The term Metroidvania has always been weird to me. Roguelike makes sense, First person shooter makes sense, but metroid castlevania being smashed together has always been weird.
>>729149927>Roguelike makes senseIt really doesn't. It's claiming the games bear resemblance to an ASCII game from 45 years ago. Roguelike includes games that don't even remotely resemble Rogue. It would be like calling Mario Tennis a Ponglike.
>>729150040Roguelike is the same proliferation as Doomclone. It just makes sense, what is the game? oh it's like Doom, it's like Rogue.
> metroid castlevania being smashed together has always been weird.They are the most popular and well made games that basically started that genre. It's not weird for the genre to be named after the games that created and popularized it. >Roguelike makes senseno. As pointed out it has little to do with the actualy rogue games as the rogue-like and rogue-lite genres are spin-offs of the origianal rogue using few of it's ideas. Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH5ohcGnRm0 and this will give you a much better understanding the differance between games like rogue and a roguelike game.
>>729150210Yeah, except they’re not like rogue usually >>729149927Metroidvanias are games that are like SotN
>>729150257Why isn't there a genre called Jumpmans, or Zeldalikes. Where is the Zeldafantasys, or the Sonicmarios
>>729150328>they’re not like rogueexplain
>>729149927>look up video in op>hear troon voice>close videofuck you
>>729150457passable
>>729150257Problem is Metroid alone created all of the tropes. Caatlevania SOTN was a Metroid clone.
>>729149927if roguelike makes sense to you, why is metroidvania confusing to you? it's pretty much the same idea just dropping the name of the inspiration in the genre name.at least with first person shooters and such, it's what's actually going on
>>729150364Most roguelikes now are just games that are “pick 1 of 3 upgrades” in any form of gameplay style
>>729150554that's a roguelite
>>729150513Why is that a problem?Metroidvania is a castlevania that took beats from MetroidAnd the genre itself is just copying SotN
>>729149927i prefer castletroid
>>729150527No other genre smashes two games together like that to describe it
>>729150595> except they’re not like rogue usuallyIf people used that then I’d agree with youBut we both know they don’t
>>729149927it describes a specific kind of game. if you want to talk ab out games like that, it is a term you can use to avoid reading a wikipedia definition
>>729150637roguelike uses onemetroidvania uses 2it's the same idea of dropping the inspiration into the name. if you understand roguelike, you understand metroidvania. unless you're just goofin
>>729150771He understands itHe doesn’t like it, in the same way some puritans don’t like Shmup
>>729150858I don't because I always read it as shrimp, and for a second it's like, but that's food
I don't like the term Metroidvania because it gives credit to Castlevania where it shouldn't, but I understand it's just how the jargon came to be and that's that. It should be just metroid-likes but whatever.I also take issue with pic related. Specially when people says that "it's like a mixture of bloodborne with blasphemous", when it's really only blasphemous. Because Blasphemous already took plenty of inspiration from Bloodborne. It really drives me nuts.
>>729150608The problem is that the genre is not copying SotN. The genre is copying Metroid. If anything, the genre is copying the fact that SotN copied metroid. There's 0 castlevania essence in the genre that wasn't copied from Metroid, save if there's like jrpg exp points or something, which is a small amount of them (and which castlevania dropped because it just doesn't work well).
>>729151776It’s not copying Metroid thoughBarely any if any metroidvanias are actually like Metroid
>>729151953Metroid isn't like Metroid, and it's a damn shame.a full 3D imagining of Metroid 1 would go hard.
>>729151953Allright, i'll bite. If they're not copying metroid then why call them metroidvania at all. Are most of these games about slaying vampires with a whip? Which games are you thinking about?
>>729151953Other way around, barely any new age metroidvanias have anything to do with SOTN or anything else that Iga worked on.Hollow Knight is soulroid more so than metroidvania.
>>729152231Hollow Knight is an overrated SHIT
There's no point in arguing. I am the most attractive and smartest person in this thread. If you argue with me, you are arguing from a standpoint where you are ugly. I'm a 9 on a bad day. You are a 7 on a good day. I can't recall what my overall point was but I definitely think Aria of Sorrow is the best Castlevania game and that Metroid is the only good Nintendo series. I hope Zeldafags get the rope. It's 2330 in the real world so I will be going to bed and I will not respond. Zelda, Sonic, and Mario fans should all be executed though.
>>729152334I have a friend who is getting back into videogames as a 40 year old and hasn't played anything since he was like 20. He's started playing Hollow Knight and he's having a blast.Every time he talks to me about it he's so excited and I find myself trying to contain my power level but I can't help being a bummer sometimes and say things like "yeah, that's from a different game".In any case, I envy his newly found interest in videogames. He has an ungodly backlog now and everything seems new and fresh.
>>729149927It makes much more sense as a term when you realize it originated from the Castlevania fandom and was originally used as an insult for the SoTN styles Castlevanias before normalfags started using it for the whole genre.
everyone in this thread is gay post some lesser known good Vanias>What if we take what Blaster Master is and Remove the tank and the weapon deleveling bullshit and turn the difficulty up to challengingYou get this game, I snagged it during the sale and its been great so far.
>>729150331Zelda clone is a genre tho
>>729152334nta but it is literally the most successful metroidvania ever madelike it or hate it, it managed to hit like nothing else in the genre. which makes me sad, because I fucking love metroid and hate that it can't seem to find a larger audience
>>729152463I haven't been a 7 in years
>>729149927It's an outdated, anachronistic, term. Hollowvania or even Hollowlikes is a more appropriate term.
>>729152474I would just tell him that game is overrated as sin, and tell him to play a good game instead.
>>729149927>volting Samus instead of morphing ballOne job
the first metroid is so shit
>>729152231Hollow knight devs literally state that it’s heavily inspired by Zelda 2, which I’m inclined to agree with>>729152221Because it’s based on castlevania games that have taken some aspects of Metroid into their formula, that is literally all it is anon
>>729152545I kinda disagree the first hollow knight is okay but it kinda hit me like a wet noodle personally, when I finished it I went and booted up Dread and had way more fun. I really dont remember a time where HK seriously wow'd me until the end when I did the fight with The Radiant.
>>729150508>you're beautiful just the way you are, hon :)
>>729152746I mean I agree with that, Dread is the most fun I've had with the genre in a long time and HK was just "okay" for me.but HK was leaps and bounds more successful. i don't personally know why that is, but the numbers are there. it hit for a lot of people.
>>729149927Initially the term didn't refer to some kind of genre, but rather it specifically referred to the Metroid-like Castlevania games. Then people started using it for every game that was like either Metroid or Castlevania.
>>729149927Decent video but the tranny voice really kills it. Like nails on a chalkboard
>>729152814it's the artwork and music, definitely not the gameplay
The weird thing about calling the genre metroidvania is that they usually don't have any Castlevania elements, SOTN was a metroidvania because it was Castlevania + Metroid elements + RPG elements, but the only thing they use from SOTN are the RPG elements
>>729152631I think the game is good, even if it's not my personal cup of tea. And I wouldn't want to sour his enjoyment.I personally find that the artstyle doesn't speak to me and that the character doesn't control in any interesting way. It's extremely agile and there's little weight or momentum to it, so you can zoom around just as fast as your autism allows.This, I find, is the reason why bosses are so damn tough, because your manouverability is so high that it's necessary to fill the screen with shit hitboxes. And that's fine, but it turns bosses into walls to hit your head against until you're assed to learn the patterns by heart in each phase. It also makes moving about the environment trivial.That's why i find the rain world approach a lot better. Your character moves clumsily and there's a lot of weight to him. Moving around is a puzzle in itself, and the game never goes far into learning arbitrary patterns. It's all about observation and being careful.Then there's metroid. Which is not quite as remotely smart as rain world, but it doesn't jerk itself over complicated bosses. Just a decently sized world with plenty to explore and good atmosphere.
>>729152949I will actually say despite Dread being so good for me, I thought the music (other than a few tracks) was sort of boring for a Metroid game. Even the recent Prime 4 has a more "Metroidy" sounding OST.
>>729152741>Because it’s based on castlevania games that have taken some aspects of Metroid into their formula, that is literally all it is anon>itWhat "it" are you talking about? I'm genuinely curious. And no, it's not the genre. My point is that the genre is mostly metroid and no vania. And Hollow Knight deifnitely is one. It has even the same upgrades and everything.
>>729152951The gameplay and RPG elements is what makes SotN anonYou basically said “except for doing what SotN does, they’re nothing like it”Just admit you suck dicks already
>>729153045Prime 4 is underrated
>>729153124Your point is irrelevant You just don’t like the word metroidvania because you’re autisticMove on
>>729153045That's because kenji yamamoto wasn't a main composer in dread meanwhile in prime 4 he was front and center.
>>729153191The game has problems but overall it was a good experience
>>729153193Ah, you're baiting. And here i thought we were having a genuine discussion. Take care, faggot.
>>729150608>beatsLet’s not use goofy screenwriting terms for video game mechanisms.
>>729151654Metroidvania is odd, because the term originally wasn't a genre. It was specifically used to describe Castlevania games which played like Metroid, in order to distinguish them from what some people now call Classicvanias. But then the term gained enough traction and it became a genre somehow.
>>729149927Search Action is the real term, but no one likes using it because using the right term has a certain degree of "uhh, actually" inherently bundled to it. Doesn't help that it doesn't sound snappy either.Maybe because "Search Action" is the Japanese term for the genre, you could call them "Tansaku Games." That rolls off the tongue a bit easier and doesn't get the same "umm, actually" eyeroll. It instead gets you the weeb eyeroll, which is easier to shoulder.
>>729153278There is no discussion because you’ve been doing this for a good part of a decade genre autist
>>729152814Its the zoomers, thats why its literally the whole reason why I even bought the game in the first place. I heard so many good things that they completely oversold the game and then obviously you know what happened after that. Hollow Knight fanbase is on my shitlist for "never listening to again" because clearly it was a bunch of kids that had no idea what a fucking metroidvania is and simply wanted buge souls, its the art that does it for them.HK2 is good tho they can brag about that. But Dread is still fucking god tier especially since it put a few things on track... which prime4 basically ruined.
>>729153515I just came into this thread and asked you which metroidvania games you say are nothing like metroid. Yet you don't seem to be able to deliver.
>>729153356Yeah, I know the story. It's okay, but it would bother me a little less if people stopped parroting that this word describes a genre that combines Castlevania gameplay with Metroid gameplay.It's just not true, and metroid needs more attention.
>>729153762No one cares about your feelings.
>>729153681Most metroidvania games are nothing like -vania part of the genre name, to the point we now have to split hairs even more coining shit like igavania just so retards doesn't slap it on anything that has a map and backtracking.
>>729153681 Name one that is, I’ve already said a majority aren’t like itThe only one I can think of that’s close is a robot named fight and that’s a roguelite
>>729153838>Most metroidvania games are nothing like -vania part of the genre namePrecisely my point. Thank you.
>>729153838They are literally mostly the vanished partwtf are you on about
>>729153674>HK1 bad>HK2 goodexplain
>>729153970I already said Hollow Knight has a lot of metroid in it and nothing really vania. It's metroid + souls amongst a few new ideas, but the general idea is clearly metroid.
>>729150210Roguelites got rolled in, so now you have shit like Absolum considered the same genre as Shiren.
>>729154012No they are not, there are maybe 3-4 proper metroidvanias released in recent years, two of which are chinese and the other one is bloodstained,
>>729150040>It would be like calling Mario Tennis a Ponglike.Start doing this
>>729154079I already told you that’s like Zelda 2Is having a map all it takes for you to say it’s like Metroid?Man I’m really sick of genre autistsAh well, they’re called metroidvianias now so it doesn’t really matter what you think in the end
>>729154019Keepin it short, also I didnt call HK bad I said it was okay.>Step up in difficulty.>Platforming is alot better.>bosses are fun this time >customization massively improved enhancing gameplay and making it more varied.everything else is superfluous like secrets characters and lore it didnt leave me with my dick in my hand after all the fun had been had.
>>729150364Rogue is a specific text based Dungeon crawl RPG that spawned a similar genre of text based RPGs dubbed "roguelikes." The description has since expanded in popular lexicon to mean "any game where you respawn at the start when you die and get random power ups each run" even though there's a huge difference in ADOM, Hades, Balatro, Baroque, or whatever else could be described as "roguelike" by that definition
>>729149927It was spread by the worst type of insufferable internet faggot, it's a black mark on anyone who says it.
>>729154314>Scotformer
>>729150210no genre should ever have the same level of uselessness as "doomclone"if you haven't played the original work, it describes nothing at all other than pointing at a seminal work, regardless of how much said genre may have shifted over the years.Hell, Rogue wasn't even the first, nor are the core tenants of the Berlin Interpretation even correct with describing the genre in the first fucking place.No one has enough influence to coin a real genre name for it or its derivatives, so we're stuck with this horrendous nomenclature. The closest separation you could make is the parallel with coin-op games but even that isn't true in blanket terms because of a subset of games that allow metaprogression upon failure it's just a big fucking mess of run-based games with little to do with each other.
>>729154229>Is having a map all it takes for you to say it’s like Metroid?No, it's not having a map. In fact, Metroid didn't have maps until Super Metroid. It's the scale, the 2D perspective and the kind of progression within that world.Zelda 2 has a few small mazes scattered around a big top down view map. On the other hand, Metroid games are a single cohesive environment connected by a few shafts and elevators. Obviously Hollow Knight is a lot more like metroid in this regard. Everything it takes from Zelda 2 is smaller scale stuff design-wise (talking to a few npcs and 2D sword combat. But there's movements taken straight out of metroid like that weird in-place shinespark, which can't think of another game you would find it in).In any case, if your point is that this metroidvania is not like metroid, but rather like Zelda II, then where's the vania in all of this?Nowhere. So my point stands and I win and you dilate and cope. Bye!
>>729154713You really haven’t played SotN and subsequent Castlevania games, have you
>>729150331>JumpmansThere is, it's called 2D platformers.Why the fuck would we use a new name for something that already had an established name.
It's strange to me cause like 80% of the indie "Metroidvanias" circumvent the elements Introduced in the Iga Castlevania games.So their really just Metroid clones, not Metroidvanias.
>>729150608>And the genre itself is just copying SotNIt's pretty rare actually, cause adding the RPG elements takes a lot of extra work.
>>729154691>Berlin Interpretationmeme terminology
>>729154850platformers start at Mario NES
>>729155121You just aren’t playing them
>>729155183platforming starts earlier then that,
>>729155296DK is not a platformer, it's an arcade game, and besides that game has jumpman in it.
>>729155235There's simply a disproportionately small amount.
>>729153356It's odd because in modern parlance they're mostly called IGAvanias on the Castlevania side, aren't they? I recognize that's mostly because Bloodstained is just not-Castlevania made by the same guy so it's an easy way to include that game in discussions, but I've seen CotM included in that term as well despite not being an Iga game.Words are fucking weird, man.
>>729155878for that reason i call them metroid-style castlevanias. i'd much rather exclude bloodstained than circle. you can pretend bloodstained is part of the same sub-series but you should have to specify that.you can also just not take "igavania" literally and assume it includes circle of the moon as well, but i wouldn't trust people to have the common sense to do that, which is why i don't usually use the term.
>>729155380"Arcade game" is not a genre, you ape.
>>729149927“Character action game” makes less sense but people still use it.
>>729158319They used to be called hack n' slash games but that term was too broad. As much as people meme on "J-action" it's the probably the best name for them.
>>729157970yes it is, DK is an arcade game
>>729149927Roguelike makes as much sense as castlevania. If you wanted a descriptive name like first person shooter it woild be called randomized replayability.
>>729154976What? The majority of indie games have RPG elements and are much more like the Castlevania games. There's barely any Metroid clones, Axiom Verge is the biggest one. Even modern Metroid doesn't copy Super Metroid anymore, they're more linear action games than anything that you can sequence break if you look up how to do it.Something like Silksong allows players to go off the path early and go to places they really shouldn't be like Hunter's March, which is why people get filtered so hard by it.
>>729150331>>729152531zelda itself is a hydlide clone. call them hydlikes.
>>729149927It shouldnt make sense anon, its fucking retarded
>>729154976This is how I feel about it too. If you've got leveling up and equipment, fine, Metroidvania makes sense. For 99% of the rest of the quasi-genre, they're just Metroid clones.>>729160061I find it to be the other way around. The only indie "Metroidvania" games with RPG elements are like, H games.
>>729161965I take it you didn't play Ender Magnolia this year. Hell, even Silksong has build variety. I think this might be on you not playing enough games in the genre.
>>729162056I don't think Silksong has any RPG elements. To me that's straight Metroid. The additions the Igavania games had to Metroid were leveling up and EXP, random item drops from enemies, JRPG-like equipment, and a bunch of continuous stats and variables. If you find all of your discrete upgrades from exploring stuff, it's not a Metroidvania, that's just Metroid.
>>729162294I personally will never consider anything without a gun focus being similar to Metroid over Castlevania just because Castlevania games have an explicit focus on melee combat. OG Castlevania really wasn't similar to Contra because of that, they played very differently.
>>729149927>>729150210What's the difference between>like Rogue>like Doom>like Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the NightI'll admit that "metroidvania" is a poor name, but saying that "roguelike" is somehow better is just ridiculous. It's the same thing. You're just claiming that you're used to roguelike but don't like metroidvania as much, not that one is any different from the other.
>>729163029I want to play a good sonicmario, could you recommend one
>>729164313Kitsune Tails
>>729157970"Arcade" is a genre. It focuses on (Usually lives-based) score attacks where game overs reset you to the start or reset your score if you want to continue. There's no saved progress outside of the scores. Rail shooters are a sub-genre of arcade games just as checkpoint racing games and SHMUPs are.
>>729152517Side Scape is a 2D metroidvania where you can change perspective to play it like an isometric map. Short but really clever. Xanthiom Zero is by the same dev and is a small metroid clone where almost every upgrade is a gun modification you can mix and match. Insect Adventure gets blindingly fast movement and has a really fun combat system where you blitz from enemy to enemy as your combo builds.Vision Soft Reset is a 4D metroidvania where you build your own web of timelines and figure out where and when you need to be to progress, with only some upgrades able to travel through time with you.Thread has no combat and could be considered more of a platformer, but the upgrades are cool and the movement requires a satisfying level of precision.
>>729162793I'm with you. People who only dabble in the genre don't see the cascade of design implications from choosing melee-focused combat vs. ranged-focused. Hell, even Dread didn't feel much like "metroid" because the melee counter and free-aiming meant there was no consideration whatsoever regarding the player's spacing and firing angles.
>>729149927>another thread bitching about a genre's nameI wish death to all of you zoomers
