>should we write a nuanced take on the Templar/Assassin conflict and show both sides of their ideals?>nah let's just switch their roles so this one very specific group of Assassins were a bunch of retards and this one very specific group of Templars were super nice dindu'sWhat a boring setting
>>724151604Wasn't this also the case with AC3?Only Charles was a fucking faggot.Bad individuals are on both sides and their fight is pointless since they always judge the other side by the minority of it.
>>724151604>playin AC for the storynigga, what are you doing? Just enjoy the beautiful arctic ocean and the incredible boss battles with the legendary ships
>>724151604You're being hyper critical of something that was good. The game literally displays nuance 101; the Assassins can get it wrong, the Templars can get it right. It's enough to make you reconsider the series. In the very first game the Assassin leader was bad, remember? it's NOT black and white.
>>724151604Most AC games besides the Eizo trilogy show the Templars in a nuanced light. Only in the trilogy are they pure mindless evil.
>>724152217>In the very first game the Assassin leader was bad, remember?Because he was actually a secret templar.But honestly I do feel that the first game did the best when it came to nuance in the way villains and heroes were written.The templars of AC1 actually felt like they truly believed they were doing what was best for humanity. meanwhile most villains after are mostly just greedy for power.
>>724152426Yeah throughout the game Altiar kept reconsidering his actions and questioning what he was acting accomplishing. The second to last major event is him tracking down an individual in a ring of Templars, and them granting him an honest confrontation with the individual without stepping in.
>>724152217You talk like you wrote the game and are desperate to defend the undefendable
>>724152217lmfao Rogue has one of the worst set of characters and stories in the franchise. The best way to experience it is to get a savefile that has rushed through the main quest so the only thing left to do is the side content ie the only good part of the game. The narrative is fucking retarded and safe, it doesn’t explore both sides it simply changes their alignment. It doesn't delve into Templar philosophy or why Shay might care about it it just makes these very specific 1750s Assassins fucking idiots that belittle each other constantly and control the populace and take "hide in plain sight" to heart by creating fucking fortresses throughout the city with their banner in flags while their gangs shake down people like the Finnegans. They send Shay on a transatlantic journey that takes him half a year back and forth but then never ask him exactly what happened in Lisbon so there's a huge misunderstanding where Shay doesn't explain himself and Achilles thinks Shay found an Apple not the Seismic Temple. Monro and the rest are only ever goody two shoes around Shay, he never finds out about the bad shit Haytham's Rite did like the Boston Massacre or infecting New York's civs with pox blankets, it gets to a point where players headcanon the Templars gaslit Shay and hid their most heinous crimes from him because it just doesn't feel believable. It desynchs you for killing civilians as an Assassin but allows it when you switch to a Templar and even adds a new gameplay mechanic in the form of bounty hunters when the whole reason Shay left was his guilt over killing civs. It's stupidly tone-deaf.The fucking irony in Otso Berg saying "Shay might be the single most important Assassin to ever live" yet Rogue was forgotten the second it came out and him and his shitpost virus have never ever been referenced again.
will we ever seen new and original ips again?
>>724152785Rogue is second best to Black Flag. simple as
>>724151885>Wasn't this also the case with AC3?Nope. All the Templars outright tell you why they do what they do and even if they're cracking a few eggs they believe it's for the betterment of the country or the Templar's ideals while Connor is mostly killing them because Achilles told him to or for the Founding Fathers' goals and can't really justify his position when pressed. When you play Liberation Connor can't even really explain why he's an Assassin to Aveline who herself is having a crisis of faith about staying with the Brotherhood, and then in Forsaken Connor was shown to genuinely be a step away from becoming a Templar until Haytham revealed he knew about Washington (Which shouldn't have gotten him mad since Haytham couldn't confirm it but whatever) while Haytham was having a crisis of faith with his Templar ideals as well which is why he saved Connor from the hanging at the prison after Achilles missed.
>>724151604Better than Black Flag
>>724152785Shay is the best character in the series you retarded ass jeet faggot
>>724154029>>724155043I'm not hearing an argument
>>724152217>The game literally displays nuance 101; the Assassins can get it wrong, the Templars can get it right.No it doesn't, it does a horrendous job at it and you're the only one I've ever seen arguing Rogue does this well.The very first Templar you go after in Rogue is outright shown to be Washington's father who doesn't want to drag him into the Templar Order or their fights and they basically play the pity card to show you Templars are also human. Then the next Templar says he's just pulling the strings to keep everyone safe which Shay outright calls him out on since it's the same argument many Templars made in 3 to justify taking away people's freedom. These are the two Templars Shay meets before defecting.Kesegowaase and Chevalier are introduced to show you that some Assassins are just assholes or rude for no reason to sway your opinion, but they literally do nothing at all that is actually bad to anyone Shay knows or even Shay himself, they're just cold or distant. The former is trying to keep various tribes safe with the French while the latter is trying to keep the Colonies safe from Templars which Shay has been outright told by several people. Hope and Liam are nothing but kind to Shay and Achilles is just a normal leader while Adewale is someone they respect but Shay doesn't really know.Then the betrayal happens and it's so stupid it's unbelievable that it ruins the whole game. Shay can literally sit in on a conversation at the Homestead between Ade and Achilles where they state their agent hunting a PoE was lost in a freak earthquake they didn't even know about. Then when Shay comes back from a trip that was at least half a year or longer with no one seeing him he immediately starts accusing Achilles of trying to murder him and that he knew it would kill thousands of people which makes zero sense because Achilles thought Shay was going to pick up an Apple of Eden, not what Shay was describing which is why he's baffled at Shay.
>>724151604Its the best one compared to Black Fag you faggot
You should hide your samefagging better, fren
>>724155164>it shows nuance here and here and here>...it doesn't show nuancepick a lane
>>724151604Yes it's incredibly childish. Like the developers thought they were writing "le nuanced grey two sides" but it comes across like a joke. The only reason the plot happens is because the writers wrote Shay and Achilles like babies that can't talk for 5 minutes like adults, then the Templars hide from Shay all the heinous shit we know they did in AC3
>>724152217>>724155164Then you have Achilles, Hope, and Liam for zero reason throwing rank and cold shoulder Shay despite Shay's entire mission being unbelievably important to Achilles. It's never explained why they do it, it's never explained why no one talks to him after the argument, and he just sits there marinating in anger in the woods five feet away from where he argued with everyone. Then for some reason Achilles and co. already knew he was going to break into the building and steal the box so they had a bunch of Assassins farting around ready to kill him instead of talking to him for like 10+ hours while he was seething in the woods.Right after he gets shot he's immediately found by the Templar family and Monroe acts like the patron saint of New York who only wants to help build up the country and that the Assassins are pure evil destroying them with their gangs. Then when you rescue Gist and assassinate Kesegowaase Gist is presented like the kindest soul until Shay's initiation at which point the mask comes off for the Templars in small ways. Gist is the patron saint of sailing until initiated and then says he would have killed Shay but then is buddies with him for the rest of the game and is super kind to him. The black guy is kind right from the start. The AC3 guys are presented as morally correct in their actions. Monroe's death is presented as tragic.The only hint you get that the Templars are even doing something bad is Haytham has no justification for Adewale's murder when Shay knows he's a good guy and can't justify his death, and they're outright lying about Hope's poison plan which she outright told Shay in confidence when he was an Assassin that it was to take out the higher ups in the Templar Order and no one else. She still loves Shay even after his betrayal and is clearly not lying to him.Then in the ending Shay acts like Connor is a bad guy and that the Templars are morally righteous when AC3 has already happened which they're not.
>>724155935It's the Assassin's CREED of course they knew he was going to break in, of course they positioned their soldiers around with explicit orders to put him down.
>>724152217>>724155935There's also the Assassin Intercepts which shows the Assassins are taking out targets who are actively conspiring with the Templars or are at the very least passing information onto them unknowingly and it presents these as morally bankrupt things that Shay needs to stop due to it targeting civvies.By far the worst part is that Shay remained a Templar after AC3 showing he's a massive hypocrite. It shows that there is no morality to Shay's choices at all, he's just with the Templars either because of the bridges he burned or because he's been indoctrinated by them. The Templars actively give smallpox blankets to people who lost their homes in the Boston Fire so that they can kill off the homeless and people who still live there. I believe the reasoning was to allow the British to overtake it easily. This would mean more deaths than anything that happened in Lisbon, and it's actively condoned by Haytham since he signed off on it instead of a freak accident like with Achilles who didn't even realize what Shay touched wasn't an Apple (Something shown in both the database entry about him and in the meeting with him). The fact Shay raised his grandkids as Templars is even worse let alone killing Arno's dad or acting like Connor was doing a bad thing.>>724155548Nuance would mean it doesn't take a side and you can see both sides' arguments when it very clearly presents the Templars as the ones in the right and Assassins as the ones in the wrong with Adewale calling Shay a monster being presented as Adewale being wrong even though Shay can't justify the kill to himself.The entire betrayal only happens if no one acts like a real human being who hasn't seen their love interest, best friend, or literally their most important agent at the time for months on end and he comes in shouting that something has clearly gone terribly wrong.Rogue is the worst written story in the series and it has no nuance. Assassins bad, Templars good.
>>724151604>ac1 the villain is the assassin leader>ac revelations is just a bunch of turks infighting>ac3 the assassins are making everything worse>ac black flag, basically no assassins or templars>ac unity don't even know what that was about, but everyone's a cunt>ac rogue the templars are the good guys>ac syndicate, the templars are assholes but are not actively making anything worse, they want an artifact to control london, which they already do without the artifact, might as well leave them alonethe only games where the templars are truly dangerously evil are ac2 and brotherhood
>>724151604OY MAKE ME OWN LUCK!
>>724157234>ac black flag, basically no assassins or templarsYou just weren't paying attention.Mary was an Assassin only sticking around with Edward to try and find out about the Observatory location since he intercepted Duncan. The Caribbean Brotherhood was working to stop the entire Observatory plan and kill the Templars trying to find it while also stopping the Caribbean from being developed so that the Templars could gain even more power and cause a loss of freedom for the people who lived there. This is shown in the various Assassin missions Edward can help them with.The Templars were in charge of shipping guns around the Caribbean and working with the British to stop piracy along with building up the Caribbean as a vassal state for the British as they tried to find the Observatory to mind control the people in this new vassal state for The Greater Good™.>don't even know what that was about, but everyone's a cuntNot true at all. The Assassins and Templars were actively working together and setting aside their differences with de la Serre and Mirabeau meeting regularly. It was Bellec and Germaine from each side respectively sabotaging that with the former murdering people in the Assassin Brotherhood because he didn't believe they could find a middleground while the latter was a Sage who wanted to cause chaos. The Austrian Rite even has its leader travel to France to try and continue to foster peace between the Assassins and Templars until Arno kills him by mistake due to misunderstanding that he wasn't the leader behind everything.>the templars are assholes but are not actively making anything worseDude, Starrick is mustache-twirling levels of evil. They actively sponsor the gangs to abuse the population, they force kids to work in the factories with no care for their safety, they pollute England just because they can, they use modern science and medicine to actively undermine their respective fields, and Roth just murders people because it gets him off.
>>724151604What, did you miss it in the previous games where they already beat you over the head that "sometimes the Templars are the baddies, sometimes the Assassin's are the baddies, it's a big back and forth conflict that only serves the greater machinations of Those Who Came Before." You didn't need to get all the way to Rogue to know that and make this complaint.What am I saying. It's Assassin's Creed. Of course you niggers zoned out at any instance of the plot and just started complaining instead
>>724158163>the previous games where they already beat you over the head that "sometimes the Templars are the baddies, sometimes the Assassin's are the baddiesLiterally never happened. Modern day, Abstergo are the dystopian overlords that want to mindbreak the entire planet. AC1, actual true Assassins like Altaïr and Malik triumph over corrupt tyrants like Robert and Al Mualim. Ezio's trilogy, every Assassin is a goody two-shoes and every Templar a moustache-twirling villain. AC3, Charles Lee is a caricature. Unity, Germain and Robespierre fan the flames of chaos inciting the French Revolution. This "muh two sides" is retarded and was never ever the point of a narrative that from the get go put you in the shoes of the Assassin Desmond to try and stop the Templars from brainwishing the entire fucking planet.
>>724158163>sometimes the Templars are the baddies, sometimes the Assassin's are the baddiesThe only times the Assassins are baddies is in Rogue, arguably Revelations, Chronicles Russia, and in the interim period of the Hidden Ones being formed when Aya and Bayek didn't introduce the Creed in its entirety yet so they were justifying certain unnecessary kills.In 1, 3, Unity, Origins (If you go by what Bayek and Aya were doing vs. the OotA), and Odyssey (Only the OotA, not the Cult) both sides have their merits.In 2, ACB, Chronicles China, Chronicles India, Syndicate, Valhalla, and Shadows they're all outright evil with no real justifications for what they do outside of Valhalla's leader who just wants a true Christian theocracy instead of Isu worship, but the rest of his crew want humanity subjected as slaves to the Isu.>it's a big back and forth conflict that only serves the greater machinations of Those Who Came Before.The Isu don't care about the conflict whatsoever. It literally does not matter to them outside of Germaine in Unity and that's just because he's Aita who has become a nihilist because he can't get Juno back. I think Aletheia was the only Isu who cared at all what the Assassin/Templar conflict would be about and that was basically just telling Kassandra to go collect Pieces of Eden so neither side would have an advantage. Juno, Minerva, Jupiter, and I forget the other one only followed the Assassin/Templar conflict insofar as to get an Apple to Desmond, they didn't do anything to influence it.
>>724158648>Just lists the main conflicts of the gamesBrother, it's called Assassin's Creed. Of course you play the ones where the Assassin's are the protagonists. It's the stories WITHIN the stories and dialogue stated by the characters that touches on these details>>724159098*farts on you*Eat shit Moose. You're in every one of these threads and no one cares that you're a big ol nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd
>>724154445I can't comment on Liberation since I haven't played it. But the whole point is that Connor is a naive idealist who cling to his beliefs and doesn't try to see it from the perspective of others. It falls in line with him using the brotherhood as a means to an end rather than something he was inducted to because he truly believe in it. It's why his naivety keeps getting mentioned during his victims' deaths.Granted, there are issues with the way this was setup. Mostly how most things went smoothly for him. But I always interpreted the last scene of the game as him pondering whether he did the right thing.
>>724157234>>ac1 the villain is the assassin leaderHe's the villain because he is working with the templars.
>>724159256>It's the stories WITHIN the storiesAt no point where the Templars and their goals the good result in ACs 1, 2, Bro, Rev, 3, Black Flag or Unity. I will accept the concession.
>>724155935>Then you have Achilles, Hope, and Liam for zero reason throwing rank and cold shoulder Shay despite Shay's entire mission being unbelievably important to Achilles. It's never explained why they do it.It's because to Colonial assassins were arrogant as fuck and just refused to believe that what they're doing was destroying the world. As Achilles said to Shay>We have a responsibility! Meanwhile Hope an Liam, while friendly and a friend with Shay, are going to put Achilles and the botherhood first when they're forced to choose since Shay is still undisciplined even after his accomplishments.Achilles only realizes he fucked up when he actually sees what's in the temple itself, and is willing to stop, so it's not like he's completely blinded by power either.
>>724159098>The Isu don't care about the conflict whatsoeverThey don't have to. That's not a pre-req to that statement. That's what made Ezio's story so great: that everything about his life and getting inducted into this conflicted was forseen and laid forth in part by the Isu, and all it's for is just for him to be a glorified cameraman. It's ironic, but precisely what elevates the Assassin/Templar conflict is that it's all secondary to everything with the Isu and in many ways serves their nonsense, but the Isu don't care about them at all.
>>724159575>At no point where the Templars and their goals the good result in ACs 1, 2, Bro, Rev, 3, Black Flag or UnityThose are the stories, dumbass. Not the stories within the stories. Good lord, this isn't even an issue of reading comprehension, you just failed to read the post at all.
>>724151604I hate Rogue so much for how much it downplayed the american brotherhood. It didn't need to exist. In fact, thinking about how it fell down is a mystery that should've never been answered.
>>724159575Unity has two Templar groups which are de la Serre's and Germaine's. de la Serre's was objectively the good one as was the Austrian Rite as they were actively trying to work with the Assassins to find a common ground and do better for France with both their ideas in place. It's Germaine and Bellec who both undermined that ideal, the former because he's a nihilistic asshole who can't get to Juno so he's gonna take everyone down with him and caused the French Revolution, the latter because he refuses to accept that there could be peace between the two groups so he undermined peace talks and actively killed his own people.>But I always interpreted the last scene of the game as him pondering whether he did the right thing.Did you listen to the epilogue from Forsaken? The book is canon to the story.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g59vyPocZQQConnor did believe he failed in the end but he sees a hopeful future, and then the comics that show him afterwards with his kid and wife that he had grown and found more of a purpose.>>724159620I guess. You just made it sound more like they actively guide the conflict in a way when they really just place things in specific places in their time period so certain people do certain things their math machines say will happen so that Desmond and Layla can utilize them. Their actions ultimately serve the Isu goals but the conflict is nothing to them.
>>724159525Yeah honestly while I think the AC3 plot is a bit all over the place that ending scene with Connor in his village is very well done. Connor his entire adult life was used to benefit others, and his one objective before even becoming an assassin is betrayed by the people who he helped win a war for
>>724159619>It's because to Colonial assassins were arrogant as fuck and just refused to believe that what they're doing was destroying the world.>are going to put Achilles and the botherhood first when they're forced to choose since Shay is still undisciplined even after his accomplishments.They're going to put Achilles first but that doesn't change the fact that they refused to speak to him for literally the entire day after a single argument. Neither of them went to ask to explain things in more detail after he calmed down. Not even Achilles tried to ask about this. They just let him sit there and do something stupid out of anger. This is like if you hired someone to deliver goods to a store, it's actually mafia owned and they hold your driver hostage for a week, he gets released, drives back after you haven't seen him for days after not answering calls, and he immediately begins to say you hired the mafia members to kill him before storming out and refusing to explain anything.Both sides acted like idiots and not like anyone would if presented this same scenario, especially not when a Piece of Eden is at stake and especially when Shay was not describing an Apple of Eden to Achilles which he thought it was. This entire scene when Achilles realizes it's not an Apple should have already been covered before the betrayal even happened.>>724159525Whoops, meant to quote you >>724160640. Both your posts ended in a 5 so I thought I accidentally quoted the same person twice.
>>724151604None of the Assassins were ever good at any point. And by the time of Black Flag they're literally lead by a gay couple kek.
Maybe it's time I actually play Rogue and Liberation.What's the best way to play them today?
>>724162953Rogue Remastered on consoles since it comes with all the DLC and I believe it had better textures than what's on PC. Barring that just play the PC version.Liberation HD because it has a better money management system than what the Vita had, looks better, and runs better. Keep in mind that HD still has all the glitches of the Vita including a glitch that prevents you from 100%ing the game if you open a chest before NPCs spawn in a certain location at the bottom-right of the swamp.
>>724151604AC3 was the same shit, during Haytham's section him and his buddies acted like normal people but the moment you switch to Connor all of them turn into cartoons.
>>724162953I recommend not playing Liberation at all. That game is absolute dogshit.
love all the boat asscreeds even odysseyjust wish we got a REAL ship like a frigate the brig always looks so stumpy and silly
>>724156562>Nuance would mean it doesn't take a sidenuance doesn't mean you can't choose a side ultimately, it means you present each side faithfully before you choose. Rogue is literally a story with nuance, because he decides he's batting for the wrong side and switches when presented theirs.
>>724163675>it means you present each side faithfully before you chooseBut they don't present either side faithfully. They do a 180 on how they act as soon as the betrayal happens. The Assassins are presented as correct even if the Templars are asking them if they are, and then as soon as Shay becomes a Templar the Assassins are presented as morally bankrupt and insane while the Templars are presented as correct. Adewale is literally the only character who bucks this trend and stays normal when Shay is on both sides.When Shay is an Assassin Achilles is shown to be caring but rash, Hope is shown to be loving and honest, Liam is shown to be forward, Kesegowaase is shown to care for his people and the Brotherhood even if he's cold to everyone around him, and Chevalier is shown to be honorable and wanting to keep the world safe even if he's an asshole to Shay specifically. The Templars are all presented as questionable in their motives and actions but undeniably doing bad things. The Assassins are trying to keep stability in the world, the Templars are trying to overtake it.When Shay is a Templar Achilles is shown to be unhinged until the ending, Hope is shown to be some sort of poison peddler aiming to strongarm everyone who wants to lull in Shay with her honeyed words, Liam is shown to be murderous and one-track, Kesegowaase is shown to be an unhinged savage who just wants to kill Shay and the people around him, and Chevalier is shown to be a man who will let people die to keep the manifest or whatever it was out of Shay's hands. The Templars are all presented as patron saints with Haytham being presented as a man who let go of his Assassin past and learned to fight the good fight, Monroe is presented as the kindest man to ever live who just wants to repair the harm the Assassins have brought to the land, black guy wants to stop the poison, Gist is the friendliest man you could ever meet, and the AC3 crew are all rallying the troops and kind.
>>724152349>Only in the trilogy are they pure mindless evil.Not true. They all had reasonable objectives and some were even sympathetic. Just, Ezio wasn't a retard and could point out the underlying issues in their methods. Later in the series the protagonists turned into drooling morons whose only retort to the enemy always boils down to "SHUT UP SHUT UP AAAAHHHH!!" No wonder that makes the templars look more balanced.
>>724163141ThanksI play on PC, so it's the PC version for meI'm fine with not 100% it. I'm more interested in the story>>724163535Regardless. I would like to give it an honest try. I remember wanting to play it back then but I didn't have a Vita.
>>724163656>just wish we got a REAL ship like a frigate the brig always looks so stumpy and sillyhttps://www.nexusmods.com/assassinscreedivblackflag/mods/22
>>724155164>>724161116Shay's glow up as a Templar has to be Propaganda. The man he went from looking like a mulleted pornstached Discord leftie personality to a fine gentleman
>>724151604It actively pisses me off that Shay got no comeuppance at all for his deeds and yet Adewale who was arguably one of the most normal non-crazy Assassins just gets killed in a random shitty 'boss fight'. Probably one of my most hated AC games and that includes Liberation...
>>724155935He's also the reason for fucking up Arno's entire life at the start of Unity.
>>724155141>that file name
>>724151604assassins creed was always nortubel tier
>>724161116They probably felt like it was better for him to cool off first given how he burst in screaming at Achilles talking about stuff they didn't think could happen.
>>724168747For the entire day? I understand giving him a few hours to cool off but he was there from morning until sunset and by that point the entirety of the Homestead was waiting to jump him because they knew he'd go for the box and book. He's still their only direct knowledge of what happened at Lisbon, he's the only one who went there, his entire reason for going there was to get an Apple of Eden, and he clearly didn't come back with it.
