ITT: games that would never get released if they were made today.
>>724779848Yeah, because it was dogshit.
>>724779848True, it's too good for shitty AAA studios to pull off nowadays.
>>724779848why not? if anything I feel like subversive meta narrative games have only become more and more frequent since Spec Ops originally released.
>>724781402The collective reaction from gamers showed and still shows that the medium isn't ready for high art yet
>UGH MAN THIS GAME WAS JUST SOOOOOO CONTROVERSIAL THE WOKE LEFT WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT!get over yourself
radical centrist game
oh boy here we go
>>724779848Given that it was barely feature complete and had half of its story scrapped, it just would have been one of those "forever early access" titles.
>>724781679sotl and fnv show that gamers are barely sentient schizophrenicsplaying the other sex in fnv causes a troonout in first person, while sotl causes a mental breakdown.>protagonist with an established name and backstory that you're separate from by third person perspective ruins everything for everyone>the player who is credited as "SPECIAL GUEST" in the opening thinks its his faultclever story aside, the gameplay is rather mediocre.
>>724782217Less the woke left and more the corpos wanting something safe and marketable
>>724782343This is the level of media literacy they have to contend with
>>724782343Except having the player take responsibility was exactly the developers' intent. YOU'RE the one who missed the point. Dumbass.
Its amazing how much staying power this game has. People still seething about it like 15 years later.
>>724782413They already struggled with that at the time, I think they sold it to the higher-ups as just a military shooter with some physics gimmicks
>>724782492>just a military shooter with some physics gimmicksIt wasn't?
>>724782528It was those things, but calling it that might be considered a lie by omission
"Self-insert" discourse completely missed the point of Walker representing the player on a metaphorical, literary level. Walker represents the player in the same way Raiden does in MGS 2, not just as an avatar but by analogy through their respective circumstances.
>>724779848It wouldn't be made or released today because brown military shooters barely exist nowadays, while back in the day they dominated the market.If someone tried subversing expectations today, they'd probably make a game about loot boxes making you a gambling addict or something like that
>>724781679I think the reaction is probably to do with the fact that the game never really hit the Call of Duty audience, the audience that it was trying to be satire for. Funnily enough the only discussion of this game that I still see today is people on this board seething as a result of self inserting as Walker.
>want to make a le art game about players being le evil>can't be bothered to program branching storylines, that's too hard>just make a linear corridor shooter where bad things happen and pretend the player chose to do them>this SOMEHOW worksgamers truly are braindead cattle
>>724783073>the game never really hit the Call of Duty audiencehow would you know?
>>724783146>players being le evilYou didn't get it >branching storylinesYou really didn't get it>pretend the player chose to do themGenuinely too deep for you>gamers truly are braindead cattleHey, you said it
>>724783147it was considered a commercial failure and sold around 1/10th of your typical CoD installment.
>>724783286>You didn't get itSee >>724782432>You really didn't get itThe game's early previews in magazines had it advertised as a classic branching storyline affair. It was in vogue at the time. The devs missed several deadlines and the feature was cut.>Genuinely too deep for youNo, the game's just incomplete and the artistic intent falls apart because of it.
>>724779848No one sane would release a 4 hours long gears of war clone with multiple turret sections today, correct.
>spec ops is high art!t. someone who only considers oil paintings of naked olympians or generals to be 'art'
>>724783416>See >>724782432You see >>724782920 for just a glimpse of how far you're missing the point by.>the game's just incomplete and the artistic intent falls apart because of it.Filtered. Branching storylines would've completely ruined it and you don't understand this medium as well as you think.
>>724782432You posted a blurry yellow picture of some random book that doesn't even refer to sotl by name.I could respond with posting an excerpt of a biography by the famous pimp iceberg slim that also has the word "game" in it at some point.>>724782430Leftoid media literacy is>everything is an allegory for author endorsing my delusions or satire mocking my enemies, chudrightoid media literacy is>everything is an allegory for endorsing leftoid delusions and now I'm madthere's some wiggle room for AGP and schizophrenia>>724782920Not really, while raiden like the player, has experienced the MGS2 demo, MGS1 and maybe even vr missions, he eventually throws away the dogtags with presumably player's name dob and blood type on them.The player's gamertag/steam ID is created as "SPECIAL GUEST" in the opening, while controlling walker and making meaningless fluff choices for him, the player is a THIRD PERSON (perspective) observerWalker instead of calling in a report and getting the fuck out goes on a big hero quest that ends up killing everyone up to himself or his eventual rescue team.
>>724783605But SOtL is not an oil painting of Olympians or generals
basically any game made before ~2007
>>724783747my point is that gamers generally scoff at 'high art' but will call things like spec ops high art.
>>724783714>a blurry yellow picture of some random bookSignificant Zero by Walt Williams, the lead writer of Spec Ops, in which he directly discusses his experiences writing for video games, including, in fact Spec Ops. Hope that clears it up.Also, what's wrong with yellow?
>>724779848True. If the writer tried to pull of the embarrassing pseud meta shit today, he would get laughed out of the studio.
>>724783714>he eventually throws away the dogtags with presumably player's name dob and blood type on them.Yes, as a way of asserting control over his own life instead of trying to emulate the examples he was given - and promptly becomes unresponsive to some of the player's input, indicating a break between them.>the player is a THIRD PERSON (perspective) observerMGS2 is also played (primarily) in third person, this is meaningless as far as establishing the metaphorical relationship goes.
>>724783870Most "gamers" actually don't seem to appreciate this game at all (because it requires an appreciation of art)
>>724784029Most gamers don't appreciate this game because it sucks to play it. The pretentious, highfalutin story is of little consolation, even if you are into that kind of thing.
>>724779848Instead of generic cover shooters they make generic live service battle royals now, correct.
>>724784107this, the issue is that spec ops plays like the most generic low-effort cover shooter of the late 2000s. when you're trying to make a high art auteur game you cant sacrifice gameplay because at that point you may as well just make visual art.
>>724783691>how far you're missing the point byThe author outright states the point in his book. It can't be any clearer than that. You're the one missing it.>Branching storylines would've completely ruined it and you don't understand this medium I'm not the one who designed it to have a branching storyline. Who did, and did they understand the medium? Probably not, given their game failed on all fronts.
>>724779848I'm glad it exists. It's one of my favorite games of all time. It's not even that the concept requires a high IQ to appreciate, it just requires you to not be an overly-emotional retard.
>>724783714Raiden borrows the player's identity for the duration of MGS2, but gets rid of it at the end.>>724783886Well, I would've appreciated if it was a clear scan or a screenshot of a pdf with title and author visible, that being said, the game has failed because I am not Captain Martin Walker and I wasn't saved by Konrad in Kabul, I am not american and don't endorse zog, I am also not schizophrenic and capable of not only telling fiction and reality apart but also play (emphasize with or understand) different characters.>>724783983There's also first perspective which most modern military shooters utilize for arguably more immersion. MGS2 also utilizes preset camera angles rather than true TPPI think the way the game controls is a crucial part of the artform.
>>724784228funnily enough a large bunch of "auteur" games (Suda51, Taro, Ueda, just to name a few examples) all have middling gameplay. Kojima is actually an outlier here.
>>724784302>The author outright states the point in his bookIt's right in front of you in black and white and you're still not even understanding that you don't understand it. >Who didNo one did.
>>724784462Quit playing dumb. It's unconducive to a conversation.
>>724784329>the game has failed because I am not Captain Martin WalkerJesus Christ manAgain: "self insert" discourse has been a disaster for not just the discussion surrounding this game, but video games in general.
>>724784510Quit being dumb.
>>724784635Cool arguing with you, have a nice day.
>>724784812That's one way to interpret my admonition I suppose
>>724779848>"War bad"Wow, how profound.
>>724784228>the issue is that spec ops plays like the most generic low-effort cover shooter of the late 2000sIt's a perfectly decent core gameplay loop, which can also be challenging on higher difficulties. It's certainly far better than the default turn-based RPG battle system that a lot of "great writing" games utilize. People do shit on gameplay in games like Mother 3, but nobody say it disqualifies them from being considered great games, so I don't see why Spec Ops should be disqualified neither.
NIGGERS STINK LIKE SHIT
>>724784975>I don't see why Spec Ops should be disqualified neitherBecause it's a (wishful) critique of such gameplay. It is basically the very thing it attempts to criticise without any nuance or even the tiniest effort to differentiate itself. It is part of the problem it rages against.
>>724785201>It is part of the problem it rages against.It couldn't really pull of it's bait and switch if it wasn't.
>>724785201It does introduce small elements in throughout gameplay to show Walker deteriorating. His reload animations start getting sloppier, after a while he stops using military commands and just defaults to shouts and grunts like "fuck you", he starts having visions, which sometimes don't reappear on restarts. Yes, the core is still the same cover-based shooting, but there's a lot communicated through gameplay in nuanced ways to reinforce the game's themes. Me thinks you didn't play the game.
>>724785201The gameplay is just a straightforward example of the genre; if that's bad, that's the critique
>>724785376>bait and switchIf it was supposed to be a bait and switch, the press pack wouldn't have told the reviewers to jizz over the sUbVeRsIve story.If it was supposed to be a bait and switch, something would've changed after the switch.If it was supposed to be a bait and switch, there would have been a hidden option, something to trip up the player for having fallen into a template.No, the game's just a lazy cover shooter because that's all the studio was capable of putting out.
>>724784583The game has failed because apparently (>>724783921) the lead writer wanted me personally to feel responsible for what walker does in his delusional glory quest, this won't happen because it's fiction and not a documentary or a biographyI don't approve of what walker did and wouldn't do that in his place
>>724785514Cool, cool, but we're talking about gameplay.
>>724779848It was a game about the West committing genocide in the Middle East, why wouldn't it get made today?
>>724785672You were in his place and you did it. Then you just bitched about not having a choice. Which Walker also did.
>>724785776Nice cop out. Maybe actually play the games you so desperately want to criticize first, yeah? Reflexively shitting on anything that's acclaimed or popular and grasping at straws to do so is a bad look.
>>724785798Russia are the new bad guys (same as the old) and genocide in the Middle East has bipartisan support
>>724784975I've tried beating Spec Ops around 3 times, the first time was around its release as a clueless teenager. Every time I just get bored. Meanwhile, I beat both Earthbound and Mother 3 without any problem despite them being much longer.
>>724785903>Nice cop out.What cop out? Does any of the stuff you named, anything at all, change what the player does in the game? How the game plays? GAME. PLAYS?Fucking hell, you can't seriously believe that a slightly different reload animation constitutes a change in gameplay. Bet you play CoD and buy all the cosmetics too.
Predictions of exploiting a pandemic and secret societies aside, Warren Spectre stated that he would have not made this game today
>>724785862I wasn't in his place - I was playing a third person shooter.I made a contemplative grunt acknowledging the game's story at the end.
Gay pseud game with bad gunplay by an incompetent team of Swedes
>>724786050It's all elements of gameplay. Yes, I said the core is still the same, but to say it's exactly the same as every other cover-based shooter, when the game does a lot to reinforce its themes through gameplay is in bad faith. Maybe instead of resorting to an idiot's idea of a sophist with "OH I CANNOT BELIEVE OH MY GOD" you actually listen to what's being said instead of practicing selective hearing.
>>724786272You just had to say "made by swedes" and you wouldn't need to write anything else for me to understand.I legit think there is something wrong with swedish people, especially when it comes to games.
>>724786112I don't think that was an aside, that was the stated reason. The perception of conspiracy theorists went from harmless kooks on the fringes of society to violent fascists with a strong grip on mainstream politics.
>>724786172It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him.
>>724786346well fuck me sidewayswe're unironically never getting games as good as this then
>>724786302>the game does a lot to reinforce its themes through gameplay Name one example of such that's not purely cosmetic. Spoiler: there actually are some in the game, just not many, because the game was rushed out the door, cut in half, and generally unfinished.
>>724786019So if you didn't beat the game, why are you talking about it? I was bored to tears by Earthboud, but I at least made sure to beat it before I started criticizing it.
>>724786405>stronger than you colonel>kills his rescue team>mentlegen, welcome to dubai (chocolate labubu)Ludo scene asideThe lead writer should blow his brains out for coming up with such an evil tour, or at least seek psychiatric help for schizophrenia.
>>724786484Why are you destroying your own argument? Now you're saying it does things to differentiate itself, but earlier you said:>It is basically the very thing it attempts to criticise without any nuance or even the tiniest effort to differentiate itself. You've just admitted to me you're acting in bad faith. You're not interested in actually having an exchange of ideas. Why should anybody continue engaging with you?
>>724786565That's my only post in this thread. I personally wasn't criticizing the whole game, and spec ops does seem to have a somewhat interesting story. However, I still believe that I can criticize the core gameplay loop.
>>724787072Okay. I love you *mwah*
Killing brown people isn’t bad
>>724781402Because they'd have to fix that thing where gamers didn't do what the point they were trying to make, required. Otherwise it'd be called a cop-out and a failure in what it sets out to do, even more now that we have more games that have succeeded in what it attempted.Journos, too dumb to notice, would probably still praise it.
>>724787763This was such a weird position in hindsight.>NOOOOO NOT THE INNOVENT ARMED ARABS WHO ALWAYS SHOOT FIRST! PLEASE WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE MUSLIMS!!!!
>>724785862>"You're not walker"Walker sucks>"actually YOU'RE Walker"Sorry that, either your attempted meta-commentary failed, or that you fell so for a failed meta-commentary.
>>724784954You missed the more profound commentary, which is >"Game bad"
>>724788846Who are you quoting? Never mind media literacy, work on your actual literal literacy first.
>>724788336Unclear; rewrite
Game desperately wants to have its cake and eat it too, it's a sub Bogotá date third person cover shooter that really wants to browbeat the player about "Yeah, you enjoy all the carnage and killing don't you, video game violence is pervasive" as if it's the devs attempting to stroke their own ego for making such a "fun" shooter, but the truth is 90% of players muscle through a shitty third person cover shooter exclusively for the tweest, which undercuts the whole experience. That in conjunction with the cut sand mechanics, no alternate routes or way out, zero multiplayer, and tone deaf grandstanding that misunderstands the nature of CoD games that frequently communicate the horrors of war, makes the game feel like a mean spirited jab at poor people who may get this game on accident one random christmas instead of the new Call of Duty
>>724789310>Bogota dateWhat in the fuck is this autocorrect, Bogstandard*
>>724789310>cut sand mechanicsThis is still in the game >no alternate routes or way outThese are purposefully omitted >zero multiplayerIt still has working multiplayer today
>>7247798482011 games were way too based for their time. Can't get the same level of gore kino and trvth nvkes again. Everything has been nintendo-fied.
>>724779848What discourse around this game and Undertale's genocide route taught us is that trying to build immersion in an interactive narrative by utilizing meta elements to implicate the player in the bad actions of the protagonist doesn't work with some /v/irgins, because they get emotionally caught up in the game calling them bad instead, making whatever themes the game wants to explore from that perspective fly over their head.
>>724789184What it tried, ain't special no more.
>>724779848kino of this calibre CAN NOT be reproduced today...
>>724790326>because they get emotionally caught up in the game calling them bad insteadBecause that is what the game does, said as much by the author of the game.
>>724793537Yes, and it's a tool to pull you into the narrative. To put you in the shoes of the protagonist. To build a stronger connection and identity with them. But I don't know why, some /v/irgins have just have an allergic reaction to it. They cannot bear the fought of stepping into the shoes of someone like Walker. They cannot do what the game asks them to do, which is entertaining that thought. They need this barrier of separation, something differentiating them from the game narrative. Eroding those barriers induces panic and revulsion. I don't know what it speaks to, but it speaks to something. Nevertheless, I find this disposition unfortunate. Interactive media offers a unique avenue for immersive storytelling, but I suppose some stories are just too heavy for some people to get this immersed in.
>>724786112warren specter didn't predict that shit. all of the conspiracies in deus ex were just popular 80s conspiracies. do you think covid was the first pandemic?
>>724794570>They cannot bear the fought of stepping into the shoes of someone like Walker.But I am not stepping in their shoes. When the game taunts me via loading screens, Walker cannot see it. It's aimed directly at me. It's a type of meta approach that oversteps because it's not actually doing anything for the in-universe narrative, it's just pretentious winking at the player.
>>724795210It is a tool to build a stronger connection with the narrative. It's an interactive narrative, so you're doing the actions Walker does, and then meta elements are used to drive the point home, that Walker's actions are your actions. It's supposed to immerse you more, to build this stronger connection with the agent responsible for actions in the narrative, but you just get stuck on "the game called me bad, boo!" Which I find to be unfortunate. Some people maybe just cannot bear entertaining a narrative this grim that's asking for this level of immersion. But there's still value in it. It helps you discover what your boundaries are when it comes to immersion in interactive media.
>>724795872I have no problem with grim narratives at all. I have a problem with narratives breaking their own immersion by trying to implicate the player with guilt in a narrative that is 99% linear and the bad things would've happened anyway, and then trying to act high-brow about it.
>>724795967Damn could it be making a point about how you bear moral responsibility for your actions even if you'd like to blame circumstances
>>724795967>I have no problem with grim narratives at all.That's not what I said. My point is more nuanced: you have a problem with a narrative this grim asking for this level of immersion. You emotionally cannot bear it when meta elements are used to implicate you in the horrible actions taking place in a narrative. In your view it's a step too far as far as immersion goes. So you violently reject it and get angry at the game.
>>724786112>Releases today>Rightoids would call it woke propaganda because:>the terrorist want to get vaccinated>shows empathy towards marginalized people>criticizes authoritarian nationalism>is anti-capitalist>transhumanism elements therefore it's a tranny game>Musk fanboys would just cry 24/7 about how the devs are jealous of poor rich people.
>>724783605t. fart huffer who believes shit in a can is high art
>>724779848This only reason this game wouldn't release because the people barking orders at Walker isn't a fat BIPOC bitch
