Do we REALLY need path tracing for mirrors in games?
>>730538123It's lost technology bro, like landing on the moon. Be nice or Capcum will make the next RE open world
>>730538123>cuts you fps in half
>>730538123no, there are better ways to achieve that
>>730538741I had one of the devs of postal 4 get mad when I asked to add Ray tracing ao we can have reflections in mirrors like in postal 2 and he got triggered and said we don't need it for that then they actually updated p4 to have mirror reflections and it looked like total dogshit. Made me laugh, like I get it, you don't need it but it's good to have as an option.
>>730538123Hell no we don't.
>>730538965>low enough poly county it can render twicevs>unoptimized trash that can barely run once
>>730538935Man, the zoomer "devs" are such pathetic betas....>>730539051>low enough poly county it can render twiceReminder that said "low poly" games were literally the Crysis-like titles of the era, that stressed the contemporary systems a lot; many of us had maybe 128MB DirectX8.1 at the time.And the whole "lol u gotta render teh scene TWICE!!" meme just does not want to die, does it? That's literally how Planar Reflections do not work.And yes, RE1 used mirrored models trick. Not the point.
>they should waste time getting mirrors working
>>730538741Like?
>>730539423use a mirror texture of course
>>730539340>literal drag and drop feature in all modern game engines for the past 12 years>"waste time"I know what you are, brownie.>>730539423Planar reflections.AKA basic stuff we've had since Y2K days.
>>730539215Nice reflections do so much more for how good a scene looks than poly counts, high res textures and post processing that it's unreal. Why the fuck do devs even fuck up their engines and games to the point that reflections are unviable? It just makes games look worse.
>>730538965Replayed Max Payne 2 recently. I didn't remember how kino it was.
why nobody just using screen space reflections anymore
Raytracing has been a thing for like 5 years now.Can you guys still not run it or something?
>>730540454>Why the fuck do devs even fuck up their engines and games to the point that reflections are unviable?UE5 is literally a movie 3D scene production tool first, and a game-making tool second these days.Hollywood producers don't care if the scene runs at 2fps average on consumer tier PC hardware, as it's still 1000 times faster than the oldschool way of first crafting the scene, then slooowly rendering it into static footage, and hoping it matches the desired looks.There's also the secondary cancer of GenZ "Blender generation" stepping into the work force, never having learned any real art theories. They're mostly self-taught on YT tutorials, and don't understand that yes - even with out RTX5090 and Ryzen 9800x3D systems, optimization and hand-crafted detailing is very desirable.>>730540776They do.Too much in fact. It plagues everything.Hell, the shitty "ray tracing" of UE5 RELIES on SSR; it's the "high res" reflections you see when the reflected bits are visible on your camera. The engine only switch to lower quality Lumen reflections when the SSR has notable gaps.And again: because the SSR can only take pieces of already rendered frame's bits and flip / stretch them around, they cannot show what's happening behind the camera.>>730540823RT can be done on 10yo GTX cards if needed, but it's still fucking heavy as fuck + a stupid crutch for things we had solved 20 years ago.
>>730540776>why nobody just using screen space reflections anymoreSSR has never worked for mirrors lol.
>>730540823I don't think ray traced reflections are the problem, the alternative is. Have you seen what awful dogshit most games are stuck with? Lumen reflections are so fucking ugly that they instantly make whatever they show up in instantly look like pure vomit no matter what. Low res planar or screen space reflections are also FUCKING hideous and immediately distracting horseshit.Games need to go back to lower complexity shaders and better performing scenes so we can have good resolution and clarity for all effects. That on its own is a TREMENDOUS improvement on overall visual quality in all situations. And yes, ray traced scenes are affected by this dramatically because the upscaling and noise filtering required for decent frame rates under RT look like complete dogshit even if the reflections and lighting look good.
>>730538123Good question...
>>730538123No, we need Path Tracing so lighting doesn't fucking suck in high fidelity games and to cut dev times.Like, don't you all see it? Capcom games in this engine are a good example too, the lighting is absolute garbage in all of them, they are begging and crying for PT.
>>730541539
>>730541649
>>730541539TNN in general is tech soul because the game is entirely pre-rendered backgrounds, and then uses a second layer highlight to interact with the player's vertex flashlight while still lighting up the actual 3D vertexes render-boxing the environment and all. The result is, at least on lower resolution systems, making the environments look way more detailed and have depth that you normally didn't get with these kinds of games. The RE0 and 1 Remake stuff kinda uses a shadow map but not to the same scale since the player doesn't get a personal light, so it mostly exists for player/object shadows.
>>730541724
>>730541810I like this one, nice attention to detail.
>>730541914They're even functional in this one, as enemies can see you in them. Some devs are just built differently.
>>730540435>just render the scene again broyeah i'll go get my rtx6099
>>730542062Can ray tracing/path tracing even pull this effect off?
>>730540435>I know what you are, browniesomeone with better hardware than you
>>730541060>SS4 lanternDoesn't this game also have some crazy high poly statue?
>>730541539>pointing a torch at the mirror illuminates the back of her coat fucking awesome, just like real life
>>730542207Yes? I can go load up nuDoom and show it.
>>730538123>do we?No.>Do we now (post Unreal Engine 4) when everyone started being graphics whores?Unfortunately, probably, since it's functionally lost technology or impossible techniques in modern games. Meanwhile with ray/path/no-fps-tracing you just set a specific surface to be super reflective and then watch the fps counter go from 80 to 45 whenever it's rendered (always, because it's modern developers).
>>730542698I do hope going forward that every single game forces path tracing to be enabled
>>730542207That would be really impressive if the reflection changed if you shot different locations. But im willing to bet that anytime you shoot that mirror it breaks in the same exact way every time
>>730542762For what purpose?
>>730542810to upset the right people
>>730542571>>730541060Found it on the archive. A million polys...
>>730539051I can assure you, that rendering the same room twice at the same detail (after all, you only have to refeclt 3 walls, not 4), would tank the dps less than the rtx shit.
>>730542852Consumers? Devs will gets enable the newest DLSS version 5.5 now with fake fps boost WITHOUT hardware needed (it sucks really bad).
>>730542987>consumersno, crying fucks on /v/
>>730543110Ah yes... cutting your nose off to spite your face.
>>730543247no. not at all. Games should be made for top level hardware and should stop pandering to GTX , AMD and x060 series GPUs. It's time to leave low end behind and advance games. You don't hear people cry about not being able to play PS5 games on their PS4. Yet that happens on a daily basis here. People with PS4 tier computers whinging all day about how their new game doesn't run. I don't care. Fuck off. Buy something better
>>730543389So you're just a faggot that wants games to look the same as they did 5-10 years ago, but run objectively WAY worse for no real reason just because? Shit has plateaued but they've just replaced well made games with badly made ones.And people don't complain about not being able to play ps5 games on ps4's because ps5 has no games.
>>730543389I'm not entirely against what you're saying and I have a new graphics card, but modern games look like fucking ass bro look around you.
>>730538123No.Since the 6th generation you could do dynamic cubemaps.Although limited, you can also use planar reflections or static cubemaps, if the game is linear. Or just mirror the scene with lower resolution in specific rooms. Mostly how old games did.
>>730543549>games to look as they were 10 years ago. No silly. I want them to look good.
>>730543682which ones?
>>730543698So... games from 5 years ago. That ran better on hardware that's around 60% as strong as there is now.
>>730539051Rendering the scene on a very small room would not hinder the performance more than using Ray Tracing. The new Hitman games do that and it doesn't tank the performance.
>>730543814What's up. Do you want your junkbox to last forever? It's time to upgrade
>>730543881Ironically, I don't need to. Everything still runs. But for some reason... it runs worse than games than 5 years ago that looked the same or better. Curious.
>>730543938>everything still runs>if I turn off all the advanced graphicssure pedro
>>730543389I would agree with you, but we are not getting games that justify those requirements.
>>730544001but we would if they stopped pandering to shitboxes
>>730543994>Advanced graphicsSuch as? Developers not knowing how to do lighting or reflections anymore and turning on no-fps mode?
>>730543726Basically anything made on UE5. Expedition 33, Robocop, that new Halo remaster. Capcom's RE Engine with Dragon's Dogma 2 and Monster Hunter Wilds. Something I am looking forward to that looks fucking phenomenal is Crimson Desert, but that's probably actually going to run good.Maybe I should have specified games that are disproportionally demanding.
>>730544081are you a little slow? I literally said that games should force ray tracing on and if you can't run it then tough shit
>>730544029I don't think that's the only problem, anon. Companies are contracting people without proper software knowledge to do games with advanced graphics.
>>730544128I've only played 3-4 of those and they looked great. 1080p really isn't going to make games look good anon
>>730544229Oh so you're actually retarded, got it.
>>730544229Neither is 720p upscaled to 4k and then fakeframed to 120fps
>>730544282Post a screenshot from your own PC showing how bad the game looks for you
>>730544330it looks a lot better than 1080p anon
>>730544128There are decent looking modern games. But yeah the ones you've listed are games that are either just ugly or perform really poorly for the graphics they give you.
I would suggest not responding to ragebait.
>>730544128All of the games you mentioned suffer from huge flaws and have poor image quality.Shaders in UE5 and RE Engine (which uses UE as a basis for many things btw) suffer from shimmering, ghosting, noise, dithering and flickering, not to mention the over reliance on TAA to cover all it up (only makes the image blurrier).
>>730544425Yeah, that's my point. Look at Abiotic Factor, why does it look so much worse than a game from literally 20 years ago, yet require a monster PC to run at 120fps? And even then you're stuck with ugly, flickering lighting and absolutely comedic looking """reflections""".
>>730544679Damn, before searching for this game I knew it used UE5.I was not disappointed.
>>730544384What's the point? The flickering and artifacts won't show up in a still image, aren't as prominent in a recorded video, and the atrocious frame pacing won't be visible in a 60fps .webm.
>>730538123Just turn off Raytracing in the settings if you hate it this much
>>730544891the point is you say the games look really bad. I've played a few of the games and didn't think they looked bad. You should post the image you get of the game so I can see how bad they look for you as a comparison to what I see.
>>730539215Thats just a cube map
>>730544891don't bother, while denoising and anti-aliasing are getting better, they still leave behind outlines and ghostinglumen and raytracing have this gay effect where it looks all pixelated if poorly implemented, problem is that it's constantly poor and that's why they keep having to update itbecause they WANT it to be a one size fits all system with 0 input from the developer, everyone wants to use UE5 default settings for some fucked up reason
no
>>730544891Record a video and give us a link then
>>730545036They look exactly the same as your games. And as I stated, the issues I have with the visuals aren't possible to share in a screenshot. If you're not bothered by it, great I guess, but I value image stability and cohesion and all the problems are distracting to the point that the entire experience degrades to dogshit.
>>730544891is this bad to you?
>>730545378>They look exactly the same as your games.I don't get flickering. I doubt your games look like my games at all. If they did you wouldn't be complaining
>>730545191ghosting can never be fixed when people still use lcds
>>730545404No, it looks great in stills. The frame pacing fucks it though.
>>730545728yes, you need a PC upgrade, It even runs fine on console now
>>730545378Like I said, post a video showing it. Im not having the same issues on my end
>>730545478I think they do look exactly the same, you just wilfully ignore the problems. https://youtu.be/hSjbIM0iegYOr are you going to pretend those light flickers are intended and not completely unnatural nonsense the engine is farting out at random? Every single UE5 game has this problem. Look at Stalker 2 if you want to see a really egregious example. Or that typing battle royale that had a demo a while back, Final Sentence. When the guns go off, the muzzle flash lights up the room for a good two seconds like an incandescent lightbulb.
>>730545948I think he's lying. He hasn't even played any of those games because he can't run them. He won't post an image or video because it'd have to be low settings at 1080p to get 30fps
>>730545985>this unfinished game has issuesno shit retard
>>730538584More than half most of the time.
>>730538123>Select the mirror surface>Make it transparent with a optional clouding effect>Create a copy of the area based off what the player will be able to see within the mirror >Have a duplicate of the player model spawn in the mirror when the player enters that area>When the duplicate spawns in have the player secretly control both models >The duplicate mirrors the character actions within a room which presents as a reflectionThere no tracing required, and able to run fine on lower end hardware.
>>730545791nah, developers need to realize that shoveling these graphics to an audience that can't even run it, is retardeddumb niggers will seriously look at stuttering 30 fps, with terrible frametime, ghosting, pop-in, terrible quality LOD's and lights that take literal seconds to fade and call it good
>>730538123RDR2 has working mirrors that even reflected the streets outside (the barber shop mirrors). No fucking idea how Rockstar did it without raytracing.
>>730545986Why would someone lie on 4chan? Clearly he is taking a minute to easily prove what he's saying. Its so simple that anyone can do it, its so easy for him to just prove it
>>730546024>this finished game has issuesoh no
>>730546838I actually went to record some shitty Lumen lighting in Ninja Gaiden 2 Black but I forgot I fucking uninstalled it lmaoooo
>>730546967STALKER 2? Damn.
>>730546571I run it fine. Maybe you're the retarded one who thought they could run it on some Windows 98se laptop
>>730547125Well reinstall jt, its 90gbs so it should take more than a few minutes on a m.2
>subtract feature for performance gains>time passes>add feature back for worse performance than originallyThe future is looking bright boys
>>730538123it's the only way.
>>730538965what is this sorcery
>>730547485Nah, fuck that. I recorded some shitty slow-reacting Lumen lighting from Abiotic Factor instead. This is on max settings running at 260FPS. The best case scenario for Lumen because the sample rate is dependent on your frame rate.The only other UE5 game I have installed is Mechwarrior 5: Clans, but the Lumen issues aren't so prominent there because the scene lighting is almost entirely static. The only place you see artifacts typically is around repair bays, where the flashing lights look fucked.
My favorite trick:>We're gonna test out this RTX tech now>Remove ALL the baked-in lighting and manually shaded textures that used to be done to give high-performance fake lighting that still looked great>add RTX to bring the scene BACK up to the quality of those older games automatically, at massive cost to the player>toggle it on and off with screenshots now, to show what an "improvement" you made, completely forgetting that you still removed a ton of stuff from the RTX-off rendition in order to add RTX to it>sell game at even HIGHER price than before because you were lazy enough to do this offloading of processing onto the player's computer
>>730548204Oh, and I unfortunately didn't have my old save file to show off the artifacts you get when you place a light source next to a wall. You get these weird flickers that fade in and out.If you actually have a good PC yourself and a UE5 title ready to go, you should be able to find an example easily enough.
>>730538123>turn on raytracing>reflection still looks wrong
>>730548204Id hope you can run that at 260fps. Are you upset that the light fades out for a moment?
>>730539215>And the whole "lol u gotta render teh scene TWICE!!" meme just does not want to die, does it? That's literally how Planar Reflections do not work.that is exactly how planar reflections work. a second camera renders about as much as the first camera to get that reflection. of course you can get lucky with the camera angles so your second camera points in a direction with not much stuff in it. but then there should be stuff to reflect, otherwise you wouldn't need the technique in the first place. the most typical scenario for planar reflection is how Half Life 2 used it and in that context it does basically double what you render. hence the "reflect All" setting being one of the most expensive in any Source game.
>>730549070Can you?And yes, I am. It looks extremely ugly.
>>730548204>Abiotic Factor>260fps on ANY hardware
>>730549427I don't know what to tell you, man.
Oh and the reflections fucking look like THIS.
>>730549586Go to the log cabin homeworld and look around, the results will shock you
>>730546967this shit is a dealbreaker. I'd rather have clean graphics than get distracted by this firefly and ghosting shit.>>730548204this I honestly don't mind. so what if the bounce lighting lags a little. I'd rather have it than not have it. just pretend light moves slower in the game world than IRL. plenty of things don't look real in video games and we're fine with all of them but slower light ruins it? maybe it does for some but not for me.>>730542207>>730542804it's a basic ass normal map. if the engine supports normalmapped decals the texture can be placed anywhere on the mirror depending on where you shot it. it would probably look awkward if you shot the mirror multiple times and got the same pattern each time. in that case you could at least rotate the decal to hide its repetition or even have n variants to avoid repetition for the first n bullets.
>>730546967Bro, that's just radiation fucking up your lenses ;)
its 2026 and retarded tech illiterate uncs still think path tracing only adds reflections
>>730549683jesus, even a simple cubemap reflection would've looked better
>>730549750>this I honestly don't mindI wouldn't mind it myself if it only applied to the flashlight, but it also applies to any light flashes in the scene. Imagine you're shooting a machine gun and the muzzle flash lit the scene up for a full second instead of the 1 frame eye blaster it should be.>>730549694Aight, I'll check it out, you made me curious. I'll have to progress to get the hacker thing though.
>>730549683>game out of beta>you're still just a floating backpack in reflections
>>730545115first, the whole "that's just X" is never a valid reply to anything, cause if the result works, the method is irrelevant.second, it's not a cubemap cause the PS2 literally wasn't able to handle that
>>730550317You don't have to, one area isn't going to debunk your whole experience anyway. I'm honestly just surprised, one of the most common complaints I hear for the game is something like "I have a supercomputer from 2027 and this game runs like shit". I just kind of accept the poor performance as a price for having so many moving parts loaded and lit at the same time.
how does mirror know there's a guy behind the easel??
>>730550997Yeah I was just curious, waste of time anyway because I realized I'd have to do a lot more than just get the hacking device.It's all irrelevant regardless because my framerate was high in the area where I demoed the flashlight and that's all that matters.
>>730551229It's a mystery...
>>730541060>There's also the secondary cancer of GenZ "Blender generation" stepping into the work force, never having learned any real art theories.What does "art theories" encompass in this context? I want to avoid just blindly following tutorials as much as possible.>even with out RTX5090 and Ryzen 9800x3D systems, optimization and hand-crafted detailing is very desirable.Where would it be a good place to start learning about optimization?
>>730549815There are worse examples.
>>730538965we lost this technology unfortunately
>>730551229>>730551707Has science gone too far?
>>730552187>>730546967This is low precision that's all.
>>730551707holy fuck zoomers were a mistaket. zoomer
>>730538965i want to scream from the rooftops how terrible the 7th gen really was and how much damage it did to the gaming industry
>>730538965You don't get it, they had to have an entirely separate copy of the game being played by a child laborer matching your exact movements and streamed to you. It's simply impossible now.
>>730538123evidently not, because most ps1 games that had mirrors in them were completely fucking functionaleveryone today is just fucking moronic and incompetent and should not be rewarded with jobs
if you don't like working mirrors you eat lots of cum.
>Path tracing makes actual refelction possible so mirrors actually work like a real mirror instead of literally rendering the game twice like a cavemanWhy do we pretend to hate this technology? because you can't afford it?
>>730556675I hate it because no computer available today can run a path traced game at a reasonable frame rate without resorting to low resolution ray casting combined with upscaling. And by the time we can run them at native resolution, we'll probably have new games again that we can't.The loss in image clarity and stability makes the game uglier than the relative gain in visual fidelity from path tracing. And as such, it's not worth it.
>>730538123No, usually it's not that great
why does no one know what the term path tracing even mean? is this nvidia's fault or are you guys all retards?
>>730539051Well, why are the new games left unoptimized?
>>730557602People with the top of the line gpu are enjoying the tech just fine
>>730539051>>730538965I don't know why you think reflecting a living room would kill performance and making a room that was simply twice as big wouldn't.
>>730558162I am too, but most of the time it looks fucking ugly. I played through Cyberpunk with max graphics and psycho ray tracing and it was alright, DLSS was pretty fucking ugly but I could stomach it at 120fps.Path tracing though? Fuck no. The frame rate was okay but it has too many artifacts and too much noise no matter the settings. With a mod it was a little bit better but at that point I just took the extra frames instead.
>>730558420No.
>>730558537What game? >720p
Bro this is not a market based on need, you don't NEED video games at all you know
>>730538123Do we really need AMD 3D VCache for 3D? We did it without for decades.
>>730558593Probably Oblivion Remastered, which is hilarious considering what kind of a technical fucking mess that game is.
>>730556675You can turn on full path tracing in Cyberpunk 2077, yet your character is still a ghost (or vampire) when looking at reflective surfaces. Cyberpunk 2077's path tracing implementation is widely recognized to be the best in video games at the moment, and yet the immersion is completely broken (and thus making it pointless) because of that one problem.Also, shit is often grainy as fuck. Not a problem when simply rendering the game twice, which is nice and crisp just like real mirrors and not a problem if you account for it in your rendering budget.>>730557849Ray tracing = rays + rasterization (heavy requirements)Path tracing = only rays (extra heavy requirements)These terms were made up by the industry, we're only using them. Don't care what the terms mean to CGI fags, not related to video games.
this is what your path tracing rendered frame looks like before nvidia runs it's AI denoiser on top of itpath tracing is just blurry ray tracing that produces softer lighting at the cost of being 1000x slower
>>730558147Publishers ship it as soon the build is beatable. So they get money right now, not after +1 year
>>730558593>thinking I recorded this on 720pAre you actually dumb? Do you not know what site we're currently in?https://litter.catbox.moe/ab0k5w5i73ck4iod.mp4
>>730558859You can download a mod to let you see yourself in mirrors but uh... I'd suggest you don't and just accept your life as a vampire. It's less immersion breaking.
>>730558871And yet, despite your image, path tracing produces a more accurate simulation of light than ray tracing and that's just an objective fact.
>>730544679It's crazy. I played it some last year, it looks like its 30 years old but barely runs at 60 fps on my 3060 on all low 1080p
>>730558959
>>730559279
>>730559392
>>730559270I've actually noticed that UE5 games seem to run disproportionally badly on older GPUs. There doesn't seem to be any reason to, they just do. Other games didn't get as big of a relative boost from upgrading.
>>730550848>second, it's not a cubemap cause the PS2 literally wasn't able to handle thatPS2 couldn't do it in hardware but you could still do it in software. Many games did.
>>730559517>There doesn't seem to be any reason to, they just do.Usually that means they're doing something that is more efficient in new hardware than it is in older hardware.This was a very common occurrence in late 90s and early 2000s when there was a lot of changes to hardware. You'd have two games released the same time where for one performance would be comparable between two different gens of hardware while for the other one would have double the framerate on the newer hardware than the older hardware and it'd be because of something like a new way to do alpha textures that ran great on new hardware but like complete shit on last gen.
>>730560103You say that, but the only major thing is Lumen, and that's done in software in almost every game. You can toggle Hardware RT in some games to do HW Lumen instead but in my experience it's straight up broken in every game.
>>730560353>it's straight up broken in every game.How? It's worked for me before, my real pet peeve is how they made it something the dev has to manually enable, software Lumen looks like absolute dogshit and the hardware option should be user-configurable by default.
>>7305381236090 when so I can run this shit at 4k120hz without hallucinated pixels and frames???Please I have tons of money just GIVE ME THE GPU NOW
>>730549275Well yeah, i just wouldn't. Dude wtf is with people like you. How fucking entitled do you need to be to take issue with sometbing so fucking stupid. Here better yet, write the code to fix it and install a mod. Making a mod is free, anyone can do it
why would rendering a room twice "tank" the dps? would making it twice as big also tank it?
>>730564961If there was twice the stuff in it, sure
>>730559392>>730559459Why does everyone look bored and uninterested in a battle?
>>730538123>/v/ when mirrors in games don't have reflections>OMG THIS IS SO SHIT MUH UNCSLOP FROM 2005 HAD WORKING MIRRORS>/v/ when mirrors in games do have reflections>UGH IM TOO POOR TO HAVE THIS ENABLED! WHY AREN'T YOU MAKING IT WORK WITH MY GTX 680 AND I5-2500K AND 4GB RAM???
>>730565720Yes. Why indeed. Duke Nukem had working mirrors and it didn't need 15 TFLOPs computational power for it.
>>730546967>>730552187I hate this shit. Goddamn I hate it so much. Why? Why was this allowed? God I hate Epic Games so goddamn much.
>>730565989Cope broke third worlder.
>>730538123We don't but it is what it is.
>>730565563Because combat in anime is slop filler. Everyone wants to get back to walking through the woods and having cozy slice of life adventures.
>>730539051Those new games have absolutely no issue rendering 2 people and two small rooms. You'd know this if you played any of them, retard.
>>730549683Why even put mirrors in your map if you can't get them working?
>>730569345Same reason a knee high obstacle is insurmountable.
>>730538965>>730539051>>730558389since you have to render the pixel twice, which isnt a problem as long as the mirror is small on the screenbut the closer you get to it, the larger the number of pixels you have to rerender, which will not only cut your fps in half it will bloat vram usage in unpredictable way, possibly leading to a game crashthats why reflections need to be a universal solution, mostly for performance and game stability
>>730570063>since you have to render the pixel twice, which isnt a problem as long as the mirror is small on the screenMost of them aren't that smart about it and just used a fixed render resolution for reflections. The size of the mirror on the screen was irrelevant. Just the complexity of the scene mattered.
>>730538123In this case I think it could not be done because the game has a dynamic lighting system so you would have to duplicate the dynamic lighting or run a separate instance of a game with a different lighting implementation, right?
>>730570310render to texture at fixed resolution still requires you to render the scene againat that point it better to create a fake scene reflection with some baked cube map for background and only the foreground assets being real, which is exactly what game like uncharted 4 did
>>730543389fucking based.
>>730565720Can your card do physx? Because mine can do reflections.
>>730565989Wow dumbfuck, it's almost like it takes more computational power to render reflections of objects as graphical fidelity increases or something.
>>730556675Fuck you, I will commit to 4d physics rendering so I can then make a separate copy space dimension which is then overlaid over the player area and can only be seen through reflective surfaces. In spite of it all...You will still fucking kneel and tongue my anus begging for the piss filter with ray tracing.
It's funny how being a gamer originally meant pushing graphics and your hardware to its limit, even if earlier implementations had limitations. Ray tracing is the future, sorry poors. Sharing games from decades ago with hacked-in reflections is disingenuous because you can't render scenes like that twice anymore in modern engines since everything's changed with the techniques they use. Same reason you can't use FXAA for anti-aliasing. Lastly, I see Unreal Engine being the constant bogeyman in these threads, except it doesn't use hardware ray-tracing or path tracing. Lumen's noisy shit doesn't is only a poor imitation and shouldn't be used to discount the fundamental advantages of the tech itself, with things like light bouncing off surfaces with color, etc.
>>730572791>being a gamer originally meant pushing graphics and your hardware to its limitwhy are you pulling shit out of your ass? gamers were just people who had video games as a hobby, wanting to beta games without continues, discover all the secrets, set the high score on the machine, etc.
>>730538123We don't need ray tracing or path tracing or dlss or whatever other meme technology Nvitard is trying to push, I can't fucking believe you tard keep falling for their shit, it's the exact same shit as PhysX or hair works or plex. They have been doing this shit for 20 years now and you idiots keep falling for it.
>>730573150Should have clarified: PC gamers. There was a whole culture of getting the newest tech, overclocking hardware, trying novel/risky things to eke out more FPS, get lowest latency and output to the highest refresh rate. Yes, in the purest sense gaming is about gameplay, but then half of this board wouldn't constantly be full of threads about how coomable female characters are or their tit bounce physics.
>>730573535That was a sub-culture of PC gamers, not PC gamers in general. They used to call those people "PC modders" because they were the only ones who would modify shit. Most people just bought pre-builts and used them as they came.
>>730538123Lmao, previously you only needed ray tracing for relatively accure reflections™.
>>730543389Path tracing is one thing but games practically already are what you described. Games already look really really good these days with all the settings pumped up, and it requires a beefy gpu like you said. What does it matter if they include the option to make it look like shit
>>730538584Not with dlss 4.5
>>730538123>>730538965Are they taking out features in games and giving us a "solution"?
>>730574105pathtracing is multiple raytraces
>>730552187You're just running a low frame rate
>>730576619Nvidia doesn't make games.
>>730538123Interesting but no we don't need the absolute destruction of fps for this and no if you have a 5090 playing at 4k with everything at max this path tracing shit is going to destroy your fps.
>>730553176It's just trying to reuse previous frame samples. Here's my shitty implementation in Chrome integrated graphics
I understand that it is too demanding to render a game twice in a large space for modern games to have reflections in mirror surfaces. But they used to do it in small rooms, and I just don't understand why they don't do that anymore.
>>730577149
>>730577149Pretty sure this only happens when your card is damaged or corrupted a little bit but still functions. You will see a similar thing with classic Doom where the first thing to go on a dieing gpu is the seams of the skybox but your gpu can last for a very, very long time long after this happens.
>>730577256Maybe that could happen with a damaged card too but in this case it's by design.
>>730545642looks like shitItsuno you piece of shit
>>730556675
>>730538123There's still some games but does proper mirrors without the need the any ray tracing or path tracing, recent example i can remember was the Silent Hill 2 Remake.Another example although not really that recent but i did play recently on PC was The Last of Us Part 2, say what you want about the story or gameplay of that game but technical wise it truly is a marvel, i was baffled at how many mirror scenes there was in this game, And this was a PS4 game too? I even went to recheck if all the mirrors was a PS5/PC remaster addition or was it always there on PS4 and yeah it was all there on PS4 too.
>>730574326You can't advance too much because you need keep the game within a certain window of scale. For eg. You can't really run Cyberpunk on a GTX670. 15-20fps on lowest settings at 720p. Should they be cutting the game down so much to allow it? How much texture detail, NPC detail, city size would have to be cut down in order for it to work at a playable state?
>>730558537Too bad this game only looks good in certain scenarios
>>730539423the old school method is to just make a second room on the other sidethe newer school method is to make the mirror a portal that looks back in on the same room from the same place. You could also have a camera render to texture in the same wayyou don't need fucking pathtracing to handle what's already been solved and better
>>730578742>turns contrast up so high that daytime looks like night
>>730579442>you don't need fucking pathtracing to handle what's already been solved and betteryes you do. older methods don't calculate light sources in the room reflecting on the mirror or allow full 100% detail with correct shadows and shading. It's a party trick which barely does the basics. >that's all I needI don't care.
>>730579447It's taken from an HDR image so the colors are off here
>>730538965Rendering something twice probably costs less than running path tracing these days.
you should not be asking if we need thisyou should be asking why the hardware required to do this with no compromise isn't sub $500because it should beyou should not accept compromise
>>730579698>because it should beLooking forward to you becoming insanely rich by providing those low-cost GPUs to the world.
>>730538123It's cheaper than rendering the entire scene twice (this is what people ITT are unironically asking for, oblivious to what it would entail performance-wise) and solves basically every illumination issue in games instead of sticking 1000x bandaids everywhere like we used to.
In OPs example where it doesn't need to reflect the environment also, would it be THAT expensive to just place a second camera against surfaces like those, for just the player model within reasonable distance and project it to a texture w/ alpha channel included for the cutout?
>>730580692>rendering the entire scene twiceis it though? regardless you would end up doing ouroboros
>>730580692>meanwhile, on some nine year old UE3 game
>>730580692god i forgot how Eternal looks like it's made out of 50% rubber 50% pure glass, and nothing else
>>730580423it has been 6 years since the 20 series launchedwe should have significantly better performance across midrange cards by nowwhat we've seen is a deliberate kneecapping of capability so they can sell $2000 90 series, high-margin, cards instead
>>730580692latest DOOM was a step down people say in quality though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTrdeqMMMK0
>>730580846*Unless physics calculations being doubled is included in this it would just be another part of the map. Not nearly as big of a deal as he makes it out to be.
>>730580970We do have that. A 5060 is about as fast as a 2080ti, while costing less than a third of what the 2080ti did. And that's ignoring the huge amount of inflation since then. And it's using the MSRP, which was pretty hard to get for GPUs back when the 2080ti came out. Tech also doesn't just magically keep improving at the same rate forever. At some point you have pulled out everything there is out of current tech and minor improvements are all you're getting until the next major breakthrough. Which is a retarded thing to complain about, because all you're crying is that the GPU you bought stays on top for longer than it used to.
>>730581264>A 5060 is about as fast as a 2080ti, while costing less than a third of what the 2080ti did.And using about 100W less power
How did they ever do reflections on perfectly planar surfaces without 2025 compute capabilities? It's a total mystery.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nedohYSmXLY
>>730581395Neutral good and neutral evil are the same thing. You just changed the view frustum location.
>>730581395>neutral evilLmao reminds me of the Mafia 3 Mirrors
>>730581005I played it and no it wasn't. Not in graphical quality at least, people are just saying that because the hardware floor is much steeper this time around while the visual gains aren't generational. The gameplay is another story, Eternal's better there.
>>730581614So this is why he refused to go to the bathroom
>>730581264i'm suggesting to you that 3060 should have done thatthat we should have seen doubling of performance every generationthat we are not even close to diminishing returns because they simply refuse to put enough compute units and vram on the cards
>>730570063>bloat vram usage in unpredictable waynigger it's literally a room rendered twice. There are no new things loaded into VRAM, literally just a copy of what's already there
>>730545642Everything past the foreground is Xbox 360-tier.
>>730581727>that we should have seen doubling of performance every generationThat's never been a thing.>because they simply refuse to put enough compute units and vram on the cardsBecause it would make the cards prohibitively expensive. They did use to make cards like this for the professional industry and they were stupid costly.
>>730581727>that we should have seen doubling of performance every generationWhat makes you think we should have seen a doubling of performance every generation?
>>730581810*on my 1080p display
>>730581763maybe in a forward rendering pipeline you could do it in a simple way, fuck you gonna do in a deferred rendering one you smart ass?
>>730581861because i demand better™>>730581843my voodoo 2 was at least as twice as good as my voodoo 1
>>730541914I remember playing thorough Riddick with Directors Cut commentary, listening to all the small decisions that resulted in Riddick's movement feeling so immersive. They had to rig his first-person animations so that they looked good in third person as well, despite the game being 95% first person. Really clever stuff.
imagine not having a 'puter which can do this
>>730581921>fuck you gonna do in a deferred rendering one you smart ass?baked-in lighting and/or fewer light sources could work
>>730543994Why do modern hyperrealistic games run worse and look worse on medium, than older games on ultra?
>>730581982>my voodoo 2 was at least as twice as good as my voodoo 1That's because back then they weren't even coming close to pushing the limits with the hardware they released. You're talking about a card that didn't even have a heat sink. This is also why overclocking used to be a lot more significant in the old days compared to today where it's just something you flip on in software for a negligible performance improvement.
>>730582234>Why do modern hyperrealistic games run worse and look worse on medium, than older games on ultra?no they dont
>>730582260>no they dont>Literally doesn't even have functioning mirrorsLmao
>>730581395>memetracing>lawful goodare you even trying. real raytracing would knock frame rates to sub-1 FPS
>>730582328Here's a challenge for you.List the things older games do better than newer games without mentioning mirrors.
>>730582328Older games (late 2000s, entire 2010s) didn't have functioning mirrors even on ultra because they use screen-space reflections at most. If you're talking about even older games that used planar reflections or room duplication to create mirror effects, then yeah they had mirrors - but they also looked worse on every preset than modern games do.
>>730582434Better AI? Better game mechanics? Better balancing? Less monetization? More creative settings, characters, weapons and enemy designs?
>>730541539Shit, I really miss videogame progress
>>730582479>avoids mentioning graphics, the topic of the thread and the conversation
>>730582479So, in other words, you literally can't list a single thing.
>>730582557>>730582585Number of NPC's, larger maps, more physics oriented graphical design (destructibles, physics props, etc)Nigger you did see the Avowed vs Oblivion comparison, right?
>>730582246and i'm saying the gains for ray acceleration are just as easy right now; that performance at the top end i.e. the 90 series is what should be expected at the 1k mark. that the massive gulf that exists between the 90 cards and the rest of the lineup is entirely artificial. up until the dram crisis, you want to tell me the reason why the rest of the line up was so vram constrained was anything other than deliberate product differentiation? that we got a bizzaro world 3060ti and 3060 cards because of supply constraints?their excuses are lies. you should be getting more for your money; a lot more.
>>730538123No we need talented and not lazy devs like gen x>>730538965/thread
>>730582616>larger maps, more physics oriented graphical design (destructibles, physics props, etc)Funnily enough this has been improving in recent years. The absolute worst time for level size and physics were the 2010s because everything had to be baked in and performance was oriented towards weak consoles. Recent games have bigger levels with more enemies and more physics interactions.
>>730565720I remember when I loaded up Red Faction and the game told me I needed an RTX 5090 back in 2002, that was a fun time just to get working mirrors. Had to mortgage my house to lease a local CRAY supercomputer, still only got 30 FPS (fake-framed to 120 but with huge input latency).
>>730582727>Posts WEBM which retards in Gmod were pulling off back in 2007
>>730540694It's kino but less kino than 1 and painfully easy (although 1 was painfully bullshit so lose/lose there)
>>730582826Now use your head and ponder why games stopped doing that.
>>730543389You are a jew and need to shoot yourslef at the wallet
>>730582950Because developers are lazy as fuck and we are having an almost 2 decade long gaming drought of actual competency?
>high-end PC game>will reflect the world off someone's clothes if you have the GPU for it>still doesn't have working mirrors
>>730583164Should've turned the settings up to the highest and got an RTX 5090 then poorfag.
>>730583236They are on the highest.
>>730582998When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers.- Socrates
>>730583290No they aren't, you can get working mirrors if you can actually afford it. Why can't you get yours to work?Oh wait, I know why.
>>730583164>>730583236>>730583290The mirrors in Kerry's quest when he meets the fucktoys work but they didn't go back to every mirror. I think its because mirrors have to be "activated" like in the player apartment so none of them work like they should because LE FUTURE
>>730583375> I think its because mirrors have to be "activated" like in the player apartment so none of them work like they should because LE FUTUREExactly why are we allowing 2020's games to have less functional mirrors than the original Resident Evil?
>>730556675>We can do realtime what movie studios have don and do offline in monthsAre you retarded?
>>730558537That's not path tracing retard, not even raytracing light. It's lumen low settings and looks worst than 360 open world games
>>730556675>Why do we pretend to hate this technology? because you can't afford it?I think it's more of a case that it accomplishes the same thing that we could do back in 2000 when PC's rarely had heatsinks.
>>730577149That's pretty nice. Tried to do this on ue5 for a vfx but view matrix was bugged on Niagara.
>>730583006That's the response I expected, but no dev incompetence is not the answer.The main reason games dropped proper physics sometime after 7th gen consoles is weak console specs. They were shit at proper simulations of light and physics. That's why games turned into corridor shooters with purely baked effects, which meant static environments lest those effects would break. A large part of the audience was still using a PS3 with a CELL CPU or even an Xbox360 and the game would lose half its revenue if it alienated those people via poor FPS. Games were "well optimized" because a lot of cool effects were cut back and removed from videogames in order to ensure consolefags and poorfags don't throw a hissyfit and refuse to buy.Then the next gen of consoles came and even PC specs got better but at graphical complexity was starting to balloon with giant levels, open worlds, increase in overall asset fidelity, gimmicky shit like PhysX or tesselation or tressfx. Planar reflections mostly died out because graphics advanced past cardboard tier so copying a scene for a mirror became exponentially more expensive. So mirrors became a myth, light remained baked, and reflections were simulated via SSR. SSR and baked light meant any added any destructible environments or objects moved via physics interactions would not only make the consumers throw a fit because it runs poorly, but it would also look like shit.Developer competence is indeed getting worse over time but it's not just laziness or pajeets that made physics and mirrors disappear from games. It was mostly because of consoles and because consumers preferred very performant techniques that weren't compatible with true mirrors.
>>730583856>It's not lazy developers, it's lazy developersInterdasting redditspacer...
>>730583901Not at all what I wrote, but I expected nothing less from a subhuman like (You).
>>730583971Buy a more expensive GPU you fucking poser.
>>730582727This shit requires RT because?
>>730584013>completely unrelated responseConcession = accepted, my subhuman pen pal.
>>730584064Pay more.
>>730581921Forward clustered is better than deffered in every way
>>730584151If forward rendering is so great, why do all the developers use deferred rendering? fucking chud
Path tracing is based, individual RTX settings are not.
imagine not being able to run path tracing without DLSS and frame gen, lol https://youtu.be/XaTY52WgdiE
>>730584058>This shit requires RT because?It doesn't, if your too poor to run it, simply turn it off.
>>730538123>path tracing on
Can somebody post the Half Life 2 RTX where light takes a solid couple seconds to dissipate?
>>730584354>pls someone, please post that one bad example from the community modded game, pleeeease!
>>730584410Just post the webm you retard.
>>730584201Because it was better and easier to use 15 years ago. Cinematic post process basically making the workflow the same as visualization and film (free workers), also was more strict, fitting PBR so no one could fucked up shit as much as forward. In fact newer engines are full clustered forward because deferred is bloated and has poor performance by design, not to mention it can't do translucency.
>>730584201Lmao, no they don't. Doom is forward for example
>>730584439Sorry but I don't think you're right, everyone important in the business uses deferred so it's obvious what is superior.
>>730584426why don't you make the webm yourself, oh wait, yeah lol
>>730583856The whole argument comes down to your last sentence. It's all opinion.Are you okay with lower overall visual fidelity but a full range of realistic effects, or are you content with compromised image sharpness and stability to facilitate good graphics with missing effects but a RT bandaid?
>>730584491Doom is hybrid. It uses both deferred and forward.
>>730584439>not to mention it can't do translucency.Hasn't been true for years.
>>730545115>Thats just a cube mapIt's not. It's an animated planar reflection.
>>730584297>Yes,DOOM: The Dark Ages requires a ray-tracing capable GPU (like an RTX card) to run because its lighting and atmosphere systems are built around hardware ray tracing, making it a mandatory feature for the game's core visualsAnon are you retarded?
>>730580692Anon, you're posting webms where every surface, everything, is reflecting light in that scene, while all the other retarded boomer cucks are posting a single mirror that is rendered twice while NOTHING else in their shitty old games is reflecting anything at all, it's all completely flat except for that one specific mirror that is only in that one level in that one room. They're completely retarded and braindead, especially this guy >>730580921basedjacking over his visual diarrhea screen space reflections.
>>730584201The primary reason to use deferred rendering is because it allows for virtually unlimited lights (due to lighting being essentially a post process effect on deferred) compared to forward where you're hard limited to something like 8 lights max, even on modern GPUs.
>>730584249Any games worth a damn that support path tracing?
>>730584612I think RTX has turned into a cargo cult. I'm starting to think that anybody who keeps calling people poor for not liking Ray Tracing or Lumen has actually never seen it in action in person.
>>730584612I want to see more like this.
>>730584718RE9
>>730584748Why don't you like ray tracing?
>>730584572No? Can you prove it?>>730584496Already told you why, ad populum fallacy. >>730584583They literally switch to forward for translucency retarded
>>730584612>>730584748>DOOM: The Dark Ages requires a ray-tracing capable GPUI know its a tough pill to swallow but if you, 8 years after the first RTX cards launched, still dont have an RTX card, not even a modern AMD one, then you ARE a poorfag.
>>730584790>Doom (2016) The renderer was explicitly described by id Software as a "hybrid forward and deferred renderer". >Doom: The Dark Ages Utilizing the new id Tech 8 engine, the rendering pipeline has evolved further. It uses a visibility buffer, compute-based material dispatch, and deferred lighting as part of an advanced hybrid solution optimized for performance across platforms.
>>730584772Because it doesn't run at native resolution and requires denoising algorithms to function, leading to a temporally unstable image.
>>730584916here's a video of it running 1440p native >>730584282Can't you run it native?
>updates your 17 year old homebrew engine with features that jeetcoders deem "impossible"
>>730584717Cluster forward is even cheaper, it's what ue5 mega lights do
>>730584916Running RT at 1440p is possible at native resolution, sorry you fell for the 4k meme
>>730584848Impressive, very nice. Now let's see the sales numbers.
>>730584949No you retard, the raster render is native, the lighting looks like this>>730558871under the hood.
>>730538965this is just not possible today anymore it is secret technology and cannot be reproducedplease purchase a 5090
>>730549213>that is exactly how planar reflections work. a second camera renders about as much as the first camera to get that reflectionWrong again. This is exactly the sort of Nvidiacuck zoomer propaganda I was talking about.The classic planar reflection pipeline looks like this:>Reflect the camera across the mirror plane>Enable a clip plane so nothing behind the mirror renders>Render the scene only into a "texture">Draw the mirror surface using that textureAlready, you’re not rendering:>Anything behind the mirror>Anything outside the mirror’s FOV>Anything not flagged as “reflectable”Planar reflections do NOT require blindly re-rendering the entire scene.They need to only render what can appear in the "mirror", from a reflected camera's perspective.Often, they were also rendered at lower resolution and framerate, with more aggressive culling, simplified materials, and tight spatial limits.It's also a simple fact that the part of the screen the "mirror" surface covers also culls stuff on the main camera, meaning even in some extreme cases, like HL2's Water Hazard levels, you only get ~60% coverage of your entire screen realestate.This stuff was literally doable on 6th gen consoles, that had like 1/4000th the specs of a modern 9th gen poorfag console / budget gaming PC.Not to mention you can apply all the same optimization smoke and mirror tricks to the mirror reflection, such as temporal accumulation, FSR / DLSS upscaling and framegen, meaning you could easily drop the reflection's resolution to some silly 1% of your monitor's native output, and still make it look okay.The ONLY reason Planar stuff fell out of fashion for the most part is that AAA devs pushed 7th gen console toys too far, for way too long, meaning they had to start cutting corners, even when using Deferred Rendering.
>>730585049>it can't run natively>sees video of it running natively>"no you retard I didn't mean natively I meant something else" Hmm. not sure if you understand what the word retard actually means
>>730584249Those are pretty shitty NGLt. someone comparing them to real icicles
>>730584249what is it which is supposed to be bad in this image?
>>730551783>What does "art theories" encompass in this context?Everything related to traditional drawing and painting, plus some real deal cinematography as a spice.Blocking out shapes, perspective, anatomy, shading, color-theories, form language...In other words, a true artist does not choose a "tool" to deliver his vision, but uses any tool to recreate his ideas, by using the old and trusty rules.>Where would it be a good place to start learning about optimization?Depends on your own prior experience and specialty.If you're a noob, it's gonna be a tall climb.Code-monkeys can get a lot out of old iD Software's Doom and Quake source codes and documentations (ie. the Doom Bible). Shittons of modern tech still can be traced to those tech wizard's ideas.Artists should learn expressionism and minimalims. Study PS1-3 era game models and textures. PSP is my personal favourite sweetspot: a good mix of low poly without it looking like an N64 game, with great non-PBR texture work.You really, really do not need >10k triangles and 4K PBR texture set for every single prop.Both artists and coders have one share interest when it comes to optimization:Reduce DRAW CALLS, as much as possible.Atlas as much stuff as you can, and use instancing instead of "copies".
>>730584058Good physics don't require RT necessarily, but it does require some real-time illumination technique. And baked lighting (what /v/ loves) is visually incompatible with good physics.When you bake a game's lighting, the game you play doesn't actually have proper real time illumination. It has a mirage of it. The visual result of a light being emitted onto something is imprinted into the game's assets, the visual mirage of lighting is literally BAKED into a texture. It's like devs have a photo of their game world all lit up perfectly, then they print the necessry pieces of that photo right onto every wall, floor, and wooden post like slapping stickers on a model kit. Looks fine if you don't touch it.But shoot a piece of wood, and pieces of it fly everywhere. Then splinters fly everywhere, flipping to new angles the devs never photographed. Those chunks now look flat and dark like unpainted plastic with zero glow from nearby fires or lights. No real light hits them in-game, the wooden debris won't cast or receive proper shadows, it will look like the blown off chunks of wood don't participate in the game's illumination at all. Why? Because there's no actual real-time light, baked lighting is like fake stickers that don't update and is done by the devs before the game ships. Can't be done on the fly.A good real time illumination technique does not HAVE to be RT, there are other solutions like probes or SVOGI which work similarly, but it needs to work in real time and has to be able to cover all scenarios. This is why the two previous nuDooms with baked lighting had 100% static environments with basically no physics, and why the newer RT-only Doom has better physics than 99% of other games from the last few years.
>>730585026There's not a single game that uses RT that I can get a locked 60fps on at 1440p native, on a 5070. Always needing at least DLSS Quality to make ends meet if the graphical difference is enough to warrant it. It very rarely is in the games I've tried.
Because there's no more Animator, 3D Designer or Programer in Gaming industry, there's only "UE Operator" now. They just download asset, turn on RTX effect, turn on Fog effect, turn on weather effect on UE.
>>730539051poly counts were a bigger issue in the early 2000s than they are now. these mirrors didn't affect performance either way, it was the same as looking out a window >>730570063if youre talking about the old way of doing reflections this is 0% true. its literally just the game developers duplicating things in the game world and aligning them to be a mirror image. it's the same as rendering 2 rooms instead of 1. they don't do it anymore because it takes too much work.
>>730585472I figure most games not banking on RT/Lumen are just using a grid of light probes that start with a baked value, but update chunks of it in realtime as needed by the gameplay, such as fucking around with light source elements, or breaking a large group of objects such as in your webm. Things you can do over the period of a few frames so you don't hammer the CPU+GPU.
>>730585490DLSS was made so you could run ray tracing, now you're complaining because it's required? >5070lol who cares?
>>730538123No we don't but [they] want more money out of you so they create a problem and sell you the fix.
Thread is literally poors demanding that graphics stop advancing
>>730584426i don't know anon it doesn't look as bad as poorfags try to claim
>>730581614GOTOTHEBATHROOMYOU'RE SHITTING YOURSELF
>>730585398Nothing, Indy uses PT and looks great, >>730585342 is coping and won't be able to post better looking icicles from non PT games.
>>730585818>spark light still happens near instantly while the 'fire' lighting fades outThat seems more like the area was being lit by a scripted emitter that isn't set to fade out quickly, rather than the animated flame sprites
>>730586148ok. post what it looks like without ray tracing. Let's see which looks better
>>730584249I look forward to actually playing Indy when I have a GPU that can do it justice. I saw some footage of it on a 2070 and it was fucking sad with the 'blotchy' lighting it was stuck using to hit 60fps at 1440p.
>>730585259They RAY TRACED LIGHTING you fucking retarded luddite. It doesn't run at full res in anything.>>730577149This is what it looks like without the advanced denoisers built into modern graphics cards reconstructing the image.
>>730538123Good luck doing this with rasterization.
>>730585259https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAN5Mkqjhp4Here's another video you savannah ape. This is ray tracing. "Path tracing" looks even worse because it doesn't have the rasterized geometry to use as a backdrop and has to reconstruct the entire image from a (higher number) of cast rays.
>>730558871>this is what your path tracing rendered frame looks like before nvidia runs it's AI denoiser on top of itnVidia's OptiX denoiser is no fucking joke though, and I lean on it heavily for my Blender animation workflows.
>>730586290Why does the lighting look so splotchy?
>Do we REALLY need path tracing for mirrors in games?We need it for refractions.
>>730585731idk but others but i complain if my framerate dips below 150 and raytracing is really good at doing that even with like a high end gpu
>>730586264>>730584916>Because it doesn't run at native resolution>I didn't mean the game, I meant the rays aren't running at full resolution and require a denoiser just admit that you're a stinky poor rather than this pantomime that you don't run it because of a fucking denoiser, you knob
>>730586438>when I don't turn the filter on it looks noisyhave you considered using the filter?
>>730585472>But shoot a piece of wood, and pieces of it fly everywhere. Then splinters fly everywhere, flipping to new angles the devs never photographed. Those chunks now look flat and dark like unpainted plastic with zero glow from nearby fires or lights. No real light hits them in-game, the wooden debris won't cast or receive proper shadows, it will look like the blown off chunks of wood don't participate in the game's illumination at all.This but the other way around. Objects in games which aren't properly lit tend to glow glow up at high luminance rather than being too dark. Since it's the shadows and ambient occlusion you will first notice missing. When you rasterize something in a game engine, it's going to be lit by default unless you've added shadowed lights. Pic related, ray tracing breaks in Hogwarts Legacy depending on location and miniscule adjustments to angle. Notice the inappropriate highlights showing up on the character's face. You can see this in other games too, in Cyberpunk for instance, where some clutter/debris for some reason is missed by the GI and shows up full brightness in a shadowed area.
>>730586646Forgot pic
>>730586637Because the native image is imprecise and incomplete, even the filtered result is imperfect, leading to artifacts and distracting errors in the presented lighting. It just doesn't look good.
>>730585567>they don't do it anymore because it takes too much workWhy not just invert the room itself and have an NPC inside that copies your movement? You can place a transparent mush on the barrier to give it mirror look. Why is that too much work?
>>730586710>it doesn't look goodit looks a lot better than not running RT
>>730586504that isn't a mirror
>>730586786That's just like your opinion, pal. I don't think the visual improvement from RT is worth the loss in sharpness and clarity.Now if we could have perfectly temporally stable full resolution RT, then we're fucking talking.
>>730586504https://youtu.be/RGFheEHcoaM
>>730585472High IQ post. A rare sight on /v/.Crytek proved that you don't need baked lighting at all, even on 7th gen hardware.
>>730586931you don't think the visual improvement is worth it because you can't run it.
>>730586769thats what they do yeah>Why is that too much work?anything that isnt just the bare minimum is too much work when you dont care about the game youre making. the only reason we got those old mirrors was because 1) they were actually interested in making mirrors work or 2) they had some kind of kojima type auteur whipping them into doing it
>>730587008No I can run it just fine.See when you can actually experience something and try for yourself, you're allowed to critique it.
>>730587080>I can run it just fine on my RTX 2060 sure >you haven't experienced it yourselfI literally made the video of path tracing running natively in cyberpunkcarry on
>>730586931The problem with RT is you need your game built around it to reap the benefits, and any AAA is going to target the weak-ass RT capabilities of the Series X/PS5. With rare exception to games like CP2077/Indy which support a post-release full on path tracing mode that dramatically improves the lighting.
>>730543389I agree in the the sense that I want devs working on multithreading so we can have more complicated NPC AI and physics, and GPU accelerated destruction physics for different materials and fluid simulations. I don't like the modern trend of drag and drop features that look like smeared shit and add nothing to the game. Basically any time someone posts Cyberpunk and pretends it's amazing and justifies high end hardware, they're a retard who doesn't actually play games.
>>730587229who do people need to justify hardware to?
>>730544592>Shaders in UE5 and RE Engine (which uses UE as a basis for many things btw)Where did you pull this out of your ass? The tech illiterate third worlders are getting bolder and bolder with their shitposts.
>>730543389I have weak specs but you're 100% correct. Gaming is 50% held back by dogshit lazy developers who'll take advantage of any hardware/software improvement to become lazier with their work, but the other 50% is retards with Dell Optiplex systems from the Obama administration still pretending as if they're the main target audience for new games, then wondering why new games don't have great graphics.
>>730541914That looks neat, is this the Escape from Butcher Bay? Is the game good?
This is from a woke troon game by the way.
>>730587153Then how can you be so oblivious to its flaws? I'd have nothing bad to say about it if it actually had a clean image at all times.
>>730541060In case of SS4 it's more an issue of "we just bought a ton of high-poly assets from stores and couldn't be arsed to actually optimize them for the game".
>>730586527>why better grafix and tech advancements require better hardware GRRRRRAAAAAAthanks for proving his point
>>730587436Why aren't you mentioning the flaws of non-ray traced lighting? the poorly shaded areas, the lack of any form of global illumination, screenspace reflections and shadows etc. You're complaining because you struggle to run it and it feels better to claim you have such high standards in your games than it is to accept you just don't have the horsepower
>>730587365>Is the game good?yes
>>730587393see >>730584649
>>730541060>There's also the secondary cancer of GenZ "Blender generation" stepping into the work force,It's the problem of having artists that didn't have to deal with a pipeline to a game engine before, and because most of that shit is propriety or custom, there's never much you can do to prepare for it other than following some best practices if you can find them on the web.What's reasonable for one game's graphical make-up or target spec won't be for another. You can have an artist that's good at handling a AAA scene, but would struggle at getting shit running on a mobile platform due to vastly different techniques needed on the modeling, texturing, and material end.
>>730585567>if youre talking about the old way of doing reflections this is 0% true. its literally just the game developers duplicating things in the game world and aligning them to be a mirror image. it's the same as rendering 2 rooms instead of 1. they don't do it anymore because it takes too much work.Its not, the game dosnt care how many rooms there is on the screen, only how many pixels it has to render and how many times.What im talking about is a "real mirror" a situation where you first render the scene, then render the scene again from the mirrors perspective and overlay on the first render, but that means that for every pixel of the mirror, you render it twice. That can add up fast if you walk up close to the mirror, would be like going from 1080p to 1440p, your fps will crater.There are some gimmicks though, planar reflections, paralax corrected cube maps with lowe res render, forward rendering it as it goes so you render it once but at a bigger cost, etc.Anyway, reason devs dont do fake rooms is that it only works in some situations, you need room behind a mirror or a portal like surface to another place, its not an universal solution. Another reason is that it can be done only in forward rendering, this trick dosnt work in modern differed rending engine workflow since you can only render one surface once, also why transparencies are so ditherry and pixelated now, since they also dont work in new engine aproach.
>>730543389>Games should be made for top level hardware and should stop pandering to GTX , AMD and x060 series GPUs.They don't even run on that "top level hardware", man
>>730587598see >>730587587
>>730587787what games don't run?
>>730544679>why does it look so much worse than a game from literally 20 years ago, yet require a monster PC to run at 120fpsBecause the areas are a dozen times larger and there are dozens of NPCs/enemies and interactable items on screen at the same time, and there's global illumination for a bunch of lights sources that cast shadows on all those objects in real time. The game is low poly, but everything else is very "modern".
>>730587570Because that doesn't distract me since it's a static issue, not a temporal one. Whenever shadows or lights render in at a different rate from the rest of the scene, it looks awful. Whenever light on a character's face isn't aligned with the scene, it looks disgusting.Whatever, here are my specs. I played through Cyberpunk with Psycho RT, but couldn't do PT because I wanted 120fps. I tried playing at the 60-90 I got but there were too many visual errors to justify it.Now, I do use RT in any game that supports it, but it usually results in artifacts, so I'm not entirely supportive of the technology. The issue is that turning it off usually makes the game look like poopoo caca since it's intended to be kept on. Same thing with TAA causing fuck-ugly smearing but turning it off usually results in hair looking like floating spray paint.
>>730545404>is this bad to you?Yeah, people who play female arisen are trannies.
>>730587973well you bought AMD and expected to run ray tracing. You're not as clever as you think you are
>>730584649>basedjacking over his visual diarrhea screen space reflections.It's not SSR at all in that game's example. It mixes cube maps on animated surfaces that updated at half-framerate (the trains), with extra camera target renders for the flat floor/walls to do the 'reflections'. Did SSR even exist in the UE3 days?
>>730587975people who want to play as men are faggots
>>730588029What do you mean? It runs fine. I had Nvidia before and the visual quality hasn't changed at all. I'm just getting better frame rates.
>>730588086>it runs fineYou have been posting for the last 30 minutes telling me how bad it is for you. It doesn't run fine does it?
>>730588115It runs fine, it doesn't look fine.Whatever, I'm talking to somebody who plays with motion blur on, I should have expected this.
>>730538123If my laptop can't run it it's meme technology, ese
>>730556675sexy tummy
Poorfags lost
>>730588148>buys AMD GPU>"waaah waaah ray tracing looks bad">mention PC >"b-b-but my PC runs it fine"you dug a nice little hole for yourself didn't you. lol
>>730588204disgusting TXAA blur
>>730586501Too few rays being cast, also denoiser isn't good enough. Something like Ray Reconstruction typically fixes this
>>730588271it's a low resolution image
The guy who made working mirrors in games was killed off my nvidia chinks
>>730588204>game looks like an FMV now>also has the blur and compressed colour range of an FMVSerious question though, why the fuck are Capcom's modern engines afraid of colour range? Black simply doesn't exist, it's always a dark grey. Same for white, it's just a grey.
>>730588261You're not even keeping up with the conversation anymore you mud hut dweller.
>>730538123>you need nigger tracing for mirrors to workgrim
>>730588330dlss should be making up for it, since that's what it was made for.
>>730588261
>>730588353Because hard contrast is gay and soft contrast is modern and sleek.
>>730588353Because somebody told them that they had to run a cinematic LUT over the entire image to make it look "more like a movie", presenting the image with the flaws of a compressed digital signal like a movie being shown on television.
>>730557849Gamers easily fall for propaganda. They hear a new term and parrot it all over the place, without even knowing what it is.
>>730587973Use FSR4. Yeah it's a TAA-based technology but miles better than standard TAA.>>730588029AMD9000 cards are not much worse at raytracing than RTX5000 cards. If the RT gap between AMD6000 and RTX2000 was four tiers, the current gap is a single tier.
>>730588361>mud hut dwelleryou literally bought AMD and are crying about not running ray tracing.
>>730587080Just so you know, you're talking to a retarded, tech illiterate jeet who shitposts in every graphics thread.
>>730588501run the cyberpunk path tracing benchmark on it then. post the screenshot at the end with the fps and system spec
>>730538403Not lost. Mirrors used to just be a 1:1 mirror of the room being processed and as things became more and more complex it cost more to render the whole room so they stopped doing it to prevent framerate drop.
>>730588353Capcom just have an inherently awful sense of aesthetics nowadays, I don't know what's wrong with them. All of their games look so muted and ugly. At least the women are lookers.
>>730587272Silence, jeet.
>>730588501>the current gap is a single tier.It's still two tiers behind at minimum on any games that push path tracing, eg. Indy & CP2077.
>>730587973I can attest. I have a 9070 XT and can run Quake 2 RTX at a locked 120Hz at 1080p on the latest Linux drivers. Still looks like shit regardless.>Why would you play at 1080pAsk the game devs who insist that you upscale from even lower resolutions.
>>730588064Okay, tranny.
>>730588568I don't have an AMD9000 card lol, I have an RTX4000. But I keep up with this stuff and AMD9000's RT performance isn't really that far behind. The 9070XT only trails a bit behind the 5070Ti, whereas back in the day a 6700XT just completely shat itself while trying to run a raytracing workload that an RTX3070 could do easily.
>>730588501>the current gap is a single tier.Not even. The only problem with AMD currently is drivers, the Ray Reconstruction alternative also isn't shipped yet.And yeah, FSR is nice, you can even replace DLSS with it using Optiscaler. Still suffers from the same issues as DLSS does though, it's not fully stable even at native res/DLAA.
>>730588714>9950X3D vs 5800X3DWorthless test. Why compare GPUs with different CPUs?
>>730588691>AMD top card performs as good as last gen low-midrange nvidia awesome
>>730588714>Ray Tracing Psycho not path tracedlol
>>730588830And Nvidia's current gen equivalent card only performs about 10% better than its previous gen equivalent, while drawing more power and costing more. Awesome, isn't it?
>>730588520>Nvidiot has zero reading comprehensionChecks out.
>>730588827I don't know, ask the guy who made the benchmark. I didn't even notice.This one makes more sense.
>>730588901>it performs a bit less than the shit nvidia card lol
>>730588917you literally have a PC which is 50% as powerful as mine and you're calling me a mud hut dweller
>>730588691>5070 TI beat by the regular 4080Ouch.
>>730589006The entire 5000 series is a joke and Nvidia knows it, which is why they restricted 4x frame gen to it so they could pretend pic related was actually true.
>>730588974Paying the green tax is not the flex you think it is.
>>730586504That's not even optically correct.
>>730589072It sucks, since the only card reasonably worth it's MSRP was the 5070 TI in that series, or the 5090 if you had the dosh for it and didn't get hit with the 12VHPWR-on-fire lottery, and already didn't have a 4090 (which you likely already did if you had the money for it).Only saving grave is the 4080 cost more, but it is a case of getting what you pay for.
imagine having to play this on console settings
>>7305890065000 series is built on the same exact process node as 4000, TSMC couldn't made a new node in time. 5000 is basically just a clumsy SUPER refresh with some extra frame gen modes slapped on. A new node will be in 6000 though but the pricing will probably be fucked because of the DRAM shortage.
>>730589196Switch 2 game by the way.
>>730589196Don't worry, PS5 Pro's PISSER scaler will fix it!Every example of PSSR I've seen in games made it look worse than FSR3, and I already didn't like FSR3
>>730589074what is it then?
>>730588928>56/45 = 24%>$750/$600 = 25%AMD won.
>>730584748Lumen is good if you're doing dynamic lighting like for example day/night cycle. I mean performance is kinda shit, but that's usually the case with dynamic lighting.
>>730589253what's up with it?
>>730589253
>>730585472>But shoot a piece of wood, and pieces of it fly everywhere. Then splinters fly everywhere,Yeah, they fly everywhere, very rapidly. You know why that's important? Because RT (and every other accumulation based technique) is incompatible with fast moving objects and brief lighting changes.This is why there's no flickering neons or lightning strikes in Cyberpunk, this is why lighting striking 5 feet from you in Stalker 2 does not light up the environment and why light flashes like muzzle flash do not cast shadows.
>>7305892206070 will have 8GB of VRAM and cost $999, but it'll have 10x frame gen to make up for it!
>>730540435>mirror doesn't render mirror floor
>>730589561lol
>>730589309AMD is also faster in raster, especially at 4k. We'll see if they can make up the difference in RT once they get Radiance Caching online with their Redstone or whatever drivers.
>>730589309if that's how you buy a gpu then the GT1030 won
Imagine still shilling for a company directly responsible for all this shit that's happening.Goyvidia consoomers need to be publicly shamed.>>730589561Retard.
>ray tracing mirror thread turns into an AMD cope thread ha ha
>>730589705who is shilling?
>>730589262Maximizing the value of capital, achieved by carefully assessing the return of spending them on productsSure, you could also spend 100 grand on a Tesla Cybertruck. You'll still look like a fool.
>>730589779>buying a gpu is like spending 100k on a truckare they both unachievable dreams for you or something?
>>730589779>You'll still look like a fool.Who to?
>>730585472None of those barrels use RT, in fact nu doom uses RT probe base lighting, for which you don't need RT as you mentioned. Static lighting is used for non movable objects, every engine ever does that AND realtime for moving objects. There are hundreds of techniques to do that, but somehow now RT is the holy grail absolutely critical to do that (dark ages has mandatory RT, and every game forgot about balked lighting despite 99% of the scene being static). I just don't see the point, specially on games like this, just voxelize the movable objects and be done.
>>730589658Anon, you can't divide by zero.
>>730588271>>730588353>>730588440>>730588457>>730588578Poor. fags. lost.
>>730589869To anyone you brag about your purchases to.
>>730589990>everything reflects light the same way plastic doesbro this looks so fucking dogshit
>>730586290Nested render targets, easy and higher resolution than RT with no ghosting
>>730590000who bragged? You're the one slinging shit.
>>730590057>nooooooo wet surfaces arent reflectiveKEK go outside
>>730590152You asked. Are you retarded?
>>730589705Nvidia destroyed every code in every engine that made it possible to make mirrors in games?
>>730590194I'm asking who bragged about purchases. If nobody bragged then why the fuck mention it ?
>>730590162My man, you're the one who never went outside when you don't even know how surfaces like that are meant to reflect light. (pro tip: bricks don't look like that when wet)
YES
>same people who swear they arent poorfags and actually just hate rtx are the same ones crying about not being able to play nudoom because it requires a card that can handle RT meaning they're still running their 970s and 1070s
>>730541539Cool trick but it looks like shit and is far from a real mirror.
>>730589827Just because you like riding Musk dick doesn't mean everyone else envies you.I don't even like cars in general.>>730589869To anyone who isn't an investor.https://www.torquenews.com/18004/tesla-cybertruck-biggest-flop-decades-analyst-says-only-about-2000-sold-last-three-months
>>730590268Is this>>730588974not you? That's bragging about your purchases.
>>730589309>$600good luck finding an rx9070xt of that price in a world where reality reigns, not false advertising
>>730590274youre the same kind of retard that will claim puddles dont reflect like mirrors
>>730590346>calls someone a mud hut dweller first>"noo you can't respond to them because it's bragging"you're a literal poor throwing tantrums on the internet because you can't run the latest games
>>730590274I guess real life is just a lie now...
>>730590339autismo joins the conversation
>>730590469>original argument is the retard saying how good and realistic the game looks>point out it actually doesn't>seethes and copes and has no way to refute it>gets btfo'd>last resort is to just whip out the cancerfrog ract imageYou lost. I accept your concession.
>>730590512So you admit that you're bragging. You look like a fool.
>>730590617where did I brag? I said that my PC is twice as powerful as yours when you called me a third worlder.is this how you cope about having wasted your money on shit PC hardware?
>bricks dont reflect lightskek
>>730588204People keep telling me that DLSS4 and up (now DLSS 4.5) is good, but even in comparison shots and videos, I see plastic look on 4k DLSS that I don't see on native 1080p. I can't stand the plastic look. No one else sees it? A guy is literally describing how DLSS 4 is sharper and better and the video he has on shows the plastic.
>>730538123How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?
>>730589728>that compared to a hallway from a 6 year old VR game
>>730588204>>730588353Huh?That image has parts that are pitch black. Under the umbrella is literally 2,2,2 on the RGB scale.People here complain about shit that isn't true while looking at verifiable evidence that it isn't true.
>>730590864it truly is game breaking, look
>>730590864define "plastic look"
>>730590953Are you running some aggressive sharpen filter, or is that the game's own doing?
>>730590953What is this, DLSS4 vs. DLSS4.5?Also I think the word you're looking for is "waxy".
>>730538123No, but if there's headroom to do it, why not.
>>730591067the game. I don't recall adding sharpening. I just turned off blur and chromatic aberration
>>730591101DLSS 4 Quality vs Native 4k
>>730590994It's just one of those things you say when you want to complain about visuals but aren't able to qualify it properly.At one point it was a fairly accurate description of games like Doom 3 but now it doesn't mean anything.
>>730591186but i wanted him to be able to qualify it properly
It's amazing how every technology thread is basically poorfags not being able to accept they're poorfags
>>730590953Bottom is worse
>>730590953Damn, 100 fps difference? That is big yea
>>730590994Everything looks like it was made from plastic. Lines of various sizes are more uniform so everything gets almost like a 5% of cel shading look to it.
>>730588457It's ironic because modern movies look like shit compared to classic ones as well.
>>730590512>>730590693Tech illiterate jeet monkey detected
>>730591718>Lines of various sizes are more uniformso proper antialiasing and edge stability = everything looks too similar = bad?
>>730591810It's not even funny, because movies and tv series use UE5 for their CGI so it's a closed circle.
>>730590918RTKeks BTFO!
>>730543389>AMDMake Nvidia GPUs affordable and I will gladly buy them again.
>>730591940It's not proper. It's less natural, more "pixar" because information is lost. If you have 20 hair strands and 5 hair strands, you should see a clear difference, but DLSS averages them closer together, if that makes sense. It's just an example, I don't care about the specific math. My point is that some outlines should be more varied, like in real life. DLSS ruins this.
>>730591871>tech illiterate >"hey guys why does my amd do shit ray tracing?"what a retard
>>730592208Sorry jeet, but you're recognizable now. You're completely tech illiterate and shit up every single thread about graphics.
>>730592264>I bought AMD and discovered it can't do modern games ha ha that must sting considering you're a poorfag
>>730592137this just sounds like you're very used to the inherent limitations of lower resolutions and it looks weird to you when everything is more uniform and stable
>>730550848PS2 is super flexible, it was basically the first console to support real pixel shaders, since the VUs in the EE are very flexible. The xbox and GC gpus were more powerful but were basically just DX8 era pc gpus.
>>730592358>I bought AMDNope. Once again you're arguing with multiple people calling you a retard. I look forward to fewer and fewer people responding to you seriously. You're such a retarded shitskin that you think multiple light sources don't work in the Doom 3 engine because it doesn't have ray tracing. Don't think anyone's forgetting how retarded you are.
>>730592525He's right, DLSS works by upscaling a lower resolution image using jitter, algorithms and machine learning to reproduce an image as it "expects" it should look. The waxy look of DLSS is completely expected as it simply lacks information you would have at native res.DLAA is the only way to have all that information available, but it also has some issues since ideally you'd add a few extra pixels of overdraw to allow for jitter to "find" extra detail. DLAA might already work that way, I'm not sure.
You guys are the brownest in all of 4chan wowNo, your shitty laptop does not make you part of the "master race"
>>730592756The person you're replying to is a retard that will just insist that no one here has seen DLSS 4K so they don't understand how good it looks, and is also so dumb he thinks temporal accumulation is related to resolution.
>>730592920Temporal accumulation?
>>730592580>I bought a 500hz 1440p monitor but couldn't afford the GPU to push it ha ha
>>730590945KEKGive a monkey a wrench...
>>730593171Data over time, specifically with regards to lighting in modern games. What you see here.>>730546967
>>730593324>I'm a smelly tech illiterate jeet with a shitty monitor who thinks everyone pointing out I'm a retard is one personI posted this yesterday, which you ignored when I said I can see 4K DLSS just fine and that it looks worse than 1440p native.
>>730538965AW2 mirrors look like shit even with everything cranked up to maximum, no joke.
>>730592756the thing is that the "waxy" look he's referring to exists at 4K DLAA as well. so it's clearly not a product of upscaling artifacts.
>>730594110Is that because of TAA? FXAA?
>>7305941704k dlss is something to brag about
>>730594390It's Lumen in that case.
>>730584649the UE3 example is obviously not SSR as SSR would have huge holes in the reflections in this scene. the ground must use a planar reflection while some other stuff may use cubemaps. even considering SSR when looking at that screenshot disqualifies you as clueless.
>>730538965The most recent game I've seen with actual mirrortech was Arkham Knight, aaaaaaaaand its quarter-res, and even if it's juiced Unreal 3 base wasn't absolutely bursting at the seams, this is as good as it gets if you don't want this effect shaving 30%ish FPS off in modern titles
>>730594390In that case it's because of Lumen.>>730594393No it's not. It's still shit and only tech illiterate shitposting retards who don't actually play games (like you) think it looks better than 1440p native.
If it's the same ray tracing like in pragmata it should be pretty low impact.
>>730590953seems like most of the shot is correct and only animated parts (mostly the character, especially his reflective pieces like the shield, sword and helmet) are blurred. I thought DLSS fixed that a long time ago. maybe motion vectors are broken in this game?the vines are also blurred. do they animate with wind? it's interesting because the vines are not smooth (mirror-like) so they're very different from the armor pieces, yet also show blur.
