Maybe some 30% of players make it past lvl 10. Half of lvl 10 characters make it to 25. So, maybe 15% of people make it to 25. 10% of lvl 10 characters on Classic make it to 60. Shouldn't the game drop leveling, at least on sandbox PvP servers? Make durability require materials, and you have a sandbox MMO where people can play any class and profession and thus have something to do when they get tired of doing BGs after a few hours.
>10% of lvl 10 characters on Classic make it to 60i mean a lot of people make alts and dont go above 20 with them soooo........
OP do you think people didn't enjoy a game just because they didn't complete it?
>drop levelingjust stop being fucking retarded. why do so many people and devs go full retard at all times.>hurr durr thing have bad, therefore rip it out entirelyheres a super novel idea for you retards, why not look at why something isnt working out and change it so thats not a problem anymore>levelling is... le bad, why?- because of the power creep between high and low levelsok so why not just reduce the power creep? WoW goes full retard with levelling power creep. you dont NEED that insane level of power creep to make leveling up give a sense of character progression, you dont NEED characters 3-4 levels lower than you to be free kills due to weapon skill/spell resist inherent advantages making it completely 1 sided. You dont even need stat increases with level ups, stats from gear and new abilities should be enough of an increase in power, and balance mobs with that in mind as well.
>>729613369You think a lot of people play 8-15 hours to make it to 10?>>729613458I think people didn't enjoy Classic some for different reasons than leveling, for example phasing, and I don't think people enjoy linear ilvl pushing on retail. Every game should be able to get a large percentage of retention. People want a game that everyone plays, etc. WoW not being able to do that is telling.
>>729613641It doesn't matter how good you make a game, most players are not going to get to the end unless you make it dumb and short.
>>729613641>You think a lot of people play 8-15 hours to make it to 10?what are you even talking about?
>>729613587What do you think leveling solves that full gear trading doesn't bring together in droves? People want to be able to play with their friends immediately, play their full class and professions without a dozen or two hours of a tutorial, and live in a world where they can make a lot of gold gathering, crafting, trading, PvEing, and perhaps PvPing.
>>729613723Leveling isn't good. It massively segregates players and obsoletes 90% of the world
>>729613856Those people can play Peak, Schedule I, Phasmophobia, or plenty of other friend slop.
>>729613946Good, that's a positive. Why would I want to play with newfags in a coop game?
>>729613856>What do you think leveling solvesit drip feeds new skills/abilities/talents to the player so they dont get overwhelmed and quit, keep in mind players getting overwhelmed was one point blizzard thought was a reason why people quit early which is why they dumbed the game down more for new players.It also gives a sense of progression.>>729613946only if done in a shitty way.
>>729613980That's a disconnect that proves you don't really like WoW / want it to be popular.>>729614048That's a disconnect that proves you don't really want an MMO.
why does this jeet keep making this same thread every fucking day
>>729614132Not wanting a leveling experience in an MMORPG is a disconnect that means you don't want an MMORPG. You can play Helldivers 2 which allows you to play with anyone immediately out the gate.
>>729613856>People want to be able to play with their friends immediatelyMmos don't really support that, neither with old design paradigm or new, there are plenty of friendslop for that nowdays anyway and friendslop audience has very little crossover with mmo one
>>729614121I mean WoW's leveling is obviously the topic here. The statistics prove that people don't want to level for dozens or hundreds of hours.
>>729614226>Mmos don't really support that, neither with old design paradigm or new,WRONG YOU BRAIN IN A BOX RETARDSWG NEW PLAYERS COULD GROUP WITH OLD AND STILL BE USEFULEVE ONLINE NEW PLAYERS CAN GROUP WITH OLD AND BE USEFULHURRR LE FUCKING DURR NIGGERHURR LE DURR> IT DIDNT WORK THAT WAY IN WOW AND WOW IS THE ONLY MMO DESIGN THAT CAN EVER EXIST BECAUSE MY BRAIN IS IN A FUCKING BOXHURRRRRWOW DESIGN IS THE ONLY MMO DESIGN THAT EXISTS AND IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY IN WOWUHH YOU WANT TO CHANGE X THING? THAT WOULDNT WORK VERY WELL IN A WOW CLONE, CHECKMATE BRO LOLevery discussion about mmos is the same thing, its just wowniggers talking about how it works in wow as if thats the way it has to work in every single MMO that has ever or will ever exist because the only one they play, that one and a few wow clones that they dont even understand are wow clones. mind in a fucking box and cant get out
>>729614246> The statistics proveShow me the statistics that show that 90% of people who try the game dont go above level 10.
>>729614246BF6 had like 80% online drop out in a month, Helldivers 2 are nowhere near its peak fotm online either. Most people aren't going to stick with the same game long enough period, leveling isn't the culprit here, the trend is the same across the industry as a whole.
Drop the stupid monthly sub and i'll come back just to do BGs. I'm not paying $15 a month to sit in queues.
>>729613306Albion online is LITERALLY what you described you stupid nigger. And no it isnt fun.
>>729614218RPGs existed before XP. Your No True Sandbox MMORPG or whatever isn't tuned to the wants of players.>>729614226They do. Everything can be done with gear.What makes you think people want to level for dozens, if not hundreds, of hours?
>Maybe some 30% of players make it past lvl 10. Half of lvl 10 characters make it to 25. So, maybe 15% of people make it to 25. 10% of lvl 10 characters on Classic make it to 60Why does the OP keep making this retarded thread with this retarded line? Will you please fucking kill yourself you brown faggot
>>729614413>EVE ONLINE NEW PLAYERS CAN GROUP WITH OLD AND BE USEFULYou never played eve, you aren't useful for anything in it till at least few weeks in, realistically a month.It didn't work that way in most mmos even before wow you fucking spastic. From EQ and AO to DAoC, RO and L2.
>>729614953What else are you supposed to do in India all day? At least you have the satisfaction of poisoning the internet for first-worlders.
>>729614510>Appeal to absurdity.>>729614525DOTA 2 accumulates 13M hours of play per day. BF not being very good or whatever doesn't detract from the fact that people all want to play the same game in a persistent world.>>729614868Albion isn't WoW, and it shows.
>>729614953No life neet who lives in his own turds. Hes been shitposting this gear = progress idea for literally years its amazing he hasnt been perma banned for this dumb bait.
>>729614965>it doesnt work that way in most mmosliterally speaking; not an argument.
>>729615175>>Appeal to absurdity.its not an "appeal to absurdity" to ask OP for a source to his claims.god damn why do i even come here, you people are all dumb as shit. actual fucking baboons that should be put down for the good of society
>>729615175>I want X>Here is X>NOOO REEE NOO REEEEEEEE NOT THE SAME NOOO IT CANT BEIts the exact same as you described. Gear is progress, progress is limited by repairing, anyone can play any class at any point. Shut the fuck up jeet./thread
>>729614413>its just wowniggers talking about how it works in wow as if thats the way it has to work in every single MMO that has ever or will ever existthe reason why they do this is because they believe that WoW was the only mmo that lasted the tests of time because they think that they were the only ones that lasted but that's not true, wow catering to teenagers seeking a casual medievil fantasy game that got celeb endorsements is the only reason why it lasted for so long. Infact many of it's 2004 competition were better then it are making a comeback in 2025+ and I can't wait to see what the future has instore for them
>>729614953>>729615095>>729615190Not an argument.PS: I'm white, living in the US.
>>729613306Nobody cares about PvP in MMOsAt least not in big enough numbers to justify catering to them
>>729615175>Asking for a source is appeal to absurdityYou can’t possibly be this retarded.
>>729613306Leveling is THE game. Leveling should be slower.
>>729615175>Albion isn't WoW, and it showsYeah, which is exactly why WoW isn’t ever going to do what OP suggests.
>>729614183>>729614953>>729615095>>729615190Stupid butt hurt samefag!
>>729614965You can be useful immediately in EVE. You just won't know what you're doing for the first hour or few.>>729615217Don't shitpost.>>729615293Show me where I said 90% of people who try the game don't go above level 10.>>729615296You have to admit that no trinity, and only having 6 abilities, reduces its appeal.
>>729614413In neither SWG nor EVE can you play with your friends immediately you fucking mongoloid. “New” for those games means a month or two of steady play, not “hey bro go download this game and we’ll play together tonight” which is what he’s talking about.
>>729615586You literally aren't useful for anything, neither in current eve where you get 1m sp for free on account creation nor in the old eve where you had fucking learnings. The general advice back then was to literally park yourself for few months with stat implants to speedrun learning if you wanted to play eve seriously.
>>729615586>Show me where I said 90% of people who try the game don't go above level 10.okay not 90% but you siad maybe some 70%. my bad bro. hey now that we got that out of the way. show the proof that its somwhere around 70% of people who get the game dont go above level 10.>Maybe some 30% of players make it past lvl 10.the first sentence of your post. now show source or stop making these shit threads, thanks
>>729613306If these niggas can't even bother leveling there is no way they would be interested in doing engame
>>729615316lol
mmos need 10x more leveling and grinding they turned into daily gacha chores, bring back the real shit for real autists or fuck off
>>729615980
>>729615792wrong. new players in SWG could have buffs or CC that would help out with higher level content, also newer p;layers could wear higher level armors/weapons to be stronger than usual. but anyways its a moot point, just dont have insane power creep with levels and then high levels can play with lower levels just fine. It would be easy to make a leveling system where content is not gated into people all within 5-10 levels of each other. game designers having shitty imagination is the only thing keeping them from being unable to do this.
>>729613306your suggestions are really weird. you're basically asking for a different game
>>729613306why use WoW as the op image? no straight white man wants to play WoW because of the commiefornian tranny company handling it, not because of any gameplay aspects of the game.
https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/729339287/#729339287https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/729187054/#729187054https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/729108185/#729108185https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/729043480/#729043480https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728952921/#728952921https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728897932/#728897932https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728886075/#728886075https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728809931/#728809931https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728656378/#728656378https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728588480/#728588480https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728549006/#728549006https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/728506950/#728506950why do you keep making the same thread over and overfuck off
>>729616130the gameplay is stale dogshit as well
i reinstalled guild wars and im having fun
>>729615398A StarCraft 2 poll result was "43% of respondents said they primarily played for versus mode, while 36% primarily played the campaign", and that's an RTS. More people, e.g., in retail are going to play BGs than those that don't.
>>729616201because mmos have the highest concentration of schizos for some reason. probably something to do with autism and mmo's general gameplay loop
>>729616373How does the stats for an RTS have anything to do with MMOs
>>729615398thisPvP has always been a minigame within WoW, as much as the PvPfaggots tried to tell you otherwise
>>729615874Playing EVE with people is extremely fun. Parking isn't something that people wanting to play immediately would say. You just need a tackle or healer.
>>729615442See >>729615586.>>729615902https://www.vg247.com/only-30-of-new-wow-players-continue-after-level-10-says-blizzard.>>729615950So have better endgame (not linear ilvl pushing).
>>729616201He must honestly believe he's going to "influence" ongoing or future MMOs with his shit takes, which is honestly pretty schizo. After making the same thread a few times and getting blown the fuck out, a normal persons would reevaluate their own opinion and go "wow, I really was a retard about that, now what?"
>>729616464I guarantee you wow would have died ages ago if it had no pvp servers. me and my friends all played primarily for the pvp in classic, one friend even stopped leveling at 49 because he was having too much fun in 49 battlegrounds he would just play the AH and buy 49 twink gear and consumables to get max stats for BGs and crush people taking a break from levelling all day. back in ye olden days when you only had to wait 3-5 minutes for a battleground in any level group because everyone was doing battlegrounds at whatever level they were at.
>>729616024Not an argument.>>729616121How so? The gameplay is the same; you just don't have to do however many hours of chores.
>>729616463You're free to try to find WoW stats.
>gets BTFO>"n-not an argument!!!"
>>729616201I used to be fine with neurodivergent people, being an awkward sperg myself. In the past couple years /v/ made be go full 1488. All autists need to be holocausted. Babies should be forced diagnosed for signs, ripped from their mother and thrown into the oven
>>729616972so thats why war mode killed the game right
I think Mabinogi is the best MMO you can play in current day. It is also being remade in Unreal 5 with all progress carrying over. I will replay once with a screenshot showcasing it.
>>729616842> only about 30 percent of our trial playersso basically people interested enough to try for free but not interested enough to buy a month of playtime quit early when they get the jist of the game.again this is TRIAL accounts, not all wow players.
>>729616915>blown the fuck out>Hey, guys, leveling loses most players, and linear ilvl pushing isn't fun.If you disagree with themeparks at all, or even having nothing to do when a game throws dozens of systems like pet battling at you, you agree with me.
>>729617164I'll try the game out when the graphics overhaul drops.I love the music in Mabi
>>729617141the only people who care about retail wow are mom gamers and girls who play wow because their boyfriend does, wow sub numbers are boosted by classic players, which has pvp servers.
>>729617164>>729617252
https://youtube.com/@1i1jlij1l1i1j?si=zYQkTmKifxTNZ6mW
>>729617171Players are players. A game should try for 100% retention. People all want to play the same game, etc.
>>729613306>Shouldn't the game drop leveling, at least on sandbox PvP servers?PvP faggots should rope, is what I think.>>729614884>RPGs existed before XP.Name three.
>>729616975>not an argumentleveling is a core part of mmos, if you dont like it and just want to pvp go play some assfaggots you faggot
>>729617379"30% of trial players" does not mean "30% of wow players". your OP is disengenous at best but if we are being honest we know the real problem is that you are a fucking retard for making this thread some 12 times.
>>729613306Because many random boomers dip into classic for a nostalgia trip and quit after a while. Nothing wrong with it. It's an old game with many flaws but it still interests people so they keep it around.
Albion Online.
theyve literally made the game youre asking for op. several times in the last few years. fellowship, and another one similar. destiny, warframe, remnant. there are lots of mmos out there that dont have leveling but for some reason youre making this about wow. go play those
>>729616130>>729616202What are the chances that these two are indiands or retard zoomers who grew up with indian memes >no saaar very very white sar
>>729617674Ugly UIyes this is the only reason I refuse to play it
>>729617709you can't expect a blizzdrone to try other games
>>729617418>Name three.Braunstein, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon.>>729617442>Appeal to tradition.Again, RPGs existed before XP or leveling.
>>729613306Disregard WoW-like sloppenheimers.All Hail to the true king of MMOs.... That's right, Kingdom of Loathing babyyyyy!
>>729617487Do you play WoW?If so, do you think there is enough to do?
>>729617709Approximately none of those are MMOs.
>>729617935>BraunsteinYeah and its a game where you roleplay as a fucking baker, or banker in a town. Real fucking exciting, retard.>TravellerCurrency is your version of XP.>CoCThe one good game on the list>PendragonShitThis is your argument lil bro? Games nobody GAF about or played, that wouldn't work as RPGs in 2025, and CoC?Have you even played ANY of the MMOs that do what you want them to do? I have. They all died for a fucking reason.
>>729613369the legions of lvl 1 gold-spam bots, bank alts, people reserving names etc makes this stat a joke.>>729613306>drop leveling entirelygo be a cancerous retoilet junkie somewhere else faggot OP.
>>729618302What A+ sandbox PvP game has launched in the last 10-20 years?What games are you even suggesting are, e.g., no leveling, no bind-on, and material repairs durability?>>729618421It only counts lvl 10s and up. You literally have to grind 8-15 hours to get on that statistic.
>>729613856>People want to be able to play with their friends immediatelyYou know, all their friends could start a lvl 1 character and play together, then when they reach level 60 they just switch to their real character.What's so fucking difficult to understand about this?Plus, the fucking leveling experience is like 70% of the whole game, skipping it would make 95% of the whole world become empty and obsolete, plus, you'd still need to go around leveling crafting skills and battle skills, which you can do easier when you're through the process of leveling.But I guess retards have egos so big they can't understand that if they invited a friend to play, they'd need to drop their max level character and actually play with that friend and teach him how to play.
>>729618632>What A+ sandbox PvP game has launched in the last 10-20 years?Rust. Rust has like 100k players average still despite coming out 8 years ago. It also has full loot pvp, character progression by learning new recipes and advancing characters that way. Learning recipes is a pseudo level up system where you use scrap as XP to unlock parts of a tech.The reason full loot pvp and the pseudo level uo system work in pvp is that they dont stop low level players from being relevant in endgame. Despite having character progression you arent gated from high content by stats, as long as you get the items you can compete with anyone and you can get the items in a few minutes of playtime if you are lucky and skilled.
>>729618721WoW literally has party sync that will scale you to your friends level lol
>>729618721>Plus, the fucking leveling experience is like 70% of the whole gameAnd people obviously don't want to do that.>skipping it would make 95% of the whole world become empty and obsoleteYou can just have equipment, which doesn't arbitrarily segment players and obsolete 90% of the world. Material repairs makes sure people are actually using non-max materials. Now, people don't have to do world quests and grind mobs for the majority of the game. They get and use lower level enchants. They gather herbs in the mountains. They play the auction house because now it isn't saturated. It's literally 100% better. Everybody knows a themepark has problems not being able to keep up with content. Sandbox gameplay fixes all of it.>>729618932Rust is not an MMO.
ffxiv player i've been playing ffxi. Add rune to 14.
>>729619379Nigger you have spent this entire thread moving the goalposts whenever someone gives you an ironclad example of exactly the game you want. Just kill yourself already.
>>729619461soul, so glad that game is still alive.
>>729619690I haven't, and there still aren't any A+ sandbox MMOs except perhaps Albion launched in the last 10-20 years.I like Rust; ARK is my favorite game; but the market needs sandbox MMOs.
>>729619461that game was fun until it wasn't. I have no idea what to do after juno
ashes of creation is a sandbox mmo but it is making the same mistake as wow as having levels be extremely impactful to player power which isnt good in sandbox pvp mmo but doesnt matter as much for things like wow.
>>729614413Take your meds
might start playing osrs again
>>729619859>I like Rust; ARK is my favorite gameGenuine question: How autistic are you?
>>729621978What do you mean?
>Play ARK.>Small Tribes has 2x rates or whatever and only 6 characters per tribe, no alliances.>Genesis 2 map; free Tek Suit.>Fly around and do blue beacons for a drill, or just use the suit's power punch to gather stone and metal.>Get 10-20 refining forges up in 10-20 minutes.>Fill them up part way with metal and wood so they smelt for an hour or two.>Get an industrial base up in a few hours.>Don't put turrets up, because I want people to use my base.>Base spot is probably the best in the game; has a ton of metal and rich nodes.>Metal is only 1 resource carrying most items, which is fine because good spots are rare and competitive.>Genesis 2 beacons drop some of the best items and blueprints in the game.I want future games and MMOs to take note.ARK might as well be an MMO because it lets you take your inventory to any server.
How did the French manage to make GOTY and the best MMORPG of 2025?
At me with your ideas.
>>729613306I'd say the best content is from 1-50. At least that's what I remember from wotlk days
>>729613306>Shouldn't the game drop leveling, at least on sandbox PvP stopped reading therepeople that play mmo pvp only do so because they cannot compete in other games so they require mechanical advantage to secure winsif there isn't leveling, you've deincentivized these players by removing a portion of their easy "prey" targets
>>729623665Do you honestly think all servers should be PvE? WoW has a lot to develop, maybe no factions on some servers, but the game would be less fun if you weren't on the edge of your seat.
I think MMORPGs are just a dying genre. Zoomers/Gen A doesn't play them. Millennials and to some less extent Gen Xers are the only ones but they have less time than ever due to working. So MMOs have just become extremely casual and shortform in order to keep up with ageing gamers. The days of being immersed in a world like 1990s EQ or early 2000s FFXI are just over. It was once in a lifetime. Im glad I was there to experience it at least.
>>729623423Goblin dungeon/civilization caves underground
>>729624438Everybody wants to play 1 game so they're invested in it. That has some limitations, like playing an MMORPG and still wanting to play an FPS. However, shared, persistent worlds with thousands of players are an optimal.They should make WoW 2 for better graphics, and there are technically a few types of games they could make that don't compete with WoW. However, I think better graphics, either way, should be a priority.
>>729625161i dont think we're ever gonna get a big budget mmorpg ever again, at least on the scale of WoW. Korea keeps pushing out these cashgrabs like AION2 but they die in a month
>729623258>240 results foundmeds, schizo ass dev, buy an ad.
>>729625464A few developers could make a few mobs and a zone per day and have an MMO in a month or two.
>>729624934Like have a / multiple layers below the surface to play on?
>>729624934>Have to deal with pathing 50 units down a cave.
>>729617736neither of them are as indian as you are for doing damage control for a multibillion dollar company that's currently circling the drain
Albion Online
>>729626998> as you are for doing damage control for a multibillion dollar company that's currently circling the drainMentally ill retard.
>>729623793i don't really care what wow does or didi was a neocron player at the time
>>729613306>statistics in a game with bots, multiboxxing, no account limits etcbased retard
no that's the game pretending your an epic warrior and lvling up it's for people who like suffering, play a game without rpg mechanics since they are extremely cancerous in many ways.
>>729613306>remove the game so I can watch the credits and move onLove it. Like people who cry about grinding in Diablo or Nioh.
>>729627460Most people don't bot or multibox. Retail has approximately 1 max level per account. If bots or multiboxing mattered, people would have more.
>>729627518Replacing leveling with full gear trading and materials durability would objectively make WoW a better game. Imagine being able to play any class, any role, and any profession. More people would play together because more things to do exist, and more people would play and for longer because a diverse set of making your place in the world exists.
>>729627543What exactly disappears if leveling is replaced by durability, material demand, professions, and PvP conflict?
>>729613641>phasingThis wasn't added until much much much later. Like. Wotlk/cata
>>729627543>Replacing the themepark nothing-to-do with a sandbox do-whatever-you-want (whenever you want), the world is alive again and matters (not just 10% at lvl 80), and all players can play together.>Not good.It's the only alternative to what WoW has become and that designs for what gaming preferences have become.
>>729628224>What exactly disappears if leveling is replaced by durability, material demand, professions, and PvP conflict?The entire reason to play the game. The ending is not the goal, the journey is. That's why people constantly play on fresh servers or modded servers like turtle. Endgame is cuck garbage for retards like you who probably can't even do mechanics correctly.
>>729628359Phasing was in Classic vanilla.
>>729628684Equipment provides he same sense of progression, except you have to start at a low ilvl if you lose all your equipment and gold. This isn't likely, but the point remains that a sandbox (like, literally just material repairs if that's what you want) has the same gameplay and vastly more accessibility and replayability. The stats prove that people don't want to level (deal with that). Retail vastly sped up leveling, and people still only have 1 max character.
>>729629035>The stats prove that people don't want to level (deal with that)Because the old content is rancid and the new content is garbage.
>>729615980>>729616028'08'09goddamn boomers
>>729629109You mean retail? They don't want to level in Classic either. That's maybe because of phasing, and at least we have the numbers in case they ever make vanilla without phasing, but isn't it obvious that themepark gameplay isn't high retention or thus sustainable?
>>729623423Think of total war type overlay map with a huge map of 2-3 factions who control different territory. The factions actions on the overlay map is controlled by AI. players can choose to join battles/skirmishes in different regions. These battles can be 8 vs 8 or 32 vs 32 players or whatever. Battles can have different objectives depending on who controls the region and what type of region it is. outcomes of battle affect a factions control score.Players get experience and level up which allows them more customization for their army based on a point system. Customizations are not straight upgrades its more like different flavours of the same faction in command and conquer like how one sect of nod focused more heavily on flame throwers at the expense of other units. So maybe a player will unlock a bunch of different flavors of light and cheap infantry at the expense of everything else or whatever.
>>729629035>The stats prove that people don't want to levelthey dont. you are mentally ill.
Maybe .1%-1% of people that have ever subbed are subbed. WoW has a huge churn problem, and most players leaving before lvl 10 makes this obvious. You can't hand-wave a 70% loss of players before talents or professions are introduced.Post your insights. I think this proves the necessity of sandbox servers. The people who want to grind mobs and quest for however many hours without being able to play another class or with their friends / others can, but the likelihood (in a perfect iteration with pointed advertising) is that people want to feel relevant immediately, and a huge number of people would play.
>>729619859>but the market needs sandbox MMOs.The market doesn't need sandbox mmos, these games fail 100% of the time, the market needs a quality mmo that has good content, good leveling experience and good raids, the market needs a better wow that brings back the 2004 vibes.And as the other anons said, you're literally describing games that already exist, if you want that go play those games, don't start destroying beloved games.
>>729630279>People have 1 max lvl character.>Out of 13.>"Not experiencing 12/13 classes at max level is good, guys! Leveling is good!!!"
Classic with layering and megaservers isn't classic.Without the "multiple servers with 3k limit" structure, it simply isn't the same and the leveling/open-world experience loses everything that made it special.
>>729630462>if leveling was good then people would do it 13 times, even with classes they hateI reject this premise because it is retarded. Good day
>>729630351Again, what A+ sandbox MMO has been launched in the past 10-20 years except Albion? We have a whole 1 example of sandbox MMORPGs, and it doesn't even have trinity or WoW amounts of abilities.Leveling segments players and makes 90% of the world irrelevant -- again, you can do everything with equipment, which fixes approximately everything. I don't think you can argue these points or against the stats.
>>729630717No, you rejecting that premise while inventing a strawman is retarded. Approximately nobody hates 12/13 classes. The 1 max per account being catastrophic still stands.
>You don't have to remove leveling; just don't have large stat differences ~ between players.What's the point of forcing people to grind mobs or quest?
i really don't know where this pajeet gets the idea that full gear trading in a game without leveling suddenly makes the whole world relevant, if anything it makes shit even worse>john mcwarriorman is farming for his super demon blood omega deathplate armor set which is the best-in-slot>in the process he gets hundreds if not thousands of useless-to-him mythril chainmail armor pieces>sells them for a pittance because he might as well>mythril chainmail armor drops in price drastically because everyone is farming super demon blood omega deathplate and getting tons of this junk armor>new players can just buy mythril chainmail armor sets for basically nothing which completely invalidates every armor set between shit-stained rags and mythril chainmail>altruistic players might even go around just giving away mythril chainmail sets to newbies>huge swaths of the world now have no purposenothing changes unless you just remove progression entirely
>>729630909>1 max per account this is your head cannon though. Some people made more than one. Real people have time constraints though and are not able to make 4-5 max level characters in an MMO, and real people do typically have a few classes they simply dont enjoy, or only 1-2 they are interested in.
>>729630784>Again, what A+ sandbox MMO has been launched in the past 10-20 years except AlbionThat game is played by almost no one compared to the amount of players wow has daily.Most if not all of the mmo enjoyers don't like albion, be it for the lack of content or be it for the forced full loot hardcore pvp zones, these things aren't liked by people who want to play an mmo, that's why there's tons of people playing classic anniversary and there's not so many playing albion.
>>729631134you make the same mistake as OP as setting up an idea to fail based on how that idea would work if you implemented it into a game where nothing else in the game worked to support that idea.Basically talking about MMOs on /v/ is completely pointless because no on here is over 14 years old or is not autistic, so you dont have anyone who is capable of actually thinking an original thought that hasnt been ran through a WoW style mmo filter of ideas.
>>729627748and most people that bot go through a massive number of separate accounts.> Retail has approximately 1 max level per account. If bots or multiboxing mattered, people would have more.It's the opposite.
>>729616028holy mogging
>>729628224>what happens if I remove the levels from mario and replace it with a single unchanging level
>>729631115>forcingim sorry did a blizzard dev sneak into your house and force you at gunpoint to play his game?
>>729631134>Inventing the unlikely scenario that a dev studio doesn't balance drop rates.Technically, without full loot, you're going to start finding extra amounts of specific items/sets, but bank and inventory slots are capped. You can only have so much before you disenchant (the likelihood in a well designed game) or vendor (maybe a possibility for a larger amount of gold if a good sink exists). I'm not finding the problem.
>>729616028That's all Everquest did? That's pretty pathetic considering how much it gets brought up.
>>729631298>this is your head cannon though.It's not, and you seem disingenuous.https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/what-if-wow-quietly-revealed-a-9-million-subscriber-number/.
why does /v/ keep falling for an obvious bot-schizo?
>>729631336I'm not using Albion as an example of what WoW players would play, but 70% of players quitting near lvl 10 is damning to leveling as quality onboarding. Just let people play whatever class and profession they want; vastly more people would play.
>>729631418i just flat out don't see how full gear trading can coexist with progression in any circumstance no matter how you design it. it's not a matter of being an original thought, it's a fundamental issue with the two concepts being incompatible. you can't have the possiblity of a player buying a near-endgame armor set for cheap from someone who's at endgame and has no use for it, and then also have all the interim progression and the world designed around that progression matter at all.>>729631620if endgame gear is easy to obtain and easily replaced, it's cheap and affordable and everything else is irrelevant.if endgame gear is hard to obtain and has to be actively farmed, then whatever gear is a tier below it experiences a huge surplus of supply and the price craters, making everything below it irrelevant.you can't "balance droprates" your way out of this, it's simply how economies work.
The thing that gets me about these threads is how WoW players literally cannot conceive of any design that isn't like WoW.
do not, under any circumstance, play toram online
>>729631432It's not. If botting is free max levels and professions, that's more gold and better ilvl. Why would somebody botting waste gold on extra accounts? The economy is capped because professions are so meaningless. You can't just sell more items; there's no demand.
the thing that gets me about these threads is how the jeet OP can never articulate any of his points whatsoever but still continues to post these threads day in and day out
>>729631498>False equivalence.You're making more zones relevant when you replace leveling, not less.
>>729631571There's an understood "just to get to max level (or whatever social relevance)". Is English not your first language?
>>729632043why
>>729631725>Your headcanon.>Relevant or interesting.
>play wow>99% of content is irrelevant because you hit max level in 20 minutes>play jeetgame this schizo is obsessed about>99% of content is irrelevant because you can just buy the best gear from a chinese bot farm for penniesamazing idea desuthis is exactly what the MMO genre needs
>>729632018Yes they can
>>729632362proof?
>>729632383I did it just now.
>>729632212>no no you see in the game i made up in my head the devs are forcing me to quest or grind mobs>why would they do thisdid they give an insane asylum internet access or something or are you asking why some devs do it in some games? Im sure different games can have some different reasons, did you want someone to list them all?
sounds like this is your dream game bro
>>729631854>you can't "balance droprates" your way out of thisI can; MV=PQ. Just set drop rates to be limited by amounts already existing.You probably don't even have to do that. Disenchantment materials are always required for repairs, theoretically, so all equipment always has value.
>>729632130>because I said so
>>729632630*farms it all and then never lets anybody loot any ever again*Nice game, retard
>>729632078If these threads exist every day, and you cannot understand the obvious points of themepark vs. sandbox, that's obviously a you problem.
>>729632630>endgame gear is hoarded by a select group of autists who speedrun the game and then never use their stores, keeping a complete stranglehold on the supply and ensuring they are always the objectively strongest players on the serversounds like fun!>durability systems for gear that necessitate you constantly destroy gear to continue using itwow that also sounds like fun! i love tedious inventory management!
>you know what would make MMOs better? if EVERY PIECE OF ENDGAME GEAR was subject to a dedicated group controlling the entire supply and extorting everyone else for outrageous prices, like with devilsaur mafias in wow>and also the game should have full loot PVP so that once you buy that gear you can just get killed by that same group so they can take the gear backit's really funny how stupid this faggot is
>>729631854>i just flat out don't see how full gear trading can coexist with progression in any circumstance no matter how you design it. it's not a matter of being an original thought, it's a fundamental issue with the two concepts being incompatibleIncompatible in a game like wow where PvE content comes down to stat checks and gear is something you get in order to then do the next raid tier slightly faster where every raid is a straight up progression over the next one. These concepts are not inherent to MMOs as a whole.
>>729632312Again, do you not know the obvious design differences between (nothing to do) themeparks, and (you can do whatever you want) sandboxes? Pro tip: It's material repairs durability, and plausibly no bind-on (having full gear trading). With crafting loops and material durability, all items are relevant.
>>729632931so you have to remove vertical progression to facilitate this, which means there's no reason to actually do anything in the game since you start at 100% power.great idea.
>>729613306How long is this bot going to be making these threads for?
>>729632447>no no you see in the game i made up in my head the devs are forcing me to quest or grind mobsThe OP specifically references WoW; what do you think leveling is? It's obviously grinding mobs and quests for dozens, if not hundreds, of hours.
>>729632942>if i just chain buzzwords together it'll magically form into an argumentlmaofucking jeets i swearliterally dumber than niggers
>>729613856>People want to be able to play with their friends immediately, play their full class and professions without a dozen or two hours of a tutorialPlease please please speak for yourself by jumping off the nearest cliff.
>>729632942how do any of those systems stop you from simply buying the best gear from a chinese bot farm for $0.02 because of full gear tradingexplain in your own words
Your MMO needs playable Goblin girls.
>>729631854>Full tradingYou could have durability that cant be repaired to make it so items eventually disappear to prevent over saturation of items, and to get players regularly updating their gear. Also dont make the game just 1 big stat check where a person in the next tier of gear is hugely more strong than the guy wearing the last gear, have it increase in power incrementally and have niche affects be a big part of why you would want the next tier of gear, like tier 2 has some QoL effect on it or soemthing, like maybe tier 2 boots are same as tier 1 stat wise but also have 20% reduction to snare effects on the player.>progressionhave endgame gear be in tiers, with tier 1 being like 5% stronger than basic endgame gear, tier 2 is 10% stronger, tier 3 is 15% stronger. tier 1 is pretty easy to get with basic crafting, tier 2 is like doing a dungeon quest or master crafting, tier 3 is max level crafting with expensive mats / rare drop, or harder dungeon event. Also, PvE is not a really progression of stat checks but a variety of content that provides different materials for crafting or different unique drops with niche affects on them, so you are not locked out of content for not having the best gear, and its more of a QoL thing to have the best or a PvP minmax thing.Have raids or dungeons having different variety of gear and not necessarily being harder in terms of stat checking but have different types of mechanics, have different types of uniques drop in different dungeons, different crafting mats, different recipes. so players want to do different PvE dungeons for things other than simply getting the gear to be able to do "the next" raid.
>>729633221basically none of that is actually relevant to what i said in my post, did you just copy-paste from chatgpt?
>>729633004>The OP specifically...The OP specifically says that it is an "MMO thread" in the title and does not say it is explicitly a wow thread even though he talks about some wow stuff he is trying to extrapolate that into MMO discussion as whole.
>>729613306How many fucking times are you going to make this thread?
>>729633221why even have gear at all if it's not needed for endgame content anywaywhy even have progression if you end up railroaded into a few areas for endgame anywaywhy even deviate from the tried-and-true themepark formula if you're just turning your game into a themepark anyway
>>729633268>basically none of that is actually relevant to what i said in my posti was answering>i just flat out don't see how full gear trading can coexist with progression in any circumstancewhat i said was explaining how a game would work with those 2 concepts.
>>729633383but you didn't do that because none of what you said has any relevance to what i said.
>>729633367>why even have gear at all if it's not needed for endgame content anywayyou clearly dont understand gamer nerds if you think they wont sperge out over an item with 10% better stats or QoL effects, especially in a game with PvP>why even have progression if you end up railroaded into a few areas for endgame anywaythats the fun part about not having a stat check gear treadmill where everything keeps progressing to higher lvl stat checks, it makes more of the content relevant for longer.>why even deviate from the tried-and-true themepark formula if you're just turning your game into a themepark anywayI never said nor implied i would turn the hypothetical game into a theme park, you are just having a schizo moment and filling the blanks in your head with your own ideas then getting confused about the ideas you have.
>>729633412I explained to you how gear trading could work in a system with progression but you are clearly too stupid to have a conversation with.
>>729633579no, you didn't. you vagueposted a bunch of concepts about how progression works but didn't even remotely touch on how full gear trading ties into that.i fully expect you to not reply to this post, or to simply vaguepost again, or try an ad hominem, because you fundamentally do not understand what you're even asking for.
>>729632975>the only type of vertical progression that exist is stat check tab target WoW combat type progressionthese are the "people" you "discuss" video games with.
>>729633701I literally had meme arrows talking about gear trading you fucking ape. what dont you understand exactly?
>>729633705always funny when browns try to pull the "you're stupid" card whenever they're backed into a cornerit works on them every time so surely it just always works, right?
>>729633780not backed intoa corner at all I just hate talking to double digit iq morons on 4chan.
>>729633754how any of that progression is relevant when you can buy the best gear from a chinese bot farm for two cents. or how anything before endgame is relevant either.
>>729632654Read the thread. The obvious way to remove leveling is to have only equipment, and to support high level equipment repair with crafting loops (e.g., disenchanting). The only caveat is getting repair requirements right.>>729632725>>729632781That would be easily fixed too, e.g., just allowing more eventually; but I'm not aware if I would even implement drop rates that way. It seems unnecessary. Just let inventory slots and demand deal with it.>>durability systems for gear that necessitate you constantly destroy gear to continue using it>wow that also sounds like fun! i love tedious inventory management!That’s not “tedious inventory management". It’s persistent consequences. Durability gives gear value, makes resource gathering meaningful, and turns failure or risk into gameplay -- not just a chore.
>>729633221>i hate leveling>i hate themepark mmos>i hate wow>here's my ideal MMO>describes wow but with P2W????????????
I play an MMORPG (Dofus) with full gear trading, leveling progression, and a working economy. Ask me anything!
>>729633917what kind of porn do you and the three other players like to jerk off to in your discord calls?
>>729633852>the game won't have tedious inventory management>but the supply of gear is primarily limited by inventory space and thus tedious inventory managementjeetPT post
>>729632908I’m not proposing a mafia or grief loop. The idea is meaningful stakes and circulation, not monopolies or harassment. Durability, resource scarcity, and player trade give value to items and professions without turning the game into predatory chaos.Think of durability and player-driven trade like EVE or Albion: Items circulate, losses matter, and markets exist -- but nobody suggests every player is forced into constant mafia-style extortion. The goal is engagement, not misery.
>>729634047>i'm not proposing a mafia or grief loop>proposes a system that is hilariously exploitable by mafias and griefers????????????
>>729634047bot post
>>729633832>how is any sort of progression in WoW relevant when you can buy an account with the best gear from a chinese bot farm for two cents. or how anything before endgame is relevant either.well?
>>729633894low iq monkey sees wow when someone describes anything but wow. see >>729631418it sums up this entire thread
>>729613306kill yourself
>how do we increase player engagement?>no leveling so players skip to endgame immediately>bombard people with full-complexity MMO classes immediately without any form of progression and expect them to understand them instantly>full gear trading so players can skip to endgame immediately by buying gear>endgame is a skill check rather than a stat check so players immediately get filtered because they didn't spend a dozen hours learning their class naturally through progressionthe jeet that saved MMOs... i FUARKING kneel...
>>729613946leveling is the only good part of wow you insipid nigger
>>729634091he's doing his best anon. he's never had to develop his ideas before
>>729634146>i can only think about wow, wow is literally living in my head rent free, i see wow everywhere and it consumes my thoughts, i fucking HATE wow but i also literally can't go two words without comparing my dream game to wow (it's literally just wow)>>729634201>but everyone else sees wow and i'm the only normal one, you're all crazy wow addicts or something????????????????????
>oh shit i'm cornered, better deflect>oh shit deflecting isn't working, better stop replying>repeat ad infinitum for literal yearswe would really be better off as a species if we just collectively rounded up every single indian and exterminated them.
>>729633832have full loot pvp but also tier 1 gear is easy enough to get you can get a few tier 1 sets in like an hour of playing. tier 2/3 gear is only slightly better than 1 but is a little harder to get. have it so the game is more skill based than being about stat checks, like a good player in tier 1 can kill a tier 2 easily if they are clearly better.Now players are constantly losing gear, and gear is constantly degrading too. So players are farming gear to have backups to pvp with and also on the lookout for extra rare tier 3 gear with niche suffixes like 10% cooldown reduction or and extra 2% dodge chance or whatever.
>>729634536if you gear doesn't even matter because you can get endgame gear within an hour of starting the game, and the game is skill-based instead of having any kind of gear checks, you're not describing an MMO, you're describing a lobby-based co-op game.
>>729634361>>i can only think about wow, wow is literally living in my head rent free, i see wow everywhere and it consumes my thoughts,well at least you are being honest!How about you answer the question though little buddy. how is progression in wow relevant if you can just buy accounts with already geared characters?
>>729634628your mistake is thinking that an MMO is inherently a stat check based theme park game with "raids" that have increasingly progressive harder stat checks. basically you are another victim of >>729631418
>>729634693i'm not the one proposing that we integrate account buying into the game itself and that it will somehow save MMOs in the processthis one's on you to explain, brownie
Dofus
>>729634729>describe a theme park game>WTF WHY ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT'S WHAT MY GAME IS? DON'T YOU KNOW MY GAME ISN'T THAT BECAUSE... UHHHH... BECAUSE I SAID SO???????????????
>>729633852>The obvious way to remove leveling is to have only equipment, and to support high level equipment repairGreat. Doesn't say anything about>You're making more zones relevant when you replace levelingYou will always have a meta. 99% of the zones won't be relevant.
>>729632931>IncompatibleIt's not. Nobody is removing linearity (ilvl = good for clears). You just have to keep up durability with materials (this is the standard for being a sandbox).>>729632975No.>>729633028That post reads just fine. Problem?>>729633049Not an argument.
>>729634801my point is that the fact you can buy some stuff doesnt negate all progression in a game. its just a brain dead strawman argument on your part and it doesnt deserve a respectful reply so im just shooting it back at you. the fact that you seem unable to answer the question is funny i guess, i mean i wouldnt expect you to be able to answer anything intelligently or have anything worthwhile to say anyways.
>>729634862>>describe a theme park gamewhich part screamed "theme park" to you? be specific
>>729634912>my point is that the fact you can buy some stuff doesnt negate all progression in a gameit does thoughthere is no reason for 99% of the game to exist because people will never engage with it since they can just buy stronger gearthis is exactly the thing you complain about in the OP of every one of your retarded faggot threads but now it suddenly doesn't matter when you're backed into a cornerfunny how that works
>>729633089You can already do that with carries.
>>729634950>erm yeah okay my MMO has multiplayer instanced dungeons and quests and endgame PVE gear progression and it's also vertical progression where the stats increase as you go up the tiers and the content is increasingly harder and there is no reason to do other content because "gear with 1% frost resistance bonus" is objectively worse than "gear with 15% more stats and 1% frost resistance bonus">but it's NOT a themepark okay??? i said it's not one, so it's NOT one!????????????????
>>729634996they arent my threads you stupid nigger. dont get me confused with OP and go back to r*ddit if you dont know how to have a convo with anonymous people on 4chan, newfag retard
I feel like I'm the only real MMO player on /v/ sometimes.
>>729635087and wow is dead because nothing matters because all progression is skippablei thought this was about making a new form of MMO, not just repeating wow's mistakes? why is it now suddenly "it's okay because wow did it"
>>729635113i never said anything about instanced dungeons you schizo baboon, take your meds
>>729635116>i'm not the retarded faggot jeet OP who makes these retarded threads every single day, i just happen to agree with all of his nonexistent points and his nebulous and ever-changing ideas that are never described in any kind of depthyeah okay bro
>>729633319Aren't most MMOs grinding and questing to reach max level? You're being disingenuous.
>>729635158WoWfags are often delusionalthey want it to be different but they want to it to be WoWjust look at those asking for "Classic+"they want old-school, classic WoW! BUT DIFFERENT!
>>729635201if you haven't noticed by now, this entire thread only exists for OP to be disingenuous and ragebait people.
>>729635284>
>>729635182you don't even deserve the question marks for this one
>>729625161Some game studio could have made an fps mmorpg that has a multiplayer pvp (like cod), may be even a battle royale mode (like warzone/fortnite). could have covered all the bases. would probably need 3 dev teams, but a massive studio that absorbed multiple could have gotten it done. i don't think a fantasy mmorpg would be viable. unless they made the multiplayer like overwatch and made it function differently than the mmorpg portion.
>>729635196i dont agree with OP i think he is retarded for wanting to take levels out of mmos>>729635201>You're being disingenuous.so im being disingenuous for pointing out that it is a MMO thread and not specifically a wow thread?I dont consider >>729631115 to be a post worthy of a serious reply because it is too low IQ. it is a low IQ post because the monkey who made it did not explain why he thinks the green text is relevant to his question, so its a stupid question, a loaded question, and a generalized question that could be answered in like a dozen different ways and its not my job to parse out how the monkey wants it to be answered.
>>729635345look you probably saw someone mention something about instances but it wasnt me. You are just confused because you normally browse r*ddit or something. just go back.
>>729632018i suggest some lsd or other drugs ;)
>>729633894Do you not understand the differences between a themepark and a sandbox? Again, just make repairs cost materials.>>729634016You can disenchant everything you buy. It's literally a sandbox. It speaks for itself.>>729634091Calling something “inevitably exploitable” isn’t an argument when there are long-running MMOs where these systems already exist without collapsing into mafia-only gameplay. EVE and Albion both have full gear trading, loss, and durability, and they function because monopolies are checked by destruction, logistics, and competition -- not by bind-on rules.
>>729635632>game sucks on a fundamental level? just slap item durability (notably beloved mechanic by gamers worldwide) on there and it's all good!???????????????
>>729635632>em dash/!\ WARNING /!\/!\ YOU ARE ENGAGING WITH JEET-GENERATED CONTENT /!\ /!\ CAUTION IS ADVISED /!\
>get confused by basic concept>make up situation in your head about how it wouldnt work out>spam question marksjust leave and come back when you are 18
>get confused about basic concept>get told you're a retard and that it wouldn't work>make up situations in your head about how it would actually work out though>spam buzzwords like "durability" "repairs" and "full gear trading" without any understanding of what they mean????????????
>>729634253You’re arguing against a caricature. Nobody is saying “throw players into endgame with no structure”. The argument is to replace XP-based stat gating with sandbox progression: consumable gear, professions, risk, and repeatable gameplay loops. Games have taught complex systems without leveling for decades -- pretending XP is the only teaching tool is ahistorical.
>>729635797he's already revealed he's the same lunatic who's been making mmo threads and using AI to argue in them
>>729635692thinking that durability is inherently bad is a tell that you dont understand game design. In fact it shows such a bad understanding of game design that i now suspect this is some sort of data collection thread made by blizzard in order to brainstorm ideas.
A Repair Durability of my Full Gear Trading just flew over my house!
>>729635840Durability is a shit fucking game design kill yourself jeet
>>729635797>>make up situations in your head about how it would actually work out thoughi mean yeah thats how actual high level creativity works though, you use analytical thinking to make up how complex ideas would work with various other systems in order to be a functional system.The opposite of creativity is basically just assuming an idea wont work because you never thought of it before, you shut down your own thinking to new ideas and explain how it wouldnt work because you cant think of how it wouldnt work.
>>729635987there are a lot of fun things you can do with durability.
>>729635840name one (1, uno, ein, singular) good, popular, and well-received game with item durability, where durability actually added to the game and wasn't just a cheap way to add padding to a game with no substancei'll wait
>>729636006>i explain my ideas to others>i get told they're fundamentally flawed and that literally nothing i've said has any value whatsoever>this makes me a high-level creative????????
>>729636056like?
>>729634253>i FUARKING kneelOK.
Durability is always kind of weird because it's either completely pointless and never factors into your gameplay or it's overly punishing and shit just breaks constantly. There's plenty of examples of pre-WoW MMOs not even bothering with durability like FFXI or EverQuest even.
>>729634285Not a counter. You can have everything leveling provides (what, quests and grinding mobs?) with gear.
>>729634628Those are extremities that don't make sense in the context of designing sandbox servers for WoW. Is that what you want to discuss?
>>729636258it's just an objectively terrible mechanic. not once in the entire history of video games has it been executed in a way that makes the game more fun. it only serves to sate "muh reelism" fags and to artificially extend playtime.
>>729636058>name one (1, uno, ein, singular) good, popular, and well-received game with item durability, where durability actually added to the game and wasn't just a cheap way to add padding to a game with no substancei'll waitdiablo 2, durability allowed for ethereal weapons which added to the games itemization, which is still seen as some of the best itemization in isometric arpgs today.>>729636134>like?>items that cant be repaired but are inherently stronger, like ethereal items in D2, or crystal items in dark souls 1>allows for more affixes like repairing over time, or indestructible, so more niche chase affixes>allows special effects to happen on uniques with durability loss, like every 10th durability lost on a weapon your next attack does lightning nova dealing 1000% increased weapon damage, or every 10th durability on an armor you get a shield, or maybe something big happens when an item breaks (dark souls 2 had stuff like this)>allows for rogue like type item rationing in some games so players have to make interesting decisions>allows for spells that affect durability so you can do stuff like disintegrate enemy weapons or armor>provides for a horizontal progression for crafting, like higher level crafter can make items that have better durabilityyour welcome for the ideas, nigger
>>729636475proven objectively wrong in the next post.
