He's right, you know.
>>724645573yeah, the combat mechanics are awful. nice game for the story/art/music/characters but the gameplay sucks even by jarpig standards
I agree I do think the more humanoid Khajiits should have regular human penises and the more catlike ones should have barbed dicks but what about the ones in Skyrim? Do they have a sheath but no barbs? Or the other way around? Please elaborate in your next essay
Parry/dodge system is not counter intuitive to turnbased and existed before E33. They shouldn't be as merciless as E33s where if you don't do it you die but prompts to do more/take less are the natural evolution of JRPGs. So, no, this plebbit retard is wrong. Plus he calls it "I don't want a tank and spank" when literally turnbased is LITERALLY all just click x on your best ability and spam heals because the game will never throw damage at you that cannot be healed through.
e33 combat is just paper mario 2 if it sucked
>>724645573Of course hes fuckin right the parry shit might have been fun from time to time but thats it, its just fun gimmick.Most of people who want it in every game are faggs who never like jrpg i know it because i know dickheads like that outside net
>>724645573I mean, its a nice spin from the format, but i personally dont like it being a mandatory mechanic you have to engage with, else you lose. Paper mario and that south park game did it better, you could still get by if you never use the perfect strike/dodge/defense
>>724646201>but prompts to do more/take less are the natural evolution of JRPGs?>”turn based combat is supposed to be shitty” postoh never mind
>>724645573He's wrong. Turn based combat is too simple and straight up outdated. It boils down to a single equation; ((your health)/(enemy damage))/((enemy health)/(your damage)) As long as that equation is greater than 1, meaning you do a larger percentage of the enemy healthbar in damage per turn than the enemy does to your healthbar, you win. This is a fundamental fact of turn-based games. They're basically nothing but spreadsheets with little to no actual gameplay. Real-time games depend on you actual skill and reaction times, so there's no way to boil them down to an equation like this.
>>724648226have you played an actual turn based game in your life? there are way too many variables and risks to boil it down like that.
>people enjoyed a turn based game because it's actually not strictly turn basedIn other news, water is wet.
>>724648226this applies to a lot of action games too including /v/ darlings like dark soulsshin megami tensei is better about this
True, I didn't really bother with character building. I always put my points into whatever the weapon scaled best and then I just carried each enemy to death.
>>724645573I agree that not every game should have them, but I wouldn't exactly mind more games that already have reactive defense mechanics having a similar implementation of the low risk/low reward option vs the high risk/high reward option. Fucking TTYD had this too, no reason why we can't have more like it.
>>724648570>there are way too many variables and risks to boil it down like that.NTA, but name some
>>724648884
>>724648884hit chance, resource management, party composition/building, positioning, and enemy prioritization
>>724648226Have you ever considered not playing turn based games if you don't like them instead of insisting that they should be turned into some shit-ass middle ground thing that no one likes and you're still not gonna play anyway?
>>724649042people here in particular are some of the most self centered morons to ever exist. if they don't like something it should always change to their tastes, they are the sole arbiter of quality.
>>724645573Maybe he should play it on something other then Easy mode.
>>724648884status ailments, stat adjustments mid-battle, healing, changing resistances, miss chance, enemy targeting
>>724649039Those are just more variables in the equation, not a counter-argument. Hit chance is probability math. Resource management is damage-per-resource optimization. Party composition is finding the best damage ratios. Status effects and debuffs are still just damage modifiers you can calculate.
>>724649039Also moveset progression. Knowing when you can attack and when you have to prepare for a superattack. Essentially the same as understanding punish windows in action games.
>>724649338Retard here thinks math isn't a skill.>b-but a calculator can do it!And an aimbot can rape you in Quake.
>>724649338yes those are all skills. go play open xcom on iron man if you think solving the math is trivial
>>724645573holy fuck looneytroon is going nuts
>>724649338the point is that these things can change per turn unpredictably, meaning you react instead of repeating the strategy. it's not a linear equation of "how fast does the health bar go down."
>>724648226Do you have a medical diagnosis for your mental retardation.
>>724649338>Anon figures out RPG combat is mathCongrats retard that's why us nerds like it. How good the combat is almost always correlates to the amount of variables
>>724649430>>724649503Complex math is still math. The point is that turn-based outcomes are determined by calculations you can solve with unlimited time, not by execution. That's fundamentally different from real-time skill
>>724648226>non turn based combat is too simple and straight up outdated. It boils down to a single equation; ((your health)/(enemy damage))/((enemy health)/(your damage)) As long as that equation is greater than 1, meaning you do a larger percentage of the enemy healthbar in damage per second than the enemy does to your healthbar, you win.Ok anon.
>>724649664>calculations you can solve with unlimited time, not by execution. That's fundamentally different from real-timeSo give each action 5 seconds. Running precise calcs ruins RPGs. See calcing hits in pokemon for the most documented examples
>>724649664what you're describing is equivalent to how chessbots function. It isn't feasible to calculate the optimal play for a playthrough, you make decisions like taking 2 risky shots from a safe position vs moving in for 1 higher chance shot from a more unsafe position
>actual retard tried to convince people who actually play a genre he doesn't play how shit worksMathlets. Not even once
>>724649338You're almost there bro
>>724649846final fantasy 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, X-2, 13, 13-2...
>>724645573Yep. Parry invalidates a bunch of stats like phys defense, mag defense, HP, evasion and turns the game into glorified rhythm game.
>>724650058>Final fantasy sucks and is too basicYes? Did you really think I would disagree with this
Legend of Dragoon already solved the parry problem by making it that it only happened on certain attacks and not that you could parry every attack. This made both having good gear and good timing important.
>>724650060how is that any more of an issue than having real time combat
>>724650187I 100% LotD when it came out and again in ~2018 and I never knew some attacks can be countered until E33 came out and people started talking about. No wonder I thought it was so hard and all my friends just thought I was really bad at additions
>>724645573I disagree with the opening point of contention completely. I also completed Trails in the Sky 1st and Digimon Time Stranger this year, and I felt more tension facing Painted Renoir in Expedition 33 than I did my respective 80 and 90 hour playthroughs of those games. I still remember how sweaty my palms were when he had a near full bar of health after vanishing Maelle and KO'ing Monoco. Verso was one hit from death and I had to make a gambit: waste resources reviving Monoco and heal Verso - or make use of my near death state for amped damaged with Berserker Slash, knowing a single hit could end my run. I chose the latter and it miraculously paid off. Shit was so satisfying. That said, this guy fallaciously equating the parry/dodge system as an "I win" button, but undermining the consequences of missing the timing. It only takes one false move to wipe your party. You still need to plan for what happens if (when) you fail to dodge or parry and set your pictos accordingly. I don't see where the hell he is even coming from, honestly. I love turn based RPGs but come the fuck on. Most strategy in the late game typically devolves to buff + debuff + weakness exploit + heal unless the enemy/boss has a certain gimmick. The only thing E33 does is give you the opportunity to dodge/parry damage you would otherwise eat and waste a turn to heal later.
>>724650184can you please not talk about the mechanics of games you've never played? it's tedious explaining basic things to you like "Final Fantasy combat already runs on a timer and has for over 30 fucking years."
>>724650426Did you just not notice when the addition square turned red?
>>724650781I'm color blind so no not really. I mostly used the white lines going towards the center of the screen for the visual guide
What's next genre to get infected by parryslop virus?
I thought you were replying to a different post and now realize you were talking about ATB. I thought you were replying to my post complaint about simplistic RPG combat being shit
>>724650874Based blind brute force kang
>>724650874Oof that's fair enough then, I guess if you ever replay it you'd have to watch for the X command to turn into a Circle but that's a bit harder than just looking at the square.
>>724650564The tension you felt was execution pressure, not strategic depth. You were stressed about timing inputs, not whether your build was optimal. That's the point. The parry system shifts the challenge from planning to reflexes.Your gambit wasn't strategic risk/reward. You knew Berserker Slash would work if you landed your parries. The only question was mechanical execution. Missing a parry punishes execution errors, not strategic mistakes. If you can look up the optimal build and win by hitting parry timings, that's a rhythm game with RPG stats, not turn based strategy.The claim that traditional turn based devolves to buff + debuff + weakness is reductive. Resource management, turn economy, and adapting to RNG all matter when you can't just negate damage
>>724651029understandable, everyone makes mistakes sometimes. have a happy halloween, anon.
The original paper mario was pretty good about this, I disliked thousand year doors parry mechanic and thus never used it because it invalided strategy for brute force timing.
>>724651387This, the power scaling in paper mario in general is amazing. I think from start to finish you get like a 10x damage boost, ignoring cheese strats. spreadsheet simulators you get a 10x damage boost every hour until you do so much damage you stop caring about the number.
>>724651638one of the most brilliant things paper mario ever did is make your basic attack do 1 damage, not adjusted by level. every rpg since should've followed in its footsteps.
>>724651141>You were stressed about timing inputs, not whether your build was optimal.My build was based on the extra damage I could dish from Berserker Slash, so this is untrue. It was high risk and high reward. That could have very well been a strategic mistake because there was no guarantee it would have paid off. I simply never expected to be locked in a position where gambling on it with a single party member would make it break my run. Of course the pressure of the timing was a factor - the build was already accounted for. What happened next was contingent on my reaction speed to maximize the build's efficiency as opposed to passively hoping it all works out. Sorry, you are artificially rendering this a binary choice. The timing and the builds go hand and in with E33. And I am no parry god, so at no point did I ever feel like it was a crutch. It just complemented the game. I still had to optimize my builds (eg. Shield up and attack up when about to die, or straight up reviving on death. Relying on healing whenever the enemy burned, etc.) There were a slew of ways my builds saved my ass. You call my claim that most RPGs boil down to buff/debuff "reductionist" yet that is all I am reading with your claims that parry/dodge ruin the turn based nature of the game.
>>724645573Are those "people who want E33's parry system in ALL JRPGs" with us in the room right now? Could you point me to them? A lot of people like it, but I never met someone who'd want literally every JRPG to work like that from now on.We, people with IQ above 100, are able to like two different things at the same time. We can enjoy FFT, BoF4, FF7, CT, Tales of Phantasia, Ys Felghana, Xanadu Next and E33, not just one of them.
>>724645573I agree with literally everything about this. I don't think E33 is a bad game and I would 100% like to see a sequel, but none of the mechanics work well. Something the OP didn't mention and I would add, is the fact that the game has an energy system and an extra turn system both that are triggered based on what pictos you have, but none of them matter because barely into act 2 you will already have the abillity to max out your energy without engaging in the picto mechanics and your extra turn will always prompt (you are limited to 1) which also ignores the picto requirements. It's stupid because you can see the foundation for something that can work but doesn't.
>>724648570There's variables, yes, but they're still variables, part of an equation and it still essentially simplifies to that.>>724648695Not really. Action games fundamentally can't be boiled down like that because they have real time aspects. You can make assumptions like "I'm gonna get hit every x seconds and hit the enemy every y seconds so I need a health and b damage", but it's purely up to your skill how many times you get hit. In turn-based games it's an inevitability.>>724649042I have. That's mostly what I do. I also loved E33 because it had actual gameplay in it. I personally would prefer if more turn-based games had real-time systems like that because I like it.>>724649749Except like I said above, there's no guarantee you'll even get hit, unlike in turn-based games.
I don't get why people pretend e33 started parry or active turn based combat systems. These niggas never played a Mario rpg? Or even just something like legend of dragoon?
>>724652049Your build being designed around Berserker Slash doesn't make the parry system strategic. The build was already set. The moment of tension was purely about whether you could execute the timing. That's not a strategic gamble, that's a mechanical skill check with predetermined outcomes.In a traditional turn based game, that same situation creates actual strategic tension because you can't just negate the incoming damage. You have to calculate survivability based on enemy patterns, your actual defenses, and available resources. The risk isn't 'can I hit the timing,' it's 'did I plan correctly for this scenario.'Saying the timing and builds go hand in hand doesn't address the core issue. If perfect execution removes all damage, then the builds only matter as much as your ability to parry. The strategy becomes secondary to reflexes. That's fundamentally different from turn based combat where planning is the primary skill being tested, not reaction time.Traditional turn based is based on resource management under pressure, turn economy and risk assessment when you can't avoid damage, and adapting when RNG doesn't go your way. The parry system removes most of that layer.
>>724652482You do realize that Legend of Dragoon was always a niche game, right?
>>724645573They/them is correct about everything, trueE33 is still goty
>>724652482Legend of Dragoon doesn't have a parry system, just timed hits. It also has really crappy mechanics in general, worse than E33 so it's not exactly a great example. Mario RPG or rather Paper Mario (since Mario RPG is just timed hits) though is pretty much it, but I will say 3 things for Paper Mario. 1) It's a casual RPG meant to be funny more than mechanically challenging, 2) The game gives you a wide variety of interactive battle actions for attacking and is generally much more interesting with practical tools like you can't jump on an enemy with spikes. 3)The actual parry is much harder to do than the general damage reduction.
>>724652482>I don't get why people pretend e33 started parry or active turn based combat systems.I don't get why people pretend that there are people who pretend E33 started parry or active turn based combat systems.I don't think I've ever seen anyone said that "woah, E33 invented active turns!". Yes, a lot of people say it made the system attractive. Some Mario rpgs may be good, but even by visuals themselves they don't look as dynamic as E33. Shadow Hearts, on the other hand, feels more like an experiment and it needs a lot of work before its mechanics could be called good. It doesn't have parrying though, just pushing buttons while attacking. And it's pretty brutal later on, since if you miss, your attack misses completely.
>>724649664>Complex math is still mathAnd math is a skill. You can take forever to intuit basic math puzzles. That is called sucking ass and when you suck ass tbe experience will be less enjoyable. Same as any other genre of game. You throwing a shitfit because this genre of game tests a different skillset from what you want is laughable.You can take 50 years to calculate the best minmaxxed formula of beating an enemy. You can intuit calculations and problem solve on the fly. This is called varied skill expression.
>>724652335>Action games fundamentally can't be boiled down like that because they have real time aspects. You can make assumptions like "I'm gonna get hit every x seconds and hit the enemy every y seconds so I need a health and b damage", but it's purely up to your skill how many times you get hit. In turn-based games it's an inevitability.it depends. if your health is extremely high, you have ridiculous damage or you have some extreme damage mitigation then you don't need to rely on timingin souls, those would be overleveled tank builds maybe with passive healing, one shot builds, and shield builds maybe with a spear. brain off. bonus if you have a mimic tear or something to skyrocket your dps automatically
>>724652482>These niggas never played a Mario rpg? Or even just something like legend of dragoon?Exactly, these are newfags
>>724650564Oh man, let's see what this guy can do>Summons black holeOk, there we go>Parry>OneshotPaper tiger boss
>>724645573Yes, plebbit 33 isnt a JRPG and they people who like it don't actually like JRPGs>>724648226Case in point
>>724654407>people who like it don't actually like JRPGsWhy people who don't play JRPGs always say this? It sounds like those soiboys on twitter who get offended on behalf of women or black people.
>>724655263>jrpg players are women and blacksapt comparison lol
>>724652789>The parry system removes most of that layerAnd this is where we reach an impasse because I find this utterly disagreeable. If you are part of the .1% who can perfect parry each move to offset all incoming damage - more power to you. This is the outlier, not the standard. If what you claim was an axiomatic truth, there would be no need to optimize builds or experiment with Pictos. I encourage you to play the game with suboptimal/no loadouts and see how it works for you, relying on dodging and parrying alone. Place it on Expert for good measure. Having said this, it IS possible to complete the game without dodging or parrying with certain builds. So again, undermining the traditional strategic depth here one would expect from an RPG comes off a dishonest to me. You are overemphasizing a hypothetical situation of seamless perfect parries which is generally non-applicable to most players. E33 takes a hybridized approach, it is not either or. Resource management and RNG (read: when you miss a dodge or parry and or get hit with a status ailment) still very much apply in E33. It is merely that it adds an additional layer by adding reactive gameplay and giving the player to potentially avoid it as opposed to arbitrarily eating the status effect as per the standard. Hell, I remember when I first saw the Sirene and all the party members were bewitched by her in the cutscene. I was like >Ah, hell nah. I see EXACTLY how this shit is gonna go. Because I knew by default the boss battle was going to assrape me with charm. My response? Build my loadouts around nullifying charm before the boss. Saved. My. Ass. Because dodging that bullshit was not in the cards for me. Sorry, anon. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.
