The actual difference between themeparks and what can be done in a sandbox is huge. People want to live in a world.
The gap between themeparks and sandboxes isn’t cosmetic -- it’s the difference between being entertained and being responsible.
Themeparks ask “what do you want to do next?” Sandboxes ask “what are you willing to risk?” The difference is enormous.
The real divide between themeparks and sandboxes isn’t content volume; it’s agency. One feeds players experiences; the other lets players create consequences.
Settle down, Chat-GPT.
Calling sandboxes “just another MMO style” misses the point. The design space isn’t slightly larger -- it’s an entirely different category of game.
Does WoW have the best class fantasy in gaming?How are DHs? Any reason to play them instead of feral or fmage?
>>732145362>Does WoW have the best class fantasy in gaming?It's so fun and diverse. It's the pinnacle of tab target until you start introducing more procs and similar, or combos.Tab target is good. Fight me.
>>732141520I want both
>>732146863You can't have both (and that's a good thing!). A sandbox can have leveling; a sandbox can have instancing -- but the dividing line of "sandbox" is just material repairs durability. It's the replayable content that brings together ores/bars, leathers, cloths, gems, and essences/dusts/etc. WoW could design good repair amounts that vastly increase playability, and variety of experiences, in a month or two.
>>732147959>gathering grindBotted>crafting/repairing gringBotted>essence/dust farmOh yeah, you gotta believe that's a Botted.
>>732148218Bots aren't going to supply 3M subscribers worth of materials.
I want an ARK MMO. Engage my post.ARK is not only one of the best survival crafting games, one of the most intense and realistic/immersive genres, it's one of the best games. It's Pokemon with guns and a flight suit.
>>732145362I really like how varied the classes, and even specs, are. Mana vs. energy, procs vs. build-and-burn -- it's all really good.
Full-loot PvP is a core requirement of a sandbox MMO.
>>732151217Can you make the argument from a design perspective?I would have full loot PvP, but I would have specific servers for it.
Name some true sandbox MMOs. The only ones I can think of are Wurm Online and Haven & Hearth.Games like Albion, OSRS, or EVE don’t really qualify as sandbox to me. Most content is instanced, full-loot PvP is optional and interaction with the open world is limited to harvesting static resource nodes.Give me a MMO that lets me plant a tree anywhere I want.
>>732149793>one of the most intense and realistic/immersive genresi tried ark once for a few hoursbuilt a hut and then beat a baby dino with a club until i was able to tame itvery realistic
Only Classic Plus can save the MMO genre
>>732141520Why cant we just make them hybrid.GW2 is booth an open world and theme-park MMO.
v0.3 is out today. Guilds are a thing now as its biggest feature plus a shared reliquary (like a player home) that all chars on the account can access, with an additional class, some new spells, etc.
>>732152101I don't want to call EVE a pure sandbox MMO because you cant just start playing and do whatever you want (it has 24 years of leveling), but I would call it a reasonably true sandbox in the sense that it doesn't have instances, you can own territory, and you can PvP anywhere and get the loot if you have an alt.
>>732152290>Only this themepark can save the genre that is saturated with themeparks and that would massively benefit from the RPG design that comes with gathering, crafting, and trading actually mattering so that the world actually matters.>Just grind for 200 hours, bro.
>>732152290>2026 WoW has the same developers as 2004 WoWNewfags say the darnedest things.
>>732152290wow's playerbase will ruin any chance it has of actually being good. The devs could make the greatest MMO of all time and the playerbase will ruin it
>>732152379Sandbox MMOs usually lean hard into PvP. PvP and PvE just don’t mix well. Arc Raiders friendly lobbies (though not an MMO) are a good example here. MMOs that chase a middle ground end up bland and appealing to neither PvP nor PvE players.GW2 is a meh MMO because it doesn't know what side it wants to be on.
>>732152379GW2 sucks lol
>>732153119No, community (skill expression, roleplay, and storyworthy character identity) is a game design problem. Players that are having fun lose themselves in immersion and a spirit of play. Motivation (fun) was solved in 1985. Pic related, extrinsic (getting things) motivation is far surpassed by intrinsic motivation.
>>732153909>Players that are having fun lose themselves in immersion and a spirit of play.the wow playerbase is incapable of this, because their idea of fun is not immersion and spirit of play. Their idea of fun is watching numbers go up. This is true for every version of wow that exists. You can say it's a design problem, but this problem did not exist back in 2004, which you would know if you were alive back then.
>>732141520We had that - it was called Star Wars Galaxies - it lost to WoW
>>732153119if you released an MMO only in Asia GEO and forced westerners to use vpn to play it you could cultivate a decent MMO user base - it's all the western faggots and women that ruin shit
>>732154358Saying that numbers going up is extremely rewarding ignores the psychology. WoW players aren't some special sort of human where it's possible ignoring intensity, variety:depth, wealth, and popularity. Economy, fun gameplay, and choice drive momentary storyworth/immersion, and the height of (objective) motivation is the height of fun.
nutriments nigger thread
>>732155880Do you feel special?
>>732155530>WoW players aren't some special sort of human where it's possible ignoring intensityyes they are.they average 2026 wow player is a monkey, not human.
>>732156721I haven't ever had a problem with other players, functionally or socially. Some guy doing low damage might get kicked, but it's been fun.
>>732154358wow retail is dominantly female brained and I'm genuinely grateful for it because they got fashion, 'cheevos, housing, customizing a mount, and a variety of other good stuff that just makes the game better that isn't just the sebum-retention brained "I'm a dps its all I have going for me I must raid brrrrr"
>>732155530>intensity, variety:depth, wealth, and popularity. Economy, fun gameplay, and choice drive momentary storyworth/immersionHow do we design these things into a game?
>>732141520That's why people playing open world survival crafters over MMOs
>>732141520>People want to live in a world.FFXI was the last food MMO
>>732152214If your only criticism is that it's not Arma, we have a good game.I think TTK could be a lot longer / more cartoony.
>>732157383that's because "other players" are set piecesthey are not real people and you dont see them as such. Wow players dont interact w/ the world, they dont immerse themselves, they grind as quickly and efficiently as possible to get to where they want to be, ignoring all obstacles including other players, and they will always travel the path of least resistance and encourage, if not demand, others to do the same. Wow's playerbase doesn't want a fucking mmo, they want a lobby based raid logger.
>>732162690>Appeal to absurdity.M+ and raids are approximately the only things to do. What do you expect?
>>732161464>galkan sausage+4
>Food.New World was so rewarding and fun.>Logging, Mining, Harvesting, Skinning, and Fishing; Smelting, Woodworking, Weaving, Leatherworking, and Stonecutting; Weaponsmithing, Armoring, Engineering, Jewelcrafting, Arcana, Furnishing, and Cooking.>Action combat.
A sandbox is the only contemporary way to have enough content and variety of activities to keep players happy.
>>732165521
>>732163541>It's +8 when you measure it from below
>>732164117People always talk about "what could you possibly do to improve creating"How do you feel about removing common game elements and mandate crafting professions in order to reproduce them. >No map unless you patron a cartographer >No clock unless you patron a horologist Etc etc
>>732167417I don't think professions should be limited, but having to make a clock and a map could be fun (specifically if you had a lore reason for them to persist through death).Any other examples?
>>732167706>Any other examples?I think of Dark Age of Camelot siege weapons as peak crafting. It's specific to the systems of the game it's in. It breaks the dynamic of cheap bulk item production...So I dunno, as I sit here and get ready to leave work....mounts? Rested experience systems?>FFXI style Beastmaster class that games animals and then a "crafting profession" that tames them into mounts>A profession that makes beds or household items but they all modify the rate at which you accumulate rested exp and the kinds of bonuses that rested state gives you What would you wanna see?
You niggas have no clue what a "sandbox" is.
>>732168060>It breaks the dynamic of cheap bulk item production...What do you mean?>What would you wanna see?Spaceships.
>>732168159I've come to define it as "has material durability".
>>732168275>What do you mean?I mean most mmo games implement their crafting professions in such a way that you are making hundreds of items. You go mine 1,000 herbs to make 200 potions This is as opposed to spending the same amount of time making 1 item that serves a much longer term purpose.
I miss when we had smalltike "MMO" releases to parse all the big ones. Unfortunately those types of games don't exist anymore because they all moved onto making Mobile Game garbage. I miss when OGPlanet existed and was making little games like Rumble Fighter or Lost Saga. I miss Brawl Busters. We got something similar like Rumble verse but it was mishandled and dropped like a sack of potatoes.I think the modern MMO gamer is just an entitled little faggot. They think every new release needs to somehow be twice as big and better then a game that's existed for over a decade. I'm personally excited for things like Chrono Odyssey and Vindictus 2 and sure they aren't flawless masterpieces to dethrone WoW or FF14 but do they really need to be? They're fun to play and a nice change of pace. Apogea for example is a pretty unique game in the modern space. A more traditional MMO made by an indie dev. I'm also waiting for MapleStory Classic but I'm sure Nexon will ruin it somehow.
chat gpt arguing with itself again?
>>732169002We need OGame 2: 1,000x Speed edition.
>>732169002This, I'm looking forward to new mmo's, not because I want it to be bigger and better then everything else that is out there and has been running for decades, but because I want that new experience, where everything is new, people are just starting out, and I can be part of the world as it gets more content and expansions. Modern WoW turns me the fuck off, not because I don't like wow, I played all the way until Cata, but because it just doesn't end, it has had about hundreds of different hands in the pie, trying to shape the game, the story, and the content around it into a bunch of different directions, to the point where wow to me is going to be this thing that is going to exist forever, and I'm just not looking for a MMO that lasts forever. I remember we used to talk about a wow2 back during cata, and that was exciting, however that's just never going to happen.
>>732169587Man, OGame on fast private servers is so fun. It's been reverse engineered to host with different assets; we should play it.
>>732147959Instancing is good for the game. Letting random players tag a mob is antithetical.
>>732169002As a long time mmo player, holy shit, nothing feels more spergy and 3world than WoW i know thats been said a million times but I just recently went from playing FF14 to wow MoP classic and wanted to run a dungeon. its like speedrun to the max no time, youre too slow. Vanilla Classic? Totally acceptable and eveyone is playing the game well. its night and day. I don't even dare to install the retail, but once I get the itch scratched its back to XIV, everyone acts human and is having a good time.
>>732174070What has better gameplay / class fantasy, FFXIV or WoW?
>>732170907I'm glad someone gets it. I think it's really what the genre is missing right now. Just smaller MMO-lite games that feel a bit fresh or new. Modern MMOs are just such an insane commitment for your average player. I miss when you could just jump into something simple like pic related. Its the reason why WoW Classic is so good. Just hop into it and play.Even with 800 hours in Lost Ark I launched it again last week and needed to relearn all the insane convoluted systems again just to fucking play the game. But hey they added Solo play for End-Game raiding now which is based. Also finally got around to playing FF14 for the first time and it's pretty good once I got past the first 10 hours of tutorials.
>>732174382I have no idea. Honestly, I love the FFXIV crew but someone needs to get in there and ramp up the class design and skill feel. WoW did it in Legion I think? They made skills feel sooo much more dynamic its really quite surprising. And with the Class Hall it really felt like you were embodying what you were playing. like leaping into combat and shattering the ground, good sound design. different casting animations and procs really just make stuff feel cooler to use. same class, just making stuff look and sound better makes so much more of a difference. FFXIV you can be flashy and cool but they just need to make some animations and camera work more dynamic. FF total owns dungeons and boss fights hands down, WoW has a sometimes surprising and nice overworld to explore. I dunno
>>732168159People unironically believe black desert is a sandbox mmo lol
>>732169002I genuinely wanted to like Chrono but it was fundamentally such a piece of shit game that I pretty much lost all interest after the beta. Beta test yada yada, we've been through this a million times and these games don't ever change much between alpha test to full release. Koreans need to start realizing that they don't actually have to reinvent the fucking wheel, the games they made in the early 2010s were perfectly serviceable and dare I say even really good as far as their combat systems, far better than the shit they're making now, outside of typical gookshit like p2w and horrid itemization. I think Lost Ark is probably gonna be the last MMORPG gooks will ever create that has good bones on it, because I can at least imagine it being a proper MMO in an ideal world instead of a game where you farm boss fights on 20 alts. I can't really do that for Chrono, not for Aion 2, not for Bellatores, probably not for Archeage 2 either.
>>732175406>They made skills feel sooo much more dynamicWhat classes?
>>732174382Ff14 is a final fantasy game first and an MMO game a distant second. Mind you it's a *pretty good* final fantasy game, but it's basically single player.WoW is much closer to Live Service Slop a la Destiny 2 or Marvel Rivals where you are grinding combat encounters with an admittedly moderately demanding execution requirement so that you can earn explicit loot rewards.Loot in Final Fantasy doesn't matter at all. Like there is an end game for people who want to pretend they're playing an MMO, but 99.9% of the game is story. WoW weaves it's (much less involved) narrative in a more breadth first fashion. In that sense, WoW feels more like a "world", albeit a very manufactured one.For "class fantasy" that depends on what you mean, and WoW is much closer to D&D / Tolkein fantasy. Whereas Final Fantasy, being Japanese, has different mythologies and imagery it draws from. So if you're bias towards western representation styles, I'd keep that in mind.Personally I like FF14 more, but I like Final Fantasy games in general so that's not surprising. I loved WoW from like 2004 to 2008 but it's a pretty bastardized thing by now
People return to old MMOs because thats what the genre is about. Nobody is going to stick around for long if you're trying to reinvent the genre in a way that removes its core principles. These include:>Forced or encouraged party play>Grind>Inconvenience; be it in leveling, travel or grouping>Trinity roles and builds
>>732176274Did/do you PvP?
>>732176304>Leveling.>Ever.WoW loses like 85% of new players by lvl 25.
>>732176594That's a good thing
>>732176517Ioved original Alterac Valley's meme power, I took Arena in BC very seriously. In FF14 I do nothing but AFK Frontline (though not anymore because I am finally all 100s). I know there is PvP and some people really like it, but it's not for me. Ballista was better. I just think people who play FF14 are A) deluding themselves, somewhat harmlessly, that what they're doing is a large or even important part of the game for the *vast* majority of the player base and B) should probably be playing a different game because other MMOs do PvP so much better. But I don't pay their subs, and they can do whatever makes em happy
>>732176304Nobody plays old MMOs theyre all dead
>>732176270demon hunter as the premier class of that expansion is really fun a different approach to tanking also which had cool mechanics. Warrior was the one i was specifically referencing. They make you feel much more impactful, as a Warrior should. Mage conjures bigger projectiles and procs instant casts really make you feel like a caster. Those are the main classes I played at that time. but this style was done for each of them. I think also Warlock was cool with Demonology, you were summoning a horde of imps and sacrificing them as bombs. just like hyperbole versions of what they used to be.
>>732176304>Trinity roles and buildsI still have a dream of an MMO that breaks class roles up not into healing/tank/damage but rather into combat/scouting/looting.
>>732177086How would that work?
sucking dick and FUCKING ANUS
>>732141520foxhole is the best mmo
>>732177086Wouldn't most people want to damage, tank or heal? Like, especially in PvP -- scouting could be OK (it's actually a dedicated playstyles in EVE, but they still need to be combat efficient if you want to have the best KO speed / not lose your scout), but why do you need a dedicated looter role? I think DPS-healer-tank allows everybody to do press-button glory.
is ashes still live or did they really shut it down?
Themeparks are like trying to keep up a mediocre thread that you didn't make. Sandboxes are like trying to keep up a thread that you made about your favorite game.
>>732178070>>732177605So I fully admit the challenge would be making all the roles equally engaging. The fantasy though is to make the world feel bigger by having different *feeling* games working together.Combat is easy, but I'll say FF11 slower combat is my preferred style. But the only thing that's really important is that it's small scale focused. Have it play like DMC or whatever your preference is. 1--3 per party of 4, with the "default party" being 2-1-1 double up on the damage.Scouting I envision emulating game mechanics from racing and platforming genres. Get a high vantage point, binoculars. Sprinting and execution demandent jumps to reach look outs that reveal better information. Which room the treasure has been moved to. Where the roaming guard packs are. They let the combat players navigate the dungeon while avoiding the most dangerous enemies and hasten their progress to the points of interest.Looting I envision as a support role, but is mostly aesthetic driven, but I completely believe could be executed on because *I* would play this class. I see it as inventories being very limited in size and this class having dramatically larger than the others. From traveling on foot looting corpses with a larger inventory side, to driving ox carts through the dungeon to load up the serious loot. This is like Bill the Pony. Sounds like a tough sell, I know, but if you load up dungeons with more treasure than can possibly be retrieved, you make 10xing your potential haul a more interesting question. Go a Death Stranding "balance your load while navigating rocky terrain" angle... I think this is doable.This is all with the complete image of a game that is 2 warriors Bash Bro-ing through a dungeon, while their scout on a ninja kite tells them when the treasure is being transported so they can hit it unguarded, while their chubby companion navigates the technical retrieval of all the loot.
>>732179124>Scout.Your description reminds me of that The Division gameplay video where they're all communicating as if it's a military mission. I do think it should be more engaging than a helicopter ride.>Loot.I really like how ARK does it. You're this weight peasant until you play on Genesis 2, or unlock for other maps, this Tek suit with infinite weight / 300 stacks of inventory, and flight. You can imagine the difference in carrying all of this metal while you're building a base.
>>732176594I concede that people have changed. Only boomers play oldschool style MMOs now. But theres still a market for it.
>>732152290From modern blizz? Fuck that.
MMO gameplay will never be good. Devs need to focus on making the world feel like a real place you are occupying.
I wish pso2 didn't get taken out back and shot in the fucking head. I wish XIV didn't remove any and all interesting job mechanics to cater to both turbo autist muh esport balance fags and turbo casuals that struggle in solo story mode content. I wish we got FF11-2 instead of a WoW clone. I wish DQX wasn't japan only.
>>732141520Just let it go unc
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>732184137There's nothing wrong with tab target.New World was pretty good. It was neat having a literal rifle for WPvP.
>>732186230>There's nothing wrong with tab target.
>>732186348WoW PvP is some of the best gameplay in gaming.
>>732186498>WoW PvP is some of the best gameplay in gaming.
>>732186552>Be rogue in MOP.>Dab on people.
The only real big feature MMOs ever had was being able to have massive amounts of players on one server back when most games could barely do more than 16. The genre needs to come up with something new if it wants any hope of surviving.Also, at this point, I think creating a virtual world that is separate from IRL is practically impossible. Large-scale RP just doesn't work, and no matter what you do you're going to have to deal with streamers and paypigs fucking everything up. Your best bet is probably to focus on something smaller scale with just a few friends, like a Minecraft world or something.
>>732188537>MMOs just need to lose the first MYeah, that'll bring in the players.People who want to play in a sandbox game already are. There's probably more people playing Rust right now than Ultima Online ever had online at once.I don't think there will be any kind of MMO revolution until you can literally go in VR and live a second life like the plot of Ready Player One.
>>732186498Wow pvp looks visually fuckin retarded with everyone hopping around in circles casting abilities like a bunch of mythical kangaroos. I've only ever seen my friend play arena and admittedly it just looked like a knowledge check game, but mechanically it seems pretty cool.
>>732167417No need to make it that convoluted. Just make things tradeable - want a map of a particular area, buy it from a player who leveled mapmaking and has been to the area in question (or learn the skill yourself). Need long-distance chat - get some kind of magical radio from a wizard player etcThe player should be encouraged to interact with the world, not menus and queues. Like, you can still have something like the LFG tool form WoW, but to use it, you'd need to go to a tavern and buy a drink, not click a button.
>No Pokemon MMO.It's not my favorite IP, but it would be a really cool world.What's your favorite IP?
>>732197747I really like Star Wars: The Clone Wars series. Exploring the planets is *really* cool. The voice acting is some of the best in the medium. The graphics are good. The characters and arcs are good (both Sith, and Jedi characters, villains, not-villains). It's a really amazing, immersive experience.I'm not sure SW TOR has anywhere near the same fantasy.
>>732141520Man it is amazing how slow this board has gotten that this can stay up near 24 hours
>>732198358>I'm not sure SW TOR has anywhere near the same fantasy.My problem is that it supposedly doesn't have anywhere near a fluid economy. I want early WoW farming, craft flipping, and auction house play.
>Have no friends>Play ff14>beat the msq and still have no friends>Play Wow>reach endgame and still have no friends>Play OSRS>200 hours in still no friends>Play GW2>Reach max lvl and still no friendsI really need a new mmo so I have a chance, all the current MMO communities are too entrenched to make any friends.>inb4 BUT I MADE FRIENDSDont bother replying to me you fucking retard kill yourself
I’ve recently been hit with a strong urge to play TBC classic since I’ve played so much WoW vanilla over the years (including classic). However, I know I’ll take up too much time and I’ve got to pack/move this month and have other stuff coming up. Such a shame.
>>732200731My most social moments / only friends on WoW were arena partners that wanted to Skype, and somebody I did RAF with. I haven't really played many MMOs, but I would say that if you enjoy WoW PvP, that arenas can be some of the most intense moments in the game.
>>732167417Only if they took the crafter a reasonably sandboxy amount of time to craft. Like a day per map, or a week per price of furniture, etc. can't let them flood the market with cheap maps.
>>732200731>I need a new mmo so I have a chanceNo, it's just you. You will never succeed with this mindset.If all you want is social companionship, go back to XIV, WoW, OSRS, GW2, or damn near any other one, slow down, and just chat 'n chill. If all you do is play the game, you won't find anyone because you're too busy ignoring the social features.
>>732149793They will never know the horror of running from raptors in loincloth through a dank jungle only to run into megalosaurus negating the need to worry about said raptors.
>>732202136Shut the fuck up pussy
>>732161464Taru rdm/nin here
this is why mmo pvp is garbage btw >>732186658morons think "good pvp" is "when I win pvp" and bad pvp is "when I lose pvp"Any pvp game where a player can do nothing but lose or run away because they have the "wrong" class and inherently don't have the abilities to contend is intrinsically bad pvp. Like a FPS where one player randomly is not allowed to have guns available.
I think really all some developer has to do is bring in all the best QOL improvements to the current mmos. Start with a small established world (1 continent). Dedicated classes, non of that "PLAY YOUR WAY" bs because i dont know why but people think they want that but it never ends up feeling like anything. just give them straight up classes. like 5 classic classes and 1 bizzaro class. unless they really know what theyre doing.then actually hire a concept artist/character designer. I hate seeing these mmo's these days or big fantasy IP's that are so boring as fuck to look at. Dark Souls ruined that for everyone and "Dark Fantasy" let everyone be non committal with design. all dumb shit aside, just look at WoW post Cata, design wise. some really cool looking stuff after they redid their engine. older stuff is cool of course but those things sort of existed before
>>732202761A better example would be if one player is locked to shotguns on a map with huge open spaces that can't be safely traversed.
>>732201072Cheap maps are just less accurate and sometiems completely wrong and certainly contain no information about secret tunnels or supply routes
>>732202761The fuck are you talking about? You can kill rogues that open on you with other classes
>>732202834One big issue with mapping in particular is that if there's no intrinsic benefit to using an in-game map, players will just make and use out-of-game maps instead.
>>732202884and how much of that "can" is actually skill expression and not one player having bigger numbers and a good class matchup?
>>732202893Out of game map won't track your location or give you a minimap. Out of game map also won't interact with other skills (something like tracking or treasure hunting) etc.
>>732202371The stat options are so good. It's just a basic survival RPG.>Level movement speed so you can reasonably ignore wild creatures.>Melee increases punch, club, sword, Tek Claw, and Tek Suit super punch damage.The free Tek Suit on Genesis 2 is *really* good. You can farm efficiently on land and in water, almost as good as with an industrial drill. Plus, you can fly.
>>732203034>track your locationIrrelevant.>give you a minimapSemi-relevant, but also you can just use a shitty one for a basic map + tracking.>interact with other skills.. like tracking or treasure huntingNow you're at least getting somewhere with the idea.
>>732151217I disagree. That drastically cuts down the amount of people who will play the game, and honestly no one wants to lose all the items they worked hard to obtain. Full loot PvP is fine for battleroyales and other short form games where everyone starts from nothing. For MMOs there has to be some other form of punishment. It can work for certain smaller areas like the wilderness in runescape, but the whole game having it will just least to no one playing of
>>732202761>morons think "good pvp" is "when I win pvp" and bad pvp is "when I lose pvp"No, I just really like the class fantasy. You don't do much damage, but you can definitely quick hit, or poison DOT, and if you get in trouble, you can just stealth, or (in MOP) you have an ability for infinite running mounted-speed.>>732203013Some classes counter other classes. That's game knowledge skill expression.
>>732203034Good maps + Riding skill = fast travel on your mount, better maps reduce risk of ambushes and shit.Good maps + Merchant skill = fast travel for (money) with same ambush risk mechanic.And in the same vein, both of the above + various craft skills can let you fast-travel to ore veins, logging sites, etc rather than just towns 'n cities.
>>732203456being forced to flee or lose because of a bad class match up you were locked in to at the beginning of the game with zero knowledge of the server's class distribution or meta is not skill expression.
If an MMO is gonna have partial/full-loot/XP steal PvP, every class needs to be PvP viable, otherwise those classes rapidly become irrelevant.If an MMO is PvM and has basic PvP mechanics, it's okay for classes to be imbalanced in PvP because the focus isn't on PvP.
>>732203450I think if you designed really good full loot PvP, maybe fast travel, and really lucrative "starter equipment" PvE, for those specific servers, you could convince a large, plausibly majority, percentage of players to join "that mode that everybody plays sometimes". I don't know if it would ever be everybody's always choice, but EVE does it really well, and I just don't think anybody is going to find many more intense experiences than betting your inventory. Every PvP matchup is this super weighted, every action, positioning, and D-scan check (to see if more people are coming on grid) matters, edge of your seat gameplay. You can get PvP'd anywhere, so the whole game is like that. PvE is this basic thing that makes you sit there on the edge of your seat, staring expectantly at the grid. So, EVE has full loot (with 50% destruction, which I don't think I would do), and it's really fun, maybe in the top 5 most objectively fun games.
>>732203780More importantly it needs to have limits on how many people can attack a character at once. If there's no limit it's just going to be gangs of autists going around killing everything in sight, which will lead to the game dying
>>732203780Full-loot PvP or bust. Keep your partial-loot RNG nonsense. You aren't winning over PvE babies with that bullshit.
>>732203645>Strategic disengages aren't peak strategy.I don't know what you mean. Variety in class fantasy means some classes are going to be more damage-y, healy, or tanky (I don't think anybody has an argument against trinity; maybe not in shooters or something). If a stealth class gets an uninterrupted opener on you (you didn't get the unstealth), you might have to leave.
>>732203450They didn't work hard to obtain it. They went to a marketplace and got a cheap loadout. Then they did some content to get more money and buy a better loadout. Rinse and repeat.
>>732200731Its your own fault
>>732203645That's what friends are for, other players are rarely far away. The classes all come with their own strengths and weaknesses. (at least they used to) the classes complete one another, that's how MMOs are supposed to work, you're not supposed to be a one man army like in singleplayer games.
>>732204257Which is exactly why I lumped the two together.
>>732204524Are you thinking of a non-pve MMO? I would like there to be dungeons and even raids. Who would take their rare gear out if they could lose it to some ganksquad?
>>732141520The difference between themeparks and sandboxes is the former actually has content and doesn't expect the playerbase to pull miracles from their assholes.
>>732203034This dude gets it
>>732205116>Just level for 100 hours.>Just M+ all day, every day.What is not obvious about how linear, repetitive, and few activity that themepark gameplay is? Momentary storyworth is the most important aspect of games.
>b-but gankersPvE babies always default to victimhood. They bring the best gear into PvP areas and then cry instead of fighting back.Actual PvP sandbox MMOs (EVE, Albion) aren’t padded out with PvE nonsense. You play for the PvP.
>>732205417PvP are the most popular and hours played games. See SteamCharts.
>>732205372>Momentary storyworth is the most important aspect of gamesSo the only thing of substance in themepark MMOs is also the only thing of substance in games overall?
>>732205602You can say "I batlled monsters all day" if you can actually stomach M+ all day, but it's not living in a world.
FF17 has to be an mmo.>at least cyberpunk/steampunk>has to be brutal>scaleable engine They’re the only ones left who could do it.
>>732205985As long as the combat is like ff7 rebirth or ff13? i think it was 13... the once with lucis as a city and nox.
>>732200731There is literally nothing and nobody worth your time in that place, you are trying to befriend the digital equal to the ones who hang around gas stations at 10pm because they have nothing going on for them. Cherish your already existing memories with the genre you made, don't try to reignite it. Every time someone, even a dev tries to rekindle that living world and people, pre pozzie WoW feeling ends up in a failure for a reason.If I logged in and saw the same exact guy who I met at 2007 in game, he would be either a tranny or a fat idiot whose life only will last as long as his parents are alive.
>>732206019Thats XVXIII is Lightning
>>732205417There are tons on PvP sandbox MMOs it seems, what are you even here crying about?
>>732206503A game can be sandboxy and not be a sandbox. WPvP doesn't make it a sandbox.
>>732203181>IrrelevantOnly if you're showing the players position only. Remember if youre building a game from the ground up you can include supporting systems. Have over world zones full of events and track those with an in game map.>Orcs move treasure between two camps at a random time every day and a map of sufficiently quality will display the time they'll do it at and the route they'll take>Crimes are committed and the scenes are marked on a high enough quality map, opening quests that can only be acquired via a high quality mapEtc etc>>732203181>Semi-relevantSame thing. Expand the concept. Be able to refocus the minimap on areas that aren't the player for remote updates on micro regions. Check exactly what NPCa are in town that day or what shop prices are or something. Maps are just "information about your surroundings" so anything that hits that could be incorporated into the system.>>732203457Good thoughts here. I'm personally not a fan of easy fast travel, but Merchant Maps that tell you what prices are in different areas or Miner Maps that show you where nodes are, and gives you warnings in for form of "rumor" markers as to when rare ore veins are going to be available would definitely be a used feature.
>>732205417>They bring the best gear into PvP areas and then cry instead of fighting back.>PvE gear has not PvP stats>PvE builds are terrible for PvP>PvE players don't like being forced into fights they cannot winGee I wonder why
>>732146740tab target is only the best, because of the inherent limitations of internet speeds. Even with our worldwide fibre-optic connections, manually aiming an aoe attack on the ground is always a huge pain and you will usually miss a moving player because of the delays+lag.Stick with tab target because its simply easier to code and work with.
>>732200731>have no online friends>play XIV in 2021>make some friends>form an FC>still talk to them daily on discord 5 years later even though we're mostly unsubbed>even met some of them IRL
>>732206503>>732205489None of the games atthe top of Steam Charts are actual MMORPGs (Rust, PUBG, Arc Raiders) When an MMORPG focuses on PvP, theme-park players who were ganked once in WoW come out of the woodwork to harass developers into removing PvP.New Worlds for example.
>>732207360PvE gear is a themepark thing.
>>732208192Didn't know EVE was a themepark.
>>732208120>t. School shooter mentality griefer seethes that the only games he has enough skill to grief others in 24/7 are dead and nobody wants to be farmed by him for fun.You have half a point but i can see right through your cancerous rhetoric.
>>732208192What? EverQuest absolutely had gear that was appropriate for doing damage in a group that was not good for PvP because it had no resistances or vigor.
>>732189883You're still going to be just as poor and powerless in the virtual world as you are in the real world. There's too much money to be made off of swipers for devs to not cater to them. The real world and the internet are inseparable at this point; there will be no point in escaping to a virtual world because it will just be an extension of the real world.
>>732208120Massively more players playing PvP games should convert to an MMO, probably moreso because of the mediocrity of PvE servers.
>>732189883Making a living world is easy. Designing and advertising objective quality would dab on games like WoW. It's not obvious what you could do with a fantasy game that would capture the shooter audience, but maybe they would play because it's vastly better than lobby queueing over and over again, and I think MOBA players would play.
>>732141520So why are there no indie MMORPGs?People are doing indie multiplayer games all the time, can't you just start on a small scale and go bigger if it gets traction?Does it really need a billion USD in investment just to get a server running some shitty multiplayer rpg?
>>732141520i finally quit runescape 3 a few days ago.it's over. i won.now it's time to start playing osrs.
>>732208774How many games do you carebears have to kill before you realize your ideals will never work long term?
>>732212881Neither does yours considering every pvp mmo outside of two legacy ones are dead and buried.
>>732212543There's a bunch of indie MMOs, but they all fail.And then you have 1 man projects like https://highspell.com/ going for 6 years now.The big issue with indie MMOs, is they always release too early and never prep for the future, which is why they run out of money and content, within a year.Hopefully AoC has been a nice wake-up call for people that the current MMO framework needs buried and rethought.
>>732213013What A+ sandbox MMO besides Albion has released in the last 20 years?
>>732213287>sandboxes were never really triedclassic
>>732202834It needs to take an actual amount of time for it to have any worth. Otherwise a max level crafter will just shit out high quality maps for an hour a day. Either that or they should only capture conditions at the time of creation, not auto updating.
>>732213287uhhh trove? does that count?
>>732213625>Craft from a vantage point and only terrain in your literally field of view will be added to the map you're crafting. How much detail is recorded is a function of skill level.>Can only make one at a timeMake em run around the zone for every map they make and sketch detail from high ground like actual cartographers. I would play this class 100%
>>732212543There are (or were) a ton of indie MMORPGs, they were just browser games where you mostly navigated through menus and waited for energy (or some variant of it) to recharge so you could do shit. If you're talking about the type of MMO where you actually run around with a character then it's not a very indie friendly genre, since you need to develop good, optimized and scalable server and database architecture, a client, server-client communications, secure it from hackers on top of just developing content for the game.
>>732141520Apogea looks pretty promising (assuming you aren't one of those graphics fags). The game is fucking terrible but the gameplay is great. Reminds me of OSRS + Tibia.
>>732215382>The game is fucking terrible but the gameplay is greathow does this work?
>>732215293so basically when you need to slap on a 3D walking sim on top of your network code people just shit the bed and suddenly it's not doable
>>732215615>>732215382oops meant graphics
>>732207519absolute nonsensical drivel do you not know how shooter games work? mobas?
>>732215703It's very doable if you have funding and an experienced dev team, which is usually the opposite of what indie game dev is like.
>>732216162Neither need to account for more than a single instanced map.On that note slow tab target combat is much better incentivize socialization, when you have time to actually type even during combat.
problem: wikis and online guides have ruined the genresolution: periodically randomize the maps and dungeonsproblem: dungeon queues will always be too longsolution: focus on adding world bosses
>>732216518>typingNobody does that anymore. Discord is mandatory to join guilds.
>>732186348Anyone who complains about tab targeting doesn't actually want to play MMOs. I don't mean, they don't want to play contemporary MMO slop. I mean, conceptually, they don't even like the idea of MMOs and they're lying to themselves while having no fucking clue what they actually want
>>732216768Any guild that has mandatory discord requirement fucking suck and you should avoid it at all costs.
>>732216745>world boss is downwat nou?
>>732216809>people think tab-targeting is all there can beReminder we had networked projectiles in the 1990shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asheron%27s_Call
>>732216946Guilds that don’t use Discord usually turn into anti social solo-player farms. Nobody organizes group content so nothing ever gets off the ground.
>>732216518>Neither need to account for more than a single instanced map huh fucking BR maps are as big as some MMO zones >On that note slow tab target combat is much better incentivize socialization, when you have time to actually type even during combat.you're typing about global cooldown, which has nothing to do with tab targeting
>>732217012It's not that it's all there can be. It's that every game that has tries to do non-tab target has fucking blown chunks and suffered from repetitive and boring encounter design.
>>732145362no, that would be FFXI's Beastmaster. I'd pay $80 for a single player game thats basically lvling Bst from 1 to 75. Its so completely unique in how it plays, the difficulty and challenges plus the tools available to you via subjobs, without even getting into using Bst as a subjob.
>>732217243That can be said about every modern mmo encounter design, it all boils down to dodging colored circles.
>>732217012Everyone who's played MMOs over the years knows we have options other than tab targeting and that it isn't a design limitation. Everyone who's played MMOs over the years knows that everything that isn't tab targeting has always been shit.Tab targeting itself survived in MMOs because it's functional. A lot of the ideas on how to improve MMO combat don't work in practice, most of them don't even work in theory if you have any familiarity with the genre. It reduces the skill floor to basically nothing so that the game is accessible, but leaves a lot of design space to craft a potential skill ceiling. It's extremely scalable so that you can make it function in duels, but it's still easy to parse and operate in massive settings where you have hundreds of players fighting at once. It lets people play into their character fantasy easily without being checked by playstyle issues.There're a ton of problems with MMOs but tab targeting isn't one of them. It's a social genre and the combat system contributes to that.
>>732216989You get the ToD so you can claim the next one
I think the only way an MMO focused on sandbox/economy elements works kind of requires periodic wipes.That said I would love an honest to God attempt at doing a Sword Art Online inspired Albion MMO where you're spawned in with the goal of clearing an intense 100 floor dungeon tower with respawning floor bosses. Server wipes a week or so after the floor 100 boss is cleared to restart from scratch.Could encourage guilds based on progging new floors. Guilds focused on making potions/gear to sell to the prog groups. Different guilds would fight over being the central farmers for different resources on different floors. You could spend one server wpe hard-core raiding the entire time, and then the next chilling out and RPing with idiots doing basic market stuff, then a third reset getting I to a competitive farming guild that will get into frequent PvP scuffles over their territory.This game will neve exist, but it's how I imagine a true Sandbox MMO to be designed.
>>732217791>where you're spawned in with the goal of clearing an intense 100 floor dungeon tower with respawning floor bosses. Server wipes a week or so after the floor 100 boss is cleared to restart from scratch.I'm not familiar with Sword Art Online but that sounds like a pretty strong premise for a real MMO
>>732217791Approximately nobody wants to have their stuff wiped every week.
>>732218146the idea was people were stuck in the game until they cleared it, and then the dev nuked the game and sent everyone out.an MMO with the idea of the big ending being a regular thing is contradictory to this idea. So you'd probably want something where each "clear" just leads to a new layer and a new world.
I don't want a sandbox MMO. I want a better theme park. There's a lot of shit I see in other genres that I'm confused aren't utilized more in MMOs.Like if I were going to design an MMO, I'd do something like mythic plus, but honestly much closer to all the fucking roguelites out there right now and just have weekly challenges on every dungeon. They'd all have modifiers every week and a leader board for who clears them first, who clears them fastest, shit like that. Maybe even things like class composition requirements.Then I'd steal from gachas and have a low effort event every two weeks. Like an unvoiced quest line that only uses existing assets and gives you cosmetics at the end. The gameplay would probably just be collecting points from preexisting content to collect rewards.
>>732212543>why are there no indie mmorpg?Why u gotta hurt me in the childhood? Anyways, due to limitations they mostly end up as online shop mall and dress up games and never do anything complex that the players want from big boy mmos.
>>732141520Im typing this on my phone while shitting at work, ignore typos.MMOs are fine. There are dozens that still get updates. No MMO has ever pushed the boundaries of gameplay design. They are social spaces first and games second. Some are better at socializing like Maplestory 2 or Everquest.The trick to finding a good MMO isnt finding one with the best gameplay, least p2w, fastest content, etcIts finding one that has people you like to play with. My favorite memories after 20+ uears with the genre are ones where Im just hanging with buds. We might be grinding in BDO, exploring in Everquest where we shouldnt be, ganking people in Archeage for trade packs, or making music in Mabinogi. It doesnt matter what we're doing we are doing it as friends.Its anime bullshit but its true. Now an argument you could make is that other games can do this noe, and thats true. Getting on a game like Apex or Hytale and chstting over discord can fulfill the a very similar hole in life. But for me having a world to live in with strangers ane changes makes it better.I like MMOs because i will get stopped by someone asking for help, or commenting on my gear, or asking to be fucking curb stompped. What i mean to say is go play some old MMOs. Go join that MMOadventure thing on /vm/, go play some pservers, go see what is happening in GW1, go try some older titles that lack millions of players. When you do these things go all out, treat it like an actual new MMO. Spend time, talk to people, engage with things people have made like guides and art. You will find a spot you belong, you will enjoy the game, you will be happy. And you wont be chasing a dragon thay doesnt need to exist.Now im going to wipe my ass and not flush cause fuck my coworkers stupod cunts enjoy my cornshits.
>>732218242No one said the tower was going to cleared in a single day. The balance (with maybe some artificial time gates who knows) would be for it take a few months to clear the tower. In SAO it took them over 2 years to clear IIRC, though they also had to go slower because of fear of permanent.If people will play month long Rust wipes, I think an MMO intentionally balanced around 2-4 month wipes would be reasonable.
>>732218242Most MMO players don't want their stuff wiped EVER. That's the biggest reason I see from people who refuse to try private servers or non-WoW or FFXIV games.
Personally I enjoy MMOs when I just stop caring about p2w crap.I play BDO and PSO2 NGS regularly both like 30+ hours a week and I've spent a total of maybe $100 over 10 years between the two of them.They aren't perfect but they are fun and home.I don't invest enough time into one single game to beat no lifers anyways so who cares if some faggot with money funds the servers.
>>732218372Collectathons aren't nearly as motivational as a dynamic world.
>>732218996This is the difference that previous people pointed out about theme park versus sandbox design. Theme park will never punish you and let you collect things forever and ever pushing you to the next shiny bright attraction.Sandbox allows for real encounters and emergent gameplay, but introduces concepts like consequences and scarcity.
Reminder that Mabinogi is a 20 year old fantasy psuedo sandbox MMO and is getting a full remake with all your progress carrying over to the new version of the game.Classless game design allowing you to mix and match skills, pet taming, music making, mini games like among us build in, crafting, gathering, secret items that only 5 people ever have obtained, fashion shows, jousting, multiple main story quests, raids, dungeons, commerce, artifact hunting, etc, etc
>>732219558I'm waiting for the graphics update to jump inThe music is sovl
I've come to appreciate dead MMOs because there are no BRs to ruin the experience.
>>732219558>anon says full remake >youtube guy says UE update so which is it
>>732141520>People want to live in a world.People don't want to live in a fake, fleeting and ephemeral world where nothing matters though.
>>732141520>People want to live in a worldbut the developers and investors don't understand what a world isthey also hate video games so they don't know what should be in that world even if they try
No one has the money except Chinese gachaslop companies.
>>732219558They're ruining it with Unreal slop and trying to make the game play more like FF14. Fuck off.
>>732208120open world mmo pvp sucks because-numbers based, not skill basedwhich results in-pvper only engage in fights they think they will win, instead of attacking all comersThe way around this is to make pvp use a matching system ( I think Runescape wilderness had something like this for a little bit when they were tooling around with wilderness changes), but pvpers hate that shit because they get forced into fair fights instead of ones their numbers make them superior.
>>732218717You're right but most WoWfags won't abandon the concept of keeping their characters forever, it's all about the sunk cost.
>>732220160Actually the opposite.There's so many paypigs who are desperate to whale on the next big thing, but the next big thing keeps being a rugpull.
>>732219962We're all going to be playing videogames together eventually. Lobby games will be surpassed by persistent worlds.
>>732219914The game is getting entirely remade in UE5 from the Pleione Engine. A lot of assets will be carried over such as newer outfits and enemies but. Things such as animations, UI, the entire world, etc are being remade entirely. They're being very autistic about it too. They do regular updates to this sitehttps://www.nexon.com/mabinogi/micro-site/eternity/news/Goes stupid in depth on things like face shape, sitting animations, NPC dialogue, etc.Things are being changed however. They have shown skills functioning different as they do now and additions such as a proper dodge system. But they have repeatedly insisted all progress, gear, titles, achievements, etc all will carry over to the new version of the game.
>>732220161NOO THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE IT LIKE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL MMONOOOOOOOO
>>732220260I can't think of an MMO that I've played where skill is not a factor. It's not usually hard to gear up, and MMOs usually have pretty deep PvP.
>>732220548This dude never played Archeage or BDO.Gear > class meta > server ping > actual player skill.https://youtu.be/1j0WIz4igOs?t=86
Here are a few oldfag sanctioned options for MMOs that are niche yet still around >Ryzom Euro MMO made years ago in the 2000s with a very unique fantasy/sci-fi setting. Was originally subscription and F2P, but when it crashed the devs basically turned it over to players as open source. Now players continue to expand it. Free to play, or you opt for a subscription that has some bonuses; no item mall MTX bullshit >UnderlightThe true oldfag great made for roleplayers in a completely newage-y dream world. Its been running for near 30 years now I think and even leveling is not just gaining XP all the time, but to move up a major 'sphere' it means doing a quest for a guild/faction that is made up by an actual player, based on how well you RP and the goals of the faction. The 'guilds' of sorts have halls and some of them differ in their ideological outlook on the Dream itself, and if say... they want to protect people from nightmare corrupted NPCs, but are authoritarians not wanting Dreamers (players) to use certain schools of magic they think are corrupting, or there are others that believe that expanding the amount of Dreamers will increase the amount of 'magic' in the world, still overs believe that the goal should be to wake from the dream and move it into its next phase etc. Its got 90s "this is Doom, my first 3D-ish" graphics, so if that will bother you or you don't want to RP it may not be the game for you >City of Heroes Homecoming (or any of the private servers today)City of Heroes / Villains closed years ago, but some heroic NCSoft dev gave all the game's code to an autist who, a few years ago finally developed it enough to open it public, for free. Now there are many open forks with slightly different rules, but it has all of the original paid sub "isssues" plus new content, all free. >Shroud of the AvatarRichard Garrriot of Ultima fame made this spiritual successor to UO in 3D. Heavily RP focused, its still active; out of room
>>732220548>I can't think of an MMO that I've played where skill is not a factor.Because you're a jackass arguing in bad faith.You know full damn well that pvpers love murdering lower level players who have no realistic chance to fight back due to how damage formulas work. pvpers love pretending this isn't what they love to do even though if they liked even fights they'd just play in the dedicated arena modes that have actual balance considerations.
>>732200731You know what all those games have in common? Theres no requirement to group up manually, or at all in most cases. Its not the age of the community its that you're playing games where theres no incentive to even play with others in the first place.
>>732220462ok so it's not really a remake in a regular sense, it's a port + an update remake entails more of a ground up thing
>>732141520Darkfall just went online a couple weeks ago with a new free server, it's kind of peak. 5x exp rate and its basically morrowind and ultima.
>>732221607It is from the ground up. They're only reusing a few assets. Everything else is new. Movement code, server code, combat, everything but the few assets. If this isn't counted as a remake you're just picky.
>>732152602Can I play as a dwarf?
A shame Blue Protocol turned out as shit as it did.
>>732222045Yeah but according to nips and those ENG that went out of their way to play the original vision, that was also shit.I don't think it was salvageable. Even with everything being reworked it sucked. Even ignoring the mobile shit, it sucked.The foundations of the game just sucked.They should have pivoted hard into social aspects and abuse the fashion/graphics.
I want a game that DOESN'T try to reinvent the wheel. All you need to do is to take existing stuff and make it as polished as possible."modern audience" is not going to pay to play your game.
>>732222310I just want a large game world, lots of stuff to explore, lots of enemies to kill, lots of goofy unique gear to find, and lots of social features.I wouldn't mind a lot of p2w or something. I don't care anymore about raids, don't care about pvp. I just want to struggle through a dungeon with some buds and kill some trash to find like an egg helmet or something.
>>732221767blast from the past holy shit
>>732222596I'm playing it, 5x exp is great.
>>732222294>They should have pivoted hard into social aspects and abuse the fashion/graphics.thats not enough to keep a game alive, pso2 died the second NGS hit and even with the best character customization in mmos and a pretty good housing/building system its still dead as shit because the game is just dogshit especially compared to the previous version and also at that point why don't you just play some shit like second life or vr chat if all you want is fashion/graphics and social aspects
>>732223587Social does not only mean fashion and housing.
>>732222310you just described wow
>>732224040>polished as possible
>>732224040on private servers, maybe
>>732224408WoW is whether you like it or not one of the most polished MMOs out there. The amount of bugs you will encounter as a regular player is probably in the single digits per 1000 hours played.
>>732222310As much as people will meme on it, this is low key what I'm expecting the Riot League MMO to be. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just do what they've done before with League, Valorant, and TFT. Steal all the best ideas from previous best games on market, but put new polish on it and make it accessible to everyone. League was just more accessible DotA. Valorant was more accessible CS. TFT was just straight up better AutoChess. Take the stuff that works from WoW and FFXIV and steal it, and people will show up just to play your game and see all the League world building stuff in the Runeterra setting.All the better if it's F2P in comparison to WoW and FFXIV's subscription models. Let them be aggressive with aesthetics only microstransaction, who cares. Let the whales pay for the game.
>>732224408what do you consider not polished in wow? they just added one of the most comprehensive housing systems in any game ever on their first real try, right on launch too
What are some free MMOs with active playerbases?
>tranny furiously attempting to groom people into playing wow
just a reminder op is a schizo known as nutrimentsnigger
>>732225235Stop replying to me you disingenuous WOWNIGGERS
>>732226058
>>732226058I don't play retail because it's gay and lame and yeah I guess their cutscene department got cut down hard but other than that you have no argument on anything gameplay related
>>732221032Are you talking about leveling PvP? Almost no other WPvP exists in WoW because most of the world doesn't matter.People play BGs and arenas all the time.
>>732225342What do you mean by active?Do you mean millions of people you will never interact with or do you mean a few hundreds/thousands and you can easily get groups for any content?If the former: WoW, FFXIV, GW2, ESO, OSRS, AlbionIf the latter: Neverwinter, Star Trek Online, Mabinogi, Black Desert, Warframe, Project Gorgon, Eterspire, Maplestory, Toram, PSO2, City of Heroes, Throne and Liberty, FFXI, FlyFF, Bitcraft, LOTRO, DDO, DFO, DofusIf you're okay with pservers: PSO1BB, Maplestory 2, Ragnarok, FHX, Trickster, RaiderZ, WoW, or basically any MMO really. Those are just examples I've played with decent management.
>>732223982I know, thats why i brought up second life and vrchat.
>>732227256You made it sound like the social needs of the game were fulfilled with just fashion/housing. They obviously aren't and gameplay lack is not the reason the game is low population. Vrchat has NO gameplay and has consistently done well. Second life is similar.PSO2 NGS lacks in the social department AND in gameplay. Even if it does well with aspects such as fashion or housing it's missing its something to get people returning.
>>732227574but yeah why would you play blue protocol even if they did lean more into social aspects when there are other games that are far more free and customizable and look better? Just a sense of fomo? Because thats the only reason people played BPSR at all in the first place, new mmo fotm first month fomo.
>>732179124this is some real shit. I want a weird MMO. That's what we're missing. We've have ten thousand tank-healer-dps loot carnivals over the last 20 years. Give me something DIFFERENT
>>732227791we still have weird mmos they are just kind of dead and or stuck in regions with no localization like DQX
>>732227891>DQXBut I do not speak nihongo
Anyone playing Project Gorgon?
>>732229629I did like 10 years ago. A ton of ideas to really love but the game wasn't functionally polished at the time to really hold me. How is it these days?
>>732198358>I'm not sure SW TOR has anywhere near the same fantasy.Star Wars Galaxies
Is Project Gorgon any good?
>>732229910I just started playing it yesterday, it seems good so far
>>732229910>>732230087It's good if you get 1-2 buds and try not to abuse guides. Chat with people in game rather than use guides. Most people will show you cool stuff you didn't know about.No there is no way to make the game run well.9/10 one of the best new MMOs.
>>732230282>It's good if you get 1-2 budsShit solo?
>>732230282Why is there a $500 package for sale?
>>732208289Eve very has very clear distinction between PVE and PVP fits. This is one of the worst design choices in the game as PVE ships basically always have to run from PVP ships to avoid eating shit because the ships just aren't viable in PvP. This limits the possibilities of being out in space doing PVE stuff waiting for PVP to find you.
>>732230709cause people are retarded and will buy anything>>732230345It's an mmo retard what do you think
>>732231760MMOs need to be good solo or else they're trash
>>732232714Type out slowly with your hands what MMO means. No you can't use chatgpt for this. I want you to use your brain.I am not saying they cannot be played solo. But they do not need to be good solo.
I miss 2005 era MMORPGs
>>732232714I truly don't understand why you "people" don't just play diablo-clones or SP RPGs
I still play Mabinogi from time to timeComfy game
>>732232714A tranny typed this post.
>>732232714I kind of agree. There need to be activities that you can do solo
>>732233265Because they're lonely but also socially retarded narcissists, so they play MMORPGs because they NEED the hustle and bustle of an actively thriving online game so they don't feel like they're actually alone, but they also want to never interact with them, ever, and having to ever interact with anyone on an online game makes them piss and shit their pants.
>>732234000Trips of truth
>>732232714Truth nuke.
>>732233265Because that junk doesn't offer open world PvP.
>>732234875You must be one of the "lonely but also socially retarded narcissists" that >>732234000 describesThe only interaction you want with other players is to gank them; not even an honorable duel, but the online equivalent of sucker-punching someone
>>732234000whats wrong with that? im one of those people. i just find having actual players around makes the game feel more real, less meaningless, and it helps the suspension of disbelief.
>>732231760>It's an mmo retard what do you thinkWhat a brainless answer
>>732186230I'm still pissed that New World is shutting down. Yea, it had a hilariously bad launch, but it was legit one of the best current MMOs. Easily better than ESO, with that game's boring as fuck combat, idk how people play that shit for more than 20 minutes.
>>732234000I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting other players in the universe to make it feel more real. I always remember moments of seeing some random wanderer while exploring a corner of the LotRO map and having a spontaneous conversation. Its fun to see people in towns, wonder at where they got their gear. And the bazaars of true Old School Runescape before the GE. Merely witnessing these things makes the game feel more lived in, even if you never interact.
>>732235669There's an unhealthy disconnect between wanting the comfort and reassurance of humanity, but being unwilling to engage with it yourself, so you're reducing it to wanting a convincing stage, and all the other participants, merely props, in order to sell your own sort of truman show.
>>732236148They made boatloads of money; I don't know why they don't launch the original version.
>>732235669>>732236207There's nothing wrong with personally playing an MMORPG for that, but the genre should not be centered around you and what you want, devs should not cater to people who play MMORPGs with no intent of ever playing with or communicating with other players because that defeats the purpose of having other players in the first place. There's no point in developing an MMORPG where the other players serve as nothing more than decoration to make anti-social loners feel more "comfy". That's like a dev making a colony simulator for people who hate having to deal with a bunch of NPCs.
Hey guys new idea first person shooter but with a focus on mahjong. Its going to have world class mahjong.
>>732236598That it's true, but great MMOs don't intentionally cater to anyone, they simply try to make a fun world with very high degrees of interaction possible between players. There's nothing more soulless than the queue era of MMOs. In fact I would say that group finders and other similar systems have killed MMO interaction.
>>732236827What is worseAn mmo with a queue finder or one where everyone is grinding alone?
>>732237113Theyre the same game. The queue finder is what causes everyone to grind alone. Along with the broader damage to social interaction caused by social media, discord, etc.
>>732232714>the multiplayer rpg game needs to be playable solo because I am an anti social retard and everything needs to cater to mekill yourself unironically
Queue finders can result in less interaction, but an MMO with a living world can have a queue finder and not have low social identity.
>>732233145Multiplayer does not mean co-op or group play, it means there are other players around, in this case a massive amount of them. You don't spend every waking hour of your life doing things with other people just because there are other people around, neither should you in games.
MMOs are dead due to companies forgetting the game was actually supposed to evolve or heavily lean into what made them good in the first place.Classic+ never happened for WoW so it died.EoC happened to RS2 and now OSRS has effectively been ruined by Reddit.All MMOs are destined to die because they are designed to. It's not about you. It's about sucking you dry of all your money. But in a way you don't realize it until everyone has left.W-what is bro yapping about? The truth.also ironman mode killed MMOs. unique snowflakes modes don't actually grow the game they kill it.why? because those challenges can already be done on the regular account. making special modes for it killed the soul.i know a lot of people don't get what i'm saying and that's fine but I think I'm correct.
MMOs would be fixed if someone actually just made .hack's The World.
Most MMO gameplay is going to be solo. Think gathering, crafting, and trading -- some of the most adventurous and rewarding gameplay that will also be some of the most lucrative. WPvE too -- world bosses should be soloable so that players don't have to sit in a city and spam "LFG", and players should be rewarded for traversal and persistence.What are some ways to reward grouping?
>>732237710I enjoy playing solo and then running into players organically in the world, teaming up for quests, fighting off gankers etc. That's what gives me the feeling of adventure and being part of a big living fantasy world. If you're forced to group up for everything then nothing happens organically, you either spam a magical all encompassing global chat or queue up for something and have your group suddenly materialize out of nowhere just to drone through a dungeon they've done 50 times already for XP, shit like this really takes me out of the world man.
>>732238367>All MMOs are destined to die because they are designed to.An MMO that's trying to be the best game in existence should be an everyone, forever game. Every design either detracts from or adds to quality. The height of the industry would be extremely fulfilling. That's a living world.
>>732238940>teaming up for quests, fighting off gankersif you want mmos to be solo you don't need to do that at all and no one will do it because its a waste of time to group up when you can just do that solo RETARD
Why doesn't open world faction pvp ever work? I don't play sandbox MMOs so I'm pretty much talking out of my ass, but don't they usually fail because the pvp scene almost always boils down to low level players getting ganked in their own starting zones? Wouldn't a territorial frontline where the factions would typically clash address this properly, so people who don't want pvp can opt out entirely while those that do can just go to the frontline with a party or their guild and get guaranteed action?
>>732239414I don't think an ideal MMO would have factions, just grouping and guilds. Having some 1/3 of people being friendly is extremely counter productive.
>>732239148Obviously grouping should make things more convenient to encourage grouping but not so much that it becomes mandatory. When you meet a fellow traveler on the same path you can help each other out. I like how old WoW does it with diminishing returns on exp based on how big your group it with a cap of 5, you'll kill things faster and easier as a group but you get less exp and have to deal with spawn timers to compensate. Some quests can be group quests, others can be more convenient to do solo. Balance is key.
>>732239414Open-world non-consensual PvP doesn't fucking work in an MMORPG.>RPGProgression differences mean PvP just means whoever is stronger. ie Sweatlords.>Faction PvPIn addition to that, factions mean NOTHING. No one fucking cares! People play RPGs to progress THEIR GAME, not "win for" their Faction. Ultimately unless there's a reward in it for them. Not only that, but winning in a PvP context means someone LOSING! There will always be a loser in a PvP setting. So if you dangle some unique reward for X faction winner, it's hardly fair, and just leads to more losses and more advantages for the winner.Yes a separate territory like GW2 WvW fixes this. >>732238367>>732238206classic MMO unplayer opinions
>>732239148Make content that's practically very hard to solo or impossible? Duh.
>>732239148Even maplestory was able to pull that off for a brief moment in its early days cause there was an incentive for party play before they started adding efficient training maps. The maps were typically huge, characters were slow and most couldn't mob that well so you couldn't keep the spawn rate up by yourself enough to make it a comfortable grind with minimal movement, so it was better to split up the map with other players in platforms. That meant that with a party, you spent much less time running around killing 1-2 mobs here or there or pulling them into a big pile and more time actually hitting them to death. It wasn't something that you had to arrange before you showed up and be expected to stay for some arbitrary amount of time, you could join and leave whenever you want and people didn't care. It was as easy as casually waltzing into a map and asking if they have a slot or if anyone's leaving soon, if not then you'd cc and try again. Or you'd be grinding solo and people would eventually end up in your map wanting to help you split it up.
idk bros i suicided my rs3 hardcore ironman and im kinda fucking glad. good riddance to that piece of shit game.im debating getting into osrs but honestly? i might not. osrs is so fucking botted it's kind of hard to avoid such a glaring issue.
>>732238980 You're spot on. The dream MMO should feel like a place you live in, not something you just "clock in and out" of for dailies and fake progression. Somewhere your character's story grows over months, even years. Dynamic world changes, a real in-game economy, and emergent social interactions - that's the lifeblood. But devs don't build "forever" games anymore, they build FOMO treadmills with premium battle passes.A real living world would evolve with the players. It would respect time investment. It wouldn't toss you a loot crate for logging in, it would reward remembering the bartender's name in a back-alley tavern because it leads to quests only he gives once every moon phase.We got the tech for a masterpiece. No one’s got the guts to just make it.
>>732239741Nobody cares if they lose when the game is fun. People don't usually quit CS and MOBAs.
>>732240024CS and MOBAs aren't RPGs and they don't get perpetually raped by people who simply have more hours because gear and level advantage are insurmountable in an RPG PvP context. There's a fucking reason games like GW1 has a battlegrounds that just lets people create PvP characters with full-access to skills and equipment, and GW2 WvW at least tries to bring lower-level characters up in stats.Open-world non-consensual PvP, DOES, NOT WORK. It does not matter how many excuses of a system one tries to add to make it work. It is fundamentally, on principle, BAD gameplay.
>>732239741I was pretty much thinking of something like Foxhole which is an MMO, but I did say MMO and not MMORPG in my previous post but fantasy instead of early 20th century. Foxhole has its issues I guess but it's maintained a fairly dedicated playerbase I haven't played that game since like 2020 mind you, mostly because of clanny culture so I guess I'm not sure why it couldn't technically work in a different setting. >Open-world non-consensual PvPBut I did say it was opt-in, meaning that if you don't want the pvp then just don't go to the frontline like how Foxhole does for the most part, or at least the last time I played it was pretty rare to have to worry about partisanship as a logi player.
>>732239801thats what forcing multiplayer means dipshit and this faggot is arguing that you should be able to solo everything or its a bad mmo which is retarded
>>732240228Do NOT call me a dipshit!
>>732239925Man this place really needs poster ids now with all this AI samefagging going on.
>>732240213WoW baby detected, opinion rejected.
>>732239925>We got the tech for a masterpiece. No one’s got the guts to just make it.I think it more comes down to budget where modern video games cost a fuckload to make as is not even counting an MMO which was always more expensive than a normal AAA game. Theres probably just 0 return on investment anymore with how bad game dev inflation has gotten.
>>732240213It's not obvious why you think meaningful loss usually happens in -- what, WoW? You keep your inventory. If you don't want to PvP, play on a PvE server.
>50 skill icons plastered all over your screen>stealth nigger PK ambush>miserable travelling>annoying agro mobs blocking your travel>empty leveling zone once everyone moved to the later levels>people divided into multiple channels>zone zone zone zone zone>overdesigned end game armor>rng gear upgrade>dungeon based progression once you reach level cap>currency inflation in player market>braindead generic deliver and kill x shit quest
>>732240380>he thinks I'm a WoW babyoof
>>732240304That's not a samefag.
>>732240542but enough about WoWplay a real MMORPG
>>732240431A 10 person studio could make an MMO in 6 months. Exactly zero reason exists to have 300 person studios.
>>732240584Usually it's the WoW or FF14 players who shit and piss themselves over the thought of open-world PvP, so they're the easiest 2 to throw out even though they aren't MMOs.
>>732240681Sure if you're ok with your MMO looking like it timetraveled from the 90s
>>732240694oh, you're the open-world PvP schizo
>>732240681how many mmos are there with a 10 person studio putting out content at a decent pace that actually looks good (this is required in the modern age because the modern gaming playerbase is just full of subhuman retards pic related)
>>732240213There is no such thing as non-consensual pvp, you consented to playing the game, to join the pvp server or to enter the pvp zone. Quit playing the victim.
>>732240761There's nothing wrong with a low poly game that has good lighting and shaders.Also, you're wrong. You could easily make a few characters, mobs, and a zone per day and have plenty of content in a month or two.
>>732240916You're not refuting my post. It can be done.
>>732241159>it can be done>doesn't give any examples of it being doneI'm going to beat you to death with a rock you mongoloid.
>>732241094You have no idea how game dev works, I'd really prefer if you'd be quiet,
>>732240681The game itself could but the data center management for accounts and subscriptions, payment systems, platformization, etc are a son of a bitch
>>732241046kill yourself pvp schizo
>>732240694This is so crazy because in 2004 when WoW came out, it's Open World was exactly the thing that put it head and shoulders above every previous MMO
>>732241251>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEthat's what I thought
>>732240916>>732241159Also, sandbox games don't need continual content.>>732241183>>732241187>>732241220Do you really not think it can be done?
>>732241319You still have yet to post examples of it being done.
>>732241094Explain aoc, or starwhatever, or like any of the indie MMOs that were revealed a literal decade ago and still haven't done anything like camelot or pantheon or legends of aria, crowfield? What about all the extremely old MMOs and private servers the fanbases continuously try their hardest to revive but never succeed in doing so on any notable scale? There have been more cancelled, dead out of the water, perpetually in early access, or never-release MMORPGs in the past 10 years than there are MMORPGs that actually released and survived. Project Gorgon just had its 1.0 release mere days ago and only has a population of 2k, which I can't say is actually a bad thing but it shows how little people are interested in an MMORPG that looks like that.
>>732240916literally 3 people made Dofus in 2004 and now it's easily a top 5 MMORPGa group of 10 people could literally copy Dofus and be successful
>>732241367Okay do it pussy,Bet you won't
>>732241367>im gonna copy an existing mmo and it will be successful>is worse in basically every wayhmm yes
>>732241595Brighter Shores isn't worse in every way.It does many things on par with Runescape. But it fails incredibly at being an MMO.>no player trading>no pvp>no interactions with anyone outside of chat>no bossesit's like Andrew forgot the MM part and only made an ORPG
>>732241595to be fair RuneScape combat was never good and Gower is no geniusin contrast tactical combat is tried and true, and fits with a plethora of RPG mechanics, and offers unique mechanics as wellthe only flaw for tactical combat is its fundamentally instance based so it limits itself to smaller fights - that said if you're designing a live-service game there's nothing wrong with it and selling it as suchit also does not require any heavy computational power from servers, meaning client-server connections should be simple
>>732239925So Haven&Hearth or Wurm?
>>732241337I don't know about MMOs, but apparently, Rust was made by a dev team of 5-8ish and had a playable version in under a year.I don't think something not being done before is even a reasonable criticism of the idea. AI thinks it can be done.
>>732239414It works in Albion Online.
>AI thinks it can be done.lmao ok
for me it's blue protocolm even tho queueing for a dungeon takes 10+ minutes as a dps!
>>732238732Not making the group content soloable.
>>732241832Albion isn't open world pvp it has safe zones
>>732239414It worked just fine in Wizardry Online.Very quickly groups rose up inside both factions. The evil faction got hit men and protectors from the good faction which had bodyguards and also crusaders who went into the evil faction.Nothing forced all player made groups and they worked pretty well.Too bad nobody will ever play that game again. Even Pservers don't exist and progress has stagnated on them.
>>732241340Like was intoned, I don't actually think you need to make low poly.
>>732216745>queuesIf you get to this point your MMORPG already failed and you need to just start over.
>>732241595what a weird game andrew was so afraid to retread runescape but ripped off various aspects and stuck them all together with the worst non-runescape aspects, to form the worst rs clone imaginable.
>>732146740>Used to play dfo daily >Now only play to see new story content and hopping for the day they finally start the Empire arc
>>732242079>problem: wikis and online guides have ruined the genreThey also have a shit unplayer opinion.
>>732242048I was just speaking in general about MMORPGs that forego graphics in favor of actually trying to make a good and enjoyable game, since they usually fail miserably anyway.
>>732241885Do you want to get spawn camped? Of course it has safe zones.
>>732238732>>732241882You could probably just ramp up boss difficulty for groups.
>>732242419then it's not open-world pvpyes I want to spawn camp people THAT'S WHY PEOPLE PLAY THEM
>>732242493>yes I want to spawn camp peopleYou can't do that at all though because games that let you do that end up with no players lol
>>732216745I haven't found a compelling argument against wikis and online guides, or even addons. I don't care if an addon tells you to get out of the fire. People looked up WoW quest guides because quests didn't have markers, but it was a community driven thing that not only gives a website a reason to exist and a way to make money, but being able to play the game fluidly is actually really good.
>>732242118A 3D combo MMO should exist.
>>732242717You should have the ability to make books, scrolls, tomes, or other such things in game, and all information that would be stored in the wiki should be put there instead. Keeping players in the game instead of going outside of it should be a critical part of the MMORPG experience and agenda.
>>732242201Well, even AAA MMOs with good graphics fail. See New World.
>>732242792isn't BnS basically that
>>732242792RaiderzBnsKurtpel
>>732242792vindictus, but it's arguable to call it an mmo
>>732241319>Do you really not think it can be done?The game could be made, but it could not be supported en masse because the operations side of running a world wide network of distributed server clusters is the hard part. You could make the game and distribute it locally to your friends and all hard code your IP addresses and yeah the game itself would work great. There's an *annoying* amount of infrastructure required to run an mmo>t. I was an engine developer on Minecraft for 7 years
>>732239925Any sufficiently popular game that has an in-game economy is going to get ruined by botters and gold sellers, or just the devs adding microtransactions for that shit themselves.
>>732244585Bots aren't going to supply millions of players.
>>732239925I love your vision
>>732242493lmao, every time, some fucking loser autist who shills for full open world pvp mmos (because he's not good enough to get top ranks in ASSFAG's, battle royales or fps games), only really does it because he wants to grief people who can't fight back.You're a literal internet-nigger. Its super cringe.
For ships that aren't click-orbit, EVE has 3D Diablo gameplay. It's really good. I was having dreams about it. I wonder if another company should try. Spaceship gameplay could be really popular. See Star Citizen.
>>732239414It did work. It was called Dark Age of Camelot.
>>732152602Looking forward to seeing how this game develops once it's closer to 1.0
>Either have to make the ingame economy worthless so RMT bots don't matter, or hire a posse of programmers to write automated tools in various places to detect bots/cheaters to keep the economy sane
>>732246606Yeah but where's the sequel or spiritual successor?
>>732247732https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelot_Unchained
>>732247948Oh I forgot about that. Are they almost done with their 8th rebuild of the game and 4000th stress test?
>>732152602added to the wishlist for sure, thanks anon. I think i'll wait until its more developed to try though.>>732247446Hire AI anti-bot farmers, run by dedicated GM's who monitor for RMT solves that particular issue. You can also make the signup process unique and hard to automate, the biggest problem with botting is how stagnant the signup process is, keep moving the buttons around on the screen for each window randomly, captcha every step, don't allow signups or logins via vpns ever (if the tranny-jannies running 4chan can prevent me posting on a vpn so can literally any mmo), and you have to be on the same continent as the server you're trying to login to, at least for the first few times you play. That alone curbs ~80% of botting+RMT even without.That alone curbs ~80% of botting+RMT, AI aside.
>>732241270WoW (even just plain Classic) still has a miles better open world than every other MMO on the market. It's not even a contest.
>>732241270Main thing WoW had going for it was seamless zoning. Every other 3d MMO that I recall at the time (EQ1, XI, DAoC) were zone based.
>>732240694Vanilla/Classic WoW, while revolutionary, exposed the school-shooter mentality that open world griefer pvpers, like the ones in this thread sperging out and bragging about how they like wasting other peoples time, really have. While i played og wow+wow classic on a mostly balanced pvp server, and i did my share of open world pvp, i was never a griefer and i only camped players a small handful of times, when they deserved it. The reason no new mmos do this, is because of the toxic manchildren who get off on griefing helpless low-levels. Its just not worth it, and the proof is in the failure of every pure-pvp, full-loot oriented MMO.I saw the damage hard-griefing on a factions playerbase did with my own eyes, after the honor-introduction without battlegrounds in classic wow. It was awful, alliance players were being camped by neets for honor, almost every mega-server became mono-faction within months because of it.I was griefed a little by small squads of alliance players doing the same thing in isolated areas, and it was super annoying for me, and i was experiencing 5% of what the alliance players were on my server. Theres a very good reason that'll never happen again.
>>732250943I only ever played PVP WoW servers during vanilla/BC. Were players even after to kill opposing faction's NPCs on non-PVP servers? I always found that shit fascinating, that you could outright deny players not only XP/questing in a given area, but also NPCs.Ganklethorn was quite a nuisance back then.
Only MMOs I've ever enjoyed were Eve Online, Anarchy Online and Star Wars Galaxies. All the new stuff is just seems like themepark to me. If I really want themepark I can just play Elden Ring or something.
