Do you agree with Jonathan Blow that Elden Ring and Breath of the Wild are pinnacles of bad modern design and developers would be better served focusing on smaller-scale puzzle-oriented games that harness the full power of the medium?
no not really sorry he seems like a pseued and looks bald
I didn't play Breath of the Wild as I am not a child but Elden Ring clearly resonates with its players, despite all its flaws. So this guy is an idiot.
>>729327276Both games are just a bunch of random crap scattered across a huge map. There's no design in any meaningful sense. You're a sucker for defending a game you haven't even played just to look cool on /v/.
>>729326883lmao no
>>729326883I cant take the opinion of a man whos only contribution to gaming is super mario but with rewind seriously,
>>729326883The witness is no less guilty.>elden ring is just a big ole map full of bosses>the witness is just a big ole map full of line puzzles
>>729326883I played only a little of both BotW and TotK, but I liked them. And I played all of Elden Ring and loved it, but I won't pretend that it's perfect. I like both of Jon Blow's games, so I by definition agree with what he thinks is good game design, so at least some of his complains are likely to be valid.
>>729326883i can't stop thinking that's an AI generated Blow. Mindbreak status?
>>729326883>Elden Ring and Breath of the Wild are pinnacles of bad modern designYES!>developers would be better served focusing on smaller-scale puzzle-oriented games that harness the full power of the medium?NO!Just make a Red Dead/Skyrim clone if you want open-world. Make running around fun for fuck's sake.
>>729326883>Johnny BlowWhy would I care about the opinions of a guy named "Blowjob"?
>>729326883No. He is autistic, but the kind where he can't think outside of his very rigid little box. If you tried to get him to analyze the design of Limgrave, all he'd come up with is enough rope to hang his credibility as a game designer.
Elden Ring is an immensely fantastic game made by absolute masters with alot of love and care.It mogs the fuck out of Breath of the Wild in most areas, but Elden Ring's focus isn't to be some complex puzzle thing, it's a game about overcoming struggle as all their games are. It's a game about going to the ends of the earth to triumph, it is the greatest version of the heroes journey ever to be put to the medium of videogames.ER is what people imagined Zelda would somewhat be like in the far flung future after OOT. ER's shortcomings is quests and NPCs and things, they're more like signposts and that's just fromsofts focus to put all their dev efforts on animation/bosses and core combat, i.e actual gameplay
I want to hear what Soulja Boy thinks about elden ring before I pick a side
To be fair I am not even sure why he is even popularIs he one of those guys who worked at blizzard or something?
>>729328773oh fuck off. Elden Ring is nothing more than head to checkpoint to kill next boss, the open world aspect is irrelevant
>>729327716You are completely retarded. Everything in Elden Ring is hand placed and hand made. There is no random scattering other than foliage and this is always placed by a person.The games aren't procedural they don't just let the game itself dictate where stuff goes.The point of ER is to have large landscapes and distant goals. You can't fill a giant open world with a dense cluster of 'real stuff to do' otherwise the game would literally take 15 years to make, and it'd be like 1000 hour playtime.The point of ER is NOT to go into every nook and cranny in the overworld and treat it like acollectathon. The point is to just go and brave the bosses and push through the story and reach the end, in whatever direction you choose to do so.If you find a weird chair in a corner with a corpse on it surrounded by hostile flowers, but it's 'pointless because there's nothing here other than some item' you're retarded. That is there to not waste your time with overt purpose but to give you something to find, if you want to find something, but it's not necessary to find at all.You're not actually supposed to 'full clear' a game like Elden Ring the first time you play it. You're not supposed to scan the walls for caves and find every single thing there is in the game. You're meant to just play the game, go where you feel you want to go, and find what you find. Another player will find different things to you, solve different problems, use different weapons/items. That's why the games have asynchronus multiplayer.You finish the game and you see some ghost or summon using some large cleaver you've never seen at all your entire playthrough, you wonder where this was, where you missed it, what places you didn't go. That's the magic.Zelda however, it's open world was literally just a checkbox and the forced collectathon aspect made it an actual chore to play as you have to go around the entire map with a metal detector looking for every stupid little pile of shit.
>>729328773For me ER's biggest shortcoming is the runtime. I got tired around Fire Giant, and was livid when I found out I had 2 more areas to go in the main path. I completely skipped most of the secret areas. If you're good enough at video games, you can skip runebearers, but if you're average or worse you pretty much need to do everything so you're a high enough level to make it through the end, effectively making it an 80+ hour game for a single playthrough.It's definitely a great game and I basically agree with everything else you said. I dropped BotW after like 2 hours because it really didn't feel compelling.
>>729328878Braid was one of the first somewhat notable indie games in the early era of digital sales and this fat headed douchebag made it so people still inexplicably care about what he says and does.
>>729329350That isn't ER's shortcomings, that's your shortcomings. See>>729329157You were not supposed to treat the game like a full clear. I know gamers think like this, but if you are fatigued, it's because you fatigued yourself. Fromsoft scattered stuff all over the place, so that no matter where you went, you would find things. But the goal is just to level up, defeat bosses and play with the weapons you want to play with. You don't actually need to go into every single fucking cave and dungeon and get every single fucking spirit ash etc in the game. Those are there as a thing to find, not a thing you must find/have.
>>729329157It's really fucking boring and lacks purpose
>>729329514The purpose is to overcome struggle and challenge, and immerse yourself in a strange world and it's story, which there is an immense amount of story not spoonfed to you.You are a zoomer with brainrot who has probably never read a book and can't appreciate anything that doesn't marvel slam them with a quippy one liner.
I don't really view puzzles as games.
>>729326883Elden Ring is the greatest game of all time. BotW is one of the worst. So, he’s half right.
>>729329625Overcome "struggle and challenge" is literally every video game ever made. Jesus christ i cant tell if ER hipsters are trolling with their youtube pseud talk.
>>729329710They're not. The best games have puzzles integrated into them while still pushing interesting themes and other more engaging gameplay being the focus.Ico, Portal, OOT, these are games that have the perfect amount of puzzle vs gameplay. Puzzles for puzzles sake is retarded and humans don't need to be IQ tested like robots to feel joy.
>>729329157BotW has a higher Metacritic than ER. Cope.
>>729327134well thats because he is bald, anon
>>729329485>You were not supposed to treat the game like a full clear.How did you derive that from my post where I explicitly talk about ignoring content? Do you even read before replying, or is it just reflexive for you?
>>729329754This but the opposite.
>>729326883>every game should be a puzzle game
NoJonathan blows
>>729326883Sounds like to me that he got filtered.
>>729326883THE RAPED
>>729326883yes level design in demons souls and dark souls 1 was a lot more interesting than in elden ring or ds3
>>729329798No, other games don't offer real struggle. They are designed to be consumed and for you to see the credits. Games like The Witcher or God of War or Spiderman or The Last of Us etc etc are just made to be waded through like a shallow pool. You are not being challenged you are being satisfied and or tricked into thinking you pushed yourself but you didn't.There are no ER 'hipsters', and you using the term hipsters in 2025 has you pinned now actually as even worse than a zoomer, a failed millenial who spent his entire life being bad at videogames with tens of thousands of hours of deleted life for something you are now confronted that you were never good at or invested in.After pursuing and beaten Demon's Souls in 2010 it changed my entire outlook and rewired my reward systems to now try harder and to give up less often and to push to the finish line in almost everything I do. It's what made me go from a neet in 2012 with no prospects to now being very successful with 2 kids and a wife and a very good career, basically I stopped being a loser because a videogame helped reprogram me like therapy to stop giving up at the slightest bit of adversity. After Demon's Souls I became OK with sleeping on a mattress on the floor in a sharehouse working 2 jobs to save money to buy a bunch of expensive work tools to then practice on building things in the garage, working on small jobs, taking on big commitments and projects and ultimately I now run my own building firm. Pre Demon's Souls me would have given up very early on.Games like Ninja Gaiden and what not that are 'hard' never did the same thing because the express goal was simply to be hard for style points sakes, whereas Demon's Souls instilled a purpose in it, and one with self reflection constantly embedded.Future CEO's you will find all will have played Dark Souls, and the losers are the ones that played autowin press 1 button to watch a ballet experiences like Spiderman.
>>729326883Elden Ring is a good game, despite being unnecessarily bloated. BotW is Mario Sunshine: Zelda edition and for that reason alone I do not find it very palatable. However, Jonathan Blow has never made a good game, ever. Nintendo, even a shitty as it has become, can game dev circles around this retard.
>>729330204The level design in ER is the same as those games. Leyndell and the catacombs and all these areas are just as involved as Demon's Souls etc was. You're just annoyed for some reason there's open fields between these zones. The point of the game is to have those open vistas with the large castle on the horizon and for you to find your way there and run into things along the way. They already made the tight super dense connected souls games, ER was them trying out something else, and it works, but they likely won't go as big as ER was again.
>>729327276>Elden Ring clearly resonates with its playersIt resonates with normalfags who have never even heard of Demon's Souls
>>729330251>autistic person comes into contact with someone with different taste in video games>his only explanation is that it must be some kind of trick
Source on that statement? Blow's opinion is only ever worth anything when taking about puzzle games and even then it's watered down by him having to make a mountain out of a molehill out of everything because he's on camera combined with the fact that he's on camera at all and has to entertain his audience at all so he's not giving the game his full attention. I don't think any streamer's opinion on a game is "admissable" for that reason. They're distracted and putting on a show.
>>729326883nah botw was a fine game, totk was actual trash. elden ring was decent but sloppified version of dark souls.
>>729328523I see what you mean but I think it’s just a fancy portrait photo with intense lighting
They're certainly not perfect games but still miles ahead of his garbage.
>>729330662Elden Ring is literally everything Dark Souls is but just with more stuff. It's not less quality than Dark Souls in any metric, literally every system, feature, graphical element, story and game mechanic feature is elevated.You have some kind of retardation rose tinted glasses who is completely skipping over the very poor level design of Crystal Caves, Darkroot Garden, Izalith etc etc. The truth is that Fromsoft has never made a 'perfect' game there is always something they could have done better, but they are earnest in their attempts each time and it's always a fascinating, compelling and incredibly well made game.Dark Souls 2 has things that are better than Dark Souls 1, things that are worse.Dark Souls 3 has things that are better than Dark Souls 2 and 1, things that are worse.Elden Ring has things that are better than Dark Souls 1 and 3, but worse than Dark Souls 2. All of the games have things worse than Bloodborne, all of them have things better than Bloodborne.Fromsoft is pretty much just pushing different directions of their focus each time. I would suspect the next fromsoft title will probably push NPC/Quest stuff more than before as Nightreign clearly shows they understand its where they're lacking and trying to do more in that area, but, if/when they do so, it would probably mean things that they previously did well as a main focus may suffer. For Fromsoft to make some kinda grand interwoven npc questlines with all this complexity it may mean they have to sacrifice on total content amount of bosses and things like this, which player will then complain about too.
>>729329809>Puzzles for puzzles sake is retarded???Puzzles can be fun on their own, what are you talking about?>humans don't need to be IQ tested like robots to feel joyNo idea where this part is coming fromAgree with the rest of your post btw
>>729331151It's pretty obvious what I meant, I said it.Games where the mission is just to solve the puzzles and move onto the next puzzles are retarded. ICO would be an incredibly game even without the puzzles and it was just a linear traversal with story, but the puzzles enhance it naturally, by being natural puzzles.Games where it's literally framed like an IQ test with nonsensical scenarios of weird blocks and floating nonsensical platforms and objects blocking your path and shit halting your progress in this way is just inane bullshit that is what you would to to test if monkeys can communicate. It's pointless fruitless time wasting.Oh wow, you figured out my stupid puzzle where the green door that intermittently turned red had a key that only spawned under the purple block after you pushed it along the green track onto the red square. You are so clever holy fuck, what retarded bullshit can I come up for you to solve next.
>>729326883>The big current thing is le bad>What I like is le good>Let me make this seem like an objective argument when it's not, because I'm autisticMany such cases.
>>729332630Blow is a huge hypocrite, like I'm not some highminded artgamer, I get filtered by puzzles all the fucking time, but I like some roll parryslop from time to time, I haven't bought or played call of duty in like 15 years.Blow will cry about how most games are just "shooting dudes in the face" and proceed to put hundreds of hours into fucking warzone and the annual call of duty release. He doesn't even have the stones to put down the lab grown dopamine game, the controller equivalent of clash of clans, and then turn around and pretend he's some kind of tortured poet artiste who stands for something.
>>729326883Elden Ring? Ya, it's open world is pretty shite and boring, basically the skyrim of souls game for cowards that are too afraid to play the better ones BotW? Nah, still the best open world game in the last ten years easily
As much as I don't like open world games, there is something to be said of the sensation of freedom and crossing an open field that is worth exploring. This feeling was most pronounced when 3D games started showing up in the mid 90s and 00s where suddenly you didn't feel so restricted and could just goof around. It was an interesting time, but I do believe it just starts becoming self indulgent and lacking any depth to it. I do think that games definitively should focus more on making tight and well crafted level design and dungeons instead of scattershoting shit all over a giant map. And I particularly do not like when they pad out a game with content that is happhazard and rushed with recycled enemies and bosses just so you can get a fire bangle +2. I really do not enjoy that at all With the caveat that you can give me that content in the post game, if I really enjoyed a tight main campaign I see no problem indulging in a post game that is more fillery, but I would really preferred they made the main campaign of the game absolutely tight and well crafted. I can indulge in slop later if I'm really into the game.
>>729326883Yes. He is absolutely right.
>>729330992>I would suspect the next fromsoft title will probably push NPC/Quest stuff moreyou mean I won't have to play hide n go seek with them anymore?
>>729333052>Nah, still the best open world game in the last ten years easilyWhich means nothing since it's still worse than the classic zelda games and all open world games of the past decade are bad games.
>>729328773
>>729333379I'm sorry you don't like open world games kidgood luck with that
>>729326883Jonathan Blows Blacks
jon blow is a retard but he does not miss
>>729330251ER doesn't have "real" struggle lol wtf is wrong with you people
>>729326883Yes, both games have an abundance of empty space and an unnecessary amount of reused assets masquerading as content.You could cut half the map of both games and lose nothing of value.
>>729326883BotW was the pinnacle of good game design.Moviegame retards need to hang.
>>729326883Jon Blow is probably the only person on this planet who can speak 100% unequivocal trvke fax that I agree with and I still hate his guts.
i'm starting to realize "empty space" is just a meaningless noise retards make to bitch and whine
>>729326883why is this moron so far up his own ass
>>729328863came here to post thisctrl + F'd and didn't read any other posts
>>729326883I don't like Johnathan Blows games though nor do i like puzzle games that are not interactive in the same way that Portal is. It's easier to say that i get filtered or something when it comes to this genre. Talos Principle is alright but that's as far as I'll go.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
>>729335418Blow wishes he could make a game like Baba is You.
>>729326883First part yehFuck puzzle games tho
>>729329157>he point of ER is to have large landscapes and distant goals.When I'm traveling in Shadow of the Colossus, I feel a distinct atmosphere and purpose to the travel.I know where I'm going, I know what I'm going to do when I get there.In Elden Ring, I feel like I'm wandering aimlessly until I hit the next piece of content.I only have a vague sense of direction, and I don't know what I'm heading towards until I get there. The only thing stringing me along is the vague notion of "becoming the Elden Lord," a goal which I to this day do not understand the purpose or appeal of.In SotC, the travel is a necessary part of the game's flow. It's the cooldown from the last fight and the anticipation for the next.In ER, the travel is just... getting somewhere. And very often you'll find that when you get somewhere, it's something you've already done before or a reward you have no need of.>The point of ER is NOT to go into every nook and cranny in the overworld and treat it like acollectathon.But the design of Souls games is absolutely about this, always has been. Exploring to find new items, weapons, spells, armor so that you can prepare for the fights ahead IS the methodology. It's even reinforced narratively through item descriptions. If you want to know more, you must explore more.ER is absolutely no exception to this design.
>>729326883both are pretty good! but tears of the kingdom is actually soul deprived goyslop.all i want now is still to go back to the more closed worlds, but zelda producer doesnt understand why we would want another game like majora or TP so :(
>>729330653It's probably made up. I don't watch his streams, but I do listen to some interviews and see clips of his sometimes, and he seems generally positive on ER. There's a clip of him malding at the game while playing it, but other than that I've only seen him say positive things about it.
>>729326883Why would anyone listen to the guy that designed The Witness?
>>729326883>Do you agree with Jonathan Blow that Elden Ring and Breath of the Wild are pinnacles of bad modern design and developers would be better served focusing on smaller-scale Yes like actual Souls games instead of open world slop. I sincerely hopes From never makes another open world game, and not because I hate Elden Ring, but if you have any actual critical analysis skills for videogames you know what I mean.>puzzle-oriented games that harness the full power of the medium?No that's just puzzle game fans autism.
>>729335972>I sincerely hopes From never makes another open world gameGot bad news for you buddyER is their most successful game yet. The fucking DLC got nominated for GOTY, for Christ's sake.They're never going back.
>>729326883i think puzzles are lame and gay too, puzzles have no replay value and are all about revealing obfuscation rather than legitimate problem solvingthe best games are about reacting quickly to things and changing your plans accordingly to achieve the best outcome
>>729338562>a game needs to be replayable to be goodLow iq take
>dev who only makes puzzle games: every game should be a puzzle gameum, noIt's really annoying seeing successful people think they know what's best for everything.
>>729326883>Elden Ring and Breath of the Wild are pinnacles of bad modern designyes>developers would be better served focusing on smaller-scale puzzle-oriented games that harness the full power of the medium?ehhhh
>>729329157>Everything in Elden Ring is hand placed and hand madeWhich is why giants are everywhere despite making no cohesion with the environment, bosses of the catacombs are just regular enemies with slightly higher XP, the levelling is all sorts of wrong with the optional dungeons, and every single fight is just spamming B for 3 hours.Give me a fucking break
>>729338562elden ring fights are a puzzle
>>729330382>the catacombsThe same catacombs that "are optional" and "you don't have to do them"?The same catacombs that is nothing but boring shit after boring shit?The same catacombs that don't seriously got reason to exist?
>>729333052>basically the skyrim of soulsAt least skyrim had some sort of variety
>>729326883he couldn't even get through the tutorial area in elden ringand I'd rather play elden ring than any of his games again
>>729326883Dude looks like an EVE Online avatar and hasn't made anything worthwhile since Xbox Live Arcade on the 360, so why would anyone care what the fuck he thinks? The two games he listed sell more than anything he's ever made combined, so the modern consumer has spoken as to what is perceived as the better design with their wallet on the open market.
>>729326883Jonathan Blowjob
>>729326883
>>729329157You are completely retarded. The first botw play through was literally magic. The point of botw is not to go into every nook and cranny in the overworld and treat it like a collectathon.
Half the magic and fun of BotW was the physics and I'm tired of Elden Ring fags comparing their game to it just because of the shallow open-world aspect. They play nothing alike.
>>729326883He got filtered by Elden Ring because he is expecting the game to handhold him during the early stage when you are supposed to think for yourself and assess if you can handle the enemies or not. Just like in real life when you camp in the wilderness. Like would you run up to a bear if you only have a knife? Of course not.
>>729330251holy shit i didnt know ER had fanboys this embarrassing
>>729326883>Everyone should make puzzles like me because they're my favoriteNo. Fuck off.
>>729326883he never said any of this tho
>>729326883Nope. I don't agree. :^)
>>729328081the difference is the witness doesn't pretend its anything but that, where as botw and eldin ring fill the gaps with useless shit to give the illusion that theres more to it then there is
>>729342249botw was just a physics tech demo. everything else about it is abysmal. eldin ring is a souls game spread like butter over too much toast. if you cut out ERs open world it would be better where as with botw its kinda shit either way
>>729330251Elden Ring is extraordinarily easy. I wasn't even hit by most bosses thanks to my summons.>IF YOU USED SUMMONS THEN YOU DIDN'T BEAT THE GAME!If you believe the game can only be beaten by placing arbitrary restrictions on your playstyle then every other game in the universe is just as hard as Elden Ring. You didn't beat Super Mario Bros if you ate a mushroom.
>>729326883yes. both of those games are too big and the majority of the content is just walking from one place to the other. vice city or morrowind is probably as large as an open world game needs to be. souls combat has its own set of problems.
>>729326883Yes. People give BOTW and ER a pass because they are good compared to other mainstream modern slop, but both games are far worse than previous games from their series. Pretty much every older 3D Zelda and Souls game is better than BOTW and ER.
it’s wild seeing the mental gymnastics from the schizo claiming ER is big and empty on purpose. what is this mental illness that keeps people from criticizing anything?
>>729347000It's just a tendie.
>>729328773Ludo.
>>729326883I dont trust bald peoplePeople with mustaches and no beardAnd People with glasses
>>729326883>pinnacles of bad modern designDealing 57 million damage in Expedition 33
