Why are video games still considered children's toys instead of art?
20 years of advertising it as such
>>728926482art isn't interactive, toys are
>>728926612This, so much this!
>>728926684you sound like you're being sarcastic but your image is of people playing with children's toys. care to extrapolate for my autistic ass?
>>728926834It's okay, I have faith that a mature individual such as yourself can figure it out.
>>728926482Because gaymers are childish and respond negatively to artsy games.
>>728926684This is the kind of "art" that rightards make fun of on regular basis. You're reinforcing his point.
>>728926482Most of these so called adults shove dildos up their asses I could give a fuck what they think
>>728929171Oh no! the picture fixed itself it was supposed to be sideways, darn
>>728926612Why?
>>728926482funny how vidya was supposed to become gesamtkunstwerk to end all arts but is already dead thanks to jews and AI. The whole thing lasted barely 50 years, not even a footnote in history
>>728926482the biggest misconception isn't that games are toys (it's an incomplete but not inaccurate statement). it's that movies and TV are art first and foremost. both games and movies/TV are primarily "entertainment" which is a kind of low brow art. and games are also toys, which does not contradict their status as low brow art.high brow art is not synonymous with quality by the way. in fact it's usually bad whereas most low brow art is at least serviceable. entertainment has to attract masses of customers, whereas high brow art exists in a money laundering, tax evading bubble where quality doesn't matter in the slightest. it's an exclusive club and quality is not one of the factors for getting in or being cast out.
>>728929593Lmao you have no idea what actual "high brow" art is like if movies and tv are your go-to example
>>728926482E33 is already considered art by many
>>728929801that is the opposite of what I said. learn to read.
>WHAT DID HE SEE?
>>728926482Cause it's a new hobby that was aimed exclusively at children for a decade - things changed, the attitude stayed. I mean, games are still toys, some are elevated to a form of art, but they're not just for kids anymore - the 1st generation grew up, the hobby remained.Games are toys for kids AND adults. I mean, some people become literal millionaires by playing games, they're not just toys ... is a basketball a children's toy? Tell that to Michael Jordan.
>>728929858I did misread you, yes, due to the completely unwarranted attempt at setting movies and tv apart from video games before lumping them back together. "Art furst and foremost" - except they are entertainment, like video games, which is to be contrasted with art.Your post is a confused mess.
>>728926482It depends on the game.Super Mario 64 is art. Planescape Torment is art. Fifa isn't art.
>>728926482Video Games are they are made are artVideo Games as they are interacted with is a toy, a pastime.
>>728926482Dopamine receptor tickling. It's like how you could make artsy pornos but probably won't. Satisfying primal urges always stays in the front of your mind.
>>728926612Fuck off. Even a museum is an interactive experience. A ton of plays break the 4th wall and include the audience.Even music can include the audience. And even then all art is interactive as each audience member takes its own interpretation. This is the absolute shitiest take.I'd be more tolerant that it's a very recent artform and it's growing at the peak of capitalism where the focus is more o product than it is on the piece. Even movies were at a time just funny gimmicks to play at fairs
>>728926612Arbitrary and wrong
>>728926482Does he know what he was cooking?
>>728930119Yes, going to a museum is also not in itself an artform, but all art is fundamentally interactive in that it is always mediated by an audience's subjective interpretation
>>728930303>interactive in that it is always mediated by an audience's subjective interpretationExactly
>>728926482because gamers are children
>>728930119So Crime and Punishment is art as a book, but when you read it it's a pastime?
>>728930303In a museum the display order is taken heavily into account, there is a planner and the space can be heavily costumized, it isn't just panting A to B to C. And the viewer can still choose some of the order, even go back, and how much time and attention to each piece, that can heavily influence what are his final impressions of the whole thing.
>>728926482Because of Americans and the way they decided it was best to market games.Japan had been using media to deal with adult themes since the early 1980s.Games featuring rape, explicit sex, murder, gore, conspiracies, black magic, etc., were already common in the early days of gaming in Japan, especially on PCs, which makes the idea of Americans "revolutionizing" games by making them adult-oriented because they put blood in Mortal Kombat or Doom kind of laughable, actually.
>>728930868Sure, in the 90s. Go look at Japan games now and it's even worst than americans
>>728930183I'd like to add: the process of making games is a mess and most creatives would rather have full control over the final experience.
>>728929960>Cause it's a new hobby that was aimed exclusively at children for a decadeNothing could be further from the truth. The guys creating text adventures for PCs before there was enough processing power for graphics weren't thinking about children. The Japanese creating a whole new form of entertainment in arcades weren't thinking about children. The history of video games has never been focused on children. What happened was that the United States specifically marketed the first consoles as toys for children, but the way Americans marketed Pong, Ataris 2600, and other pieces of shit should not be confused with the true history of the medium, which is about video games, not hardware and marketing schemes.
>>728930868The NES was a revolution when it came to selling games in toy stores
>>728930868I feel thats mostly on animation, like the difference between adult animes and "adult" cartoons is abysmal, you have Bojack Horseman that's the exception (i guess at least, didn't watch it), but then you have fucking Evangelion vs Family Guy
>>728926482Why do you care?
>>728931151Not OP but i care because i love specific games that are made with care and ambition, and i don't want them to be taken less seriously than they deserve. I don't have problems with what people think i do in my free time, if a play with a game that's meant to be a toy that's fine and im not pretending its more noble that it actually is.
>>728926482The problem is gamers.Games are incapable of broaching serious topics of discussion without the gaming community getting overwhelmingly mad. These opinions do end up filtering down (or up) to people who have different hobbies and they rightfully view gamers as kids.An example is that you could never include rape or sexual assault in a game. Even if it is totally unsexualized and shown to be abhorrent everyone would just cry and whine and bitch and say it doesn't belong in games, and that means games will never be art. If certain topics cannot be broached in games then they are nothing more than entertainment software.
>>728931521>If certain topics cannot be broached in games then they are nothing more than entertainment softwareThat's the reason im glad indies exist
It's neither art nor a toy, it's something in between hence why this discussion has been going on for so long without an answer. A game is an unfinished piece that is left to the player to finish it, and this collaboration between the game designer and the player allows tha latter to create his own storytelling about the piece. Other art forms make the person feel something, a game makes the person build towards feeling something.
>>728931521There are definitely games with themes about rape or sexual assault thoughReal question is why are you fixated on this particular theme as an alleged benchmark for artfulness
>>728931637That's really all media when you think about it
Why do "people" like op (read: faggots) think that things children are meant to engage with aren't supposed to be artful and crafted with skill? You know we had about 7000 years of toys being made for kids to enjoy and grow with, not just to strike a profit on rotting their dopamine receptors, right?
>>728932087Loneliness is the answer, your welcomealso OP huffs used didlos
>>728926482It's weird to me that a ton of western studios try to copy arthouse movies, of all things.
>>728933449Examples?
>>728934775>Remedy>Naughty Dog>Hazelight>Sucker Punch>Kepler>Compulsion>Kojima (sort of)>Square Enix (chasing western trends)>Bandai Namco, that one time>Like 50% of indie studios
By whom? Stop parroting what the item bounce people tell you.
>>728926482Evan mature games like GTA are for babies
>>728931521i think this is more or less a modern problemzoomers are becoming more and more puritian everyday it's insanethese kids say shit you'd expect from a 80 year grandma who believes Mickey mouse is the antichrist
>>728931938Rape is the example I used because it is the most extreme and clearest cut one. Yes, you and I could debate on if video games need to include more tax evasion or not. However, rape and sexual assault are also relevant because one of the most famous and biggest indie games ever made changed a scene post release because it was either implied rape or accidentally implied it and there was massive outrage.I am not the weirdo who makes "WHY CAN'T I RAPE IN FANTASY GAMES???" The MC should never be raping anyone, no one wants to play as a rapist. I am more referring to stuff like the Tomb Raider reboot. They tried to include a scene of the most tame, lame, unoffensive attempted assault ever and there was just a massive outcry only dulled by the fact that people were less plugged into social issues like they are now. It would be even worse if they did that scene today, and literally nothing happened to Laura other than she kicked the guy's ass after he tried to pull up her shirt.
>>728926482Well? What did he see?
>>728936968Okay but for example CP2077 deals quite prominently with rape and no one complained, so maybe it's more about how it's handled?
>>728935334Dunno, most of these wouldn't be considered art house by pre-marvel standards. A lot of emphasis on spectacle and melodrama.
>>728931521How do you even include rape in a way that suits the medium? That's the bigger problem.
>>728937796>chase her like the bunny in mario 64>button mashing quick time event>thrusting rhythm gameNow THAT is what I call art. Puritan zoomers will say it's not in good taste.
>>728937460The way it was handled in Deltarune was totally fine though. I also don't know if enough people even played CP2077 up until the pleasure doll stuff which is the only sexual assault related stuff I can think of. I guess Adam Smasher also says something.
>>728926482Because they're not an art outside of exceptions where devs had all freedoms and no censorship.
>>728926482Games are considered art by people below a certain age. They're considered toys by people above a certain age. Once the people in the latter group die or grow too old for their opinions to matter, things will change. One day, you will see grandparents willingly playing videogames with their grandkids.
>>728937796It is a story element, anon. Background. Character motivation. Personal quest. Even mentioned as a way to add a dreadful realism to the setting.Example: Conquering army is shown assaulting women. Not nude, of course, but a woman being grabbed by the arm and forced into some alleyway, or even just a few guys slowly approaching a cowering woman would absolutely make it clear what is going on without having a full on rape scene. The point is to make the danger seem real. The enemy seem realistically evil, etc.It is sort of like that meme people post where it is like "Hitler may have started WW2 and killed a bunch of people, but he'd never do a heckin' slur!" It just feels like you don't take the medium seriously (not you literally, I mean you figuratively).
>>728935858Bait
>>728938656AAA games have censorship and devs are limited, otherwise i think a lot of games are pure in this
>>728935858Correct except you forgot the quotation marks when saying "mature"
>>728926482Noone has made any serious effort into laying the groundwork theory for what makes the essence of a videogame (aka the rules, the mechanics) actually good as art. There are some heuristics and known pitfalls sure but theres no equivalent to say film theory. So videogames are art, but 99% of them are just shitty multimedia entertainment products. They arent taken seriously as art because very, very few people, people both in the industry and consumers who are games main demographic, even understand the essence of the game as art, and if they do it may only be a subconcsious understanding. I mean look at all the GDC talks of the last however many years. They all sound like they are more interested in topics adjacent to the casino industry than the film industry.I think they only way through that is for a general revolution in video game design. I'm talking walking back to games the same scale as tetris and chess. We shouldnt be making anything more complicated than that when we have no underlying theory or study into what makes games like them as good as they are.
>>728926612>art isn't interactive, toys arehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_art
>>728931938>Real question is why are you fixated on this particular theme as an alleged benchmark for artfulnessIn RPG 18+ games with freedom where you can play as evil character you can kill, torture man and be evil but you never able to rape, torture women (in settings with equality) or even have sex. But all this can happen in actual adult artistic media where even main characters can be anti-heroes. Sex, romance are another big problematic topics for video games when they're just a norm IRL and in art. Video games are just toys. Even epic le mature games like Witcher designed to pander to children to maximize profits. If anything eroge are art because they are scared away to handle dark themes.
>>728926482if you give a jumping rope to a child it becomes a toy, if you give it to an adult it becomes a fitness tool. same with videogames, but the huge problem with videogames is that they are meant for manchildren so they became toys to the eyes of the world. the video game industry took the wrong turn during their evolution, they could have evolved to become a more adult entertainment but ended going for the easy money toy route and that's why games like COD have spongebob skins
>>728926612Playing music isn't art
>>728938692This is a good point but it shifts the focus to a different problem: games benefit from having simplistic good vs evil stories to justify the fact you're going on a large scale killing spree. In a way it's a camera problem, you have to move forward going on a rampage because you can't see what's behind you at all times. Puzzle/dialogue driven games are the way to fix it but those will never get the mainstream on board.
>>728939480>but ended going for the easy money toy route and that's why games like COD have spongebob skinsOh yeah that's where it went wrong. Call of Duty used to be high brow.
>>728926482cuz they're shat out and consumed as such. vidya can't be art if its all about chasing the newest frames per second and HHHHHHD gwafics
>>728939809>>728940708I feel like going on a tangent. At least Call of Duty now knows what it is: a game for children. Old Call of Duty was one of the worst trends ever in gaming. It was a symptom of angry teenagers who were desperate to be taken seriously. It made an entire generation of sheltered obese children delusional about what war is like. Back in the day there were kids using the term "realistic" to describe Call of Duty. I hope they're dead now.
>>728941984Meant for >>728939480
>>728939809>>728941984CoD isn't really aimed at children tho. It's for paying adults and children as bonus: ultimate combo and the key behind game's popularity.
>>728926482not even gamers think they're artlook at how often they call remakes that change everything direct upgrades that make the originals obsolete
>>728942916I know, I was shit talking CoD as aggressively as possible. My broader point is that Call of Duty never took a wrong turn and neither did the rest of the industry.
>>728943686Meant for >>728942350God I'm retarded
