Convenience is the death of vidya soulSearch your feelings, you know it to be true
Almost all soulful games and vidya details have an element of inconvenience to them, whereas all the soulless ones are easily accessible and graspableTry it, name a time a game has made something more convenient and you'll have named a tiny soul death
>>729004423In this case it's just trying to make a bad genre (open world) good. I can't say that fast travel is any better or worse than walking through an open world. The real death is removing the abstraction and trying to make everything realistic, like a fully detailed open world
>>729004423funny how you use morrowind for your example when the literal main quest gives incorrect directions to the dwemer ruin.
>>729004839Fuck that fucking puzzle box
>>729004423Only correct insofar that meaningless inconvenience is also soulless. FOMO/second job grinding for example, is meaningless inconvenience at best, and psychologically predatory anti-soul at worst.
>>729004920ive probably done the MQ about 5 times and i still get lost in that fucking dwemer hellhole.
>>729004423Inconvenience and friction is what makes games into games and not brainless sandboxes. Retarded normalfags actually hate having to make choices and their actions having long-term consequences, they want to play around in a sandbox while a number goes up so it feels like they're accomplishing something.
>>729004423Aye but there's a fine line between challenge and annoyance, one that vidya treads too often.
>>729004423Convenience will be the death of everythingConvenient truths Convenient liesConvenient copesIt's been all downhill since this age and there's nothing stopping it
>>729004423some vidyas still have soul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXZtVoQ0gqs
>>729004423That's nonsense spouted by retarded tech illiterate third worlders who spout meaningless platitudes about game dev like "limitation breeds creativity" because they want to make generalized complains about modern games without actually understand art or tech, and despite not actually playing modern or old games.
>>729008903>convenience is the death of vidya soul>limitation breeds creativityBoth of these statements are correct, tho'.>without actually understand art or tech, and despite not actually playing modern or old gamesBizarre projection.
>>729009239>Both of these statements are correct, tho'.Shut up, retarded turd worlder. QoL features are a good thing and I've been playing vidya longer than you.
>>729009448I don't care what a retard like yourself thinks. Video game design is not a means an end, it's not about ease of use towards some ulterior thing, the design itself is the art and it should contain friction and conflict the same way any good art does.
>>729009664>I don't care what a retard like yourself thinks.And no one cares what tech and art illiterate third worlders who speak in completely meaningless, hollow generalizations about game design think. Your words are objectively worthless. You don't understand any of the things you're opining on, and you will never create anything yourself.
When Morrowind came out, everyone was mad that global fast travel was removed and replaced with taxi points, and now zoomers praise it for "soul" or whatever.
>>729004423Terraria
>>729009772>You don't understand any of the things you're opining on, and you will never create anything yourself.Again with the weird projection. I don't feel the need to address your spergy venting, go see a therapist or something.
>>729010103Daggerfall is just a fast travel simulator with dungeon crawling in between that broThat was my huge gripe about that one and mods don't help that much
>>729010103There is no such thing as "everyone"
>>729010103Daggerfall had global fast travel because its map was the size of Great Britain you goddamn retard
>>729004423"Convenience == bad" is a bit of a shallow take, the issue is developers not understanding non-obvious, non-"core" parts of the gameplay, especially those without immediate reward/punishment (such as combat or platforming). In DS1 when you meet a vendor you need to carefully look through their items and consider whether you actually need something, if you don't - you might get punished. In other souls games this kind of test of attention and foresight is not possible due to the ability to fast travel everywhere relevant.Convenience is not bad on it's own, but parts of the gameplay not acknowledged as such by developer frequently gets butchered by them with this word as an excuse.
>>729004423It's insane to me that no open world game since Morrowind has bothered implementing fast travel in a way that feels natural to the game world. Learning routes is actually good. Silt striders have their own routes and can only go to certain areas just like the boats the Mages Guild. It forces you to learn the game world to a certain extent outside of just looking at it. PLANNING out your route adds that little bit of soul to the adventure you're about to take. Yet every single open world game since then does the dogshit "open the menu and magically teleport anywhere".
>>729004639>The real death is removing the abstraction and trying to make everything realistic, like a fully detailed open worldThis. Playing old RPGs where you're walking on a world map vs a modern RPG where the entire world is all reachable within 5 minutes with no abstraction really takes you out of the immersion.
>>729004423>>729004463QoL culture is a cancerous tumour spreading throughout gaming. I understand why devs hate mods and don't want their games to be moddable now.
>>729010834When did "cheats" get renamed to "QoL?"
>>729010941I first came aware of it when /tg/station added the QoL label for their github PR changelogs and they were mostly used for balance changes to avoid any form of friction. I knew at that point /tg/station was about to fall.
>>729010348>Again with the weird projection.There's no projection, that's just me summing up what you are because your type is easy to spot here. If you'd like to prove otherwise, feel free to post a folderpath containing art you've made or assets you're to make a game to prove with this kind of stuff. Even a folder showing modding tools or something. And remember, if you're angry and feel called out enough to reply then saying "I don't have to prove anything" doesn't work because it's obvious you're upset and want to argue but just can't post proof.
>>729004423i use teleport to cell and noclip to get around morrowind's gay terrain honestly
>>729012164sure but its safe to assume you've played enough Morrowind vanilla to already know what you would be missing.the whole convenience angle itt is about gameplay design that will have you miss out on parts of the game from the get go out of fear of losing that current goal post of 'flow state'
>>729004423So poor mechanics are the key to soul?No wonder nobody likes games with soul.
>>729004423convenience is a good thing assuming it aids engagement in the actual gameplayfast travelling in morrowind is just bypassing gameplay for minimal cost so I agree it sucks, but making games easier to interface with so you can engage with the actual good design is always a good thing
>>729012985What are your thoughts on the image in >>729004463
>>729011459You sound like a modder who thinks their contributions are an integral part to Bethesdas success.If so impress me by saving Starfield. Until then shut your fucking mouth.
>>729013042functionally identical as pokemarts and and pokecenters are almost always in the same "safe area" towns, so it saves time to get to the actual gameplay.That's a good convenience, like how in older RPGs the town screen is entirely navigated through a menu
>>729013060>You sound like a modder who thinks their contributions are an integral part to Bethesdas success.Swing and a miss. I also noticed you replied without posting any proof that you have any fucking idea what you're talking about. You are categorically an ignorant retard with nothing of worth to say on the subject of game design.
>>729013195I judge thee..soulless.
>Your journey is an adventure. You don’t just decide “I wanna be across the world”. It should be an adventure, we should take advantage of it, y’know, getting somewhere. Finding a dungeon travelling up in the mountains, battling away through stuff. Roadside adventures are cool. Finding a guy on the side on the road, like “Have you seen my wagon?” That’s cool, we’re missing this opportunity by just having fast travel.- Todd Howard, 2000
>>729009448>>729009772I can tell this guy only plays games if they have cheevos
>>729004639bingo
>>729004839>the literal main quest gives incorrect directions to the dwemer ruin.That was intentional. The guy giving the directions had a poor memory, you shouldn't have trusted him.
>>729010652Oblivion and Skyrim both did that. You didn't have to use the map fast travel
>>729010834>>729010941>>729011124You lost.
mark&recall plus almsivi and divine interventions are the most convenient spells ever made. that plus the silt striders and ships make travelling morrowind trivial.>and the pylons!nobody used those
>>729015202No they did not. Oblivion didn't have anything like that and Skyrim just had the cart.
>>729014391What went so, so wrong?
>>729015581Skyrim still has all the things he mentioned though.
>>729004920>cleared the entire dungeon from top to bottom>realise I missed a room right at the startDespite all its flaws, Morrowind was really memorable
>>729010834okay but what if I want to mod some of those inconveniences back in, like the timer in Dead Rising or tank controls in silent hill
>>729004920Sufferhttps://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/49781
>>729004423I somewhat agree with you but Cliff Racers are utter cancer. A good compromise would to do it like the old Fallout games. You can "fast travel" and see the route your character takes but can/will be stopped by common random/enemy encounters so it still encourages you to take the Silt Striders.
>>729004423So’s having a life, I guess.
>>729015957>it can be in one of 142 different places nowThis sounds absolutely terrible and i'm going to do it next time I install the game again
Lol yeah right. I'll always shit on Satisfactory for wasting the players time with its terrible tiny blueprints that don't get bigger until dozens of hours into the game. If a game doesn't respect your time it's because nobody forced the devs to sit down and play it from start to finish.
Role playing game = playing a role in a game's setting. As in, doing a task. Maybe the task isn't always fun but it grounds you in that universe. In other words, Dark Souls 2 and Zelda BotW aren't full RPGS but the weapon durability was a good mechanic, get filtered.
>>729014604I can tell you're the kind of retard that pretends to be a based oldfag gamer but doesn't actually play old games.
>>729016403>weapon durability was a good mechanicMechanic itself is fine but the problem was the game didn't offer enough rewards to encourage exploration.>inb4 exploration should be its own rewardBotW setting is too boring for that. Elden Ring had a similiar issue of most treasure not being worth it dependent on what you specialize but got away with it because the setting and scale was far and above more grand.
>>729016148There's a spot where it can actually spawn right there at the entrance outside the fucking door
>>729016407Nah
>>729013060>nooo, you have to save the shittiest beth game, fix it NOWdamn, you're a nigger
>>729016872>Makes a post showing he doesn't actually play FMs>Pretends to play Thief even though he hasn't played TBPI don't know what you were trying to accomplish with that post.
nah if you really play the game then those improvements are well received and cut down on grind time
>>729004423You know a game is good when you haven not played it for 15 years, but a single image from it after all that time can still produce the exact sound effect(s) in your head.
>me and buddy of mine saved up together to buy oblivion for 360 when it came out>spent hours taking turns playing and just discovering things, no real internet access so no spoilers or guides (which was great)>dozens of hours of gameplay before accidentally discovering you could fast travelPlaying through like that was so soulful. We would spend tons of time in each town. collecting quests, talking with every npc, exploring every building etc before planning where to go next. Not knowing about fast travel made every decision feel more important because you had to walk everywhere
>>729017034>pretends to play old games but actually just plays 1 old game over and over Prove you've beaten the entire Wizardry series right now or you're a fake gamer.
>>729017545What the fuck is Wizardry? Sounds like a porn game you faggot.
>>729004423Yeah. Anyone who has trekked Rain World pearl's to Moon could attest to how meaningful every word of lore feels once it's spoken. That knowledge feels more precious than any reward in any other game.
WoW vanilla vs BC and forward is a case study on this phenomenon. Class balance is overrated, it destroys flavor when everything just feels the same. Quest waypoints and linear dungeons ruin immersion as you never study the map or explore. Easy epics ruin their value. Etc etc
>>729017496I also went into Oblivion blind from Morrowind didn't realize you could fast travel from the map until after like 2 weeks straight of playing it.
>>729004423Only when it comes early and unearnedIf it comes late and with effort, it's good
>>729017696Flying mounts
>>729017545>Prove you've beaten the entire Wizardry series right now or you're a fake gamer.Sorry, but I'm an Ultima guy. As much as I like JRPGs, Wizardy's all grinding and grid maze approach is much less fun to play than Ultima games that are about exploring and cool quests. Here's my Akalabeth clear. It doesn't get older than that. And anyways, your damage control isn't really working because you still posted Thief to pretend you play it despite not having played the massive FM campaign that anyone even remotely interested in the series played. What damage control will you try next, fake oldfag gamer?
>>729004423Fast travel is okay, better if animated somehow with random encounters and whatnot like kingdom come.
>>729015252I LOST THE GAME
>>729017673fuck I love Outer Rim
>>729004423>Steam
>>729018137>you still posted Thief to pretend you play it despite not having played the massive FM campaign that anyone even remotely interested in the series played I posted Thief because that's what you posted. I don't have any interest in playing fan missions when I could be mapping instead.
>>729019396>I don't have any interest in playing fan missionsAbsolutely disgusting.
>>729019396How was I supposed to know that I have to throw the cross away?
>>729004423You unironically fast-travel more in Morrowind than in Skyrim.>B-but it's a taxiAnd you have to take 3 taxis just for a fetch quest then take 3 more back. At the end of the day it's the same shit. What makes Morrowind actually better is the lack of quest markers and journal-based directions. Once you unlock mark recall and levitation it's gg.
>>729019654>At the end of the day it's the same shit.It's not, that's the whole point of the thread
>>729004423Why walk when you can ride?
>>729019253Yes I too actually want to go back and buy my video games in personThank you very much
>>729019804>Why walk when you can ride?Because he never walks when he can leap!
>>729019707It is though. It's literally not the lack of fast travel that makes Morrowind good. It's everything else like the Journal, no compass, quests mostly being local, etc. There' no real difference between Skyrim's Carrige system and Morrowind's Silt strider system. The only game that did it really bad was Oblivion since you could only fast travel and could fast travel anywhere at the very start.
>>729020158>and could fast travel anywhere at the very start.only the cities. You have to walk everywhere else, at least once. But I think it would've been cool if they had that same rule for the cities, too
>>729012164>player->setspeed 100finally the game is playable>inb4 just exploit the boots of blinding speedit is not any better and I don't even want to crawl there
>>729010652Recall and intervention scrolls definitely felt more game-y
>>729010941>Was looking for certain mods for Persona 5>See r*ddit link on google, might as well click it because there aren't many actual hits>Every single recommendation is explicitly cheat mods, everyone upboats these and jerk each other off for suggesting blatant cheatsI should've known better
>>729020158It is different because it rewards the player for learning the lay of the land. >that guy said I have to go to Ald'ruhn>well I know that's not on the coast so first I have to take the boat to Vivec to catch a silt strider then take that north to Balmora It's only a tiny bit of engagement but when combined with the other things you mentioned it just feels more rewarding. Morrowind does a great job at making you feel like a stranger in a strange land at first and feeling right at home by the end.
>>729021193I fucking hate this shit so much. I hate them. I hate these people. It's like trolling but they're being serious.
>>729017696>Class balance is overrated, it destroys flavor when everything just feels the same.WotLK classes were way more balanced and had more going on without them being bloated and samey fuck offSame can't be said about the general questing and world design, I get it though
>>729019157Thumbnail looks like ass with thighs.
One QoL feature I'll die on the hill of is fucking regular manual savesI've always hated the only save option being save points, sometimes you need to stop playing, sometimes theres a stupid loading screen between things that you could've fucking put a save point after>Hurr durr save scummingYeah sure there's always a person trying to abuse shit, doesn't mean the system is garbage just because of that
>>729021624I like games with single-use quicksaves like Majora's Mask and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. It's convenient, but still prevents save scumming.
>>729021624Modern SSDs don't have loading screens. Game loads faster than your monitor's refresh time. Better to come back to a designated save point so that you don't get confused when coming back.
>>729004423Fast travel has been an option on many games I played but I was never compelled to use them because I am deliberate about what kind of experience I wanna have. I think having choices are fine, especially ones like fast travel where it's not that complicated or time consuming to implement the ability to warp a character somewhere with a loading screen.
>>729004463The funny thing is that this game is full of inconvenience anyway since many items can only be bought from specific stores in nobody remembers where because the shop is just a random door within the big city. So whatever amount of seconds you save by merging the center with the mart is going to be wasted in the time you spend trying to find those exclusive stores.
>>729022240what if the game has an option to warp to the final boss and an option to 1hko him with the starting weapon. is that choice fine
>>729022035Anon we are talking about gaming as a whole, most of which existed without without SSDs and that wasn't even the only point
>>729004423>Posts soulful screenshot>Erm, this is actually soulessOk
>>729022515But now we do have SSDs now so the loading screen argument is void.
>>729022501Yeah. It's not how I'd play the game but if the game doesn't force me to then I am indifferent.
>>729022774>The point is void because SSDs go back in time and erase your past experiences to replace them with better ones??????????
>>729023601If you want things fized you have to move on to the future, not dwell on the past.
