>>729543510
No Break the Targets
No Board the Platforms
"All-Star" is a joke
Broken DLC characters

>No good adventure mode
>no cutscenes or plot because Sakuri is salty his game got uploaded on YouTube a decade after it released
>both online modes gatekeeped by stinky neckbeard “pro-gamers” despite one mode supposed to be for fun and the other for challenge
>too many swordsman
>too many fire emblem characters
>Music in stages tied to games instead of specific stages, ruining a chance at unique musical atmosphere
>too many fucking non-Nintendo reps that make 0 sense
>no stages to unlock
>easy as fuck unlockable characters
It’s clear that the whole series is Sakurais personal wank

Honestly, the game balance. It is unbelievably frustrating losing at this game if you're playing online by yourself.

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Replace Inshitteroar's wasted slot with CHADow and then the game becomes a 10/10.

>>729543889
>>Music in stages tied to games instead of specific stages, ruining a chance at unique musical atmosphere
What does this mean

you just know someone sucks at this game if you can side b them with sora a thousand times on the ground (one strike repeated)

>>729543510
They wasted two slots on Banjo and Sora instead of actually good characters.

>>729543510
DLC power creep
World of Light is a chore to play and event matches should never have been made the focus because after a point you run out of original match ideas
Matchmaking is worse than Sm4sh
Looks very washed out
Barely any new stages
All the fuss over having a billion songs and they're compressed as shit and sound fucking tinny

>>729544079
>gets egged on and side b'ed

>>729544038
nta but
>Yoshi's Island can't play 5+ remixed from SMW because it's a Yoshi stage
>Mario and Mario Kart stages can't share music that fit multiple stages
>a lot of the miscellaneous songs introduced in Brawl fit their respective stages and now they're stuck to Wrecking Crew or Balloon Fight

>>729544038
You couldn’t play something like Snowman (Earthbound) on Summit (Ice Climbers) even though they’re both ice themed.

>>729544038
Let’s say there’s a Mario stage - Rosalina’s observatory. It would make sense that only Mario Galaxy music plays, right? But no, there is the options for every song in the Mario IP to play on it. Same with miscellaneous stages. Every single “other song” can play on every single “other stage” thus hundreds of nonsense song options.

>>729544280
You can’t play “Tommorow’s Passion” on the Punch Out stage despite it being Little Mac’s song. Pisses me off.

Smash peaked with Melee.

>>729544038
>Mach Rider can't be played on F-Zero stages
>Wrecking Crew songs can't be played on Mario stages
>Mario songs can't be played on Yoshi stages
>Badge Arcade, NES Remix, and Famicom medley can't be played on all retro stages

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>>729543510
Too many Smash newcomers from Brawl onwards are not fun to play against.
Too much zoning, too many disjoints, gimmicks up the ass.
Every time someone proposes the idea of reworking old fighters I wince at the idea, granted i'm under the assumption they are directed the same way current newcomers are.
Wow, good job, you got your faithful Ganondorf, he's now a gay zoner that nobody wants to fight and that barely anyone plays. Awesome.
Meanwhile the various faces of Smash, let's say Kirby for casual play (Down B spam and all), Fox for compfags and Smelees, and Falcon in general, are made up of two asspulls, and a moveset that has hardly changed since its inception. DK can also be mentioned as what's left of Ultimate's playerbase often has a pocket DK because he gets blown up, can blow you up and can string more than 2 moves together which is the ceiling of other pockets like Ganon or Hero that eventually get lame to an extent, and of course, he's an asspull too.

>>729544302
I mean, you can just adjust song likeliness per stage.
If you're a true chad you will max them all out and you will play song roulette.

>>729544483
I never actually knew that. That's funny.

Buffer is way too generous, an obnoxious amount of moves are safe on shield because lol parries, said parries make direct interaction suboptimal to cheese, and DLC wave 2 broke the game with Kazuya/Steve almost as hard as Bayo/Cloud broke WiiU. Even without that DLC, some characters are just spectacularly unfun to go against like Falco, Luigi, Mario, Game & Watch. Game's also shit as a casual party game because items and gimmicks are catastrophically overtuned, but that's been the case since Brawl.

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>>729543763
>>729543889
You both forgot
>no trophies
>'challenges' are overcomplicated dogshit
These are the real offenders. The two best features from Melee and Brawl, both removed/ruined by an inferior alternate version.

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>>729543510
It's a great game that's bogged down by atrocious online. The input lag isn't even the number one problem with it either. The new quickplay system is an absolute failure and botching it completely ruins the ability to just get into a match and play. Even if you're just looking for 1v1 matches, there's a chance you'll get stuck with a griefer playing with items that's targetting 1v1 players. So if you're looking for Team Battle or Free-for-all, you have to go into Arenas. Setting up a lobby and waiting for people to join sucks, joining a lobby and waiting for minutes on end only for the host to ragequit and close the lobby also sucks huge cock. Sometimes you get lucky and find a few guys that all stick around and play a shit ton of fun matches with you, but it's not common. Ironically Sakurai has made the Online very hostile towards casual play despite casualizing the gameplay to such a degree. I just want to pick up the game and have fun but fuck me is there always some issue everytime I do

who gives a fuck about single player content

it doesn't play like smash should. it's way too fast and spammy. parry is a horrible mechanic. balance was outrageous BEFORE the dlc that went even further beyond full retard

>>729543889
>easy as fuck unlockable characters
They were hard to beat at launch, especially Luigi. People complained too much so it was patched and they became too easy.

It's just Wii U 2.0, or Brawl 3.0 in some aspects. The series is very stagnant, and I want Smash 6 to tear it all down and start anew.

>>729547575
>who gives a fuck about single player content
Literally everyone who actually likes video games as video games, rather than shitty 'e-sports'

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Not enough content for Single Player. As someone that collected 1 of every Spirit outside of characters I didn't buy, not only was it a tedious task, but there's no real reason to use them outside of World of Light and the Spirit Board. Classic Mode's format of each character having their own unique set of battles isn't nearly interesting enough and most of the bosses end up just being Master Hand anyways.

Also online is truly ass, I can't bother with it. I must've tried just about every trick over the years to improve connections and you'll inevitably still run into lag and delay, which meant I never stuck with the game for too long. It's a great game to play with friends, but it's really rough online.

>>729547951
don't reply to me with this trite garbage
fighting games are to be played with other people and nobody cares about what your stance is on competitive play, we're not talking about that
>umm it's not a fi
stop right there. I don't care about what your idea of a fighting game is. it does not matter. this game is a failure as a multiplayer which is the only relevant aspect of a fighting game.

>>729543510
No events was the biggest redflag. Then it got worse

>Clones shamelessly disguise as "echo" characters
>No real adventure mode
>Removal of features like no trophies
>Competitive fag appealing of sorts
>Complete, total, utter removal of its own identity as gaming's and Nintendo's museum in favor to start becoming a shitty mugen
>DLC
But worse of all

>Changing Ganondorf's moveset
>Changing the only character that worked because it was a clone
>Said character was widely loved and one of the best because of it

>>729543510
Brawl was the swan song, 4 and 5 are fucking trash. take me back

>Everyone is Here showcased how odd the roster selection was throughout the years, Sakurai even confirming that he went out his way to not pick popular characters at the time and still does
>Still no jump momentum
>Tried to lean on the roster as a selling point but didn't want to go a little further (A full 100-man roster would have been a good way to send off Ultimate especially since people loved the rebranded echo fighters)
>Once you get past the roster and multiplayer, that's really it. The lackluster side modes mean you better hope the multiplayer is your thing
>World of Light sucked and was a slog
>Spirits Mode was a massive copout for people who wanted to see their favorite characters in Smash, people who wanted unique event matches and people who wanted a collectable like trophies which weren't a problem outside of reusing models and even that was a non-issue
>DLC was pay to win
>Boss Rush was exclusive to Sephiroth instead of being a free update for every character
>Classic mode sucked this time around

>>729543510
>only preset classic mode
>all star mode is baby mode
>pay to win dlc
>even more get hurt to win characters
>unsatisfying pokemon newcomer
>inkling ammo mechanic feels like shit
>mario still has no jump on your head move
>worst music in the series by a landslide
>great cave offensive isnt fun
>final smash meter
>homogenized final smashes
>daisy had slightly different stats from peach then they changed her to be an exact copy

why is mii fighter size no longer a thing?

>>729543510
The gameplay. Its fucking atrocious. Hackurai has slowly had to backtrack on the miserable failure that is brawl for nearly 2 decades only to STILL have gameplay literally 10x worse than the second game in the series. Legitimately embarrassing.

>>729543510
series should have stopped at the n64 one. it's genuinely great and doesn't take itself seriously. the faggots that lap melee is the reason why smash has been a cancer on gaming.

>>729555154
lol

>>729543510
It didn't have a moment comparable to Kirby flying in on the Dragoon.

>>729548723
wrong :^)

good for what it is, but its the perfect concluding point to start anew for the next title

which i imagine is the case considering it's now year 7 since Ult's release with no confirmation of a new game even being in development. i think if it was Ultimate: Literally The Same Again it would be here by now

>>729543889
>>no stages to unlock
didn't think about this until you brought it up but I do miss it, unlocking stages in melee was hype af

It's just sterile and boring, like they're trying to appeal to everyone and yet they made a game that didn't appeal to anyone at all. I get that Melee wasn't what they wanted from the series, and Brawl wasn't what any of the players wanted from the series, but throwing your hands up and saying "Let's meet in the middle" isn't the answer. If you have a vision, stick to it. and if you don't, you get SSBU.

It's kind of in the same boat as Soul Calibur, where they had a wildly popular and beloved second entry in the series thanks to the strength of its multiplayer, follow it up with a game with multiplayer that's mediocre at best but with great single player, and then spend the rest of the series apologizing for the third game and recapture what they had, and creating something that just makes no one happy.

world of light ass
the whole things 1 stock whos big brain idea was this, you spend more time waiting in loading screens between fights then you do fighting and you do 95% of them in like 5 seconds with only a handful of the total having any challenge

>>729544959
My man.

>>729553593
I am convinced HAL actually knew how to make a game not shit and Bamco can't program worth a diddle so you have horrible decisions all over the place. Make landing detection work like the old games-- it made characters more functional. Stop taking away momentum. Get rid of the z-axis. Stop spamming invincibility

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It's hard to differentiate what parts are the game being bad and which parts are me being older.
I can say with certainty that the input buffer sucks and combined with NSO's dogshit servers makes for a truly miserable online experience.
The single player kind of sucks but I can't say for sure if I ever really cared about that after a certain point in brawl. Do I actually care about going through and completing the grid, or beating classic and all star mode 80+ times? Not really.

>>729543889
>Music in stages tied to games instead of specific stages, ruining a chance at unique musical atmosphere
>>729544302

Huh? The music by default have different values in each stage. You can also change them individually. You aren't hearing the same tracks every stage of a single series unless you want to do that.

The actual problem is what other anons mentioned that some tracks are locked out of stages that clearly fit them because they aren't from the same series.

>>729544095
>Barely any new stages

To be fair, one point people often seem to forget here is that they heavily updated basically all returning Melee, Brawl and 3ds stages, and the Wii U ones have some minor tweaks.

All old stages looked clearly "old" and out of place in Smash Wii U. Even between Brawl and Melee there was an art style clash.

>>729552362
>and people who wanted a collectable like trophies which weren't a problem outside of reusing models and even that was a non-issue

Eh, it was an issue when you had to collect the same trophies again in different Smash games because only some series have 3d games and outside of Melee most trophies are recycled from other games.

>Boss Rush was exclusive to Sephiroth instead of being a free update for every character

Yeah, I don't get this. Really dumb choice.

I generally liked the Classic mode though, especially coming from the Wii U's. Although they could also have kept a "random" classic mode as an option, especially with the Miis having no Classic mode.

What was really dumb though was them making All Star mode an endless mode, rather than something where it stops once you defeat everyone once.

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>we're never going to get break the target stages for individual characters ever again
sigh

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>>729543763
The balance according to sakurai was something like 10% to 20% win rate between all characters but I wonder if that's remained true. Either way it's out of his hands to fix unless ninty caught up the dough.

>>729556858
I hope they don't make a smash 6 for switch 2. What they should do is make some deluxe edition or something of smash ultimate where they add more single player content (trophies, something like subspace emissary story single player content, break the targets, board the platforms etc) and better online play, maybe a few more characters even if they're clones.

Double digit frames of input delay

>>729557517
>hope they don't make a smash 6 for switch 2
You better, because bringing back Ultimate means bringing back EVERY piece of DLC that came with it, spirits, costumes and all. All those licenses have to be refreshed and if you want new characters, that's more to the budget that has to be allocated. And then you risk making Ultimate the norm instead of a one-off.

Ultimate felt like the final version of Sakurai's vision of post-Melee Smash. I'd be happier if Smash 6 were radically different from Brawl, 4, and Ultimate.

>>729553593
If we're talking purely about gameplay:
Melee > 64 >>> Ultimate (which is just 4, but polished) > 4 (which is just Brawl, but polished) > Brawl
I love Remix

>>729547618
i wish I got to experience this
makes me wonder if it was a lack of gameplay experience that made them that difficult

>>729543510
unecessary modifications instead of keeping it exactly like smash 4. Also making DLC characters was a mistake.
even in Smash 4 DLC characters were a problem.

>>729543510

Even if you dont care for the tourneyfagging the depth of the game is what made moments really hype. Every little thing added something and Sakurai slowly took it away to appeal to casuals who always had a chip on their shoulder. This didnt stop at the multiplayer and even affected the singleplayer. They removed a lot of fan favorite game modes in favor of a pseudo gacha mechanic with stickers. All because Sakurai was so butthurt about Meleefans. Before SSB4 Sakurai treated Smash as a museum for Nintendo franchises. Now its just cheap amusement. From the moment Smash 4 launched the series lost its soul and Ultimate was just the dead cat bounce. It had some good parts but it was the end of an era.

Theres nothing that Sakurai can do now to Smash that would make it more enjoyable or impactful than it already was. He should move on or retire.

>>729558215
Objectively correct take. If we add all the spinoffs and hacks, it's like
Melee > Remix > 64 > Slap City > Ult (variety of content at the moment) > PM = Rivals 2 = Rivals 1 > Smash 4 > Brawl

>>729543510
My biggest criticisms of SSBU are:
1) Everyone moves identically after numerous balance patches, thus the only unique aspect of characters are their specials (which many of them share, anyway)
2) Characters only have a few moves with K.O. potential. Everything else is just a combo extender, which is terrible for the average player who doesn't want to memorize combo chains.
Smash Bros peaked as a franchise at its inception on the Nintendo 64.
The rushed-out Melee was so full of soul and jank that it has a cult following to this very day. Brawl was every GAMER's dream brought to life but neutered by tripping and slow speeds. Smash 4 was convenient but soulless apart from custom moves. Smash Ultimate is simply 4 but okay to play, yet somehow lacks even fewer features.

>>729545870
>wanting trophies after Brawl and especially Sm4sh
The former was 80% reused models, barely anything unique. The latter completely ruined all descriptions, opting for memes and references.

is there anything good about Brawl?

Jason Griffith was a better Sonic voice actor than Roger Craig Smith.

>>729558707
Coin Launcher was the superior minigame to get trophies and the menu was easy to navigate. That's it. Subspace Emissary was dogshit and I'm sick of people defending it just for the cutscenes.

>>729558707
Had some solid music remixes in it.

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what's the input lag of ultimate versus all of the previous smash games?

>>729558707
actual character interaction, though minimal

>>729558707
It has the highest number of objectively good new remixes out of any entry.

>>729558707
It had not fully neutered certain things like SDI, but the overall answer is no. It is the glitchiest game with the most issues. The weird part is you can tell a lot of it was lifted from Melee because a few glitches persist from that game, like a very specific up B landing lag storage glitch. Yet they fucked up and added a bunch more, including totally borking how landing detection works to the point where to this day, modders cannot fully "unBrawlify" that aspect so it works like Melee. PM/P+ or whatever you want to call it still has a coat of jank simply because the engine itself has so many issues. The game has native input lag due to how it was coded.

>>729558978
>actual character interaction
the fucking pointless intro to world of light had more interaction than the entirety of sse

>>729543510
no good characters

>>729559045
lol

>>729544079
You are a colossal nigger.

>>729543510
No trophies and no Crash Bandicoot as playable character.

>>729558943
Not great, but it's difficult to say whether this is due to Bamco or the Switch itself. It has 5 frames of input delay and then you get to add additional frames for online.

>The average input lag is 2 frames for Smash 64 and Melee, 4 frames for Brawl, 3 frames for Smash 4 on the Wii U, and 5 frames for Ultimate. About one additional frame of display lag is added to each game to find out the total lag.

>>729559061
it's true whether you like it or not
the vast majority of sse was characters nodding at each other before a select screen

>>729558843
coin launcher was pretty cool with comfy music yeah, they could've gone more indepth with it but that being said I'm fine with how it was

>>729558707
SSE
Trophies and coin launcher
Stage creator was a novel concept
OST
The Dojo hype cycle

>>729558707
Ironically, all the good stuff about Brawl isn't gameplay related

>>729543510
honestly... nintendo dropped the game too fast. It should have had way more DLC and balacing patches.

>>729558707
It was also the most robust entry to mod for a long while.

>>729559121
>smash 4
>3 frames
never got a chance to try it and it seems like no one ever mentions it at all. worth playing (with friends)?

>>729558943
It's the worst in the entire series, I think it's a minimum of 11 frames online

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The DLC characters are either uninspired or fucking obnoxious. There is no in-between. Having rage mechanics should have fucking stopped with Lucario and Little Mac.

>>729559251
No, it isn't. It has the worst movement of the entire series and if you actually try to get into the gameplay, the meta is largely fishing for grabs to do dthrow/uthrow into uair. Terrible balance and even more campy/regressive than Ultimate, which is saying something. It can be explosive, but only because of poor balance/jank. Ultimate is literally a better version of it.

>>729559316
I like Hero and Terry
That's about it

>>729559251
There is literally no reason to play Smash 4 outside of curiosity for Smash Run om the 3DS.

>>729559135
>meta knight vs marth, followed by Ike leading the two
>captain falcon and co going to the great falcon before getting intercepted by meta ridley
>damn near every dedede cutscene
>snake, lucario and meta knight
>fox vs sheik
>diddy kong and star fox
>ness and lucas
>slight differences on whether you saved peach or zelda in the beginning
i'll give you the nodding thing, but saying WoL intro has more interaction is absolute bullshit

>>729559316
Nobody wants to hear it but i think Byleth was actually the most fun and well made DLC character.

>>729543510
The fanbase

>>729559431
>Byleth was actually the most fun and well made DLC character
>amalgamation of existing Smash characters moves copied onto on a slow character

>>729559532
the result was a character that was actually unique to play, so yeah.

>>729559431
>well made
Byleth feels like they ran out of ideas
>dude what if Joker Up B, Link B, Ganondorf's foot as Down B, Pit's aerials and the stage is a line

>>729558707

Subspace Emissary. You wouldnt believe how hype the internet was over every little character reveal.

>>729559392
God that Ike intro was so fucking good.

>>729559316
They are all obnoxious to fight against.
>hurtbox shifting with a comeback mechanic
>actively wants to run away for buffs and he has overtuned elements tied to RNG, ba-boom, crits, etc are crazy
>has to rely on eggs which is a shame, his remix version is fun as fuck
>jab jab powerdunk, stupid priority with sword legs
>FE Ganon with the most busted upB in the game
>What were they thinking: the character. Made a character who by design doesn't want to approach
>Doubled down and made an even better character who never wants to approach
>Made another character who really doesn't want to approach, but at least he is made of glass unlike the last two fatasses
>Make a character who can outframedata Sheik with a giant sword and attach it to Ganon
>Luigi with even more invincibility frames but slow jumpsquat
>Slow, floaty, giant hitboxes with slow, floaty combos. Extremely difficult to punish

>>729559605

I never understood why every new FE game necessitated a rep in Smash but it took this long for Ridley and K Rool to be added.

I feel like Smash has gotten too big for its britches. There is such a thing as too big of a roster. Single player mode is not fun because it's too gimmicky. Multiplayer isn't that fun either since it's either casuals who aren't good at the game or sweaties who somehow remember frames.

>>729559251
No. You should only play it if you're curious about the history of Smash.

>>729559431
I think he's decently fun, not to mention balanced, but I'm disappointed that it's a FE character. I feel like his kit would be excellent for a MonHun representative.

>>729559721
because japan DOES NOT give a shit about Metroid or Rare DK.

>>729559431
I would almost agree if Up B did not work the way it does. Command grab tether which can cheese characters trying to edgeguard and it can attach itself to the stage if Byleth goes too low? What the fuck. This isn't even bringing up what happens to DK.

>>729559780
fair, as an FE fan i was upset Byleth was the pick too, because i wanted a villain like every other IP got with Ultimate. and i think you're right that the kit could probably almost 1 to 1 be ported to a monster hunter.

>>729559316
Should have been included in earlier iterations
>Hero
>Banjo & Kazooie
>Sora
Deserved
>Terry
>Pyra/Mythra
>Kazuya
Understandable, but lacks cultural impact
>Min Min
Egregious
>Byleth
>Sephiroth
MUGEN but shilling
>Joker (soulful choice would have been the original MT or SMT protagonists)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-ZxNeI5Adw

>>729559781
>Rare DK
They love DKC and Rare by extension, it was fucking Nintendo that needed to be reminded by fans that Rare's DK was the DK people wanted, including the characters and settings.

>>729559721
Because Sakurai is biased towards his preferences. He loves Fire Emblem.

>>729559717
how did you leave out that banjo has an invincibility kill move you can spam five times

>>729559786
Tethers were a mistake in general, the way the worked in Melee should've stayed the way they worked.

>>729543510
Half the roster being fucking Fire Emblem literal-whos.

>>729559739
You really feel it don't in Ultimate. I got all the characters into Elite Smash prior to the DLC. Almost all of the characters feel the same to play, they just spam safe aerials or projectiles with varying efficacy. The characters who are truly different are typically those that aren't even playing Smash and are unhealthy for the game's meta, something that the DLC only made worse. There's so many characters, especially from Brawl and 4, who were basically left to rot in an extremely boring, ineffective state.

I'm aware that Elite Smash means nothing, I just mean to say that I played the entire roster long enough to feel comfortable with each character.

One thing that's sad is that I feel Final Smashes are almost forgotten about
As a kid, the addition to them in Brawl was amazing. It was why you'd pick a certain character. One of Ultimate's many homogenizations (like all characters having same jump frames) was that most final smashes were just lame cutscene kills. I used to look forward to X character using Y or Z as their final smash and by Ult's dlc I just didn't care
FUCK meter Characters like Joker, Cloud, etc. Why does some of the cast get essentially a Final Smash in their kit in competitive and then Kirby has to just punch like a chump.

>>729559913
Because it honestly isn't an annoying part of fighting him. If it's done poorly it's very punishable and it isn't like Waft where it encourages camping to get it as a resource. I don't love wonderwing's design but it isn't what makes Banjo cancerous to play against.

>>729559915
Agreed, though Byleth and Joker take it to a new extreme with just how hard it can be to kill them.

Gameplay boils down to who can short hop aerial first
It's an improvement over Sm4sh where you spammed grab into up aerial but not by much

>>729559868
Sephiroth was a soulless choice. Black Mage would've been a great addition if it wasn't for the redundancy of Sora using magic. They could've done better.

>>729543889
>making trophies is reaaaaally hard please understand. Have pngs instead err I mean spirits...
Omg... that's the moment I realized Sakurai is a lazy person and started to hate him slowly but surely. Trophies have been shit since Brawl lacking all soul from Melee, but at least they were there up till Smash 4.

>>729560048
The majority of final smashes were fucking stupid anyway.
>you turn into X and move around shooting Y
>you fire something to the side
>you fire something down
>a stupid lolsorandumb thing that is ineffective
It really didn't change much with having some become cutscenes. The other categories remained.

>>729560048
Final Smashes being reduced to cutscenes is one of the absolute worst changes the series has seen.

>>729560058
I've been bouncing around between platform fighters lately and it's depressing playing nu-Smash. You just feel kneecapped any time you try to push your advantage. You genuinely just cannot catch up to your opponent if your attacks send them horizontally, except in specific situations where you're allowed to tech chase them (which just results in another kneecapped interaction). It feels so unspeakably bad.

The realization I've come to is that 64 was probably the best formula for a Smash game that's conducive to both casual and competitive play. Melee is an excellent competitive game, but there's a gulf between casual and competitive. Anyone can pick up a game like Smash Remix and do combos that feel cool without knowing any crazy tech.

>>729560048
Every iteration of final smashes has been a failure. I just don't think there's a good way to make them work if it's Nintendo doing it.

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>>729559868
Joker should have been Jack Frost.
>easily represents SMT and Persona
>less restrictive moveset potential
>can have taunts and costumes referencing many characters/games
>home stage and music could have done the same
>10/10 design

>>729558707
reminder that brawl came with timed demos for some games and it turns out they were full games that just kicked you, but could still be beaten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QaLQIzv-qw

>>729560160
Some were just awful. Fox, Falco, and Wolf getting land masters that would do fuck all, and it wasn't even useful on Final Destination. I'd only use it so that nobody else could use their final smash.

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>>729560048
Final smashes were never good and the one people like the most is ironically a cutscene

>>729560250
The trick is to not make them "work", because competitive players never use items anyway. They function fine as retardedly OP moves that make casual matches more chaotic.

>>729560217
This is why despite a lot of minor issues and production quality, I feel like Slap City is a model for being that middle ground between the two.

>>729560308
Joker was just egregious. About the same level of the FE protags as far as FotM goes, and Joker only seems like a massive icon now because it's been so long since an actual new Persona game. P5 is turning 10 next year and still no P6.

>>729560048
I like the idea its just... overpowered, which was the point but not good for a competetive standpoint, just another broken item you can't use in tournaments, honestly most of the items in smash are pretty broken

>>729543510
Too much focus on roster
Not enough on actual game content

>>729560048
There was no point in even keeping them for future games. They are either stupidly OP and kill everyone twice or do 50 damage and tickle your balls a little. It's way more fun just having every other item on.

>>729560405
>>729560308
They wanted to promote Persona 5 Royal coming to Switch. It's not entirely an advertisement, but Smash is an advertisement.

>>729560528
>50 damage
Not even that sometimes. If you play against someone who knows how to avoid Peach's final smash they'll stay awake and steal the Peaches. Mario's was very easy to dodge even on small stages. Jigglypuff 's never worked.

>>729560528
pokeballs are way more fun

>>729560695
You can combo into Peach's for a free kill as they just die offstage.

>>729560540
Make fucking Morgana the rep then
A cat that turns into a bus is infinitely more interesting than Sheik with a gun

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>>729560695
>>729560048
>post yfw the LVL 9 Sonic gets the final smash

>>729560750
*In brawl

>>729560148
The funny thing is that they made a mistake that made it clear they were literally just downloading PNGs from google images. The spirit for the Masked Man was taken from somebody's Deviant Art page where they slightly edited the original Mother 3 sprite just enough so that you'd never notice it was different if you weren't looking for it, but the change that was made was exclusive to that DA user's post. They even patched it later when people figured this out.

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>>729560695
>mfw Rosalina and Jr.'s final smashes in 4 didn't work either

>>729560750
NOW ILL SHOW YA
HRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>729560847
Speaking of spirits and mother, why was there no Porky spirit? He's not in the game at all unless you count the absolutely safe capsule or the porky statue you can see in new pork city. People kept using this as some kind of confirmation that he was going to be a playable character, but then he wasn't. But then Pyra and Mythra were playable, despite the fact that they already had spirits in the base game. The fact that smashfags still think there are "patterns" is so fucking stupid, but you just know it's never going to stop despite the fact that it's never actually been a thing.

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>>729560750
>FS so busted it could kill you twice even if you waited on the respawn platform
They had to gut that shit in ultimate

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Kinda late but wanted to get some Smash Nitpicks from you guys, it could be literally anything whether it’s an inconsistency or weird choice.

>>729561036
>why was there no Porky spirit?
Same reason they didn't reuse his boss fight for Ness and Lucas despite bringing back that robot thing and Petey as a final smash
Because

>>729561191
Ike feels off in Ultimate. Neither his younger or older self looks right. Snake is just all wrong too, and it isn't just the flat ass.

>>729561231
>90% of the classic mode finals were master hand
there's really no reason why every series that had a boss fight shouldn't have been the final boss for everyone in that series. yes, even ganondorf vs ganon. there wasn't even a proper boss rush unless you wanted to play as sephiroth

>>729561231
Why?

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It became too anime.

Back air spam is extremely gay.

>>729561465
Ironically one of the few that Master Hand and Crazy Hand would thematically work for was Kirby. It could've been Wham Bam Rock. Fox and Falco could've been Andross.

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>>729558461
>RoA that low
I respect your opinion but I disagree. It's been a while since I played RoA1, but I booted it up to the try the fan character who's being added to 2 next week. While the CPU AI is worse than I remember it being, it's still fun to fuck around and this might be one of the most fun characters I've ever played in a platform fighter.

>>729561036
He's not in the capsule either, if you want to get technical about it. It uses the sprite before he gets in.
That really led me to believe that he would be one of the DLC characters and that his trailer would be him getting out of the capsule. Sakurai also posted a picture of Ness on Onett the day of or before Sora's announcement.
Obviously Porky isn't exciting enough to be the last character but I still want to see him in the next game, or if they decide to add more characters to Ultimate with a Switch 2 edition or something.
They could've easily just put the boss fight back in but I think that Nintendo doesn't want to create MOTHER 3 related content in a situation where people outside of Japan can easily access said content because they don't want to confuse people.

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The game just gets really lame when you realize it's pretty much just pressing A plus the direction the enemy is. This is true whether you're in neutral or even in combos.
And then once you "Graduate" from that level of play, it's just playing keep out which some characters are much better and faggier at than others.

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>>729561783

>>729561191
The obvious one is losing trophies for spirits, but that might be big enough to not be considered a nitpick. I also hate how useless Ultimate's training mode is beyond DI indicators.

>>729561793
Which is why they added mother 3 profile pictures to switch profiles in japan and completely omitted them from any other country. why did they think that was a good idea. as far as I know, there is no official translation of mother 3, but they could literally just toss the JP version on NSO and anybody who wants to play it can figure it out for themselves.

>>729561191
>K. Rool runs on all fours
>Banjo has a third jump
>Mario gets a golf alt but Luigi doesn't
>Diddy Kong isn't angry during that one taunt
>Young Link doesn't open his mouth to say AHHH after drinking
>Wolf still howls but his animation is like a scream

>>729543510
Spirits and World of Light are just not fun at all despite how much time the game wants you to waste on them.
Game lacks a proper Classic mode for all characters, as many get stuck with a total gimmick line-up of battles in their "Classic" runs.

>>729562093
The personalized classic modes were fun with all the references, but a second cohesive classic mode would have been a lot more fun. Melee's adventure mode was great and the fact they haven't done something like that since is lame and gay.

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>>729561191
DK and Diddy making those monkey noises since Brawl that they have never made in their own games.

Some facial expressions from Smash 4 into Ultimate seem to have gotten removed or not properly carried over - particularly Shulk seems to suffer from that on victory poses for example.

Mario lost his Fire alt.

Lucina's alt colors in Ultimate got muted and some of them no longer properly reflect the character from Awakening it was supposed to reference as a result.

In general colors are more washed out compared to Smash 4.

>>729561960
The same reason the game wasn't translated 20 years ago and won't be now in the modern era, it's too politically dangerous. Just the depiction of transgenderism alone would make both sides of the American political spectrum angry. Whether you personally consider the Magypsies as trannies or not doesn't matter, they will be and are thought of that way. That and the multitude of other problems, not even thinking of the budgetary and sales problems involved with releasing it again in different languages.
They have released Japanese language only games on non-Japan regions of the NSO apps before so they're not opposed to that in and of itself. You can make a Japanese account and download the Japanese GBA app and play it with any region's online account.
You could also get the icons by temporarily changing your account region to Japan, getting them and then changing back to your home region. I'm sorry if you didn't know and couldn't get them. They might bring them and the other MOTHER icons back for an anniversary in the future.
They actually patched something with NSO accounts because there was a problem using the locked icons outside of their region. They know that people outside of Japan like the game and accept that to the point of making a loophole standard practice. It's just that they want to prevent more people from knowing about the game if possible because of PR and monetary reasons.

>>729561960
They could actually translate Mother 3 and release it on the service. Y'know, have it feel like an actual premium service worth the money. They also have a translation of FE1 that got an official translation 5 years ago but was only on the digital shop for 2 months. Still no release on Nintendo Online even though it's been, again, 5 years. Ffs.

>>729561191
The game is incredibly slow at loading the CSS pictures, and many of them don't display how alternate colors look very well

>>729543510
rosterfagging

>>729559721
>>729559908

IS has been closely collaborating with Sakurai since Melee's development. At a time where he still had restricted access to other franchises (at the beginning of development in the Q&A site he had at the time he outright said Rare characters were out of question for example). The Rare case specifically ended up changing during development, likely due to them realizing Melee was a bigger selling point than Luigi's Mansion. But you can still see it in other games, like how Brawl had Radiant Dawn trophies and one bgm, but was missing similar content from other Nintendo games from the same period.

I'm pretty sure that's the actual reason FE is "favored", connections and history between the developers. It's not just Sakurai liking the game series itself, but how the developers were always willing to give him early info and assets for Smash.

Ultimate feels like the first time a Smash game came out and everything was actually "up to date".

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>>729543510
>no single player adventure mode
>no fun unlockables
>online functionality that was worse then literal OG Xbox/PS2 services

Smash lost its identity after Brawl. Sm4sh/Ultimate era really was Fortnite for boomerlenialls before Fortnite was a thing. Nintendo online was, and still is complete shit.

>>729562368
>It's just that they want to prevent more people from knowing about the game if possible because of PR and monetary reasons.
There was some nintendo direct back in the Wii U era that had the Robot Chicken guys animate a segment with someone asking Reggie when they were going to port Mother 3 and Reggie shot them with a fire flower. They know, and apparently aren't opposed to making jokes about it. I guess that was more than enough confirmation that they never will translate it.

>>729562579
Smash made the mistake of cutting additional content after a certain point. Fortnite is going to add characters until the end of time and have people going back to it over and over again because of it. Smash is outdated as far as party games go now.

>>729557517
just make smash ultimate: melee version, add momentum and shit there, best game

>>729562712
Fortnite might add characters, but they all use basically the same model, animations, and hitboxes. It's really not the same thing. It's the reason they added buff Beder Grimfin instead of his normal fat appearance, or why short characters like Morty ride in mechs.

>>729562781
Normalfaggots only care about the surface level, not actual thought put into things. It's the same reason why Avatar movies are so popular.

>>729562695
By this point everyone that would have played MOTHER 3 has already played it with the translation. I'm sure a good amount of people would buy the game if they decided to release it as a paid product in some form. They probably have even done marketing research seeing how many people would buy it within the last ten years. An official release just isn't realistic. There would be too many changes that ruin it anyway.

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>>729544095
>Looks very washed out

Especially this, how the fuck does Smash 4 look more vibrant than Ultimate?

>>729562960
I think the Ultimate uses a phong shader, like Team Fortress 2, and it ends up muting the entire color palette.

>>729543510
awful online
ledges are too safe

>>729562960
The lighting system
It really sucks because Ultimate is more animated, but everything looks like it got covered in dust

>>729544484
Items peaked with Melee too

>>729545415
Ledge grabbing is extremely generous too with the magnet hands, being off stage isn’t as scary as it is in 64, Melee and Brawl to an extent

>>729562884
An official release would work if it was released on NSO. Soccer moms wouldn't really notice it since their kids wouldn't ask for it specifically, it would just hide in the background. Most people that would screech about it being anti-tranny would say "well, it released 20 years ago, so y'know...". If One Piece can get away with it, so can Mother 3.

>>729557517
Ultimate was 7 years ago and it's online scene is more dead then Melee and 64. I don't think people can stomach another 5+ years of Ultimate again.

There's a 70/30 chance the next Smash will be a series reboot with a smaller roaster around the middle of Switch 2's life cycle.

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>>729543510
How much you guys wanna bet they put the most focus into bringing back every character than putting more care into other things, such as Echo Fighters for example?

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>>729563209
If we get a reboot I hope it focus on classic characters only. I wouldn't be able to stand a small roster if a character like Inkling is allowed to be in.

>>729563064
What reason do they have to release the game with translation(s) when it loses them money and worsens their reputation? Even if they just put the Japanese version on other regions that's still something they have to host and get the rights from Hobonichi/Itoi for. And even if the bad press just means a slight uptick in news articles from shitty news sites it's still a negative.

>>729563257
Smash 6 should give every character a counter as a separate move type, then all the specials can be replaced with something different.

>>729563257
playing against joker's counter even if they suck is anti-fun

>>729563316
It would increase subscription count both in the short-term and in the long-term. There's a lot of zoomers who don't want to emulate, and NSO would be their only option. Same reason why FE1's translation needs to be fucking released in there already. Translate the rest of the original FE games while they are at it too.

>>729547575
>parry is a horrible mechanic.

I miss perfect shielding

>>729563257
NIGGA GRAB THEM

>>729563257
Greninja is my main but his counter is so shit that you might as well not even bother using it. His counter has like 1/10 the window of someone like Shulk

>>729547649
Even if Sakurai has to step down for Smash to evolve or reboot?

>>729563528
Sakurai has become like Miyamoto in the vein that they are both stubborn and actively contributing to the stagnation of things that they supervise.

>>729563528
Kid Icarus Uprising and Kirby Air Riders show that he works best as a game director when he's not chained to the Smash mines over and over. I'd happily take the risk of having fresh blood on the series even if it ends up a hilariously catastrophic decision.

>>729563596
That's what happens when people are actively feeding your ego. You start to think you are some kind of wise sage on the topic, instead of just having done it well a few times. The Katamari guy and Yuji Naka suffered from this HARD. Maybe it's a Japanese thing.

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>>729551415
I also like how Brawl’s roster was organized vertically starting from top to bottom in columns. Never liked how 4 and Ultimate did it horizontally

>>729547364
All he had to do was take For Glory and For Fun and add a new team option to them so you could team with randoms and it would have been fine.

>>729563715
>grasping for straws this hard
It stops being organized after Zelda

>>729544017
I'm so torn by Incineroar. I think he looks fucking retarded and it should've been anyone else, but at the same time he's fun as fuck to play as.

I think one of the big problems with the series is that sakurai has been tired of making them since smash 4. You can kinda tell he'd rather be doing something else but he's stuck with smash since the series is so huge

idk I think you just feel it in the gameplay in 4 and ultimate. they feel really uninspired

>>729563669
It seems to be mostly a Japanese thing. Once when you earn a certain prestige you get a lot of yes men and nobody is going to tell you no. Most of the reason why Miyamoto thrived is because Yamauchi wouldn't let him get too comfortable. Iwata taking his place practically conincides with Miyamoto becoming a dried up well, but Iwata was still hard on Sakurai. Now it's just business men who don't know anything about game development and it shows.

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>>729557517
Oh fuck off, an Ultimate Deluxe would be the disappointing shit ever, One reason why l'd prefer a new Smash game over them doing a "Switch 2 Edition" of Ultimate is because we already have the power to add more characters in the game on the Switch 1. Ultimate modding has come a long way that it's possible to add brand new characters with unique movesets without replacing other characters, so that already defeats a major selling point for an enhanced upgrade. I know many people can't or won't mod their Switch 1 because they fear getting their account banned but l'm certain a majority of fans would prefer a new game regardless.

>>729563418
Maybe the people that like MOTHER would subscribe for the amount of time it takes them to beat the game or they buy one year. Zoomers don't care about MOTHER 3, an international re-release would only benefit people that were active online around the release of the translation patch. The people against or irrationally afraid or ignorant of emulation don't like games like MOTHER 3 anyway. The average person also doesn't like RPG's anymore (I don't think they ever did) and they're definitely not going to touch one that's 20 years old and DQ-coded.
That isn't to say that absolutely no new people would play it if they put it up, it just wouldn't be enough to justify it. Again they probably have done research to some extent to see if it would be worth it or not and it just isn't. Every game they release on the service that doesn't entirely belong to Nintendo rights-wise is a gamble. MOTHER 3 was made in a joint operation between Nintendo, Brownie Brown and Itoi, who now has the rights for merchandise with his company Hobonichi. Hal Laboratories might even still be a part of it from when they were developing it on the 64. These companies have all shown that they're willing to cooperate pretty easily but it's still a process they have to go through.
They only go through with titles that they anticipate the amount of people that will subscribe or sustain a subscription because of a game's inclusion will be enough to justify the work and hosting involved with adding the game. This will be especially true with the Gamecube because of the size of the games being much larger than previous consoles.
People always say they should "just release it" but there is no "just releasing something." If they were making a for sale product with all three games for example it would be a different story because they could budget the costs of the bureaucracy into the cost of the game but this kind of subscription money isn't enough.

>>729563994
>tired of making them since smash 4
He's been tired of making them since Melee, regardless of the quality of the games

>>729564082
I think he genuinely enjoyed making brawl, he just had a hate boner for tourneyfags

>>729564231
I think he kind of changed when the cutscenes were all put online. That signified a big shift from people wanting to unlock and naturally experience content in games to people just wanting everything handed to them at once. He shouldn't care as much as he does but I do think it kind of soured things for him going forward.

>>729564002
CEOs should never be people who have no experience in what they're presiding over. What's the fucking point. Iwata was a very talented game programmer before he was president.

>>729564319
Correct, that's why he revealed the full rosters for Ultimate and Air Riders before they came out.

>>729564319
him being upset about the cutscenes being put online was so weird

>>729564345
I feel like not every company needs a CEO. A company like Nintendo just needs a board of idea men and the people to program those ideas.

>>729564319
He was throwing a retarded tantrum. The cutscenes going online got more people into the game and the real rewards were actual unlocks. Nobody fucked played to get a movie where Mario stares at a cave for 8 seconds.

>>729564401
The "everyone is here" thing was still probably a misstep, because I get the feeling everyone will not be here next time, and people are definitely going to bitch about it.

>>729564485
Maybe if you misunderstand what a CEO actually does. It's usually not just some fat jew who collects money and does nothing else. Or at least it isn't supposed to be.

>>729564485
I have a feeling you don't know what a CEO actually does. Nintendo has a board too.

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>>729564553
>because I get the feeling everyone will not be here next time, and people are definitely going to bitch about it.
He explicitly said this in the fucking direct.

>>729563330
Almost like some sort of... parry...

>>729564493
The real reason is because the budget went into the newcomer trailers. Sakurai only framed it that way when asked about no storylines because he wanted to voice his frustrations. Japanese devs are often disingenuous with these answers.

>>729564414
Him changing the way he wants to create games and present them from that is strange, being upset isn't. The developers spent a lot of time creating an something they wanted people to experience in a certain way because they thought it would be the most enjoyable. They were then hit with the reality that people's behaviors have changed and that wasn't necessarily true anymore.
You also have to understand that the Japanese are (or at least in 2008 were) extremely autistic about piracy/uploading copyrighted content.

>>729564042
>Waluigi
>Silver
>Krystal
>Blaziken
>Ninten
>Masked Man
>Kamek
>Funky Kong
>Sans
>Bandana Dee
Genuinely, kill rosterfags

>>729564553
>Everyone is here
>First Smash where my main is gone (Adult Link without the retarded moveset)

>>729558389
>pseudo gacha

Remember Custom Moves in Smash 4? You can get duplicates that just vanish if you already have them. Now don’t get me wrong Custom Moves were cool but unlocking them was very annoying sometimes.

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>>729561191
The victory screen looks so fucking bad man. Most of the models look passable to good but the color flash makes almost everyone look terrible.

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Remove all 3rd party fucking shits. Cut down the roster to these guys, and completely redo ALL their movesets. All completely new stages as well, one for each character.

>>729564697
Kamek deserves it, if only because Sakurai made the mistake of leaving Yoshi as its own universe and therefore the most overdue for a second rep.

>>729564772
Making Yoshi its own separate "franchise" in the series was downright retarded. For what reason? Yoshi is a Mario character.

>>729543510
Not enough single player, offline content. The game breaks down into endless online grinding too quickly. It needed adventure, smash run, break the targets, all that shit. World of Light was a shit mode, that was just 500 or so of the worst event matches you have ever seen, 90% of which are a 3 second "press F-Smash to win" warioware game.
I'm not a game dev, I have no idea what leads to it, but the game is way, way too passive, and rewards defensive play too much. Actually trying to play the game means you lose, camping like a faggot until someone touches your shield means you win. The ways to win are not fun. I hate playing to win in this game, and can't win playing in a way that's fun.
Too many third party slop characters. A few was fine, but now glup shittos got in, and now there's really no reason Master Chief, Peter Griffin, and Goku can't be in. I no longer care that someone got into smash.
All the DLC characters except Banjo were stupidly overpowered. Smash 4 at least tried to pretend its DLC was balanced, this was blatant pay to win.

>>729564763
>bowser jr.
>ridley
>king dedede
>meta knights
>isabelle
>arms character
fucking idiot, kill yourself for these trash picks.

make squad strike into an MvC style mode where you can swap in and out and the benched teammates have assists

>>729564890
nah go back to jerking to rosalina futa threads you faggot

>>729564763
>no jigglypuff
no matter what they do, I hope they never cut any of the original 12, even if they don't deserve to be there

>>729564763
>leaving in Isabelle
>not cutting Charizard and Mewtwo to leave in Pokemon Trainer
>keeping Ice Climbers

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>>729559316
Can’t believe they gave us Marth and Lucina again for DLC after giving us a shittier cornier version Robin in the last game.

>>729564763
I always find it funny when the Fire Emblem characters with unique mechanics get cut, but Marth stays because seniority.

>>729565097
Marth was the original fire emblem character. if anything, roy, lucina, and chrom need the ax. robin and corrin are the only ones unique enough to warrant any kind of argument.

>>729565238
>Byleth and Ike

>>729559431
The reveal trailer is still sleep inducing and a poor attempt at calling out Smash fans over Sword Characters

>>729565273
doesn't mean they all need a place on the roster. hell chrom was just marth+ike.

I wish kazuya was stronger so I could see more salt about him but everyone just calls him luigi.

>>729564876
No one knew how much damage Yoshi's Story would do. It could have just been a title early on for the N64 followed by a more ambitious title with a less childish tone. Yoshi's Island sort of hid the childish tone better.

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>>729559721
Could you imagine if Pokémon only got Pikachu Clones for its reps?

>>729565609
>morpeko
A smash fighter whose entire fighting style changed after a set cycle of time that you couldn't control could be interesting. Like Make it offensive for 30 seconds and defensive for 30 seconds.

>>729559868
Pyra & Mythra weren’t deserved in the context of DLC, they were more understandable but lacked cultural impact like Min Min.

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>>729560048
Yoshi had the only good transformation final smash, same with Mega Charizard X in Smash 4. Giga Bowser is just giant Bowser with random elemental attacks. Wario just goes fast and gets no unique moves, Mega Lucario does the same in 4. Sonic can only fly into opponents. Ganondorf just goes forward. Pikachu handled like shit. The Landmaster was clunky and slow despite it actually being pretty nimble in the games, Fox’s handled well on the ground but sucked to fly in the air, vice versa with Falco, Wolf’s was good overall but didn’t last as long.

Still better than press B near opponent to initiate an unskippable cutscene. And even if the transformation final smashes weren't good in brawl and 4, there was no reason to scrap them entirely in favor of glorified Blue Falcon Cutscene Ripoffs.

>>729560067
It’s even dumber how the Final Fantasy series logo is just well… “FF” and not the Meteor since the only content is exclusively from FF7, even the Mii Costumes, Spirits and extra music tracks. Not even the famous classic FF prelude theme is in Smash.

>>729560308
I’m gonna come out and say Min Min should’ve been either Ring Fit Trainer, someone from BOTW, or a Gen 8 Pokémon all those games sold way more than Arms. Even though I say this I still think is a lesser evil than Byleth and even outranges Byleth on distance attacks

>>729560695
>Jigglypuff 's never worked.

Why are people so against cutting Jigglypuff? I’ve seen many Roster Cutting videos and most of them cut out the Puff, sometimes Luigi, Yoshi and even the whole Star Fox franchise with no Fox. This is a conversation a lot you guys are not ready to have unfortunately. You stupid original 12 purists. Just look look at Street Fighter 6 that game does not have all the World Warriors from SF2 and I don’t see nobody complaining about that. For now it’s missing Vega and Balrog.

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>>729560875
I wish Bowser Jr. got in one game earlier with Brawl with a moveset revolving around the Paintbrush to compliment Mario getting FLUDD for the first time.

What characters do you guys wish got in a little earlier? Wario in Melee is a really good one since it’s the perfect sweet spot before the debut of Warioware, not that I hate it but I feel like it ruined Wario’s moveset potential. He’s basically a weird Smash OC.

>>729566565
Jigglypuff was popular at the time of Smash 64's release. It was just a lucky coincidence that Sakurai could reuse Kirby's skeleton for it. It was either Jigglypuff or Clefairy (Yes I know Clefairy was never considered, I'm just going by who the popular Gen I mons were).

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Smash will never be soulful again because Sakurai's too autistic now about optimizing the development side of things. Smash is too big in scope and he's going to cut as many corners as he can. This is why since Brawl so many stages, new songs, trophies, etc. have all been straight-up ripped from other games. A lot of people say Brawl is the last Smash game with "soul," but it started a lot of the shit that we complain about today.

You're never gonna get another Melee. It was a product of its time. It was the beginning of a new generation, and most characters either hadn't been redesigned and "standardized" for the next gen or never even had a 3D model at that point and never had one since. Most characters had their iconic and still beloved N64 designs basically amped up with more polys and better textures. You're never gonna get shit like Bubbles and Stanley having fully modeled trophies. You're never gonna have one dude at HAL making beautiful arrangements of each franchise's music, because the scope is too big and you need multiple, completely different composers working on everything. And it's a damn shame.

No one wants to hear this but they basically had to make the DLC all 3rd parties.
There's like no decent 1st party characters left

>>729567083
There's plenty of first party characters that could be fun to play as. They just won't because it doesn't pull in the viewers and the "hype" like all the third party characters do

>>729543763
Fpbp and no wavedashing and everything is too safe and lame
I don't even play competitive shit and melee was more fun for multi-player cuz wavedashing is just so fun and brawl nailed the casual shit.

>>729567083
I would like for Smash to delve deeper into its Nintendo roots rather than become the platform fighter version of Fortnite.

>>729566904
How the fuck did Melee get made in just over a year?

>>729567083
Only hypefags like you think this way. They got plenty to use.

>>729543510
I will say that players should be able to toggle the smoke trails off.

>>729543510
The game ended content leaving brown rosterfags nothing to complain about on anonymous message boards and threads.

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>>729543510
DLC ruined the game, also the online sucked dick. I hope the next Smash game takes a more "sandbox" approach to content letting players make stages, custom events, break the targets, custom adventure levels, etc.

>>729567352
Custom break the targets is way too good of an idea for bringing the mode back, and that's why it won't happen.

>>729567204
Melee is still the best Smash even from a casual standpoint

>basically every stage is fun with the exception of maybe Icicle Mountain
>no wasting time on stages fighting some gimmick boss or other hazard that distracts from the game
>items are fun to use and can take some skill to use without being too blatantly OP
>despite what retards say, basically any character is fun to use and play against even if they're not "competitively" viable
>can always cash out the coins after a session with the bros and see what trophies you can get

>>729567352
It annoys me that we never got something like Board the Platforms again. The closest thing we got is the platforming stage in Ultimate's arcade mode, but that's more like Race to the Finish in that it's the same between all fighters. Having unique platforming challenges for each character in a PLATFORM fighter was genius. Jigglypuff's stage, for example, taught you that you needed to use pound to recover, as you couldn't reach the final platform without it. Made me feel like a genius as a kid.

As an aside, I liked RoA1's abyss mode, which is sort of like a rapid fire series of minigames that do include platforming challenges. Very cool concept.

>>729567654
My buddy who doesn't even think of Melee as a metafag fightning game thinks the game is still the best because he enjoys the physics better.
Sometimes he'll want to play Smash 64 because items had more oomph. Bob-ombs and turtle shells only.

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Imagine spending a year on a stage that plays like garbage and not even bothering to port it to Ultimate

>>729543510
>Boring and slow as shit
>90% of the characters suck ass
>No real adventure mode like melee or subspace
>DLC made the game worse
>built in 6frames of delay
>online lags

>>729567654
Agreed. The average Smashfag has become just as terrified of the competitive boogeyman as Sakurai was when he made Brawl. Melee was always and still is fun casually, it's just that the competitive community is what's keeping the game alive.
It's crazy that people would have you believe
>Oh, that fun you thought you were having when you played Melee with your friends as a kid? Yeah, that was fake, it's actually for compfags (who want to RUIN your fake fun, by the way)
I also feel like Melee had the best item balance in the series. Red shells, spinning bumpers, no overpowered assist trophies and fewer overpowered Pokemon.

>>729567847
>actual star fox assault representation
>it's a completely dog shit stage that nobody would ever want to play on more than once
thanks sakurai

>>729567847
I really like the Assault design of the Great Fox. But yeah, this stage sucks.

Not fun to 1v1 niggas. If the opponent is good every match is stressful and I'm not happy even when I win. Fun casually disabling the more obnoxious items, but I can't find people to play it that way these days

>>729543510
world of light sucks
online sucks
making some echo fighters like daisy play the exact same as the original character was a dumbass idea
replacing perfect shields with parry feels pointless
no jump momentum

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>>729558461
>not rating 3DS and Wii U separately
bro

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>>729558461
For me, it's

>>729568384
You have no idea how much this hurt. Basically the only fun I had playing 3DS. Well, that and Wectoring before it was patched out.

>>729567083
i hate it, but i agree. i dislike pretty much every 1st party character suggestion i see for a sequel.

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>>729558707
Playing with items is still a reasonable experience as trophies/Pokéball drop rates aren't fucked and assists are for the most part not too broken instead of the insane stage control of modern assists and the Pokéball spam.
Some items that never made it back like the Cracker Launcher are also really fun to use. Egregious and unfun items mostly came from 4.
Last unpatched game so it's a very silly game that inherently has more value as a game to return to. Try coming back to 4 and the biggest reaction you'll get an "Oh yeah" tier reaction at how "broken" things used to be. Come back to Brawl and it's very silly. Of course, at a high ceiling, it becomes lame as shit, but for a session for an hour or two with another decent player, you just get to laugh at how good or bad characters are. Olimar smash spam, Snake's stupid range, Marth being the platonic idea of a solid character, Falco chaingrabs, one move wonders like Wolf Bair/Charizard Rock Smash, 9 winds Giant Punch killing at 40%, Luigi's insane traction and sliding from shielding shit, Pit arrows looping around the stage, gliding, Peach having free combos, Wario & ZSS' tires/armor, ROB and ZSS' insane glide toss, and more.

>>729543510
Steve and Sora. Sora in peculiar because he arrived just after both Square Enix and Disney managed to turn public opinion against themselves to the point that every kid under 12 hates them out of principle.

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>>729563285
i feel like Inkling is as much of a classic character as Ness or Captain Falcon were when they joined 64
or when Olimar joined Brawl

plus Splatoon is 10 years old and still kicking around, it'd be weird to not have them

>>729567204
people hate wavedashing with a passion, but i feel like it's one of two solutions to the approach problem in platform fighters. the other is shield pressure, which is what 64 / Remix has. Ultimate, coincidentally, has neither, and is one of the most slow, defensive games in the genre.

with a fighting game subgenre where the emphasis is on movement, you need a way to just get in on people and open them up or lock them down. otherwise you end up with a game where defensive play / camping are preferable unless you're an incredibly privileged character with character-specific mechanics that break the mold.

>>729569156
Yep. Splatoon is at least a B lister series by now if not an A. Besides if we go by cultural relevance only Pyra and Mithra will stay from Xenoblades, half the Pokemons are out, Star Fox becomes just Fox and Fire Emblem becomes just Bylet and Marth.

>>729567654
>Icicle Mountain
Even then this stage is fun
My brother and I would play it a lot around Christmas in the day
Gem

>>729567217
it's not going this direction, absolutely no way

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>>729543510
>native input lag

>dogshit online with even more input lag

>some semi-popular 1st parties STILL don't have reps somehow

>can't shield drop from plats

>universal jump squat (beside Kazuya I think)

>no L-cancelling, game is just a mashfest at times

>instead of fixing heavies properly they just made them even more annoying to fight while still being shit

>no break the targets is insane

>C-stick nerfed to hell for no reason

>OP DLC like every other fighting game out there

>>729544302
>It would make sense that only Mario Galaxy music plays, right? But no, there is the options for every song in the Mario IP to play on it.
So don't use the the non-Galaxy music for the Galaxy stage? You said it yourself, it's an option. Getting bothered by something optional seems terribly autistic.

the online is genuinely a piece of shit, input delay is bad, arenas are clunky, kicking you out of the ring for switching characters/stages and GSP is a terrible "ranking" system that forces one and dones

i just want combos man
not kazuya's free 0 to death combos, but actual platform fighter combos

>>729564763
Only Nintendo worshippers want the game to be purely Nintendo. Characters like Sonic, Pac-Man, Megaman are fine and they fit right in.

>>729568460
NASB2 is a game that does play fairly well, but is still dead due to the echoes of the first game's hype being broken (it never could've lived up to the unreal expectations) and the roster cuts + pricing. At its very core, while NASB is a fun game to fuck around in for a bit, NASB2 is pretty good, though not on the level of ROA. Garfield is kickass.

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>>729543510
>DLC and roster itself consisting of swordsmen and/or broken characters
>echoes not really being what they are claimed to be and seemed more like alt costume options more than separate characters
>no break the target, watered down stage builder, world of light is just glorified event mode with maybe a cutscene or two

you know what would have been cool? a color mode where you can make custom skins for fighters.

>>729544017
cry more, faggot.

>>729568251
That's why I dropped the series and gave up on coping. For Glory/For Fun were exactly that in SSB4; just jump in and do your thing, unlike the shit global score system that makes every tryhard a sweaty piece of shit.

>>729543510
Same problem that brawl and 4 had: They have to accommodate for every possible controller type. So you get games built around the wiimote, and now single joycons

>>729561960
>they could literally just toss the JP version on NSO and anybody who wants to play it can figure it out for themselves.

Heck they could even do it with FE3 and FE4 unless they pull a limited time FE1 situation and translate those

>>729543889
>too many fucking non-Nintendo reps that make 0 sense
but during sm4sh everyone said it was too much nintendo , pokemon, fire emblem etc
so which is it? are guest characters a good or a bad thing? make up your minds ffs

>>729562406
It’s also very stupid how we have to keep selecting our characters after each fight or how you can’t simply press start on the results screen like the previous games.

>>729574137
I'm not exactly invested in NASB's success, but I still consider it a tragedy.
>be GameMill
>hire the Slap City developers, the people who come closest to striking a balance between 64's accessibility and Melee's movement, and have them develop a licensed Nickelodeon game
>on a shoe string budget
>no voice acting in a licensed game
>sell it for $50
>it's jank and feels cheap as fuck
>it sells surprisingly well, but instantly burns all goodwill for the brand
>get the green light for a sequel
>2 years later, people are still pissed off about NASB1
>sell NASB2 for $50, again, with no discount for people who felt scammed by the first game
>flops because no one gets to get burned by the funny Spongebob game a second time
>it turns out NASB2 is actually a great platform fighter with genuinely good ideas and a much higher level of polish than the original
NASB1 is sitting at 3,600 reviews on Steam right now while 2 is at a paltry 900 despite being much more highly reviewed.

>>729543510
Not much. It is the best Smash game. The roster balance is fucked, but there's no avoiding that in a game with 80-something characters realstically. The characters I most enjoy playing are Dedede and Mewtwo, but in comp I feel obligated to play as Shulk and Ken because I know I'm gonna perform way better with them despite having thousands more matches playing as the former two. I think the main problem, and this ties in with the balance being fucked, is that Smash devs don't play their own game at a high level and thus balance patches were arbitrary throughout the short time they were actually producing them. I think balancing was focused largely on those characters purported to be the competitively viable ones, and they just got lazy and continued to balance the game based on feedback surrounding that rather than doing anything to help the lower tiers or hinder the top tiers. It turned into an S to B tier juggling act rather than any real attempt at balancing the entire roster, with the occasional random change to lower tier characters which proved that the developers never truly understood the game.

People will bitch about the single player content, but I never played the single player modes even as a child during 64 and Melee aside from unlocking characters. People will bitch about trophies, but how many of them do you expect actually read the trophy descriptions? I did for characters I'd never seen before, but that was a minority because my mother was a NESfag and I owned a Freeloader disc so I could play Japanese games on my PAL Gamecube.

People who don't think SSBU is the best Smash either REALLY like L-canceling despite their arthritis, or they have autism over one specific feature (I have never met an Adventure Mode/Subspace enjoyer who wasn't a freak, for example)

>>729577617
>The roster balance is fucked, but there's no avoiding that in a game with 80-something characters realstically. The characters I most enjoy playing are Dedede and Mewtwo, but in comp I feel obligated to play as Shulk and Ken because I know I'm gonna perform way better with them despite having thousands more matches playing as the former two. I think the main problem, and this ties in with the balance being fucked, is that Smash devs don't play their own game at a high level and thus balance patches were arbitrary throughout the short time they were actually producing them. I think balancing was focused largely on those characters purported to be the competitively viable ones, and they just got lazy and continued to balance the game based on feedback surrounding that rather than doing anything to help the lower tiers or hinder the top tiers. It turned into an S to B tier juggling act rather than any real attempt at balancing the entire roster, with the occasional random change to lower tier characters which proved that the developers never truly understood the game.
I agree with this. I disagree with everything else. I don't know how ROB dodged a single nerf for the game's entire lifespan. They were very aggressive about nerfing perceived problem characters like Pichu, Palutena, and Ike early on, and then they proceeded to spend years ignoring legitimate grievances about character balance. Nerfing Ike of all characters foreshadowed what Ultimate's patches were going to look like.

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Can’t stand the SSBU simps

>>729543510
>Can't change character between rounds vs randoms
This is what killed it for me

>>729543510
Smash had already gone as far as it could go with 4. There was nowhere left to go except to scrape the bottom of the barrel with more characters.

>>729563819
Incineroar fills a very popular archetype of character and of fighting games in general that Smash generally didn't have beforehand. I don't think he's executed the best by any means, but it's not like Nintendo are flooded with Wrestlers and our other alternative is stuck farting. (Thanks Wario.)
>>729544579
The easy solution to this was to have a curated setlist of like 5 songs per stage that can be from multiple series and then have the rest of the "main" series as an option as well
>Yoshi's Island Melee has the curated list of SMW remixes
>Also has all of the other Yoshi songs because it's a Yoshi stage
>75M has NES Retro songs because it's a "retro stage"
>Also has the other DK songs because it's a DK series stage

Ultimate was a great game and still is fun to play, I just hate GSP fundamentally for online. Give us a proper unranked mode rather than pretending it's unranked but still giving you a number. I hate feeling penalised for not sweating yet in bordering Elite Smash and not comfortably in it I'm constantly met with tryhards when I do actually boot up.

Actual singleplayer content that isn't just spirits as well would be appreciated.

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>>729564401
Noir Dedede WILL be in Smash 6

>>729578295
Anon this is objectively wrong just by virtue of Castlevania, Splatoon and K.Rool.

If you stopped with Ultimate's launch roster the only character I'd deem "missing" was Banjo and even then that's a concession you could easily make.
I'm a KHFag and I think Ultimate's DLC roster was wank. Poorly executed gimmicks that were either forgettable (Banjo, Sora, Sephiroth), salt incarnate (Byleth, MinMin) or wildly overpowered (Kazuya, Steve)

It really feels like Sakurai just wants to see how far he can take a character within the constraints of the Smash system and that's how you ended up with the weird DLC playstyles. It's cute but I'd take a dozen simple, enjoyable fighters over any of these awkward meta-defining bastards.

>>729568460
>Smash 4 for 3DS in D tier
oh shit nigger what are you doing

>>729578863
Smash Run does not magically redeem Sm4sh's gameplay, as kino as it was

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>>729564763
Man our perspective of Smash has changed a lot in the last 10 years alone.

We had Cloud 10 years ago and people were generally hyped for him, and that was the same era where the Smash ballot was ongoing and during the Wii U era, characters like Sora, Bayonetta, and Banjo were highly requested. The situation wasn't really that people didn't want third parties, it's that they didn't believe they were possible without a "Nintendo connection" and that they didn't think Nintendo would put in the effort to include this many. It's simply easier to get people to be vocal about these things if they believe it's possible.

>>729578772
>It really feels like Sakurai just wants to see how far he can take a character within the constraints of the Smash system and that's how you ended up with the weird DLC playstyles. It's cute but I'd take a dozen simple, enjoyable fighters over any of these awkward meta-defining bastards.
The issue isn't just the gimmicks of DLC characters being inherently imbalanced, it's that these bespoke gimmicks don't work within a mechanical framework where characters without them are effectively crippled. I don't think it's a contentious statement to say that all of the top tier characters in Ultimate don't actually play Smash:
>Steve forces every other character in the game to play his game
>Sonic doesn't play neutral because of his spin dash i-frames
>Snake is so FUCKING disgusting that I don't want to talk about him
>G&W plays "My shield is lava" and spams unpunishable aerials and smash attacks in neutral
And then there are other examples like Min-Min, Kazuya, Luigi, Diddy, Joker, and even Peach, Fox, and Mega Man. Characters who don't play Smash or simply break the mold due to one or two truly exceptional characteristics or mechanics. Mega Man is underrated, but he's also an inferior version of this archetype so it isn't unjustified. If you're not one of these characters, you're stuck playing safe, auto-cancel aerial spam with no way to approach because Ultimate is shallow and slow by design.

I think Tweek's an autist who can't communicate his ideas clearly, but he had an interesting thought along these lines, saying something to the effect of
>Sword characters are bad and if you're still playing them, you're behind the curve of Smash's design
tl;dr sword characters used to be better because they were the ones previously "not playing Smash", as disjointed hitboxes effectively gave them an advantage with no corresponding disadvantage in Brawl's, 4's, and early Ultimate's competitive meta. Gimmicks and zoners render them irrelevant now.

>>729564876
In fact when you really think about it, Brawl was the only game to NOT have a Mario Newcomer, Wario has the W for his series icon and not the Mushroom. I think the same would’ve still happened if Wario made it into Melee.

>>729580603
I ran out of characters, but my point is that if sword characters ("sword" really means disjoint, Palutena is a sword character) are being outmoded, what hope do water-flavored milquetoasts like Mario, Link, and Captain Falcon have? You're seeing it happen right now in Japanese tournaments, with players like Snow (who plays Mario) getting shit on by worse players carried by broken top tiers who aren't playing Smash.

One of two things needs to happen: either the DLC privilege is culled (unlikely) or there's a radical mechanical overhaul that gives characters without gimmicks good approach options, movement, and mix-ups so more of them can function at characters like Fox's and Joker's level (also unlikely).

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>>729566904
Even the 2 year gap between 64 and Melee was insane, we will never have a cool graphical generation leap such as this anymore.

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>>729567083
>There's like no decent 1st party characters left

If they went with characters from the 90s and 2000s yeah maybe but they opted for shit like 2010s characters which people had no nostalgia for at the time.

This Smash REX Tier List is based on Decade of Debut for certain characters

It’s unironically pretty barebones

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>>729568384
Mimicutie Sex

>>729569993
No, it will probably go back to being Nintendo again. Besides the fact that its too expensive to bring all the previous guest characters back (unless they were DLC again), Nintendo wants to promote their own characters. K Rool is an example of this. They have certain characters they want to push and they want people to get hyped to see a Nintendo character. Basically, they want the same energy for character reveals to be channeled into their characters.

>>729567847
Imagine having both Animal Crossing stages that look very similar but leaving out Planet Zebes and Sector Z from 64 which could coexist with Melee’s Coneria and Brinstar.

Also I’m sick of Mario’s stages mainly being Grassy Plains, a Mario Party stage would’ve been sick.

>>729578772
not trying to shill, but RoA2 is proof that gimmicks and good fundamental mechanics can coexist. which of these two characters do you think is an S tier character?
>middleweight rushdown character
>frame 2 shine, but it's weaker than Melee shine because it can be crouch canceled and parried
>can light opponent's on fire, dealing 5% over 5 seconds
>can leave a little bit of fire on the ground
>if the opponent is on fire, smash attacks and his fthrow are stronger
or
>heavyweight setplay character
>enters an empowered state if he hits opponents, loses his empowered state if he's hit
>neutral special is the best projectile in the game, and if he's empowered it returns to him like K. Rool's crown, but better
>side special is a telegraphed burst option that covers half the average stage, can be jump canceled, and kills if it's empowered
>up special creates a platform when empowered, which can be controlled with up special (moving it side to side) or down special (moving it up)
>when empowered, strong attacks and dair leave stationary drills where the attack ended
>ledge special getup is a command grab that also leaves a drill
>drills are inert and can be destroyed, but knock opponents in the direction they're facing if they're in hit stun
>can magnetize opponents to himself off of a grab
surprise, it's character #1, because it turns out that being a rushdown character with good air speed and frame data actually matters when the mechanics of the game allow you to approach, pressure, and combo. character #2 is considered the worst in the game, but it's also a trick question because he's B tier at the absolute worst and pretty fun to play as and against.

it's Sakurai's "Smash system" that's the issue. it kneecaps any character with these "weird DLC playstyles" because the fundamentals just aren't there.

>>729543510
>boring tedious single player
>dlc pay 2 win
>fire emblem and weeby sword fighters making up 80% of the cast
>online modes suck dick, arenas are okay at best
>playerbase is just manchildren who never learned hygiene
Still sharts on sm4sh, but not much of a bar to clear with that one.

>>729581391
the roster, stages, and OST are very expansive, but everything else (including the gameplay) is bare-bones. who cares that i can play as 80 characters when 40 of them are just back air bots?

>no rollback did unrepairable damage to the smash 4 scene back during the scamdemic where all physical tournaments were shutdown
>2020 sexual assault allegations took so many pro players and other prominent figures out of the scene
>Panda Global colluding with Nintendo to shut down any major that wasn't theres hurt the scene so fucking much
>Steve. Smash ult dev team disbanded too so no patches to fix him.
Those are the main reasons why the game is on life support. So many major things happened in a short timespan and the community never got a chance to heal.

>>729582795
to the smash ult scene*

>>729577004
thankfully this can be fixed with mods, it's utterly retarded that this was changed

>>729581328
Smash REX has such a good roster and the new chars feel different enough. And they even bothered making trophies with descriptions.

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>He genuinely believes Sakurai will cave in without resistance if Nintendo tells him to cut the Fire Emblem characters in half

Spirits were stupid.
I don't mind them being equipment but the fact that they literally have LESS information or context attached to them than fucking stickers is insane. It makes them being specific characters and references seem totally incidental. I'm surprised they didn't realize this before the game came out.
Yet they kept acting like they were worth revolving entire content updates around. Why? Why delay releasing what are essentially arbitrary pieces of equipment?

brawl still has the best sfx

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>>729568860
>Some items that never made it back like the Cracker Launcher are also really fun to use.

I kinda miss the Fan you whack people with and the Screw Attack that’s not a dumb badge but a ball you throw at someone to make them do a Screw Attack in Melee. The Parasol was ParaSOUL.

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>>729568860
>Peach having free combos

And a cute uncensored tushy, remember when Smash was rated T for Teen? Good times.

>>729581328
The new characters they've been adding are pretty well made but they really need an actual artist to animate them because holy shit do they look choppy in motion

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>>729569156
Splatoon Inkling would definitely be in Smash 64 if it were made today

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>>729583626
Why would I want all 8 of Marth's alt skins to be taken by alt characters? I quite a bit of his pallet swaps.

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>>729572840
The fact that Mario Kart World went back to exclusively Mario Characters has me wondering how Nintendo will handle Smash 6.

>>729584929
If Smash 64 was made today, why would Falcon be there? He hasn't had a game in over 20 yeaes. Better to replace him with a character from a more relevant franchise like Byleth.

>>729578441
All the hate towards Incineroar should be directed at Byleth. Because at least Incineroar was base roster, you didn’t have to pay for him. Smash never had trial testing for DLC characters to try them before you buy them. Even Multiversus had the option to try out a character before you buy them.

>>729544484
>>729563045
Nah smash peaked at brawl. Melee is garbage

>>729553593
>>729558215
>>729558461
Smelee’s glitches is not actual gameplay, now stop touching yourself in the gym

>>729585853
Nah it should have been directed at Joker, a shill character with absolutely no history with Nintendo outside of some shitty spinoff absolutely nobody played