game dev realizes 20 years after becoming a dev that people actually hate tutorials
>>729255318>“Back when I was developing mobile games,” Itchie wrote, “I once noticed a high player dropout rate, and suspecting that players were getting stuck during the tutorial, I decided to add extra explanations. However, after closely examining logs, I realized that players were barely reading the instructions in the first place. The reason for the high dropout wasn’t because people didn’t understand, it was because they were made to wait too long without getting to touch the controls.” Upon realizing this, Itchie revised the game’s instructions and shortened the tutorial section by 30 seconds, which led to a visible improvement in player retention. the eureka moment:>“It was an example of a failure caused by the developer making assumptions about players’ comprehension instead of measuring it,” he recalled.
>>729255318Tutorials exist because of the death of the manual. And don't give me this shit about digital, the 3DS all included a digital manual in every copy that could be booted from the main menu. I honestly think we can dig deeper than "no manual in the box because of digital", because I think its related to Gen Z being the most illiterate and functionality illiterate generation. When you play a modern AAA game you can expect the initial 1-3 hours to be humiliating ritual tutorials with Marvel writing. Metroid Prime 4 is an example of that trend affecting Nintendo. Tears of the Kingdom tutorial annoyed the shit out of me compared to Breath of the Wild. They nailed it with Breath then retreated with TOTK. They were afraid of leaving anyone behind which affected the story, a lot of NPCs have selective amnesia about Link's actions in BoTW because they are afraid of someone buying a sequel not understanding what happened in the first game. The problem is making your game accessible to everyone. Then it's a game for no one.
>>729255318BOTW had a brilliant tutorial retarded negro
>>729255580Also I wanna add we had solutions to no "manual available" with the tutorial being a standalone option in the main menu (MANY early 2000 games had this like Deus Ex). The 3DS had the option to boot the digital manual at any time. PS1 and PS2 Classics on the PS3 digital store allowed you to access the PDF scans of a manual. GOG has scans of the manual. It's fucking dogshit what happened to manuals being replaced with on-boarding humiliation ritual mandatory tutorials.This might explain why people have amassed backlogs, they buy the games and forget about it for a while. But when they wanna launch the game they're afraid of the initial hours being so bad because of the humiliation ritual tutorials.
>>729255318The tutorial should be a menu option in the title screen, and tutorials in most games could just be an image that explains what each button/key does.
Tutorials can be fine when implemented correctly. Umihara Kawase has tutorials - a handful of 5 second animations that display the use case of a basic mechanic, then an early stage designed to let the player express each use case, and that's it. Like 2 minutes in total to teach the fundamentals and then it's up to you to figure out the rest.
>>729255580As a kid, I loved reading a game manual on my way from the store with a new game.
>>729255580>Gen Z being the most illiterate and functionality illiterate generationthis
A game shouldn't need a tutorial. If it needs a tutorial, you fucked up.
>>729255920Yeah I have great memories of the car rides after buying a new game at the mall. Reading the PS2 and GameCube booklets hyped you for playing the game before you even put it in. I blame illiteracy for Gen Z. I'll keep harping about it but you'll be surprised just how genuinely bad the general population has gotten at reading comprehension. Most zoomers cannot, fucking, read.
>>729255318Get rid of the stupid fucking saturated fog everywhere you stupid fucking dumbfucks Can't see shit constantly fucking blinded by white specular fog
>>729255403i often read stuff like this and think to myself, what a fucking idiot. how did he not intuitively understand the problemprobably bc i'm a genius
tutorials are also 99% of the time completely worthless, if I get stuck I'll just look up a guide, but a tutorial has never helped me understand anything
>>729256012Sad part, I feel myself falling to do that too. I practically don't read books anymore, just listen to audiobooks.
Tutorials should only exist when the game introduces a completely original mechanic or a skill with a weird button combo, otherwise its completely retarded. Some games I play has some esoteric mechanic and I never use it until I someone mentions it later. Thats the sort of shit you should have a tutorial for
>>729255403>>729255318makes perfect sense when you consider the fact that most muttmericans are functionally illiterate
>>729255318>>729255403So they're gonna make games worse for everyone to pander to the adhd-riddled mobile market. Just another reason why Japanese video games are in such a terrible place and some random french devs are making a better jrpg than they've done in decades.
>>729255403>>729256064its the kind of thing that is obvious if you actually play games a lot and engage with themno one wants to fkin deal with long ass tutorials that keep trying to tell you shit when u are just trying to do X thing.So many games don't even let u change the damn settings until you finish the tutorial and u gotta deal with wonky video settings or being super loud, its absurd. mobile games are super bad at this as well to add to his example of just not understanding.just let me play the damn fucking game first to see if I even like it or not, then you explain to me all the details once I have some questions that I want answered about how certain things work.
>>729256228I was watching a Gen Z streamer who was playing a game and they were having trouble reading words. I felt really bad for their parents and their teachers. Reading and articulating yourself are dying skills. Functionality illiterate means you can get away with sloppy reading and writing skills to barely get by, but anything like government/doctor paperwork or books/visual novels are completely out of of reach. I'm not gonna lie to you I used the school sparknotes abridged during high school, but I was still able to read college level books when I was graduated.
>>729255318>third game in a series>get repeat tutorials from the first two gamesA new game in a series should only get tutorials for new shit introduces.Only exceptions are when the subsequent game is a complete departure from the previous ones, IE Fallout 3.
>>729255403how do i opt out of all this telemetry botnet shit?
Tutorials are needed for people who fail the 4chan captcha a lot
>>729256703So Indians and Jews?
Games have such similar design language and concepts nowadays that you really shouldn't be onboarding your player under the assumption they've never played a video game before.
>>729255318The only kind of tutorial I'll tolerate is having tooltips that show up on the side of the screen during the first level and tell me which buttons to press in a given situation.
>>729256601Banjo Tooie was pretty neat about this.You had your entire kit from the first game and the starting area had some places where you could get a refresher on those abilities, but if you knew what you were doing you could just ignore them all.
>>729256405>So they're gonna make games worse for everyone to pander to the adhd-riddled mobile market.Well yeah. I don't have any nieces or nephews but I betcha if any anons here had Gen Alpha siblings they'll tell you how if a game gets too hard for them they'll drop it and go back to their tablet/smartphones for mobile tier slop and YouTube/TikTok videos. Hitting a wall for a youngster these days means you failed a game designer for modern game industry. The abundance of entertainment options is a problem that needs tackling. Let's say you were a kid in the 1980/90s/early 2000s. If you missed your favorite show you aren't getting a rerun for a while. If you mom bought you a game you didn't like and you were poor you had to suck it up because it was the weekend and your favorite shows/friends weren't available. Your options as a youth predating the modern internet were limited. Now late Gen Z and Gen Alpha can just ditch it if they're bored/frustrated and move on to the next instant gratification ADHD brainrot. It's a giant public health crisis affecting wealthy and 3rd world nations. Video game industry is tackling this by making their games more Hollywood like to maintain interest. A game that is afraid of challenging players would be shutdown at pitch room meetings with publishers faster than me turning down a woman who has tattoos.
>>729256550I'm almost positive this retard admitted he has ADHD and admitted he was off his meds when he was playing Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess. Found it it was Majora's Mask https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEh3AsQ3WXg
There's no need for tutorials that stop the game at all. Just have a semi-transparent prompt on the side of the screen telling me what basic shit does and I'll glance at it to see if it's something I didn't notice on my own and just keep playing and ignore it if it's retarded shit like "move the left stick to walk"I don't understand the point of those abrasive tutorials that stop you until you do something incredibly basic like jumping once. No one who is THIS bad at games and too stupid to read the optional tutorial on thei own without being forced to do the thing has any hope of finishing any game worth playing in the first place.
>>729256276Ironically, a game that needed a better tutorial was Resident Evil 6 since it not only has a ton of mechanical interactions that aren't intuitive (lying supine speeds up your stamina recovery, to name one) but God forbid you jump into it having never played RE4/5 and try to play it like the older games. Picking up RE6 completely blind is a lightless, godless experience.
>>729257225RE6 is fucking crazy lol. A lot of hidden mechanics aren't explained AT ALL in any of the campaigns. Lying down speeds your stamina recovery being a big one. There's also ways to shake the herb faster, instant combine tricks, and melee combos that you wanna use in RE6 Mercenaries mode. I got so bad the community had to make PDFs sharing all the advance techniques in the game. I still don't get Capcom's rationale in having all this complexity and not telling the players about it, you normally don't have to engage with most of them in the campaign unless you know the tricks. RE6 Mercenaries is a great mode in a flawed horror game.
>>729256930Didn't Spyro do this as well?You started 2 with the upgrades you finished the first one with, and so forth?
>>729255920same
>>729256760and women
>>729255403I'm starting to think that Japanese game devs don't actually play video games.Who the fuck has ever been stuck at a tutorial explaining basic fucking shit that can be gleaned by playing the fucking game for 10 seconds and thought "man, I wanted to play this game, but I just can't figure it out since this 30 minute tutorial just doesn't go into enough detail, guess I'll have to stop playing?"
Halo's tutorials are the perfect length>Look four directions>Tutorial done, go play the gamePeople aren't retards. You don't need half an hour of tutorial levels before the real gameMake early levels easier, make later levels harderMobile games are horrendous for tutorials because they take 20 minutes of forced menu interaction where you MUST use every highlighted thing with constant menu popups and pauses in the moment to spew words. Given he's from a mobile game background it makes sense that he struggled with this, they're the worst in the industry
Tutorials are an automatic failure of game design.
I think tutorials can be fun if they're given their own little level and theming to exist in.
>>729255580blah blah blah, it's because it's more immersive to learn in real time playing the game dipshit
the best tutorial is none. the second best if you absolutely must is a tooltip saying you have a new tutorial to read at your leisure.
>>729258650>People aren't retards. You don't need half an hour of tutorial levels before the real gameThat was then and this is now. I dread replaying the early hours of FFX because of those fucking tutorials but it lets off at some point. So the issues were there just not as widespread as today. Most game developers today make games with the mindset of(a) Gen Z and Gen Alpha have ADHD and illiteracy (b) if a game is too difficult for the above group they'll stop playing/refundThat's why they're so much bitching about games not having checkpoints these days as a "negative". I'm not one of those people who wants every game to be FromSoftware roll slop with FORGIVE ME ZANZIBART PHASE 3, but at some point you have to let people experience failure to get better. People need that motivation to get through a game and some devs give up because of publishers demands (Metroid Prime 4 being one of those) or because they're too stubborn like ATLUS making the initial hours of their games brutal slogs before it opens up. SMT5 is the only exception to the rule that lets you play the game right away without interruptions after the first half hour that establishes world building.>>729258928And if you have an audience that has patience problems they will dump and refund the game. Why do you think Steam games have been trying to combat the early 2 hours refund rule? Making the early game as slow as agonizing as possible with the humiliation ritual of modern game tutorials.
>>729255318i like a tutorial that tells me something i can't just immediately figure out myself from having played a video game before or by just pressing all the buttons once. if your game makes me sit through a mandatory tutorial about how to walk and move the camera you can fuck off, especially if it's got a big skill tree full of shit like "has a medium chance to stun!"
>>729256064it sounds simple as a player but if you were a dev youd probably get invested in getting people to learn all the systems of your game, hopefully ensuring they have a great experience, and putting the blinders on.
>>729258591>game devs don't actually play video gameshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OZqmWB0wXo
remember when every game used to have a gay little locked room where someone would be in your ear like "use the control stick to move">move using control stick 0/5 timesman im glad we got past that
>>729258591>>729255403devs haven't played games in 20 years. If they do play games it's always mobile/casual AAA shit.Another reason to play indie vidya
>>729258928fr. playing tony hawk pro skater 2 back in the day you just pick a level and it puts you there and you have no idea what to do. but its fun cause you just intuitively press the buttons on your controller and discover shit. new games have a popup saying "press triangle to grind on a rail" fuck you bitch let me learn that shit myself.
>>729259106>And if you have an audience that has patience problems they will dump and refundfuck 'em, like it matters 1% of the population has ADHD
>>729259205Jesus fucking christ, somehow I'm not surprised that the guy behind GoW is a knuckledragging retard.
>>729259205God of War developers admitted in a GameDeveloper'sConference segment that they watched DSPGaming when designing their games. David Jaffe's fuckup in Metroid Dread and DSPGaming paved the way for Metroid Prime 4. https://youtu.be/CWBJk7gY-eA?t=15 literal game devs talking about watching DSPGaming playing their game and how they designed it for retards like him.
>>729256601I played the xenoblade chronicles 3 dlc a few months back. it's been years since I played it, but it did exactly that, which in all honesty was a little annoying because it didn't include any of the prior knowledge stuff in the full tutorial reminder list thing so I had zero recollection of how half the game worked, and it wouldn't tell me how. pretty good game though, didn't overstay its welcome (by much).
>>729255318Every game has a tutorial, it's just a matter of how well it disguises it.
>>729255961DSP maxing
>>729258591>game devs don't actually play video gamesDesigning video games and playing them are two entirely different skill sets. You can do both, but it's very possible to be talented at one but not the other. I doubt every shmup fan that routinely 1cc's games can actually design and implement patterns of their own, or that everyone that can perfect clear character action games can design and implement their own enemy AI patterns. Completely different skill sets.
>>729259516You don't need to be good at games to understand why extremely overbearing and verbose tutorials turn off most players.And don't give me that "b-but the kids" shit, there's enough market research out there for these AAA devs to know that most gamers are in their late 20s/early 30s at this point.
>>729255580Even back when manuals were a thing, games still had tutorials.And nobody read manuals anyway.
>no mandatory tutorial>people with low iq/fucked up attention spans refuse to do the optional tutorial, read a manual, or figure it out themselves then drop the game because it's too confusing and they don't know how to play>less word of mouth>less sales>game might even fail entirely and be a financial failure, net loss of millions of dollars>tutorial>prevents people with low iq/fucked up attention spans from dropping the game>everyone else lets out a frustrated sigh but continues playing anyway>game gets better word of mouth>sales successThat's just how it is nowadays.
>>729255403I remember how I was insanely hyped about Okami but the tutorial dragged on for HOURS, making me lose interest before even starting the game properly. Everything had to be explained like I was a lobotomy patient. And it was slow as fuck, to make matters worse.
>>729260074Text speed is abysmal in some games. Ocarina of Time gets me mad when I can't punch through the owl or other NPCs speaking. Seriously people don't bitch enough about the Zelda owl compared to Navi.
>>729259341fuck you, it should tell you the controls so you don't faff around like a retard
>>729259432Not even a minute into this horseshit. My immediate thought it "fuck the marker, what's further downstream?". When I play games, I identify the "correct path" and intentionally go there last. I look for shit off the beaten path.
>>729260290
>>729260353first videogame?
>>729259616Not true and I suspect you weren't alive back then. A lot of 1990s and early 2000s games were suspected of colluding with the PrimaGuide/strategy guide industry to sell copies by obfuscating game content. Not to mention trying to fight used games/rentals by putting important information in the manuals. Metal Gear Solid 1 is full of annoying tutorials that interrupt you, but it also has vital information in the case and manual for your information. The problem is worse now because instead of combating used games/rentals they're designing tutorials to prevent you from hitting the under <2hours Steam refund mark and preventing people from quitting games from difficulty aka Zoomers and Gen Alpha.
>>729260290Status of ass: BLASTED
>>729260542Fun fact he alternatives between the order of>No>Yesto>Yes>NoAnd "Did you get all that? and "Would you like to hear that again". That motherfucker was devious, I don't know how he escaped the criticism while Navi took the fall. The current discourse is yellow paint.
>>729260724He was in Link's Awakening too. Literally the "enjoying the game? let me slow this down for you FUCKER". Every time I think about replaying Link's Awakening I dread meeting Kaopara Faggorot the owl.
Only a matter of time before this happens to Nintendo toohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKMD4t2Dbl8
>>729261025Metroid Prime 4 is literally this.
>>729261096not really
>>729259956Disguise the tutorial in a captcha styled puzzleIf you can solve the first room without any problem you keep playing without interruptionIf you fail to put the square block in the square hole the game now knows you're retarded and forces tutorials on you while painting everything yellow and activating Witcher vision
>>729261025>we'll talk more later>*keeps talking*
>modern players hate losing and will blame a game and not their own inexperience>players hate anything that smells like a tutorial and will expect the dev to somehow teach them while they're barely making an effort to learn from their mistakeshow do you resolve this?
>>729259106You don't have an actual argument just pure seethe. You want to reject the premise of the thread when it comes to shitting on young people but then you turn around and agree with it so you can also shit on the games that logically contradict the shit you were JUST spewing.
>>729261291Play NES and SNES era games if you want to learn how to design games without tutorials.
>>729261372I don't think modern players would survive nes games
>>729255318jap game tutorials are often terrible and overwhelmingly repressive
>>729261372Those games had a twenty-page mandatory book included with every copy, anon
>>729255318Competent devs will just make tutorials part of the game without the player explicitly realising that they're being taught something. The first few minutes of Ravenholm in Half Life 2 are basically a tutorial, even though nothing is written anywhere and you dont have some dickhead talking in your earhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjMHTRmSBA
>>729261368t. illiterate zoomer
>>729261291
>>729261291simple, you keep the tutorial running the whole game, introducing and explaining concepts as they prop up in-game. plenty of games do this.
>>729261372like consider how much people passionately railed against silksong having one (potentially) bad walkback and think about how NES and SNES games were often built around punishing you for repeated failure with extremely long walkbacks/replaying the goddamn game
>>729261494Yep it's time to kill yourself
>>729261372What now?
>>729261580kirby games are made for 8 year old girls
>>729261539>"modern games suck, old games gooder">make an old-style game>"n-no, not like that!!"A tale as old as time
>>729261539People have raged about long checkpoints and game overs for decades. Old games were short though so that kind of padding made sense
>>729261637Considering Sakurai paid out of pocket to have a youtube channel just for tutorials, I think Kirby only does it because the dude loves explaining things to an audience.
>>729255318Deus Ex did tutorials the best. It's in the game, so you don't need to read a manual, and it's a separate mode from the main campaign so those who already know the game can immediately get to the real game.
How big of an issue are hard games really? Aren't Souls-likes and Hollow Knight-likes super popular? Don't people pog over running back to the boss and learning how to parry every attack?
>>729261696i hate that long haired fuck
>>729261291You make the game a glorified movie, or make it so all the player has to do is brainlessly mash buttons to give the illusion of engaging action.
>>729261025>that 1-1 callbackno way fag, too soulful
>>729261686balancing the punishment for failure is just part of balancing a game. You say that a long walkback is "padding" but having a walkback if you lose changes how the encounter plays out significantly.Like you're way more likely to do whatever it takes to win if you have severe punishment waiting for you for dying at a boss, and doing whatever it takes to avoid a bad result is typically more fun than arbitrarily limiting yourself to make a boss more interesting because there's no risk to dying anyway
>>729261808>skip the tutorial>"wtf this game sucks how do you play it">refund and tell your friends not to buy it
There are some games that need better tutorials really, because they turn into wiki shit games otherwise. But shit like "here's this wiki page for you to read" or "do this now and OBJECTIVE COMPLETE" are shit tutorials.
>>729255318I have one friends who hates tutorials at the start of a game, not if its a small tutorial that shows up when the mechanic is learned or needed, but that lead to moments were he hates games he played because he doesnt know what to do while everyone else who played the tutorials did, like barotrauma for example
>refuse to learn from tutorials>game calls you a fucking idiot and tells you how to get a refund>https://youtu.be/VTl1enh73pQ
>>729255318Thank you for posting Link without his shirt on. It has lifted my spirits, Anon. Thank you.
>forced tutorials>remove player agency>forget the classic show don't tell method>cater to focus test groups that just want to be paid and leave instead of the people that are your market demographic
>>729255631>BOTW had a brilliant tutorialyou are a retard
>>729262417A walkback isn't challenging, it's tedious. The encounter plays out differently because the player is annoyed and a little bit more desperate to not have to do the same shit over and over again. These sections literally only exist to waste the player's time, no skill is being expressed here and nothing interesting is happening. In old games it objectively is padding, and it's doubly true when you add game overs to that question, which again is fine because those games are short.This "risk of dying" shit is asinine too, the risk is that you start the fight again and you're not allowed to proceed until you win. It's this type of shit which gave rise to the dogshit "drop all of your exp/currency" when you die shit as well, which also adds absolutely nothing to the game except a little bit of tedium.
I like tutorials because once the tutorial is over I can play the game. Many game designers parade about this idea of tutorials being bad and you need to teach the player to play the game while they're playing it. All they do is make the entire fucking game a tutorial and I hate it.
>>729261291Try to cram as much information in a single page (slideshow) tutorial as possible, include moving "gifs" (like animations) should the character doing said actions or engaging with the mechanics.Keep the wording simple and easy to understand, even if the mechanics themselves can go pretty in-depth.
>>729263158I like when they introduce a new mechanic with about an hour of gameplay left and you only use it a couple times.
>>729262876But that's the thing, man. By your thinking a game shouldn't even HAVE a fail state because the point is that the player learns, expresses their skill and moves on and everything outside of that is a waste of time. At that point, should the boss even repeat attacks that the player can consistently dodge? But that in general doesn't really fall in line with understanding of how risk and reward interact in games. Riskier things, things backed with significant punishment for getting them wrong are more exciting to play and especially to win. Roguelikes are popular because being punished for failure by having to do it all again is exciting. Climbing games are becoming increasingly popular for much the reasons that climbing is popular in real life, because it's an endurance test with a (relatively speaking) sky-high cost if you ever fuck up. Not to say that walkbacks are inherently good, every game has to weigh what level of punishment for failure is right for what they're going for, but occasionally threatening you with making you do something you don't want to do again is not an inherently bad decision. Displaying endurance and consistency is skill expression.
I like good tutorialsHere's a good tutorial
>>729255403>I realized that players were barely reading the instructions in the first placeThis seems to be true.I came across a thread the other day on a different site where apparently a lot of people were shocked to discover the way to complete the tutorial in Kingdom Come Deliverance is to look at the instructions on screen and follow them. The thread was labelled a "PSA" and seemed to think they were revealing some sort of secret. The game literally tells you exactly what to do in text.
>>729263759Keep in mind a lot of people barely speak English and are low IQ these days.
>>729263620remember in the 2010s where occasionally you'd hear that bosses were bad design because having a wall that stops your progress forces you to learn the encounter was offputting and "video-gamey?"
>>729260353okay check this out you start the game and it tells you nothingyou try and move the stick: it worksyou try and move the other stick, that also does something.repeat and you will learn intuitively how everything works. let me share you an anecdote of when i played breath of the wild for the first time:>was walking and tried to hit something in the air>died a shield surf out of nowhere>"holy shit that was cool as fuck">"wait... how the fuck did i do that">spend a minute trying to shield surf again>i now know how to shield surfno tutorial, didnt watch a youtube guide, i just intuitively learned how to shield surf in the same way you would learn something in real life.
>>729263749Here's another good tutorial
Modern Nintendo games have horrible tutorials. Pokemon ZA's tutorial is almost 4 hours long. it's only bearable because the game is letting you play, but it never stops talking at you. Mario and Luigi Brotherhood was so bad that I dropped the game. The tutorial really never stops in that game. You feel like you're being handheld after hour or five hours. Perfect example of why pirating gives you a better experience than a paying customer
>>729263620>By your thinking a game shouldn't even HAVE a fail stateI literally outlined what the fail state is in my post. You died, and you redo the fight again. That's a valid fail state. In a platformer, you die and have to redo the part of the level again. Your logic, when taken to the extreme you keep trying to put mine in, says that checkpoints should not exist at all. The entire game should be completed in one life because that is the ultimate expression of skill, and the punishment for failure is the worst it can be short of making you buy the game again.It's a balancing act. The issue with the runback is that it's grading you on a completely different set of skills before you're even allowed to attempt the thing you're actually stuck on. Eventually you will optimise it and it will become nothing but a little bit of tedium you have to suffer through before you can actually try again, and when that little bit of tedium becomes too annoying it can completely overshadow any relief you get from actually beating the challenge laid out before you. That's exactly how I felt after doing the Pantheon of Hallownest and getting that shitty ending, but that's an extreme case and only exists as an optional thing so I won't shit on it too much.
>>729262737You can tackle the tutorial shrines in any order. The enviromental impact of the cold is explained naturally as are the reactions to the player and world, ie if you're frozen by an ice keese you will take more damage. Cold water affects you. The game physics are explained in a hands off approach as you get the tablet Sheikah abilities. An experienced player can get through it quickly. The best way to handle it would to have a hidden mechanic that unlocks all the shrines abilities at once and lets you skip it, but at most the game is expecting half an hour before you get the paraglider and you can fuck off in NG+ runs. It isn't a nightmare compared to how bad other games do it, it's even better than the majority of 3D Zelda games first hours of tutorial. I wrote too much but basically you're a jackass. I wish more games were either like Breath of the Wild tutorial or had a tutorial in the main menu and it left you alone for the entire game. Pokemon Red and Blue didn't have tutorials and they were challenging for the target demographic. Clearly not enough handholding because Pokemon Let's Go remakes made them even more easier and condescending for the MODERN AUDIENCE OF RETARDS who need to be told they can't fight Brock if they don't have a single super effective move. Yeah, you can't even enter Brock's gym. MODERN AUDIENCE LOL RETARDS REDDIT GEN Z GEN ALPHA ADHD.
>>729255318I despise tutorialsIt's literally like making you show your work to the math teacherBut I despise getting >HOW DO I DO THISmessages even moreHonestly I hate game devving because of retards who unironically would not be able to solve the captchaI wish my demographic was literally only people of high IQ but you always have to account for the biggest fucking mouth breather because their review score is worth the same as a regular person's and they bitch and moan a lot more I fucking hate gamers so fucking much
>>729263989>Pokemon ZA's tutorial is almost 4 hours long. it's only bearable because the game is letting you play, but it never stops talking at you.This is why I stopped playing Pokemon games. I got 7 fucking hours into Moon and it was still treating me with less intellectual respect than Red/Blue did back in the 90s. Haven't looked back since.
>>729263989Average person is literally too stupid to realize they're in a tutorial.
>>729255318The game is the tutorial just play it
>>729258650>People aren't retardsYou guys just play games. You don't have to deal with players. Unironically release something and see how much seethe you get when you don't even add something as simple as >CLICK THIS BUTTON TO GO FORWARD You people live in some kind of fantasy land The average player is a mouth breathing phone poster who lives in the Philippines
>>729264318You are a big game publisher like Ubisoft. You do internal playtesting and focus groups with kids and teenagers. All of them say the game was too hard or the lost internet. A lot of them say "why am I doing this". The head management tells the game developers to address all this feedback. Nintendo took a page out of this game design when making Metroid Prime 4. It's why there's incessant fucking talking NPCs over the mic in modern games everywhere. Playtesters and ADHD Gen Z and Gen Alpha with severe literacy problems, notice why I said mic. Most games have this nagging tutorial audio as well because ILLITERACY IS RAMPANT.You address all the playtesters feedback and understand you are insulting the player's intellect but who makes the decision? The upper management guys, your boss' boss. You implement the nagging and all the fixes to keep your job. Welcome to AAA game design and modern games since at least 2010.
>>729264808This is why the industry (outside of mobile since we know it's never going to die) needs to crash and non-mobile vidya needs to return to being a niche hobby for basement-dwelling losers.
>>729264251>That's a valid fail state. In a platformer, you die and have to redo the part of the level again. Your logic, when taken to the extreme you keep trying to put mine in, says that checkpoints should not exist at all. The entire game should be completed in one life because that is the ultimate expression of skill, and the punishment for failure is the worst it can be short of making you buy the game againLot of people genuinely like doing Iron Man runs of games because of that. It's a balancing act dependent on the game, as you say. I did the long version of the walkback everyone complains about in Silksong and I thought it was fine, I felt pressured to use everything at my disposal because of the threat of doing it again so it only took a few brief attempts. Speedy platforming is also part of the fun in Silksong, so it didn't really feel like my time was being wasted.The worst thing is when you have something that's lengthy and low risk next to a sharp, high risk difficulty spike. That I don't really find very fun, when it's equivalent to a long unskippable cutscene. If it's more like an ongoing challenge with some kind of resource management I'm more generally fine with it. I didn't hate Pantheon that much because it rarely felt like I could just turn my brain off and allow things to happen. Peaks of Yore (and games like it) is an easy example where the ultimate challenge in that game is a mountain that takes over an hour to climb with many areas where you instantly die and restart if you mess up. It literally just wouldn't be nearly as fun to succeed at without the agonizing punishment for failure looming out of view 24/7.
The average zoomer and gen alpha kid can't get through Pokemon Red and Blue because they can't even read. They'll get stuck after Misty Gym and would never even reach Lt Surge. Illiterate generations. >>729264341>>729263989This is why the games are designed this way. Zoomers and Alpha gens cannot read even at the 5th grade level.
>>729264808We need more Itagakis, rest in peace.
>>729256064you can easily anticipate player opinions because you are a player and you are looking at the situation from the point of view of a player. in other words you are not shifting perspective. of course the presented player opinion seems intuitive to you, it might as well be your own.meanwhile a developer trying to see his own game from the perspective of a player - this is an almost impossible challenge even for people who do have decent theory of mind.1. it's quite challenging to see other people's games from a player perspective once you are a developer because becoming a developer permanently alters the way you see all games. perhaps you can remember how you used to see games as a child vs. now. the gulf between players and developers is at least that big, probably bigger.2. a developers' own games are special because we know them too well. we know aspects a player could never know. we even know alternative versions of our games that we had planned before it became what it is now. consider that a puzzle game is impossible to play-test without outside help because the developers know the solution to every puzzle already. now consider that actually all games are like that in subtle ways.
>>729264808You don't even have to be a Big AAA studio. Your game is fucking cooked as an indie if you get review bombed by retards who can't read the basic promptYou have to keep in mind that even if the highest IQ player understands everything, they're only going to play the game, go>This is good/fine, I understand Then when they're done, they exit out and don't interact with said game anymore. You have to make an extremely exceptional game for someone to go >This is worthy enough for me to give it 5 stars and give it a good review.This is not the case with retards. The moment a retard doesn't understand something their first instinct is to either review bomb the game, bitch and moan at the dev or seethe about it somewhere else. >I DON'T UNDERSTAND! THIS GAME IS BROKEN! I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROGRESS! 0 STARS! 90% of retards will be like this unless the game actually fucking handholds you every single step of the wayThe entire issue isn't even sales, it's fucking reviews and this gay fuck star system oppression where the dumbest fucking retard has the same voting capabilities as the highest IQ autist. And if you get enough negative reviews what does the average person think when they see the game?>Oh it must be broken, I'm not going to bother with this. There's no way to filter out retards from non-retards unless you're out to make Factario where just even looking a screenshot will make the average retard have his eyes glaze over. The entire system is broken.
>>729265029>>729264887kek that nigga was so hardcore. While making the original Xbox 360 Ninja Gaiden 2 he got feedback from playtesters that it was too hard. So he made those sections even harder.>Kikizo: The level of difficulty was described in one memorable review I read - Edge magazine's - as a "design flaw" and not a "badge of hardcore honour" because it limits what weaker players can get out of the game. How would you react to that?>Itagaki: It was done intentionally of course. The testers who tested this game went nuts. At first it was easier, but when the testers said "this is too difficult", I made it even more difficult. [everyone laughs]>Kikizo: So in fact, contrary to that review, you would describe it as a badge of hardcore honour.>Itagaki: That's correct. Source: https://games.kikizo.com/features/itagaki_interview.asp
>>729265203The Chinese are the biggest offenders of this on Steam. If the Chinese dislike your game you will be fucked on Steam reviews which affects how the algorithm promotes your games.
>>729256012Yes ive noticed this in online comments often some people come to the opposite conclusion of what something in an article says.
>>729265128gay fucking drawing. yes i will skip tutorial. yes i will shit on a game if it sucks cock
games should literally lock you in a room and keep you there until you've hit every single button and used every single ability in every possible way
>>729265593You are why tutorials are not optional.
Tutorials are best when you dont realise they are tutorialsWhich is something of a lost art nowadays
>>729255318The Japanese solution to this is to force the tutorial with unskipable cutscenes.
>>729265593Fucking dumbass.
>>729261291You don't bother with designing around that first group, they'll never be satisfied
If you know any kids who use tablets and smartphones give them a classic 1990s game like Zelda 1, Metroid 1, or Mario 1. They will put it down after dying once and quickly go back to their TikTok and YouTube Shorts. The competition isn't just other games, it's all entertainment. In the past that was true with outdoor activities and movies but not as prevalent. Technology was impressive, it's why Toy Story 1 got so much attention.
Did they figure out any pitfalls regarding shit gameplay and storytelling? No? Then I don't care.
>>729263895>you start the game and it tells you nothingrefund
>>729255580>All redheads on the rightI wonder if the creator of that image likes redheads.
>>729266323youre the dumb ass 80 iq nigger that needs tutorials to do anything
>>729255318This is a problem that happens when game companies refuse to hire actual gamers
>>729264316That's not why he called you a retard, anon.I think you should work on your media literacy when examining articles.If you are still stumped just call me a name and I'll help you out.
