>Maybe .1%-1% of people that have subbed to WoW are subbed.How do we fix the MMORPG genre?
Like 30% of WoW trial players make it to lvl 10. Like 50% of 10s make it to 25. That's maybe 15% of players making it to lvl 25. Something's obviously wrong. I would say, at that end, it's leveling.However, I don't think max level retention is very good either. I know I got tired of BGs on 1 class (the average max lvls per account is approximately 1) and got tired of not being able to find a group for M+. At that end, the problem is linear ilvl pushing.For both of these, the problem is a lack of meaningful things to do. People don't want to grind and quest for however many hours, and they don't want to linearly push ilvl. Both of these would be fixed by replacing leveling with just ilvl and by adding material requirements to repairs (the standard for "a sandbox"). That way, if people get lucky/rich enough, they can skip content and play whatever they want; and at all levels, all items are important. People can mine copper, smelt ore, gather herbs in the mountains. Economy is maybe more important than gameplay.WoW has max level class fantasy/gameplay that's good enough (more varied:deep than MOBAs: ability count, and trinity) to be an esport if Blizzard took it that direction. It's not *that* fun to PvE, but PvP is really good. It proves tab target and trinity.
>faggot OP switches the order of his deranged shit takes on the genre, thinks that masks that it's the same retard>has no data across other MMOs on initial retention>has no data across different genres on initial retention>makes wildly retarded extrapolations based on thatkill yourself you deranged brown retard.
>>729825819WoW killed the MMO genre by removing everything that made the genre unique.
>>729826060I love you, anon.What games do you think are as worth fixing as WoW?How are SWG's graphics?
>>729825819>>729825915>Implying it needs fixingWoW has over 9 million active subsGW2 has about 2 millionESO around 1 FFXIV sub 900k
>>729826112What do you mean? Leveling is questing and grinding mobs. What are you supposed to like about it? I want to like Classic through Lich King (I think MOP stands on its own because of class gameplay), but leveling is a hard filter that apparently no one wants to do. Only 10% of Classic characters made it to max.>>729826370There's no way WoW has 9M active subs. How much of "come play with 9M people" is probably trial accounts?
we wait for Riot to deliver kino
>>729826628HAHAHAHA
>>729826545>What do you mean?WoW was a casualization of the MMO genre. The world is almost entirely static. I'll never forget the moment I realized you couldn't even drop items on the ground and thinking "oh, this is a babies MMO". Nevermind PvP, meaningful player factions, player housing, etc.It may as well not even be an MMORPG. It may as well just be like Monster Hunter or whatever.
MMOs need to radically change and drop level grind altogether. Guild Wars two was on the right track to put the focus on cosmetic item grind mostly. MMOs should focus on anything but grind, preferably coop missions and an ocean of play styles. Only neets and streamers will object to it, because their only skill is time.
>>729826370>>729826545>9 million active subsHere is a the weekly split of completed M+ runs in TWW S3. If everybody only did 1 M+, that's 4M accounts. It's likely the average is more. IcyVeins seems to think it represents 3M subs.https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/what-if-wow-quietly-revealed-a-9-million-subscriber-number/.
What's wrong with the genre?
>>729828753Nothing is “wrong” in the sense that MMOs don’t work -- they clearly do. The problem is that they hemorrhage players. When only a small fraction of everyone who ever subscribed is still playing, it suggests that leveling gates, vertical stat treadmills, and low-consequence worlds aren’t sustaining engagement. That doesn’t mean the genre is dead; it means its dominant design assumptions are worth re-examining.
>>729828753Single-player RPG stapled to a multiplayer game.And the worst part is, the single-player RPG is at the BEGINNING and you have to suffer through it before you can actually have fun playing with others.
These games were unique because they offered multiplayer. Now weirdly you fucking solo 90% of the time and mass together in a noncommunicative blob to raid. Socializing has moved to discord, so now you're left with a really shitty single player game with a fuck ton of grinding and shit story, and every 20 minutes a person with a name over their head like "Faceshit McNugget" runs by, passing solely to remind you how empty the experience is.
>>729825819>How do we fix the MMORPG genre?You don't. Furries, faggots, and discord ruined it.
>>729829478 This. The issue isn't that MMOs are inherently broken, it's that the core loop hasn't evolved in 20 years. Everyone copies WoW's model of "level > gear treadmill > raid logs > burnout" and then wonders why no one sticks around. There's no permanence to anything you do. PvE worlds reset weekly, PvP seasons wipe progress, and nothing you build or earn has lasting consequence. The genre needs to double down on persistent player-driven worlds, sandbox elements, and social interdependence instead of pretending they're just endless theme park treadmills. Otherwise, all we’re doing is wasting people’s time and calling it content.
>Otherwise, all we’re doing is wasting people’s timeYou're already doing that with these threads and replying to yourself over and over again
Albion Online
I like levelling in classic wow, and usually do a few dungeons at cap and quit before raid autism. Retail wow was the opposite for me when I tried it, the levelling experience is so shallow and boring it may as well not exist.... but then they wouldn't be able to sell the level boost on the cash shop... rlly makes u think....
>>729832674He's not OP, and that is a really good post. Have some care.
>>729832197I think resets are an important aspect of MMOs and player retention, player's can't just complete everything and idly sit on top of their treasure horde with nothing left to do. Resets and new content keeps the game fresh and gives players a reason to return.
>>729829478If nothing were wrong, we wouldn’t see massive funnels where most players never reach relevance and most who do eventually churn. The genre works -- it just doesn’t keep people.
>>729825819Apologize, /v/. NOW!!
>>729828753Do you mean “what’s wrong with the genre", or “why do most people who try MMOs leave and never come back?” Because those are the same question.
>>729835150If they're the same question then why do you need to know which one it is?
The MMO genre has to be redefined. Maybe make a game like Elden Ring but connected online with people everywhere, dungeons you can enter with a party, and some specific pvp battle areas/arenas. But it should be like 200-300 hour game, I don't want a game where you grind for 1000 hours.People will hate hearing this but FO76 was actually a step in the right direction for MMOs. It's basically just FO4 but connected online with other players and with none of the typical MMO trappings. It doesn't feel like a WoW clone, it's its own game. This was the last good mmo I played.
>>729835486At this point, every game should try to be the persistent world, everything for everybody (within its genre) game that's the game everybody plays. It would be easy to do. Objective quality has been solved since 1985. Design and advertise it.I wonder if it would be easy to make a tab target, trinity MMORPG as good as WoW. It has variety:depth better than MOBAs, and the top MOBAs are played for, like, 13M hours per day each.
Are MMO threads really doomed to be the posting grounds of some retard kneeling at the foot of ChatGPT and entreating it like a God for the answers to life?
>>729826725ok, how many characters did you roll to get a jedi thenalso eve online survived for a long time
>>729836529This thread has good conversation. You're free to contribute.
>>729825819you youngins dont realize how shockingly fun and graphically advanced WoW was right at release. It was amazing in multiple different ways raising the bar all over the place. It wasn't as complicated or nuanced as something like star wars galaxies or EQ but it was polished as fuck compared to those games and so so so much smoother of an experience. The cities were amazing and blew everything else away from that time period. No one perfects anything this grand in scale anymore. You'd need Night City from CP77 but an entire planet of that. Whatever it is has to raise the bar high again like WoW did. The chinese or japanese might surprise us.
>>729836726lmao every MMO thread is 90% one dude replying to himself with chatGPT posts and the other 10% are retards trying to engage with him.
>>729835441If we don’t clarify the question, the conversation just turns into “MMOs are fine. I like them”. I’m trying to talk about why they don’t keep players long-term.“What’s wrong with the genre” sounds like a value judgment, while “why most players leave and don’t return” describes a measurable outcome. I’m not saying MMOs are completely bad -- I’m saying their dominant design patterns don’t retain players.
I think MMOs can potentially be or already has been made obsolete by Dark Souls multiplayer, there every player has their own singleplayer game with the ability to invite or be invaded by other players for multiplayer sessions while also seeing the "ghosts" of other players roaming the world. Games like Where Winds Meet have already incorporated this style of multiplayer while pushing it even further with 10 player raids, extraction modes and battlegrounds. It's smaller scale multiplayer allowing for more refined, singleplayer-quatily gameplay while also feeling like a big shared experience. MMOs don't really offer anything special compared to these smaller multiplayer games.
MMOs have the unique ability to put lots of players into a big world space but the issue is people are more asocial and efficiency oriented than they've ever been before.
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>729837235Dark Souls-style asynchronous / session-based multiplayer absolutely solves some problems MMOs have -- especially moment-to-moment combat quality and onboarding. But it doesn’t replace what MMOs are uniquely good at, which is persistent, player-driven worlds.Those games still rely on:•Instanced sessions•Disposable characters or short arcs•Worlds that don’t meaningfully change because of player activity•Economies that are shallow or nonexistentSeeing ghosts or being invaded is a social veneer, not a social system. You’re adjacent to other players, not interdependent with them.What MMOs offer -- at least in theory -- is:•A persistent economy where items, materials, and labor matter long-term•Identity continuity (your character means something over months or years)•Specialization and roles that create dependency (crafters, gatherers, PvPers, organizers)•Emergent conflict over resources, not just curated encountersThe problem isn’t that MMOs can’t offer something unique -- it’s that modern themepark MMOs have stripped away most of the systems that make persistence and interdependence matter. When progression resets, gear never leaves the economy, and the world has no consequences, MMOs do start to feel obsolete compared to tighter multiplayer games.So I agree with the diagnosis, but not the conclusion: MMOs aren’t obsolete -- they’re just failing to use the one advantage smaller multiplayer games can’t replicate.
What's so difficult about making a MMO? I'm getting into gamedeving and everyone keeps telling me to not make a MMO.I don't care that nobody will play it. I don't understand what's so difficult about making one.
>>729838849Alright jeetGPT, MMOs are becoming obsolete because most players value what smaller scale multiplayer games bring to the table more than what MMOs offer. MMOs come with lots of drawbacks like simplistic combat systems to reduce server load, grindy progression systems and time-gating to artificially increase the playtime, large scale pvp and raid encounters that often end up feeling like a zerg without much strategy. People want tighter gameplay, a world that is affected by their actions and not the collective effort of thousands of players, pvp and pve content designed around smaller groups where each player has a greater impact on the outcome.Players don't want to grind for some pointless economy machine, they want to have epic adventures with their friends and strangers, non-MMOs are much better at this.
>>729839650Maintaining a server-client relationship? Having a backend that stores all information in a database, while handling thousands of interactions? And if someone bugs out it ruins the experience for thousands of players, not just one?
>>729839650It's really just the server infra and all that shit. MMOs mechanically are pretty simple.
>>729839650A few developers could make a few characters and a zone per day and have an MMO in a month or two. People just don't do it, which is retarded. They could be making millions every year or two if they can make and advertise objective fun.
>>729839838but what makes the server stuff so complicated?
>>729839902Game design is not all that easy too. Especially as most MMOs are based on tab-target combat for the purpose of making ping/lag/server functions easier to manage. Every system, quest, skill, enemy, still requires someone to think up their design. And you often need store, lore, world, etc. to have a reason for them being that way, to make them make sense. Which again requires someone to put in effort.
>>729840032For FPS, the sends are position, direction, and action. I imagine MMOs are similar, but you have to log buffs and everything.
>>729826545Not that anon but WoW caught my attention back in the day because of the faction war between horde and alliance. It really drove me in k owing that the world was dangerous and I could come in contact with enemy players so I should watch outWoW now just looks like pussyworld and not in a good way
You fix MMOs by making them persistent open-world full-loot PvP games.
>>729840032It's not complicated if you learn it, the issue is more about scalability and maintaining this huge network of client/server interactions all on your lonesome. You're gonna spend massive amounts of time and you might get lost along the way meaning it would all be a colossal waste of time.
>>729839754>simplistic combat systems to reduce server loadThis isn't a given as complexity, especially the kind that keeps entertaining you for thousands of hours, mostly stems from interaction with other humans in an environment of limited situational awareness. Examples of such are Eve-online and Foxhole. I bet you have not played either.
>>729825819There is no fixing MMOs, as a genre the entire core appeal these games had was nothing but novelty. In the early 2000s the MMO provided a novel experience in that you could meaningfully interact with hundred to thousands of other people remotely in real time. The entire reason these games have all devolved into lobby simulators is that the social aspect they used to be build around just eventually had zero novelty.
>>729837086Players don't return because games change. Wow as an example changes lead, class, raid devs and writers every other expansion if not every expansion. Each time it's basically a new game with loosely connected setting and content and cosmetics backward compatibility
I think we might get a second resurgence of MMOs in a year or two once people start getting burnt on the AI craze and how chaotic modern social media is, people will want a more structured social environment.
>>729840685This type of complexity isn't really desired, most players want something that is fun on a moment-to-moment basis with engaging combat mechanics that are just as fun to do on your own as in a group. Not be a boring autoattack bot in a horde of autoattack bots, players want to be a hero, not a lone RTS unit playing a small part in a greater game.
>>729840685Dofus uses a turn-based combat system to reduce server load. While still maintaining a level of complexity unseen in other MMOs.
>>729825819>He didn't get to experience the golden age of FFXII am so fucking sorry for you.
>>729841176Why? It was really boring and grindy, and the pvp sucked ass.
>>729839754>most players value what smaller scale multiplayer games bring to the table more than what MMOs offerYou can't really tell that because sandbox MMOs are so rare, but I guess OSRS proves you wrong with 250k concurrent. That's not huge: I would want 500k-1M, but RS and temporary hits like New World prove that people want a MMO, not to mention top MMOs like XIV and WoW.Economy is everything. What is the point of an open world? Risk:reward. People want to earn their items and trade them for others'. That's mining, smelting, wood chopping and refining, ammo making, herb gathering, potion making ... All roleplay is economic, so economy is the solution for the RPG. You have to at least make repairs cost materials, or items never leave the economy and it's not a sandbox. At me.
>>729841020The combat is almost the same across expansions.
>>729840879>The entire reason these games have all devolved into lobby simulators is that the social aspect they used to be build around just eventually had zero novelty.What you mean is that social aspects were edited out for the likes of dungeon finder, LFR, and much lower (if at all) economic relevance, not to mention starting big brother moderation.
>>729841709Plus phasing*, which is nonsense garbage.
>>729841425OSRS is barely even an MMO, the vast majority of content is singleplayer grinding you can do on your phone. It proves that there is a demand for mindless incremental phone games that people can play on the toilet.
I honestly wouldn't mind Korean MMOs if they just stuck to cosmetic MTX but no, they have to design the game with p2w elements.
>>729841573It's tab target, no shit it's the same. There are seven gorillion games with tab target and they all play similarly..
>>729841806Where Winds Meet is entirely cosmetic. Not a full MMORPG, but it has multiplayer stuff.
>>729825819last mmo I got past level 15 in. WOW ruined the genre
>>729842371WoW players ruined the genre*
>>729842307WWW is chinese
>>729841046Most people are retarded.>>729841120I agree. Server limitations can be worked around by creative game design.
>>729842394They're honorary Koreans
>>729842186WoW sets up CD timers (for PvP) really well.
>>729842307I heard that was good and there's that anime warframe game that apparently is only cosmetic MTX, I just don't know if I'm a big fan of action-combat style games for MMOs. The only one that felt good was PSO2 (OG).
>>729841806Bugman games mostly target bugmen (who love P2W).
>>729825819>How do we fix the MMORPG genre?They need to innovate instead of regressing but that will never happen
>>729842647Yep, and I fucking hate it.
>>729842742Dofus did it.Wakfu did it even more but it went too far.
>>729842485Korean MMO devs are assholes and love their rugpulls, retarded nonsense balance/content changes along with infinite powercreep and complete overhauls of their games until they are no longer recognizable. I don't know about chinese mmos though since I never played any, maybe all of them are asshole do-nothing-but-fuck-things-up devs.
>>729825819make the mmos social again. devs are terrified of people talking together like they're going to start the fourth reich or something. so many games would be enhanced with just voip like chivalry 2 or guild wars but they just wont do it.they need to look at games like gary's mod, dayz, or gta rp and see what makes people tick to communicate and design systems that get people to work and communicate together.then if they appeal to player bases like roleplayers and pvpers you can make virtually infinite amounts of content by simply giving them the tools to interact with one another.plenty of mmos have a piece to the puzzle.albions system of a player driven worldfoxholes cultureosrs questingin the next 5 years, the only mmo i think that has any hope is guild wars 3.
>>729842776Dofus is turnslop, nobody wants a turnslop MMO. You can stop talking about it now.
>>729842881>turnslopWhat?
>>729826545>Leveling is grinding mobs and grinding mobs.FTFYIt wouldn't solve everything, but a good first step would be to make quests more involved than killing a bunch of punching bags on a health timer.
the game's problem is that it plays like an ARPG but worse, and>there's no need to ever party with anyone outside of dungeons>the majority of content isn't worth doing and provides no meaningful reward>the majority of items provide linear stat increases and nothing else>you're paying a subscription fee for a game that gets new content twice a year at bestthe game can be fun for a while but it has none of the staying power it used to, there's no reason to keep playing after you've seen the newest content and gotten all the cosmetics you care about (as those are the only long-term rewards the game has)i'd say this year is pretty make or break for the classic scene, too, if they don't provide something newnobody is going to play WoD classic and just rereleasing TBC and then Wrath again will only catch so many people
>>729842903Don't play dumb, you know exactly what it means
>>729842880Authoritarian chat moderation is a huge factor in this yeah, there's no bite to talking to people anymore. You can tell people are holding back their chatting behavior or just not chatting at all. I'm not saying it needs to be the wild west where you can call people nigger or whatever but the fact that calling someone a stupid asshole for being a stupid asshole is punishable is just retarded.
>>729842951>there's no need to ever party with anyone outside of dungeonsQuests that require multiple people to complete? Content that requires multiple people to complete? >Majority of content isn't worth doingFixable.>Provide linear stat increasesFixable, make secondary stats matter.>Content twice a year at bestThat's not even a significant problem except for veterans who have burnt themselves out. If a good MMO did that for 10 years, then it's just more reason for new players to play, as there's so much content to do before they get sick of it.
>>729825819MMOs are just something you naturally age out of as you grow up.
>>729843108>Quests that require multiple people to complete? Content that requires multiple people to complete? there's nothing like that in retail, they removed all the difficulty from questing and they more or less removed group quests (and they made all the named mobs shared tag so you don't need to party anyway)>then it's just more reason for new players to play, as there's so much content to do before they get sick of it.I guess you haven't played WoW in a while? the only content worth doing is the newest stuff because the only rewards are cosmetics and linear stat increase gear, of which you get the best from the newest content, and there's nothing keeping you from doing the newest content right away. the game even encourages you to go straight to it as soon as you're able.effectively, unless you are a cosmetic collector, there's really only the latest patch that's actually worth playing at any given time and everything else is a roadblock to that, very few of which (basically just your character's level) actually prevents you from doing it.
Have you tried not making them shit?
>>729843043yeah eso's AI tool reading your chatlog, even whispers, is a draconian measure for exmple.
>>729843381>retailretail what?>WoWwasn't talking about WoW you faggot
>>729843418And it's only going to get worse.
Every stupid ass game design everyone is suggesting, as well as every problem they complain about, has been implemented or solved in another MMO that you've not bothered to play.If you didn't play DDO I don't want to hear your worthless opinion on boring endgame content farming.If you didn't play ArcheAge I don't want to hear your worthless opinion on open world PvP design.If you didn't play Secret World I don't want to hear about MMO stories being bad.You didn't play ESO so you don't get to complain about non-immersive/unimportant world content.Didn't play ToS, RO, or DDO so you can't complain about lack of build diversity.Didn't play PSO2 or Vindictus so you don't get to comment on actual gameplay.You don't play modern WoW so you don't get to complain about MMO Instanced PvE design.At the end of the day the only real complaint anyone has is that you can't be assed to play anything that isn't called World of Warcraft Classic, Final Fantasy XIV, or maybe OSRS or Guild Wars 2 if you're particularly adventurous.You're all Call of Duty ass basic.
>>729843818I have like 250 hours in DDO and the game is really fun but I never got anywhere close to endgame. This is like off and on over a decade. I wish there were more MMOs structured like it.
>>729843818Pray tell why most of the games you just listed are dead. Why we can't get an MMORPG that doesn't die because it's only good at one or two things?
>>729844285NTA but those games die because they were good. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make creative, fulfilling, interesting content at an "acceptable" rate to maintain subscribers. It is the inherit flaw with all MMOs. They only way to make a proper MMO in modern times would be to copy the mechanics, depth, and gameplay of other "dead" but successful games and bankroll it with the pure intent of never turning a profit.
i need mmo memes
>>729844512The korean MMOs he listed died because of greed and incompetence.
>>729844804and lack of hot npcs to interest whales
>>729844285Literally none of those games are dead. You can in fact go play any one of them at this exact moment.The ones that aren't still being actively developed all had over a decade of active development.Sorry you missed out.I *genuinely* hope it was because you were too busy enjoying World of Warcraft at the time and not just because you were too apathetic about MMOs to actually play them, like everyone else that moans about MMOs being dead.
>>729845039>Archeage>Not deadThis is the biggest cope I've read all day >randomly brings up world of warcraft?
hear that guys? pay to win gookslop games like tree of savior are NOT dead! it's totally alive and thriving and bustling with players lmao what a fucking loser
>>729845085My bad, archeage is dead, the rest aren't.It still lasted 11 years. You could have played it.It had the best open world PvP systems of pretty much any MMO. If you didn't play it, you're kind of just fucked in the whole "MMO PvP sucks" argument.Narrow horizons and all that.
Archeage 2 will have a full release before Ashes of Creation btw.
>>729845365We're in 2026, anon.
>>729845413So? The games were good 13-20 years ago. Maybe they're not good now, and probably won't even be good in the next 10 years, but that doesn't mean the genre is bad right now. Does that make sense?
>>729845413Okay? So go give me your report on Throne and Liberty, or the newest WoW, XIV, or GW2 expansions.You play MMOs right? You don't just complain about them on /v/? I'd hate to think you have opinions on something you've not been invested in since 2016.
>>729845385ashes is a hilarious lolcow of a game
>>729840032I think just handling the database and making sure it stays in sync and doesn't crash if there's like 30 people in an area.
>>729842391What do you want them to do? Fun is a game design problem. WoW doesn't have a living world. There's no economy.
>>729845626You're doing everything you can to avoid explaining why you believe the genre is in a good state right now.
>>729825819Anyone looking forward to the Pokemon MMO and both Riot MMOs?
>>729845626NTA but why would you be invested in something you hate? All those games have turned into slop, T&L was slop right out of the gate. The genre is spinning its wheels, it needs new games that defies conventions and adds something new for me to care.
>>729845784>you're avoiding this thing completely unrelated to what you were talking aboutI mean I wasn't. I was mostly just pointing out that even if MMOs were in a good space at the moment you guys literally would not know, because you don't actually play MMOs.I don't think it is if that's what you were asking.
>>729846095>you guys literally would not know, because <a bunch of stuff I made up in my head as an excuse to be angry for no reason at all>What causes this behavior?
>>729842742The only thing they need to do is have good PvP/gameplay. New World was passable, but I'm not sure it has the same quality/reward that WoW has.
I miss SWG CU bros
>>729846179>The only thing they need to do is have good PvP/gameplay.For a small following*, I guess. I want to gather, craft, and trade, and that's the deciding factor for a living world if you include material repairs.
>>729846136I'm positively livid that 90% of MMO discussion are 35 year olds bemoaning that Classic+ isn't out yet, but aren't playing SoD because it doesn't count.I am truly fuming.
>>729846331You know I think I actually agree with you. I've never played wow myself besides the time I did a trial version or something in like 2015, can't remember. It just never appealed to me. But I did notice that specifically in the MMOs I really liked a lot, that a lot of the people who would come over like a bunch of locusts and bitch about the game until the devs relent and reshape it into what they want are almost always wow/xiv players who just want every other MMO to be not-wow/xiv. Then when it turns into a shittier version of that they say "wow this fucking sucks" then they go back to the game they never planned on quitting forever in the first place. So I guess I can understand your attitude.
the winners of 2025 mmorpgs is who has best siphoned off new worlds imminent death announcement which seems to be WoW for paid and GW2 for unpaid subs.
Might give LOTRO another go, I really do like it but I always seem to lose steam around the Trollshaws.
>>729846331it's because WoW players ruin MMO discussions because they think WoW=MMOs. They cannot conceive of anything their ideal version of WoW doesn't or didn't do.
>Most popular mmo of all time is just about killing shit so you can make numbers bigger so you can kill more stuff to make your numbers biggerwhy not just play an arpg?
>>729831321This. JahrEvery minute of sp wow is pure, grindy boredom and you will sp for days. As in literal hours worth. And after that you find yourself in groups where no one ever talks or interacts and if people do you wish they didnt.Wow is outright working for weeks so you can have one of the most shallow and shit multiplayer experiences possible. Cherry on top is it being drenched with corporate slop current thing politics and Blizzard, worse enough on its own, being Jeetsoft now.
>>729846705people like grinding then swinging their dicks in front of others. to witness someone else swinging their huge dick and wanting to do that too, it's that simple.
>>729846331SoD wasn't classic plus, it's retail minus. Also that cryptic rune shit was ass and incursions ruined leveling. It was nothing more than a testbed for classic+.
>>729835486>Fallout
>>729825819Wiki min/max fags have ruined mmos for everyone. The blind sense of adventure and just doing what content you enjoy rather than what's most exp efficient will never come back. That and microtransaction fomo bullshit ended the golden age of mmos.
>>729825819You could fix WoW so fucking quickly, just by removing subscription.
>>729847469That's only true for WoW, it's a 21 year old solved game where players have created their own addon ecosystem with integrated guides and logging systems to rank players based on their performance. It's not something you'll find in a new game.
>>729847887>It's not something you'll find in a new game.lmaoroflI have never seen an MMO that has released in the last 10 years that didn't have a wiki being populated by day fucking 5 of release.
>>729848215Maybe if you played one of these new games you'd realize that what you're complaining about is a non-issue. There's a big difference between a fresh wiki and third-party software developed to rank your performance based on optimal play or a questing addon that literally tells you the optimal route to get to max level quickly. The game needs to have existed for a long time before any of this starts to become an issue, it's your fault for not playing the games before they get to that point.
>>729840453Full loot is where we need to be.
>>729826795Why are there always one or two faggots insisting on this. No RPGs are not dropping levels and grinding, retard. Go play something else since you clearly don't want an rpg. And yes that means gw2 since it attracts people like this bitching and moaning about basic rpg shit. You want to revive the genre? Unapologetically kick these fucking people out and add more rpg events more loot based power and less mobs 'skill expression'. Lean into the genre and dontdi the Square Enix thing where they are embarrassed about the mechanics that made them popular in the first place.
>>729841806mfw this is what Maplestory has been for more than 10 years
>>729848768Spending a ridiculous amount of time doing mundane shit to level up isn't neither enjoyable nor required for something to be considered a good RPG. It's merely a tool to pad out playtime, a nonexistent pot of gold at the end of an infinite grind might satisfy some retards but luckily more and more people are waking up to the fact that they're being manipulated. Developers can no longer expect to save costs by forcing their players to replay the same shit indefinitely, players will just jump to something else instead.
>>729846705It's funny that many people think WoW has been developed to be more like Diablo.I think the important lesson is that linear ilvl gameplay isn't fun.
>>729849931Yea, you know what's actually fun? Running around the map mining rocks and picking flowers then selling them on in the auction house. Ahhhh I love video games.
>>729848952Maplestory was always p2w cringe though
>>729850287All that is a crafting loop. You can PvE if you want to?How do we make PvP lucrative?
>>729851058But if we make pve/pvp lucrative then crafting would be redundant, players need to spend money doing the fun stuff and make money by doing the boring stuff. That's how sandbox games work.
>>729827682The Titanforged Classic servers in China are massively successful, as was WotLK Classic in China, and those game modes don't have M+. Just looking at M+ numbers to try and accurately estimate WoW's current player population isn't going to work.
>>729826545Counting all the boomers who cant let go and all the chinks and third worlders, 9M isnt a crazy number at all. The thing is still a gold mine.
nobody wants to pay sub fees you either have to have a VERY good game or make it buy to play.i play runescape cause i genuinely like it. people like me are what keep mmos running. but i wont lie i wish i funded my membership purely thru bunds but at the end of the day im saving time. having to slave away for bonds in game prob just ruins the experience desu
>>729825819From what I've gathered from your posts you want a>sandbox game without leveling>items that break on use so people have a reason to grind mats>a choice to only partake in the activities you want to do like pvp or raiding>completely horizontal progression where all items are at the same power level>all gear comes from craftingNone of these things work together, you can't only do PvE/PvP, you're forced to grind materials or purchase them with money that you have to grind for.No leveling and horizontal progression means there is no way to dump money other than breaking items by using them, otherwise there will be infinite inflation. That doesn't sound fun at all. Prices will tank, materials become abundant, no reason to craft or make money, whole game becomes pvp/pve without rewards. Why even bother with the sandbox shit in the first place if this is what you want?
>>729825819It's 20+ years old, even if everyone who ever subbed had the same interest level, most wouldn't have the time to play.
>>729851929>completely horizontal progression where all items are at the same power levelI actually really want a range of stats, maybe 3x.People should be able to WPvE any time they want to get gear/sets. If they get lucky, they can, e.g., sell it and buy their favorite playstyles, maybe speed or AOE.A balanced economy is easy. Let inventory space push people into sales and crafting.
>>729852995>let inventory space push people into sales and craftingThat doesn't make any sense, did your chatGPT break down?
>>729852995PS: I would make most of / the lucrative PvE respawn in random areas so people can't camp.>>729853105What do you mean?
>>729828753A genre where 99% of players churn isn’t “fine”; it’s unsolved.
>>729830898>>729831321So, you don'time leveling or what raiding has become? What's the fix? People would be more communicative if they were more happy.>>729831764Community is a game design problem, bar none. Don't even ban people for words; just make good filters.
