Both of these are 100,000% true. And honestly there's overwhelming evidence in both cases. I also ALMOST believe the theory that Dess was a human (which also has copious evidence pointing to it). The only big factor against it is that Undertale said explicitly that a human can't absorb a human soul.... But there's wiggle room, and it's still highly likely Dess was a human.
So Dess raped Noelle in the Weird Route?
>>732300852Go to bed, Jaru
>>732301646Dess is a tough girl and just wants her sister to be able to defend herself
>>732300852This theory is the most knuckle dragging one.>what if the twist was extremely obvious and retarded
>>732300852dess isnt human because she has actual pronoums and isnt they/them
>>732300852>Jaru is posting in these threadsHype
>>732300852God, I honestly don't get why Jaru is at all invested in this fandom, given his hatred for metanarrative and for (you) being a character in the story.This shit doesn't even make sense. Kris's original soul and dess is clearly the Knight.
>>732302461This. Toby isn't making a gendered human. The human girls are staying in fanart
>>732301987Sureeeee.
>>732302595According to his YouTube community posts it seems he's making a video about the SOUL and (us). Since he's asking people why they believe in it. Cringekino incoming
>>732300852
>>732301987Finding out that Jaru somehow prefers FemKris really explains why he made them and Dess rivals for Asriel’s affection. Truly the double incest theory
>>732302747I cannot wait to laugh some more at my favorite Theorist-flavored lolcow.
>>732302957I didn't understand a single thing he said but it's funny he's into double incest. Truly a disciple of Toby.
>>732302892Jaru actually says Dess is a boss monster and Kris absorbed her SOUL after killing her. Need to get that slander fixed
>>732303154Jaru might be legitimately schizophrenic. He believes in dumb shit like trans Noelle but is against Kris being non-binary. I don't think he even realized he made Kris into a brocon and Dess into an incestuous groomer
>>732303204Why in the fuck does he try and apply Undertale logic at every turn?
>>732303204Nigga, I don't know how to break this to you or Jaru, but Dess ain't a boss monster.Boss monsters are the Goat-like creatures that Toriel and Asgore are.
>>732303439He's obsessed with Undertale parallelism, which he isn't wrong per say. Deltarune clearly is a parallel to Undertale but I don't think this means the exact same things happened but swapped as if it were an AU.
>>732303632we dont know if the boss monsters were just goats, we only know that the dreemurrs are likely the last boss monsters alivebut there could have been more beforeyou will just have to IMAGINE it
>>732303632It's not hard to imagine the Holidays are boss monsters too desu. There's no explicit proof otherwise and it would explain why their families are so close
>>732303694>>732303958for all we know, boss monsters don't exist in Deltarune at all.
>>732304020I was talking about UT, I do believe boss monsters don't exist in DR and are just regular monsters like everyone else
>>732303632>Boss monsters are the Goat-like creatures that Toriel and Asgore are.We don't ACTUALLY know this, but yeah, he completely made up Dess being a boss monster would off his ass. Just to make his theory happen
>>732303694You shouldn't build a theory based on imagined evidence, as that makes for a shitty theory. A theory's evidence should be entirely built on facts, with Imagination comeing in to fill connections formed between your evidence.As every instance of Boss Monsters has been Toriel and Asgore's goat race. This is a fact.No other monster has ever been called a boss monster. This is also a fact.Dess+Family is alive during Undertale. This is also a fact.If you are relying on Undertale lore to feed into Deltarune, the fact that the Holiday family are not considered boss monsters in Undertale means that they aren't in Deltarune
>>732302984Honestly I somewhat agree with him that the SOUL is probably going to have an in-universe explanation and it isn't literally the player as many think, but it's not Dess or Asriel or anyone that would actually be important.
Deltarune will be closer to YIIK rather than OMORI
>>732303694>we only know that the dreemurrs are likely the last boss monsters aliveWe don't actually know this in Undertale, either. Only that the only boss monster we meet is them.
>>732300852israel
>>732303387It would make for a pretty nice fanfic at least.
>>732304363No. Noelle Snowgraved Dess and Kris helped her frozen body in the shelter.
>>732304363>DUDE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR DEAD SISTER
>>732303694>>732303958>>732304140One must consider Toby part of the calculation. Dude is both incredibly literal and also metaphorical at the same time.So making an entire species of Dragon-Goats and calling them all exclusively Boss Monsters is exactly the sort of thing he'd do.If Toby intended Dess to be a Boss Monster, with the way he does things, she'd be the same sort of dragon-goat, not a deer.
>>732304979Yeah, Jaru's theories work as fanfics. I actually like that he can go crazy unlike most theories which is how he can get SOME hits (dustners) but lots of misses.
>>732305158yeah, because all those hints for TV hijinks became very literal in chapter 3, it definitely wasn't actually themed after retro gaming at all
>>732300852Yeah man, Kris would totally hit Dess's soul with a hockey stick, and Dess would want to fuck her own sister with Kris's dick. You fucking retard.
>>732305158Yeah, I doubt Dess is a boss monster. In fact we don't even know if Boss Monsters are a thing in Deltarune so far
>>732305498We actually know for a fact that Dess is not a boss monster because if she were, Kris would have simply absorbed her soul until a replacement body could be fabricated, rather than giving up his own soul to try to bring her back to life.
>>732305408I presume you grew up in a house without a console.
>>732305612I mean, that's literally Jaru's theory except Kris dislikes Dess because she is taking Asriel from them.
>>732305698He thinks Kris has her soul despite us never seeing it?
>>732305450Jaru definitely unironically ships Krisriel since Kris beating the SOUL was enough for him to say Asriel isn't the soul but Dess is.
>all these dumbasses arguing about who the Knight is>none of them consider the possibility that they're all right
>>732305758Yes. Somehow. Because SOUL glows white in Chapter 1.
>>732305769Well we do know it's not asriel because it's a permanant, colored human soul, where as asriel's would be white and very transient. But yeah obviously not Dess's either, but yours, the players.
>>732305408>hints for TV hijinksIn a setting with flatscreens and smartphones, an old dusty CRT getting plugged back in for entertainment at a sleepover evokes nostalgia, not showbusiness.Spamton was the one who talked like showbusiness might have been involved once upon a time, but hints around him made it look like the whole show had been out of date, not just Spamton's part in it.
>>732305908The player is Noelle from the future!
>>732305875It could technically be a scream situation, where there's one knight in the dark world (the real one, probably a Dess darkner thing) and someone dressed as the knight in the light world (presumably Rudy or Carol)
>>732306008Everyone in town is the Knight, except Kris. They all take turns so they all have an alibi.
>>732302892You can sense the seethe from this shit. Can you a little bit more subtle,8 year old
Hot interspecies lesbian sex.
>>732305908Jaru thinks it's Kris's soul but he absorbed Dess (formerly Asriel pre 3 and 4) SOUL. That's why it still looks human. You play as their soul inside Kris's soul.
Kris being used for a deer sandwich
>>732306324>You play as their soul inside Kris's soul.Yo dawg I heard you like souls...
>>732305875Multiple knights will be real
It's time. I will now unveil the truth behind the Roaring Knight.
>>732306324>player is roleplaying as dess roleplaying as kris roleplaying as a heroFirst ever RRRRPG incoming, Bravo Toby
>>732300852Deltarune is old shit. We playing Mahjong now.
how did deltarune theories become increasingly more reaching and retardedIt's like a contest on who can make the most obtuse plot-twist that'd make M. Night blush
>>732300852I'm not even going to entertain a theory that stupid. I'm an amalgam knighter through and through>If the knight was a holiday, it would not be referred to as an it. An amalgam would. While the knight is referred to with they/them pronouns sometimes, Ralsei, the person most knowledgeable on the prophecy, referring to them as an it is real telling.>In Chapter 1 and 2, the knight has been referred to as its own person. The whole guy behind the mask thing is a fanon misunderstanding.>Amalgams are shown to be able to shapeshift. No of the other Knight candidates have the correct build or ability to shapeshift.>They are created using determination, the substance that enables the creation of darkworlds. The shadow crystals being pretty much confirmed to be containers of determination only further solidifies the connection the knight has to determination and thus being an amalgam.>It would explain why the knight is kept secret, Carol running unethical experiments and creating abominations like these would be a major cause for concern>The knight is animalistic while also clearly being sapient, traits amalgams have.>This would explain why the knight has different voices. A shrill scream, a Noelle like yelp, and a laugh that sounds like friend. Amalgams have weird voices.>Amalgams are really strong so it's no wonder why it was able to carry Undyne so easily.>The knight has an affinity towards Kris because it views them as a comrade in arms against Carol's oppressive hand.>A lightner being created and treated as an object (darkner) with no freedom or agency of its own is the perfect set up for an emotional ending. An ending with Susie forgiving the knight and allowing it to live with her in castle town.The knight is capturing people to take their powers. It is also opening dark fountains to empower the soul. Together, the empowered soul and empowered knight will go into the depths and find Dess.
>>732306980All the red herrings made people schizophrenic so now nobody believes on what Toby actually puts in his games.
>>732306273Try not to be this obvious next time, kid. No-one cares about the number unless they're also underaged.
The big reveal is that Kris doesn't know how to play guitar but the SOUL does
>>732306980Well, you see, since chapter 2 released a good chunk of the fandom think Toby holds the fans in absolute contempt and his always trying his hardest to subvert all of their expectations, regardless if it makes sense or not, therefore these "people" try to predict in which way their expectations will be surbverted.
>>732306980People drove themselves crazy during the wait after chapter 2 as theorycrafting became a way to argue the way you wanted the story to go more than a guess how it's going to go.I think it sort of comes down to all the baseless ch1 theories that were bitchslapped by the intro to ch2, not to mention the direction of the rest of the game, and the people who took that personally.
>>732307145Dess soul won...
>>732306980Bdcause a good chunk of the fanbase are Doubling-down retards who can't accept they were wrong about their chapter 1 predictions.This one is really bad because he has an audience that drinks it down because he was right about the thing that everyone else also predicted.
what's her defect?
>>732305408I don't mind the gaming part too much, but I am sad 3 and 4 don't have as strong of a theme like 1 and 2. TV World doesn't really feel like an actual TV based chapter but just with a vague TV theme and 4 didn't really have a consistent theme outside of music and church objects.
>>732302957Man FemKrisfags truly are something else...
>>732307790>able to see collarbone through fur and a robemalnourished dyke
>>732307632>because he was right about the thing that everyone else also predicted.Popular youtubers didn't, but regular people did, yeah. That's why he gets all the fame.
>>732305875>>732306008>>732306096
>>732306980Engaging with Deltarune fans is a pretty good way to drive yourself completely insane.
>>732307996Wowie human booba
>>732306980For whatever reason, Toby has earned a reputation as a master of mind melting twists, so theorists feel a need to craft theories that live up to that. I don't get it, personally. Undertale had twists, sure, but none on the level you'd expect from Toby being declared "Tricky Tony" by the fandom.
>>732306980scott cawthon's 2 am worldbuilding mindbroke an entire generation of autists. 90% of "theories" can easily be filtered with the simple question "would this be complete bullshit if this actually happened in the story?"
>>732308365>Toby being declared "Tricky Tony" by the fandom.It's literally just Chapter 2 not being genocide 2 that broke the fandom. The biggest twist in 3 and 4 was that Kris wasn't the Knight but working FOR them and their appearance at the end of Chapter 3. Nothing as crazy as the super crazy theories out there.
>There's something more important than reaching the end.>The final chapter of Lord of the Hammer was never written>If I could choose… I guess... I wouldn't have an ending!>The angel is banished before the final tragedy in the prophecy>Toby going on about writing your own stories to fill in the gaps you don't see during the anniversary livestreamGuys every time Toby alludes to the ending of this damn game it sounds like the normal route "fever dream" ending is that it won't have a proper ending, and it'll end with some lesson about how the stories you make are just as valid and important as the stories you experience. my ass is fucking scaredThat would be so unbelievably shit, but I think he knows how unsatisfying it would be for some people. It would mean the weird route probably exists to 'force' an ending no matter how bad things might get, which would explain the 'only one ending' thing. It would even be a similar theme to Undertale's genocide where it's a commentary on players not being satisfied without seeing all the content a game has to offer, even if you have to do something horrible.I know some of you probably want to say that Toby is too good of a writer for that, but It makes too much sense that I genuinely believe it's what's happening and I'm fucking scared
>>732302957>this retard now supports femkrispack it up boys, it was a good run, but if jaru thinks it's true then we know for a fact it 100% is not
>>732308797>prophecy has figure whos only definitive trait is that they're female>game has two major female characters who could easily fill that role>"ah yes CLEARLY the true candidate is this character who's never once been referred to as female"I not even one of those pronouns warriors but that theory was always retarded
>>732308797Eh. It's just his headcanon and he doesn't actually think it has an important role in the narrative so you can still cope.Although it wasn't happening anyways because Toby is autistic about ambiguity.
>>732309089It's actually not happening because Toby writes Kris as a boy and onlyncalls him "them" as a bone to toss to the trannies
>>732308752If Toby actually does it I will forever call him a hack because that's literally Paper Trail's ending. You being banished right as the heroes prepare a counterattack against the Knight.
>>732309163Ralsei is written as a girl and Susie as a boy. Toby doesn't give a shit about how masculine and feminine a character acts before placing a gender. But yes, Kris's gender will never be relevant.
>>732309310Ralsei is a realistically weak boy and Susie is an insecure girl who feigns toughness as a defensive measure. She's literally just fucking helga from hey arnold.
>>732309310>>732309548And actually that's not perfectly fair, as Susie drops the act around Kris within like 2 days of hanging out with him. Melted into goo from basic validation. She's a girl.
>>732309548Susie hates ribbons so no, she isn't.
>>732309654>as Susie drops the act around Kris within like 2 days of hanging out with himSusie acts like the typical anime bro around Kris. But this discussion is pretty autistic, but it does make me think if certain characters where they/them what gender people would think they are. Like everyone portrayed Mad Dummy as a boy just to be revealed she was a girl, for example.
>>732309235>You being banished right as the heroes prepare a counterattack against the Knight.It's going to be this or something similar. I am 100% sure of it, there is no other way it could make sense otherwise.
>>732309310half of susie's arc is learning to express of feelings more and wanting to arc more as the teams "heart". meanwhile i'm like 70% sure that Ch5 is going to be about ralsei growing a spine and being slightly less of a fag
>>732300852its the same soul from undertale because you literally watch gaster summon it
>>732309828Yeah man susie just goes out of her way to touch Kris constantly and sniffs his hair and gets visibly uncomfortable upon hearing he was hanging out with another girl at her house. Just bros being bros!
>>732302957>Kris hates dess because she wanted asriel all to herselfabsolute KINO
>>732309996Kriselle does not have a chance in the normal route no. The whole point of the two routes is that they're a play on VM romance routes. But also people are just assuming for no reason that the weird route can't end well.
>>732308752>It would mean the weird route probably exists to 'force' an ending no matter how bad things might get, which would explain the 'only one ending' thing. It would even be a similar theme to Undertale's genocide where it's a commentary on players not being satisfied without seeing all the content a game has to offer, even if you have to do something horrible.I always struggle with the Weird route because, what's the motivation for the player to do it? I mean ok sure, more content, but, let me explain myself. Let's imagine Deltarune has been released, and look at it with the perspective of a player that has only began to play it after the full release. The player completes the game with the "Pacifist" route, great, but now there's the Weird route, what motivation is there for him to go back and replay the game again? There are hints of the Weird route throughout the game about it and the player will have picked up on them, those are an important part, but I think there's a final catalyst, and that's gonna be the ending. There's gonna be something about the ending that the player is gonna see that might lead them to think "There must be a way to change this", and I don't know exactly what it's gonna be that will cause this, but I do think there will be something.
This fangame looks kino. Doe and Weirdbros winning as always.https://youtu.be/XggtzZjLVO
>>732310193>But also people are just assuming for no reason that the weird route can't end well.>But also people are just assuming for no reason that this demonic ritual involving disemboweling 10 newborns can't end wellI don't know why people would think that anon, it's a true mystery.
>>732310436https://youtu.be/XggtzZjLVOMFucked up the link.
>>732310460>this demonic ritual involving disemboweling 10 newbornsNothing bad has happened in the snowgrave route except Berdly getting frozen, and he attacked first. The rest of it is just unnerving and creepy, and the only reason it is that way is specifically to appeal to Noelle's preferences.
>>732310193>But also people are just assuming for no reason that the weird route can't end well.why would the route explicitly based around murdering heaps of people for power and then psychologically torturing your childhood friend end well? having it actually be the path to the good ending is a genuinely retarded theory. Toby is extremely sincere about friendship and bonds leading people to good places, it goes against literally everything he's ever written to make Weird Route ackshually good
>>732309894You can't deny Susie is very masculine and Ralsei is very feminine. Him being a femboy and she being a tomboy are part of the appeal.
>>732310623Noelle is fucking miserable and you and she murdered people by the dozens. You made her put in a ring that causes her agony. "She likes it" is actually genuine mental retardation. She is terrified and being literally mind controlled into obedience.
>>732310623>Ignoring all the darkners you freeze (which the game's plot is about humanizing them) and assaulting NoelleStop coping, anon.
>>732309089what's ambiguous about kris having delicate princess hands?
>>732310847It certainly is ambiguous enough to have eternal discussions about it.
>>732309996i refuse to believe people unironically waifufag for carol
>>732310083Susie also blushes and gets embarrassed when hanging out with Noelle to the point her tail starts wagging. Attraction to characters isn't a point in favor of a gender in Toby's games. Susie acts like the typical shone protagonist. She being a rough tomboy is her appeal.
>>732310995She's a MILF and a deer in the deer game, it was inevitable.
>>732310995I fucking love Carol. I adore mean, controlling women and I, too, have a pathological fear of change. I also think there's going to be something interesting going with how the entire town is afraid of her. Maybe Susie isn't the only one pigeonholed into a role.
>>732310779>Noelle is fucking miserableDhe's having the time of her life. We're fulfilling her fantasies. >and she murdered people by the dozens>implying darkners are peopleThey're imaginary friends. Fragments of memory and interpretation manifested into a physical form with shadow magic. What do you think is going to happen when you close all the fountains?>You made her put in a ring that causes her agonyIt's a tiny little cut you baby.>>732310843The only one "asdaulted" is Kris, and FUCK Kris.
is carol icy because she lost a daughter, knows the end to the prophesy, or was she just like that?
>>732310663Darkners are not people>psychologically torturing your childhood friend She's written and flicked her bean to fanfics of exactly this scenario. Why do you think she's happy and thanks you if you go all the way but gets mad as shit if you pussy out?SHE WANTS IT, YOU QUEER.
>>732311186>completely ignoring the game constantly telling you that darkners are people and should be treated with kindnessOk anon, clearly the recruitment screen and all of the character's dialogue about being nice don't actually mean shit and instead being a sociopathic cunt is the key to getting a good ending, sure, this makes complete sense.
>>732311186>Dhe's having the time of her life. We're fulfilling her fantasies.yeah which is why she is screaming please don't I don't know this spell and also why she lurches mutely after you make her murder her friend. You're a complete retard.>They're imaginary friends. Fragments of memory and interpretation manifested into a physical form with shadow magic. What do you think is going to happen when you close all the fountains?Are you fucking retarded? How the fuck do you play this game and come to the conclusion that Ralsei is actually right and the Darkners don't matter and are inerently lesser? The Darkners being dehumanized by a cosmic hierarchy is bad and Susie treating them like equals is good. You're a moron.
>>732311294>She's written and flicked her bean to fanfics of exactly this scenario.That's your retarded porn obsessed headcanon. Literally everything in Weird Route shows she is growing increasingly terrified but cannot escape because you, the player, can control her. Do you think Susie explicitly stating she hears your commands as telepathic voices and Noelle being able to hear you even when Kris is incapacitated was just there for fun or something? This entire route, the entire concept of the route and of the game, is playing the control a player has over a game character for horror. The horror of being a puppet in the hands of a higher power who sees your world and life as entertainment and pushes it to breaking to see what will happen.
>>732311209i don't think rudy would marry her if she was always like that. his open disdain for her at the church kinda implies she's changed and he doesn't like her anymore
>>732311186>The only one "asdaulted" is Kris, and FUCK Kris.Look, Kris is the rape victim but that doesn't mean assaulting a fellow human is a good thing. Even if they're a dick.
>>732311780>his open disdain for her at the church?????what? there is no such thing.
>>732311780no that was toriel who hates her which is probably because she thinks asgore is sctizo and carols fueling that
>>732311780iirc rudy mentions in either ch1 or ch2 that carol used to be nicer in the past given her fixation on the past, as seen with the bronzed snowflakes noelle made, presumably she never got over what happened to dess and her strictness with noelle comes from trying to keep her on what she thinks is the 'right path'i feel like we can also make a little leap and assume she was nowhere near as strict with dess as she is with noelle, based on what we find in her room
>>732311395The dark world is an escapist fantasy and the TV in your living room is not your friend. None of these entities are more than a few months old at most and none of them will exist by the end of the week on any route. >>732311413>yeah which is why she is screaming please don'tThe game tells you again and again that she likes being intimidated and controlled. She's leaning into it. The only time she genuinely reacts negatively is if you pussy out.>The Darkners being dehumanized by a cosmic hierarchy is badIt's not good or bad, it just is. They aren't real. Ralsei is just a tulpa of Asriel and he's only changing because Kris and Susie want him to. That's not to say that slaughtering a bunch of fake people for fun is nessisarily healthy, but the direct consequences are objectively non-existent.
>>732311602>That's your retarded porn obsessed headcanon.On multiple occassions in the normal route she openly fantasizes about Susie treating her that way. There's a whole side story about how she likes "bad" routes in games and breaking the rules.
>>732312087>I think the game is actually about how all those friends you made are meaningless fictions >all of Susie's kindness to Tenna was completely pointless and all of Ralsei's improvement and character growth was meaningless too>Susie's drive to defy the prophecy is drivel. actually we should all be good little boys and seal the fountains like Ralsei told us to and completely ignore any dubious aspects of anything going on>it'd be the perfect resolution to a story about fate, just quietly sitting down and doing everything it wants us to evej if it hurts people>making friends with all those Darkners and visiting this magic world of adventures is definitely going to end with destroying all of it because it was all fake and nothing that is fake matters, obviously, just like how Genocide was definitely not questioning anything regarding people's outlook in videogames and it was actually based and cool to try and squeeze all content out of a game even if you're not even having fun>the Knight is actually completely justified in being a callous fuck who murders people at its leisure because Tenna didn't matter anyway>I am a good writer
>>732312087Of course anon, that's clearly what Toby wants you to think, that the darkners are completely meaningless entity you can do whatever you want with, that is clearly what Toby is trying to say, regardless of all the time spent in the game building up the darkners, showing that they can be complex beings, not so different from lightners. No, it is clear that all of that was simply meant to show the player that they only exist as playthings for the lightners, and absolutely nothing else.
>>732312215So do I. So does half this fucking thread. The Weird Route is cool and interesting, doesn't mean I am comfortable with murdering people. I guess that Kris trying desperately to save Noelle from the Soul was actually just Tricky Tony having a laugh! This is all completely harmless. Kris definitely knows nothing about Noelle!
from my deranged tea leaf reading, I estimate that the first pass of the localization is done or approaching being done, and professional testing will start before the end of the month. testing to release should take no longer than 2 months, so an April-May release is entirely feasible. I bet Ch6 won't be until 28 though.>>732311982I was about to say that Toriel doesn't hate Carol, but she has a habit of refraining from using Asgore's name directly out of spite so that stands out. I lean towards Toriel being innocently insensitive and not knowing how Rudy actually feels about Carol (a microcosm of her flaw towards Kris), but it could definitely be read as Toriel not respecting Carol enough to even refer to her by name and Rudy insisting she does.>>732312005I always interpreted Dess' behavior as a reaction to Carol being really controlling, and that whatever incident caused her to disappear was born of wanting to break free from that, and she doubled-down afterwards with Noelle. One of the major themes of Deltarune seems to be the failures of adults to their children and I imagine Carol's isn't that she wasn't strict enough in the past, but was too much and didn't learn from it even when it essentially killed her own kid.
>>732312471>the game is actually about how all those friends you made are meaningless fictionsBeing fiction doesn't make them meaningless>all of Susie's kindness to Tenna was completely pointless Yes. You're supposed to realize that her being emotionally distraught that a CRT TV got left our on the curb is not healthy or constructive.>and all of Ralsei's improvement and character growth was meaningless tooHe might get to be a real boy, if theories about what happens when a darkner is given a soul hold water>Susie's drive to defy the prophecy is drivel. actually we should all be good little boys and seal the fountains Her ambivalence towards the concept of fate has not resulted in any alternative to sealing the fountains.>it'd be the perfect resolution to a story about fate,The story isn't actually about fate. Kris is the one with the reigns in his hands, despite currently having incomplete control of his body. What's happening is not a prophecy, but a plan, with a specific goal.>making friends with all those Darkners and visiting this magic world of adventures is definitely going to end with destroying all of it because it was all fake and nothing that is fake mattersThere's nothing inherently wrong about indulging in fantasy. But doing so at the expense of neglecting your real friends and family is bad. If there is a bad end to this game, it will be the initiation of the roaring, the total breakdown of the barrier between light and dark, truth and imagination, embracing madness and "freedom" over acceptance and growth.>the Knight is actually completely justified in being a callous fuck who murders peopleThe knight hasn't killed anyone, probably.
>>732313026>The knight hasn't killed anyone, probablyIt sliced Tenna's fucking arms off and he would have died if the other Darkners had not interfered.>Yes. You're supposed to realize that her being emotionally distraught that a CRT TV got left our on the curb is not healthy or constructive.Why the fuck not, when this CRT TV has opinions, desires, thoughts and feelings of its own? Do you think the game is just completely lying to us all the time in all those chapters and actually all of this dialogue was fake? That's your idea of a good story?
>>732312478>that's clearly what Toby wants you to think, that the darkners are completely meaningless entity you can do whatever you want with, That's not what I said. They are fake, but how you would choose to interact with them and why is reflective of and can possibly effect YOU, so there is meaning in the choice, even without real consequences. >>732312553Kris is trying to avoid doing something he feels is "wrong" by impulse, not for any rational reason. There's probably also some uncomfortable feelings going on for him in terms of how the weird route may remind him of Dess.
>>732311186>The weird route is Marchepilled
but consider
>>732313026>There's nothing inherently wrong about indulging in fantasy. But doing so at the expense of neglecting your real friends and family is bad. If there is a bad end to this game, it will be the initiation of the roaring, the total breakdown of the barrier between light and dark, truth and imagination, embracing madness and "freedom" over acceptance and growth.The Titans are, explicitly, called "the fear of the dark." The devastating end of the world scenario of the game is the product of fearing the dark. Do you think this means nothing? Do you think the "dark" being feared and rejected was good actually? That you can protect yourself from their attacks by literally embracing the darkness in the form of rhe Mantle?You're completely retarded and ignorant. Deltarune has never and will never be a "actually escapism is bad, learn to live in the REAL WORLD" story.
>>732313160>when this CRT TV has opinions, desires, thoughts and feelings of its own? It doesn't. It's just a fucking TV. Everything "Tenna" is is just a personification of Kris's happy childhood memories watching TV with his firends and family. >Do you think the game is just completely lying to us all the time in all those chapters and actually all of this dialogue was fake? It's not fake, it's illustrative and allegorical.
>>732313357Chara is not in this game which is why you do nothing but shitpost 25 hours a day
>>732313417I literally just said there's nothing wrong with fantasy. I said the problem is trying to replace reality with fantasy.
surprise-surprise a bunch of I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S NOT A GENERAL faggots discussing some literally who's opinions because they are so starved for literally any sort of engagement about the glacially released furry adventurehere's a little spoiler: the game's gonna end on a "go outside and make friends" note, so you might want to get a headstart on it right now and stop posting immediately
>>732313584We stopped talking about the youtube lolcow hours ago
>>732313584why is your autistic hyperfixation the existence of singular deltarune threads? go shit up somewhere else
>>732313625you'll have to forgive me for not carefully reading the whole thread and keeping up with the hourly discussion topicthat sounds like some obnoxious general shitnot that anonymous' opinions are any better lmao, imagine missing the forest for the trees so hard
>>732313439>It doesn't. It's just a fucking TV. It isn't. You're just ignoring the actual fucking text in front of you. This game, this entire game, is about dehumanization. Kris is made a toy by us, and the Darkners are made toys by the Lightners, and those things are not good. They are not fair. They should not be like this. A Dark World is not a place of pure escapism, it is not a fiction. The Darkners are people.Hell, I do think we are going to come to understand the titans – because the darkness isn't something to fear at all! it's far from some inherently evil, inherently frightening force that must be mitigated lest there be "too much" of it, as the prophecy declares. the dark worlds are places full of people and life, struggling under the light worlds' rule and the constrictions therein.
>>732312962>whatever incident caused her to disappear was born of wanting to break free from thatThis would also tie into the overarching theme of freedom the game has going on
Wasn't Chapter 5 supposed to be out by now? Is it delayed?
>>732313580But the Dark Worlds are not fantasy. Hell, Ch3 fundamentally challenges this assumption with the in-universe console games. Tenna and Ramb act like "knights", shaping this pre-existing world of which we have no objective picture to their respective wills. Tenna wants to create a world where Kris can relive an imagined idyllic childhood, forget about their worries and where he can be given purpose again. Ramb, however, thinks Kris wants a game where they’re tasked with carrying out a microcosm of the weird route, and where he too can be given purpose again. Their opinions differ but both assert that Kris’ creation of the fountain is an extension of their apparent enjoyment of their fate and the darkners' alike. But, as we see, neither of them have any real read on the shape of Kris’ motives – Kris, as always, remains inscrutable, and doesn't seem to enjoy either. “Fun”, or "escape" especially the kind that comes from one's power over others and our power over them, doesn’t seem to be a factor. Deltarune challenges the assumption that a fantastical otherworld must be “escapist” than what came before it – reminders of the conflicts at hand lurk around every corner. the dark has never been an "escape", and i doubt the actual knight intends for it to be, either.
>>732313772>WAH WAH SOMEBODY MOCKED OUR THREAD ON A DRIVEBY OH GOD THE SAFESPACE CAN'T HANDLE THATriveting rebuttalfor your own benefit, i hope you are lying about the """singular""" part only to me, and not to yourselfor is your lot delusional enough to think you are subtle just because the threads are no longer 24/7? i even saw the girl-chara avatarfag on top, surely you can't pretend to be a normal recurring thread
>>732313890>This game, this entire game, is about dehumanization. It's actually about anthropomorphization and delusional projection. Spoiler alert, the big tear jerk scene at the end of the game is Kris having to come to terms with the fact that the knight is not actually Dess and she's been dead for years and isn't coming back.>Kris is made a toy by us, Kris summoned us into his world to serve as a determination battery since he gave away his own soul. He beats us and keeps us in a cage and hides his true intentions and misleads us about our purpose for being here. In 'exchange' we get some control over him and can screw with his social life if we want. It's a two way antagonistic relationship. >A Dark World is not a place of pure escapism, it is not a fiction. Cope and seethe, Susie. >because the darkness isn't something to fear at allCorrect. It's a force to be mastered.
>>732314157ooh, it's the schizonever mind then, i avoid bullying the mentally disabled on principle
>>732314271You're retarded. You're taking the assumptions of the game as neutral fact.The darkners are objects right now, and you think the associated fates the darkners have are are neutral. Abut in the end, such a thing being true of the darkners doesn't mean it can't be a bad thing or be challenged. it's the fate in our tale of defying fate. it's a societal structure that objectifies the darkners. it isn't something that's just "all in their heads" and we won't have to abandon the darkners to "grow up" or some retarded shit like that. That is part of susie's dilemma, in addition to her clinging to both her own and to tenna's fate as a validation of one's worth. She literally is the party's moral compass, she has no deception and no malice. When she decides she will break fate and will not accept the prophecy if it means terrible things will happen, she IS RIGHT. if the order of the world is terrible and cruel then it must be changed. she was literally pigeonholed into the role of a bad kid, should she just sit there and be that because it was her fate?the darkners are objects right now, and they can defy their fates. the structures of fate – the prophecy, the darkners' status as objects – exist, and they're not absolute. susie can get things wrong sometimes, and she can keep trying without letting "getting things wrong" brand her permanently as a "bad kid". and like you said, they aren't "real" right now – but that doesn't mean that they aren't simultaneously people who are shaped by and react to their fates in the way any person with those fates imposed upon them would-
>>732314063>Tenna wants to create a world where Kris can relive an imagined idyllic childhood, forget about their worries and where he can be given purpose again. Ramb, however, thinks Kris wants a game where they’re tasked with carrying out a microcosm of the weird route, and where he too can be given purpose again. Their opinions differ but both assert that Kris’ creation of the fountain is an extension of their apparent enjoyment of their fate and the darkners' alike.It's shocking that you can understand and type all that out and somehow NOT understand how this demonstrates the obviously ficticious nature of the dark world>But, as we see, neither of them have any real read on the shape of Kris’ motivesTrue, because people are messy and they change. Kris cares about different things now than he did watching TV and playing videogames as a child, but he still REMEMBERS those feelings, and has some degree of nostalgia for them. But we do know of one darkner that is very much in lockstep with Kris in respect to his current motivations, even if it's not yet entirely clear what those are.
where chapter 5?
>>732314034The answer depends on how up-to-date you are on Deltarune news. Chapter 5 was technically delayed, but that was, like, a year ago when it was decoupled from Chapter 3 and 4. It hasn't been delayed since then. Toby gave a rough release date of the latter half of this year.
>>732314337honored to have become THE schizo, especially hearing that from you, THE anonymous>clearly every hateful post is made by the single madman who just wants nothing more than to reduce our diverse community into an easily dismissed strawmani hope the irony is not lost on you at leastyou forgot to deflect to gacha- and microshill generals btw
>>732314623The Dark World is fictious. So is the game we are playing. Deltarune uses fiction as a framework often for the idea of fate. the light world characters are video game characters. Kris is your player character, Susie is the "bad kid", Noelle is the "girl next door" and the character that'd be the protagonist's love interest in any other game. They are more then that. They are more then their "fate." The darkners are objects – can you treat them as people? or will you use that role to justify dismissing their personhood? The prophecy treats the darkness as an inherently malevolent force, something to be stamped out and sealed away. and this is an archetypical thing for it to do, too. darkness tends to be synonymous with antagonism and aberrations on the "normal" world in not just rpgs, but in many different types of stories. but we see as we play that the darkness isn't an inherently malevolent force at all, the dark worlds are vibrant and full of people. the darkners are sympathetic characters that struggle against their fates as objects in the same manner anyone would. the dark world isn't a place that exists only as an aberration on the designated "good" light world, it's a world of its own full of struggling people branded as "the bad guys," and hey, haven't we seen one of our protagonists branded as "the bad guy" when she's a struggling person, too?The darkners being objects isn't unlike a story wherein a damsel in distress finds out she's quite literally been written as such. if that damsel could cast off the book she was written into and carve out her own identity, who's to say that the darkners can't cast off their status as objects and choose for themselves who they are?
>>732314581>it isn't something that's just "all in their heads" and we won't have to abandon the darkners to "grow up"That's exactly what it is actually.>That is part of susie's dilemma, in addition to her clinging to both her own and to tenna's fate as a validation of one's worth. She clings to him because she's a lonely antisocial doofus with 2 friends and serious attachment and abandonment issues. She projects her own insecurities about "being left on the curb" onto an obsolete hunk of consumer technology because that's easier than introspection. In fact she probably does not even conciously register the actual motivation.
>>732314907You are literally on the level of a guy who plays Mario and thinks the game is him hallucinating on shrooms
>>732314905>They are more then that.They aren't. You are playing a video game. That's not to say you can't or should't be compelled or moved by its story or characters, but how you choose to interact with it has no effects at all beyond revealing and possibly reinforcing your own tastes and preferences.
>>732314983You're the one arguing that imaginary friends and videogame characters are physically real outside of their fictional contexts
>>732314907This obsolete hunk can talk. No matter how you cope, it is obviously clear that it is a person. The fountain gave it life. It can be brought to Castle Town and engage in dialogue and meet other people and talk. The Darkners regularly do this without any of our interference. They expand the city. They talk to each other and organize businesses and events. Tasque Manager is singing in the bar when you boot up chapter 4 and visit Castle Town. this is a thing she clearly did on her own, that in no way follows from "task manager." If you want to pretend the Darkners are illusions that will need to be abandoned, then you are literally just ignoring the basic themes of the game.
>>732313584I swear people only give a shit about the no general rule when they don't like the game being discussed.
>>732315185When am I arguing this? I'm arguing they are physically real in the context of Deltarune. Which they are. I can take a shard of the Black Knife out of the Dark World and it is obviously a real object that has no analogue. The Dark World has an obvious physical presence upon reality and denying this is insane and moronic.
>>732315239>The fountain gave it life. The fountain manifested Kris's own memories into a puppet avatar of childhood nostalgia. He's only "alive" in the sense that he is a fragment of a living person's psyche.
>>732315117Are you saying then that there is zero complexity to be found in Noelle or Susie beyond the archetype, then? That Susie is indeed the bad kid and pic related is a cool thing? That fate is indeed something we need to kneel for? That the game made a big show of Susie smashing the final prophecy just to go "actually she was wrong! We should just accept that people are going to die and suffer and not stop that at all!"
>>732315339>I can take a shard of the Black Knife out of the Dark World and it is obviously a real object that has no analogue. That's because the black knife isn't just shadow magic. The knight isn't JUST a darkner, it has a soul, probably Kris's human soul, and it's covered in crystalized determination.
>>732315492No, I'm saying every bit of their nuance and complexity is intentionally designed and fundamentally still unreal even where they diverge from narrative convention.
>>732315518And shadow magic had no role in this at all? The Dark World didn't do anything I guess. The dark is just for decoration I guess, the Knight just manhandled a police officer with sheer force of will across the town and into the bunker.
>>732315616All characters are fictional, dumbass. Thsts what it means to be a character. It doesn't mean all stories are about how you should discard fictional things.
>>732315616>"Actually those characters are fiction! Ever thought about that????"great rebuttal nigga.
>>732315616>le fictional story is.... le fictional!Brilliant analysis
>>732315747>It doesn't mean all stories are about how you should discard fictional things.I didn't say that. I didn't even say that was the message of THIS story. I said one important message was not to allow imagination to get in the way of reality.
>>732315617The only reason the knight can do any of that is because Kris has specifically allowed it.
what the fuck is this autistic schizo threadthis is why people like shayy are able to groom children into trooning outgo the fuck outside or kill yourselves
>>732316000But that clearly isn't the message. Deltarune is a meta story exploring the idea of fate and hierarchy. Everyone you meet is, in some way, bound and trapped by their roles. You are literally bound in a cage, both in a literal cage an Kris being named a Cage by the prophecy. Kris doesn't want you and is trading their identity for you, becoming a person who isn't themselves, but is bound by a promise and some shadowy conspiracy, and is too a prisoner of the prophecy. Susie is a prisoner of a fate, a role imposed upon her. She was labeled a bad kid and denied a chance. The entire game repeats this over and over and over; the role a person has is not who they are. It's not who they HAVE to be. The Darkners being objects or "not real" is not a simple inescapable fact of reality. It is something that is imposed. A "role" or a "fate." And that can be changed; in fact it should.
>>732315616They won't understand it anon. They are watsonian homunculi only capable of diegetic interpretation. They think all the usual JRPG ramblings about destiny and prophecy extend to literally everything because of the meta layer.
>>732316231This game is literally a fundamental rejection of your standard JRPG rambling about destiny and prophecy. It's a game about BREAKING fate.
Im the knight
>>732316407ok dess.
>>732316381"Breaking fate" has been extremely standard JRPG faire since before you were fucking born
>>7323166841. It is not actually very normal for a JRPG to present the player with a true prophecy that will cause them misery and suffering, and it's not normal for them to rugpull you after you've spent a while performing the prophecy. When this is done, this is usually "the prophecy was actually a lie" or "the prophecy was made by a malicious entity." A good example is Bravely Default. It doesn't challenge the idea of a prophecy, you were just given a fake prophecy. 2. Even if that was the case, it's obvious that this is, in fact, what Deltarune is doing, and denying it is pointless. We aren't going to turn around and meekly kneel before destiny because actually growing up means accepting sometimes people suffer. Toby has always been openly idealistic in his games.
>>732316220No, retard, the game is not actually about ths oppression of imaginary friends. >and is too a prisoner of the prophecy. No. Kris is a fully willful participant of whatever is going on and may in fact be the mastermind of the whole project. I need to leave now. Please learn to understand stories while I am gone.
>>732316381Yeah sure alright, in the same way that UT was an ingenious subversion of the jarpig tropes like power of friendship and silent protagonist.>rejection>BREAKINGHey dipshit, when was the last time you saw a prophecy play out in the most straightforward manner? The reason you put a prophecy in the story is to twist it down the line, that concept is as old as Hellenic plays.
>>732316912>Hey dipshit, when was the last time you saw a prophecy play out in the most straightforward manner? The reason you put a prophecy in the story is to twist it down the line, that concept is as old as Hellenic plays.Hellenic plays do not question the concept of a prophecy. When a Greek hero receives a prophecy, he cannot break it. The prophecy may suck, individually, for him, but at no point does anybody walk into the Fates' house and strangle them for being cunts toying with people's lives.
>>732316894Ah, yes. This is such a mastermind. This is a person who totally knew what they were getting into. This is a person who is definitely behind all of this and is fully willful.
pick one
>>732316893it reminds me of doomed timelines in homestuck more than anything
>>732317179And doomed timelines in Homestuck weren't a very good thing for the characters and them escaping their "doomed nature" (such as by becoming Sprites) is seen generally as a good thing by the story.
>>732317165Noelle every time
>>732317240It's actually kind of interesting.Homestuck's stance on "you are fated to suffer" is "find a loophole in the rules to escape your fate." Deltarune's stance is "Fate can go fuck itself." It's an interesting way to build upon it.
>>732317240yeah thats why i believe in all three save files being required for the TRVE FINAL KINO ENDING
>>732317004Anon you are not helping the stereotype of a DT fanboy literally never playing any other game or reading any other story before. I assure you the prophecy will play out TECHNICALLY AS IS, however contrived, but will ultimately be twisted or misinterpreted in the first place. That is the narrative purpose of a prophecy in a story, and not the revelation that they are all fake (like they are irl).>at no point does anybody walk into the Fates' house and strangle themDo you expect that to happen here?>>732317106Kris having a master plan and Kris feeling miserable and Kris biting off more than he could chew are not mutually exclusively events. (YOU) do hold the keys to savescumming as the dude with the biggest determination number.
>>732317004Deltarune doesn't question the concept of a prophecy either, what are you talking about?
>>732317491>I assure you the prophecy will play out TECHNICALLY AS ISAnd you're wrong. Again, Susie, the moral compass of the party, smashed the prophecy up and declared she will break it. If you think this is going to end with her backing down on it and actually deciding to beat it on a technicality (SUCH a Susie move, lmao) you're just flat out wrong.>That is the narrative purpose of a prophecy in a story, and not the revelation that they are all fake (like they are irl)And as we all know people are all forcibly mandated to do things like the Greeks did, otherwise the secret hellenic assassin clan will sneak into their house and kill them.
>>732317689IT LITERALLY IS QUESTIONING THE CONCEPT OF FATE CONSTANTLY. Characters are CONSTANTLY bound and trapped by fates and roles and this makes them miserable and destroys them. The fate of being toys and servants to the Lightners drives Spamton completely bugfuck insane and causes him to destroy himself. The fate of being a servant to the Lightners causes Tenna to go completely fucking insane. We literally have a prophecy who will end in horrible tragedy and Susie declares her intent to break it. In the same chapter where Gerson helps her persue the career she is not innately suited for, healing and writing, and help his son with breaking free of the expectations his father placed upon him. what fucking world do you live in where Deltarune isn't a narrative that is critical of fate and roles?
>>732317732>beating the prophecy is "backing down" and Susie would never back down therefore Deltarune is going to be about how you don't have to follow propheciesWhat? What the fuck?>And as we all know people are all forcibly mandated to do things like the Greeks didNo, it's just that all the works that tried to use prophecies in other ways made less interesting stories. We know that you can't just tell the reader how some future event is going to go with no twists and no potential misunderstandings whatsoever, because that is fucking boring and serves zero narrative purpose.
>>732317887Characters who are in a bad position and suffer for it are just characters. That isn't "critique of fate". I can't understand what kind of point you're trying to make. What SHOULD Deltarune do?
>>732317927>No, it's just that all the works that tried to use prophecies in other ways made less interesting storiesokay, thank you for admitting you don't know shit about fuck, you retard.>We know that you can't just tell the reader how some future event is going to go with no twists and no potential misunderstandings whatsoever, because that is fucking boring and serves zero narrative purposeWhen we say "character is going to do X" it is perfectly possible for character to in fact do X. The question becomes "HOW will they do X???" Instead. You're illiterate.
>>732318076>you don't know anything!!!Then name some stories where a prophecy was presented as a simple straightforward thing that was going to happen, with no ambiguity whatsoever, and all the characters just took it in and moved on.>When we say "character is going to do X" it is perfectly possible for character to in fact do X. The question becomes "HOW will they do X???" Instead.... are you under the impression that the only kind of prophecy it's correct to put in a game is one where characters aspire to fulfill it and aren't worthy at first and have to work towards it? Finding a way to fulfill the wording of a prophecy that is on its face unfavorable to you is also a narrative struggle just as good.
>>732318049What it is already doing? Saying that the positions that the Darkners are in are not neutral facts. That they are beings with just as much right to exist as humans and that the dark should not be rejected or sealed, that their roles as toys and servants of humans are things they can move beyond and that they can claim their future. That Ralsei has the right to be his own person and his own being and not a tutorial bot. Do you think the enemies that will cause the end being literally the FEAR OF THE DARK (rather then the dark itself) means absolutely nothing?
>>732318205>Finding a way to fulfill the wording of a prophecy that is on its face unfavorable to you is also a narrative struggle just as good.Yeah, figure me out some beneficial wording of "AND THEN THE FINAL TRAGEDY AWAITS" nigga.
>>732318206I'm wondering what this has to do with prophecies. The prophecy doesn't say the Darkners have to stay as they are anywhere. The place the Darkners sit now is not affected by the prophecy.
>>732318263Yes, exactly. This is a monumental struggle worthy of taking up the rest of the plot. They're going to have to figure out something that is at best a shitty compromise. The idea that Toby is going to introduce a prophecy and just flatly have it not happen at the last second with no narrative rhyme or reason other than "Susie said she'd make it happen three chapters ago" is ludicrous.
>>732317732>the oblivious shonen-brained pseudo-protag says how she wants every day to be the same and for things to never end>clearly this is a setup for the conclusion to be about entering a high school slice of life lotus eater machine>because she is "moral compass" which means everything she says is correctWhatever you say bud. Just don't get upset when your expectations get subverted or some shit.
>>732310410My current guess is that the weird route is going to be mandatory. There are three codes to the shelter, and we seem to be going into three separate routes (normal, weird, and the Twisted Sword route where you go "in between" and get the Thorn Ring without performing Snowgrave). I think we might not be able to get to the final chapter without information from all three routes, transferred over onto one save in a similar way to previously claimed crystals being made available on other save files.
>>732318281It is? The Prophecy clearly states that the fountains- the origin of the Darkners- must be sealed. >THE LIGHT AND DARK, BOTH BURNING DIRE.>A COUNTDOWN TO THE EARTH'S EXPIRE.>IF FOUNTAINS FREED, THE ROARING CRIES.>AND TITANS SHAPE FROM DARKENED EYES.When both Light and Dark are present, when the fountains are burning and Darkners live, the countdown starts to tick. This is unnatural. This should not be. This pretty clearly states; the Light World existing is good, the Dark World should know its place.
>>732318438I wouldn't have written this post if I had noticed the thread was autosaging, fuck this board
>>732318386>>clearly this is a setup for the conclusion to be about entering a high school slice of life lotus eater machine"Maybe these people have the right to exist" is not in fact the lotus eater machine.
>>732318438I want to think weird route will be mandatory but it won't be THE ending, but lead to itthough people online (mostly twitter and reddit "fans") really hate the idea that an "evil" route will be mandatory
>>732318458Oh, so THAT'S where you're getting your perspective. Sorry, don't agree. The prophecy also includes the great fountain staying open and says more fountains than THAT is the problem.
>>732318352>The idea that Toby is going to introduce a prophecy and just flatly have it not happen at the last second with no narrative rhyme or reason other than "Susie said she'd make it happen three chapters ago" is ludicrousWhy? Why should every prophecy be forced to happen? Why isn't "Susie figures out a way to defy the very underlying mechanisms of the world" not a struggle equally as interesting, and of a more idealistic nature rather then the cynical "they figure out how to make it suck slightly less."
>>732318536That's what I meant to say, right, the weird route won't be THE ending but to get THE ending you're going to have to go to the festival with Noelle while Pumped Up Kicks starts playing, because it's the only way to get one of the codes. I wouldn't be surprised if the save file just bricks (in the sense that you have to erase it, not that the slot becomes permanently unuseable) after you do it, but it lets you get the code in any other playthrough without having to do it. We have three save files for a reason
>>732318616I mean, they could introduce a real way for Susie to change the prophecy in the next three chapters, but it'd have to have some seriously superb secret background setup to feel justified coming up this late.So, prophecies happening remains the default, and Susie's intent to make it better will be expressed as making a non-shitty interpretation.
>>732318562It doesn't really. The Great Fountain is literally empty. It produced nothing on its own but Ralsei, and we don't even know if that's how he was actually produced. The "approved" fountain is the sterile one. Not to mention we don't even know if the Great Fountain is approved. It might, in fact, be sealed at the end according to the prophecy.>A WORLD BASKED IN PUREST LIGHT.BENEATH IT, GREW ETERNAL NIGHT.The prophecy very clearly holds the Light world as true and the dark world as lesser, beneath it. The Light World and the Dark World both being thriving and growing is cause for the end of the world. It is an unnatural occurrence. The Dakr World is beneath, supposed to be beneath. Darkners are meant to serve.
>>732318769Even if I accept your incredibly bizarre hierarchical-relationship centric interpretation of the prophecy, I have to wonder why I'm supposed to object to its attempted subversion. But your interpretation is an enormous stretch based primarily on your own biases.
>>732318886It is very clear in this story that:1. the Darkners have a hierarchical relationship that places them beneath the Lightners. They are meant to make them happy and serve them, by providing them with something such as entertainment. They have to be useful to the Lightners.2. This is not good for them. We see this in characters such as Spamton, Tenna, or even Queen. This is a highly negative influence of the Darkners. They are led to terrible places by this obligation to "be useful." They don't do it just because of some innate need either. Tenna is doing all that he does in great part because he is terrified of being discarded. 3. The Prophecy supports the repression of the Darkners. It wants the fountains closed, and the fountains give them form. At best it wants a sterile, lifeless fountain around. It doesn't necessarily want them in Castle Town; befriending Darkners is something you do entirely of your own choice and it chugs along regardless.
>>732317165Deer
>>732319172The Darkners being useful is their natural state. Every way in which their desire to be useful goes awry can only come up when they and lightners are both in a dark world, and so far it's always been one outside of the great fountain.Knowing this, the idea that they'd be unhappy with the fountains closed and the point of the prophecy is for them to just suck it up seems wrong.
