What killed RTS?
Korea
dota was the first strike and league of legends was the final nail in the coffintldr: mobas
>>724181460rts went away from having cool huge battles to focusing on how tweaking buildtimes introduces a more complex gamestate for those above 200apm who can exploit it
>>724181460meta
E-Sports
Half of RTS players wanted to have a chill singleplayer experience where they got to feel big brain. The other half wanted A BILLION APM AT ALL TIMES AND THE ENTIRE FOCUS IS ON MULTIPLAYER OR ELSE THIS GAME IS DOGSHIT and the second half won out. And then Dota came along and offered more APM opportunities, so those people who won the RTS argument just left to play MOBAs instead and RTS was officially dead.
>>724181460I killed it. Sorry
Attempts to reach console market and genre stagnation are probably main reasons.
retardation of the masses
>>724181954Well... anyone has a rez?
>>724181460Starcraft and Generals overstayed their welcome, SC2 didn't hit as big as people hoped it would. General genre and community stagnated to a critical point and then League and Dota2 sauntered up and scooped up most of SC/SC2's big players and their fans and all the money followed. Outside of the main RTS current you had little pockets like Relic's output or The Total War games going strong, but those never had anywhere near the professional league interest like Generals or SC1/2 had.
>>724181460>gookclick, APM, build orders, etc.DO PEOPLE JUST NOT REMEMBER UMS MAPSAM I GOING FUCKING INSANE
>>724181460carpal tunnel syndrome
>>724181460The real hard truth is that most people who want to like RTS games and claim to like RTS games don't actually like playing RTS games.Psueds want to say they like RTS games because they think they are smart so they should like strategy games but they get completely filtered by the real time aspect of RTS games, crying about APM or build orders.
>>724182004The Console blitz was honestly pretty fucking crazy. Hijacked (and killed) C&C, Endwars, Battle For Middle Earth 2, Ruse, Sup Com 2, Warhammer Mark of Chaos, Universe at War. ALL of it flopped
>>724182512the real hard truth is you're a fucking retard because people who like RTS games keep playing the same RTS games for 20 years because nothing better than them has come out in all that time
>>724182632That's cool but it doesn't have anything to do with what I said.
>>724182797It does which makes you a double retard.>people who want to like RTS games [...] don't actually like playing RTS games.They factually in fact thoughever DO like and keep playing RTS games. Nigger.
>>724182925I think you misunderstood. People who play RTS games don't "want to like them" they do like them and are not what I'm talking about or really relevant to the question of the thread.
>>724181460having to learn how to play them
Normies started gayming and got filtered by RTS, companies want to sell games, normies don't buy RTS
>>724182512People in general really seem to like the management aspect of RTS games. But bounce off hard when they hit the multiplayer and go up against people playing to win. It's the same thing as "fans" of fighting games. Lots of them mald hard as fuck when they realize they're not going to be able to get their feel good chemicals from winning without effort. Ranked matchmaking shoving every type of player together is a mistake at baseline.
Because the average casual wants a Real Time Strategy game where>you can take your time and chill no rushing, time and APM shouldn't matter in a REAL TIME strategy>you can build whatever the fuck you want, build orders are for fags bro, who needs STRATEGY in a real time STRATEGY game So in essence they want a real time strategy game that isn't real time and has no strategy.
>>724181460The fact that none of them could live up to SC/WC
>>724183634So SupCom 1 vs a.i., or any of the hundreds of rooms of no rush games in any game with a browser. By that metric their needs were more than met in the 00's and the genre still died when publishers took all their money over to chase the MOBA fad.
>>724183634that's exactly right retard everybody just wants tiberian sun/ra2 back
There's still no better RTS game than SC2 for the past decade
>>724181460We peaked with warcraft 3 and StarCraft, everything went downhill from there own.
>>724182282yeah i played brood war UMS maps for years and years. i also love the campaign for that game.
>>724181460rising game budgets forcing AAA games to go multiplat and publishers realizing there was just no way to make a good RTS function with a controller
>>724182282>DBZ All Sagas>Special Forces>Sunken D>Raccoon City>Tarpit Defense>Diplomacy>Heaven's Last Stand>EVOLVES>Random Bunker D>Cat and Mouse>Helm's Deep>Poker D
>>724181460What's killing everything else>low quality gameplay that is somehow 50 steps back from past games>no new innovation, interesting features or creative gameplay additions since the nu devs are barely capable of cobbling together a generic baseline version of whatever genre game they are making>diversity bullshit where the human factions are black and brown people clad in european aesthetics and values and the non-human factions often worse springing from the same source>pve is suffering through a half-baked janky campaign and a fanfiction tier story with very "subtle" symbolism about whatever fotm social and political issues the writer wanted to make a statement about at the time of writing>pvp (if it exists) will immediately overshadow pve with no-fun-allowed balancing as they desperately attempt to force an esports scene before there is even any real interest in playing the game at all, only to be broken upon the altar of THE META about 2 days after release>hell, now no-fun-allowed balancing is even enforced in games that have no pvp
>>724181460Broodwar.
>>724181460>Korea>E-Sports>MOBAs, specifically LoL and Dota 2
>>724181460losing its core playerbasecompfags moved to mobaautists moved to those map-painting games or city builders
>>724182512No, the truth is people want a single player RTS with a good campaign but everyone is making multi-player shit for the esport money that will never come
>>724183634>t. uses build orders someone else devised and can't not sweat
>>724184726these sound nice.I grabbed starcraft broodwar (OG) so I might as well grab some old custom maps if I can track any of them down.got any more to list?
>>724185814Yeah anyone who actually plays RTS games uses build orders
>>724186261>missing the point that hardAlways love to see "uhh ackshually you're not as smart as you think" retards expose themselves as the biggest retards
>>724186261We need to separate single player and multiplayer RTS, because I have never used build orders or even knew what APM wasYou people sound deranged to me
Same thing that killed fighting games, people don't want to be responsible for their failure, which is why DOTA and other team games where you can blame your teammates or matchmaking got so big while all solo multiplayer games fell by the wayside
RTS games are a hell of a lot better when you play the team modes, but every RTS holdout tryhard wannabe like to pretend those modes don't exist. Starcraft 2 for example was incredibly fun in 3on3. Company of Heroes, I don't know how you play that shit 1on1. Supcom? Don't even get me started.
I think the most charming UMS maps of Brood War are the ones with full OC characters and stories, it's a neat way to try to draft ideas
>>724181460Esport chasing. Lack of innovation.
>>724182512The real low IQ people are the ones who think starcrafft is a RTS though.
>>724186382Is RTS the genre with the biggest dimorphism between single player and online?They are basically completely different genres
Pikmin. They then carried it off to their onions for a total of ten seeds.
My fist completion of BW's True Colors took 3.5 hours game time, not including reloads.I enjoyed every second of it. I should be the target audience, not the sweats who jump around chasing esports metas, those who will drop the game in a heartbeat.
>>724186342>hurr durr le exposed durf durfIf you had a point you'd just say it instead of trying to hide behind vague ironic jabs.>>724186382Its like a chess opener. You'd hardly call yourself a chess player if you didn't understand chess openers. A build order is pretty much just your opening strategy in an RTS, for example you might choose to fast castle or scout rush and a build order is what gets you there most effectively.This angers single player casuals because they don't want to apply any sort of strategy and want to just build whatever and be competitive somehow.
>>724181460Everyone trying to copy starcraft instead of warcraft 3All devs chasing e-sports is what killed the genre.
>>724186715Except in single player it doesn't matter or depends on the missionMaybe the scenario will have enemies zerg you right away so you need to focus on building defenses
>>724186715I like the comparison to Chess openings because both Chess openings and RTS build orders are incredibly hard to intuit for like, 95% of average players. It is unlikely anyone in this thread would figure out the optimal build order in an RTS game without consulting some sort of online resource. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I fail to see that as a fault of the player for not wanting to engage in that kind of system.
the genre is fundamentally unfunonce everyone realized it, it was over
>>724186715>If you had a point you'd just say itI already stated my point, but if you're too retarded to get it, that's your problem because you're a fucking retard.But go ahead, follow your flowchart and feel smart, doesn't matter to me. Just know I can never respect a "person" like you.
>>724181583fpbpesports faggotry killed RTS and it will never ever recover
>>724181460RTS players.If there were a competition to decide which is more disgusting and obnoxious, the final round would be a tryhard fighting game player versus a tryhard RTS player. No one wins.
I just liked building a ton of boats in Age of Empires 2.
>>724187170This, just give us a good single player came and fuck off with your esports bullshit
>>724186916Depends on game I guess. In stuff like AOE2 on harder difficulties it helps a lot. >>724186995>but I fail to see that as a fault of the player for not wanting to engage in that kind of system.I don't disagree but I do think its a reason why RTS isn't massively popular. Its a big barrier for entry similar to learning combos and shit in fighting games.>>724187097Embarrassing meltdown. Learn how to have a discussion.
>>724181460Everyone who liked the building aspect moved on to city builders.
>>724185814>it's such an alien concept to anon that someone could just use his brain to come up with a "build order"Truly we reach new lows.I am however reminded of a time I was playing some casual shit Age of Darkness co-op with a friend and he accused me of looking up guides because I managed to get a fast tech going that I had slowly been improving over the past 4 matches.Is it really so difficult to just look at something and understand what steps needs to be taken in order to reach your goal? While observing what is faster and what is slower with each iteration?Apparently so.
25 years later people are still playing Starcraft and modded TA in the form of SC2 and BAR
>>724187418>BARWhat's 4on4 like in that game? I remember playing a ton of map called "seton's clutch" in Supcom and I remember it having this weirdly cool defined meta where players were expected to focus certain kinds of units depending on which of the 4 spawns they got. I had so much fun playing that as a kid and wouldn't mind trying something like that again, if 4on4 is still popular.
RTS campaigns were essentially military themed puzzle games where you could solve them in a myriad of ways, fast or slow, extravagant basebuilding or destitute speedrunning, and were really fun for all ages. It just turns out that every conceivable fun campaign was already created by 2003, and after that the world shifted from single player games to multiplayer online, where RTS taken to its logical esport extreme is really boring and not fun for the original demographic.
>>724181460No casual appeal and the gameplay is incompatible with consoles>b-but casuals and consoles bad!Casuals make the vast majority of gamers and consoles were the biggest gaming platforms between the 80s and mid 10s, so devs turned to genres that appealed to casuals and console players as they were considered more profitable
>>724187897>gameplay is incompatible with consolesMy first RTS game was Starcraft 64 and I had tons of fun. I imagine with double the analog stick you could do some interesting things to make the controls work in an RTS game.
>>724181460RTS multiplayer is just memorising something some gook came up with and hoping the other guy stole from a player worse than you did, there’s no strategy at all
>>724181460They always try to water down the gameplay to appeal to people who hate RTS or high tune the gameplay for RTS ascended mutants. They should be focusing on a fun game where you can do cool stuff.RPGs were doing the same thing for the longest time.Also, they need to come out with a solid and compelling story. I know there have been plenty of RTS games that don't have that, but the battles of Alexander/Caser/etc are cool because they are a part of their story.
>>724188038thats cope
>>724187897>just appeal to a wider audience goyKill yourself.
>>724181460
>>724188164NTA but going for the most extreme example of Gookclick with SC2, at what point in the game are you no longer really following the "build order." Like, when does the formulaic nature of your opening start to break down and more dynamic decisions start to affect your gameplay? For how long are good players playing "perfectly?" Like in Chess it usually takes 8-12 moves for a position to be broken open into a new game, how long that does take in Starcraft 2? Or if you're more familiar with a different 1on1 game feel free to use that.
>>724181460Nothing. The Genre is fine.
>>724188357>Like, when does the formulaic nature of your opening start to break down and more dynamic decisions start to affect your gameplay?Depends on the strategy implemented.
RTS is alive THOUGHhttps://youtu.be/B6aemMOFDpQ
>>724188504Do feel free to elaborate.
>>724188357build orders essentially stop at point of first contact with enemy. if you get rushed and you were going for a long term strat then you have to figure out how respond to the enemy strategy. if the enemy isnt rushing you then you know that they are doing some long term strat too, so you need to scout them and see what sort of strat they are applying and what types of units they are building and adapt accordingly.retards who don't actually play rts think build orders are actually a completely static thing you rotely input each time when really its more like an idealized guide.
It never died.
>>724181460its not dead. i play rts games everyday
>>724188357In SC2 you either get rushed and have to scramble out of the formulaic build order or you see they arent rushed and tweak the generic build order into one of the three meta build orders meant to counter the enemy for that patch.
>>724188594Obviously there are a set of steps that must be taken, which is true for any game.You must gather the resources in RTS. You must shoot at your enemies in FPS. You must do the dance in Fighting games.All RTS has their build-phase where not a whole lot is happening and you're just gathering resources opening up tech-paths and preparing for whatever goal you have in mind. Which is why I said it depends on whatever strategy you have in mind.If the plan is to simply rush the enemy, then you quickly deviate from the "formulaic" and enter the dynamic. It also depends on what your opponent chooses for his strategy.
nuDevs can't craft>Interesting stories>Fun campaigns>Compelling characters>Memorable quotes>Unique artstyles>Highly replayable skirmish
>>724188249Siege Tanks are just superior tech
>>724188685Hell yeahhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4AvJtSTmg
low player countwhy is there low player count?why would deserts of carrot cake fail?anyone's guess apparently a boomer game like aoe2 are what the kids like
>>724181460Can't please tourneyfags and you can't please chinstrokers.
god was mad people were playing rts games soley for multiplayer and skipping the main quest
>>724188915>You must shoot at your enemies in FPS.In my favorite shooter, QuakeWorld, there is a very formulaic start for all the TDM maps, and the formula typically breaks when the controlling team makes their first mistake. Furthering that, even when control is broken, you can regain it and continue playing the "optimal"/formulaic/etc strategy. I of course would never expect a new player to understand this. I'm just trying to understand how it works in an RTS game. Especially when you watch someone play one online, the way they vocalize their strategic process, it can kind of feel like everything is just set in stone and has a defined answer. What are the dynamic elements in an RTS game? In Warcraft 3 I understand micro to be a huge part between body blocking units, using your unit abilities 100% effectively, abusing aggro mechanics to jungle more efficiently, stuff like that. I could be wrong, but it feels like utilizing these mechanics to their fullest is one of the ways you can "break the mold" so to say. I inherently understand these games aren't all just opening strategy otherwise the mid and late game would be a formality.
>>724189070>why would deserts of carrot cake fail?Well for one you couldn't play "cross platform". I bought it on steam and couldn't play it with a friend who had it on GOG, at least I think it was GOG.So that was a dumb decision.
>>724182512You will never understand because you've never played an RTS where build orders and APM weren't major factors. I will NEVER like RTS games with shitty underfunctional UIs that care more about execution than anything else no matter how butthurt it makes you.
You aren’t going to want to hear this but mobas made them obsolete
>>724181460>>724181460metagamingefficiency, low risk strategies, high win strategies, quick wins so that the opponent can't counterplaywhen every match feels the same you've killed your game
>>724189324They aren't a major factor though. You can go play any RTS in ranked multiplayer with other shitters who dont care about that stuff because there is matchmaking.
Reading this thread it's clear that multiplayer killed RTSReturn to single player
>>724189519when i was a kid i'd spend DAYS on the same mission in c&c
>>724186715Except complaining about how chess openers are formulaic is legitimate and a legitimate reason to not enjoy the game.
>>724189275Oh climb down from your high horse. This brazen fart-huffing makes you look like a retard.Of course you're going to choose quake because you're not a casual, not on the V the videogames board.>I of course would never expect a new player to understand thisIt's really not that difficult to understand the concept of arena shooters.And you already answered your own question. Deviation occurs when you encounter the enemy. Sometimes the enemy is yourself, because it's difficult playing perfectly. Mistakes will be made, even at the highest level, which is a core foundation of RTS.>abusing aggro mechanics to jungle more efficientlyYour mobafaggotry is showing. It's called CREEPING.
>>724189465Yes they are.
>>724181460They are overly complicated fighting games, I like playing both of these against bots and am willing to take it to highest difficulty for each game over time. I do not wish to play against no lifers. Perhaps a more hours and wins ratio should push these monsters into niche social circles.
>>724189659Yeah in which case you would just say you don't like Chess and go play something else. But people pretend to like RTS games despite hating everything about them.
>>724189465>BAR>MatchmakingLOL
>>724189750How so? What's stopping you from playing low elo matches against other low elo players who don't use build orders or have high apm?
>>724189785see >>724189519fuck off esports faggot
>>724189519I used to disagree with this opinion but after seeing a couple post-SC2 RTS games eat shit, I've come around.Nobody, relativity speaking, is playing a multiplayer RTS. You see the same few hundred pros and tryhards hopping between games, but the general public isn't staying interested.
>>724189732>Of course you're going to choose quakeI'm not going to bother reading the rest of your negative post. No one is "choosing" anything. I'm trying to understand the greater strategy behind RTS games outside of the obvious formulaic aspects. Something tells me you're a bronze at best SC2 player trying to just start a genrewar because you're insecure.
>>724189831Does BAR have ranked multiplayer but no matchmaking? Huh?
>>724189785Except formulaic openers that require execution skill are not inherent to RTS.
>>724189937>projectingAlright we're done here. I'll put this in simple terms for you:You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded.
>>724190004You know you could just not reply if you don't understand RTS games.
>>724189958Except they are? Its literally just an optimisation of the gameplay. You can't make an RTS without there being some sort of most efficient opening strategies.
>>724190110No they're not you fucking retard.
>>724190110If you don't make it focusing on MP to chase for esports money that will never come, it wouldn't matter
>>724190083You could also just kill yourself, yet here we are.
>>724184726Thanks anon, I forgot many of the names but special forces, sunken D, dbz heroes, night of the living dead
They should just do what chess960 did and make every building have a random cost, every barracks style building have random units, and every unit has random stats/cost, let people actually think about their choices in the game instead of buying 200x of the same unit because that’s the meta
>>724181460>What killed RTS?Anti-fun designSupply caps are gay and retardedEvery unit being hyper OP and simultaneously total trash because of low TTK and hard counters (like CnC Generals and SC2) is gay and retardedForced "objectives" on maps you need to rush (like the later CnC games and Tempest Rising) are gay and retardedGookclick (like for example every fucking unit requiring ability micro to be useful, le epic garrisoned infantry instant death units in Generals, and disjoint spam like garrisoning-ungarrisoning and transport loading-unloading) is gay and retarded
>>724185979Starship troopersHydra defenseTrying to think of others. I feel like half of whats listed so far itt may require additional players
Company of Heroes 1 (only the first) was PEAK RTS. Second was Red alert 2 and Warcraft 3 then Total Annihilation. Tactical back and forth over timing and tech over resources, ensures ragequitters or noobs think they still can win. Nothing sucks more than a player leaving because they lost an early advantage. Plus games like Starcraft are pure APM and no brain blobbling/stacking, not a way you actually want.
>>724190152Explain why you think that. Genuinely curious how you think you could design an RTS without there being "formulaic" openers.>>724190164Even games with no multiplayer have build orders. As I said, its just optimising your strategies.
>>724181460I still watch fresh uploads of Dawn of War 2 pvp
>>724190461You can have fun in SP with sub optimal build ordersIn MP you'll just lose every single game until you look them up
>>724190393fine with me.examining what they setup is half of the fun
>>724186689those fucking bastards
>>724181460nobodyRTS = strategy games in real timeRTS ≠Command&Conquer clonesFPS = shooter games in first personFPS ≠Doom clones
>>724190110I can have 90% of any possible """opening strategy""" in BAR queued before the match starts and it will end the moment I have a factory up.Timings are not a concern. Having to click efficiently is not a concern. The single most difficult thing is clicking the construction unit I'm building to queue its actions ahead of time, which has a very long grace period thanks to build time and travel time. If I'm even lazier than that I can blueprint most of it and bang it out in later matches in 3 seconds on the fly.You are a massive faggot for pretending that's equivalent to some 7pool bullshit.
>>724190543>In MP you'll just lose every single game until you look them upThis just tells me you never even tried to play MP. You can play against low elo people who don't do any sort of shit like that. Go watch T90's Low Elo Legends series, none of those niggas are using build orders. You just have too much of an ego to play MP at a low rank.
>>724186261Nobody who plays supcom uses a build order longer then 4 steps
>>724190461Because TA and its descendants exist, and especially Zero-K which went out of its way to make them not exist.
>>724182141StarCraft 2 was a huge disappointment. Blizzard actively enforced meta during wings of liberty and everyone hated it. They wouldn't let the game develop on its own and they nerfed reapers, nukes, DTs,etc, because it wasn't fun for esportsBlizzard also refused to let people make complex custom games because they wanted to monetize that aspect and that backfired. The game itself failed because one WoW mount makes more profit than an entire game's lifetime sales.
>>724181819This. In older RTS games you'd sit down and play the multi hour campaign, maybe some custom maps online, then if you really cared you'd play proper pvp online. Now a days you just have that last part, which was like 1% of the actual RTS audience back in the day.
>>724186715A build order in gookclick defines the first 15-20 minutes of a match. This isnt comparable to an opener in chess.
>>724181460Zerg rush
>>724190819Lmao yes they do retard?
>lose in fps>ohh I see I didn’t know you sit there, I’ll be sure to check there next time>lose in rts >hmm maybe I should have built two extra villagers 14 minutes ago or perhaps I should have built one extra military unit instead of building a forge 8 minutes ago?
>>724190910this is almost somewhat similar to what actually happened
>>724190910To be fair WoL's balance was GARBAGE.>close position lost templelollmao even
>>724190910Wasnt blizz's meddling with the meta even worse with later expansions? All I remember about the zerg expansion was every new patch featuring some new mega OP unit that made every match miserable.
>>724190910*murders all your workers with reapers at the 40 second mark for the 80th time today*
>>724190801Sorry, no, I actually did play Starcraft. And Warcraft. You'll get your shit pushed in over and over by smurfs. It's been that way since the 90s.
>>724191403>but not before building a bunker (which can be refunded for 100% of the cost btw) at your expansion
>>724191435Smurfing definitely was not prevalent in original SC. Fake and gay.
>>724191584Yes it was, are you fucking retarded? People would make new accounts on bnet all the time the moment they lost to inflate their stats.
I need to try some new RTS games. What are the good ones for a fun singleplayer campaign?
>>724191364>it's a "Blizz adds a zerg unit that prints infinite free units or free long range artillary damage into the game" episodeSC2 zerg has to be one of the gayest and most retarded factions in any RTS ever
>engaging story>interesting gameplay varietyWhy has no game other than Warcraft 3 managed to do this?
For me, its AoE2 campaign mode.
>>724188357most people don't understand the point of build orderThey'll give you a plan to follow and a win condition, sure, but eventually you notice the timings and you can then transition to "knowing" what you're supposed to do when you want to do X.For example, if you've been doing a 2 rax stim timing you can easily refine it into a 1 1 1 just by "getting the feel", but really knowing, how much scv you need on gas to afford 100 at such timing, 250 at such other etcIn the end the build order just helps you develop your economy to reach a desired amount of resources at a given timing but you can do anything with those resources
>>724191870Now play a game where that doesn't matter.
>>724190910Blizzard kneecapped it's community with SC2 by including provisions in the EULA that made any custom game the players created for it the sole creative property of Blizzard Ent. So if you accidentally made the next DOTA, in SC2 you couldn't monetize it as a standalone product elsewhere. Some thing so hilariously petty and salty it cast a great big shadow over their most diehard creative fans before the game even came out.
>>724192037Blizz being that fucking mad over Dota is hilarious
>>724189948None of the Spring or Recoil engine games have had matchmaking ever. It's lobby based.
>>724181460Your picrel. I'm serious. Renegade was sort of a good development of the idea of the Dungeon Keeper. DK II got the mix of genres right, but tis a smol game. The shit in your picrel is not an RTS, it's like watching a movie/video.>>724182512I agree. I like strategy games as a concept. I dislike the turbo autismal min maxing and spamming cheapest units to rush the opponent and microdick management. I do play single player and do not complain. Or turn based based strategies.>>724191659your picrel is also why RTS died. Just because it is possible to do everything in 3d and 4d, doesn't mean that one should make it the main camera/view in the game.Commanders, strategists need a massive overwiev not only over the battlefield itself, but also the information about the enemy supplies, movements, outposts, etc.
>>724181460What gaem?
>>724181709>mobasWhy?
>>724192463Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak
>>724184726What was the one about defending deploying Tanks and stopping a lot of waves of enemies?
>>724191949I understand that build order and the following "meta" can be boring but it does feel great to eventually get good by practicing build orders.SC2 was fun even when nothing is happening, at the start of the game, because the build just "flows" out of your fingertips, you don't fear the unknown because you're used to almost anything that could happen
the irony is that there is no strategy in "strategy" games, its all micro and macroAnd then you have mobas coming along with their infinite depth of strategy>>724190769>Casual retard claims he's "only playing for fun", but would also quit if he was raped by a better player every game
>>724192692>I understand that build order and the following "meta" can be boring but it does feel great to eventually get good by practicing build orders.NOITFUCKINGDOESN'T
>>724192837well you're just mad that you never managed to git gudnoone is preventing you from playing against the AI in your corner
>>724181460The more interesting question is given obvious trends, how can developers not see what people like.RTS games used to be slow, played by casuals, single player or coop with a focus on campaign/skirmish and promoted 'turtle' and pretty battles. Then over time, a handful became popular in the esport scene, every RTS game went this direction, and then the RTS genre died.Its like watching someone add lead to water they've drunk for years, slowly going insane, and you then saying "it must have been the water"
>>724192362Renegade should have been like Battlezone II for sure.
>>724193009No, retard, it was not fun to practice build orders whatsoever. It didn't matter whether I got it in the end, it is not fun and it's not rewarding once you've got it down.
>>724193437>it is not fun and it's not rewarding once you've got it downwell it isjust because you didn't like it doesn't mean that other feels the same
>>724193540It isn't because the games don't sell so no one wants to do it
>>724193594What's the best selling RTS of all time?
>>724193540No, it's not. It's horseshit that I don't even want in the genre.
>>724193646The game that underperformed Blizzard's expectations and got fucked on by a Warcraft 3 mod?
hearts of iron IV also has an optimal build order
>>724181460I think combining old RTS with sandbox elements like minecraft seems like what most people want. Build bases and armies, shove that army into some underground complex full of fucked up monsters etc
>>724193661>that Iwell everything isn't about what you personally want. Some people like build orders, in some way it makes the game be similar to chess and some players like it
>>724193594there is a gorillion RTS where build orders are nonexistent and they're ded game
>>724193793
>>724193902if you played those RTS games even somewhat competitively, they would also have optimal build orders...
>>724193661you want baby shit
>>724193924I count as a sale for this and I never touched MP or learned any build orders
>>724194018Almost like you have no point.
>>724193815I don't give a shit what other people like or don't. The problem is that YOU don't seem to understand that there's a difference between what you like in RTS and what the core of RTS is. Fucking familiarize yourself with other styles of RTS already.
>>724181460No anime waifus for coomers. Not live service gacha for subhumans.
>>724193971not every game can have build orders, it depends on the map philosophy and if the game has rng or notSC2 was a game that is somewhat "solveable" which is why build orders were so big thereIn Aoe4 for example the concept of build order exist a lot less because you don't know how the resources will be spread on the map
>>724194117nah I prefer the best and most popular RTS games of all time.
>>724181460compfags. metafags
>>724194117you're just retarded man, I'm sorryLooks like you yourself don't understand what RTS mean and how games with build orders can be RTS too
>>724194083My point is MP killed RTSPeople thought MP was what made Brood War the best selling RTS but it had a great SP campaign
I feel sorry for people who weren't able to experience the golden age of SC and WC3 custom maps.
>>724184726LOTRThe Thing Zombie HotelPleasure Kerrigan
>>724194213Sorry you missed out.
>>724193971No, they wouldn't.
>>724194136https://www.aoeivbuilds.com/
>>724194371have you played this game ? if your gold spawned toward the ennemy or in a difficult to defend from harass position you have to adapt and potentially change things around
>>724194487>you have to adapt and potentially change things aroundSo like StarCraft?
>>724194303Now who doesn't have a point?
>>724194371this guy has a point ->>> >>724194487just because a game has some shitty site listing guides doesn't mean they are any good.by the time AOE IV came out the internet was getting to the point where they weren't particularly trustworthy.
>>724194581My point stands that the most sweaty competitive build order ridden RTS is the best selling RTS of all time. This kills you.
>>724194205RTS doesn't imply execution heavy game where you practice build orders. Thinking they're shit and shouldn't exist isn't the same thing as thinking they're not RTS.
>>724194536not for your starting resource spots????
>>724194536the map is always the same in starcraft, whenever you see that your opponent is doing X you can always do Y the same way to mitigatein Aoe4 you aren't even guaranteed to find all sheeps so things change a lot more between gameyou can't have a proper build order if you don't know how much of a give resource you'll have access too (unless if farms were always better than preys)
>>724194620Oh ok I'll just the believe the 4chan shitter who hates starcraft over the aoe4 build site with thousands of views and likes on each build.
Space battles?
>>724194652And yet every other sweaty competitive build order ridden RTS failed and none of them had a good SP
>>724181460Wait time for a game.
I'm playing farthest frontier and foundationAre they rts?
My heart still goes out to the UED, even though it's been over 2 decades and Starcraft 3 is likely never happening ever (probably for the best)
What's an rts that's more complicated than Halo Wars, but not as complicated as SupCom FAFI love both and I'm okay at supcom but I wanna play something that's more in the middle or maybe closer to halo wars. Is one of the C&Cs good?
>>724194680yeah you're right
>>724194725why are you throwing a tantrum over this????Starcraft has fixed map locations for resource spawns dude.AOE IV does not.So there is nothing stable and static to start with.
>>724194487a game being complex doesn't mean it doesn't have build orders... There is also the micro component where your APM directly competes with another persons APM, same in basically all RTS's
>>724194698The maps being so boring in sc2 was probably the reason I fell out of love with RTS.
>>724194874And both games have tons of build orders. gg no re
>>724194725>thousandsONLY thousands????why the fuck would you EVER trust a sketchy shitter site like that then?
>>724194886>APMMore cancer that killed RTS
>>724194809That depends on why you think SupCom is complicated. If it's because of the sheer amount of units and factions or stuff to track like building adjacency, BAR. If it's because of the sheer amount of things you can do with the interface to optimize your actions, then not BAR.
>>724194919Well there are plenty of RTS that have creative or random maps. If you don't like some aspect of SC2 you can just play something else
Dwindling attention spans.
>>724194942>ONLY thousands????Because aoe4 is trash not my problem
>>724194938>nonsensical babbleok bro
>>724194996Sorry the truth hurts. Competitive aoe is full of build orders. Your pathetic random resources don't matter.
>>724194227>WC3 custom maps>all those less popular dota/aos clones with crazy abilities and items>the zombie apocalypse squad shooter maps>hero siege maps where your stats go up into gorillionsAbsolute cinema
>>724194136The AoE series has a shitton of build orders and variations on them.
>>724181460A focus on competitive play in pursuit of esports bucks scared off the casuals that wanted to just play single player.Then all the compfags switched to MOBAs
>>724194994>>724195029>he's just crashing out harder and harderok bro
>>724195050when did he mention the "series"?and why bother mentioning the series as a whole when the only scene that ever mattered in AOE was II?
>>724195050yeah but they aren't as tight, I did say that it had "lesser build orders"But fine, enough people don't agree with that so just take any other game with rng instead
Clearly the optimal solution here is to spam TIE Maulers.
>>724195170you were perfectly correct in your statements, don't bow down because some wierdo starts having an autism attack over a game that is an insult to its own series.
>>724195170Well reading these aoe4 build orders they have time stamps for every single move you make in the early game and only variation comes from what your opponent is doing exactly like starcraft.
do you guys not remember casual LAN parties and shiet
>>724195170They're still pretty rigid. Not as rigid as Starcraft, but rigid enough that you'll get nowhere without practicing them.
>>724181460planetary annihilation not being good
>>724195645aren't these just timestamp to the video ? you can't be that accurate in AoE, everything could be delayed by rng spawning a sheep 3 meters further than what you expect (or spawning it somewhere hidden)
>>724195787If you don't find it then its delayed by 3 seconds and you keep following the build order.
>>724181460rts games. same with fps games. turns out, it is actually possible to become bored with playing the exact same thing for twenty years. who knew?
Post your RTS unit ideas anons
Homeworld has been the only RTS series I liked. I don't know why.
>>724188249>artillery in reality.
>>724186261By build order you mean:>Build the unit that builds your shit/mines your resources.>build the basic unit to attack/cap.>Do whatever you want from there.Right?
>>724181460RTS was never supposed to remain a genre forever. Blends of genres like C&C Renegade should've become the norm as hardware advanced that you can play like an RTS, FPS, or however you want. The Battlefield series touched on this concept lightly and was wildly successful for it. The demand was absolutely there for the 'everything' game. Even Blizzard's cancelled Starcraft shooter had a planned multiplayer mode that would've just been like Renegade/Battlefield had a baby.Then video game publishers just kinda said 'nah man make everything fucking gay and retarded instead.' The downfall of the industry began way earlier than most people think and the only reason it didn't crash again like in the 80's around 2018-23 was corporate wellfare and now foreign investment after that money started to dry up. No ones actually been making innovative games that advance the medium for twenty years.
>>724194751Thank god I never bought HW3
>>724197586RTS/FPS is a stupid concept, the large scale of RTS means that the FPS side will suffer with less details being added and the demands of shooter gameplayt don't mesh well withthe multitasking of RTS, it's just a novelty that gets old quick.
>>724181460PC gaming, like actual PC gaming where people played PC games instead of console ports, died as a whole.
>>724187274You're a shitty person if you're shit talking your "friend" behind his back.
>>724182512>people don't ACTUALLY like playing RTS they're just pretending to like it>people don't ACTUALLY like playing AFPS they're just pretending to like it>people don't ACTUALLY like playing hard fighting games they're just pretending to like it>people don't ACTUALLY like playing CRPGs they're just pretending to like itThere are few things I hate as much as you retards that cannot comprehend the idea of a niche genre. Once upon a time, gaming was full of lots of these little niches that people played and enjoyed because gaming wasn't flooded like normalfag retards like you yet.
>>724181460>picrelprobably the non-rebindable keys and fucking epic games installer on a steam game. Absolute shit game.
>>724189324Name one multiplayer RTS where neither "build orders" nor APM are major factors.This isn't a trick question, their are valid answers, though obviously they still make you look like a retard and obviously you haven't played them.
>>724197740You're a stupid concept at the genetic level. No one gives a single fuck about graphics anymore but the most obnoxious of normgroids who don't even have the hardware to take advantage of the UE5 slop they spend their wellfare checks on. Its not important, it never was. As long as it looks decent enough to tell whats going on, it works, Planetside 2 is long standing proof of that, even after its catastrophic graphic upgrades upped the requirements while making it look visually worse. It still scales up and runs just fine even on mid hardware.
>>724198165Zero-K
>>724194487>>724194371The reality is obviously somewhere in the middle. You don't win by having a good build order, you win by being able to adapt a decent build order on the fly. Same is just as true in AoE 2 really
>>724181460All the great rts games had good campaigns first, and multiplayer second. Sometimes it had a ton of effort put into the balancing like the StarCraft, but they always had a great campaign. When the advertising started to be geared towards multiplayer the games all started to suck. SC2 advertised the story, not the competitive multiplayer.
>>724181460RTS's peaked with Forged Alliance and nothing else was able to live up to the standard it set. I was so disappointed in Planetary Alliance.
>>724198330Forgot my pic
>>724198296Build orders are absolutely a massive factor there, as they are in all games of the Total Annihilation lineage. They're fundamentally about economic efficiency more than most RTS.
>>724198325>SC2 advertised the story, not the competitive multiplayer.It was literally announced in during a Korean tournament, anon. Just because the advertising you saw was focused on the story doesn't mean the competitive multiplayer wasn't the obvious primary focus.
>>724198170Your entire post is sperging out about one word he said while clearly not even understanding what he was saying. "Details" doesn't mean "graphical details" it means "you cannot command your units in-detail because you're on the fucking ground"
modern rts try to steamline shit way to much like removing base building. RTS players dont want a game this is dumbed down.
>>724198325It was announced in a stadium of BW pros and esport fans and then went into a beta that caused the esport boom in the west. It then went on to sell millions of copies.
>>724189048I sure hope its just a demo and not that the unit actually one shots experimentals That shit would be so costly it'd be unusable in any actual game
>>724198464Incorrect.
>>724192529Because it requires less management and the overall video game population has declined in IQ to the point where managing an economy and military was too overwhelming
>>724198330BAR?
>>724197224>every gun is capable of shooting 60+ degrees in to the skyk
RTS is kind of coming back. Loads of new games in development that look promising.
>>724187694>What's 4on4 like in that game?Pretty goodAny config of players is good for a variety of reasons
>>724192796RTS like Supreme Commander weigh far more into general strategy than micro managing units.
BAR is the only one that lately has kept me playing for about 2 years already
>>724198537Forget the advertising thing. You know what I mean. The production values on a blizzard IP was always huge. StarCraft cutscenes are still incredible. It's an entire universe with a very good story, characters, and fun levels. Yes sc2 was always going to be a competitive game, I've been watching since brood war and slayers boxer I get that. The point is the franchise exists because everything outside multi stands on its own as the best rts campaign ever.
>>724181460Lack of attention span
>>724198464Always needing to build economy is not the same thing as a build order you retard.
>>724200898What economy you build is all a build order is.Please stop talking about genres you don't understand and pretending you know the problem that everyone missed.
>>724200947No, it's not you turbo retard.
>>724200958>n-nuh uhNice argument, faggot
>>724201013>A build order is a linear pattern of actions which includes the management of production and research meant to achieve a specific goal within an acceptable period of time while expending as few resources as possible to do so.
>>724200947There should have been a standard system by now to automate your base layout and tech choices by now. People want to choose these things from a tree and micro their units.
>>724199436That's how artillery works
>>724200179It all matters. The casual multiplayer, the esport and the campaign and story/characters. Everything is important and a factor in StarCraft being the most successful RTS.One thing I've noticed though is the people who love SC multiplayer/esports have no problem with the campaign or co-op or any other casual modes and do not spend time bashing it or trying to get it removed from future titles.The opposite is very true though...casuals and other shitters seethe with rage (see this thread) at "build orders" "gookclick" "competitive" etc and want all 100% of dev time to go to everything and anything else.
>>724201107Then why even have base building at all? Why would you make some awkward system where players can't control what's happening?The simple fact is that no, nobody actually wants that, hence why every game that goes the route of simplifying away the economy fucking sucks and nobody ever played them. You're thinking the exact same thing that RTS developers in the 10s thought. This isn't some grand design you thought up that everyone missed, this is exactly the retarded line of thought that killed the genre.
>>724201107Yeah that was called Battle Aces and nobody played it and it was canceled before release.
>>724181717>broodwar c ladder playerJust kidding i havent played since 2004, I switched to 4x games
>>724201276Bullshit.
>>724201276Broadly I agree, but I don't think Starcraft ever really had much in the way of "casual" multiplayer. It wasn't like an AoE where there was a wide variety in modes and maps people played, complete with lots of 4v4 games that had huge spectacle of scale and the like.Starcraft multiplayer was always built around a more competitive format, even when played at a lower level.
>>724183431The campaign ingrains bad habits in them
>>724201496>but I don't think Starcraft ever really had much in the way of "casual" multiplayerOh please are you kidding me? Prime SC1 battle net was full of 7vs 1 comp stomps, big game hunters, fastest, team games and a million fun UMS maps like tower defense, RPG's, SCV football, cat and mouse etc etcBW multiplayer was more casual than competitive by far.
>>>724183431>Ranked matchmaking shoving every type of player together is a mistake at baseline.The more time goes on the more I realize how true this is. Matchmaking is the single thing that killed videogames harder than anything else. Almost every single fucking problem with the medium can be tied back to it.
there goes the neighborhood
>power overwhelming>black sheep wall>show me the money
Nothing.
>>724181460people stopped broughting
>>724201287Something has to change. Dawn of war had an interesting system based around map control but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of constantly having to juggle resource management, fighting, and building at the same time. Manually building and hot keying all that macro shit isnt very fun long term. Production queues have always been the noob filter but that doesn't make it great design. Everything about rts is like the brute force solution. It's shocking devs allowed having your workers choose mineral patches automatically.
>>724181460>what killed Raping The Swine?Widespread laws prohibiting bestiality.
>>724181460Being too competitive focus instead of fun mechanics I remember having a blast playing star craft 1 because the 3 factions are very different in term of gameplay and how they look. That shit is fire
The widespread halftruth that APM gookclick is all the genre is about and all that actually matters did irreparable damage to the genres appeal for people dipping their toes in.
>>724204353The only thing that has to change is developers understanding that RTS are a niche genre and that dumbing them down doesn't work. The casual audience that just wants to click one unit around and not worry about managing multiple things was captured by the Moba market long ago. Any middleground that remains dedicated gets far more satisfied by RTT games that give far more depth to the minutae of combat than proper RTS games ever could.>the fundamental problem of constantly having to juggle resource management, fighting, and building at the same time. Manually building and hot keying all that macro shit isnt very fun long term.That is exactly what is fun long term, which is why the longest-living RTS games are all the games most built around that.. What you're arguing for is the short term gratification option that can never engage people the way that splitting attention to juggle an entire map of problems does.There's a reason AoE 2 saw a renaissance ever since DE, despite that being the focused on that juggle of any of the big RTS games (constant need to queue units with upfront resources, 4 different resources to weigh/value/gather, much more actively managed economy than Starcraft and the like, etc).
>>724181460Skill requirement. A lot of games are rather simple to pick up and play at a basic level of competence. If you pick up the new Battlefield, you will probably be able to play it at an "alright" level where you don't feel like you're getting shit-stomped very quickly, hell you might even be able to do it right from the start (I could and I'm no FPS god by any means).RTS games require quite a lot of knowledge (units, buildings, special abilities, economic quirks of each faction at least) and also mechanical skill buildup to play at even a minimally competent level, by which I don't mean some particular MMR or some shit but just reaching the point where you feel like you're playing "well" and aren't constantly fucking up and misplaying so badly that it's obvious even to you. When I play RTS I constantly feel like "I know I should be doing this, but it's too difficult or time consuming right now and I'm busy doing this other more important thing" even after I have gotten "decent" at a game. It's too much for most people, it's a very hard filter. The skill ceiling is very high and even the skill floor among a community playing a game isn't going to be super easy to reach for a new player. Most people just can't take it, they're not willing to put that much energy into a game.
>>724199436Skill issue
Are there any rts games that has only the campaign and no pvp?
>>724201646it really is just like fighting games
>>724189958They are though. Your possible actions at the beginning of the game are a limited space. You decide what you want to do and given the standard opening resources you are given, there WILL always be a "best way" to get there.
>>724205250Most defend/survival games like They are billions and Conan Unconquered are purely singleplayer. Age of Darkness being a outlier for having co-op (it's kinda stinky).
>>724181460me
>>724205578Nope.
>>724206009Yes they are. Given a particular starting state when the game begins, there will always be an optimal way to reach some sort of milestone. This is simply a fact.
the "fans" refusing to try the games because they're new and different from WC3/AoE/etc
Ok but how many people play at the level where sub-second perfect build queue matter?The optimal way to play exists, in fact in any competitive scenario optimal is generally synonymous with victorious, not just for RTS, but the vast VAST majority of matches and players do not operate at that skill level.Writing off everything in favour of the hypothetical top percentile is reductive to the point of being destructive.
>>724181460It was Murdered.
>>724206009>>724205578>RTS enjoyer explains things using basic logic>anti-comp retard just parrots "n-n-nuh uh"EverySingleTime
>>724206284It doesn't matter whether there's an optimal way to reach a milestone when reaching any given milestone optimally to the exclusion of all else is bad play.
>>724208031>when reaching any given milestone optimally to the exclusion of all else is bad play.As it is in most RTS games, but you probably complain about "being rushed" too.
>>724208542No. You don't understand and you never will understand because you keep playing bad games.
>>724208805Recommend me a good RTS then.
>>724208836Beyond All Reason
>>724208857on it
>>724201216>every gun is artillery>every artillery is a mortarStop being underage
>>724197740This. None of the rts/fps hybrids that have been tried are any fucking good because you cannot make a compelling rts game that lets people that have to play as the peons have any fucking autonomy. Imagine trying to play an rts game where your soldiers and workers didn't fuckign follow orders you issue to themAbsolute aids. At the same time, you can't let individual players be too powerful otherwise they invalidate any strategy the "commander" of the opposing team might be doing.Natural selection 2 for example suffered massively from this issue, and usually games were either one team curbstomping the other or both teams just dicking around until one won trough just attrition of the other team losing players due to getting bored etc. It was really rare for there to be two competent and evenly matched teams in the same match.
>>724208935Good luck. 3 mex, 2 wind or 2 solar on low wind maps, 1 kbot or vehicle factory, 1 scout, 1 con, use comm to build 2 more wind or 1 more solar.
>>724181460Retarded people entering gaming. Giving non whites and non asians access to the internet was a huge fucking mistake.
>>724181460microtransactions
>>724181460>single playermaking comp not be predictably ass or a cheating bastard is hard.if you make a campaign its fun once.>multiplayerExtremely hostile to new players and anyone not in the top %. meta strategies are never actually interesting to play or go against.
>>724206848Depending on the game, a lot. You see people doing that shit in silver in SC2 because surprise surprise it's the easiest way to improve.
>>724205250Graviteam TacticsAlso has realistic ranges
>>724208031>achieving the objective I choose for myself most efficiently is badWell if achieving your objective in an optimal manner is ackshually bad then you are ackshually a mongoloidal fucking retard and chose your objective poorly.
>>724197740Battlezone 1 & 2 were super cool actually. Pathfinding is pretty bad but they are very old games at this point. Getting more FPS/RTS hybrids like those would be awesome.
Specialization into what's now considered other genres pulled people away from the more jack of all trades/generic RTS genre.If you like pretty buildan then there's a slew of city/colony builders now.Like fights and fights only? RTT and autobattlers got you covered.Like the gather - growth cycle? factorio.This isn't a failure of the RTS genre, just more directed experiences for those looking.
>>724209826Or maybe achieving your objective in an optimal manner has little to do with anything resembling a build order. What do you think teching to T2 looks like in Beyond All Reason?
>>724205014>When I play RTS I constantly feel like "I know I should be doing this, but it's too difficult or time consuming right now and I'm busy doing this other more important thing"And the kicker is when you have that feeling, you might as well resign because you're playing a doomed round at that point.
>>724181460This game is more fun than 3d homeworld, we should have got kharak 2, not hw3
I fucking hated the bioball meta in SC2 way back in 2010 or whatever.Too fucking easy to play relative to how hard it was to counter.
>>724181460>What killed RTS?People simply get more intelligent each new generation. They simply stop using keyboard and mouse to play games, and instead move over to controllers.
ASSFAGGOTS and esports
>>724210885Assfaggots is a stupid name.Going on two sides was retarded then and would get called ELS shit now.Just call them by their actual name: dogshit.
these threads have gotten funny lately because it seems like half of the posters are swearing that multiplayer ruined rts and half are shilling their multiplayer only ta clone, but there's overlap between the two and they don't even realize how that's ironic.
>>724205143Ground control 1 and 2 have the best artillery in any game. you can't just go and post them like that.
>really like SC2 zerg>best way to improve your game in 99% of the cases is to better inject/creep/larvasadge
BAR is cool but all the units and maps are soulless
>>724210992Where's the irony? I hate sweaty as fuck APM fests and blame BW and SC2's hardcore fanbases for ruining RTS. What does that have to do with enjoying BAR, a game that's at worst a sweaty RTS that's not an APM fest?
>>724210992me when I invent scenarios in my head because I can't read.
>>724210053>achieving your objective in an optimal manner has little to do with anything resembling a build orderYour first milestone? No, it has literally everything to do with it unless the specific game does something extremely weird like randomizing your starting resources/buildings/units every match or something. Even if the map itself is randomized like on AoE for example, it's still going to give you certain resource nodes within some given range of your base so your starting plan will only vary very little due to that.>What do you think teching to T2 looks like in Beyond All Reason?No idea, I've never played that game
>>724199436post stupid bait, win stupid replies
>>7241814601) Infantilization of design2) Universe set in the future or in medieval fantasy, almost never in the present with real world factions or amalgamations close to them3) Increasingly less regard for story/singleplayer4) Grouping of units into squads5) Woke faggotry impeding companies from putting politically incorrect voice lines, cutscenes and themes that would make the game memorable6) Official company shilling for eSports faggotry7) Huge amplification of the scope of battle (e.g. Wargame Red Dragon, also some maps from Warhammer games)
>>724211175apm obsession is a spook. apm is just what happens when you're doing stuff. if you're doing a lot of stuff it goes up. if you're just watching the screen it goes down.
>>724211243>baitdo you think every gun is a mortar?
>>724208965How would you know which guns are artilleries and which aren't in the game you don't even play Starcraft
>>724211521Because the siege tank even in turret mode will have a maximum azimuth for its gun. The Big Bertha in Total Annihilation is a long range gun that does not have the capability to tilt far back enough to shoot behind terrainThere is a reason why different types of artillery exist and not every field gun can shoot behind terrain
>>724211238It’s something you can’t have a build order for, not in a real 1v1. It’s something you do when you have the resources pooled up and can avoid getting overrun before during and shortly after building.
>>724211310No it’s not and fuck you. You can play Supcom fine with 30 APM. You are permabronze with 30 in SC.
think about basically any rts ever made. say I want to build the most basic unit I can and attack my opponent with it. that's the most simple strategy you can do. is it a good strategy? that depends on the game. now at one end of the spectrum I attack as soon as I have my first unit. at the other end I wait until I have like 100 of them before attacking. which one will be more effective? that also depends on the game, but the answer is probably somewhere in between. now most rts games don't just let you spawn units at will for free. you have to pay for them with resources and spend time producing them. you can focus entirely on making your unit, or you can try to improve your economy and production so you can afford more units or make them faster. which option is better? again there's probably a balance where things work best. once you have this all figured out you can remember it so you can do it again in another game. now your simplest strategy possible has turned into a build order.tell me who is more retarded: the people who think this is problematic or the people who somehow play rts games and don't realize it's what everyone with multiple brain cells is doing?
>>724181830The other half still chilling with more sim-like RTS games like Factorio etc, so they won too
>>724211849that just means that either supreme commander doesn't have a lot to do, or that you only play supreme commander against players who don't do a lot.
Why are you niggers looking at the angle of fire picture from a realism standpoint and not what makes the game better one?The simple casts work better for SCs way faster pace and more binary bonuses. The actual game wouldn't benefit from simulated ballistics. The same way TA or SupCom would not benefit from it's simulated ballistics being replaced with SCs more streamlined Can unit shoot? then it hits system.Yeah it's not realistic, yeah it's retarded when you think about it like "how does this work?" but it contributes to the pace and flow that makes SC SC.
>>724212027Oh no, how dare a strategy game not be a click fest. You can always do more but the basics are the most important and Supcom makes them easy to do.
>>724188685based zk-fan
>>724181460this game was a spectacleshame that it was pretty barebones and they kept fucking with italso no keyrebinds
>>724212174you're the one getting angry at a number that has about as much meaning as a counter that tells you how many times you hit 'w' in a fps game.
>>724211990Now imagine it varies each match. You no longer have a build order.
>>724210098Nah, I get it when I'm winning too. Let's say I'm pushing the enemy and winning, while macroing at the same time and building more army. Let's say I fuck up and put a bunch of units in the wrong control group, order that group around somewhere and then realize those units are now split and not where I want them or whatever. Removing them from the group and then fixing shit and sending the units back to where they should be may feel like too much effort and I just continue reinforcing my push and just attacking with them anyway.Or let's say I'm attacking and winning still and I realize that I could and should be building up my economy at the same time because I have the resources to do it, but I'm not good enough and don't have the time to do it and keep my successful attack going too. Or maybe I just half-ass it. It happens a lot to me even if I win, of course my opponents are likely going to be of similar skill and will likely struggle with similar things as well, I'm not a top 1% player or something.>>724211665That just sounds like you're saying you can't have a build order because it happens too late in the match. Do you know what a build order is? A build order covers like the first few minutes of the match at most. Yeah no shit if it's something you usually do 30 minutes in, you don't plan it all beat by beat from second 0 of the match. If I play AoE I may not have a "build order" to go Imperial (at least not with most civs), but I sure as shit will have one to go Feudal no matter what civ I play.
>>724212369what varies? the units you can build? how much they cost? that hardly sounds fair and I can't think of a rts where it's the case.
>>724212319Because if the game requires a higher number it means I have to fight with a dogshit interface more just to fucking play.
>>724212434What’s actually effective to go for. Please just play a game that’s not made by Blizzard or Ensemble for once.
>>724212527>What’s actually effective to go forWhat does that even mean? Like the game adds extra RNG on top of the unit damage or health or what? One game your starting unit has 200HP, the next 400HP, the next your resource gathering is 500% faster, then in another match it's only 25% speed? How exactly does unit effectiveness change from one match to the next?
>>724212425>of course my opponents are likely going to be of similar skill and will likely struggle with similar things as well,people forget this, or they don't care because they only play rts games to feel masterful themselves. one of the first multiplayer matches I every played I was super worried about fucking up and thought I had made too many mistakes to win. I got my army to my opponent's base and he types "wait" in the chat. I asked if he had to go afk and told him to pause if he wanted. he replied "I'm not done building my base yet give me more time." I said "lol" and killed him. it made me realize that the people you're matched against are just as shit as you are.>>724212437you're using the same interface as your opponent and unless you have a disability you have the exact same ways to interact with it.>>724212527I didn't say effective, I said the most basic unit. in command and conquer that's a rifleman. in ta it's a peewee. in any of these games I can make this unit and attack with it. it might not be the best strategy, but it's a strategy, and you can make a build order to do it.
>>724182512>imageIt's like fighting games. There are people with decades of experience in a (now) niche genre with a playerbase split between many games. The people that want to actually play multiplayer RTS most likely know way more than you do already. Finding newbies is tough when you have no one to play against since most people would rather play vs AI.
>>724212425Here’s the key difference: what passes for a build order in BAR ends less than a minute in, is incredibly simple to the point where you could train a 75 IQ to do it perfectly in less than three tries, and then the game is wide open from that point on. The only thing that’s not negotiable is expanding for eco after. Even the way players expand differs and there’s no right answer.
>>724187694Personally I'm a big fan of fewer player count maps because it forces your team to think and adapt a little more than the samey>8v8 lane map>Fight your lane enemy until someone on your team or their team drops the ball and then you win because BAR eco structures are made of explodiumI've had some dope ass 3v3 games where people had to think outside of the box
>>724213028So what does this game do so differently, then? As far as I've seen it's basically a TA / SupCom clone and those certainly have build orders. How does it achieve this simplicity?
>>724213028I never played that game but it's supposed to be like ta so I assume there's something like big bertha in ta. I'm also going to assume that "just made big bertha and blow up your opponent from across the map" isn't a strategy you can do in less than a minute. so what exactly is happening in the first 60 seconds that's interrupting my fast big bertha strategy and why can't I make a build that counters it?
>>724213296No adjacency bonusesWay better unit and eco balance than TACon turrets as your primary source of build power instead of con spam or factories
>>724213546I don't see how that would remove build orders in any way
>>724213485The inability to sit on the amount of resources needed from that early without getting your ass kicked. Teching up is a situational choice that you can do very limited planning ahead for.
>>724213665If you don’t believe me watch high level 1v1 replays or listen to what those players will tell you.
>>724213790>See some fag trying to tech before he's ready for it>Bowl him over with a swarm of units>Reclaim his shit and tech up myself
Sign up for the playtest in steam, guys.
>>724213790>The inability to sit on the amount of resources needed from that early without getting your ass kicked.This isn't something unique in that game. You face the EXACT same dilemma when trying to age up in AoE, especially going Castle or Imperial, but even Feudal against the very most aggressive civs which can / will harass you super early. That doesn't mean the game doesn't have build orders, it just sounds like you're saying "you might be rushed, therefore build orders do not exist." You might get rushed in pretty much every RTS, that doesn't mean build orders don't exist.
>>724188994This
>>724194751Hell of a brapper
>>724194303Back when people had good user names
>>724189048pleasedontfloppleasedontflop
>>724214414Except aging up requires prerequisites you committed to beforehand. It’s not even about rushing it’s about how committing to a T2 rush will leave you vulnerable to normal non committed aggression. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how BAR flows.
>>724213790Dude teching up to end game isn't guaranteed in any competitive RTS no matter what your build order is going in. I'm noticing a trend with the anti starcraft crowd, they're completely retarded and don't know anything about RTS.
I did. I did it to spite you.
>>724214793T2 isn’t endgame.
>>724214847Teching to T2 isn't guaranteed either.
>>724213790ok so you're saying I need to secure resources while not dying. sounds like something a build order could help with.
>>724214939Nope. Your best bet is to win skirmishes and secure the reclaim fields. Build orders won’t help you there.
>>724215082if I want to win fights I'll need units. sounds like build order time.
>>724181460It just collapsed for whatever reason and the playerbase split off in two directions: some huddle around twenty-year-old games, some changed hobbies and picked up other stuff like city builders or grand strategy. Neither group needs or expects any new RTSes to be made.
>>724215082to win skirmishes you need money and units
>>724214732Having prerequisites to and resource requirements for going up a tech level is incredibly common anon, like it's been a while but I'm pretty sure even AoE2 had certain building requirements, at least for Castle / Imperial. This is like completely and entirely standard. You seem to think that if the opponent could possibly interfere with you at all, then build orders do not exist, which is entirely incorrect and frankly dumb. A build order is an optimal way to reach some sort of game state (tech level, army size, eco size, etc.), that doesn't mean the enemy will always let you do it, in fact large parts of certain matchups can be entirely about preventing the opponent's build order because you know that your faction can't stand up to his faction if you just let him run wild.
>>724215164Nope, because you’ll have already built your T1 factory.
>>724215082Nigger early fights in supcom/BAR/etc rely far more on a build order because there's so little micro. Whoever has more units, even one or two more, has a massive, massive advantage.Early fights in Starcraft or AoE are mostly determined by micro.
>>724211849>how dare a strategy game not be a click fest.In what way is a strategy game requiring less input from you a good thing? Why do you just dodge to complaining about "click fests" and "muh APM". Players doing things in games should produce results. It's not complicated.
>>724215347and you only build 1? what if you make 2? and you need resources for that. build order time.
>>724181460A few things, but mostly the fact that the genre's playerbase split up into numerous sub-genres of RTS focusing on one aspect or another. Traditional RTS couldn't sell anymore, and other kinds of video games through the console era brought in more money, so it fell by the wayside.
>>724181460Esports.
command and conquer 3 hit the perfect balance between starcraft 2s streamlined unit control and general mechanics and company of heroes tactical aspects with flanked units taking more damage and infantry taking cover etcIt's such a sadness they shit the bed with the expansion that just killed it outright
>>724211849>You can play Supcom fine with 30 APM. You are permabronze with 30 in SC.If you had to play Flash in Supcom you would never win again.
>quite literally zero (0) multiplayer-focused RTS games released between 2010-2020, as the genre died>endless horde of clueless retards blame the genre dying on games not having enough singleplayer focusWhat causes this delusion? It's so insanely consistent and yet so blatantly wrong.Yes, there is obviously Starcraft II but it's right at the edge of that timeframe and these retards normally pretend it succeeded because of singleplayer because it fits their narrative.
>>724181460lack of good gamesthere are many reasons for this but it can be reduced down to thatobviously the old games are still good, and occasionally a good game is made, but they're incredibly rare compared to other genreseven diehard rts fans will only ever mention like 5 game series in your average rts thread
>>724215304No that’s not my argument. My argument is that an immediate T2 rush is worthless because it fails against basic play so the optimal rush for T2 is worthless knowledge. The fucking AI will kill you before you can pull it off.The reason people don’t bother with build orders past minute 1 is because what works in BAR is so fluid and decoupled from the first minute that trying is wasting time.
>>724215539CNC3 is criminally underrated, mainly because of westwood psychofans shitting on anything done by EA at that time.
>>724211849>Bro why can't I play this game like a literal 90 year old and beat people who actually interact with the game quickly?Might as well bitch that you need autoaim because you're such a loser you can't put a crosshair on heads in an FPS game. Holy shit KYS.
>>724211849You can not play supcom just fine taking one action every two seconds.
>>724181460Wrist/finger pain, that's what.Those who liked the real time aspect moved to shooters and other sorts of real time action games.Those who liked the strategy aspect migrated to turn based strategy (eg. Paradox, Civ), or kept playing single player rts that's pausable, I guess.
>focus on multiplayer at the expense of everything else>lack of map editors and other tools for the players to actually expand upon the game>emphasis on console control schemes>investors bailing out after their next big korean thing sells ten copies
>>724215613It's literally the truth though, most people who played RTS never touched multiplayer. The multiplayer community is a fraction of the size of the actual playerbase, they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made.
>>724215478Then you fucked up bad. There’s situations for multiple t1 factories and it’s not something you build specifically for - it’s building closer to a front to push through or when your BP has scaled to the point where units leaving the factory is a bottleneck on production time.
>>724215637CNC fell by the wayside because it was a low-content singleplayer series so it couldn't build a lasting legacy.I don't even say this to fuel the singleplayer/multiplayer shitfight, even good and popular singular games that sell well like CNC 3 aren't going to stay relevant unless they have faux-infinite content or get new entries.
>>724215627sounds like you have to factor this "basic play" into your build order to rush T2you're talking like people never make military units while using their build order in other games, which is retarded
>>724215627so you're saying there's a stale metagame with one dominant opening. you know what would spice that up? better build orders.
>>724215723Why are you ignoring my point entirely to grandstand your own uninformed opinions?What multiplayer focused games killed the genre?
>>724211295>7) Huge amplification of the scope of battle (e.g. Wargame Red Dragon, also some maps from Warhammer games)That's a shit take, big scope is just a different flavor of RTS. TA had large scope and it's one of the pillars of this genre with successors coming out to this very day
>>724215746I'm trying to imagine a game where making multiple production buildings isn't a standard strategy and to be honest it sounds pretty fucking weird. your game sounds more and more lame the more I learn about it.
>>724215803>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made
>>724215796No.
>>724215678this is untrue.FaF, SC2 and the various versions of AoE2 are all still played today.RTS players didn't all just leave en-masse. Hell if anything RTS players are some of the lucky ones since they got what they wanted and it survived until today.Cod-fans that liked the the pre of MW1? lol lmao.Arena shooter fan? actually tragic.Vast majority of MMO's? not so massive.
>>724215627>is because what works in BAR is so fluid and decoupled from the first minute that trying is wasting time.No, it's because the game's economy is dead simple to facilitate scale. Not because it's some glorious dynamic game, unlike all those other RTS games where you never think on the fly.The "build order" in any RTS is just your opening play. A SC build order is just how many expansions/rax you're gonna go for. An AoE build order usually only lasts up to your initial choices in fuedal. Maybe a bit longer for fast castle (also a dumb greedy strategy but one you can get away with if unpunished, because it's a deeper game).
>>724215951What games had undue multiplayer focus leading to the genre dying, anon? If there's none, how can you say that multiplayer killed the genre? If singleplayer RTS are so much better and more successful, surely the various singleplayer focused RTS games in that period would have done well?I'm not engaging with your random strawman.
>>724215819There are exceptions, of course
>>724182282This was the true lifeblood of both StarCraft and WarCraft. Then Blizzard ditched lobby lists and actively dissuaded anyone from actually making custom maps for anything ever again.
>>724215627>My argument is that an immediate T2 rush is worthless because it fails against basic play so the optimal rush for T2 is worthless knowledgeOK but nobody other than you said anything about "T2 rush" and if "T2 rush" is not viable that doesn't mean other build orders which are viable do not exist.Also you seem to be under the impression that a build order implies you do not make any army at all, that is entirely false and many build orders do in fact involve building things you need to defend yourself from potential enemy aggression, because guess what - not dying immediately to the enemy sending 1 dude into your base is optimal, so if you're in a matchup where getting attacked is possible then that is taken into account. In fact you even have "build orders" that are entirely made FOR early aggression, like what is the optimal play to get units out and attack the quickest? That's also a build order.
>>724215897You build nano turrets to handle the building assist. They’re a lot more efficient and powerful than a second factory.
>>724215819>TA had large scope and it's one of the pillars of this genreTA is obscure and irrelevant. Supcom was what made it relevant and the TA fellation is largely retroactive.The Wargame series he's talking about had more impact than TA.
>>724181460slant eyes gobbling up blizzslop because the are autistic drone and like simple mathematic patterns in starcraftpeople who actually like RTS play BoR and FaF but there is nothing really to replace those games. WC3 gets a pass because its not a mathematic formula, its hero system means you can literally mix up anything you want and pull it off if you dont suck. which is why koreans hate WC3
>>724182282Anon, none of the people complaining about this shit actually played Starcraft.They're literally regurgitating shitposts from a decade ago and getting angry about the old starcraft general that used to shit up the board.
>>724216153>its hero system means you can literally mix up anything you want and pull it off if you dont suckYou have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
>>724216230Sorry you went drow first because you watched grubby and think you are some kind of wise grand master
>>724215975And how much of the game past the start do those openings determine again? How physically demanding are they and how much rote practice do they need to pull off?
>>724216126sounds like a build order
>>724216321>And how much of the game past the start do those openings determine again? Why should the early decisions in a strategy game not matter?>How physically demanding are they Why is playing the game- oh sorry I mean "being physically demanding" a bad thing?>and how much rote practice do they need to pull off?Why is a game rewarding you for learning and getting better a bad thing?Also what the fuck are you talking about? What RTS micro involves "rote practice"? Micro just comes from doing normal things faster and faster as you do them more.
>>724216027>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be made
>>724216458Restating your greentext more doesn't answer the question.You cannot point to any examples of multiplayer RTS failing or singleplayer RTS succeeding. You are just mad that people played multiplayer RTS because you're mentally disabled and can't do it yourself.
Nothing filters /v/ more than having to play against someone with even the tiniest amount of actual skill in multiplayer.
>>724216230Par for the course with Starcraft haters desu
>>724216530I'm filtered by the lack of people that wanted to play Dune: spice wars with me :(
>>724216458>they play it more, but playing the same games they bought twenty years ago does not feed money into the genre for new games to be madeThen why was Starcraft II massively successful?Why were then only strategy games to do well and build an actual series in that whole period shit like Wargame that were very multiplayer focused? Why were they selling new expansions for Age of Empires II to the multiplayer throughout the 2010's?Why can you not point to ANYTHING to back up your point, if you're so sure of it?
>>724216568Same, anon. It was so cool and I could just never get anyone to even try it.I'd offer to put a lobby up but I'm about to pass out.
>>724216517It does, you are just failing to read. Publishers became big towards the end of the 00s and they largely dictate what developers they're associated with work on. If you look at raw sales numbers, nearly any other genre outcompetes traditional RTS, and if you look at engagement, you see the same thing in addition to RTS multiplayer being dominated by games that already released. They didn't see money in it, so they stopped making games for the genre.Starcraft 2 worked because it was a slow burn game over a decade, both in terms of the singleplayer taking that long to tell the story and the MTX strategy and esports keeping the multiplayer going, but there was no room to compete with it. There's a whole bunch of smaller AA and indie RTS games that were made through those years that you don't even know exist because of that.
>>724182107W W drag
>>724181460>start mission>start to mine, make an epic army>win>next mission>no army, need to mine and build againBoring as fuck
>>724181460i've been thinking about how meta and build orders makes the game unfun, but then we have civ games where there are multiple win conditions and each of them going up against each other sort of makes every game more fun and uniqueso i guess some problems RTS' have is that>the game genre self-limits it because you can't have a cultural victory in SC2>all-ins and cheese were way too strong especially in HOTS>game length ranging from mere minutes to an hour only allows certain gameplay techniques
tempest rising is fun :)
>APM>gookclick>CTS>tryhardsWhy is /v/ so proud but so embarrassed of being bad at games? Just admit you are a scrub and play low ELO.
>>724216776I think a big problem is calling them "build orders" when it would be better to call them openers like in chess, the divergent paths as the game goes long are immense and often truthfully unmapped
>>724216768>*rmoid
>>724216772Why do you have to binge the game all at once?
>>724216673It's hamstrung but it's dogshit vs AI since you just can't do mindgames and backstab diplomacy with computers and that extra human factor elevated the game from just another 4x/RTS hybrid into something more, it's literally it's key defining feature and anyone pirating or demoing the game don't get it.In 4 player FFA three other humans can implicitly understand that the fourth going for a subversive victory like a corrino gov win is still a genuine threat that needs to be curbed immediately and can plan with each other to do something about it. The AI just sees an aggregate of all numbers it doesn't understand WHY things are happening. It's why it'll do insanely lucrative spice deals even though you're 2 shares away from a economic victory and all that money it just gave you ensures it lost.
>>724181460I still play aoe2, 1600 elo baby
>>724216721>If you look at raw sales numbers, nearly any other genre outcompetes traditional RTS, and if you look at engagement, you see the same thing in addition to RTS multiplayer being dominated by games that already released.Sure sounds like a nice big explination of how it wasn't fucking multiplayer that killed RTS, doesn't it? Just tacking on that "there were people playing the genre and buying the new multiplayer RTS games that came out" is not proof that it was all multiplayer's fault. Stop being a colossal fucking retard forcing your narrative as some sort of fact. You have literally nothing to back up your statements.>Starcraft 2 worked because it was a slow burn game over a decadeStarcraft 2 was a massive boom in the first few years of the decade, the first half at most. It was not a slow burn by any metric.>but there was no room to compete with itBecause... there just wasn't? Is that it? Everyone just looked at Starcraft II and decided "no, it's too much of a threat, we hate genres with established playerbases"?Publishers took over, devs moved on, and proper hardcore PC gaming in general died. Multiplayer RTS existing and triggering you with its fucking psychic powers or something was not the culprit. You have no evidence and no argument to even vaguely suggest that it is.>There's a whole bunch of smaller AA and indie RTS games that were made through those years that you don't even know exist because of that.I guarantee you I am more familiar with smaller-production RTS in the 2010's than you. Which is why I know that the successful examples were largely multiplayer focused. Sins of a Solar Empire did well with Rebellion (before the studio was nearly killed by the lawsuit, stalling the sequel for a decade). Wargame emerged and was the most multiplayer focused an RTS has ever been. Games that went singleplayer focused like Grey Goo or Deserts of Kharak on the otherhand did middling at best. People bought multiplayer RTS, not singleplayer.
>>724216440Because openers deciding the flow of the game and prioritizing execution at the same time is shit.Because I'm not interested in playing a physically demanding strategy game.Because a strategy game should not be about physical skill.
>>724216895it's too punishing if you don't follow them and the reason is because games are so short, literally every second counts and there's no rubber banding where the slower or weaker player doesn't get catch up mechanicsthat's what happens when you make a game competitive and esports ready - you make it unfun
>>724217142>Because a strategy game should not be about physical skill.Turn-Based Strategy is two doors down.
>>724217140>Sure sounds like a nice big explination of how it wasn't fucking multiplayer that killed RTSDawn of War 3, an RTS game with a focus on gaining a large multiplayer lobby DIED because of low player counts. Something that would not matter to a singleplayer crowd running through the game once and waiting for the next expansion.
>>724217190this nigga looking for fucking Mario Kart catchup mechanics in a fucking RTS holy goddamnplease just kill yourself and remain gatekept from my hobby
Why are they makin these threads over and over and over and over?Just go play them. Tempest Rising was released recently.
>games get stale and stop selling>endless shitty copycats of the same couple games people nostalgiawank>those games sell even worse>practically nobody tries new shit even to this day>LoL consumes anybody that wants micro gameplay>boomer nostalgia brands consume anybody that wants macro gameplay
>>724217275Nothing about real time strategy implies the real time should take precedence over strategy. It is NOT my fault Blizzard shit all over everything.
>>724217190The entire point of ranked systems is that you get to play with other players also bad at the meta. Besides, build orders are just a template which you have to back up with early aggression or defenses. There's a lot of playing the game in early game, I feel you just want to turtle up and tech then throw endgame units to the grinder.
>>724217142>Because openers deciding the flow of the game and prioritizing execution at the same time is shit.Early decisions need to matter. Early decisions not mattering is objectively shit, not "I don't like it because I die quicker when I'm outmatched :(" shit.>Because I'm not interested in playing a physically demanding strategy game.It's much more than not being interested. You're offended at the mere idea that people enjoy actually playing an RTS.>Because a strategy game should not be about physical skill.It's not "physical skill" to know what I want to do and implement it faster than you. No matter how much you bitch and moan about how it's just repetitive practice that just isn't true. Your opponents are thinking faster than you and doing things faster than you. The primary factor in APM is not physical speed, but your ability to constantly be doing *something*. To have your next action in mind, to have the presence of mind to manage every little thing in every little place. It is an intellectual ability, not a physical one, outside of the top 0.01% of players.
>>724181460Trying to hard to be E-Sports instead of delivering fun games that players of all skill levels can enjoy.
>>724217275>yfw turn based strategy is about physical skill too because evolution does not in fact stop at the neckWe can hem and haw over how by "physical" you just mean "muscular power" or whatever but tldr your mental is just another expression of your genetics
>>724192529it cut the boring and shitty parts
>>724217298Dawn of War 3 died because it was barely an RTS and took the approach the "muh APM" BARfags keep arguing for. It was openly attempting to be some sort of retarded moba hybrid that pleased nobody, and came out well after RTS had already died. Relic's previous game, Company of Heroes, did okay and was pretty split in singleplayer/multiplayer focus. Their next game, Age of Empire IV was heavily multiplayer focused and did better than any new RTS in a long while afaik.
>>724217332>Nothing about real time strategy implies the real time should take precedence over strategy.Well we're going on 40 years and we still haven't found a RTS where playing faster than your opponent doesn't increase win chance.
>>724217332Real time absolutely implies that being able to do things faster should reward you.
>>724192796>its all micro and macromacro is just micro with buildings. it's alllllll gook click.
>>724217358Not in the way you think they do.No, you're offended at the fact that I don't like your RTS and think they're terrible unfun slogs while you have no idea what the fuck the games I play are even like.It is absolutely physical skill and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>>724217462>why are there far more white people who have this lifelong title in an old white man's gamehmm, big mystery that one
>>724217301they exist. war3 has rubber banding where when you kill higher level heroes you get more xp from them and the player gets punished by needing to spend more resources to revive it.age of empires landmarks can be rebuilt for a fraction of the original pricein the new c&c's, can't you revive downed enemy mammoth tanks with engineers?
>>724217640Yeah almost like niggers would rather loot and steal than invent the wheel, or sails, or games, or anything really.
>>724181830What sickens me is that those MOBAs bring back multi tasking with heroes like Meepo and people RUN away from doing it.
>>724217462current world champ is a pajeet and there's like 10 other ones at the top
>>724217703Okay, does that dispute what was actually said though?
>>724217721history before the third world got into chess? yeah it does
>>724217626You've spent an entire thread arguing with like four different people about how any RTS an 80 year old alzheimers patient can't play is shit. They definitely infuriate you.>No, you're offended at the fact that I don't like your RTS and think they're terrible unfun slogs while you have no idea what the fuck the games I play are even like.I love FAF, I'm just not a blind retard that pretends that other RTS are bad. Nor one so shit that I don't realize economic efficiency is most of the game.>It is absolutely physical skill and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.No actual point, just a blanket rebuttal because you genuinely cannot understand what playing an RTS is actually like for someone with a three digit IQ.What about what I said was in any way wrong? How is it physical skill to have the presence of mind to do more things in more places at once?
>>724217559We have plenty where there are diminishing returns above a point.
>>724217739>Ummmm actually I found an exception, so the generality doesn't exist :)
>>724217703Pajeets are intelligent, they just have the world's most revolting dogshit nigger culture.
>>724199436MRSI is a baseline capability for a modern SPG, yes
>>724217770You think there is but there isn't. It's just the Koreans rightfully think your favorite RTS is garbage. If they all switched tomorrow your 30 apm would be pushed out of ranked.
>>724217786>nigger on /pol/ talking about generalized statements about groups>a board entirely built around racism drawn from individual anecdotes that proudly brags about "noticing" being their ideology's driver???
>>724217703Are you aware of how many people there are in India? Of course they'll have plenty outliers.
>>724217858>starts sperging about the demons that haunt his mind instead of responding to anything that was actually said???
>>724217839There are games with diminishing returns, but it does always still help.The Koreans would absolutely dominate FAF or BAR obviously, but it's because they actually know how to develop proper strategies and have far more awareness around timings etc.
>>724217883I wasn't the guy you responded to, I was only responding to the image.
>>724217898Pretty sure they wouldn't because they've had Koreans.
>>724217943Cool, I still don't want to hear about the /pol/ demons that live in your head rent free, brainlet.
>>724217332Momentum in military terms, because lets be real that's what speed/apm/"physical skill" in RTS games boils down to, is such a basic concept that people figured it out all the way back in grug times.Like you're not even complaining about a thing unique to RTS's you're complaining about a fundamental truth of conflict.
>>724217957The good Koreans are all in the game with the money, anon.
>>724211069the SC2 "macro mechanics" are one of history's most retarded design calls
>>724181460If you are making an RTS game today, you are competing for the attention of a niche fanbase against decades-old established titles and a robust modding scene. Only a well-designed and innovative game could make it in today's market.
>>724217967Imagine posting something of your own volition then getting mad that someone replied about it
>we will never get a proper sequel to homeworld 2 because the IP is in the hands of geartroonI fucking hate this gay and retarded earth
Halo Wars 1 was the best RTS i ever played.
>>724218185I'm so sorry
It still makes me sad to this day. I fucking loved RTS'The death of the genre is a bit complex though. Its essentially 2 audiences, hyper autistic APM e-sport types, and single player types. Even though its the same genre, both want a vastly different experience.Combine that with it being a niche genre, as well as a lack of innovation in fun enemy AI, most RTS games are kinda doomed to fall flat.At the end of the day it died because you could distill the experience the two separate audiences wanted into separate games, MOBAs for the APM people, and tower/horde defences for the chill single player people. Sucks but thats life
>>724218185how was your first RTS?
>>724187127>It wasn't market trends!>It's everyone knowing I suck at playing game after 200 hours of playing
>>724181460>click to recruit>click to move>click to upgrade>move around camera and repeatit's exhausting to play and not particularly interesting
>>724181460A focus on only the highest-end players with no innovation whatsoeverThe currently most talked about RTS, BAR, is literally just "Surpreme Commander again". There are no different game modes, no innovative features, the only thing it has going for it is leeching off IPs' popularity like Dawn of War with 40k.
>>724218279>click to aim>click to shoot>click to throw grenade>move around camera and repeatYou can reduce the complexity of any game like this
>>724218213>MOBAs for the APM peopleYou're correct otherwise, but come on anon.
>>724218279 moving your hand a few inches is exhausting.
>>724217957They make money streaming and nobody over there cares about beating foreigners in baby RTS. Most of them leave the game if they get a foreigner in starcraft because they lag and suck.
>>724218129Imagine conjuring fanfiction nobody asked to read and getting mad when nobody wants to read it.
>>724217752Most of it. The only thing you're not wrong about is that SupCom is primarily an economic game. That doesn't mean it's a build order game on the order of Starcraft or AoE, and especially doesn't mean BAR is because BAR is even LESS strict than SupCom. It also doesn't mean APM isn't a factor of physical skill. The fuck kind of APM do you think someone will have if you break their wrist?
>>724218279Fuck I hate moving the camera. Personally I only play games with no camera control.
>>724218330Bar and Zero-K aren't made to innovate, they are meant to be refinement of the formula that SupCom itself worked on from TA.
>>724188685we're so fucking underpopulated I keep matching up with the same 5 people in 1v1s
>>724218279>it's exhausting to play and not particularly interestingFound the adhd fatass
>>724218431Not having crippling arthritis or a broken wrist doesn't make the skill a physical one. The skill comes from your mental ability, not your physical control of an object. Perfectly average mouse control can still give you high APM.
BAR just feels so soulless compared to Supcom.
>>724218518Yes it does. Source: 150 APM down to 50.
>>724218439the main problem about rts is that you're handling dozens of different units, buildings and camera points at the same time. mobas are so much more popular because they're simpler to keep track of, you can also see the very low popularity of heroes like meepo where you need to micromanage multiple units.
>>724218459And that's what killed RTS
>>724218558So true sister, where are my big stompy mechs that instantly win the game for me? Where's the Monkeylord at??? Aiiiieeee
>>724218573>It is not a physical skill because it only requires a normal, functional hand, not particular skill with that hand above or beyond normalBreaking your hand doesn't invalidate that
>>724183237Then why 2000-2007 was so chock-full of RTS?Because PC market was allowed to have the focusThe same reason why combat jet simulators were popular and you could go into a gaming shop and see glass display cabinets with joysticks
>>724218653Yeah and mobas are fucking boring and suck
>>724218518>Perfectly average mouse control can still give you high APM.Yeah as long as your other hand has high apm on the keyboard.
>>724218819Yes, but with modern grid layouts that's not hard.
>>724218739Yeah it does.
>>724218764>Then why 2000-2007 was so chock-full of RTS?they weren't though.warcraft 3 was huge, but guess what, everybody was playing tower defenses and fucking dota. not RTS.
>>724218653I think it's more to do with the presentation of information than a straight up lack of it.MOBAs are still reasonably complex when it comes to keeping track of items their synergies and counters of which there are lot that are unique for each hero and are pretty much universally more branching than the upgrade paths and counters in traditional RTS games.The difference is that mentally RTS games require you to keep track of many different discrete things at once while in MOBAS everything and I mean everything maps out from the heroes. This is far less mentally taxing and far easier to categorize, and therefore way easier for people who suffer from crippling analysis paralysis to get into.Hell analysis paralysis is probably the real killer of the RTS genre and it's just my gay retard nigger anecdote but people freeze up way more in vidya now than they used to.
>>724218737Yes, having flavor to the factions and big meme experimental units were core to Supcom's identity. Cope.
Bros, ASL (Brood War) finals starting now in case anyone here cares.
>>724218862I'd have to see a video.
>>724218952>implying BAR doesn't have this*Behemoths down ur lane*Cope *rmoid
>>724207461Don't laugh at them, they are autistic
>>724218940I could list at least 100 titles from that era that I played myself but you will just>not AAA>didn't hear about them lol
Why the fuck you secondary newniggers even care about rts? Trying to fit in
>game starts>hit TC hotkey>hit queue vill hotkey>select two vills>build house>select other vill>build house>select scout>move it out>give it control group 1>select sheep>move it in>select other sheep>shift-queue scouting patterns>select vills>shift queue sheep>hit select TC again>drop gather point on sheep>queue up vills with the rest of my foodThe very concept of this few seconds of gameplay literally destroys the brain of the average /v/edditor that complains about RTS.
>>724219398You have described shit gameplay that is in no way what I want out of an RTS.
>>724183431>>724202458>matchmaking badHow are you gonna find players on your skill level then?>inb4 hosted lobbiesNo because you get kicked from the lobby as soon as your ELO is 1 higher than theirs
>>724219473Cope
>>724219332>not AAA>>724219332>I could list at least 100 titles from that era that I played myselfso what? there's hundreds of rts games still coming out these days. nobody plays them. i spent most of my time in warcraft 3 playing anything but warcraft 3. writing's been on the wall for rts games for a long time.
>>724219480>How are you gonna find players on your skill level then?Lobbies. Especially keeping the focus around larger and more vibrant games than strict 1v1.>No because you get kicked from the lobby as soon as your ELO is 1 higher than theirsWorks on my machine.
>>724219541warcraft 3 is a cherry pick
>>724181460it's *clap* fags *clap* like *clap* you *clap*
>>724181460Cuz that desert game was shit.
>>724219610it's not a cherry pick when it's by far the most popular rts of the early 2000s, and it wasn't popular because of the rts part.
>>724219524It's not cope. You described awful gameplay that's exactly the problem.
>>724219728It wasn't popular because it went away from the RTS fantasy which is controlling large scale battles. It went to tiny armies and slow battles about hitting abilities and heroes. Good foundation for UMS but not 1v1.The game right after that (SC2) went back to what people love about RTS and 1v1 was a huge success and outsold WC3.
>>724219852>starcraft 2 popular because of its 1v1lmaoit sold well because it's blizzard and had a decent campaign, with heroes too. i'll remind you that at that point pc gaming was absolutely booming and selling 3 million in 2000 is completely different to 2010.
>>724220078and starcraft 1 sold 11 million
Even though it looks far from perfect DoW4 is sadly the first RTS game I'm interested in playing in ages.
>>724198010That'd be true if I was doing it to other friends in my social circle.Random retards on the internet hardly counts as "talking behind someones back". It's healthy to vent frustrations in a safe environment.The shitty friend is the insecure one that assumes you can't come up with things on your own and instantly accuses you of looking up guides.
>>724181460The pursuit of greater profits.
>>724220118starcraft 1 is a different story because korea and net cafes
>>724181583shit taste in games shit taste in plastic womenshit taste in music
>>724217190This has nothing to do with the game being MADE competitive, the game IS competitive because both players are given an even playing field and the same mechanics, plus most critically they are given the same amount of time.
>>724217332>implies the real time should take precedence over strategyWanna know the truth? It doesn't, but you're probably so bad at the game you don't even understand the "strategy" part at all.
