>“We worked a lot on multiple iterations of an open-world spy game, and it never came together. Agent had about five different iterations. I don’t think it works, I concluded. I keep thinking about it sometimes, I lie in bed thinking about it, and I’ve concluded: What makes them really good as film stories makes them not work as video games, or I need to think through how to do it a different way as a video game.”>After further explanation, Houser concluded with an interesting statement: “I question if you can make a good, open-world spy game.”Rockstar tried to make one for a decade+ and could never make it work.
He was thinking for over a decade and never thought about not making it dogshit open-world garbage?Absolute genius of the industry.
Is Lex fridman a frutier, safer version of Joe Rogan or something
I would feel genuinely embarrassed asking someone about something that didn't happen, probably wasn't going to happen, and people didn't even know about at the time it was """""relevant""""", 20 fucking years agoI hope this guy isn't relevant in the podcasting world.
Should have just made an open world Manhunt game in pretty much the same manner.
imagine if video game developers actually played video games.
>>724712278He works for BRICS.
Dan Houser was 27 when he wrote and released GTA3. That fucks me up
>>724713890it was a different time
>>724713890Why would it lol? Are you in a position to publish your own videogame? Then do it. Otherwise stop whinging
>>724711865>: What makes them really good as film stories makes them not work as video games, or I need to think through how to do it a different way as a video game.”Strange words coming from one of the biggest proponents of moviegames on the planet.
>>724711865>start watching podsat> "OI! U WOT M8?">turn it off
>>724714318you have literally no clue about what you're talking about. Please stick to asmongod threads.
Well considering none of their games have decent gameplay this doesn’t surprise me. They probably wanted to include some stealth mechanics but got filtered hard.
>Dev realizes open world garbage is unplayableSomewhat based
>>724712790What part of "open-world" did you not understand? Alpha Protocol would have been trash if it weren't as tightly designed as it was. You really think you could do that kind of reactivity with dozens of times the scale? Or do you just think Alpha Protocol would be preferable if it had a bunch of open world padding in between the parts we already have?
>>724714383Great argument mate, you make it during your forced walk and talk sections of the latest cockstar game?
>>724714696Alpha Protocol being the framework, is the point.It's also why HItman does the same type of open-world.Houser is retarded for thinking open world is only GTA's kind of open world.
it's insane to me that people put up with Lex, this guy is painful to listen to, physically painful.It was great actually hearing Dan talk about Rockstar though
I don't think it's that hard desu.In my mind it would be a soviet era spy game with mechanics from Deus Ex and Hitman WoA.A series of cool hubs across the world where you're given objectives and need to figure out how to complete them.
>>724714840Nah, what you're talking about isn't open world. Hitman is not open world. Alpha Protocol isn't open world. Fallout was technically considered open world when it came out but if it came out today fucking no one would call it that. You're being pedantic.
>>724714946You could do it but the open world aspect would be superfluous. Like the main locations would work like a Hitman level but you'd have country side in between that would have fewer patrols and be less openly hostile.
>>724714946>open world can only be literally 1 giant open-world great stuff
>>724714318RDR2 is their only movie game and even that doesn’t really count. When people say movie game they mean shit like Kojima or Naughty Dog shit.
>>724714696Hitman series. Assassins Creed and Watch Dogs. MGSV and Ghost Recon Wildlands. Open world spy games are a diamond dozen. They already exist.
>>724715141>>724714840Fundamentally there is a difference between Sandbox and Open World.
>>724715180All of Kojima's games have more complex gameplay than any Rockstar game. Yeah he makes long cutscenes but there is plenty of gameplay inbetween.
>>724711865>writes the plot of a game along with a bunch of other writers>thinks he knows what makes a good game work
>>724715346which is what exactly?
>>724715386Open World is the entire world is one connected map you can travel around. There may be locks or gates but theoretically it's all accessible. Sandboxes are larger single maps, maybe they interconnect but still function as separate rooms. Banjo Kazooie or Tony Hawk's American Wasteland comes to mind. A game like Infamous would be a proper open world but barriers you from the other zones before you beat the zone boss and functions more like sandboxes despite the contrary design.
>>724715613Would you consider Death Stranding to be open world or a sandbox?
>>724715364Death Stranding 2 is so easy that it undermines the tools it gives the player. Every mission is so easy to do by driving a truck. It is bad design to not challenge the player by such an extent.
>>724715689I haven't played it yet because Sony are cocksuckers who haven't put it on PC. I love the first game though.
>>724715613Is Runescape open-world or a sandbox?>Open World is the entire world is one connected map you can travel around. As i said, this is extremely limiting. Open-world is just about an open-map not forcing the player down a linear path.
>>724714318>>724715364the point he made was that an open world spy game does not work in terms of pacing because the urgency and pinpointedness of the job of an agent does not make sense to place within an open world. He went on to say that the reason GTA and Red Dead work is that because you have no boss, you are a criminal so in terms of pacing it makes sense that you would fuck off and go do nothing but wreak havoc or whatever it may be because there's no grand "mission" stakes. To roam free and waste time, and risk compromising yourself does not make sense as an agent.
>>724715383He made the most successful game of all time more than once. He's like the James Cameron of game devs. I think he is entitled to believe he knows everything.
>>724715186>Hitman seriesNot open world>Assassins Creed and Watch DogsTrash>MGSV Alright but the open world wasn't great and this is a different kind of spy game. The entire thing is visual stealth. Spies aren't just about hiding in cover from people.>Ghost Recon WildlandsTrash
>>724712278Just another jewish "american conservative" controlled op "personality"Pay him no mind
>>724715908The James Cameron comparison is appropriate because like him, Rockstar makes games that appeal to a mass market. It's not surprising that they're very successful. I don't think they've taken a real risk in over a decade though. Probably not since Max Payne 3.
>>724715141No, anon. Open-world means that it's a game that focuses on a giant fuckhuge map or maps. Games that have incredible content density like Alpha Protocol and the Hitman games are the polar opposite of open world games.What you're suggesting is that there's no obvious difference between Dark Souls 1 and Elden Ring, and that both are open world games. That's fucking retarded. Your definition might have been accurate three decades ago, but now, if you want to differentiate between those two games, the easiest way to do it is "One is open world, the other isn't". Simple as.And with that definition in mind, Dan Houser is right. A good open world spy game is impossible.
>>724712790Only proving him right, that game was fucking awful.
>>724712790This one of the shittiest games I've ever played. Obsidian has never made a good game, they butchered KotOR 2 and Fallout, and certainly didn't make a good spy game.
>>724716089>What you're suggesting is that there's no obvious difference between Dark Souls 1 and Elden Ring,no? They're just different kinds of open-world. It's really not hard to grasp.
>>724715908His brother is the one that oversees and sets the creative direction along with the other producers
>>724716089Just Cause 3 is an open world spy game and it is good. I think Dan is proven wrong objectively.
Hitman could pretty easily be open world. Not that it would be better for it.Deus Ex is borderline.
>>724716358Unless you come up with a good term for what me and Dan Houser consider open world (Elden Ring, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, the GTA games, etc), I will continue using open world like I use it. The Hitman games and Alpha Protocol are not open world.
>>724714841this, I can't fucking listen to this retard for more than 3 seconds. Fortunately there's a transcript for the whole interview
>>724716105>>724716220Notice how you cannot substantiate your claims. It is obvious that you do not like Alpha Protocol because you couldn't deal with the RPG gameplay aspects.
>>724716419Not really. It's an open world mercenary game with big explosions and vehicle stunts, and is basically imitating GTA in a lot of its gameplay. You don't do any spying in it. The stunts and vehicle chases are only superficially inspired by 007 and Mission Impossible.
>>724716447You and the other anon don't even agree though, nobody has a good term.>Open-world means that it's a game that focuses on a giant fuckhuge map or maps >Open World is the entire world is one connected map you can travel around.
>>724711865>ITT: dunning kruger /v/irgins thinking theyre so much smarter than a guy who made some of the greatest video games of all timeI need to leave this place while Im still young...
>>724716603Weird. What's your problem with the way he speaks?
>>724716419Rico is more of a saboteur/agent provocateur. I think Houser wanted something like Bond/OSS 117.
>>724716767yes anon, the millionaires can never be wrong, always listen to them
>>724716718Yeah, I don't agree with that anon. Under his definition, The Witcher 3 wouldn't be an open world game, for example.Pretty obvious to me that you need to include it.
>>724712790Pic unrelated, the gameplay was absolutely dogshit. It looked and played like a cereal box game.Chaos Theory came out 5 years before this btw
>>724716767You could literally just make Hitman, but have one big map.It would in no way be better than Hitman, but you could do it.
>>724716767GTA is the production of literally thousands of highly skilled individuals working at the top of their game with near infinite money. Not saying Dan isn't important but he's one of many.
>>724711865WHY DOES FRIDMAN ALWAYS TALK LIKE HE JUST WOKE UP?
>>724716958Case in point.
>>724717075being a pseud is tiring work
>>724711865Damn, not even Indiastar could make it work?
>>724712278industry plant
>>724711865>all the Rockstar games have the exact same tired format that was dead and buried when GTA 4 was released"THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE A OPEN WORLD SPY GAME!"
>>724716958Dan is 100% solely the reason why their games had such incredible writing, stories, and characters. The humor, the soul, the emotion. GTA 6 is going to prove us right that their games are nothing without him.
>>724711865I'll never forgive him for fucking up Max Payne 3
>>724716767Why did someone edit Ryan Goling's face over him?
>>724717725Why would he need forgiveness for making by far the best game in that series? Hell, basically the only the good game in that series.
>>724711865Isn't Watch Dogs and Just Cause something like that? Just make the overworld gameplay non canon and let people do crazy shit with gadgets
Rockstar games have garbage gameplay so it's no surprise they're not confident approaching a different genre. After RDR1 and GTA4 they've actually regressed in combat and physics, their games are carried by high production values and presentation.
>>724717817Watch Dogs is just le epic hackers doing heists and Just Cause is just jumping off cliffs to do cool parachute stunts. Neither are about spies, and the gameplay certainly doesn't reflect it much. In fact, both just play like GTA at the end of the day so are essentially proving him right.
>>724711865rockstar bros...
how the fuck does lex fridman get all these high profile guests
>>724712278He is useful idiot. That's all
>>724711865Damn, not even Rocksaar could make it work?
>>724718010lol, lmao even
>>724711865>open-world spy gamesWho asked for this? What would that even play like? Why would you want to merge the stealth genre with the open world structure of action games? One relies on carefully handcrafted levels which have to account for the multitude of abilities you give the main character while the other uses the open world as a background and stage for the player to fuck around in. One requires huge amounts of attention while the other is just a sandbox with very little built in detail due to its size being prohibitive towards investing into high resolution structures for the gameplay.If you wanted to make an open world stealth game, you'd have to cheat and have small pockets which are handcrafted in a sea of nothing, which would become very predictable and boring very fast. Why hasn't he thought about making a stealth racing game? Or a FPS card playing game? Or a turn based football game? It's equally retarded to attempt any of those. But he is 100% right about the transition from film to games, that's why there's never been a competent Evangelion anime game, some concepts simply cannot be game-ified. It's sort of nice that he still has that young boy in him>that's such a cool movie, i'm going to make it into a video game and it's going to be awesomeYou need that perspective and view of the world to be creative.>>724712278>Is Lex fridman a frutier, safer version of Joe RoganThat's why he's there.LexFridman is an actor pretending to be something he's not, that's why his way of talking seems stilted. Rogan doesn't need to pretend because he has no agenda, that's why he speaks with conviction. Fridman has an agenda and he's there despite not wanting to be there because he has to. His way of talking gives him enough time to juggle all the talking points required, plus it also makes him look like he's careful with words.If you look at Elon Musk, you will see his "autism" facade fall for 0.5 seconds here and there, because he's also pretending.
>>724711865Bald faggot just accepted that he was never able to create game with different gameplay than gta trash
>>724718126I'd actually really like an open world game where you have a GTA size map, but the whole thing is about investigation and espionage, as opposed to "follow the arrow".
>Open world spy game never worked>So instead of ditching the open world part, we just dropped it entirelyWhy? Its' not like they haven't made linear games before.
>>724715946>Watch Dogs>trashI don't know about the 2nd and 3rd game as I didn't play them but the firsr game was a really good blend of GTA + Assassins Creed with hacking. The game was a bit dark and there was not that much quirkiness. Just complete badassery. Sort of like Batman Arkham Knight.
This thread has made me realize that for the most part, a lot of different games have tried that, many of which were made by Ubisoft, and I can't say that any really succeeded. I think he might be right. It just ends up being GTA with forced stealth missions, and nobody likes that.
>>724718181Bald faggot made some of the most memorable games ever. What did you make that people will play decades after your death?
>>724712225>>724714626>not making it dogshit open-world garbage?Why are most critiques on this site always so goddamn retarded? >Yeah bro, let's just not do the thing that's made us famous and what we're known for. Fucking kys dude. You contribute nothing to society and bring nothing interesting to the table with your thoughts. Everything you like is probably rancid dog shit. >>724715364Almost 95% of the people that play Rockstar Games play their games to experience what they've updated with the Rage engine, NPC radiance, and dicking around in the open world. If you think people are purchasing and playing Rockstar Games for linear narratives, you're retarded and there's nothing that can help you. The missions and story simply are there for more padding and content. If you like them that's just a bonus for Rockstar. Whether you like open world or not, when you hear the word "open world", and you don't think of Rockstar you're fundamentally retarded and do not understand this industry. No developer on the planet has contributed more or made the genre more of a staple then Rockstar. Every deblv can trace back their obsession with open world to Rockstar. They are not known for movie games. They are know for open world.
>>724718498relax pajeet
>>724711865>why muh empty open slop doesn't work!!stupid balderino filtered from linear immersive gameplay development
>>724718502>Almost 95% of the people that play Rockstar Games play [blah blah blah blah]Cool. Who are you replying to though?
>>724718468the actual problem is if it was done well, it would filter the GTA audience.It'd be something more like Shenmue. A game where you're rooting around for clues to figure out where to go.
>>724718502Well, anon, clearly it didn't work out for them by their own admission, so we were right. They spent a decade trying to make it work and couldn't.
>>724718126>Or a FPS card playing game? Or a turn based football game?Both these sound potentially based, as opposed to open world garbage.
>>724718597I'm replying to any dumbass who thinks Rockstar is a movie dev and not an open world dev. When people playef GTA III back in the day they weren't thinking about the characters or the missions. They were blown away by the fact you could get in a car, drive wherever you wanted, rob people have the cops chase you, and random events could happen in a 3D open environment. That's been the case for every one of their games since then.
>>724718295It's no fun, but enjoy.
>>724718593that's a sandbox, not an open world
>>724718502>They are know for open world.They are known for letting darkies live out their destructive fantasies.※ "Darkies" includes all Americans.
>>724718803that's a good start, but it's really basic. More a proof of concept than anything.
>>724711865No surprise the company that couldn't make great open world games think a spy game is impossible
>>724718852GTA sells more in Europe and it's made by Europeans. The games take place in America because there's more freedom.
>>724718126>Or a turn based football gamebloodbowl has a small but solid following
>>724712881nah he works for MIT
This is like saying you can't think of a way to create a story-driven action game in an open world. You do it the same way GTA always has, by having missions that set off scripted events within a given area of the map.Now if he's saying he couldn't think of a way to do that where it wouldn't just be a bunch of jumbled areas connected together by comparative nothingness that you'd have to traverse through to get to the mission (think LA Noire) then he's probably correct. Hitman could have had an open world connecting all of the mission areas but that would have been stupid and a waste of resources so they didn't do it.
>Faggots are arguing about the headline instead of actually listening or reading what he actually said.Brownoid behavior
>>724713890Seth rogan wrote superbad when he was 13And it's one better than 95% comedy and coming of age movies.
>>724715186>diamond dozenit's "dime a dozen" you fucking moron
>>724711865Assassin's Creed, the original, solved 90% of this already
>>724711865Well Hitman is kind of spy adjacent and while it's technically not open-world it's a good starting point for coming up with an open-world spy game design.
He said it was a pacing issue, not a design issue. They can design a spy game with a massive map, but spy movies usually have a ticking clock and lots of restrictions, which make them compelling and genuinely thrilling to watch. That’s different from the typical Rockstar game design, where you’re just messing around a lot. If you spend too much time fooling around in enemy territory, it kills the tension.
>>724719368I rewatched it recently and it is still great. Although the cop characters are the worst part of the movie, they're obviously written from the perspective of "these fuck up loser cops are kind of cool, right?" I think they should have been a bit more neutral good rather than "lmao these guys rock!" I don't hate them necessarily but they are a stain on an otherwise great film
>>724719936It has a lot of soul for a stupid teen comedy, and I think its portrayal of cops reflects more of a edgy teen's perspective rather than some ACAB shitI would’ve loved a Bully 2 with a similar tone but that’s never happening. I wanted to blow my brains out when I saw the leaked concept art from the cancelled Bully sequel.
>>724713890Previous generations had more faith in youthNow you get both of "uwu 36 is still a wittle babby ;33" and "fucking lazy brats can't do jack shit and expect 6 figures", neither approach lets you grow into a respectable position
>>724718126So something like Metal gear solid V?
>>724712278He's less fruity but he's managed to convince the world that he's the guy for people too smart to be on joe rogan when he's actually even more retarded
>>724711865Would work as a Danger Man game
>>724718502>Yeah bro, let's just not do the thing that's made us famous and what we're known for. Ironically yes, rehashing the same game for more than two decades with slightly better grafixx to appease the retards that get impressed by pretty lights is how creativity dies
>>724720443if I could tweak their characters just a bit, a change I'd make would be that in the end they didn't end up being the good guys, but not bad guys either. Just sort of leave them as a non sequitur, eventually McLovin ditches them and there really isn't anything more to it than them being a couple of retarded cops he ran into.Instead they end up playing a role in the story and become these characters you're supposed to root along for and that's the part I find gay.
>>724712225For reals. Like, holy shit. They have a money printer, use it to try different shit. Don't put your eggs all in the fucking open world basket.>>724718502Shut up, you fucking retard. They aren't some small indie studio, they can afford to take huge risks and make a non-open world game. If it's good, it'll sell. They've got some of the best programmers and have pushed a lot of tech. There's no reason it has to be open world. That doesn't work for every game.
>>724721068Fair It sucks so much ass that Seth rogan and Judd are these retard libs now so they can't more comedies for guys
>>724713890it was a completely different way of doing things back then>apply to a game developer>send them your ideas/portfolio/example of your work>get the jobnow>apply to a game developer>competing with 1,000 other "game dev" college degree students most of who are willing to work for peanuts>also competing with 1million SEAnigs and Indian outsourcers>ALSO competing with soillenials and boomers that already work in the industryeven if you have a genius idea or amazing talent, it's very difficult to be noticed in such a huge ocean of shit. think about how there hasn't been a single new auteur game director in 15-20 years. the only NEW famous names in game dev are solo indie guys like concernedape, notch, etc.
>>724711865I agree with him. Him and I probably don't think at all about the same thing when we think about "what makes a good game."But for example, I watched Mad Max Furiosa this year, and all those things that are done in that movie like how she gets off the bike right after the peak of a dune to snipe someone, how kicking up sand with the tires was used to desorient enemies etc. would make for cool game mechanics. But at the same time, these films, and that includes spy films are carried by their set pieces, like how would you be able to execute a scene like the assault of the huge tanker without heavy scripting in a game? In a way that gives the player full control? It just wouldn't work.The only way you could make such a game would be by essentially making everything glorified cutscenes like Uncharted, which makes for a bad game in my opinion, but should theoretically make for a good game according to Dan Houser
>>724712225>He was thinking for over a decade and never thought about not making it dogshit open-world garbage?If you actually listened to the podcast you'd know it wasn't Rockstar's decision.
>>724718295
>>724720957>>724721135Name one dev and team who doesn't rehash the same concept that made them famous and well received.
>>724711865>open world where you play as a criminal or cop:D>open world where you play as a spy :<where's the logic
>>724711865Have two or three different factions. They each have multiple large facilities across the map (kinda like an MGS level), and other things like supply depots, etc. You accept open mission postings from postings like armored core where you work for each agency/company. The different ones you do change the story and the outcomes available to you.It would have to be a fictitious setting, because this would be retarded irl. To differentiate from just any other open world mercenary game - stealth and gadgets would need to be the emphasis.Otherwise if you wanted a CIA style game, the only thing I could imagine would be some sort of management sim (a weird strategy offset) because most irl spying doesn't seem like it would work as a game.So work off of an audience's perception of what a "spy": is, vs a realistic one. Rockstar's autism probably leaned too closely to realism
>>724711865Yeah probably couldn't figure out how to have chatty spies talking about bullshit for 10+ minutes every mission in a STEALTH GAME where you should be quiet
>>724718309It was Take Two's requirement, and they weren't looking to budge on that since Rockstar is supposed to be the best open-world developer.
>>724718502>You contribute nothing to society and bring nothing interesting to the table with your thoughts. Everything you like is probably rancid dog shitTRVTHNVKE. These people are like Pavlovian dogs. They hear the words "open world" and they execute the script, the same that they always do in every thread.
>>724723717Kamiya
>>724717131>In October 2009, with a deadline coming up, Sam Houser became anxious about Red Dead Redemption not being in good enough shape. He wrote an email to Benzies that month, saying, "The ups and downs are VERY extreme. We have to fix this. Quickly. Help! I'm freaking!'">The very next day, Sam Houser sent another email to Benzies further elaborating on the game's problems at the time and how he wanted Benzies to assist.>"This [RDR] is a (recurring) nightmare," Sam Houser said. "But one i/we need to get out of. I have problems with the camera all over the place. So much so, that I can't be rational or specific about it. The darkness!!!">"PLEASE help me/us get rdr [Read Dead Redemption] into shape. I am a jabbering wreck right now," he added. "I need The Benz!'">The lawsuit goes on to claim that after Benzies stepped in to help, Rockstar San Diego completed work on the game "within a few months," getting it ready to show to partners such as Sony and Microsoft.
>>724711865This was a comfy interview, not even Lex Fridman's retard voice and AI tier responses could deter me from hearing from Dan, he's an interesting guy.
>>724723717Old Blizzard.
>>724718591Concession accepted, bald faggot.
>>724716767can you please explain why open worlds with:assassins(lots of sneaking and spying)spidermenwitchersskyrimszeldascriminals and police(guns btw)hackerssamuraicarslegoand big boss(spy btw)work but a game with... a spy(sneaky man with a gun) wouldn't work? I really want to understand this
>>724711865I'm not so sure. When I played Shadows of Doubt I felt like the same methods used to create that game could be used as a model for a lot of other styles. I think a spy game using the same format could be possible. It would be fairly basic gameplay but it's a start.
>>724712225Isn’t that what he just said?>We tried to make an open-world spy game>we concluded that wasn’t gonna workWhat the hell kind of response is>HAVE YOU CONSIDERED MAKING A DIFFERENT KIND OF GAMEyes, retard. What, you think he gave up game development entirely? No. He gave up making an open-world spy game because those two concepts don’t gel together.
>>724712790>posts a pile of dogshit to prove his point
>>724712225Open world games are good and you should kill yourself
>>724711865you could have different ways to end up in the same missions and have the story vary depending on the players actions, so it was a choose your own adventure, but the set piece missions were all going to be in order but the player can trigger them different ways.
sad, my dream game is blade runner with la noire gameplay. Were you fire your gun at most like 5 times during the whole thing, and you can take in the scenery from your spinner
>>724711865Ehh you could make it work, set it in the iron curtain, you would be a handler who recruits and manages a network of spies who are all performing different tasks, some of which are very involved and require heist like mechanics. I don't think it could work with a single character because the day to day life of a single spy is boring. I'm not surprised rockstar couldn't make it work though because all their games are shit. Also, people are getting confused with spy and stealth action.
>>724714717Look, I have to do something while I'm waiting for these Genshin cutscenes to finish.
>>724711865MGSV proved him correct. It just isn’t good.
>>724713890It should. I managed a software department at Dentsu when I was 27.
>>724711865AGENT NIGGERS NOT LIKE THIS!?!?!?!?!?
>>724728727I can take a crack at it. Consider that, compared to a Rockstar open world, all those games suck. That's probably why. Even more likely it's that it didn't fit Rockstars flavor of open world.
>>724731927when I was 27 I had never had a job and been neeting for 9 years straight since dropping out of school, I had too much anxiety to talk to people and was a complete shut in. Many years have passed since then and my life is much the same, except I have now had a job in between that time, as a janitor.
>>724711865Just make it like Deus ex? you're given a target, need to scout out a location, and investigate maybe work out who the target is, what their schedule is and where best to carry out the attack without being noticed. It could 100% work.
>>724711865Lex is a mossad industry plant but I might actually listen to this one because agent is one of those lost games I'm interested in.
>>724717131Misunderstood genius, MINDSEYE is a masterpiece.
>>724717672This but my dawg Lazlow.
>>724711865Fraud cunt
>>724730473all of them are shit
>>724716767he was just lucky
>>724714840>"just mix X with Y and make it le work, bro!"Amazing, mr. 4channer, simply eric.
>>724725939>he fired the fucking Benz
>>724712225So goddamn tired of these contrarians.It's like saying milk is shit because you drank spoiled milk 1 time.Open-World is THE way to make a game. All of the best games ever made strove for either that design or emulating a living world. The biggest problem with the genre, which isn't even the fault of the genre, is that the industry keeps starting with an open-world foundation THEN DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING INTERESTING AROUND IT.Motherfuckers are actually playing trash like Assassin's Creed then saying Morrowind and GTA are bad because of it.It doesn't get more "I didn't play it but it's popular and I want to be different" than this exact sentiment. Crying about open-world as a genre is code for "I have shit taste".A significantly larger problem is industry stagnation. Open-World games are the poster child for how much damage it has done.We went from Elder Scrolls to fucking Star Wars Outlaws. That is very clearly not a genre problem.
>>724712225>gets paid to just think for 10 yearsI'd say that is pretty genius
>>7247147172 rockstar games exist that do that and 1 only does it a couple times. You don't understand how retarded you sound.
>>724715613Your point is correct but you made it terribly and are wrong.Open-world games are narrative-focused, designed with progression and conclusion in mind.Sandbox games are just big open environments with all kinds of toys to play with and no real conclusion can be reached.It's that simple.also>Banjo-Kazooie is a sandbox gameJesus Christ dude get a fucking clue
>>724716054>GTA was made to appeal to a mass marketThis proves you are a child that has no idea what culture was like in 2001.Rockstar was actively hunted for over a decade by politicians and normie pearl-clutchers. Rockstar openly mocked many aspects of American culture and it infuriated millions. They made anything but a game with mass appeal.At the E3 they debuted the game, EVERYONE was disinterested and thought the game wasn't going to work.You fucking stupid child. Dan Houser, Leslie Benzies, and Lazlow are THE best developer trio of our time.Take note that the second that trio broke up, GTA Online launched.
Max Payne 3 is the worst of the three and Houser completely failed at understanding the character,
>>724719368he co-wrote it with goldbergensteinroth
>>724711865it wouldn't have worked at the time because you couldn't go into any house or building without breaking the immersion. tech just wasn't there yet, I imagine that was a main contributing factor to him deciding it couldn't work.
>>724739908and what I mean by that is. load gta v. you can't just run up to a house and be like oh I'm going to walk in, break in, pick a lock to get in. you can't go into 90 percent of the fucking buildings, and if you can there's a long loading screen.
This shit looks so fucking cringe and gay.The rockstar guys really are nothing without each other.
>>724714871That’s not open world then. That’s open level. And imagine being a spy in one country with a mission, and then half way through you just fast travel to another to do a side quest. It’s weird.
>>724717075He isn't a native english speaker and it's actually a cleaned-up russian accent.
>>724711865doesnt this concept exist already?
>>724717672gta 5 writing is garbage, all their games are just stolen tropes from movies
>>724738291No, open world games are shit and will always be shit. The reason is the scope becomes too big. They don't know how to design an open world where there's anything in it and the world design itself also suffers. Then there's the issue of coding and optimization. Too many aspects of the game will suffer when attempting to make it open world. Just because you can take 15 years going from 1 town to the next doesnt make it good and the choices and progression are typically shit too. The stories suck, the music sucks, the characters suck, and the combat sucks. Open world is the sign of being creatively bankrupt
>>724718502Can you stop seething for a second to take Dan's cock out of your mouth, little faggot fanboy?
>>724740619How the fuck did they not play this?Wanting to avoid influence is reasonable but this is just being a stubborn idiot.
>>724740824Bull fucking horseshit. The scope can be whatever size you want. Your entire argument makes no sense. GTA Vice City is smaller than GTA 3 and sold more.You just don't want to admit that developers now are lazy and have no talent. You would rather dismiss an entire genre than hold a single person accountable for being bad at game design. You have shit taste. You are an idiot with no argument.
>>724712790>>724714840>>724716358Holy fucking retard
>>724711865
>>724738291>All of the best games ever made strove for either that design or emulating a living worldlol is this the part where open world tards go "Zelda 1 and Deus Ex were totally trying to be open world so they're basically a W column for our open world design?"Of the top 100 games, you'd be lucky if 2 open world garbage games made it. It's a shit design that won't stop infecting the industry like a cancer because normalfagroids are fucking stupid and reviewers pretend these games are GOTYAY when they all get boring within a few hours.
>>724711865>>724742697It's a dog eat dog world Ray and I'm the fuckin' Chinaman
>>724743068
>>724742697Conehead looking motherfucker
>In 2024, the company partnered with QCode to release A Better Paradise, an audio fiction series exploring themes of artificial intelligence and virtual reality. The series debuted at number one on Apple's Fiction charts.[11][12] In 2025, Absurd Ventures is set to release American Caper, a comic book series set to introduce a crime-fiction universe.[13] In January 2025, the company unveiled the "Absurdaverse", featuring a diverse mix of characters. This initiative includes animation projects and an upcoming story-driven action-comedy adventure game.[14][15] It revealed its first novel, Houser's A Better Paradise Volume One: An Aftermath, in March; an adaptation of the audio series, it is set to be distributed by Simon & Schuster in 2025.[16] A video game in the A Better Paradise universe is in development.[15] Houser felt the serious tone of A Better Paradise made it suitable as an audio series, novel, television series, and video game, while the Absurdaverse was more suited to animation and a video game, and American Caper to a comic book and trade paperback.[15] The company had approximately 50 employees across its two studios as of 2025.[17]Honestly, I do feel happy for the guy. He went from having to wait a decade and a half to have any story he wrote finally get released by Rockstar to just writing whatever he wants and releasing it in a million different formats. Must be comfy, even if it has an exponentially smaller audience.Having said that, I'm not interested in any of this shit until I see the actual vidya for it and even then only if it looks very good.
It's very clear that people don't mean open world in these discussions when they only havr ubisoft's shitty ass version of it, that many dev tried to copy, in mind. Open world games existed long before them and even before GTA gave it a shot in 3d.
There's only one way to make an agent game. You need to bring a man of culture and funky jazz music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRpJ8PForOk&list=PLAP1EKQHVw8EAUuSSiumLRH0pujWy7rN_&index=4
>>724741794>>You just don't want to admit that developers now are lazy and have no talent.I JUST FUCKING SAID THAT YOU GOD DAMN RETARD. Jesus christ, no wonder you like open world garbage. Vice City is small scale and you should take into consideration that people love Scarface and the 80's. Open world fucking sucks and there's no defending it. Nobody can make a worthwhile game that's open world. Rockstar attempts it but the only thing that saves anything they're doing is the story missions. If they made GTA like they did Red Dead Revolver, which is mission based, then GTA would still work just fine. Their open worlds suck and it's just going from point a to point b to start a mission that takes place in a small area. Any of the missions where you have to chase someone are a retarded waste of time that add nothing.
>>724711865Idea: 2 games in 1.80% of the game is like Harvest Moon or something, you run a farm. Maybe a tavern. Talk to people etc.20% of the game is doing spy missions and not getting detected.
>>724743458Yes, yes, Fallout was technically an open world game when it came out in the late 90s. No one would call it that now. The genre evolved and now it explicitly means Bethesda + Rockstar + Ubisoft tier stuff. It's a completely useless descriptor if you try to widen the net. Deal with it.
>>724738291retard alert
>>724711865>open-world spy gameLiterally MGS V.
>>724718502I liked Midnight Club and Table Tennis. Not every project needs to be open world meme by them.
Honestly now that I think about it why not just make it like LA Noire?
>>724744792That's not what he's talking about. MGS V is a pure stealth game. Spies are about blending normally in the world too.>>724746269Because the open world in LA Noire was completely superfluous and boring as fuck
>>724744792To be fair, MGSV fucking sucked ass.Watch Dogs is an open world spy game though.
>>724746269you can't. whore of the orient was already tried and that was even before the clown world.
Open world is the Laziest game design philosophy, it allows you to excuse purposeless geometry and check box style quest design because "dude the world is 8x bigger than deerborn, MI!!!". Populate the map with bullshit filler and have a story that ignores the open world completely.
>>724711865>open-world spy gameswoahi will now read your thread
I wonder how many games Rockstar decided to shelve and just would rather focus on the GTA money cow.
>>724749883nevermind this thread sucksbut, >open world>procedural>nonlinear
>>724719936Superbad gets shit in the second half of the movie. Specifically when they go to that party to steal alcohol, and then the cop shit. It's lame. The movie is best at the start when it's the three of them.
>>724711865How many spy movies have come out within the last decade? He was probably split between having it be like Bond or Kingsman.
>>724711865Yeah? They said catching that pass at my high school championship football game was a 'bad idea' cause I broke my leg in thirteen places. But... I scored a touchdown and won the game. The world is built out of bad ideas, my friend.
>>724737326Sam is notorious for throwing tantrums during crunch periods. He is a fucking nutter and hired a psychic to help staff deal with the death of a colleague in the office. Former staff have reported him literally throwing stuff around like a child at his worst periods. He is the money brother, Dan is the ideas brother. This game is doomed without the Old Guard; Dan, Benz Lazlow. All you have to do is look at the state of GTA Online, the humor is fucking awful and so toothless as to not offend others that it's honestly sad.
>>724711865sure they're just hitman games but spy games do work
>>724720696>"uwu 36 is still a wittle babby ;33"I had a woman who was that age who lived in Japan but frequented business in Toronto and NY telling me that I was still "very young" at 27.
>>724712278Yes but he's also Jewish and got propped up by unknown investors.
>>724711865there are no bad vidya premises, only bad execution
>>724728727You're begging the question by claiming those games work.
>>724712790I used to always get tricked into playing this again and it sucked ass every time.
>>724713890Don't beat yourself up over it. Everyone works at a different pace. I've yet to meet anyone my age who has done what I've done professionally.
>>724763025specialize in pistols to become OP fast and treat the game as a cyoa visual novel
>>724713890Up until around 2010 it was quite easy to get a foot in the door.Now, for the exact same position, you need to have completed a masters degree in a STEM subject and most people are not 125 IQ to do it with ease (everyone can graduate college, but only a small minority can do it in time).So you are around 35 by the time to actually achieve anything some dude who was 25 20 years ago could do and was able to.
>>724716054>I don't think they've taken a real risk in over a decade though. RDR2 is a semi realistic cowboy simulator completely dependend on a US Western style narrative, if it weren't for the company name, that game wouldn't sell anything given that Western games typically do not make bank, hence why they barely exist, go on, aside from the three red dead games and Call of Juarez (which also didn't do big numbers), what western games are there and which are considered high successes? Western epics are extremely niche.
>>724743782>Idea: 2 games in 1.Simpsons Already Did It.>The mistake I think I made in Covert Action is actually having two games in there kind of competing with each other. There was kind of an action game where you break into a building and do all sorts of picking up clues and things like that, and then there was the story which involved a plot where you had to figure out who the mastermind was and the different roles and what cities they were in, and it was a kind of an involved mystery-type plot. >I think, individually, those each could have been good games. Together, they fought with each other. You would have this mystery that you were trying to solve, then you would be facing this action sequence, and you'd do this cool action thing, and you'd get on the building, and you'd say, "What was the mystery I was trying to solve?" Covert Action integrated a story and action poorly, because the action was actually too intense. In Pirates!, you would do a sword fight or a ship battle, and a minute or two later, you were kind of back on your way. In Covert Action, you'd spend ten minutes or so of real time in a mission, and by the time you got out of [the mission], you had no idea of what was going on in the world. > So I call it the "Covert Action Rule". Don't try to do too many games in one package. And that's actually done me a lot of good. You can look at the games I've done since Civilization, and there's always opportunities to throw in more stuff. When two units get together in Civilization and have a battle, why don't we drop out to a war game and spend ten minutes or so in duking out this battle? Well, the Covert Action Rule. Focus on what the game is.
>>724711865I thought it was John Danaher for a second
>>724739428>Dan Houser, Leslie Benzies, and Lazlownone of them are "developers", retard.
>>724719476Holy newfag.
>>724718313The critics of the first WD led to the total disasters that were the following games.I played all 3 and no, 2 isn't better despite the cucked woke diversity, WD2 has a pretty open world, so does Legion, so does every other Ubisoft open world game (I feel bad for their insanely talented artists), 2 has godawful gameplay for some reason and the hacking is as challenging as it is in WD1, the overall game is just complete trash with a pretty setting, WD Legion only has the Aiden Pierce DLC going for it, the main game in itself is also not very good, but at least the gameplay of some characters are fun.
>>724719786Why do it have to be open world? They aren't forced to do Open World, MP3 and Manhunt wasn't, so basically just do another one of these.
>>724711865Just because normies would hate it doesn't mean it wouldnt be a good spy game. There is no way you can do a good spy game without lots of reading, and thinking.What he's really saying is>We don't know how to make a commercial spy game.
>>724712278joe rogan might be low IQ but at least he's a good podcaster that talks about things he like while allowing guests to express themselvesfridman's podcasts are tedious to watch because 70% of the playtime is him asking questions in his monotone slavnigger voice at a snail's pace
>>724739428I remember it aswell (I'm 32, so only through gaming magazines I got my hands on), it looked kind of shit even back then, they called it a guaranteed flop, it looked like a Nintendo 64 game running on a PS2.And ye, in hindsight it wasn't a really good game, it kind of sucked as a racing game, it sucked hard as a shooting game, there are some things Urban Chaos for the PS1 did better.
>>724767139Legion gets tolerable of you're on PC and using the "operator editor" cheat table to completely create your own character from the ground up.
I think it just falls apart when you need the open world to be filled with Ubisoft chores. An open world detective game shouldn't really work either, but few people complain about LA Noire having an almost entirely superficial open world because it's still nice for immersion to know it's there. You need to make a game that works without filler.
>>724767403lex is for nerds who want a mildly interesting topic to be talked about calmly while they go to sleep
>spy game>you're some chad stealthy gun wielding bad ass instead of a boring unassuming dude who just goes about his day to day trying to blend in and make friends with the right people and social engineer situations where he can access classified info
>>724711865Splinter Cell PT + CT are a blueprint for how to make any spy game work. Rockstar are just grafix brained normalfaggot pandering slop workers. Anytime I hear about failed projects from big studios it's usually because the people doing it have ridiculous ideas unfounded in practicality or they themselves aren't the devs who work juice into the gameplay making everything feel tight solid thick so nothing they pitch tests well. Taste is a the great filter it doesn't matter how good a dev is if their sense of taste is terminally useless.
>>724712278He is industry plant carried by algorithm. All his manners and way of interactions are glowie tactics, literally. He most likely is backed by corporations.
