPG / RTS hybrid with a really, really good campaign could do it, but nobody is putting up that kind of money for RTS nowadays.
>>722752309>Post your favorite strats.I call it the cockroach. I just sort of scuttle around and cause problems. Build exactly 1 jester to try to bait them in to building air defenses they won't need, tac missile snipe their mexes, build MMLs to force missile defense and then reclaim them to build tanks instead, build that UEF shoulder drone minute 1 to troll your engies. Just kinda be a pain until someone squishes me. Usually my team is ready to win by then.>but what about 1v1Same except I lose.
>>722787070>I don't think you do and I don't think you want to. Everything the normalfag masses touch, gets diluted and casualized until hardly anything of its original essence remains. I think it would be nice if RTS games were a bit more popular than they currently are, but not at the normalfag / braindead casual level.
>>722787031mobas arent popular with youngsters you retard only exception is the gooklands
what do you think of c&c renegade? it's not a RTS but since it's a spinoff from an RTS series i think it should be discussed here. i barely see anyone discuss it and it was a neat little game when i played it years back
>>722787328All I remember about Renegade back in the day is disappointment, because I REALLY wanted it to be Battlezone: C&C edition but it wasn't even close.
>>722787452I really enjoyed Nuclear Dawn for the year or so I could get full games. Like the only game to ever give you a class with a minigun and have it actually be accurate.
>>722787070>Everything the normalfag masses touch, gets diluted and casualized until hardly anything of its original essence remains.That's why you have a dev studio that knows what's good.>DotA & its ilk are not similar or close in gameplay at allI don't think this is true. It's more, but not that much more, because you can only control one screen full at a time, plus heroes like a commander are an option, experimentals, etc.>>722787145They're some of the most played games. See the various mentions of 12M hours per day each, for the top 2.
>>722787452>Battlezoneby Activision right? just checking
>>722787632>Nuclear DawnHoly fuck you just reminded me of that game. It's been in the back of my brain for a while now and you dug it up. I wish there were more like it, fps/rts games>for the year or so I could get full gameswhat, you can only get half a game now?
>>722787649>I don't think this is true. It's more, but not that much morePlease go play 3 matches of DotA 2 and then 3 matches of AoE4 or whatever other modern but classical in design RTS is still active and try saying this shit again. They are nothing alike, they do not play anything alike, they are not enjoyed for the same reasons and they cannot be enjoyed in the same way. The statement is extremely retarded, it's like saying Gone Home is the same as Quake because they're both 1st person and you move around by pressing buttons on the keyboard. Maybe you could get the Gone Home players into Quake multiplayer?>>722787905Yeah, that one.
>>722787649only League is popular, mostly with asians (dying fast in the west), with dota in distant second, only really popular in select few countries/regions, like CISeverything else is dead in the water and never shows up in any charts (smite, hots, hon, paragon etc) so no, definitely not "most played games"
>>722788125Last time I tried there wasn't any live servers, but for a good while there were a couple servers that would be full on a friday/saturday night.It was such a fucking fun game man, I've genuinely considered trying to blackmail every nerd I know in to a server to play it.
the problem with rts games is that they are hard to play well. now lots of other genres are hard to play well too, but strategy games in general have a significant audience of midwits who see themselves as modern alexanders and think they should be good at strategy games just by virtue of being "intelligent." strategy game developers are aware of this audience and make games easy so players can feel smart about beating them. even ones that are supposed to be "challenging" will either allow save scumming or have some easily abusable strategy so bad players can discover it from a jewtube video and feel smart about using it to beat the game.multiplayer removes the training wheels and forces players to face the fact that they're bad. of course their ego doesn't want to accept that they're bad, so they will come up with excuses how the game isn't strategic or the other player only won because he was "gookclicking." even if you have good skill based matchmaking so you are never forced to play against "tryhards" if you don't want to, the fact that the game has demoted them to wood league is unacceptable to these players. they will never be satisfied unless you remove all competitive aspects or else keep the game so nice that no competitive scene ever develops for it.
>>722784965I want every game to control like forged alliance where I can instantly zoom in or out as far as I want.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?Romantic answer:Fun campaign and co-op and/or big team games like 16v16. Realistic answer:RTS is inherently anti normie. so if you really want a normie popular tier RTS you are going to have to set it up with cultural momentum that makes normies into the IP beforehand, have it look like a modern game but also work on average PC.
>>722787328Great game if you like single-player. Multiplayer is also neat, however it died very quickly. There is a stand-alone game in Unreal engine though, it may still have active multiplayer.
>>722788246My go-to for the comparison is SupCom FA.>>722788319You can't refute time played per day.
>>722788929>You can't refute time played per daywtf are you even talking about
IDGAF about normies getting into RTS, a good RTS is inherently a gatekeep and that's good.However it's also hard to do a good RTS. There's several systems and designs that have to just click and werk before putting one out. One fuckup and disintegrates the whole gameplay and fanbase.
>>722767867>>722772090I have been saying this since forever.>nly a small fraction of people, estimated at around 2% to 2.5%, can truly multitask effectively, a phenomenon referred to as "supertasking". For most of the population (about 98%), what appears to be multitasking is actually rapid task-switching, which is inefficient, reduces productivity, increases errors, and can lead to stress and fatigue.emphasis on that last part>can lead to stress and fatigue.when a game requires people to multi task a large percentage of people (but not 98%) will actually have mini panic attacks like they are having a stroke and they will freeze up. I figured this out by watching souls players play through souls games and seeing how guys i thought were very smart would freeze up when thy ha to deal with more than 1 enemy on the screen, this was particularly telling with Lords of the Fallen because the game was more about strategy and tactics than pure rollsop and some of the supposedly skilled souls players i was watching would become babbling retards when they had to fight 3 regular enemies at once becuase they couldnt think on their feet or multi task.RTS tests almost every skill set a gamer can have and one of those skills is multi tasking which is inherently anti normie. I know of some work around for this that dont dumb down RTS too much but they arent amazing, its whatever.
Can't normify RTS without destroying the core appeal of RTS in the first place
>>722788532im quite good at strategy and tactics but my APM sucks. I did very well at starcraft 2 but eventually hit a wall where my APM just couldnt keep up when doing macro builds and i was obviously losing games because i couldnt be fast enough managing my units (around master league).I dont think there is anything wrong with being filtered after a certain point because of APM as long as its not brood war levels of bullshit APM focused, fuck that game desu (i still enjoy brood war BGH games)
>>722788532>they will come up with excuses how the game isn't strategic or the other player only won because he was "gookclicking."It's at once fascinating and disconcerting how these people are entirely blind to what "real time" in "real time strategy" means. They somehow do not realize that time is a resource in these games and that you have to use your time more effectively than the opponent uses his. It's also strange how they complain and whine about skill expression in these games, when nobody else in no other genre seems to have a problem with their games allowing skill expression and indeed requiring skill.
>>722784965Watch a few casts and tell me it's not extremely advantageous to be able to view the whole map and any specific area in a few seconds. How else are you supposed to know what's going on, scout, etc.? Other RTS are extremely less efficate to experience. I refuse to play them, and I suspect others should as well to a much more favorable option. Can you imagine trying to macro while microing an experimental or two as the most important units in the game at the time?
>>722788985The millions of hours that each of the top 2 games are played per day.
>>722788792>you are going to have to set it up with cultural momentum that makes normies into the IP beforehandDoes anyone in the thread know how successful Halo Reach was? This anon seems correct that having an RTS spinoff of an existing franchise would be a way to get a playerbase, though how long they'd stick around is anyone's guess.
>>722771065Don't forget the stealth-field support ships my boy, oh yes.
>>722789307I've really only played single player RTS, never got into multi-player because I knew my APS would suck. Do you think there's any way to make macro decisions and higher level strategy matter more, or is a high enough APS always going to win in the end?
>>722771065>>722789986Cybran RAS support commanders are perhaps the most important units in the game. They can support a whole economy if your base gets bombed; spamming them while having a base up can approach 1,000 mass per second (a Monkeylord in 19 seconds); and they have extremely good and tanky build power to make FOBs.You also can't forget about engineering stations.
>>7227897401) it's advantageous to a spectator that is just watching the game. it's not as advantageous to someone trying to actually control your shit which is now ant sized.2) if you need a big picture look of the battlefield that's what the minimap is for. when you zoom out as far as I see some people doing you are basically just full screening your minimap.>Can you imagine trying to macro while microing an experimental or two as the most important units in the game at the time?how is that any different from macroing while doing a reaver drop in starcraft or macroing while fighting mangonels in aoe?
>>722789890are you looking at steam charts and thinking mobas are popular because dota 2 is #2? lmao
>>722789307>>722790376if you can type 60 wpm that's close to 200 apm. even if you consider that your right hand on the mouse is going to be slower than typing even 100 apm is enough to play any rts below pro level. your apm isn't your problem, your ability to multitask is. if you set a camera to record your hands while you play you would see that there are periods of several seconds at a time where you aren't doing anything.
>>722790376 You can google some "challenges" where MLGpros play AoE2 on fresh account with low apm on purpose. The matchmaking system I think is already perfected in AoE2 and blizzard rts. You always play against opponents of your weight. And those games have solid playerbase so you can paly 24/7. This sadly doesn't apply to some cool rts like Wargame where the player population is so low you will be kicked out of matches (no one want to play against noobs)
>>722751413You can't.The traditional RTS format is fundamentally just too long and time consuming, and thus doesn't lend itself to short spontaneous sessions that the casual consumer wants. There's also the issue of monotony, with every round beginning with a fairly uneventful and rigid "setup" phase (build, econ, scout) that's poison to the casual gamer.Just accept that your genre is a niche one, and be happy with that.
>>722790376>Do you think there's any way to make macro decisions and higher level strategy matter more,Yeah i think there is. Have unit AI and unit commands so they will do something automatically when you are arent managing them directly.Zero-k does a decent job of it, units will have AI so they will try and play to their strengths when you arent managing them example: the small and fast unit that is good at dodgeing will try and dodge enemy fire instead of just standing there when you arent looking. Its not as good at dodging as a player but good enough the unit isnt completely useless when you are looking away. Also you can set up buildings to "repeat" their queue so they automatically start building a new unit after they are finished, even setting up build orders like 'build 4 marines, then build 2 flame guys, then repeat'you could do other stuff, you could even have some races use these features and others dont so they require different skill sets and have playstyles that feel very different.
>>722753427why do you keep bringing up MOBA. MOBA has nothing in common with RTS.
>>722791025if i go over 120 apm i start getting clicks that arent registering and it feels clunky
>>722790376Actually i want to chime on thisMy APM sucks but I manage by game knowledge and applying decisive actions on my opponents. It works mostly on AoEs and a fair bit on SC. Not that much on the latter because SC isn't actually a strategy game but a rythm game and it is so rigid it doesn't matter if you plan ahead or not that much.
>>722791380>MOBA has nothing in common with RTSwhat a retarded thing to say literally a sister genre, they are the only games that have the exact same control scheme at least dota doesthat guy is still retarded for bringing up his random hours played stat that he read who knows where
>>722773810Thats interesting, its like a MOBA but you build all the lanes and towers yourself? Its definitely something I could see people playing, but I have no idea if something that open design wise would result in anything fun. I think you also wouldnt even have to automate resource gathering, you could need to have some kind of incentive for map control and I think you could integrate a resource system into your idea that wouldnt require any micro-managing. My idea was more like stronghold crusader but turn-based, where one player takes the role of beseiging the others base, swapping between rounds inbetween which they can make decisions to reinforce their future army by building more training/resource buildings or further increase their defences.
>>722790729You don't usually control your units from all the way zoomed out, but you can double click on a unit or building type to select all of them according to how zoomed in you are. It's massively more efficient. How else would you select all of your ASFs (T3 interceptors) that are spread all over the map, or any other set of units?>>722790493
>>722790784I've literally clarified "top 2 MOBAs" every time I've mentioned hours played. Not a refutation.
>>722791107MOBAs are regularly 40 minutes; and smaller RTS maps can be played in 10-15 minutes (5km on SupCom FA).Startups can be quick too. Even, sped up gamespeed exists.
>>722792084>random stat used outside of any context, that he found who knows where nothing to refute, you're just retarded
>>722791985>How else would you select all of your ASFs (T3 interceptors) that are spread all over the map, or any other set of units?well pretty much any game made after 1998 will let you put them in a control group, and even in starcraft you can just put them in multiple control groups.
>>722791320You can queue up movements and attacks (and patrols, reclaims, ferries, etc.).
>>722791772>that guy is still retarded for bringing up his random hours played stat that he read who knows whereSteamcharts.com.
RTS genre still has potential. Zoomers are not soulless golems. Corporate overlords just want to turn them into brainless slop eaters for big profits. Some complex games got popular among zoomers because of assessable tutorials and memes. Tutorials are the weakest parts of some video games genres. Old microprose sim games from golden age of sim games had pretty stellar tutorials for example. With modern technology it is possible to make fun and engaging multiplayer tutorial mode that will turn John elden ring into multi tasking god. This is untouched territory. Someday in 2050 it will happen. Trust the plan.
>>722792346That's the daily DOTA 2 hours. MOBAs are played more than you realized; face it.
>>722791772>same control schemeEver played an old school action rpg or adventure game? Moba aren't even exclusive to top down mouse control gameplay, retard.
>>722792668>>722792846you don't seem to comprehend that steam is not a popular place for multiplayer games non of the top MP games are on steam that aren't valves fortnite alone shits on CS and dota in terms of playerbase league has like x15 the playerbase dota has, mostly from asia tho roblox alone hits more concurrent players than the entire steam so your entire premise of comparing numbers, or your autistic cherry pick of hours played, is completely moot>>722792951>faggot thinks RTS control scheme is just top down clicking what a fucking retard lmao so diablo plays like rts huh? kys
>>722785952I think thats another problem normies have with RTS, although its just part of the larger problem I noted earlier with mulitasking; the minimap. Nobody sane is going to figure out that you need to be looking at the minimap just as often if not more when its usually relegated to some shitty tiny corner of the screen, and if they do figure that out they arent going to like it. This is more of a design UI problem than a mechanical one, but theres also having something to be said about a game where you have all the info you need (including knowing that you dont know something) on screen at all times.
>>722751413Normie friendly features:Entire map should fit in one screenAutomated production(can also be set to produce until a specific amount is reached)No active spellcasters, replace them with passive aura unitsMost units should be able to attack while moving, but it should slow them down(the more range they have, the more they get slowed down)Static defense should be extremely strongResources on the map should never run out(you can mine the same base forever)
>>722793662That seems like a very good point, but what's the solution? Putting the minimap anywhere but a corner or similar obstructs the main view. Maps could be small enough that players can always see the whole map at once, but it seems like that would be crippling to level design since everything would be so cramped.
>>722751413Custom units instead of army man vs space fags vs biomutants
>>722753087Dota at the highest level is literally a game of constant micro decisions and micro optimisations, sure you can queue for normal and play casually but try playing ranked and not using your brain, you'll get stomped by people who do 9/10 times.
>>722792361That's not reasonable, especially because SC groups are small. You never know when you're going to need however many units where, and SupCom expertly solves this, especially with map zoom. The maps are simply too big, and the units too many and dispersed, to have any less. It's *really* fun.>>722791985
>>722794029who cares tho? ASSFAGGOTS are cancer
>>722791772>this retarded shit againGuess Diablo and Path of Exile is an RTS.
>>722751637Make the resource points gacha loot boxes that you still have to pay money for
>>722793891Not sure honestly. I wonder if something like diablos/path of exiles transparency map would work as a solution, but theres a lot more info you need to know a lot more quickly than in an arpg. At the very least more games should support putting a minimap on a second monitor if you have one.
>>722794221where is the resource management, multiple unit control, camera control, pvp? you braindead retard
>>722793316Still not a refutation -- MOBAs have a huge install base as an example of widely played games that would benefit by switching to a good RTS, to have much more fun, and reward from winning.PS: The control schemes are similar enough to be called similar. Hero units exist. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to be a rush commander in FA, building all the things required to survive and attack?
>>722791772>literally a sister genre, they are the only games that have the exact same control schemeWtf Mario Kart is a flight sim
>>722793316>so diablo is not an rtsthanks for proving my point, that moba is nothing like RTS
>>722794691>MOBAs have a huge install base as an example of widely played games that would benefit by switching to a good RTS, to have much more fun, and reward from winning.Any genre would improve by switching to RTS, fact
>>722794691"mobas" don't have huge install base, only league dota 2 doesn't even have 10m MAU league has 150m MAU for comparison, valorant 30m, cs 30m >>722794838retard of the thread award>>722794951>literally made from rts game and plays exactly the same, minus plus some elementsnevermind, you get the award insteador better yet just share it
>>722793697>Most units should be able to attack while moving, but it should slow them down(the more range they have, the more they get slowed down)I disagree with this; SupCom has a wide range of stats that vary by faction, so some units can range kite because their range is better, but if they were slower, this wouldn't be a relevant stat. You just need to know when to disengage; plus, extremely ranged characters exist, having extremely reduced health, which is probably how the design handles all of it to an extent.I would like to recommend "only having two resources".
>>722794348Oh! I didn't think about a second monitor. That's a very good solution and would be a great option to have, but of course wouldn't do anything for all players without two monitors which I'd guess would be most.
>>722751413Make a great story with good characters people care about first, then build a competent game around that. Basically give people a strong motive and a reason to care about learning to play the genre/game beyond gameplay.Hell Gacha in a way is a great example of this, FGO in particular. People don't play that despite the utter dogshit gameplay, they put up with it just to experience the story and characters they care for.
>>722795418I don't know what League's hours per day are, but you're saying it's more while not refuting the enormity of 12M hours per day. I'm not sure where you're getting your statistics, but they're not lessening the point: A good RTS already exists to pull players if it's advertised and handled properly. People can simply have more fun than, e.g., right clicking dull PvE units for 90% of the game.
There's been a few attempts to dethrone supreme commander but none of them get the pacing and scaling quite right. The thing is I'm not sure how you could improve on supreme commander. There's certainly cool gimmicks I'd like to see in an RTS, supcom with 2100's unit designer. But it would detract from the absolutely perfect pacing of supcom. You could take supcom and make it run on a 24 thread CPU with carmack tier netcode so you can have 50vs50 games like they do over in BAR. That'd be cool I guess. But its just all that technical engine stuff. Practically just a supcom source port at that point not a new game.Maybe the terrain deformation mechanics from perimeter? That'd be pretty cool and might actually fit in the pacing and dynaism of supreme commander. Make these gap of rohan/seton's games that the server listing gets absolutely spammed with, less insufferable.>>722752309Can never go wrong with a sera t2 bot + gun push. Its the workhorse of supcom multiplayer unless FAF nerfed the ilshavoh in which case I am never playing againT2 fighter/bomber snipes have a special place in my heart.I think T1 arty drops are the king of the risk/reward equation. One T1 transport and 6 T1 arty. Chump change. If you get passed the fighter screen you're guaranteed to take down a bunch of mexes which is huge value on its own, but creates an absolute headache for the enemy to deal with. And "if you get passed the fighter screen" isn't even that hard. Most air players lack situational awareness and in a 1v1 you can easily pull the enemy's fighters away from wherever you want the tranny to go.
>>722751413i miss supCom so much its unreal
>>722753087Dota is more like Diablo pvp than RTS. >>722794220>I actually have no idea what I'm talking about, I just remember Dota being a boogeyman because it was made in the WC3 map editor Ah, ok.
>>722756104>It's like comparing them to Diablo>start out weak>level your character>equip items >skill builds I take offense.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?You don't want this. You think you do, but you don't. Also it's normalfag, you normalfag.
>>722751413RTS multiplayer isn't fun. I understand that people who grew up watching Starcraft esports take offense to that.
>>722794107how is using control groups not reasonable?
>>722796169I wasn't aware I could like a game as much as I like SupCom. I played previously some, but one day I reinstalled it and eventually got into how much depth the different units have (speed, turret type -- laser-focused, arced, etc. -- turret rotation rate, range, hover vs. non, amphibious, etc.). Then I got into how much variety it has with all the different units, techs, buildings. Then I got into tutorials, especially micro, watching them for hours.I really only like playing on Dual Gap these days. Newbies should focus this to learn how to eco up quickly (while scouting and paying attention to what everyone's doing) and how to play different slots. A 19 minute Scathis or a 21 minute Mavor or Yolo is hard to do, but it wins games. Same for Seraphim SACU teleports for a nuke defense snipe; I regularly help win games by nuking eco slot.
>>722797685I was saying it's more adrenergic (the shakes), which is whole body, which is extremely memorable and enjoyable.
>>722798973>speed, turret type -- laser-focused, arced, etc. -- turret rotation rate, range, hover vs. non, amphibious, etc.The distinction between the various T1 tanks is remarkable considering they're all basically T1 tanks.Or even the scouts. Its a scout. How much depth could they be? The run around, they scout things, and then they get shot by a T1 tank.. Until you discover the absolute assfuckery that is T1 sera scouts camping mass points while your enemy spams the chat with "WTF ??? MY GAME IS BUGGED I CANT BUILD MEXES???"
i remember when i used to fap to the red alert 3 chicks back then
>>722790729>1) it's advantageous to a spectator that is just watching the game. it's not as advantageous to someone trying to actually control your shit which is now ant sized.>2) if you need a big picture look of the battlefield that's what the minimap is for. when you zoom out as far as I see some people doing you are basically just full screening your minimap.This is the same reasoning that lead to 2 decades of "No diablo clones can't have WASD they just cant okay why do you even want that its faster to click around I do it all the time"
>>722799484diablo doesn't need wasd movement
>>722751413do you really want the normies to come in? Then RTS will need to get mixed with something else like Savage was or make it more action oriented and less focused on economy like Company of heroes or Men of War.I love RTS but having to waste like 3-5 minutes of EVERY fucking start of the match on just making SCVs/Peons/Villagers and just building houses/barracks/walls is extremely boring.Relic did it right on their games where you are already deep entrenched in action in the first minute of the match.
>>722764679>singleplayer onlyand that's a good thing.
>>722798123I was saying that relying on control groups is unreasonable. I don't want to keep making control groups for 100 planes one at a time, especially not in a game with only 1 view + minimap, plus different factory locations (in SupCom you can actually hotkey locations / map views), whatever control group size you would use for experimentals, sniper bots, stationary arty and missiles, nukes, etc. I already use enough groups without having to relegate information and camera view accuracy (caused by only having one view and a minimap). Does your game even have planes with fast movement scouting and engagements?>>722783116
>>722751413Its the age old delayed gratification problem. Why should I spend however long building eco, when other games give me my dopamine now. Or on the flip side, you get APM autism. I don't think either of those extremes appeal to normies these days. >Strategic Launch Detected.
>>722799896Sounds like you just aren't into your RTS. I hate villager macro and age rampup too, but I can 6 engy, 1 transport airdrop for a forward-placed T2 rush all day.
does anybody want to do some sc2 coop? some nice brutal dead of night?
>>722800340>Why should I spend however long building eco, when other games give me my dopamine now.Rush like animal.
>>722800340Again, you can get 10-15 minute games in SupCom FA on 5km sized maps.
>>722792704may the gods read this post and decide to be benevolent to us.
>>722800340MOBAs have huge rampup; I'm not convinced CS has enough going on for it either -- really repetitive. The castability of a good air-sea-land RTS is so much more storytelling.
>>722800029>in SupCom you can actually hotkey locations / map viewsyou can do this in starcraft too. 10 control groups is plenty especially when there's no size limit.
>>722799619>Doesnt need>Needs to not have>Would be more fun>Would be less fun>Would not be more funThe thing is when you say "doesnt need" you're answering one of these. But the only argument against both strategic zoom and wasd is "needs to not have", and "would be less fun". Which doesn't really follow.
>>722802975it's just a pointless tool. aoe2 added zoom out in the definitive edition and literally no one except people casting games uses it.
>>722758278>Tiny dots on a screen and some flashesMight as well just play a text based game that calculates a "battle" and shows results kek
>>722803098>added zoom out in the definitive edition and literally no one except people casting games uses it.I use itWhat now faggot?That's what i thought
>>722802289Again, does your game even have air units? How about sea? Where's the variety:depth? (Honest questions.) Again, watch a few casts and tell me that microing sea and air units even in the same general spot would be easy with only a zoomed in camera plus a minimap.https://youtu.be/n6dxKaVd4Uc?si=8A9DV_xM_uRdQqik&t=15m7s . . . but pretend the air and naval units are one person's. Now imagine doing that with a zoomed in camera (which probably doesn't even have enough coverage for the whole engagement anyway) and with clicking on a minimap. Ludicrous; imagine defending that.
>>722803136>Tiny dotsWhat?
What do you guys think about Lines of Battle? The "simultaneous turns" style of giving orders is pretty neat.
>>722804056maybe there's more to it than it appears, but the units look like they're slow as shit and barely being microed. do you have a first person example? compare that to thishttps://youtu.be/YCHGcQ29VNk?t=1981and it looks like you could play with your left hand in a cast even with fixed zoom.
>>722752620People are skillfull.Is the Ythotha good?
>>722804960That's the definition of gookclicking. It's loud and, because of the ferocity, obnoxious: People don't know what's going on; it's not well recognized (realistic) player fantasy; it's extremely jerky; and the game sounds are really repetitive; not to mention having to repeat base tasks.I don't know what you mean with the rest of your post.>>722805143>YthothaI love Seraphim. I get so many good kills with the experimental bomber.
>>722805842aoe2 is a much slower game than sc and daut is known for being a slow old manhttps://youtu.be/yB8en659sTI?t=1118do you expect to not have to jump the camera around at all?
>>722751413dead genre
>>722806457It seems as if you're defending gookclick, janky gameplay as the central association with a low, static camera and clicking the minimap and/or using groups to move around. It's simply not fun to watch, and I imagine it's about as mediocre as an experience. People don't want to play like that.You've ignored my requests for an agreed realization that land, sea, and air together takes much more advanced interfacing. Why would anyone want less? Even the casts are awareness requisite (and exciting), and they have observer and POV privileges.I think the buildup of SupCom vastly outpaces the momentary storytelling of other games.
Can't believe this is actually a good RTS thread
>>722805143>Is the Ythotha good?Its basically your solution to not having a good t3 assault bot. Just walk in to their forward position and even if they kill it once it gets their they lose it anyway
I like AOE4. How do I get gud? I just one trick with MAA in the brief window they are uncounterable
>>722807404>land, sea, and air together takes much more advanced interfacingwhy? they're all just units on the screen.
>>722807636Which civ?I play Rus to feel like i'm not doing one trick ponyAt least you're not playing baguettes
>>722751413My mom used to be a great Ages of Empires player. Other than Tetris, that was her only video game love.
>>722751413>How do we get normies into RTS?We can't
>>722807748More and faster units plus larger maps require more interfacing.Can Seraphim dessies match Cybran's?
>>722808969the video you showed didn't look that fast to me. what's wrong with using control groups and the minimap to jump the map around? moving the screen exactly where you want it to go is faster than zooming out and then zooming back in.
>>722808830I could. 8 devs x $20/hr. x 40 hrs./wk. x 4 weeks is "I just made a game for $25,600". How much should we spend on advertising (how much is it for 1k ads)?
I played starcraft 1 recently after not playing an rts for years, I took each mission really slow, focused on building up a strong base beyond the bare minimums, created large forces before sending out groups of them to patrol the map, and had several skirmishes. I know starcraft is all about repeating the same build orders as fast as possible and using certain strategies and unit combinations but I liked treating it more like a mini civilization game with an emphasis on long matches, building a large base and several of them, and numerous battles beyond base attacks.what RTS games best supports the way I play? or at least allows their single player to be like I want
>>722809146>moving the screen exactly where you want it to go is faster than zooming out and then zooming back in.You can't watch the whole map as effectively. How would you scout more than one location at a time?
>>722808830And we shouldn't. Supcom2 and cnc4 is what you get when you try to attract casual audience. I still loved sc2 and replay it every couple of years, but it was a definite downgrade in everything but story.
>>722809201Stronghold series. And AoE2 because of giant amount of single player content and custom games too
>>722751413To be honest why would you want that
>>722809263that's what the minimap is for. do you turn your head around to see if there's a car behind you when you're driving or do you use the mirror? you want your vision to be on whatever needs controlling at the time. maybe it's your army. maybe it's your base. any time that's spent zooming the camera in and out or just looking around is basically taking away from time you could be using to do things. that's why you use the minimap to keep an eye on the big picture and to make sure your main isn't getting dropped and use hotkeys of clicking on the map to jump directly to where you need to focus.
>>722809167>8 devs x $20/hr
>>722809276>Supcom2Is really fun to watch. https://youtu.be/Ggxh5UXHaXc?si=F05MhM9XQUF_u3Rb.>>722809579Watch the above video for examples. I'm sure using the different zoom levels is not only helpful, but also really comfortable.
>>722809579>>722810458PS: Mirrors have blind spots. If you're not turning your head, you're a poor driver.
>>722809167>8 devs in 4 weeks can make a good gameIf you paid them $40-60 per hour, and they were all industry vets, and they were a well balanced team, and there were no roadblocks, and you managed them well, and there were no interpersonal issues, and they could all work in parallel somehow, and they had made a game like it before so the implementation would be a known factor, and you made them work crunch hours, even then, that would be an unreasonable timeline.
>>722810509I'll turn my head if I'm backing out of a parking spot. I use my mirrors when I'm driving forward and want to make sure there isn't a truck about to rear end me.>>722810458that video makes zoom out look extremely inconvenient and like the player is only using it because there's no minimap. every time he goes out and back in it would be faster to just jump the camera at the same zoom level.
>>722810728I imagine they would get a share of sales.A few developers that know what they're doing could (a few characters, story tidbits, and a zone per day) make an MMO in a month.
>>722808969>Can Seraphim dessies match Cybran's?It DependsDoes the cybran have a stealth boat? Are they starting the fight outside eachothers' range?
>>722810808I specifically mean when changing lanes.I don't get your problem with the fact that zoom is much better interfacing. You don't seem to have an example of fun minimap micro or equal awareness factors that consider the larger unit amounts and map sizes, even in casting.Seraphim T3 subs mog.
>>722803098>I don't personally use it>So it should not exist Its the exact same position as players who think that WASD shouldn't exist in ARPGs. I always thought the WASD argument was some kind of nuanced argument and its just that no one has bee been able to articulate it, but now I wonder if it is genuinely a "how would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning" problem.
>>722811560>Seraphim T3 subs mog.Kind of gimmicky. The range and DPS makes them a monster at standoff but the low HP makes them a bit of a liability and seraphim otherwise isn't particularly good at standoff. Pairing them with a cybran stealth boat though is warcrimes.They used to have absolutely MONSTER AA gun. I think it got nerfed in FAF + FAF changing the way T3 AA works in general so the railgun AA that swats bombers out of the air isn't as impressive.
>>722751413RTS would be big enough if all the dweebs just returned. Don't need normies for anything, normies were never into RTS anyway. RTS was popular when mostly dweebs and children were playing video games.
>>722804960>but the units look like they're slow as shit and barely being microedSupcom units have a bit more inertia than something like starcraft due to how physicsy supcom's engine is. Their turret tracking speed, track turn speed, and the way ranges vs unit sizes work in supcom make it VERY positioning and tactics focused. You can micro your way out of sticky situation but its just not an economic use of your time. The few seconds you spend microing are better spent maneuvering your forces or pulling units off to flank or raid.The exception to that is early game ACU micro. Nothing gets my heart rate up like going balls deep with my ACU in the early game, over extending, and then microing like an absolute maniac to get away with a fraction of 1% health, usually having killed most of his army in the process as the other gets tunnel vision and clicks on the ACU with everything he has hoping JUST ONE MORE HIT lands.Air micro is also pretty big. In the early game you can do tricks with bombers to hover bomb targets. Late game you don't really "micro" the fighters as such but there's an art to moving them so you get better engagements by keeping your fighters on their six o clock.
>>722751413I unironically think Halo Wars 2 is a good RTS for normies and noobs to get into. It has a very simple learning curve and a skill ceiling where even decent players can still hold their own against people with 10000 hours.I wish it was on Steam. Would probably have a pretty active community still if it was.
>>722751413https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQJujiZ-oz0There is no better RTS than BAR
>>722811638do games need to have less effective control schemes just because a minority of players are more familiar with them? should dark souls have an option to use tank controls like resident evil?
>>722812902I just wish SupCom had the quality that BAR has. They're different enough to warrant to play them both.But yeah BAR is incredibly fun and polished. That's a meme show tho, devs just flexing the engine, most players are 8v8 on normal matches
>>722813002>But yeah BAR is incredibly fun and polishedI wish someone would make a supreme commander mod for BAR but something tells me the supcom models and animations aren't easy to rip.
I think if you want to make RTS as a genre more appealing, you'll have to stop thinking in terms of 1x1 competitive autism. 1x1 competitive autism only appeals to a select few individuals as seen in fighting games and majority of videogame audience doesn't care about mastering the blade and practicing one kick 1000 times and such, not because they are afraid as some here love to think, but because they have no interest in it in the very same way they have no interest in speedrunning or no hit runs or score attacks etc.
>>722813545>you'll have to stop thinking in terms of 1x1 competitive autismNo RTS outside Starcraft is 1v1 autism, seriouslyAnd SC2 kinda sucks at that too.
RTS just isnt my type of game.I like taking things slow and at my own pace, so I grind out everything in RPGS and looter shooters before ever progressing with story.I could just be minding my own business slowly amassing troops, rarely scouting, and 100% lose every time because I just dont have the APM and competitive spirit in me that matches my opponents'. I never play competitive or ranked matches in games either.I do however, very much enjoy watching others play and commentate RTS matches. I am pretty sure there are tons of people like me, thats why RTS is never going to be super popular
>>722812987While right now the discussion has degenerated into "its not necessary", your original post was not understanding why people wanted it, and that's a reasonable thing to ask.However the answer to that isn't some "proof" - go play supreme commander. I wouldn't sit here arguing in favor of it if weren't for having played supreme commander. That is, if I hadn't played supreme commander I wouldn't have a reason to want more games with strategic zoom.And if I wouldn't be arguing in favor of it, if it weren't for that, how could I expect you to believe anything I say in absence of that?
>>722790376Players lose more because of poor macro than low APM (and then blame it on APM anyway). If you're efficient at managing resources, controlling the map, anticipating events, pumping out units, composing your armies, attacking effectively, and staying cool under pressure you'll overcome a faster but less skilled opponent. With equal skill, tho, you obviously need to be faster than the other guy.
>>722751637C&C Alternative
>>722797258cope, ASSFAGGOTS are the worst genre in pc gaming.
>>722816129The GOTS is completely unnecessary and ridiculousASSFAG is perfectly functional
>>722794416>resource managementMana and cooldowns>multiple unit controlMinions>camera controlMinimap>pvpExists
>>722751413Pick a game, watch a video/read an article on tips for new players, use tips, git gud. That simple
>>722751845Any Warhammer RTS
>>722776127You are fucking retarded. The amount of different inputs and travel time alone make APM in an FPS and APM in an RTS completely different beasts.
>>722799987>not wanting to ride into battle on top of a ankylosaurus alongside your friendGay!
>>722756104It's Ian the Nutriments Nigger. He's fixated on RTS for no reason instead of RMT MMOs with crafted gear only and it really fucking sucks because for once the thrust of his point isn't even wrong, just the point itself, but he's so severely autistic and dogshit at arguing or even addressing other people that he sabotages himself.
>>722809146>moving the screen exactly where you want it to go is faster than zooming out and then zooming back in.No, it's not.
>>722803098You are retardedThe difference between playing unmodded TA and playing TA with modern patches that enable the megamap or playing OTA in the Spring engine is night and fucking day. It is objectively easier and faster to control.
>>722751413MAKE A FUCKING CAMPAIGN INSTEAD OF ONLY A SKIRMISH MODE AND BALANCING AROUND MPSLOP
I've been trying to like Supreme Commander for 20 years but the units are just so slow and sluggish and lack any personality whatsoever.
>>722815372They suck at macro BECAUSE of their low APM in games where macro is a heavy APM tax. That's what you're not getting. A max 45 APM player in SC2 with decent game sense is garbage that falls instantly to practiced rote execution from the other player. A max 45 APM player in BAR with decent game sense is infinitely better because the game's interface is dozens of times more helpful than SC2's.
>>722819823Units doing cool things is more personality than any amount of voice clips.
I tried getting into Starcraft 2 pvp years ago and what made me give up was realizing that there isnt reslly much room left for strategy anymore. The gameplay is basically looking up a faction guide online and then both players race go see who can follow the building guide faster.Maybe im wrong, but that was the first impression i got and it kinda put me off from online RTS as a whole.
>>722820013And the vast majority of supcom units are barebones statsticks designed to be spammed out in enough mass that their relative features become meaninglessDirect fire vs hover shit barely makes a difference past five minutes when the singular goal is to just push out as much damage and hp as possible.
>>722820469Yeah yeah>pairs hoplites with deceivers and blasts your T2 spam from outside your vision range
>>722820393>wtf do you mean I can't just jump into a game I know very little about and just build random shit and NOT win???Ever considered that your "strategy" is just shit?
>>722820973when the meta is restrictive, its not fun, the nature of a RTS game is that you have endless possibilities and choices you can do. Where you build buildings, which ones you build, what your buildings then specialise in, what units you build, when you build them, how many etc.And with all that possibility, if the entire pvp scene boils down to you having next to no choices at all that don't result in a loss, that's bad game design. Stop defending bad game design, you sweaty faggot loser, YOU are part of the reason rts is a dying genre.
>>722820973You're a disingenuous faggot SC2 has build orders that can outlast the matches you play them. A basic marine medivac timing push can end the game by minute nine and you would've spent 80% of your match following instructions by rote instead of a build order lasting the first 3 minutes of a 30+ minute match.
>"Planetary Annihilation">0 resultsDoes it suck then?
>>722751413Good campaigns. See Warcraft III.Only autists play RTS for le ebin online matches.
>>722751413RTS has been a normie genre since forever. All the normie boomers I've worked with played C&C and Total Annihilation. Normie GenXers played Red Alert and Tiberium Sun. Normie millennials played Total War and and RA2 and Generals. All of this has overlap, of course. I think a better question would be how do we get younglings into RTS, and/or how do we make RTS more popular without trying to create another Red Alert / Warcraft 3 clone.
>>722820393>pvp
>>722822058it's very gimmicky
>>722821737>>722822012The only ones being disingenuous are (you).You make a vague statement like "muh strategy" and make a ton of assumptions on that statement alone.For all I know - and this is very likely - you're a bronze-tier faggot with an APM of 50.>>722822012This goy for instance is talking as if you can just completely ignore what your opponent is doing and not eat shit when the hammer comes down. Fucking lmao.
>>722820393you are sort of wrong
>>722822058Very much so.The planets was an interesting gimmick, but once you look past that it's a very simplistic game with glaring design flaws and overall quite boring.And that's without bringing up the jewish antics of the developer.
>>722820393you're both right and wrong. If you want to get good at SC2 you have to know those build orders to know how to counter them. But once you're a good players you don't have to rely on them any more.
>>722813801Have you tried Total War? You basically decide the pace for yourself.
>>722820393>bro my strategy is to neural parasite a probe and tempest rush my opponent!>what the fuck I keep losing despite my strategy???>SHIT GAME!!!
>>722820393>it kinda put me off from online RTS as a whole.This is very silly. You should try SupCom FAF, it's nothing like Starcraft.
first of all there are no good RTS games out right now, everything that's "good" is old as fuck.Esports and Gookclick have done catastrophic damage to RTS genre.
>>722822706He should try Warcraft 3 instead!
>>722771365>Games just started getting 1M concurrent, and that's on PC.
>>722751413I don't know, I don't care, normies can stay normies, now post more seductive anime pictures and rts games ideas for my game.
>>722813002This yeah. I love supcom but Bar's QoL and Macro options are amazing. To give a bone to supcom though, BAR is still missing the auto transport ferry system SupCom had.
You can't. You know what killed RTS? The advent of touch screens – people want an "intuitive", "clean", "simple" UI (a touch screen, essentially).RTS games were for the generation that grew up with keyboard/mouse, Microsoft Word/Excel.
>>722822237>This goy for instance is talking as if you can just completely ignore what your opponent is doing99% of the time you can you dumb niggerany basic timing attack build is so obnoxiously optimized that it will seemlessly transition to counter any other early aggression aside from actual all-insand actual all-ins fail with sending a singular worker out and building a single defensive structurea single branching path is not strategic dumb fucking nigger
>>722826772>just ignore your opponent dudeWhat a nonsense post.
>>722826754No, it's consoles that killed RTS. Because it's more profitable to make games that support mutliplatform releases because money and you can't physically play an RTS on a controller.So, RTS stayed a very niche PC-only affairs, while the industry stopped caring about them.
I think I'm being gaslit by zoomers/shitposters saying that MOBAs have no lineage to RTS games, when in fact the first widespread MOBA was a WCIII mod. I don't even play ASSFAGGOTS but I know this information.
There aren't enough fantasy RTS games in my life. It's always sci-fi and robots.Recommend me some fantasy RTS.Hard mode: no Warcraft, Spellforce of BFME.
>>722817831>RMT MMOs with crafted gear onlyDoes this exist? If so, is in it any good?>the thrust of his point isn't even wrong, just the point itselfWhat do you mean?>he's so severely autistic and dogshit at arguing or even addressing other people that he sabotages himselfI don't think that anything about RTS being more fun and rewarding, posted ITT, is dogshit.
Play BAR
>>722822237>For all I know - and this is very likely - you're a bronze-tier faggot with an APM of 50.that is exactly, 100% the kind of cancerous person who gatekeeps the entire RTS genre and pushes people out.
>>722829884the point is that the audiences are not the same
>>722829586>What are MMOs?
>>722830091Threre's TA Kingdoms.It's not the best RTS ever, but the campaign is a little fun. I'm sure you're aware and probably just forgot list in your don't name list, but there's the age of mythology games. There's also Dungeon Keeper one and Two, and it's spiritual successor War for the overworld, which while very different compared what you typically think of an RTS it is a thing.
>>722829884You simply have low reading comprehension.
>>722830701Why, because the gameplay is different? I mentioned that people should switch from CS too.
>>722830091The Scouring
>>722751413Less pvp more pve
>>722802289SC has small groups, right? SC 2 has unlimited size?
>>722831770>WhyBecause they're vastly different games.Yeah they're using similar control-schemes in that you use a mouse to control a single unit, but that does not an RTS make.The "people" who end up playing mobas are not the people that ends up playing RTS.The only reason why you're confused is because you're stuck in the mindset that because it was a custom game in an RTS then it must be an RTS.You can play first-person shooter custom games in Starcraft 2 - probably also in Warcraft 3 - are first person shooters suddenly RTS games too?
>>722831972Starcraft (1) has a unit-selection limit of 12 while Starcraft 2 has no limit to the amount of units in a selection.
I like playing RTS against the AI but I can't be bothered to become good enough to play online.It's cool to watch though
for me it's red alert 3 and coh2
>>722751413Get them to play a RTS with RPG elements, they're the most fun to playMy favorites are the SpellForce series and Warlords Battlecry 3
>>722752695>>722830579>>722830579I watched a BAR cast and didn't find the variety:depth of SupCom FA. Does SCFA have more buildings, tech options, and upgrades?As an aside, does anyone else get extreme amounts of pleasure from hover bombing? https://youtu.be/bgdtF63mkvA?si=zNu8CGMNZD1XLVDE&t=12m48s.Heaven videos are *really* good. It's basically *the* tutorial channel.
>>722832325>red alert 3I tried to play it recently. Absolutely disgusting game, the only nice thing about it is water.
Ground control 2 is criminally underrated and its not even a real RTSThats how you get normies into it
>>722832005I'm not even consciously associating custom gameplay history in my arguments. RTS are more risk:reward, which plays extremely more full body than other games. That's pretty much my central argument. I don't think it's wrong at all. Only EVE online PvP is so intense, but that's relegated to a few minutes here and there if you can find fights.Any body can play RTS, somewhat specifically if they have the right learning strategy (replays and tutorials).
>>722833363Yeah that's super cool, but it has nothing to do with the topic.
>>722832906>didn't find the variety:depth of SupCom FA
I'm tired of TA-likes, how about we get something new
>>722833562How so?
>>722833802play tempest rising or stormgate
>>722833956the only one that looks interesting to me right now is Dust Front but it's not even announced for release
>>722834029dying breed also came out in early access
>>722833802Just because BAR is the only new RTS that is good doesn't mean everything is TA-likeThere are more C&C and SC shitclones, a lot more. I want AoE clones tho, like SW Battlegrounds kind of clones. Sadly, that's not gonna happen because AoE is refined and harder to do than Warcraft-like shit.
>>722751413its not coming back. the last rts i played was halo wars and i spammed the girl with the super flight units. its a dead genre. factorio reminded me of an rts kind of.
>>722834521>its not coming back.Wrong.(you) are not coming back. That's fine, but RTS is alive and well. It doesn't need (you). Sorry to inform you.
>>722808515HRE
>>722752309>Bring in those Gyle casts.https://youtu.be/ANUWfa_LoLA?si=CMGhkKvuEvt4waeh. Here's an example of lower unit and awareness requisite play. Commanders are extremely powerful.I don't know if I want to call them hero units, but I guess that's what they are.Really good cast, again, from Gyle.
>>722834803I mean either i've never been hit with the correct time frame or my HRE opponents kinda sucked but i've never felt they were a cheese. I guess that I just know they're gonna try that shit with battering rams and prepare from the very first minute. Just like against Frenchies and Mongols, these players really love their one trick ponies
>>722834803not holy, not roman, not an empire
I bought this little rts called Rusted Warfare on sale, how is it? It seems devs barely updated it, but workshop mods are good.
>>722752309>Also, does anyone think that a new RTS should nearly copy SupCom FA? How do you get away with foregoing as much variety:depth?Beyond All ReasonThough its a TA remake/sequel but it's exactly what you're looking for, it's incredible and free
>>722822058it sucked arse. I hated the end-game combat system of;>setup orbital satellites and elevators>build nukes and comet artillery systems>destroy the enemies planetit was really poorly done, i wanted 40k style orbital systems, not that shit.Now that DoW1 got a 64bit remaster, i desperately want to see the Supcom series get the same treatment, i always hated how unplayable the game was once you had too many AI+units on the field, the ram restrictions were obscene.
>>722834803More like HRT cuz ur gay lmao rekt punk
>>722835979hes not coming back from that one
>>722753229>>Anyway, all it would take is some advertising on why the game is better than MOBA>Ergonomically, DOTA makes whatever argument you're going to make irrelevantYou think DOTA is more rewarding than a good RTS? More options is more strategy, and MOBAs are extremely repetitive while being far surpassed by good RTS in momentary action (storytelling).Somebody defend Seton's, vs. Dual Gap.
honestly CoH1 was the best rts imo
>>722836273PS: I just think the land bridge is too volatile, plus the land gameplay too funneled to reach other slots. I know DG has funneling problems too, but I don't think these sorts of things suppress overall slot gameplay, as, e.g., there are two land slots fighting heavily on the middle, so T1-T4 plays are still rewarded.I also like Dark Heart, but I'm not sure how good I would be at 2v2v2. Maybe I could turtle for T3 subs and a nuke silo.
>>722751413Do normies really be into it? All the popular RTS games are old af and I believe it's impossible for anyone to come up with games better than them. Indies just don't have the resources and big studio innovation got killed by monopolisation. Just look at EA, only producing the safe titles as dev time is wasted anywhere else.
>>722837717I don't think random dev decisions will make a good game. The devs have to know what they're copying and, if even possible, innovating. Good RTS design is *really* specific.I still don't think max-map zoom is arguable, plus dozens of units and buildings.Somebody post good BAR gameplay.
>>722835965>he wants to see a game get ruined by a remaster>>722836631coh2 was better in the long run tho, but yeah, coh1 is brilliant, shame that relic is a dev made of faggot canadians and they will never release source code so people can unfuck their messy code.Can't believe nobody tried to take on the Relic formula, Steel Harvest was the only one but they managed to be even more retarded than Relic.I'm fucking tired of C&C clones, the game was only cool because of the novelty and the kickass soundtrack and cheesy FMVs, I never actually liked the gameplay itself.
>>722837717The issues with indies is that they all try to be "different" and "unique". None of them worjk towards being a game with solid/reliable foundation, based on previous successful RTS games. Look at >>722769341And as for resources - nothing stops indies to go EA and kickstarter, except that they cannot into a defined plan to build the foundation.How hard is it to make a Generals game that is kinda the same, except with better AI, pathfinding, a few more units/upgrades, a bit improved models and graphics, and less bugs/improved engine? Especially when the game went opensource.
>>722835557Here's another that's similar: https://youtu.be/JJSmViO-yVU?si=-KysOKgyFQtaBIb8.
>>722813808ok so what I am getting here is that the people who keep asking for zoom out are supreme commander players who think they need it because the game apparently doesn't have a minimap or at least doesn't make you learn how to use it so they go to other games and have no idea how to multitask>>722830091try warlords battlecry or kohan.
The most normie friendly, fun RTS would have Starcraft 1 style army scaling and fun, diverse, powerful-feeling unit designs with an APM (or more accurately eAPM) speed limiting mechanic of some kind.It wouldn't be 1v1 focused. Instead coop PvE, team games, or FFA.- Massive defenders advantage, easy early game information.- SC1 style scaling: core units don't scale efficiently in number. Armies are armies not "mega-unit" deathballs: they're big, unwieldy, and slower to maneuver compared to smaller troops. This curbs snowballing and makes battles slower, more visually appealing, and more spatially spread apart with more interaction points for back-and-forth counterplay.- eAPM speed limit: players aren't able to continuously leverage mechanical speed into advantage. The hardest problem to solve, because oldschool RTS style scaling and granularity (which otherwise is a good thing) naturally lends itself to a basically endless opportunity for mechanical outplay, with every player feeling like they need to be hitting their own limit 100% of the time. Exhausting and unfun for most. Combined with the focus on competitive 1v1, this more than anything is what killed the classic RTS.
>>722837617>turtling on dark heart>laughs in t2 cruisers
>>722839346The only examples of minimap meta that have been posted are janky nonsense, not to mention how much more awareness is required in SupCom to know what to make and fight.Also, it just wouldn't be fun. I think a classic level of zoom wouldn't even cover a base, not to mention T3 plane fights.>>722837617One of my favorite maps is Open Palms for that early land and com rush.
>>722839346How are you supposed to have detailed full map awareness with only a minimap?
>>722835557>>722839235I watched the first one and skipped through the second. I don't know enough about the game to know if they were good games or not, but the spectating was fucking terrible. there's no minimap so you can only see whatever the observer is looking at, and his constant adhd jerking the camera in and out was super annoying. also there was no economy overlay or anything so I couldn't even tell who had a population lead.>>722840603by looking at it? here is a replay of only the minimap view and you can get a good enough idea of what was going on just from that. you are basically seeing the exact same level of detail that you would with the map fully zoomed out, but it's always there in the corner of the screen so you can keep the main screen zoomed in to focus on things. you're seeing two views at once instead of having to constantly switch between one and the other.
>>722841169A 6v6 requires you to watch 5 teammates and 6 opponents; plus the building density is too much to read from only a minimap -- I just don't think you have an idea of how much goes on.Can somebody else argue this? Maybe I'm missing something.
>>722841840like I keep explaining the minimap is your big picture view. it's showing the exact same thing that you can see with the map fully zoomed out, where your shit is and where enemy shit is. if you need more detail you jump the main screen there. instead of having to constantly zoom in and zoom out you have both views visible at the same time.
>>722751413Include FPS elements so people can play as individual units.Like Natural Selection 2.So pretty much make Natural Selection 3.
>>722751413genre peaked with supcom/FA, why did they have to ruin PA?
>mfw no minimap
>>722842438>it's showing the exact same thing that you can see with the map fully zoomed outExcept it's tiny. Good luck spotting a nuke launcher in 1 of the 6 slots, without lots of micro. If zoomed out is just a bigger minimap (it isn't, because you can select and control units and buildings from it), you shouldn't have any problem with it, specifically because it's so smooth and because of all the increased interfacing and data it has.>>722842853In SupCom FA, you can have half of your, or another, screen as a large minimap, plus the option to control things from there.
>>722753043phycological effect is in play online already in every game.i have won many aoe2 games with reckless bluffing plays.and a handfull of DOW games by getting a baneblade on the feild.
>>722843817so why can't you have just a regular minimap then?
>>722753427>Not playing on the same map all the time is a small exampleNormalfags love the same map over and over, they would prefer every game have one perfectly balanced bland and boring mirrord map.
>>722843817you can control units by clicking on the minimap in most games that have one.>you shouldn't have any problem with it,the problem is that it sucks for multitasking
City builder, but rts. Focus less on the sweaty parts of the genre.
>>722844107Not many people know this, but SupCom does have a minimap, it's just off by default, and turning it on is obtuse. I know for a fact FA does anyway. Anon is trying to justify the absence of a feature that the game literally has.
>>722765359>How do you guys feel about adjacency?I think it's cool
>>722844107>>722844637I didn't say it didn't have one.https://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=14556.
>>722765359
>>722844637>>722844868why can't the caster that got posted earlier use it to show the game better instead of scrolling in and out like a retard?
ok wait let me put on my maximum psychobullshitting hat:zoom out is bad for multitasking but that's why people like it. they don't like minimaps because having to constantly check it stresses them out. they like zoom out because it never forces you to track multiple views at the same time and you always feel in control of what you're seeing.
>>722844868You didn't have to, I know you had no idea the feature existed until just now, or you would have opened with telling people the feature exists if you want it instead of sperging out about "erm, zooming all the way out is good ackshuallee"It's fine to admit you missed it, as I said, practically 90% of this games players don't know to this day.
>>722830091I liked Warrior Kings: Battles.
>>722845125But I knew; I was simply replying with reasons why zooming exists, which was the original topic.
>>722845109How is zoom out bad for multitasking? Relocating the map takes a fraction of a second.
>>722845805because you're limited to seeing one view at a time instead of two
>>722845734Your reasons are bogus and have nothing to do with why it's there. It's there for player adjustable situational awareness because of the scales combat in SupCom can take place over. You were arguing for it as a replacement for a minimal, which as I said, the game has that feature. Jesus Anon, you're anonymous on the internet, you have nothing to prove and no reputation to uphold.>>722845057He doesn't know there's a minimap, guaranteed. He doesn't know he can split the screen for two POVs to make managing the base and front line easier either.
>>722791380>MOBA has nothing in common with RTS.lol. lmao even.
>>722846426Not an RTS sorry.
Earth 2150, Impossible Creatures, and Battle Realms were my jam and currently I tend to play Sins.In supcom I'd just be the idiot always going UEF with either planes or turtling and building economy with great emphasis on economy so I can have a billion kennels and make anything but the hungriest of constructions in a split second after a full hour or so. It's stupid and takes forever but I find it fun having so many building assistants that can fly around wherever zero issue.
>>722845959But FA has a minimap, and new games with zoom can too.If a supposed lack of a minimap was that poster's original, albeit hidden, line of reasoning, then I missed that.I still think that zooming is faster and more complete control and knowledge. See zooming to a specific level and double clicking on a type of item to select all at that zoom.>>722846135I was literally arguing scale already.I also *just* mentioned screen splitting.Read the thread.
>>722844421The game is called The Settlers and its the worst of both worlds
>>722847247how can it be faster? zoom out, move the camera, zoom back in is 3 actions. clicking on the minimap or double tapping a control group to move the camera is only 1.
>>722835901No one's played it?
It's interesting that these RTS threads get so many responses, but the RTS genre still seems dead. Either /v/ is a lot different than a general audience, or there is still significant interest in the genre just new games don't catch on for whatever reason.
>>722835901>>722848274I had never heard of it before this post, but checking Steam it looks like it's $5. It doesn't look particularly interesting to me, but it's only $5. At that point if you think you might like it why not try it for $5? Five bucks won't even get you a Happy Meal these days.
>>722848570>Five bucks won't even get you a Happy Meal these days.
>>722751413normies will never again play an RTS. even in the past the only thing getting the general audience to buy an rts were custom maps like evolve, cat and mouse and tower defense. and you can't do that anymore because that space has been largely overtaken by mobile games.
>>722847586It's scroll out, scroll in.I think people would fumble over minimap play so that it's more trying to find exactly what they need. Zoom provides more awareness, specific selection, and control (larger views for larger amounts of units) while being much smoother.Plus, as mentioned, the examples provided were extremely jerky and not that fun to watch, not to mention gookclick.
>>722848286People mostly gravitate to already popular games, plus people don't realize how much more risk:reward RTS is compared to other genres. It would be easy to obtain players, with the right game and advertising.>>722752309 (pic). Enjoyment is objective. Just convince with science what players want, e.g., playing with each other.
>>722848286If you look at some more recent RTS games, say Ashes of a Singularity, they completely miss the mark in a lot of ways despite having that sci-fi style that isn't actually bad at all. The mechanics and other stuff is just really awkward and clunky or full on missing basic stuff like proper attack-move and patrol patterns that supcom nailed.Now, the only games of the sort people really seem to play, or at least is advertised a bunch, are war games like Broken Arrow which seems to also be flubbing it very hard from what I was reading and hearing.
All the RTSes I can think of are either military themed, science fiction themed, or fantasy themed. Would coming up with a different setting/aesthetic make a new RTS stand out, or would it be too alienating? What other themes would be appropriate for an RTS?
>Occasionally watching casts and posting for 28 hours.>Most of the games are T1 spam or air superiority.I want some T2 gameplay. I don't even think Seton's usually has T2 gameplay, but I didn't notice a lot of middle stalemate games with tac missiles or arty, which can be really prevalent in my bracket (while being really effective and fun).On Dual Gap land, I would airdrop engies to mid and spam T2 turrets, shielding, and Ilshavos while scouting for T2 arty spam (which I think requires really quickly realizing it and making counter arty, but you could probably get away with a unit push if they're not building a bunch of PD and if you have the units) and tactical missile launchers, etc. Rushing tech is really risky because the opponent can build lower techs while you upgrade.Anybody got any vids?What's your favorite faction (and why)?
I need to learn to play fog of war better, scouting, being aggressive in light of the fact that pressing into opponents often isn't punishable and is a huge benefit. So many people would massively disrupt their opponent(s) if they just pushed a little more.
>>722751413starcraft 2 had its heyday a decade ago.
>>722835901>>722848274A streamlined take on TA-style games with some original ideas, I liked it. Not a whole lot of singleplayer content: a few missions and challenge missions, a couple survival maps and some skirmish maps, I'd say the AI is pretty solid for compstomp, tho. Multiplayer basically dead, I think players schedule games via discord, or something. Very moddable which is apparently the main draw because there are loads of mods. There's even a mobile version if you want to casually turtle on the go.I liked how there's only one resource (no energy spam unlike TA/SupCom), and that you don't get to speed up factory production so you don't get this ridiculous BAR situation where every player has only one factory with fifty constructor turrets around it.
>>722848286If we had games, we'd be playing them all day long instead of discussing about it to death. And it's a rule of thumb that anons generally don't play vidya.
Total Annihilation was released in 1997 and will be 30 years old in 2 years.
>>722751413Make them easy to pick up and hard to master.>infantilize macro>the micro shenanigans can stay>make games 15min long>add virtual gf's that will bond with virgins between gamesThere ya go.
>>722752801So you just want more units?
>>722832325Luv coh2 to death but the lack of auto reinforcement makes me want to burn my pc
>>722752890Just tell them there's nothing better to do. I can't imagine what would make some RTS more exciting than they already are, because of risk:reward. Does a more intense genre exist? Again, honorable mention to EVE Online; but you can base build in a good RTS all day long, and it's extremely entertaining because of so much strategy on strategy momentary storytelling.
>>722751413Saw the pic and just wanted to say Supreme Commander is the pinnacle of RTS and the smooth scaling of your level of involvement is one key factor in that. A roll of the wheel takes you from a small engagement to large movements of your entire forces, industrial management and control of the battlefield, another roll and you're back to watching your spider unleash glorious destruction with the cutter beam.
>>722753087I want to say that the APM in SupCom is small while consistent and important. I can't imagine that last hitting in DOTA or League is as fun as all the different things you can do in an RTS depending on how interested you are in the variety:depth.
>>722752801You are describing Grand Strategy, which is funny because that genre is more popular than RTS
>>722847586Because using the scroll wheel and moving your mouse slightly then using the scroll wheel again is faster and less effort than moving to the minimap with your mouse then clicking or mapping a group to a certain part of the map then reusing it.You keep pretending that your mouse goes exactly where you want it with no effort. It doesn't.
>>722845959No you're not. SupCom even has multi-monitor support which is infinitely more readable than a minimap. Just stop talking about a game you have never played and don't understand.
>>722753183People are objectively the same at high levels of genetic expression (e.g., consciously choosing optimals because they know it's better). Anybody can learn the basics of a skill in an hour or two. Just get them interested in everything about the game. (What does that mean to you?)
>>722839346>I've been playing rts games since 1996Really? Are you the same person that originally posted?
>>722836273>You think DOTA is more rewarding than a good RTS?NTA but for most people it is. I think for many controlling a single character isn’t just more appealing because it’s easier, but because it’s easier to invest yourself into it. Getting a kill or working towards a specific item (that you immediately see has an impact in team fights) in Dota is a much more immediately satisfying experience than balancing your economy or dodging arrows in AoE2. I’d say that taken holistically a match of a good RTS is more satisfying overall than any MOBA match, but that MOBAs do an excellent job of constantly drip feeding you little moments of satisfaction throughout the entire match in a way RTS doesn’t, at least for most people.
>>722850908Vanilla had aeon's T2 fighters fill an interesting niche but I think they got nerfed in FAF. I don't know why.
>>722855492>Because using the scroll wheel and moving your mouse slightly then using the scroll wheel again is faster and less effort than moving to the minimap with your mouseit's not, or else tourneyfags playing aoe2 would do it>>722856330my first rts was the original red alert
>>722850589>All the RTSes I can think of are either military themed>lets make a 9-5 wagecuck theme in a genre based around warkek retard
>>722753495TB doesn't give you the shakes.
>>722857260>it's not, or else tourneyfags playing aoe2 would do itLast time I played aoe2 you could not zoom all the way out and see the whole map at once. Is there a setting you need to toggle somewhere?
>>722857260AoE2's zoom is nothing like SupCom's you idiot.
