so who the fuck is the villain and who is keeping the nighmare going? it seems like a combination of kos, her kid, the wet nurse, gehrman, and the moon presence. it says nightmare slain when you kill the moon presence but kos cursed some shit too because lawrence and wilhelm and their thugs raped the village and her corpse. how much iq do you need to understand this shit?
you're the villain
the dolls pubic hairs
>how much iq do you need to understand this shit?Shit's fucked, time to hunt
>>724294619Mergo was born as a half great-one / demigod and he kept crying loudly, which attracted real great ones, who heard him interdimensionally (and who come because they all lose their children somehow, then want a surrogate). Mensis was like a society of mad Yharnam cultists embracing this power to attract new great ones and worship them.The whole point of the game is making Mergo shut up; basically infanticide. I guess this really is for the greater good considering how fucked up Yharnam is on its current status quo. I think the Moon Presence is there to manipulate the whole situation, not just because of the crying
>>724294619I'll try to boil this down.The basic premise of Bloodborne, is people attempting to reach higher levels of reality via dreams. To oversimplify, think of reality as layers. When you dream, you temporarily visit a layer of reality one level above your own, so can interact with beings of that higher level. Those higher beings can ALSO dream, and you can ladder dreams upwards forever, basically, or at least in theory. As you ascend layers, things become more and more powerful. Not like, dragonball Z power, but, reality becomes more and more compliant to your whims. There are three main human factions active in Bloodborne, each of which can be considered "villains". The Hunters, The Healing Church, and the School of Mensis.The School of Mensis is the more straightforward. They want to create an artificial, controlled Great One, a being from a higher layer of reality, to freely ascend to that level. They found a brain of an old one in the chalice dungeons (sorta), and are trying to produce a vessel for it. The Healing Church and Hunters are interconnected a bit, and share a lot in common, and the lines get a bit blurry. But broadly, The Healing Church made contact with a bastard Great One, Ebriatas. Through some means, they were able to make diplomatic advancements with it, and got it to agree to let them take its blood, which has powerful restorative properties to humans (and other side effects). The Hunters, on the other hand, made contact with, and found/killed the Great One, Kos, and defiled her corpse. Great Ones are somewhat immortal, so it didn't really "die", so much as enter slumber, plagued by nightmares of what the Hunters did. This nightmare is now where the Hunters, well, hunt. They hunt others who have partaken in blood, or are otherwise trying to ascend. On paper, because humans exposed to the horrors of the universe begin turning into beasts. In reality, because most of the hunters were sociopaths looking for an excuse to hunt men.
If I had to guess I think your character is actually dead the entire time and this dream like state is their purgatory. Hence why the start of the game is you waking up to that guy, Oedon working on you with the blood, And Oedon is more like your characters subconscious trying to help break the character from the dream. Hence why Oedon is so enigmatic but turns out it seems your characters reality is a dream within a dream at infinitum hence all the other worlds can be seen at that hunters dream area. I haven't played it in a very long time so I forget a lot of things. But honestly that's just what it looks like to me probably nothing official.
>>724296035that guy's not Oeden, that's just some random Yhanamite guy who administers transfusions. Oeden is a god
>>724294619The School of Mensis are the villains
>>724295819my man
>>724295964NowGreat Ones have some weird rules and tendencies to them that mostly boil down to, most of the time they have little more than passing interest in humans, no more than you would a passing cricket. Maybe it's a boring night so you stare at it a bit, but you don't actually care all that much. Except, Great Ones are, for whatever reason, extremely prone to lose their offspring, and eagerly seek surrogates to fill that hole. So every so often, you get Great Ones that "adopt" a person or people. But, they will always lose their child. They also will occasionally try and make new children with humans, often to some sort of failure. They will always lose their child, and when they don't, bizarre things happen. A long, long fucking time ago, Old Yharnam found a Great One, that impregnated one of theirs, Lady Yharnam. Tragedy befell as it must, but her baby, Mergo, actually survived. It cries for its mother and father, but because it is a higher being, these cries resonate into higher levels of existence. Great ones hear this, and are attracted to it. They want a surrogate, and an actual, infant Great One crying for a parent, is the mother of all honey traps.Enter Rom.Rom is a bit of a strange case, a human by all accounts, that was actually capable of visiting a higher level of reality by default. But also a bit of a retard. Naturally, she was a person of extreme interest to Mensis, who tried to use her for their ends. Rom, however, noticed Mergo, and the shitstorm that was on its way, and like Fry from Futurama, used her specially retarded brain to dream, except instead of going to a new layer of reality, made a "bubble" of sorts. Dreaming of herself dreaming, dreaming of a lower level, a sort of weird, negative envelope of dreamspace.This kinda threw a sheet over Yharnam, as far as attracting Great Ones. They could hear the crying, but not really where it was, delaying the bad shit, but also making the whole "humans turn into beasts" thing worse"
>>724296106ThisOdeon is just a Great One. Hard to say if they were attracted by Mergo, or had a pre-existing interest in the funny ant farm down here.He is who impregnates that one lady. The one who has the weird little abomination in the basement of the chapel, for one of your third umbilical cords.
>>724294619>so who the fuck is the villain and who is keeping the nighmare going?The School of Mensis created the current crisis your character finds himself in.The Moon Presence was around since before, but they're the ones who summoned her.
FROM plots never make it through development but BB knocks off a lot of books so it still makes sense. Basically, in true cosmic horror fashion, the next culprit is revealed and encompasses the last. In the main game, the church sells this old blood. Then entire city of yarnahm is built on it, and the church deploys hunters to kill beasts when necessary.Then you find out that the church is an off shoot of Bygenwerth. They discovered the blood, runes, the tombs, and they vivisected the Orphan of Kos. But they didnt imbibe blood, they lined their brains with eyes to ascend "naturally". Then you find out that a heretical sect in the church isnt just studying blood or whatever, but trying all sorts of crazy shit. They are calling down the moon presence with the cries of Mergo so that they can commune with it. The presence of the moon is accelerating the beasthood. Then I think its the moon presence fault because it orchestrates these cycles of the hunt. Maybe it benefits from the blood you give it.The hunters nightmare was created as a hell for the bygenwerth hunters, and all hunters who become drunk with blood. Thats why you need an eye of a blood drunk hunter to enter, and why so many hunters cover their eyes. So its the Healing Churchs fault for the hunt, but its ultimately Micolash' fault for making it MUCH worse. Then its the moon presence fault for orchestrating it. But really, its just Micolash' fault.
>>724296636did wilhelm ever find out about rom? to find out out some retard gets by default what you dedicate your life to. lmao
>>724296636As for the Moon Presence, this is a Great One that German came into contact with at some point, after the whole Kos thing went down. The exact nature of their relationship and deal is unclear, but German got an extra layer of reality higher, for Hunters to be able to retreat to, to gain a sort of immortality out of it. In exchange, however, the hunts could never end. German saw this as a win-win, and thus the Hunter's Nightmare came to be. Hunters actually DESCEND a layer of reality to hunt, now, not ascend, though they can still ascend other layers once descended into the "main" dream layer of humanity. Whatever the Moon Presence gets out of the deal is unclear. Could be entertainment. Could be the blood. Could be the raging old man boner German gets when hunters kill something. Hard to say. By consuming Third Umbilical Cords (note: these are not One Third of an Umbilical Cord, they are a distinct thing called Third Umbilical Cords, that's just how it is), the remains of a Great One sired pregnancy, you essentially get the, for lack of a better analogy, you get the "royal jelly", that goes into nominally human-ish progeny that makes them a higher being. Without those, you are a cricket, wholly unable to fight the one gazing at you. With them you are a three foot long cricket with a gun. Odds are stacked against you, but you can actually stand in an arena with them. Between that Great One juice, and who knows what was recovered from the Moon Presence's corpse, is enough to actually achieve the stated goal of Mensis, creating a new Great One, you. But, of course, you're not a domesticated Great One, you have the doll, who has some level of the guilt the real Maria has for killing Kos. So, you're probably gonna be groomed into a replacement, as much as a higher being can be groomed.
>>724296636I think the reason why the children always die is because they are what we'd call Gods, and are their own sort of platonic spheres. Theres no room in the universe for two of them since theyre the exact same thing, since they are all of what they are. Thats why the only two we see survive at all are Mergo and Kos, and their mothers actually die before they were born. And then there's the moon presence, who you kill before becoming.
>>724297276wasnt gehrman just the moon presences surrogate?
>>724294619>Moon Presence is the main Cosmic villain because it's keeping you hostage to kill other Great Ones>the Healing Church/Byrgenwerth/School of Mensis are the main human villains because they're using Great One shit to try and ascend to higher planes of consciousness and reality through dreams n shit but are also injecting everyone with Great One blood which turns them into beasts>Kos or some say Kosm and the Orphan of Kos or some say Orphan of Kosm are the villains of the DLC because the hunters who massacred the shit out of Kos/Kosm and the fishing village that Kos/Kosm washed up at that got infected by Kos parasites are all cursed by Kos/Kosm and the orphan thereof so you have to kill the orphanm to break the curse, although the Healing Church is also using this Curse Nightmare as a black site to imprison, torture and experiment on people to do more reality insight shenannigans so they're the villains here too
>>724297062I believe so, yes.Wilhelm had his finger in just about every pie in the game, and directs you to her at Bergynworth, much as you probably didn't need the hint.And you're a Hunter, he knew exactly what was going to happen when you found her, and was counting on it.Pretty much everyone was pissed about Rom, but there kinda wasn't anything you could do about it. You need a higher being to ascend, normally, and Rom effectively cut the "bubble" off from regular interaction with those higher beings that weren't already in the loop, like Odeon and the Moon Presence. And yes, I can only imagine the psychic agony experienced by people who had worked their entire lives to ascend layers of reality, being told a truly gifted human capable of doing it naturally was coming, getting hyped up over what kind of genius this was going to be, and getting smacked in the face when it's some barely verbal, more autistic than savant type. And then being cock blocked by her with nothing they could do about it until a murderhobo dealt with it.
>>724297454Probably.It's definitely a logical assumption. There's just nothing to really say for sure, and since the Hunter's Nightmare is kinda more curse than blessing, but German is exactly the sort of person to say "perfect" to it, it kinda muddies the sort of usual "intent" readings you could do here.
>>724297413I'd think and agree with something similar.My baseless theory, is that there's a set number of Great Ones that can be. For a new Great One to exist, an existing one must die. You can ascend as one, because the Moon Presence has died.Kos left an orphan behind that should have died, because Kos themselves died.Mergo is the outlier to this hypothesis I don't have an answer for, though. Besides a weak "some Great One died somewhere", there's not the same death & birth balancing there, as far as I know, unless we make some bold claims about the Brain of Mensis.
>>724297276One more point, that may matter to the plot, or may not. It's cut content, so whether it was intended but cut due to restraints, or cut because it was no longer intended is up for debate, but originally, a more direct comparison was made between the Moon Presence, and The Old One from Demon's Souls, down to the great mud swamp.If this IS the case, then there is the additional layer of all the Great Ones are actually ALL asleep, all the time, and any of them actually waking up could cause utter devastation to everything, on all layers of reality, and everything done in the name of ascending is actually pushing this eventuality closer. This interpretation runs into some of the vagueness of Demon's Souls, though, and again, may well have been cut because they didn't want the association.
>>724298127OhActually One last point, but it isn't really a point, so much as the dismissal of one, that I think is weird. The "vilebloods". Cairnhurst. The fucking vampires.Yeah, those have no relation to any of this. There just already were fucking vampires in this world before any of this shit went down. Maria was a vampire, and was clearly comfortable with being one, and Cairnhurst gribblies were happily gorging on the literal bloodbath that was Old Yharnam. Maybe there's a Great One connection somewhere, I know countess whatshername used some Ebriatas juju to reform after being splattered but that could just be a vampire getting that GOOD sip.But yeah.Fucking vampires are just real in this world, not tied to anything else happening except that a few of the people involved happen to be vampires. And another closing note. Darkbeasts. Paarl. When the beasts start getting boney and electric. This is also just a thing that fucking happens? Like, you need some Great One exposure and fucky shit to get the ball rolling on the whole "people turn into beasts" thing in the first place, but the subsequent transformation into a Darkbeast is an entirely natural process that occurs when bestial humans get TOO much exposure to Great Ones and their envoys, as a self defense mechanism, like a fucking hog going feral, or a grasshopper deciding to become a locust.
>>724298127>more direct comparison was made between the Moon Presence, and The Old One from Demon's SoulsIt's a shame they took this out. BB is a great sequel to DeS and only adds to the lore. Plus it would have allowed another sequel in an entirely different setting/timeline. Imagine finding some DeS relics in the chalice dungeons, like sections of the underground temple or the chasm.
>>724298806I agree.It's why I mention it, I really like it, and think it fits. It even kinda works with Kos not really... "dying", so much as being sent into a different kind of sleep, as is, no further edits or changes required. I have my complaints about them sure enough too, but on the whole, I prefer the "layered reality" setting of Demon's and BB, to Dark Souls' cyclical ages thing, and whatever the fuck Elden Ring is smoking. I like the vibe, and it actually works well with the sort of logically inconsistent and surreal nature of Fromsoft's stories, rather than trying to explain invasions and weird bosses as time travel or whatever the fuck the consensus is nowadays.
>>724299160>"it was all a dream"But it actually works.
>>724299160>rather than trying to explain invasions and weird bosses as time travelErm it isnt "time travel", time just became convoluted
>>724297276Bit of a conspiracy theory but I'm not actually convinced the Moon Presence we fought is the real thing. I think it's essentially just a very large version of the messenger creatures that was intended to fulfil the conditions to be a hunt worthy of ascension. My assumption as to the identity of the Presence is that it's actually the Doll. The messengers clearly worship her and she has a maternal-esque view of them. She tends to Gherman constantly in a similarly maternal and caring fashion. She looks on hunters as though they're hers to care for and protect. Then finally when you slay the so-called Presence, she tends to you like you're her own child. The Hunter's Dream is remarkably stable after the death of the 'Presence', and everything very much feels like it was laid out for you to achieve this state. Add in that cut-content files refer to the Presence as 'Flora', a female name, and I think that adds to it. The main point against it is that the Doll has a clear spiritual connection to Maria, but never the less I stand by my take. I think it fulfils the constant 'Old Ones want a Child' theme if you effectively got jebaited into being hers.
>>724299975>as 'Flora', a female nameI think by flora they meant in the taxonomical sense.>Flora ( pl. : floras or florae) is all the plant life present in a particular region or time, generally the naturally occurring (indigenous) native plants.>not actually convinced the Moon Presence we fought is the real thingThere's the other Moon Presence in the Chalice Dungeons too, the cut content one. I imagine it was supposed to be the OG and the one we fight is an image/dream.>Presence is that it's actually the DollI think that was German's deal with the MP. He wanted Maria back, so the MP gave him The Doll as a surrogate daughter (see what I did there?). She's not real, but she's real enough.
>>724299226YesBecause there's a distinct difference between "This was all a dream you were having"And"This is a dream someone else is having". The first makes you think everything is irrelevant. The second makes you experience a moment of genuine awe when you realize it, and forces a level of acceptance of something else besides you & your dude's superiority, which is otherwise a hard thing to find in a game.
>>724299975>The main point against it is that the Doll has a clear spiritual connection to Maria, but never the less I stand by my take.I don't think this is necessarily contradictory. Maria clearly is wracked with guilt over what they did to Kos, it's really not a stretch to assume she'd swing hard the other way to atone, having seen the consequences. Mental copy or otherwise. I hadn't thought of this before, but I actually really like it, especially because it actually makes sense out of the Messengers, who are otherwise JUST a weird gameplay mechanic, and marketable goober.
>>724294619You can't kill a Great One, you're just sending them to the tombs of the gods. That's why you can find most of them down there too, or maybe that's just where their real bodies are?
>>724299226It's not time travel, it's just reality merging together, like in DS3. We know now that the 4th dimension is time/space, and it's sorta like infinite 3rd dimensions stacked together on all directions. That's how invasions / co-op / summons "worked" in DS/ER. It's just souls or players crossing to another dimensions to help out etc. Imagine the Matrix movie where Neo met the Architect in that room full of TVs. There's like infinite realities or dimension stacked on top and over each other, all existing at the same time. Imagine being able to cross dimensions and meet another Neo at will etc.This is what I like about Fromsoft, even the smallest mechanics like the Bonfire/Grace are tied to some universal lore, giving it actual substance. It's not just some "video gamey" mechanic.This is even more apparent in Sekiro. Those Idols, they aren't simply video-gamey "checkpoints". This is where Sekiro goes to rest, and meditate, to go inside his broken memories, to reflect into the past. Remember, that he has severe amnesia, his mind is fractured, from the fallen burning pillar hitting his head. They even make another lore referencing to thst ashen scar, like when Emma examining his face, and saying it's like a side-effect from the Kuro's blood, ehich, Kuro did give them the blood at that moment.Lore accurate Sekiro, only traversed the whole game ONCE, cleared each place ONCE. (Not including the backtracking, but you get the idea). Lore accurate, peak, unbroken Sekiro is that good. The present game occured in like within 24 hours.
>>724300765So, when you die, when I die, when all the audiences died x9000 times playing the game.. and had to backtrack each stage, clear each map for items and equips, died to boss a million times..think of all this infinite events as part of Sekiro's fractured mind, broken memories. That's how meta it is.In reality, Sekiro did everything in one fell swoop. He 'activated' each idols only once. And progressed to next map after. The "Idols" aren't 'teleporters" in a video-game sense. It's just a place for Sekiro to rest and meditate, and reflect on his (broken) memories. That means there was no 'Dragon' in a realistic, physical sense. He was just meditating on thst tomb site in that cave. That boss fight was just only spiritual. He gets the Tear from within that watery well fountain in that cave, not from cutting the Dragon's tear duct. That's why there's such a conflicting information, disparity between what's real or not, regarding what happened in the Hirata estate. Was he fighting Lady Butterfly, or Owl Father? Or was he reminiscing his old days being trained by the Lady, or was it back to back fighting, him fighting the Owl after resurrecting? IMHO, he didn't fight the Owl in Hirata. He actually fought the Owl on top of that Pagoda. That's where he gets the Sakura blossom twig. The Hirata part is just shows how fracutred his mind and broken memories were, even hinted by crow NPC/enemy at the beginning of that estate.So you could also assume that whenever you're 'teleporting' though the Bonfire/Grace/Idol in these games, really the game just skips the journey part. Your Player Character actually traversed the entire route. Think of like ordering the cab in GTA. You can sit through the whol journey or just skip straight to the destination.
>>724299975I think the Doll is Maria's 'dream-self' while she is sleeping in the Hunter's Nightmare. Her consciousness ascended (or maybe descended?) to the Hunter's Nightmare upon her death, and similar to Rom dreaming of a dream, when she sleeps there transfers her consciousness to the Hunter's Dream in the form of the Doll.I think 'Flora of the Moon' refers to the flowers that are scattered around the Hunter's Dream. It is heavily speculated that spore-like forms of Kin descend from the moon in moonbeams to enter people's brains through their eyes. These flowers look like eyes when viewed from above, and the Kin enter into them, mistaking them for human eyes.
>>724300814My question is, regarding the lore accurate Sekiro, and the subtitle of the game. He really died only Twice, didn't he? Once from unsheathing the Mortal Blade, perhaps if you survived that ordeal, you become worthy of it, and it won't kill you anymore. So what was the other One death? Is it when Owl Father supposedly backstabbed you, or was it from the fallen pillar on his head? Or at the ending, if you choose to sacrifice yourself (which I think is the Canon ending).
>>724299226Ok, explain one thing Are there not sleeping people? Or everyone is asleep? What about the dudes who have eyes in their brains, are they actually have eyes grown from brains or they are asleep and just dreaming about it?
>>724294619>how much iq do you need to understand this shit?You need to be granted eyes
>>724300884He died at Hirata State before Kuro gave him his blood.However, at the beginning when Wolf wakes up at the bottom of the well after Emma throws down the letter, a bunch of dust falls from him, as well as sakura petals which always form around him when he resurrects. This implies he was trapped down there for a long time, probably starving to death and resurrecting over and over. Obviously he could have just climbed out, as we do when we take control of him, but I think he was subjecting himself to suffering this death and rebirth willingly as a sort of penance for not protecting Kuro from being captured. Some of the guards you eavesdrop on at the beginning of the game are hesitant about Wolf in the well, but others are certain he has completely lost his will to live, probably aware of his shame and his self-induced punishment for it, and so trust that his sense of failure outweights his sense of duty. He is also at low health at the beginning of the game, so he was likely close to dying again before we control him and get the healing gourd.I guess I don't need to bring up how this draws many parallels to the Buddhist concept of life, suffering, death and rebirth.So Wolf has canonically died many times.
>>724294619Odeon the indicible rapist of women
>>724294619>who the fuck is the villainthe patriarchy
Oh Withering Rooms is neat too. You can tell the dev took a bunch of inspirations from Fromsoft games.
>>724301081So, this runs into a bit of the layered reality thing."Normally", a dreaming person is dreaming like you or me. We have our dreams, and never shall these dreams meet.When a Great One descends, it erodes that barrier between "you" and "me", because now the space is host to something using ALL of the space. I guess, maybe, if you think of plotting points on a graph, those points are never connected, never touch. Once you put a shape (great one) over those points, though, now every point in that shape is sharing the same "dream", because the "dream" is now just the reality of the Great One. The people with eyes in their heads, is mostly a sort of fukkin self-affirmation guru speak. Most of them, do not, in fact, have eyes on the inside, and even the idea that they should probably just comes from seeing Ebriatas and an Amygdala, which SORT OF have this. Vaguely analogous to a cargo cult, they're copying the Great Ones, without knowing what parts are important. It's not like Orphan of Kos had this (as far as can be told). Maybe it actually does matter, maybe it doesn't, that they believe it does is the important part either way, because most of them are just dreaming like a normal person anyways. At best, they're lucid dreamers, compared to the average person.The only exception might be Micolash. Micolash is just kinda built a little different. Not quite as different as Rom, but, a bit more than average. He ACTUALLY may have been able to will-to-power some extra eyes in his skull, after piggybacking into dreams, and being more directly in contact with the Brain of Mensis than anyone else. The Nightmare of Mensis is an extra layer of dream deep, that Micolash couldn't reach JUST by dreaming, so either he laddered (more likely) or ascended (possible but less likely). Either way, he's definitely a cut above everyone else.
Best thread on /v/ right now.Bloodborne was the only souls-game that made me care about its lore. It's actually fascinating stuff.Respect for the writers doing their own stuff, instead of using Cthulhu and the likes for the nth time.
>>724298742>And another closing note. DarkbeastsLore suggests Paarl is fucking ancient. There are also the Loran Silverbeasts, supposedly from an ancient past. Maybe beasts having electricity-power is just something they had in the past.
>>724300824Maybe the doll in the waking world was a mourning doll that gehrman later tried to bring back to life. Then he makes a deal with the moon presence to bring it to life and brings her to the dream with him? So the lifeless doll is our doll, but asleep. Sounds retarded but think about it. >the old hunters bone is clearly Marias, the Japanese description uses neutral gendering and she has pthumerian blood as a cainhurst noble. The pthumerian boss and the crow of cainhurst are the only others who do this trick, while the old hunters might have just imbibed pthumerian blood>there's a cut enemy that is a doll with a head full of gore>the finger of the doll in the waking world is twitching as if shes still alive but in disrepair or sleeping>the small hair ornament has a similar description to the dolls set, meaning it belonged to the doll and not Maria. Shes happy to receive it because its the pin she left in the waking world.Though it also makes a lot of sense that Maria and the doll can both sleep, so one could fall asleep and wake up as the other. Maybe between the one that is always sleeping?
>>724301306Yes he was in the well supposedly for 3 years since Hirata. But I don't think he died there. Perhaps it's more like in the begining of DS1, with the Chosen Undead slowly hollowing in that prison cell, not from death, probably just from stagnation and losing one's mind over lost purpose over time. Emma's letter gave Sekiro one last jolt of finding some purpose in life, and when he found Kuro he found his purpose back.If he died countless times in that well, we would've found out about the Rot sooner, like as soon as we're out exploring the game. We would've seen already sickly NPCs earlier than intended.I really think that what Shadows Die Twice means. Sekiro really died only twice. Else, the title doesn't make sense doesn't it.
>>724301306FukkinThat thingThe SMT demon from 3. Daisoujou? The thing where a monk attains true purity, by mummifying alive.This makes me think of that.
>>724301998>Shadows Die Twice meansIt could also be a general reference to the bad yucky icky immortality most things have, that resembles living after death more than actual immortality, until you kill them again. The first "death" was when they took the bad shit ass immortality in the first place.I think yours fits better, but, it isn't STRICTLY necessary for the title to make sense.
>>724301998That's also a fair way to read it, I guess. The sakura petals are the real giveaway that he died and resurrected at least once in that well. The dust also suggests he has been sitting still for a very long time.I also wouldn't put too much stock into the whole 'Shadows Die Twice' thing. The game could easily just be titled 'Sekiro', and they needed a snappy subtitle to tack onto it. It basically just communicates that dying and then getting the chance to die again is a core game mechanic.
>>724302125Yes,you are thinking of Sokishinbutsu. Buddhist monks that would enclose themselves in a small container and meditate for a long time, ingesting only nuts and tree bark to basically mummify themselves alive, attempting to skip death and going straight to nirvana. I don't know if that counts as a 'rejection' of the Buddha's teachings, but it's kind of reminiscent of the monks in Sekiro using the centipedes to achieve immortality instead of doing it the usual way, through meditation and reincarnation.
>>724301827One thing I never gotWhat the fuck happened to Logarius?I know he went to Cairnhurst to kill vampires. Why did he switch sides?Vampire hypnotism?Truke? Maybe he didn't switch at all, but just hates us independently for some reason?
>everyone else turns into a cool werewolf monster>you turn into thisHow do you respond without being mad?
>>724302520Rom turning into something completely different, I get. Rom is a weird fucking thing.But I also never got why Ludwig turned into a horse instead of a wolf. The fishing village going all fishmen seems like a different thing entirely, so I don't think they're included. But Ludwig, as far as I'm aware, just did ordinary blood ministration, and should have been a wolf. Yet he is a horse.
>>724302520turning into the rape horse from berserk is better than some faggy werewolf
>>724302417My take on it is that Logarius realized he couldn't kill Annalise, and the next best thing was basically just imprisoning her in her throne room, glamouring the entrance, and guarding it against anyone who might come.Our hunter defeats him, allowing access to Annalise again. Alfred can also go there and kill her, beating her into a mushy stain on the ground, but this doesn't truly kill her and she can be resurrected. Logarius must have been aware of this, and the next best thing was just locking her away from the world.The best way to handle a truly unkillable immortal vampire is bury them under concrete. Logarius only had his magic.
>>724302417My own interpretation is that he realized he could never truly kill her.Even when that mad-drunk cleric dudes whose name I forgot smashed her into a pulp, there were still some "alive" remains, allowing you to resurrect the queen of Cairnhust.So, he didn't want to acknowledge his failure, or maybe he didn't want the world to know that immortality is possible. So he just guards her like a secret.
>>724301998Yeah like Sieggy. He went hollow not from death, but from losing his purpose and hope. Your PC, the Chosen Undead keeps outdoing him, steps ahead in every way. It's kinda ironic in a messed up way. We know in DS3, there's like a couple of chosen Ashen Ones, other than your PC. Anri - Aldritch, Hawkwood - Abyss Watchers, Yhorm - Seigward, Ludleth was already on his Throne, I think Gundyr was supposed to beat Lothric, before you stepped in as replacement of sort. It's like Harry and Neville both being the Chisen Ones. Or in Morrowind, there's countless of other Nerevarine before you, awakened by Azura, that just so happens to stumble and fail at certain ibstacles, and your PC just so happened to triumph and climb over.So it's kinda fucked up. Your PC, the Chosen Undead, always helping Siegmeyer, is what made him go hollow. We just stepped over him like nothing lol.
>>724302202Yeah it could be too. Like the training dummy guy. Kill the actual body and the immortal parasite/leech too.
>>724302417They revile her very blood, and Logarius knows shes somewhat immortal, so he guards her body. Even when shes ground to a pulp, she still writhes around. So shes free to spread her cursed blood. We only bring her back by reversing time with the altar of despair. >>724302520The church hunters didnt hide their exploits. Ludwig probably rode a horse and fused with it. Thats why it has a missing head, too.
>>724302757>think Gundyr was supposed to beat Lothric, before you stepped in as replacement of sort.This is an entire cluster fuck.Okay.So.I dunno the exact reasoning, but, there was a great shuffling of characters that happened late in DS3's development. My best suspicion is this is tied to the removed area, the interior structure rhat would have connected roughly the place where you meat Yoel with the place you fight the Ashen Demon, which made an already designed boss homeless.Wolnir was supposed to be Jorm.Jorm was supposed to be Gundyr (and I believe was supposed to function more like the Persuer/Nemesis, and would hound you throughout the game Gundyr was supposed to be King Lothric (or whatever his name was). And he was most likely supposed to give you the means to make bonfires, a mechanic that was cut from the game (probably wisely, having seen Lords of the Fallen)Oceiros is most likely the displaced boss, and whatever character he was supposed to be is either just gone/replaced King Lothric, who is just gone. Best practical evidence for this, is the decor in the Profaned Capital, namely the massive piles of treasure, how weirdly long Jorm's room is, which makes no sense for Jorm, but lots for Wolnir, and the thematic consistency with the Profaned Flame, and Wolnir's predicament, versus Jorm who is just kind of a giant, with no real association with treasure, loot, or conquest. And Gundyr, who is the only other Pus of Man enemy in the game that isn't in or around Lothric Castle. And Wolnir, who is in a hastily cobbled together terrain object hallway floating somewhere behind Anor Londo. Basically, the narrative is kind of fucked around this point, and there's no real way to salvage it, without learning what the original narrative actually was.By all accounts, Aldrich and Sulyvahn's narrative survived pretty intact, so they're fair game.
>>724303063>>724302725>>724302701None of this touches upon why Logarius himself looks like some mad hollow, rather than a proper hunter of the church.
>>724302520The more and the longer you resist the transformation, the bigger and more hellish your transformed body becomes. All these beastly dudes you slash apart are small fry that turned just after huffing some good blood. Amelia resisted the transformation with a strong will and endless prayers, but we finally caught her when her last straw broke.Basically, this wants to tell us that Ludwig was a badass..
Man all they had to do was not drink the fucking blood
>>724302520>everyone else turns into a cool werewolf monsternot necessarily though, unless you think cleric beasts are somehow werewolf-likeLudwig may or may not have ridden a horse, it could very well be entirely symbolic. A horse is a knightly companion after all, and by all means it seems that Ludwig was kind of a noble knight equivalent of a hunter.I actually like how some things in Bloodborne that are clearly meant to be symbolic and metaphorical, take a very real, and kind of a base form. Like the eyes on the inside, come on, it's about "insight", not literal eyes, and yet they go with that visual theme as well. It's a fun mix of a metaphorical concept and a brutishly raw interpretation of it.I think that's the case with Ludwig as well.
>>724303259Maybe that's it?Ludwig never really actually broke. To the very end, he was confident that he had done a good thing.
>>724303538>Ludwig never really actually brokeWe slapped some sense into him during the boss fight. And are able to talk to him. Ludwig was the real deal.
>>724302520*neighs*
>>724303240I've never really thought about it. I just assumed he sat there like an ascetic out of zealous hatred for the vilebloods. Hes loterally just an angry old man.
>>724303534Cleric beasts are big bipedal furry monsters with an elongated snout, sharp teeth and claws and a humanoid body structure. How are they not werewolf-like?
>>724303534>>724302652>>724303063There is this more meta interpretation, that Ludwigs design is inspired by the horse-headed guardian of the chinese underworld.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox-Head_and_Horse-FaceThe arena is littered with corpses, and Ludwig guards the entrance to what is "hell" for a lot of hunters, and the church and their dark secrets.
>>724303240My own headcanon is that his magic is still keeping him alive all those decades later
>>724303906Alfred's dialogue implies that he studied under Logarius so it can't have been that long ago
>>724294619The hunter. Clearly everyone is calling you a foul beast and to leave town
>>724303240Sure, but that isn't what the guy asked. I suppose he was just a dessicated husk from guarding the entrance to the throne room for so long. He was probably subsisting only on his sense of duty and hate for vilebloods.It's also not entirely clear on what level of reality Cainhurst is operating on. Since it's inspired by Dracula's castle, there is bizarre dream logic in some aspects, and the nature of the enemies there is different than the beasts and kin that we see in basically every other area in the game.
>>724303219What always gets me is that "Final"-Yhorm was the statue that came with the prestige edition despite not really being THAT more important than a lot of other characters.Him getting that honor because he's the first boss and the first thing that'll leave an impact on you would make a lot more sense, along with the giant coffin in that arena.
>>724296035>YOU WERE DEAD THE ENTIRE TIME OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHReddit called, they want their boring, trite, overused, 5-minute-youtube-video-essay theory back.
>>724303219Jesus fucking Christ. As if I needed another reason to hate dark souls 3
>>724303968He could be referring to studying under Logarius as a kid, considering the state of the catle it does look like the assault on it was a long time ago but time can be convoluted so idk
>>724303219>By all accounts, Aldrich and Sulyvahn's narrative survived pretty intact, so they're fair game.Actually, Aldritch's AI is named "Sullyvahn" and the Pontiff Sullyvahn we have now was supposed to be the final boss. The boss that would have been in our Pontiff boss arena was the fire witch. They also cut its glaive and gave it this fugly piece of shit.
I beat every ds3 boss today for first time and now feel a crushing emptiness from finishing it after putting it off for years :(
