>Josh Sawyer, the director of Fallout: New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity, posted a controversial opinion on his X account:>"Manual save games were a mistake. They are chicken nuggies of gaming: they bring you comfort but are bad for you and poison your gaming spirit."
People call them role playing games but they're more like save scumming games
>>729336171this is why i don't play a lot western gamesalmost all of them are about save scumingi'd rather play action games that make me live with consequences and overcome things with skill rather than using my time to grind more for a better outcome
>I want to take away this feature that's totally optional and you are under no obligation to use>btw we're never ever going to fix random crashes in our games lolfuck these faggots
>old men who had to play old games and do the same level over and over and over because they didn't have save states are mad because technology moved on and they can't get that wasted time back
>the RTwP cuk who never got to BaldurIt is uncanny, doing the opposite of whatever that guy preaches this year seems like a cheat to win the gaming audience
>enjoy my game>NO NOT LIKE THAT
Sure. Can they create games that aren't buggy and are always 100% clear and responsive so the player never feels cheated or rumbled by what happens?
>>729336171eh. I don't care. yes, they have a point, that point being>save scumming renders impotent any lasting repercussions for player action or inaction, and thus the decision making process in RPGs is ultimately an opt-in affair that requires no commitment on the player's partbut I'm not personally bothered by this, and just consider it another aspect of player choice. I do agree with the sentiment, it cheapens the role playing experience, but most of the time, I'm not role playing in these games, I'm looking at it from a "fly on the wall" third person perspective, i.e. no matter what choice, I roll with it to see where it takes me, and the earlier save is just placed at junction points so I can go back and choose another path for the sake of seeing where it goes.if you're so committed to a particular path, then it falls on you to adhere to the consequences of that path. the game shouldn't have to enforce it upon you.
>No manual saves is new vegas, a massive crash fest of a game
I would be more sympathetic to the argument if the games in question were designed around emergent storytelling, risk-management, and making the best of bad outcomes. Instead they involve "specific scripted pieces of content" that "you are supposed to beat" and there's no real option to choose only modest goals, only whether you want to do some piece of content or not.Contrast that to e.g. roguelikes more broadly, or games like Mount and Blade and A Legionary's Life (you could entirely focus on just staying alive and passing by opportunities for awards and promotions, your coronae murales - awarded for being the first to storm the walls of a besieged settlement, a near-suicidal feat - and what not). And who would have thunk, people generally don't savescum in these games! Certainly not at level of pressing quicksave before every single combat encounter or skill check!
>>729336171If they seethe so hard at savescumming, why did they ship their games with F5/F9 keys binded to quick save/load by default? Stupid niggers
>>729336171What does he propose instead? Autosaves? No saving? Manual saving at least puts the responsibility in the player's hand to be diligent.
>>729336490I disagree that savescumming is inherently bad. There are some rpgs where you can get permanently screwed by enemy attacks at random.
>>729336171>Misunderstand a dialog option>[Glass him]>Oh I guess I should live with my choice instead of going back to pick the one I actually meant
>>729336171He didn't have to badmouth chicken nuggets like that
>>729336171>FNVmake hardcore mode require sleeping in a bed to save and remove fast travel, like Fallout 4>Dishonoredlimit quick saves to 5 per level on normal difficulty, remove them entirely on hard
>>729337068>reloading a previous save when you died to an enemy encounter that you weren't ready forthat's not savescumming though, unless one of the conditions of your playthrough is permadeath or something like that. savescumming is when you save at a pivotal point in the story so that you can see where one choice takes you, and then if you don't like it, you can go back to that earlier save, and choose the option that you find most aligns with your character (or that is the most rewarding in some way).an alternative definition is using save states in an emulator to bypass some obstacle, or to make overcoming something easier. i.e. you save state at the start of a particularly hard boss battle and reload it when you die, so you can avoid having to go through the level just to get to the boss again.to me it sounds likes they're talking about the first definition; they don't want players to have the option to back out of what are supposed to be meaningful choices with lasting consequences. but yeah, I guess it's not inherently bad, but like I said, it renders impotent any lasting commitment on the player's part, which is probably why they dislike it.
>>729336940He didn't propose any alternatives, just posted those two sentences.
>>729337434they can sidestep savescumming with delayed consequences. for all it's lauded I don't see a lot of those in NV.
>>729336171Then design your games so that it's not possible...
>"player choice"Unironically, gamers cannot be trusted with choice. They will choose what's bad for themselves and then leave a negative review like it's your fault. Have some confidence in your art and take the choice away, you know what the best way to experience your product looks like.
>>729337675You say that, but Kingdom Come was fucking awful with that saving mechanic. I will mod that shit immediately.
>>729336171I've never seen him be wrong about anything
>>729336171You're burying the lede, the real headline is Josh Sawyer says your chicken nuggies are spiritually poisoning your indomitable faustian white spirit
Considering his FONV "overhaul" I believe he thinks misery = fun. Which would explain why everything by Obsidian after PoE1 is trash lmao
>>729336171I mostly agree with Mr. I Hate Romances, but I've been burned by too many games that have piss poor stability and crash multiple times a session. I'm not losing hours of progress because developers don't like that I skirt around their intended experience.
>>729336171>Dishonored and Fallout: New VegasMy fuarking Heroes
I don’t disagree with this except for things like >glass himLike wtf
>>729337772KCD 1 and 2 are schizo with the saving mechanic. on the one hand, they want you to have to prepare to be in a position to save your game. in other words, you have to gather ingredients to produce a saving potion, or otherwise acquire one through other means (thievery, purchasing from shops, finding them as loot on fallen foes, etc), which implies that they want you to be mindful every time you save. they are asking you to be responsible for your own progress. on top of that, the save potions are alcoholic, and alcohol has side effects, so they're also asking you not to overdo it with the saving. makes sense right?the problem is that they'll bypass these expectations too often. you get an autosave before every single major event, at the start of most side quests, and of course time you sleep. so the game is sending you mixed signals. it wants you to be careful when hard saving, but it won't let go of your hand long enough for you to suffer for being an irresponsible saver. I guess because what >>729337675 says is true;>players will choose what's bad for themselves and then leave a negative review like it's your faultone or the other, KCD. which is it? you gonna hold my hand all game, or are you gonna let me manage my saves?
>>729337415>remove fast travelBad idea in my opinion because the game world is built around it, beyond the monorail I don't think there's any other way to get around quickly, at least you can pretend it has a cost in Hardcore mode because your hunger and dehydration still go up when using it
>>729336171I installed the unlimited save mod for KCD2 for the purpose to savescum. Devs can kiss my ass.
>>729338362I did the save but then I realized I might as well just install mods that let me auto succeed on whatever it was that I was gonna savescum
>>729338558I guess some people just can't understand nuance, but c'est la vie
>>729336171I don't really understand the take. Retrying something until you can pass is a core part of video games.If you're annoyed that now someone can do that by retrying the last 2 minutes instead of an entire level or mission then you only want arbitrary extended amounts of repetition of something they've already played.
>>729339190You just choose to roll dice until you hit snake eyes and that gives you a small dopamine kick, what nuance?
Player choice especially if it comes down to choosing one item is fucking stupid like fuck off I'll just cheat the other one into my inventory
>>729337228I would extend this position a lot further: there are games that are either simply realistic (if you fall through weak ice in UnReal World after it's been barely freezing for a week, you should have known better when it's safe to walk on ice), or at least operate on absolutely consistent internal rules. Punishing players for their mistakes seems fair because they failed to asses the predictable risks.But if e.g. a game USUALLY lets you scout ahead and inspect enemies so you can decide if you dare to engage them, but then at another time triggers a cutscene that puts you straight into combat as you pass an invisible threshold, or if the player has been gathering bear asses by their dozens and comes across a named bear that then mauls him (supposing the game hasn't already clearly established that named NPCs are always an order of magnitude stronger), then I don't really consider a death in those circumstance "the players' fault". And exceedingly few games are realistic or consistent like that, I don't think most even see it as a design criterion worth pursuing.I am very much on board with design that does its best to discourage savescumming and living with the consequences, but most games are designed in a way completely incompatible with this ideal.
>>729336171josh sawyer needs to stop being a fucking faggot.
>>729336221>>729336171I agree with them You have to live with the consequences of your actions
I agree but if you take away my save scumming I'm going to have a 'tism fit.
>>729336171Now ask Josh Sawyer, the director of Fallout: New Vegas, how many times his game crashes an hour.
>>729336171>played through both Halo and Half Life series campaigns several dozens of times on legendary/hard>Because Halo only had checkpoint saving, I can still vividly imagine every small detail and section of almost every level in Halo and how to best engage every gunfight section>Because I save scummed generously through Half Life (cause who was going to stop me?) none of the actual gameplay sections stuck with me besides the mandatory scripted events, everything else gets blurred togetherHe has a point.
>>729340484>Die in game>Refund without trying again just as the devs intend
>>729336171People play RPGs like a choose your own adventure book. Sometimes you want to see what happens down the path of a bad decision.
this is only semi-related, but in older pokemon games, the player was allowed to exit and enter a city's gym at their leisure. now, the gyms are usually set up so that you have to go through a gauntlet of trainer battles before you can reach and challenge the gym leader. however, the devs didn't account for the player's ability to leave and return at will, so it's easy for players who want to cheese the game to fight a single trainer, then leave the gym, go to the pokemon center to heal their team, and return with a party at full health before challenging each subsequent trainer, and have a fully rested party by the time they reach the gym leader.it would have been better if players were locked into a gym until either their party faints or the gym leader is defeated; that way, they'd have to invest in and manage their resources to keep their team alive. the final bout with the elite 4 was like this, so I know they could've made the rest of the game like this, too. you could argue that this wasn't an oversight and nintendo really just wanted players to be able to leave and come back when they so chose, but it still detracts from what could have been a more tense and high-stakes experience. it's only tangentially related, but it's the same psychology behind savescumming:>how can I cheese my way through this
>>729337434If they are so against it why is hedging your bets very easy to do in NV?Like I get the idea of what they are saying but there's a ton of quests that give infamy for a faction in NV unexpectedly and can fuck over an intended playthrough. I wouldnt fault anyone for reloading and just not doing those. Also would not fault anyone who killed an npc in the middle of nowhere and then reloaded after 14 quests failed
>>729336171Branching narrative paths in games is cancer, I don't want my choices to be reflected in game, I want the best story you can write. If you're making a game where save scumming matters then you are making a stupid game.
>>729337540Typical leftist bitches but offers no solutions or alternatives.
>>729336940Dark souls already solved this issue, they autosave constantly. The reason it works is none of the appeal in a souls game has anything to do with writing or narrative so you're never second guessing the choices you make, they just unfold naturally and add a bit of flavour. In fallout games you are constantly wondering if the choice you made was the most interesting narrative outcome, there's a constant desire to go back and change it.
>>729338194KCD originally wanted to use the Bed as a save point but gaming journos cried so hard that Vavra casualized the process of saving your game. Just like Vavra the little bitch added Masa Musa because UHM ACKSHULLY AN AFRICAN SCHOLAR COULD HAVE GONE THROUGH BOHEMIA IMPREGNATING ALL THE WOMEN.
>>729336171Just add an optional ironman mode like Stellaris and Deadspace have.Or make saves/checkpoints a resource.
I paid for the damn game, so I'm gon' play it however the hell I please.
I
>>729336171>make choice>reload save and make different choice>notice how the outcome is the sameThey just don't want you to notice this.In fact Bloodlines 2 doesn't let you manually save for this very reason, they want you to think they did all this work with branching dialoge with consequences while it's all smoke an mirrors. They don't want you to peek behind that curtain.
I'll mod out your silly restrictions anyway when they start annoying me, nothing personal. Just cute when dev thinks they get to decide how I use what I brought. If you want your baby only used the way you like it, maybe try not selling it.
>>729336171>Noo you have to waste your time constantly!!!>Ain't I le hecking opinionated developer guys!??!?The absolute state...
>>729336171honestly I agree
>washed up devs way past their prime giving their shitty crusty oldfag takes no one asked forcan they just stop already
