Who was the better choice, Frampt or Kaathe? Who is depicted in the Lothric statues and Ringed City statues?
>>729074757>>729074757There was no meaningful difference. Both insisted you unseal new londo and kill Gwyn, which were the actual goals.
>>729074757Kaathe's ending is the one with the epic music so that one.
>>729074757>Who is depicted in the Lothric statues and Ringed City statues?Both.
>>729074757Literally doesn’t matter because someone else links the fire anyways >you know what would be totally cool? If you lit yourself on fire
What's the dark lord's tax policy?
>>729077391same vibe
>>729074757Kaathe's ending was better because it's more hidden and reveals more of the story. Pseuds trying to keep their youtube career afloat then started the revisionist history of "they're both the same actually!!!" but that's not how the story is framed at all.
>>729077598Frampt's is more underrated. People whine and whinge about Gwyn being evil, but the man brought light to the dark and gladly lit himself on fire to prolong the world for everyone else.
>>729077598They literally are the same though and both dark souls 2 and 3 are predicated on it not mattering at all on who linked the flame when, only that it eventually was. DS1 itself even gives numerous hints that both of them are bullshitters, with the entire DLC being rooted in explaining precisely why Kaathe's ostensible vision for humanity is bad.
>>729077598Both Kaathe and Frampt show up in the Dark Lord ending.Looks like they were hedging their bets.Also, iirc, there are about 8 serpents in the Lordvessel room during that ending, but only those two are named. Intentional? Or are the primordial serpents actually hydras, like some speculate?
>>729077851I’ve heard a theory that they’re roots of the archtrees
>>729074757>choiceYou are a fool upon fools
>>729077851They're both there because only Kaathe was working towards a specific goal, Frampt is, as his name states, Kingseeker. If you're the Dark Lord, he serves you too. He's just in service of whoever is in power.This alone already makes them not the same. Kaathe has a specific agenda that he'll try to reenact against the current order if need be. Frampt just serves.
>>729077810I agree with this actually, and that was the point being illustrated by showing how things go to shit often when the dark is involved. But it's still deception being pushed on you versus the truth. You can still choose to link the fire after hearing the full story from Kaathe, after all. You're not locked to the Dark Lord ending. But you won't even know there is a Dark Lord ending if you believe Frampt and Gwyndolin's bullshit.It's deception vs truth, and Kaathe's paathe is the natural state of humanity. That said, natural doesn't necessarily means better. Life wasn't better when humanity was living as little more than monkeys, progress is positive too. There's nothing wrong with thinking the age of fire is better.But that's a meta discussion, as an interactive narrative, Dark Souls is about uncovering a secret that the game will never stop to tell you. It's about figuring out the truth through interacting with the game's levels and lore, it's a detective story.>>729077846Both Dark Souls 2 and 3 are predicated on retarded retcons written by Yui Tanimura. The same pseuds pushing that Frampt and Kaathe are the same on youtube also used to say that Dark Souls 2 not having a choice for an ending was the point because it showed how futile and pointless the choice was, because the same thing would happen no matter what, that whether you link the fire or not was something that would happen after the ending and didn't matter. Then Scholar of the First Sin came and took a dump on that theory and they pretended they never said any of this.Lore youtubers are massive faggots.
>>729078241>this much blathering just to be wrongLMAO
>>7290782413 was a miazaki game dipshit. >The same pseuds pushing that Frampt and Kaathe are the same on youtube also used to say that Dark Souls 2 not having a choice for an ending was the point because it showed how futile and pointless the choice was, because the same thing would happen no matter what, that whether you link the fire or not was something that would happen after the ending and didn't matter.They were 100% correct>Then Scholar of the First Sin came and took a dump on that theoryIt completely confirmed it. The point of the scholar ending is the player rejecting the importance of the first flame and their own compulsion to seek it. To become a "king" in the sense of regaining sovereignty of your own soul.
>>729078426Negative, the dark ending is not a possibility, you link the fire, period. The original ending of Dark Souls II isn't a statement on how pointless the endings of Dark Souls were, it just didn't have ending choices. "Not having a choice is the point" was pseud fabricated bullshit to sound smart on youtube.
>>729078558That's not even remotely what I said you fucking retard>The original ending of Dark Souls II isn't a statement on how pointless the endings of Dark Souls were, Correct, the original ending was "you link the flame, the end". The SCHOLAR ending is "linking the flame is gay, let some other retard do it if he wants"
>>729078386You didn't even read the image you just posted, nor have you ever played Dark Souls 1.Congratulations retard.
>>729078835Right, and that goes against the mental gymnastics youtubers were making to defend not having multiple endings as being a deep statement only to be proven wrong by Scholar releasing a year later, which is what I said.
>>729078908>wahwahwahwahliterally unable to disprove a single word LMAOREKT
>>729078967You shit talked 2 and 3, not just the vanilla version of 2. I get that you have a grudge against vanilla 2 because you're a PTDE tranny that still has PTSD over From ever releasing any more games and challenging you again, but when people talk about the story of dark souls 2, they're talking about the version of that game that actually has a story.
>>729074757>LothricFrampt. Lothric is a goody goy kingdom dedicating its entire existence to ensuring the first flame remains lit. Of course they'd depict Frampt as an angelic being.The Ringed city depicting a serpent as a beast could only be anti-Kaathe propaganda. Gwyn warning the pygmies to not consort the conniving serpent.
what i wabt to know was with fertile pigment, she turn into manlus right? the dark soul went bizarrre and she birthed humanity and the abyss at the same time?
>>729079305You're a genuine retard. Vanilla is way better than Scholar. Vanilla has artistic integrity, Scholar is the Nintendo Hire This Man version. Still doesn't change that From never agreed with that retarded mental gymnastics and lore youtubers are massive faggots making shit up to stay afloat.How in the fuck do I have a grudge against vanilla 2?Holy shit nu/v/ is genuinely fucking retarded. Not gonna bother replying to you anymore, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, go back to slurping eceleb cock.
>>729077810>gladly lit himself on fire to prolong the world for everyone elseDidn't Gwyn indirectly create the curse of the undead by linking the first flame? And isn't his decision to self-immolate to prolong the Age of Fire driven by a fear of mankind's potential being realized with the Age of Dark? He's far from a selfless, benevolent god.
>>729079898Are you clinically retarded? Type a coherent sentence.
>>729079898There is no evidence that Manus was one of the pygmy lords nor the original furtive pygmy, no. Manus was some human sorcerer who got abyss pilled and decided to get into dark-maxxing. May or may not have been a disciple of Kaathe.
>>729080046IIRC the curse of the undead isn't a thing, and undeath is just the natural state of mankind. People see it as a curse because as the fire fades, people start to revert to their natural states, and they don't like what they're seeing. But they're not beings of fire cursed with dark, they're beings of dark wrapped in fire. Life and death only came to be with the first flame, it being disrupted is not a new curse on humanity, it's just how it was before.
>one snake tells you to repeat the cycle>the other one tells you to break it>either way a snake will be the backer of the lord of a new erathat's how how interpreted it, the snakes play both sides, so they always winthat said I'm not much of a lore nerd, I just play the games
>>729078241When were those lore youtubefags ever correct to begin with?
>>729079963>Vanilla is way better than Scholar.Oh fuck, you're even more stupid than I thought>Scholar is the Nintendo Hire This Man version.It's made by literally the same people and they just actually finished the game>How in the fuck do I have a grudge against vanilla 2?The fact that you were shitting on people who tried to defend it. And while the story WAS borderline non-existent, the people who got hung up about it were almost exclusively people looking for excuses to hate the game just because it was harder than dark souls 1.>go back to slurping eceleb cock.You're the only person talking about them.
>>729080169No, undeath is indeed a product of Gwyn, a byproduct of him linking the dark soul to the first flame with the dark sign. He essentially enslaved humanity to the first flame, with undeath being something the first flame does to humanity to get them to link the flame and help them do it.
>>729080139sorry english not first language but you understanded it irregardlessly right?>>729080167did
>>729077810Which fucked the world irreparably
>>729074757In a vacuum while ignoring the existence of DS2/DS3, I would probably say Frampt since the darkness is associated with Manus and the horrible stuff we saw in New Londo and Oolacile. With the other two games defintely Kaathe since we know the world is constantly gets worse everytime the fire is linked.
>>729080046>Didn't Gwyn indirectly create the curse of the undead by linking the first flame?That was the inplication in DaS; by The Ringed City, From retconned it to be intentional (placing a seal of fire on humanity to bind them).
>>729080473So what is the natural state of mankind? The humanity enemies in the DLC?
>>729080559>since we know the world is constantly gets worse everytime the fire is linkedNot really. It gets "better" while the fire is burning, then things start to degrade.But "better" is relative: if you're a believer in Humanity, you hate the Age of Fire because it prolongs an unnatural state.>"Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity.And men assumed a fleeting form.These are the roots of our world.Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite…A lie will remain a lie."
>>729080559Kaathe is still worse because he encourages man to be the most base and terrible animal and to reject any notion of benevolence. He would replace a declining and stagnant civilization defined by sacrifice with a hell of darwinian rape demons. The good ending of DS3 is snuffing out the flame, the bad ending is seeing the logical conclusion of Kaathe's ideology and eating it to become the lord of all douchebags.
>>729080730I don't think it's ever really shown. All we see are extreme or perverted examples, like Abyss or Deep.
>>729080730>So what is the natural state of mankind? Possibly literal monkeys. >The humanity enemies in the DLC?Those are actually fragments of the dark soul enchanted to have will by Manus's magic.
>>729080361>It's made by literally the same people and they just actually finished the gameI don't know about that.being the same people doesn't change that they made it feedback edition, like the heide knights spammed in heide which goes directly against the enemy's whole concept, but was a common midwit complaint on internet forums in 2014.they made their official design works incorrect because retards complained about a nonissue, that's not "actually finishing the game.">Do the Heide Knights you encounter throughout the game have any relation to this location?>Tanimura: Yes, of course. They are the Knights of a lost kingdom, they have nowhere to return to and lack the presence of mind to do anything but wander the world.guess he forgot that they actually really love the dragonrider and will go nuts if he dies.
>>729080869>The good ending of DS3 is snuffing out the flameBut the Firekeeper says that, inevitably, Fire will come again.The good ending is having the girl paint a new world for Humanity with the Blood of the Dark Soul.
>>729074757Frampt outright lies to your face and Kaathe tells you half truths. They’re both manipulating you for their own ends. If you link the fire, you burn to a crisp but the age of fire goes on for a little longer before it fades again and the curse appears again. People may die human in its peak but the cycle is continued instead of broken. If you let the flame fade and refuse to link it, you become the Dark Lord of Men. The undead curse will still be prevalent but in exchange you are the most dominant power in the land. Given what happened to Oolacile and the Four Kings, Kaathe and his coterie of primordial serpents most definitely have nefarious ends in mind by installing themselves as your advisors. The choice of ending is ultimately a question of interpersonal motive rather than an action that makes any meaningful difference in the grand scale. Linking the flame is more “heroic” as you are sacrificing yourself to give other humans who have the curse a temporary window to die human, while the dark lord ending is more explicitly ambitious because you’re treading unknown territory and securing the power to make changes none of your primogenitors were able to.
>>729081030>The undead curse will still be prevalentThe curse is directly linked to the first flame.
>>729081001The fact that the developers made changes consistent with common complaints does not mean it was in response to those complaints, it just means that the problems were very obvious.
>>729081001>I can't play this game because it does not conform to my interpretation of the lore of these fodder enemiesNTA just laughed reading your post.
>>729081002Flames, plural. When light returns, it may be in a less cataclysmic form.>The good ending is having the girl paint a new world for Humanity with the Blood of the Dark Soul.Both happen. The painted world cannot exist without an outer world.
>>729074757NeitherI made my own decision to light the fire, but for my dear friend Oscar
>>729081240>The painted world cannot exist without an outer world.Says who?Common sense? Unironically meaningless when it comes to Souls metaphysics.
>>729081128The curse is artificial and the Way of White creates undead by placing the curse upon corpses. Paladin Leeroy was the first undead, the intro literally begins with a maiden placing the curse on a dead body. If the flame fades the curse has no way to temporarily abate as it “spreads” when the fire is in danger, not when the fire is bright.
>>729080730The humanoids in DS1's intro.
>>729080929I always assumed it was being hollow. Without a lord soul or a fragment of the dark soul, that's what people regress to, is that not the case?Because humans require the dark soul to be human, right? The beings that came from the dark got their lord souls / dark souls and from that "species" were born, we're descendants from the Pigmy carrying a fragment of his soul, the darksign limits that, but not being bound by life and death makes sense with the lack of disparity, as does being mindless.Is it actually said that being hollow is directly caused by the flame?
time is convoluted
>>729081347The painting has to go somewhere
>>729081158I would agree if not for the quote included that directly goes agains that. he literally stated that it was working as intended before the complaints were even made.there's other examples too not related to lore, like for example the aggro ranges being increased making enemies leave the position intended for the encounter design and just rushing you down mindlessly, sometimes switching movesets to the close proximity one before you get the chance to fight the long range one, very evident in iron keep. weirdly enough also happens in DS1 Remastered in some areas, so probably related to how their engine deals with framerates.
>>729074757her looks like freddy that time he went full snake
>>729081227I didn't say I can't play it, I did play it, I just think it's worse. and it's not my interpretation, it's the director's own words.
>>729081391I always saw those as looking like hollows, but I suppose it's never shown in detail and it was always just my headcanon.
>>729081697kino
>>729081594>like for example the aggro ranges being increased making enemies leave the position intended for the encounter design and just rushing you down mindlessly, Increased leash distance was to combat people rushing through areas without even attempting to engage with the enemies. The ranges at which aggro is initiated was actually greatly decreased in most areas, and often tied to the player crossing a specific threshold or doing a specific action.
>>729079243That schlopper was easily my favorite boss in ds1. I tried so hard to beat the 2 of them that appeared after the first fight but always got womped
>>729074757Kaathe, because you don't sacrifice yourself.
>>729077810Gwyn was never supposed to mess with the First Flame. He just wanted to prolong the rule of the gods instead of retiring to some forgotten corner of the world and allowing humanity to take over.
>>729082019>Increased leash distance was to combat people rushing through areas without even attempting to engage with the enemies.this was already done in DS2 vanilla compared to DS1, also not being immediately invincible on fog walls and doors. but only in scholar you'll have iron keep archers rushing you with melee long before you actually get close to them. you don't even deal with the ranged threat and they switch to close range while still being far from you. the enemy AI is at odds with the encounter design. the point of placing archers is to shoot at you, imagine if anor londo archers just dropped what they were doing to bum rush you before you're even at the hardest part of that setpiece.
>>729082769Kaathe propaganda. Gwyn fucked up but he genuinely believed there was no other choice. He sacrificed his whole family and his own life.
>>729082887You're just wrong, in DS2 scholar the iron keep knights that are supposed to use bows will continue to do so until you get quite close.
>>729082912>He sacrificed his whole familyNo he gave much of his power to the other gods and sacrificed himself. Then the other gods abandoned Anor Londo when the flame started to die out again, which is what Gwyn should have done from the start.
>>729074757HE COMEHE ZUCCI CUM
>>729083048your definition of "quite close" includes archers placed in an encounter that will never even shoot at you because by the time you enter the room they're already in "switch moveset" range while in vanilla they still act as archers. it's a subjective measure that completely ignores encounter design. why would they be placed as archers if they weren't meant to fight as archers?
>>729083641You're just wrong. Several of the knights in iron keep will only use the bow until you get within 30 feet. This means that the ones that don't are intentionally not using their bows.
>>729083241>he gave much of his power to the other godsThe only people he gave power to were Seathe and the human lords of new londo. He also gave away both of his daughters and enslaved his son to the service of prospective human lords of cinder.
>>729083812>it's intentionaloh ok
>>729074757Theyre the same choice. The sneks are trolling everyone.
