>>729908950
Well duh, that's just the tutorial
the actual gray morality comes later when you choose to side with either the liberal democracy or the fascist dictatorship

>>729908950
but my heckin' OC was a powder gangster before xe got killed so it makes sense xe would side with xem

>>729909398
Now you're roleplaying! Seemingly shallow scenarios are always solved with IMAGINATION!!!

>>729908950
fallout was always mostly about presenting you with a correct moral choice and just a contrarian, evil? one. The junktown conflict with gizmo in Fo1 for instance.

Fallout New Vegas allows you to be evil within the campaign, which 3 never does beyond a few choices that don't affect the overall plot, such as nuking Megaton.

>>729908950
In Fallout 3 you'd be forced to help the town 4 did it even worse because they somehow made a shittier main questline than 3's.
In New Vegas you're free to walk out of that backwater shithole as soon as you leave the house.

>>729911254
They originally wanted that choice to not be so obvious.
If you helped Gizmo, the greedy casino owner, the town was supposed to flourish and people living there would be safe and enjoying tons of luxuries, but if Killian, the seemingly nice merchant, got his way, Junktown would remain stagnant and Killian would rule it with iron fist, killing all dissidents.
Of course, they pussied out at pretty much the last second, but the idea was there.

>>729909095
>liberal democracy or the fascist dictatorship
these are the same thing

>>729909095
I see what you did there

>heh, ill just take what people say to the logical extreme
>that'l make Bethesda and their shitty games and show look in comparison to new vegas!

just wait till you get to the "liberals vs mindless Luddite barbarians who enslave and brutally torture everyone in their path" conflict

new vagas is an extremely unique and nuanced game

brotherhood of steel were the brotherhood of pooftas in NV

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>>729912673
>"liberals

Why do you fags just constantly complain about 15 year old games? Get a fucking grip.

>>729911763
You'd only know that if you looked it up before or got to the end, making the choice itself during the game would still be the same, it's a good thing they swapped it, reminds me of Dragon Age where siding with the obviously evil and manipulative dwarf who murdered his father turns out to be the better choice because the ending slides say so and the other choice just dies

>>729912956
Ending slides have become a fucking blight on the genre. These days it seems like every hack crpg dev uses them to gotcha players first and foremost. "Haha, you thought you were making an informed decision to better the situation for these characters you liked, but you actually made it worse! There was no good decision, only different flavors of bad! How's THAT for morally gray, asshole?"

>>729912673
It's nuanced within the context of its own world. NCR tries to uphold a system that in order to function needs an infrastructure that simply no longer exists. As a result, their ideals rarely survive contact with reality, and everyone under their alleged protection is just kind of worse off, saddled with regulations the NCR can't even enforce properly, and barely protected whatsoever. They have good ideas and values at their heart, but are also absolutely fucking terrible at translating them to reality, and completely overextend in every direction, risking total collapse.

The Legion aren't just luddite barbarians, they're a fledgling entity, using a simple set of rules to carve order from barbarism with an iron fist. In a way, the Legion is the only major force that's actually solving the the rampant raider problem by crushing and absorbing the various clans. It's pretty clear that they're just a transitional phase between degenerate raider tribes, and actually orderly civilization.

There's no such thing as gray morality. Things are either good... or they aren't. And NCR is good.

>>729909398
Only until you play the DLCs, and then you're the character that the game decides you are.

>>729908950
There is a reason why most NV fans are troons op, at least you found out the truth

>>729908950
You can just kill everyone if you want

>>729913452
>, the Legion is the only major force that's actually solving the the rampant raider problem

my brother in christ the legion ARE the raider problem

>>729913516
There is no such thing as universal morality

except of course when the left is in full power then there is a universal morality which is leftism

>>729908950
Ah anon, a common trap!
You see, Obsidian, being the very intelligent developers that they are, knew that people would have 'issues' if they never played ANY video game before.

So OF COURSE the choice is to take the side of the noble and heroic townspeople. You don't want to take the wrong choice, that goes against the set path and story do you?
Now, once you save the town like a good obedient retard playing like Obsidian tells you to, make sure to follow on to the local town and help the local army free that innocent town from the mean, mean bad people! And then hey, well, the story wants you to go south and you can talk to this badass woman who tells you to do her bitch work, so go do that and well gosh, you do that, get into a bit of a pickle and come back and get sent to do more bitch work!

Remember, story is KEY in New Vegas

or go back to Fallout 3 where the game treated it like an actual open world rpg

>>729913516
>There's no such thing as gray morality.

Letting your gf go on a girls holiday to Puerto Rico instead of Jamaica

>>729913778
>>729909095
>>729912673
Every argument here is retarded reductionism into strawman. No one here has an actually legitimate criticism of this game lmao.

>>729913915
Trollan is against the rules lildawg

>>729913669
Once again, they're a transitional entity. Step one is to unify raider clans using force and a new clan identity. Step two is to normalize the orderly nature of the Legion until the raider roots are forgotten. Step three is civilization. Nut unlike what Mr. House did.
The Legion being modeled after the Roman legion isn't a coincidence, because it works the same way. Conquer, overwrite their civilization and culture with yours, make them think of themselves as Roman citizens first and foremost.

Plus, in the context of NV they're not raiders, they're an invading army. No shit they'll rampage, attack pro-NCR settlements and bases, and disrupt supply lines.

>>729913978
>heh we showed up at your community and enslaved everyone and brutally torture the rest to death then looted the place
>no, no we aren't raiders, just trust me bro you need to read hegel to understand!

sorry but you are pseud laughing stock and everyone knows your "civilization" if going to fall apart the moment Caesar dies

>>729913452
Okay, so the Legion participating in:
>covert subterfuge leading to the inevitable eradication of tribes such as the Khans just to give the NCR a bloody nose
>facilitating deep hit-and-run strikes particularly against the Courier in any sort of non-Legion affiliated runs are, with assassin squads that increasingly get more and more desperate/heavily armed as they fail time and again
>are consolidating their forces for 4 years on the other side of a dam just to have the HOPE of winning against a far more cohesive force
>willingly eliminating 1/10th of their entire battalion due to a single leaders' errors of judgement
>willfully refuse to use half of their own forces (women) since they're nothing but child-breeders instead of using their superior numbers to overwhelm the NCR and rout them
>refuse any sort of diplomacy in any manner, except with the downtrodden to favor their opinions against the NCR, or the Courier when they realize the Courier is NOT a motherfucker to be trifled with
>in a desperate last gasp in any non-Legion affiliated runs, offer a truce to the Courier in an attempt to either 1) get them alone to slaughter or 2) to sway their opinion to their side

The Legion is a band of fucked-over malcontents and slaves being brought to bear for fear that to not do so would mean their death anyway, by a malicious and small-minded moron who sees New Vegas as some bargaining chip that can feed him and his followers until their bellies are full and Caesar controls the west coast. Caesar is in over his fucking head, his Legates know it, his troops know it, and he knows it with his head full of lumps. He's trying to vie for one last grasp at immortality through fear, intimidation, and cowardly as fuck tactics just to say "I was here".

You can't get any more small-minded than that. At least the NCR are TRYING to bring order in a somewhat peaceable manner, even if they are failing in oh-so-many ways.

>>729911763
That was a good change because there was nothing in Killian's dialogue that would indicate that he'd turn Junktown into a police state.

>>729908950
Caesar's Legion is definitely an outright evil faction, and the attempts to explain "actually, here's why they're good" are outright pathetic. Also >>729909095

But the factions are still way more interesting than Fallout 3's and Fallout 4's.

>>729914323
>what is war
>in the insanely degenerated moral standards of the post-apocalypse
Is this what they call aphantasia? The inability to evaluate things within the context of their own world or narrative?

>>729912673
>liberals
>bush era america
>warhawks
>liberal
GO BACK TO YOUR SUBREDDIT YOU MEME SLURPING CASUAL.

>>729914503
The game beats you over the head with the fact that the NCR's brand of control would not be all that different when all is said and done. They're just as much in over their heads, hoping to grab Vegas as a power play, and using more or less the same tactics, just with better PR. That's kind of the point of the game, and why third and fourth routes exist.

>>729914615
huge irony considering almost everyone you talk to, almost every individual and every other major faction, all view the legion as obscenely degenerate over the top savages within the context of their own world,a nd the general reaction to any other faction is literally "at least its not the legion"
literally the only one here with the inability to evaluate things within the context of their own world or narrative is you. you literally have to cook up your own headcanon about how the world works to justify your position

i would bet good money you probably do the same thing IRL to excuse evil people too lmao

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>>729912673
>NCR
>liberals
the fuck are you talking about?

>>729913915
What's the point? Every genuine criticism is deflected by "they would have fixed that if they had more time, man".
Might as well shitpost.

>>729914786
NTA but the story writing is utter shit
Firstly, the Legion is portrayed as 'le whacky faggots who eat people'. Seriously, one of the first jokes about them is 'haha a bunch of men who hate women wowwwww what's going on there' and another is how they apparently engage in cannibalism

The entire plot is literally 'legion are scary because they do bad things... we hear but uh the NCR would charge us more money and make it harder to smuggle in illegal shit'

It's Obsidian. The writing they use is always 'well I mean you COULD do the bad thing but wow, that's bad, why do that?????' and retards think it's 'grey'. It's not. It's literally 'choose this option if you're a retarded bad person'

>>729914786
True, but at least the NCR have what would account for a 5-year strategy, and it's not like things couldn't improve at all. But you're right, the NCR are expanding too quickly too fast and exposed themselves to collapse (at least where the Mojave is concerned).

But if we're going to be objective here, House is just a fucking moron who has been sheltered against the reality of the situation since Pre-war bullshit. He's willing to settle other places in the solar system instead of trying to fix whats directly beneath his own god damned feet because he's so disillusioned with how shit has gone down.

The BoS is too busy licking its own wounds and trying to manhandle its own zeitgeist of how things should progress, while still being anchored to the past and not wanting to move forward to better things around them except themselves.

The Legion is too deficient at literally anything beyond thinking about making every problem being solved by a hammer instead of a screwdriver.

I mean, what little else is there for the average joe beyond living day-to-day when at least the NCR are willing to TRY and promise som stability in the future instead of abandoning everything/not caring about everything?

I am NOT saying the NCR is perfect, and my previous post mirrors this, but at least a 'plan' is in order.

>>729915174
they have gay people...so that makes them liberal.

>>729915175
>Every genuine criticism
may I see them?
here, I'll even give a few of my own to start:
>legion is comically evil and wasn't planned to be joinable and it shows
>stupidly easy to get into house's chamber
>HH is boring shit on repeat playthroughs, even DM is better
>vegas should at least look way bigger from the outside, even if you make most of it locked behind gates the player can't enter

>>729914581
whats with the eternal honesty in these games
i think dean domino is the only npc who can fuck you over

fallout new vegas fans have to be one of the biggest type of community who hate the rest of their chosen series with a passion.

like, they have fully gaslit themselves into thinking that bethesda Actively hates new vegas for being 'better than 3/4' and fully believe that Todd is intentionally Destroying every 'good' thing new vegas had out of spite.

when the reality is, Bethesdas incompetence, combined with their carefree, sandbox design philosophy is just, fully incompatible with more on rails/stricter philosophy from the first two games+NV

>>729912673
the followers of the apocalypse are the only liberals in the game

It is a nuanced choice.

If you help Goodsprings, which is the "obvious, correct choice", you become hated by the Powder Gangers. The issue is that Goodsprings' influence extends as far as the sign welcoming you to town, whereas the Powder Gangers control the nearby roads and NCR correctional facility - and lots and lots of dynamite. Even though they're a minor faction, it's a major inconvenience to have your limbs crippled by dynamite every time you try to travel the road, forcing you to spend valuable doctor's bags or travel back to Doc Mitchell in Goodsprings to have him heal your broken limbs. The only rewards you actually receive for helping Goodsprings is a stealth boy (on Joe Cobb's corpse) and fraction of the caps you were promised from Ringo. I think you might get a discount on Doc Mitchell's goods and services as well, but Tingo only gives you the remainder of the caps he owes you at the Crimson Caravan Company's New Vegas branch.

A smart player will use the disguise system to travel the roads, but everyone else is honestly better off helping the Powder Gangers take over the town if you look at it objectively. You don't lose access to any services in Goodspring, you can travel the roads without your limbs being blown off, and you have easy access to the NCR correctional facility without having to fight your way in, which is the quickest and easiest option to finish Primm's side quest for a chunk of easy XP.

All in all, Goodsprings is an excellent tutorial quest.

>>729912673
Are we all forgetting that Caesar WAS a fucking Follower of the Apocalypse from the get-go until he went batshit insane, or am I the only person here who actually played the game?

>>729915921
OMG it's just like Star Wars, where Anakin Skywalker was a good guy until he went evil!

>>729915875
It also sets up the player to think about the NCR / Legion conflict, which is literally down the road. The obvious bad choice isn't as bad as you think once you begin to learn more about them.
But I do think the way you're introduced to the Legion is bad. It might be the most evil thing they do in the entire game, except for using dying NCR soldiers as bait near Nelson.

>>729911667
>In Fallout 3 you'd be forced to help the town
You don't even need to go into Megaton.

>>729915682
It's a bit deeper than that, anon
Obsidian have ALWAYS tried to go back to the CRPG format regardless of game while blaming literally anything possible on the publishers for 'saying no' or 'forcing us to change it'

New Vegas is no different. They had to hire modders because tthey had no idea how to use the GECK. They literally came up with a isometric gameplan, turn based combat, different effects on armor for weapons, etc (like how lasers are weak vs metal armor, that was a perk added in the game) but Bethesda said 'no, jsut do the fucking game you signed for'

They've constantly marketed themselves as 'we're great, we made BG1 and BG2, worship us, publishers fuck us over, each and everytime' and when they got their own shitty game free of that hold, it flopped for what it was

>>729915875
The game literally has Trudy say 'why would you want to do that' in response to asking if you ask about siding with the powder gangers

Anon, It's Obsidian. They want to write a basic black bitch good/evil story and pretend they're some sort of philosophical newage writers going to change the world

>>729915875
Literally nobody has struggled with the 50hp powder gangers, the only lethal part of them is the tripmines and that doesn't change no matter who you are aligned to

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good, bad, grey, i just want to grill for gosh sakes

>>729916281
>>729916145
>Reductionism into strawman, again.

Honestly this would be a much better scenario if the town just wanted your help out of the goodness of your heart and the powder gangers offered you like $100 for yours

You are not forced to intervene in the conflict you CHOOSE to do so. You can simply walk away.

The amount of media illiterate troglodytes that don't understand Caesar or the Legion and just dismiss them off-hand with "WHY WOULD I EVER JOIN A BUNCH OF FASCIST NAZI MISOGYNIST SLAVERS!?!!?!?!" proves Emil 100% right; There's no point trying to write anything good, because gamers are too retarded to understand anything. If Apocalypse now was a videogame, people would treat the colonel exactly like they treat Caesar (wink wink, nudge nudge)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPGMNOLaMw

>>729916368
No idea which one you are here:
>>729916145

But either way, fuck off trolling, thanks

>>729916376
What actually would have been a grey moral choice is 'fight them off or else tell them about Cobb, a few of them sneak in innocently to spend a few hours at the bar to scope out the place, take Trudy hostage and make Cobb surrender and they 'take over' the town without killing anyone else'

Instead it's 'lolz save us or let us die'

>>729916425
And that would be the closest thing to a morally grey choice, honestly.
Sunny can't protect the town but she thinks if everyone else helps, they might be able to. So you can say 'k fuck off' but that's not an option. It would be too realistic and good for story.

>>729916426
I don't want to join Caesar because I spent this whole game murdering every raider I saw and I'm not about to stop now.

>>729916348
BORN TO FISHING FORCE TO WORKED

>>729916519
I don't think it HAD to be a grey moral choice. It's fine if you can either take the selfish or the selfless one.

The issue is that as it stands there is literally no reason you would ever want to side with the Powder Gangers unless you're just RPing as an evil sicko. They could just say "help us out and we'll pay you" and it would work just fine.

>>729915435
Game balance, for one. Even in Hardcore Mode, the game isn't that hard if you're not retarded/doing a challenge run.
For something minor, not having Benny as a companion after freeing him from the Fort is a big missed opportunity.

>>729916519
>>729916613
Because you're blatantly ignoring all the nuance of the situation which has been talked about over and over again, here. >>729915875
You're dismissing it with retarded reductionism into strawman. Hence why I keep saying that you're doing that.

>>729916613
That's my point, anon.
Obsidian don't do 'grey'. They do 'painfully obviously good/evil'
New Vegas is honestly one of the best examples of this
Most of the choices are literally 'kill the nice people/innocents or else let the evil guys take over'

>>729916689
>makes one post
>retard quotes a different poster claiming it's me
>bro now see you have to be, in fact EVERYONE has to be the same person

Only response you're getting. Have a nice powder puffing day ^__^

>>729916689
I do understand this point but it's not really fair because at this point the player doesn't really understand the Powder Gangers and doesn't know about the correctional facility. They wouldn't KNOW any of this information to make this decision.

>>729914597
I assure you the faction that burns people alive, straps bomb collars to prisoners, keeps slaves and calls every outsider a profligate to be killed on sight is morally just the same as the faction that LARPs a sort of government

>>729916848
You're responding to a paid troll - the idea that these paid trolls argue from is 'you, as the player, now know all this information years after playing it your first time so shut the fuck up and just start a new game with this knowledge to play how I feel you should'

>>729916874
Honestly, for a long time, the Legion is really not seen as bad outside of when you meat the guy at Nipton. Most of it is 'lolz thewy're all men so they're gay since owmen can't join' or 'yup, heard they're bad'

It's a weird situation since for what's supposed to be an evil faction, it's made out to be more like a comedy show

>>729916969
>He's so delusional he now thinks that anyone who argues in favor of an objectively well written game is a paid troll

>>729916050
>using dying NCR soldiers as bait near Nelson
Didn't they remove this from the game in a patch after launch?

>>729916969
>outside of when you meat the guy at Nipton
Yeah but that's like, super early game. You get past Tutorial Town, do the Primm shit, pass by the NCR and then you're in Nipton, it's in the first hour or two of the game.

>>729916145
>Trudy says...
Well, of course she does. The point isn't the quest itself, or the fact that most players are likely to side with Goodsprings on a first playthrough. After all, I called it the "obvious, correct choice". The point is that this choice immediately results in you being swarmed with annoying little fucks who WILL get off that one stick of dynamite at the beginning of every fight, even if they die as soon as they throw it. They might honestly be the most annoying weak enemy in the game.

The point of the moral choice of the first quest isn't to be nuanced in and of itself, it's to make the player think
>Okay, having my limbs crippled over and over sucks
>Maybe this wasn't as clear cut a choice as I thought

>>729912673
>NCR
>Liberals
You probably think Caesar is some kind of right-wing fascist too.

>>729917316
>The point of the moral choice of the first quest isn't to be nuanced in and of itself, it's to make the player think
>>Okay, having my limbs crippled over and over sucks
>>Maybe this wasn't as clear cut a choice as I thought
Are they really going to do that and not go
>wow these guys suck
>i was right, they all need to die

>>729917357
He's not really a fascist as much as just a generic warlord with a mildly unusual aesthetic.

>>729908950
i dont think i have ever heard anyone say that fallout 3 is too black and white and NV is better in that regard. Its always about how NV factions/quests are more interesting and you can side with who you want to change who comes out on top in the wasteland, where as things are more straight forward in 3.

>>729911763
Killian wasn't a "seemingly nice merchant", he was the town founder and self-imposed sheriff that also happened to run the general store. What you were really looking at was a clash of progression vs. establishment.

>>729908950
New Vegas fans think the Legion is the best-written faction in history. They're idiots.

Fuck forgot my fucking trip was on

>>729917316
You have VATS and you've got a gun and get warnings when explosions happen and doc mitchell and if you're willing to explore, you most likely can get the 30 med required to get two free doctor bags
Plus, even if you do get all six limbs crippled, dr mitchel still sells doctor bags
So this isn't a chocie like you thing that makes aperson go ;wow, what the fuck'
It's a case of 'I need to start not getting in range of explosives'

>>729916426
kek im sorry but you are such an absurdly stupid faggot and the actual human manifestation of the The Dunning-Kruger effect

people dont dismiss Caesar "because they dont understand him" dude, we all heard his epic speech about Hegel, its not difficult to understand or deep or profound in any way. people dismiss him because hes a piece shit and his ideas are bad, and most importantly, no one in their right mind is interested in enduring his inane bullshit "because the ends will justify the means bro just trust me"

likewise, yes , kurtz is a bad person, or if not bad himself then at least fucking mentally deranged and completely unhinged after being manipulated by bad people. you know, colonel kurtz, the guy living with tribal savages in a fortress of corpses and skeletons and whatnot. not a model for a society that anyone actually wants to live in. (wink wink, nudge nudge)


if you dont understand why people reject Caesar then honestly i can only assume you are a broken person overflowing with resentment of society, but the thing you have to understand is that no one else actually wants to live in your fucked up hyper violent dystopian fever dream that is a manifestation of your mental illness and resentment

>>729915875
You won't meet Powder Gangers if you keep to the road to Primm, where you'll be forced to kill them anyway to get to Beagle.
There's no point in picking Cobb's side besides being evil. Hell, at least the Megaton quest gave you a nice suite for siding with Tenpenny.

>>729908950
You misunderstood what people were saying about FO3 & NV.
It was never about FO3 being "black and white." It was that FO3's bad guys were written like saturday morning cartoon villains. You never wanted to take the "bad" route because it felt lame, and when going "good" you're left disappointed your foe is so cringe.
What makes NV great is that it's actually fun to take the obvious "bad" route on your next playthrough.

Im going with house bc his world will be the most entertaining one. He's the only guy who could fund a coll avantgarde TV station, comicbook magazine, a publishing studio or just simply transcribe or rewrite cool pre-war shit he liked.

What's the entertainment in Ceasarworld? Sex with Fo*ds? Ew.
NCR has probably hella sanitazied programming to le make a better future or something.
House will leave you alone if you want to draw deathclaw smut and sell.it around

>>729917551
This is literally a mountain of retardation. I have nothing to respond to here.

>>729914597
>>729916874

Consolefags caused this, unironically.
The devs wanted to expand the game to take you into the Legion's actual settlements and you'd see their capital of Flagstaff, which has minimal slavery and is very safe and clean compared to the rest of the wasteland. Legion areas were supposed to be safe and have no raiders or even threatening creatures and show a lot of people farming. You were also going to see orphanages that rescue kids stranded in the wasteland that would have otherwise died.

However the technical restraints of the release on PS3/Xbox prevented them from going into this and it never materialized. So the Legion just comes off as comedically evil for no reason.

>>729917865
>What's the entertainment in Ceasarworld? Sex with Fo*ds? Ew.
Better, gay sex

Can you use a really good modlist in the new vegas multiplayer mod everyone having the same mods of course?

I want to coop it with the lady but only with an extensive modding.

>>729917906
No, that's a fucking lie shit out by Sawyer years after the game was done.
Avellone admitted that even with another '10 dlc', it was never going to be enough to showcase the Legion how they wanted .
The development grew too large for what they wanted

>>729908950
Your first mistake was listening to retarded children on the internet obsessing over their childhood game.

>Everyone relentlessly praised this game's writing for the past 15 or so years
>Only recently has there been this sudden turn on the game with the most retarded, nonsensical and reductionist arguments that could only be believed by a mental midget
What the fuck happened?

>>729918061
ai
zoomers

>>729918061
It comes from the fact that there are many games with better writing now and also the fact that Obsidian has failed to make a single good game since.

>>729918230
>many games with better writing now
Name 5.

>>729915180
>Firstly, the Legion is portrayed as 'le whacky faggots who eat people'
>they apparently engage in cannibalism
i dont remember this at all

>>729917885
What has Caesar actually done that is any remotely positive to anyone? Oh yeah, he unified raider tribes so they could raid even harder and better now, really good for everyone around him. He made a network of slave trade around the wasteland, amazing, truly worthy of praise.

>>729917885
>I have nothing to respond to here
correct, because your position is indefensible

>>729908950
Bethesda writers are too vague and just want you to accept shit at face value. The Institute never really tells you their motive in Fallout 4 for example, people above the surface just see they are bad, relay it to the player, and its le evil faction tiem. Its obvious the institute wants a slave race. Bethesda doesn't give context, next time you play any of their Fallout games, just pay attention to how little time it always takes for anyone or any faction to trust you at face value. Then pay attention to how little context you are given for any thing you are doing when its faction related because they want the player in and out of dialogue and to go back killing shit immediately. Caesar's Legion is pretty much the same bullshit as the Institute in 4, but when players talk to Caesar he at least tries to explain how retarded and stupid his entire scheme is, even if it is retarded and evil. Bethesda also can't stop sucking its own cock and New Vegas lets you fuck around a lot more without it feeling like you're just dodging Megaton or Concord deliberately for no real reason. There is no where else dragging your player, faction or settlement wise. Bethesda loves their "find my dad um...NO! XD IM NOT DOING THAT MAIN QUEST!!! LOL" moments. All they do is make a game where if you aren't on their path you just feel like you do side quests that are all inevitable dead ends and your EPIC DAD and EPIC SON are never going to move or do anything without you. Getting the CHERRY T-45 power armor and PVRE BRED GERMAN SHEPARD given to you in 4 within 5 minutes just shows how Bethesda cannot make design where you ask any questions or want context, you just smile and accept it on the surface and keep going like a zombie.

>>729918289
They don't engage in cannibalism, but Caesar tells you to see if you can get the White Gloves to go back to their cannibal raider ways so they'll side with the Legion.

>>729918302
>Made a system that economically benefits people

>>729918230
While Obsidian are one of the worst developers, and frankly most likely to lie and blame anything but themselves for how shit their games are, the South Park game was kino for what it was
South Park Studios did 90% of the heavy lifting: all assests and story. All Obsidian had to do was import it into a basic black bitch engine

>>729918289
Veronica makes the comment about faggotry
I forget the bit about cannibalism. I think it's just a one off from prisoners you rescue

>>729917906
the problem with this of course being that the legion didnt actually get rid of the raiders, they just systematized them

I'm like 99% convinced that this entire hatred of Obisidan and fallout New Vegas is some massive troll operation or one person fucking with everyone. I refuse to believe that this many people could so willingly misinterpret a game like this.

>>729918379
That is completely meaningless. Every system in the planet has economically benefitted *someone* in it.

>>729918061
Obsidian has been deemed a "woke" company, which means they can do NO GOOD.
You shall not praise them or their works.
You must only criticize them.
You must never give them credit for their older works. Those beloved classics are now dogshit.
You must not buy their latest games, but it is your duty to spread negative misinformation about them whenever relevant.
This is the chud code of /v/

>>729918602
So he did do something positive. Are you conceding that?

>>729917551
>you are a broken person overflowing with resentment of society
I have never seen projection on this level.

>>729915994
to be fair I'd go sith too if I had to tardwrangle tribals on a bombed-out shithole planet

>>729918302
Legion biggest strength is providing safety for territory they conquer, assuming they follow the laws.
Someone who played through the game may think that they just enslave/conscript everyone they come across, but that's not actually the case.
On other hand, in NCR, gangs can operate openly and pretty much run the cities (New Reno, I am pretty sure Cass mentions that The Hub is a gang warzone as well)

>>729918716
How is "economically benefitting someone" a positive? If I build a system where literally everyone but me is tortured in agony forever and I get their stuff, I'm benefitting from it. But I obviously have not done anything good.

>>729917729
There's two groups of Powder Gangers on the road to Primm: one at the aviation school, one camped around trailers near Primm. You will encounter and aggro both if you follow the road and are hostile to them.

>>729914597
Man desires Order. Order gives way to totalitarianism, but it was during times of totalitarianism we made the most progress, which is what Caesar models the Legion on.

You can cry all you want, but the Roman Empire was god-tier.

>>729918781
>Legion biggest strength is providing safety for territory they conquer, assuming they follow the laws.
AFTER they pillage, rob and enslave the fuck out of it, as they have been doing to the Mojave. No shit they keep the territories raider-free after, they're stripped them out of everything worth raiding already.

>>729918759
when you have an actual argument to make ill be here

>>729918801
If someone's economically benefitting from something, then that person is experiencing a positive. To the people who benefit from it, thats a positive. I think I'll take this a concession.

>>729918670
>they're woke
Nope. They were always and still are shit

>buy into Legion bad for years
>Actually take the time to listen to them
>even the merchants are praising how safe they are in the legion territory and how nobody hurts them or robs them anymore
sucks if youre gay or a woman but if youre a man the legion is peak comfy

>>729918864
>You can cry all you want, but the Roman Empire was god-tier.
And it was not totalitarian, and the totalitarian eras of it were the shitty ones where they were eating each other for the imperial throne and leaving their outer territories to rot

>>729918878
What's the point of replying to my post if you ignore half of what I said, retard?

>>729918934
>>even the merchants are praising how safe they are in the legion territory and how nobody hurts them or robs them anymore
Yeah this ONE legion-aligned merchant in the heart of the legion has absolutely no incentives to lie or overexaggerate the benefits. None whatsoever.

they had one year (365 days) to make a whole game
politics was the least important part of it

>>729918984
>he's aligned with the guys who keep him safe
i bet you think this is an own, you would be too.

>>729918061
>only recently
People have been pushing the tranny narrative out of spite for close to a decade at this point

>>729918960
They literally do enslave and conscript across the territories they conquer. Someone can just. grab a random innocent woman and sell her off at their leisure. not even the woman's husband or anything- someone just saw her in a position of vulnerability and off she was to slavery.
you are not safe in the Legion. you are nothing but cattle to them.

>>729918061
Because NV trannies decided to start a one sided war with FO3 fans in the mid 2010s and totally slandered Bethesda and Todd by making up fake scenarios in their tranny brains that they hated obsidian and tried to sabotage them.

All started with the commie hbomberguy and his very retarded and bad faith review of FO3.

>>729918878
You are thinking too hard about it, its just a security at the expense of freedoms moral balance thing

>>729912286
They are by definition not the same thing. Though I don't think even the ncr claims to be a liberal democracy

>>729918984
You're either fishing for (You)s or you are genuinely this retarded.
Either way, you're a faggot.

>>729919005
Like I said
>>729916145
>>729917982

They literally aren't capable of delivering. A lot of ex-employees have said (as well as some publishers) the biggest issue they have is prohect management

>>729914503
>Using women in war
You are absolutely retarded.

>>729908950
New Vegas is one of the most overrated video games I’ve ever played.

>>729919128
Proof of that?

>>729908950
It's not really comparable to Megaton, it's not like you get to warn the residents and they refuse to move. Goodsprings residents were warned to give up Ringo or die, they chose not to do it

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>>729918061
>/v/ sings something's praises too much
>pendulum swings
many such cases

>>729919074
no not really. We very obviously see what the Legion brings to the Mojave and it's your daughters being enslaved, your cities being pillaged and your wealth claimed. then, when they're done, they'll sit on the pile of ashes and claim to have brought security. They are nothing but raiders with delusions of grandeur and will never be anything else.

>>729918467
It's like 50% midwits, 30% trolls, and 20% people arguing in good faith in my experience

>>729914503
>NCR are TRYING to bring order in a somewhat peaceable manner,
NCR wants martial law for the sake of coveting their own power.
Caesar genuinely wants the betterment of the mojave through force and hard choices.

>>729918934
>even the merchants

its more like ONLY the merchant, i dont recall anyone else praising them

and of course the merchant is praises them, he gets protection and also to gets maximize his profits via slavery. of course the legion is wonderful for parasites who want to abuse other people and subsist of f of their suffering. that's how these ideologies always play out. i dont think anyone will argue against that.

>>729919134
A woman can shoot a gun just fine, and it's not like the bullet will refuse to penetrate someone's skull because there was a XX chromosomed hand pulling the trigger.

>>729919065
So you're literally just making shit up after you had to deal with a fact that they provide something that others cannot?

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>>729918467
Unironically I believe Bethesda actually has people on payroll to shit on NV/Obsidian and push the idea that 3 and 4 were better games.
Its beyond the typical /v/ contrarianism or trolling.

>>729918984
Cass admits it too and she's NCR, Raul mentions Arizona being safe for trade because of them as well

>>729919276
No, but it lends the command structure over to emotion-based decision making because women fundamentally do not cope with conflict well.

>>729919301
Fun fact
NOBODY says 3 is better
Since 3 is SHIT compared to NV based on the fact NV hired modders to implement some neat mods

But as a base game, story wise, faction wise, yes it's inferior

>>729919227
>Caesar genuinely wants the betterment of the mojave through force and hard choices.
Caesar is full of shit. He wants me to believe the Legion will miraculously just sprout a functional society from a bunch of raiders and slavers if they happen to pull off their biggest raid ever. What fucking person will be disincentivized from doing something after this thing pays off with spectacular results?

>>729908950
Try playing past the tutorial, little zoomzoom

>>729919246
I know Raul says they're good at locking shit down, but he was around when shit was really bad so his standards are likely all sorts of fucked up.

>>729917060
No they still have crucified hostages. In nelson and a ambush for the camp hope supply run.

>>729919276
You can teach a monkey how to shoot a gun as well, does that make monkeys a good fit for soldiers?

>>729918467
Dealing with autistic children obsessively masturbating over babby's first RPG makes other people dislike the game by association.

>>729908950
i ignored that quest and i think most people did too

>>729919294
I am talking about Boone's wife, someone who was just unilaterally sold to the Legion while not being a criminal, an addict or anything. A normal woman can just be sold to slavery by someone who gets them in a vulnerable position, this person will get off scot free and this is normal for them. This is not a society that should be tolerated.

>>729919360
>What fucking person will be disincentivized from doing something after this thing pays off with spectacular results?
If a tribe of melee-wielding Roman larpers takes over the wasteland against technocratic overlords and military dictators, the last thing anyone would do is want to fuck with that group of Roman larpers.

It would be proof of the indomitable human spirit and man's invigoration through sheer force of will. Might makes right, faggot.

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>>729919394
>You can teach a monkey how to shoot a gun as well
Don't talk shit

the abolition of slavery was a mistake

>>729917906
Not in the game at all, so I dont care. Also having a real legion capital makes new vegas pointless.

>>729919487
>Might makes right, faggot
Well, a Legion squad will melt like butter before NCR rifles and I can waltz into the Legion's camp and blow Caesar's head off with trivial ease, so it's clear who has the might here.

>>729919445
NTA but Swayer said there was meant to be a 5-6 quest story where you'd take Boone to raid some Legion camps and rescue her but 'it was cut'

>>729919227
>just two more weeks of man made horrors beyond your comprehension and we will have the utopia bro just trust me

yea and i got a bridge to sell you. sorry but you are human cattle who exists to have your grievances exploited by other people. people like you are literally fucking begging to be taken for a ride by a charismatic strongman and left in the gutter for your trouble

>>729918061
Show came out. New vegas fans pointed out show got things wrong. Now its actually new vegas bad on tons of social media.

>>729919564
>a Legion squad will melt like butter before NCR rifles
So why does the Legion have the NCR on the defensive as of NV? Those guns arent doing so hot when theyre conscripting people with nothing to believe in.

>>729919618
Of course they're on the defensive. They already have the fucking Dam. Being defensive is the obvious move here. Why would they leave their fortified position to charge into the Legion's own?

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>>729919445
oh, so youre just a weak slave moralist cuckold then. its no wonder you dont like the legion

Fallout 1 is the only good game in the series, and even there it is struggling

>>729919618
Legion has the good old russian strategy of having more men than the enemy has bullets.

>>729919445
There it fucking is, you just revealed you know nothing what you're talking about.
Novac was not under Legion control, making Boone and his wife, Carla, not subjects of the Legion, and therefore not under Legion protection.
Legion accepted a trade offer from an independent settlement, so everything you've said about how Legion does not provide protection for people under their rule is worth jackshit.

>>729919276
Sending your main method of producing new soldiers and citizens to the frontlines is retarded.

>>729914737
They literally are.

>>729919718
i can walk into the Legion camp and see beaten slaves. Yeah real good protection you're providing.

The Legion only protects parasites like it. If you're loyal to the death but could one day maybe possibly be a threat like how Joshua was, they'll leave you to rot and die.

Only a retard would side with them.

>>729913140
>what do you mean my actions can have several consequences?

>>729919736
>Sending your main method of producing new soldiers and citizens to the frontlines is retarded.
No not really. Women don't spit out cloned fully formed soldiers. The advantage of having twice as big of a recruiting pool outweighs the marginal one of having slightly less of a breeding rate.

It's not like every woman was going to breed anyway.

>>729919817
Yeah, you dumb fucking retard, Legion has slaves.
I feel like I am talking with someone who had a botched lobotomy.

>>729918061
some retarded movement from bethesdrones mad their games have worse writing

>>729919718
I dont know why he went with Boone the khans are a better exampel.
The khans are allied under caesars legion and if you run a legion play through after using the khans as cannon fodder, the remaining khan men are made into slaves, the troublesome ones executed and all women are made into "wives of the legion". The children are seperated from parents to be raised as legion soldiers. So thats the reward for fighting for the legion, youre wife and kids are taken from you and you become a slave.

>>729919276
>hey we got almost wiped out by nuclear hellfire and the mortality rate is pretty high, we should send the only means of continuing our species to fight.

Darwinism, thy name is anon.

>>729919893
And just by having slaves they are automatically not worthy of life. I spent this whole game shooting parasites, raiders and murderers. I will not stop now because you spout some bullshit about how you're totally going to become an utopia any day now while a bruised weeping slave is washing your feet.

>>729919975
>>hey we got almost wiped out by nuclear hellfire and the mortality rate is pretty high, we should send the only means of continuing our species to fight.
Yeah who cares. As long as you have like 300 or so people the species will continue. It's not actually any urgent of a situation at this point, people are building cities and shit.

>>729912673
>>729909095
>SEARING AUTHORITARIANISM ISNT VIABLE IN A VIOLENT WASTELAND CHUD

>>729918816
And they're both conveniently located on the opposite side of the other road, so you'll have to go out of your way to be detected by them.
Again, there's zero reason not to help Goodprings.

>>729919760
No they’re not you fucking troglodyte.

>>729919987
>And just by having slaves they are automatically not worthy of life.
Every single poster on this board had an ancestor who owned slaves. They created us, they created our society, which whether you like it or not is the best it's ever been.

>>729920054
Our goal should be to stop being a violent wasteland. This can be easily done by totally exterminating all raiders, Fiends, Khans, all of the Legion, all of the Powder Gangers and also House and the Three Families.

>>729908950
Did you actually talk to the "bandits"? They're mostly dudes who wanted to live independently who were punished for that by being locked in prison and now they're forced to live like outlaws.

>>729920097
>Every single poster on this board had an ancestor who owned slaves
Thats unlikely. Youre like 4x more likely to have a slave as a ancestor than a slave owner.

>>729920097
What kind of fucking retarded argument is this? We also had ancestors who were troglodytes living in caves, that doesn't make living in caves any good.

>>729916063
Megaton isn't the tutorial area, Vault 101 is and if you forget you have to go through the entire childhood sequence if you don't figure out how to clip through the floor. In New Vegas you can literally just walk straight out of Goodsprings without any walls interfering with you.

>>729920119
>leaves out the NCR who even in Fallout 2 are being very scummy and also allow a slaver to operate right outside
kek NCRfags are deluded

>>729920119
Okay Elijah

>>729920186
Sounds peak comfy.

Father Elijah did nothing wrong, Laura Bailey fags need to accept this.

As someone who recently played both Fallout 3 and aftwr played New Vegas, F3 is really boring and shallow overall. Without Rose tinted goggles its pretty mid actually. It does have cool guns and some cool ideas, but that's about it.

The legion aren’t le good. ISIS was literally the legion IRL and they were pretty much just a bunch of sandnigs raping.

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>>729919893
if only there was countless historical examples we could look to on how slavery as an institution hurts a civilization for the economic benefit of a small caste of slave owners

its kind of sad that you are so mentally deranged that you defend extreme cruelty out of pure contrarianism

>>729920227
I will accept the NCR extermination if the Brotherhood goes with it, also whatever remains of the Enclave, also the Institute, and also that fag Ulysses.

>>729920227
You mean the camp where the NCR rangers pay you to free them, and doing so gets you into the rangers, the quest called "Free the Slaves"?

>>729920348
>ISIS was literally the legion IRL
weird, im pretty sure the Legion attacks NCR. Unlike ISIS who never attacks a certain country.

>>729920341
As someone who has done six playthroughs in each, Fallout 3 feels the best to replay.

>>729920404
Yeah, Legion should have issued magic instead, that way they could have replaced the need for slaves.

>>729920534
Everyone seems to be doing just fine without slaves. Don't see why they couldn't do it.

>>729920534
You could use robots. Or whatever magic the NCR uses.

>>729920534
theres no such thing as a "need for slaves" so im not sure what exactly you are getting at

>>729920565
>Everyone seems to be doing just fine without slaves.
Yeah that's why Goodsprings is being raped by Gangers like Primm, Helios One got raped, the Brotherhood is hiding, the NCR is struggling against Cook-Cook and the gang, Freeside is so impoverished kids are chasing rats through the street and the Enclave hides in a bunker.

>>729920565
>heavily industrialized cities of California vs bum-fuck nowhere rural desert
Same thing

>>729918349
It's so funny that people just ignored this lol
The legion are pretty blatantly the bad guys and that's fine, being evil is funny in games

>>729920621
Yeah, everytime humanity used slavery it was just for the lolz, everybody knows that the moment a human becomes a slave they are incapable of labor.

>>729920629
how exactly does slavery solve any of those issues? do you even understand how slavery helped undermine the roman empire, you know, the empire you are trying to LARP as?

for people who are obsessed with "not imitating the old world": you sure are obsessed with imitating the failures of the old world

>>729920683
The NCR did not become industrialized again out of nowhere and they did it without slaves.

If anything being in the desert is a plus because shit is unusually preserved by wasteland standards.

>>729920629
the frontier warzone being a frontier warzone is no reason to enslave everyone instead, your logic is completely nonsensical anon just admit you have some need to be le edgy contrarian

>>729920341
pretty much how I felt. Fun to play, but every play through ends up being the same, very boring to play.
good DLCs though

>>729920759
ok, now maybe you can try replying to me instead of having fake arguments with the imaginary straw man in your head

>>729920759
Humans used slaves because they are convenient, but slavery is a poisoned bargain. It gives control of the workforce to a caste of slavers. It is drastically less effective then employed or even feudal workers. It fucks you in the long term because slaves are vastly worse consumers AND laborers, meaning your economy sucks.

>>729920814
What's the problem? You already believe that slaves are unable to be used as laborers, so there is no need to discuss the topic any further.

>>729920901
>You already believe that slaves are unable to be used as laborers


dude for the second time, im right here, try talking to ME not your imaginary friend in your mind. you dont need to (you) me if youre just going to talk to yourself

>It's another episode of Legionfags making up headcanons about how every single faction is about to collapse in just two more weeks

>>729920759
Why are we using slaves in a setting where we can produce robots for physical labor?
>but how would caesar know that
Hes in the followers of the apocalypse they literally work on Ede and are one of the few groups to know wtf a eyebot is.

>>729920962
Why are you replying to me still?
Are you this desperate for validation?
Mommy and daddy didn't love you enough?

>>729921065
youre the one who keeps replying to me for god knows what reason while having an argument with yourself ?

>>729921065
not that anon but you are projecting hardcore rn

>>729919276
>>729919736
imagione having to jump into your foxhole and the things just jammed full of used tampons.

>>729921037
Do you actually expect Caesar (Edward) to give courses on robotics to people who are illiterate?
There may be "smarter" tribes in Fallout, but most of them are the stereotypical spear chuckers, and the Legion is playing into that "strength": they're dumb but loyal warriors who don't know how to use anything more advanced than a rifle.

>>729921157
>>729921197
Awwh, baby came for another (You)?
There, there, does attentionwhore feel better now?

>>729921325
well i accept your concession i guess

>>729921254
>the legion is too stupid to make anything useful past being nigger spear chuckers
>the legion is actually smarter than the NCR, mr house and everyone else who can produce robots and advanced tech
???

>>729921248
...why would it be? It should be thrown wherever your soldiers are shitting or pissing. Do you also just leave used toilet paper lying around everywhere?

>>729921248
Did you know that tampons are, as a matter of fact, sometimes used to quickly plug gunshot wounds, as evidenced by war in Ukraine?

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Play FNV the writing is peak
>uhhhh if you go east you won't be in west
>shit nigga you got a point

The peak writing everyone.

>>729921325
You seem pretty sad and angry

>>729921423
>guy lost
>tell him he's lost
>"damn i lost"
>leaves (because he lost)
it was that simple

>>729921409
What the fuck are you talking about, retard?
Legion (Caesar) offers solutions to something that others in the wasteland have issues with (maintaining order), the Legion (army) enforces it and they are not supposed to question the orders, them not questioning the orders is what makes them efficient.

>>729920759
Slavery benefits individuals at the expense of other individuals and society at large.slavery benefits exactly one class of people: greedy parasites. that's it. if you actually want to build a thriving and stable civilization, slavery as an institution aggressively undermines that goal

ancient Rome is a great example of this phenomena of course, but people such as yourself dont actually know anything about history

>>729921557
>nigger spear chuckers are better at maintaining order than a intelligent white man like mr house
Thats seems unlikely, Africa doesnt look like a nice place to live.

>>729921383
>>729921461
Oooh, here for another one?
Here it goes, whoooah, here comes the (You)!
Don't choke on it, you stupid faggots!

>>729921414
I see you've never met a woman.

>>729921637
They're nigger spear chuckers under the control of an intelligent white man. Best of both worlds.

>>729921637
Yeah, Mr House is so good at maintaining order that not a single one of the casinos that directly respond to him are fully loyal to him and his wishes lmao
>The Tops: Benny plans to overthrow House
>Gomorrah: Omertas work with the Legion and plan to shoot up the Strip during Battle of Hoover Dam
>Ultra-Luxe: Mortimer has a secret society planning to return to their cannibalistic ways
On the other hand, Legion has no issues with enforcing loyalty within their ranks.

>>729921812
What a jewish statement.

>>729913613
>then you're the character that the game decides you are
A Courier?

>>729921947
Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa.

>>729922017
Rhodesia didnt encourage the nigger to interbreed with the white man unlike Caesar who makes interbreeding mandatory for his brown hordes.

>>729913915
my criticism is that House allows the Freeside gangs to prey on NCR civilians when those NCR visitors are the very life and money that keeps his Strip going

>>729920091
>The inheritors of THE liberal empire aren't liberal.
Fucking retard.>>729920097

>>729921898
The omertas and khans signing up for the legion so they can be enslaved and raped is always funny to me. Like what did you think was going to happen?

>>729921423
This was pretty gay. I get they had to give speechfags a way out since its the end of the game but I find it hard to believe a guy who slaughtered his entire tribe after the thought of losing crossed his mind wouldnt try to cleave your head off after being told to fuck off.

>>729922640
He doesn't see it as a loss somehow, if you make him think he's retreating he still attacks you

>>729922640
I figure most would get their shit pushed in for trying. The Courier just has enough cache as a badass that he's willing to hear you out. Should've had some extra stuff to do first, like the Master in F1, to fully convince him. Just having 100 speech or barter is easy by endgame.

>>729922598
Omertas used to be a tribe that was known for their habit of kidnapping and enslaving others before House came along, working with Legion would be like returning to their roots.
Khans are shown to be in a pretty dire position, and they'd rather go out with a bang, giving NCR a middle finger while they're at it. If they get integrated in the Legion, ending slides mention that despite having to experience what Legion does to them, a lot of them are happy with the fact that they could fuck NCR up and it was worth the price.

>>729913915
Buddy, are you new to the internet? There havent been any legitimate discussions anywhere online since like 2010.

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How comes the Legion is able to sustain itself in terms of food and water? If you can somewhat counter the former with cannibalism, you can't really get drinkable water everywhere

>>729922983
>Legion would be like returning to their roots
As slaves? They arent owners they are the slaves.

>>729923742
What reddit thread did you get this headcanon from?
Fate of omertas in Legion victory is never specified in game.

>>729915875
how did nobody notice this obvious ai post

>>729917389
Are they really going to do that and not go
>wow these guys suck
>i was right, they all need to die
This. Everybody murders all the powder gangers and gets the xp. It's like how there is no options with the Boomers other than to just help with everything best you can.

>>729917483
>side with who you want to change who comes out on top in the wasteland,
This is the trick. The situation is so interesting and everyone has their own opinion on who should rule and why. Despite that we never actually see the impact, it's left off screen and thus a lot of the choice is sort of an illusion.

>>729923915
>omertas are magically different from the khans because....

>>729924479
People get so fucking retarded whenever FNV Legion is getting discussed.
Khans get integrated into the Legion, Omertas get integrated into the Legion, some as slaves, others as soldiers.
What's so fucking hard to understand?

>>729921415
tampons are a bad way to stop bleeding
it absorbs the blood (that has already left your body) but it doesn't actually prevent any more bleeding
this is a myth

>>729924067
I wrote it, thoughfully.

Frankly I find every faction too flawed and awful to consider wanting them to succeed. Fuck off with the morally gray "everything choice you make is bad" nonsense honestly.

>>729908950
>>first conflict: help the town that selflessly saved your life or side with bandits to slaughter them for no reason
it's supposed to be an obvious moral choice lol

only autistic retards (see: people that cry about trannies 24/7) pick the latter

>>729908950
I did Run Goodsprings Run in my latest playthrough because I wanted to be a scoundrel and an outlaw. I got about as far as killing off all my partners in Dead Money and Kimball but still told Josh to fight King Salty fair and square, didn't splatter the big brains, and left the bizzaro mailman alive. Ended the game with neutral karma, probably from all the fiends I killed.

>>729916602
>>729916348
ONLY THE FORKLIFT DRIVER SMILES BACK

FO3 had a cooler setting and better story

>>729921423
You should have to have already killed Caesar for him to agree to this. How could anybody ever even consider retreating after what happened to Graham?

>>729914597
>Caesar's Legion is definitely an outright evil faction
no it isn't you are low iq play the game

>>729927208
see >>729919592

you are actual shameless human cattle and proud of it lmfao

for the record
>>Were you always intending to make the four main "factions" morally grey? It seems for the most part that the Legion seemed to get shafted, both in content and moral ambiguity.
>The intention for the NCR and Legion was that most people would initially perceive the NCR as "good guys" and the Legion as "bad guys". Over time and exposure to more aspects of NCR and Legion culture, the dark side of NCR would show (this happened) and the positive aspects of the Legion would show (this did not happen, in large part because the Legion areas east of the Colorado were cut).
Josh Sawyer Formspring Posts, 2012

>>729923470
It's hard to know without cut content, but there is a neutral trader NPC outside of Fortification Hill who is happy under Legion rule because, "the roads have never been safer." He's more than happy to trade with the people crucifying criminals and bandits who would otherwise be raiding his caravans. We do know that the Legion has supply lines as well, implied from the fact that the campaign against the tribes of Colorado strained them to their limits.

It's too bad we didn't get one or two Legion-affiliated settlements in-game.

>>729915682
>like, they have fully gaslit themselves into thinking that bethesda Actively hates new vegas for being 'better than 3/4' and fully believe that Todd is intentionally Destroying every 'good' thing new vegas had out of spite.
The only people who believe that are Fallout 3 posters.
>haha see he hates NV
Like I'm supposed to care what Todd Thinks.

>>729929298
There should have been a full on Legion centric DLC seperate from the overall arc of Dead Money to Lonesome Road. In it you help a Centurion weed out corruption before its finally revealed by the citizens and an undercover Frumentari that he was the corrupt one, harming citizens and siding with local cartels and criminals. A Legate (since Ulysses says theres others besides Graham and Lanius) then comes there and personally slaughters the Centurion and everyone conspiring with him, then tells the townsfolk that no more corruption from Legionaries will be tolerated. This could have shown that they dont even tolerate bullshit from their own regardless of rank or age.

>>729912673
>all this seething from chuds
way to out yourself as secondaries
even in fallout 2 ncr vs enclave was always about left vs right

>>729913613
Lmao yeah the game takes you from a courier to....... a courier who delivered a package somewhere!!!!

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>>729913613
Ulysses is an unreliable narrator who squarely lays the blame for everything that happened to The Divide which has absolutely zero evidence of post-war habitation, btw. Just pre-war military installations, the occasional dead caravaneer trying to find a way through, and NCR/Legion remnants. squarely at the feet of the player character. Who he had literally never met before. It's a Yes Man type situation where it's the player's headcanon taking over to decide if he has a point, or to say, "No, you're just fucking crazy." Then blowing his head off with the Brush Gun.

>>729908950

>Victor, a securitron owned by House, digs you out and brings you to a doctor to save you
>Goodsprings

1 person from that town did something to help you.
They are not a town who selflessly saved your life.

How often do you think the couriers end up with nothing but their bodies tossed in some filthy pit, robbed and humiliated?

>>729932096
Its not even that he's an unreliable narrator. He's a buckbroken tribal whose personal philosophy of owning actions and their consequences regardless of intent ascribes blame no matter WHAT happens.

Its kind of his point. Its how he copes with being stripped of his culture and being an agent of those who do the stripping, as an echo of that culture's focus on oral tradition. He's not meant to have a point and he's not meant to be Word of God gospel. He's a depiction of the way the old world breaks the new. The way every DLC is a microcosm of NV's and Fallout in general's, premise of new growth being infected by the legacy of the old rot. House taming the Vegas tribals, The Legion being a machine that takes the blood of new humanity and spits out a hollow mockery of a once great empire, NCR and its bureaucracy and bloated inefficiency consuming faster than it can produce. Its driven home in this game over and over and over.

>>729932316
Noooooo I demand le morally gray in everything! Its unrealistic to have antagonistic people who want more things attacking people who have stuff and are content with just living their lives!!! This is the only issue the game ever poses! Validate my disingenuous framing so I can in turn feel validated for disliking arbitrary media instead of just living a normal life unbothered by things I am not interested in!!!!

You can also pass a shipment of drugs from one gang of less violent bandits to a band of literal cannibals who took over a vault. The choice of a true psycho is getting money for the drugs, then killing the fiends after. It's just too deep.

>>729912286
See? The gray morality you requested.
Also >>729909095 forgot to mention you can also side with a terminally ill Rome revivalist or become a detached from reality technocrate yourself.

>"The NCR isn't a good guy faction! It's all morally complex!"

>lose karma
>NCR soldier runs towards me
>"We will not tolerate the forces of EVIL!"
>Warns me that I need to get more good boy points or else
>literal karma police
>morally grey

New Vegas fans are really the most delusional ones. They also praise NV for showing a word that has rebuilt even though nothing in New Vegas has been rebuilt.

what do you guys think about this guy ncr and legion redesign
https://youtu.be/hVkRr18zkCY
https://youtu.be/lEG6r_NYaUs

>>729908950
It's just an intro to making choices in the game that affect the world. Giving you a needlessly evil choice is just a given.

>>729920054
Only the player is allowed to turn former convicts into sausage and mince meat (first figuratively with levels and perks literally) or incinerate deranged drug addicts into humble ash piles.
>>729920759
You can literally go and buy a slave in libya today for triple digits of US dollars.
Ever heard of the small country called Qatar or United Arab Emirates and their infinite free labor force trick involving indians and dead end visas?
You can buy a uterus to carry your child to completion with 0 of the extra body weight by using an ukrainian whore to do it for you.
You are so indoctrinated and disconnected from grim realities around you in real life you cannot even entertain what goes against your programming in fiction.
How do you feel about women having less int and more charisma or orcs having more strength and less intelligence?
>>729921037
Because we can't produce robots out of thin air, or sand, or even out of dirt and crops growing in it? But we can take useless retarded post nuclear amerigroid tribals and give them identity and a machete and point them at a soldier with a gun and tell him to fetch the gun.
>>729922598
>Like what did you think was going to happen?
The thing emissaries of the legion promised which was a completely false but well constructed and believable lie
>>729923470
The other side of colorado river, Arizona New Mexico have farmland

>>729934360
That doesn't happen. NCR and legion only care about your reputation with them, not your karma.

Picking a sheriff for Primm alone is more nuanced than anything in Bethesda Fallout except the Pitt.

ITT: Some raid from a bunch of retards pathetically clutching at straws to make NV look bad.

>>729935473
>what if the greaseskinned green and brown subhuman should actually remain enslaved by BoS defector
profound...

>>729912286
The writers did not know this. they gay, you see.

>>729918061
They played it for the first time.

>>729920404
>>729920761
Slavery is basically a completely normal practice that's morally equivalent to wage labor, but because the last historical instance was against the sacred animals that are Black People, Americans have to pretend it's a unique evil that destroys your civilization.

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In the early game siding with the powder gangsters is the easiest way to
1. not piss off the gangsters by siding with Goodsprings, making it so you dont get blown up or locked away from NCRCF
2. enter the correctional facility to get early game quests
3. Get the best early game loot/money

the choice isnt good vs evil in a metapolitical sense, rather it is about the practicality of exploiting something in plain view vs helping helpers, or in other words its the most base subversion of Fallouts G vs E karma

>>729937138
Even back then this quest wasn't considered a test in brotherly virtues but rather a display of the scale of freedom in the degree of roleplaying you can do, its reward and 'additional vs blocked off content' that can occur
Its really interesting how the topics of morality and ethics have gotten shackled with neuroticism in media as a tool leading to even hardcore RPG forums discussing choices as if they were normalfags/moralfags

>>729937138
When the game released powder gangers were hostile by default so doing the quest for them was a way to make them neutral, but this was changed in a patch and now they leave you alone as long as you don't do the quest against them in goodsprings, or otherwise piss them off.
And you don't really get any good loot or anything for actually helping the powder gangers. Ironically one of the only reasons to do anything with the powder gangers besides shoot them on site is so that you can betray them an help the NCR take back the prison.

>>729937363
>doing the quest for them was a way to make them neutral,
also disguises, though disguises were bugged for a bit

>>729908950
it starts off pretty black and white but turns into barely different shades of grey as you learn more and experience the world more.

>>729908950
The "town" didn't save your life, Victor (House) did, and Sunny is pretty much the only one that's truly nice to you with no strings or stat checks attached. Plus there's more than two ways to handle the whole event.
Hell, you can just scrap the whole town of everything not nailed down and leave if you want, Goodsprings and the surrounding area is pretty standalone from the rest of the game, outside of possibly getting some... uh, Crimson Caravan rep, I think?

>>729918061
Newfags brought in by the show covering New Vegas.

>>729909095
>the actual gray morality comes later when you choose to side with either the liberal democracy or the fascist dictatorship
That's what all the ype is about? *removes from wishlist*

>>729937517
The problem is, unless I'm misremembering something, you still couldn't do much because anyone with anything remotely interesting to say can see through disguises. It's enough to not be attacked when you walk in to talk to meyers, after you kill the guy at the door, but that's it. Otherwise it just keeps you from being attacked by the low level powder gangers walking around, but who cares about that?

>>729937732 (me)
*Victor and the doc

The moral dilemma was supposed to asking whether you'd willingly stick your just-saved neck out for a bunch of randoms or not. Most players just kill the Powder Gangers & loot their hideout because it's morally correct to murder+loot bandits.
Of course wiping out the Powder Gangers makes you no different from the Legion.
The Legion crucifies Powder Gangers as a preventative measure--if you see a bunch of crucified bandits maybe you'd think twice before committing acts of banditry in Legion territory. The NCR doesn't protect you from bandits because the NCR are a bunch of bandit gangsters.

>>729938068
>The Legion crucifies Powder Gangers as a preventative measure
Yeah, and? I'm not doing that. They started a shootout in the middle of the city to take it over. I'm just defending it. And if they don't attack me I won't attack them. Completely different scenarios.

>>729909095
That and either helping some ghouls who did nothing to you or blowing them up cause lol funny vgh hard choices vgh

>>729908950
>no reason
Bro they got loot in that saloon, I swears it.

>>729937768
>>729918061
AI summaries hallucinating shit, TV show, Twitter NIGGERS who only know the game not from wiki but from memes completely disconnected from the game itself

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>>729909095
Caesar's Legion is the morally correct and superior choice however

>>729938068
What people don't remember from the game is that it uses a writing trick: Both sides of Ghost Town Gunfight happen for different reasons
IF YOU SIDE WITH GOODSPRINGS, Powder Gangers attack it just to get to Joe Cobb because Goodsprings is hiding him
IF YOU SIDE WITH THE GANGSTERS, the Courier
>(You)
Suggest to Joe Cobb that the Gangers take over and convince him to control Goodsprings as a miniature fiefdom. This does not apply if you side with Goodsprings normally as the idea is insane without the Couriers help

Most people are missing the context regarding the 'dilemma' not being siding with Gangsters but manipulating them into doing shit for you to take over a small village

>>729938173
The blowing them up part is a meme, but you could just kill them ahead of time so they don't exploit the rockets because House might want them later.

>>729908950
Nothing in New Vegas is as morally gray as the Tenpenny tower quest with Roy Philips, but New Vegas fanboys forget this.

>>729913140
Stop getting the bad endings, scrub.

>>729938805
FUCK OFF YOU TOOL!

>>729939103
>blow up that town with a nuke because it ruins my view
literal cartoons have more nuance than this

>>729918864
>but it was during times of totalitarianism we made the most progress
We made the most progress when we invented the liberal nation state doe

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What is it about New Vegas that brings out some of the most bad faith argued on /v/?

>>729920405
>if we kill everyone there will be no more conflict
kinda based desu

>>729939273
you've never lived in an HOA and it shows

>>729939281
Not true, we made the most progress morally and philosophically when Greeks/Romans ruled the world.
As for economic/scientific, the only correlation is that it was post Enlightenment/Printing Press/Renaissance

>>729939103
>Uppity nigger with 0 claim over someone else's private property makes impotent threat to murder everyone
>you can help him murder everyone with feral ghouls or you can subvert the human population into tolerating coexistence
>game's global karma system considers the nigger to be morally very good and his motivations and acts noble
thank you for using all of your 30 IQ points to make this retarded baitpost, must've been quite the sacrifice in the slums of mumbai.
>>729939273
He means
>I want the tower because it's nice and metro sewers aren't :(
You could have the quest have ethical nuance if Roy Phillips was the prewar owner of the tower with the guarantor of his property claim being the US government which unfortunately has been vaporized in a nuclear war in 2077 and there's no successor state yet. for a Sawyerian nobody gets happy or resolved in a conclusive matter twist: you can also dig deeper and find out that roy phillips is an assumed name of a ghoul who's only maybe been to the tower once before the war and found a copy of a Property Deed in some ruins at some point later
Do you want want to believe that a legal document holds more validity than actions? Tenpenny could be interpreted as squatting on someone else's property, but it prospers, maybe it could prosper more under a "rightful" proprietor?
Does Might Make Right? Yes as a foundation, without might it's impotent wordceling regardless of how noble it is.

>>729922640
yeah, Fallout 2 did this right. You can't talk Frank Horrigan into anything, but you can convince a team of enclave guys to fight him with you and you can use science to set up automated defenses to kill him. The RPG options are covered without trivializing the character. You could convince some other Caeser's Legion guy to backstab Lanius with speech and barter, or you could drive Lanius insane with insults to cause him to do something stupid, etc.

>>729922640
>A guy who slaughtered his entire tribe
Were you there to witness it?
Was it a chupacabra with an automatic blunderbuss who kept killing cattle in Novac?
Does the legion approve of Great Khan's culture of manufacturing, distributing and using chems and chimping out at NCR? Karl says it does...
Who Lanius *actually is* and what he is made up to be is at odds by design. He's an intelligent tactician who also has an incomplete image of what NCR is a corrupt and broken society running short on food and water vs what he expects it to be: a civilization to match the legion in a no holds barred fight unlike the tribals and statelets he wiped the floor with.

>>729939587
The only reason philosophy flourished in Greece is because greek city states were less despotic than their contemporaries, the Romans were relatively more despotic for most of their history which is why their intellectual heritage was mostly in architecture, law and warfare.
>As for economic/scientific, the only correlation is that it was post Enlightenment/Printing Press/Renaissance
Which also ended up creating the basis for the modern liberal nation state.

>>729939203
How's that Brahmin Barons dick tasting like?

>>729937138
i think they thought i would really be changing my outfits every 5 minutes to "blend in" with factions instead of just using my vault jumpsuit

>>729924067
not nearly enough GPTisms for that to be AI

>>729920119
>if we just completely obliterate all the tribes that commit violence against us then there will be no more violence
there will still be violence, it's just that the NCR will be living out its "we're a real country" fantasies by monopolizing said violence

>>729912880

What is this image from?

This thread is full of people who came in here with the intent of ragebaiting but then got ragebaited themselves

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>kill cass
>enslave arcade
>kill the khans

feels good man

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Ave, true to Caesar

>>729942145
how does he cope with the fact Ranger Ghost has probably killed 90 legion cucks?

>>729941680
pixiv filename

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>>729940346
>>729922640
Except Lanius being able to be talked down IS contextualized well within the game. If you bother to learn Lanius's backstory, you learn that
>his previous campaign against the Colorado tribes almost crashed and burned because a stalemate stretched the Legion's resources to their limit
>his predecessor, the Malpais Legate, was covered in pitch and thrown into the Grand Canyon for failing to win the first Battle of Hoover Dam
>coincidentally, Lanius is currently leading a protracted military campaign that the Legion is likely to lose due to the Courier's intervention
Lanius isn't stupid. On the contrary, he's a strategist. When the Courier and his companions enter the Legion camp, he knows his head is on the chopping block, trapped between a rock and a hard place. The rock is fighting, losing, and returning to Caesar to be executed for failure if he doesn't lose his life in the battle itself. The hard place is retreating, returning to Caesar, and MAYBE being executed for failing to send his legions to their deaths. Lanius being able to be talked down with a Speech check is reasonable in context.

That said, I think it would be much better if the Speech option to dissuade Lanius required the Courier to have had the dialogue about the Colorado campaign.

>>729943370
yeah but what about our memes?

>>729940885
>>Which also ended up creating the basis for the modern liberal nation state.
Uhh it also created the Absolute Monarchy, the Nationalist Nation (which is more prevalent than Liberal is today), and the first gommie :DD

>>729943370
Talking down Lanius should've required any Courier to talk to most NPC's regarding the Legion's history, in the base game at least. Then talking to NCR's version of who they think he is and Legion's other campaigns, High Speech and at least 3 high combat attributes so Lanius doesn't feel like hes talking to a pussy, but an equal.

>speech check
the check you guys keep referring to is a BARTER check. The speech check is a bit different

>>729943568
It's been a long time since I properly played NV, but I recall the DLCs doing some shit like this. Or maybe I'm just thinking about Dead Money's funny dialogue checks that caused Dean to turn on you for being competent. You can call it bad game design if you want, but I still respect that decision and think it's an incredibly interesting way to leverage such a simplistic system.

Am I misremembering, or did Ulysses have a similar thing going on where you could collect information while progressing through Lonesome Road that you could then hurl in his face in the final confrontation?

>>729943370
>Malpais Legate
Never thought about it, but what's up with that name?

>>729943821
possibly implies Legion stretched all the way to New Mexico and that's where Joshua first displayed his skills?

>>729943716
For Ulysses you need to find all of his audio tapes to get him to stand down and side with you against the Marked Men attacking the nuclear compound.

>>729943964
I believe so, yes.