We need to rework this whole fucking broken system again
Dodge without invul frames is the best
>>724307964System already works fine.Also, your image is missing>Feint
>>724308470That's not a defensive option, that's an offensive option what the image is missing is stagger
>>724308556It is a defensive option>trick opponent into thinking you are going to attack, (potentially!! that's what makes it different from the other 3!) halting their offenseidk how you think staggering counts as a defensive option but not feinting
>>724307964this. You should only be able to phase through walls, fly, and curbstomp niggers. Like there should be nigger NPCs you can curbstomp to evade damage or just for fun
>>724307964rework the real world physical things you can do to avoid being hit?
>>724308470Feint wouldn't work good against AI because either Ai would input read and know it's a feint and ignore it, or just get completely owned by it because it would always fall for it. It could be nice in multiplayer I guess, like cancel-casting in GW1 to fuck over mesmers.
>>724308837Games already did that with i-frames
>>724307964There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The only problem is dodge being so universally useful in 99% of the situations.Also, parrying is either also universally useful and the most powerful option, and the game is centered around it (with dodging being the other, less impactful but more safe option), or it's too niche to really go for it (any souls-game that isn't Sekiro or Bloodborne).
>>724308883It's not any worse than unblockable, unparryable, or undodgeable attacks, you just have to know how a particular enemy reacts to feints. Some enemy types could punish it with increased aggression, others could reset to neutral by dodging away, or a mix of the two.
>>724307964Yeah we should invent new concepts to avoid damage like Galbo, Sormono and Bkrööbe
>>724307964
>>724309094>miss
>>724308736Stagger forces the enemy to not hit you, feints just try to mindgame the enemy into blocking which is redundant since if they're attacking and you're attacking fast enough that they're willing to stop their offense to stop yours then something is very wrong feints are better off for games with directional blocking
>>724307964add stealth and stagger for the sneaky rogues and smashing barbarians
>>724309220Okay, anon, you're in a fight, sword to sword with your opponent. He swings at your neck, explain how you would use stealth to avoid getting your neck chopped.
>>724309132https://youtu.be/XCtuZ-fDL2E?si=orV_0aOv-fGhnvyy
>>724309281not get in that situation in the first place
>>724309328The art of fighting without fighting
>>724307964>Add an arrow to the crosshair>Weapon follows the arrowFixed it for you
>>724309328unfortunately, not getting into the situation you are already currently in did not help you. your enemy has slashed open your neck and you bleed out in seconds, convulsing on the floor.Next time try using your rogue agility to dodge the attack.
>>724308883>know it's a feint and ignore it, or just get completely owned by ityou simply program the ai with multiple RNG responses to a feint. The skill for the player is reacting to the ai's response and not merely autopiloting. Simple or more twitchy enemies can be more susceptible feints, where as patient enemies would require other tactics to beat.
>>724309328wow what an incredible game about not playing the game in the first place. Truly you are a sage 250 IQ worthless nigger
>>724309000Sekiro isn't a souls game.
>>724309132
how is it broken?>block counters light attack>block is mediocre against medium attack>block is countered by heavy attack>dodge counters heavy attack>dodge is mediocre against medium attack>dodge is countered by light attack (spam)>parry counters medium attack>parry is countered by light attack or heavy attack
>>724309281you shoot yourself in the head, your brain has a big hole in itnow how do you save yourself in this situationto clarify things, you are dead and can't move or do anything
>>724309281Wasn't there a fighting style around the cloak and dagger for making a defense by hiding where and when you will stab them
>>724307964You should not be able to parry a greatsword
>>724309787My mummy gives me magic kisses and I get all better
>>724308883Have you fought the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst?
>>724309805There's a lot of duling styles that center around using a cloak over the arm for some protection and obfuscation, yes. The only one that comes to my mind specifically with a dagger is the navaja. The cloak, or shirt, or jacket, or whatever garment you were using, could actually be used to protect your arm and act as a shield, while at the same time being able to be distracting, or fumbling your opponent. Still very dangerous to try and do, of course.
>>724309290>noob it took you 9000000 bullets to kill 500 of us
>>724309814Can you parry a greatsword with a greatsword?
Dodge and parry should never be able to mitigate all the damage you take.
>>724309814Why not? They're only like six pounds.
>>724309328My character is rich and hires people to fight for him. Please add money to the combat triangle.
>>724310406They may be cheap, but they're still heavy.
>>724310067
>>724307964>BlockShould never block 100% of damage>DodgeRemove invul frames>ParryShould not “stun” the attacker
>>724307964This is the moment OP steals the show with a revolutionary idea, right?
>>724307964Add QTE master strikes which obliterate your opponent
Only enemies should parry.You can only dodge and block
>>724309094Imagine not being able to parry this
>>724310895Only I should be able to parry, dodge and block. Enemies should just die.
>>724310895thats why i buy 100 throwing knives so they dont block
>>724309281I merely blend into the shadows
>>724309665stealth games exist
>>724312167unfortunately blending into the shadows has done nothing to stop the sword from slicing open your neck. your enemy has slashed open your neck and you bleed out in seconds, convulsing on the floor.Next time you could try ducking.
>>724312515you can't cut shadows, anon
>>724312515*its a hologram*
>block: low stamina use, vulnerable to grabs>dodge: big stamina use, minimal iframes, long get up time>parry: very limited window, not special attack to it, just leaves the enemy more open to be attacked
>>724312515>DuckingA fowl trick.
>>724307964How is it broken?
>>724312609heh
invest into directional blocks/parries like for honor did
>>724307964It also needs spacing, and staggering the enemy before he hits you. And weapon clashing if you both attack at the same time. It could also include things like repelling the enemy's attack with a magic mirror spell or tanking it with defensive magic buffs.
>>724309000Sekiro parries are extremely weak and barely affect a boss's posture bar. Dark Souls 1 parries give you the equivalent of a Sekiro death blow with a single parry. The only limiting factor is that there are unparriable attacks(also true in Sekiro) and unripostable enemies.
>>724308121fpbp
>>724310268>dodge punch>-10hpwhat the fuck are you on about? thats the whole point of dodge vs block, risk vs reward. blocking gives chip or reduces stamina, dodging is all or nothing
Partial dodges. Instead of getting squarely stabbed in the lung you can take a glancing hit on your side. Same as partial blocks or parries. Also dodge should work together with parries but maybe not with blocks since that would need solid footing.
>>724307964You rework it with physics.
>perfect block allows you to do a counter-bash that can stun multiple enemies>perfect dodge allows you to enter rush mode to do tons of hits or make distance>perfect parry allows you to do a counter that does a fuckton of damage to the enemythere, fixed
>blockchip damage>dodgeprogressively lower the chance>parryincreasingly lower reaction from the character, so eventually you have to predict the hits
>>724309784ackshuly parry should counter heavy attack, because in a good parry you either use the enemy's momentum against him or you engage in a way where his momentum simply doesn't do anything for him. In fact a successfull parry should also counter light attacks, because parrying has also to do with redirecting your opponents attack, which is easier if it has lower force. Unless the successrate is also a determining factor on whether something is considered a "counter" or not. But then block should not be a counter to light, because light attack are also easy to redirect for the attacker, so that they can circumvent your block. Block should also depend on whether a shield is involved. Blocking with a shield should be effective against all kinds of attacks. And if we want to be realistic, heavy attacks shouldn't even be a thing, because the wind up exposes you way too much, giving enemies opportunities to hit you with faster attack. What this means is that the best defends against heavy attacks would be faster offensive attacks. Heavy attacks would only be usable in a scenario where your enemy cannot defend himself because stunned/paralysed/ensnared, or he doesn't notice your attempt to hit him (attack fromm behind).
>>724309132>+100% probably (P(A) = f / N)Nothin' personnel.
>>724307964>Blocking full frontal attacks barely works, you need to at least partially deflect in a direction>Dodging has no iframes and gives up momentum>Parrying is a way to alter an attack action while it's happening, not its own separate action>>724312167You can't do that, the shadows here are deadly.If you were to do it somewhere with fewer deadly shadows, you would blend into the shadows, whereupon your opponent would blend the shadows into a fine paste.
>>724319669>in a good parry you either use the enemy's momentum against him or you engage in a way where his momentum simply doesn't do anything for him.But that's exactly how dodging works i.e. you just avoid contact with the attack.Parrying light attacks makes most sense yes, same as blocking.Blocking heavy attacks with relatively lighter shield is a bad idea, you know basic physics. Also consider shield damage.
>>724318761>dodge punchClip through punch during animation*
>>724322678I really don't get those iframe clipping complaints, I always interpreted it as an abstraction of my character finding a way to not get hit during the dodge animation, the clipping is simply a byproduct of the animation system not being advanced enough to actually show the character rolling/dashing/jumping in such a way that their body doesn't collide with the enemy weapons
>>724323324you are correctyou're running into the unfortunate truth that a lot of people are midwits or worse. They have trouble understanding abstraction and compromise.
>>724323614It has some merit in the sense that fromsoftware games also let you dodge AOE explosions and such where there's basically no safe space around the dodge trajectory the character could be interpreted to be contorting himself into no matter the mental (and physical) gymnastics you could apply to it
>>724309847
>>724307964everyone knows the superior defensive maneuver in souls games is sprinting past everything
Everyone is forgetting spacing, but to be fair so did Hackazaki in every game made after DaS2
>>724307964There's also positioningAnyways, unpopular opinion: Parrying is souls-likes is bullshit and shouldn't existIt's too high-risk and too high-reward, makes for funney and episch replays for montages, but ruins the dynamic and fun of the fight
>>724307964a parry is a deflecting move. as in, the incoming attack is misdirected along your blade or blocked with the crossguard. that means blunt weapons and heavy attacks can not be deflected. it would break your sword and probably your hand. the only offensive defend should be timed block and a pivot/dodge move.
>>724326126>it would break your swordwould it?
>>724307964The problem is that they use "you can mess up the timing" as a substitute for actual risk vs reward, when in reality they're actually just merging 2 completely different outcomes:>you press the parry button at the wrong time, causing you to get hit>you press the parry button at the right time, there are no trade offs in this circumstanceA game like Elden Ring will tardwrangle its bosses in all sorts of ways to try and trick you to mess up the timing but eventually people will solve it and then there's no longer any risk vs reward, you just dodge/parry/avoid the attack with no trade off. In Pokemon, Fire Blast has an 85% chance to hit, which means like above there are 2 different ouctomes (the move hits, the move misses) but there is actual risk vs reward to consider because there's nothing you can do (outsite of stat boosts or cheating) to ensure the move will hit every time, so you have to account for the miss. In Pokemon it wont always be the correct option to use Fire Blast, but if you nail the parry timings on a boss there's no reason not to parry them, the "risk" is fake.This is why 3d action games with an emphasis on 1v1 style bosses are an evolutionary dead end because once you concede that everything the enemy does will have an instant 1 button solution then everything else is just fluff.
>>724326414Yes, if i hit your sword with a hammer or club it's going to break or bend.
>>724326583>it's going to breakIt may bend but I doubt it is going to breakUnless it is a katana or something
parry shouldn't be as easy as pressing a single button at the right time
>>724307964dickass thief is dodgeshieldking is block+parrywizard is positioning/intangible hitbox bullshit
>>724327075>transmoggay
If you hit enemy's face with your shield does it count as parry or block?
>>724326571Both scenarios you're describing can be "solved" in some way, where the parry timing is a skill based solution that one must master individually, whilst anything turn based will be a knowledge and probabilities solution that can be widely applied and knowledge shared.It's unfair to say that a successful parry has no trade off, a parry usually provides an opening to retaliate with free damage.In Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, parrying also has a chance to disarm some opponents, if your shield's guard rating is higher than their weapon's damage rating. Some opponents such as Lynels cannot be disarmed.In an effective combat system, you would also have to learn when performing a parry is either safer or riskier than performing a dodge, or if an attack is unblockable. Parrying can prolong the life of a shield in the aforementioned Zelda games, since every block wears down its durability.Parrying can also just be fun and to show off, like you can parry bees, and you can even parry fired arrows but the timing is incredibly tight.
>>724327075what is that red talisman
as far as iframe and "press button to parry" combat goes, elden ring unironically has the best balance so far among souls derivatives. Rolling is obviously the default, blocking is great, guard counters are great, parries are great, poise and tanking is great with investment, hitbox dodges are useful, jumping is great, ranged attacks are good...and after ER i am really not very interested in souls clones. Id rather see devs making their actual own combat, like silksong.
>>724327427bulwark is at massive frame anyways so there's no reason to use bullgoat's no bully>>724327674from reforged, lets you use magma spells/skills to trade frozen status of enemies into a lava explosion that does area damage+stance damage, instead of needing a magma affinity weapon. Also magma spells +12%
Stellar blade already solved this by making block useful, Parrying charges beta skills and perfect dodges charges burst skills. The game has attacks you can't parry and must dodge (show by a yellow light) and certain attack combos that are too fast/track you to dodge all of it so you need to parry. It also has directional dodges for certain counters. The game has a jump but I only recall a single attack that can but jumped over. The gun is also used but those are kinda because they always tied to a instakill super move. I'd like to see jumping and more creative gun counters in the sequel.
>>724307964remove the iframes from dodgegive the player both a quick dodge and a full dodge rollmake the parry timing very precise, and not spammablemake blocking work on all attacks but consume a shitload of stamina, not sustainablegive the player all three options and design the game so the player cant rely on any one by itselfthere, fixed
>>724307964Brute burst counter
>>724309139Those still aren't defensive options. To feint or stagger you must make a proactive action, even if you don't follow through with it, that the opponent responds to. A defensive action is an action in response to what an opponent has done and committed to. Using your logic of, "It forces the opponent to not hit you," then every single action you can take is defensive, including swinging wildly at the opponents head.Defense is a reactive, not proactive, to an action the opponent has done. Offense is proactive, forcing the opponent to take a reactive action. Staggering is not defensive, it is an offensive action that creates an extended opening in which the opponent cannot react. Feinting is an offensive action, because it is proactive with the intent to make the opponent react in an inappropriate response leaving them open to further offensive action.
>>724309057Great, yet another Bkrööbe shill. How much did big Bkrööbe pay you for that post?WE HAVE TO STOP THIS HERESY!
>>724309094>>724309132
>>724331061>just explained yotei but is too frog brained to ever actually play itsee name √
>>724327075Lord of the Rings Conquest had a good idea for defense for wizards. Basically it was a full 360 barrier that you could hold like a shield that blocked all ranged attacks but it did nothing to protect you from melee attacks. So you would be blocking arrows for your team only to be rushed down.
>>724309493>unfortunately, not getting into the situation you are already currently in did not help you. your enemy has slashed open your neck and you bleed out in seconds, convulsing on the floor.i simply get up
i-frames and parry slop have ruined action games by turning them into rhythm games. you don't have to worry about positioning or using the correct option or anything. you just memorize the timings and tap out the buttons like it's a song in a migu game. for some reason people have decided that this is the ultimate skill expression and the only one action games need to have.
>>724307964What happened to counters? Taking a risky offensive action used to be a valid way to stop an enemy's offense, but now enemies just tank through every hit.
