How long does it take to level?Discuss your favorite MMOs.
What are you>Playing,>Watching,>Wondering about?
all the real content is at max level so an actually well designed mmo would have no levels. levels only serve to make it so you cant play with your friends
>>728898201Genius idea to throw people at the endgame when they don't know what their buttons do and how they play the game. You should work at a video game company!
>>728898201>30% of people make it past level 10.>10% of level 10s in Classic made it to level 60.>Characters per account is approximately 1.If you combine these, 3% of people make it to max.
>>728898406Blizzard already sells max levels.People can learn anything in a few hours. They'll just go BG or dungeon or target dummy or check sim rotations until they get it.
>>728898406>Starter endgame is hard, guys.LMAO.
Does Heroic difficulty still exist for dungeons?
>>728898406oh my god, he wants people to learn how to play the game??? how will people know how to press a hotbar button
>>728898406Dozens or hundreds of hours per character is not only ludicrous, everything can be done with gear and still have an organic progression (or a complete skip to endgame raiding if they can afford it).Allowing any player to play any class and profession actually gives players something to do in a living world instead of one where zones become obsolete every time you ding. No levels. Full gear trading. Material repairs durability. This is the living world you want. Fight me.
Kind of wild that the entire genre is built around making players wait 40-100 hours before they’re allowed to actually play together, and we just collectively decided that’s normal.
>>728902515Post-wow mmos were made for soloing while leveling. Pre-wow mmos often required grouping except at the lowest of levels or dependent on class: Necromancer in Everquest, BST in Final Fantasy 11, Mastermind in City of Villains, etc. There were MANY factors in World of Warcraft becoming a success early on, but the ability to conveniently level by yourself and using quests was one of them. Did quests, missions, or such exist in pre-WoW mmos? Yes, but not to soloing-friendly extent that Wow had. Also there is one major problem in mmos not unique to WoW: Gajillions of people want to play dps and only dps. And before you fuckheads say it, the holy trinity pre-wow was Tank, Healer, and Utility/Support. T/H/DPS wasn't a thing until enrage mechanics became popular in mmos.
>>728903035How did MMOs handle DPS? High DPS is contemporarily used to handle boss timers. What are the/some other options?
>>728903226>"Group/Raid needs dps!">Said No One Ever in pre-wow mmosBut basically there was DPS needed at some point to kill various bosses in raids, but the check was never high and there wasn't soft or hard enrages. Sometimes even in OG classic wow you wouldn't turn down extra healers early on. In groups you never needed superb dps. You wanted it of course, but you weren't going to sit there looking for the meta class and geared as fuck while slapping crabs on the beach at level 20.Pic not related. It embodied all the shit that sucked about Classic WoW and pre-wow mmos.
>>728897932posted it again award
>>728897932I’m sad about the mmo experience. Ashes is 100% some kind of scam and is horrific after ten years of development and everything else that’s came out lately is Korean p2w slop.
>>728903705They should re-release Wildstar with no leveling. I didn't get to experience max level, professions, maybe even group content. It would be easy to do and would make them money. They could even do F2P.
>>728897932my fav mmo was archeage everyone shits on after beta but it really died with the p2w thunder tree boxes about 2.5 months in. i could rant for hours on how it was a perfect game.IMO mmos fail for a few reasons ima rant for a bit. one big issue is the normal people playing feel like they can never catch up to 8 hour a day players and the 8 hour a day players run out of content to chase. only idea i have to fix this is having a soft cap in your game so everyone can do the content but there has to be a hardcap for tism players to chase besides just gold farming. then theres the is world feeling dead, games need to give a reason to go back to old zones and give high levels a reason to party/help with low levels. plus mmos need to have side content besides skill go up. ive played wow , aion , OSRS, tera, archeage , eve ,firefall, new world , loads of "f2p" like dragons nest , perfect world, bless online and vindictus. theres things id take from all of them and put into one mmo.atm i found this https://store.steampowered.com/app/2506440/Trolddom/ and im having a blast, 2d classic wow vibes
EVE online will and forever will be the best and most unique MMO ever created
>>728898201> an actually well designed mmo would have no levels.nobody who has played MMOs has ever said this. your average player is already a drooling inbred retard, the last thing we need is newbies ruining your dungeon run because it's their tutorial to the fucking game.
I'm sick of the old tab target holy trinity formula, man I hope the next Archeage is good.
>>728898201>all the real content is at max level so an actually well designed mmo would have no levels.this exists and it's called eve online
>>728904596The next iteration of MMOs will likely follow a precedent set by standard RPG games like it has in the past.
>>728904145its hard to make friends in that game>>728904596its not a mmo/sandbox anymore, i really wanted ashes to succeed, but looked at the steam release and its still the same shit from years ago but with a working cash shop zzz
>>728904848>its not a mmo/sandbox anymoreGood, sandbox is just codeword for thousands of hours of pointless grinding.
>>728903842>Ashes.Somebody tell me about it. I think it has everything I want but no leveling. I'm not sure people will be able to deal with dozens or hundreds of hours of leveling, zones becoming obsolete, friends not being able to play together, etc. At least it has materials durability and regional trading.
>>728904145>>728904604EVE has 24 years or $6.5k of leveling per character. You can barely do anything for a long time, maybe a long long time. People should be able to do anything at the start. That's what people want and is one of the only things holding the game back. (Everybody has level 5s.) The Slicer is a 3D Diablo 3 hyperjet. It's really fun. I've had dreams about it.
>>728905103did you even like/play archeage? going on the ocean and making your own content was the best part of the game
>>728905606I played it a bit but I didn't get into it, I'm excited for the next Archage because it is nothing like the original.
>>728904173> >>728898659.
728905753so you're a retard in mmo thread that hates mmos, not even worth the (you)
>>728898201>all the real content is at max level so an actually well designed mmo would have no levelsYou need to have some time leveling the character and getting new skills a few at a time, classic wow had it perfectly, because leveling takes months and you can actually master every spell, while in modern wow you can level from 1 to 70 in like 10 hours of actual playtime, specially now that they made the dragonflight zone the new leveling zone.
>>728905975I spent a large part of my life playing them and now I'm sick of them. I still like the many players / community aspects of them but the rest of it needs a new coat of paint for me to care. That's why games like Archeage Chronicles and Chrono Odyssey are so interesting to me.
>>728906128dont need levels for that. only reason anyone likes levels is because they enjoy the skinner box more than the game
>>728905103A sandbox means actually having things to do. Gathering, crafting, and trading get people in the world, allow players to meet, socialize, and depend on each other, and support one of the most, if not only, important designs (material repairs). Emergent content and replayability are the most important aspects of an MMO.Community is a game design problem. Things to do is one of the most listed reasons for retention.
>>728906302>gatheringgrind>craftinggrind>tradinggrindI just wanna go on epic adventures and slay dragons / players with the friends I meet along the way, not work a day job.
>>728906421You want a singleplayer game.
>>728906421The mistake there is equating “optional economic loops” with “mandatory labor.”In a sandbox, you don’t have to gather, craft, or trade -- other players do that for you. That’s the whole point of specialization. If you want to log in, group up, and kill dragons or players, you buy gear, hire crafters, pay repair costs, and go. Someone else enjoys being the blacksmith. Someone else enjoys running caravans. You’re not clocking in; you’re participating in a world.Right now WoW forces everyone into the same grind: leveling, ilvl treadmills, weekly chores. That’s the real day job. A player economy turns grind into voluntary roles, not universal busywork.Epic adventures only feel epic when there’s a world behind them. If nothing breaks, nothing is lost, and nothing is made by players, you’re not on an adventure -- you’re in a lobby with a dragon skin.
>>728906421Monster Hunt... wait there's parts grinding. Zenny too depending. More grinding in other ways too in older games.
>>728906128months suck, classic wow worked back then since the internet was smaller. imo if classic wow was rested xp levels as a perma buff it would feel way better.>>728906421instead of changing mmos for worse why not go play other rpgs with your friends, you see normal gameplay goals a grinds. in Archeage, setting up a home for trade pack runs was comfy af or doing warzone pvp while waiting for your jury duty to send some retard to jail. it ofc had its tism grinds but you didnt have to engage in them if you didnt want.>>728906686this is the kind of game they want but want to start in full los armor and not craft any armor/weapons just get it after beating a monster.
>>728898551Notice how every defense of leveling eventually boils down to "it helps new players not quit", while the actual numbers show most players quit during leveling.
>>728907061leveling gatekeeps faggots like you from playing my game. if you cant be assed to play the game for a few weeks i dont want you in my group anyways.
>>728906650>you buy gear, hire crafters, pay repair costsThen how do you get the money so you can do these things?>grindRight.There is always a grind, I'd rather level and see the world than participating in some shitty player driven economy full of bots and RMT.
>midnight login screen is goatseBruh
>>728907120You don't like MMO RPGs, fantasy-meets-reality, or roleplay.
>>728907156>Then how do you get the money so you can do these things?Quest. You can do anything in a gear economy that you can do with leveling (but without forcing player separation and the obsoletion of 90% of the world).All that other shit you said doesn't hold weight. Bots and RMT already exist. A player economy is balanced by actually having things to do / a living world. You don’t prevent theft by building an empty house; that just makes the house not worth living in.
>>728898201Serious question: If WoW launched today with no leveling and only endgame systems, would anyone argue it needs leveling added?
>>728898201I like that your conclusion isn't to add "real content" to lower level ranges but to just get rid of the leveling process outright.
>>728904145I miss that old eve art so much
>>728907712I guess it depends on what the quests are and how many of them you have to do in order to in order to make enough cash to purchase your equipment, it can very easily turn into another form of grinding.It's hard to visualize what the economy would look like and how players will remain engaged with it. Runescape has an economy like this but it also has a very grindy leveling system to keep players hooked on the number go up and slowly unlocking new activities as they progress. If you took away the leveling entirely and only had player crafted gear then the supply would quickly outgrow the demand causing everything to become very cheap, when everyone has the best stuff the point of playing the economy is gone. You'd have to make materials excedingly rare or destroy items very quickly in order for the economy work, the more players there are the more expensive everything would become. It would definitely become a huge grind to do pretty much anything.
>but the leveling process means you can't play with your friendsOh my god nigga did Metzen hold a gun to your head and say you can't group up with your homie 10 levels lower than you? Like you have anything better to do in fucking WoW? Go help your fucking bro out and fuck around, maybe gank some fags on the other faction if its a pvp server. Joyless fucking troglodytes.
>>728908656You're saying two different things, that items would be really cheap, and that items would be really expensive. The only thing I'm getting from your post is "it can be done right". The point still stands that themeparks have nothing to do, and sandboxes do.
>>728908764IIRC, you can't group up with much higher levels without an XP penalty.Either way, leveling is making WoW have extremely low retention.
>>728908976If that's all you got from it you didn't read it well enough
>>728909224"Everything is grinding."No, it's not.
>>7288985513% of characters*
>>728909091XP penalty only affected mob exp and if you were helping your bro with quests the speed you cleared made up for that for him.
>>728909403What I'm essentially saying is that the Runescape economy works because you have the leveling aspect of the game to promote the trade of goods and keep the economy going, leveling destroys items as you level up and you need to buy new items. Removing leveling means there will be even more pressure on the few systems that remain to regulate the market, the grindy part of leveling wouldn't simply go away, it would transition into gathering, crafting, monster slaying etc. You would need a way to destroy items so they can't be resold, this feels exceedingly bad as you'll just have to grind more to get them back. When the whole purpose of your game is to keep a player-driven economy going it has to be grindy as hell, there is no way around it.
>>728909595Again, characters per account is approximately 1.
>>728898201Endgame systems are a mistake and mmos should focus entirely on making a cool world
>>728909805Approximately nobody likes leveling. It's shown in the statistics. If everybody loved leveling, WoW wouldn't have lost subs for a decade. Economy isn't grinding, because you don't have to do it; leveling is grinding (for no actual purpose), because you do.
>>728898201What would Minecraft even be if you kept your inventory on death and tools never broke? You’d "finish" it in a weekend.
>>728910072This is only true if you have other systems to engage with other than the economy, in WoW's case interacting with the economy is optional because you progress by leveling up and getting gear from monsters, not players. If it's all supposed to happen through the economy then you're forced to interact with it, and the devs have to make sure that it doesn't crash and ruin the game. The way you do that is, you guessed it, GRIND.
>>728910541The literal only difference is that you don't *have* to grind in a sandbox. You pick what you like to do (economy, PvE, PvP) and have fun.
>>728898201leveling should be for individual skills only
>>728910519that would be equivalent to a full loot mmo and its great
>>728910692Shutting your ears and repeating that doesn't make it true, explain why you think it works like that.
>>728911097"Everything is grind" is simply "I don't want to play a video game".
>>728911530You're basically admitting that I'm right by saying that, there is no way around the grind but it's ok because "grind is good" according to you. That's fine.
>>728911891You're still calling everything a grind. Argument to absurdity is a logical fallacy.
>>728912035So by saying there is no such thing as grind it will simply go away and every game will be fun no matter how much mundane and boring time-consuming work you have to do? Amazing, problem solved.
>>728912302>So by saying there is no such thing as grindI didn't say that.
>>728912378You might as well have, your threshold when an activity constitutes grind is so high that it doesn't seem to exist within the realm of video games.
>>728898201What's the "real content"? Grinding for rainbow gear until the next expansion so you can access the grind for the next level cap?>people pay a monthly sub + expacs + in-game purchase exclusives + tip for this shit gameplay cycleI swear ya'll niggas would make fun of your granny's facebook church group while "playing" and "socializing" on this type of cancer, and there are a gorillion breeds of this same dogshit, not just WoW.
>>728913012Literally, quote something.
>>728897932There was an MMORPG I tried to get a discussion going about a few times. It turns out I was probably the only one on the board that played it. It was a mix between Hellraiser, World of Warcraft, and Silent Hill. It was called Requiem: Bloodymare. It's probably dead now, or at the very least, on life support. One of the reasons is because the leveling system was one of the most obscurely retarded things i'd ever seen. You reach a point where you need 1 billion exp to level, and each monster you killed would give around 2k experience.The game was fascinating, the atmosphere was great, the monster designs were amazing, but it was doomed from the start.
>>728897932every time I see someone defending World of warcraft, I leave them with this, and they tend to shut up.
>>728913414You're saying I call everything a grind even though I'm talking about things that are generally considered grindy, even runescape players know they're grindy, that's why they play it.
Why are people so scared of being low level anyways?>I need to be max levelTo do what exactly? Some of my fondest MMO memories were questing and leveling, raiding always ended up turning into a job.
>>728913571Is that a human torso protruding from an asshole?
>>728913835I already know how to play the game and don't need another 100 hour tutorial, leveling once should be enough. Add a class change button and put a 30 day cooldown on it or something.
>>728913739The argument is still "leveling is grinding because you have to do it (not to mention all the problems like separating players and obsoleting content); with sandboxing, you don't".
>>728914020Leveling is only grindy if you have to spend a disproportionate amount of time performing mundane and/or unrewarding activities. If you can have a good time going through engaging quests and activities with friends or strangers then it isn't a grind.Every sandbox MMO I've played have typically been a lot more grindy than themeparks and they all have leveling in one form or another, whether that's the destiny board in Albion or the skill system in Ultima Online.
>>728914648>Dozens of hundreds of hours being segregated from other players and obsoleting 90% of the world, meaninglessly (you can't trade XP), isn't grinding.I don't think you have an argument for leveling, when everything can be done with equipment.
>>728914803>Dozens of hundredsDozens or hundreds*.
>haven't played WoW since DF ended>best friend got his wife to play, now trying to get me to come back so we could have a full dungeon team after he got two other friends playing againShould I do it bros?Give in to peer pressure?The housing does look neat....
>>728915080If you like that kind of thing, its not bad. You can apparently be pretty creative with it.
>>728915080its shit,
>>728915306Well it IS WoW, it will always be shit, but I have shit taste and a high tolerance for shit games.
>>728915080Don't do it. The housing addition had a leak, there is a unique currency that will be required to purchase some housing items. People are speculating more microtransactions.See >>728913653World of warcraft has not improved over time.
>>728915080Yeah? You don't need to take it too seriously, it's just a medium for you to hang out with your friends
>>728915547>>728915304I agree! WoW has some downsides, but it's so much fun! lol!By the way, do you know when we get our check from Blizzard?
>>728904173>your average player is already a drooling inbred retard, the last thing we need is newbies ruining your dungeon run because it's their tutorial to the fucking game.We already have them, the spicsHues who don't even know how to play the game will get into your runs and ninja your loot
If you're craving a wow experience, I know where you can go.
This game literally solved every single issue talked about itt yet nobody ever talks about it
>>728913835Same, combat rarely is that fun or good in mmos, and once you overlevel enemies just become weaker even more.Game has to capture me with spectacle, quests, not annoying grind shit.
>>728898406Nice try, retard. The only "people" still playing this game are the turbo autists that have been playing since Vanilla. If they don't know the buttons at this stage, they should be executed.
>>728903910wildstar ha been gone longer than it was alive at this point
When is maplestory classic coming out?
>>728915814I love puzzle pirates and I will never forgive this shitpile dipshit dev for not porting it to phones. What a free fucking win completely squandered.
>>728915814I remember being a retarded kid doing freelance pirate work playing the bilging game because it was the only one I was good at, getting paid after raiding a ship then playing blackjack afterwards. What a time.
How did the French manage to make GOTY and the best MMORPG of 2025?
>>728917381Is this lezdom rape porn?
Play Ragnarok Online.
>>728915080If your friend is playing you will probably have a good time.
>>728915697pvp server is dead
