Is this advice the reason why all successful new indie IPs are phone game tier slop?Everyone's making the game equivalent of TikToks now instead of passion projects
>>732313646Cutting your teeth on lots of small games can work well, but it's not for everyone. Here's the northern journey dev talking about ithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIjt1mKWn4o
>>732313646Unc seriously thinks we want to play his old slop games, I'm dead
>>732313646He's correct because these new indie devs are inexperienced and if they try to make the big one right away they'll simply fail.
>>732313646That advice smells like shit. So yes.
>real player feedbackNever fall for this. No player is going to respect some cuck that changes his work for the most annoying community members.
If you want money, thean yeah work for money.If you want a compromise of passion and profit, then chase your dreams.I rather be a Tarn/Toady than MegaBonk Dev.
>>732313927You forgot the keyword 'real'. Let me help refresh that spark in your heart from that cold hate against retards(its ok, you are justified)>bad>ummm but if im the center of the universe, i think this character should be gay, this character should be a whore with big tits, also you need my political views there to own them! i hate those them and this needs to make them mad>good>Hey, I know you meant for game to have x mechanics mainly, but I really like y aspect of your game. Have you considered improving it via A B or C?>I know this unintended gameplay, but i do xyz for fun and found these bugs>I love your vision, i have similar but im not a gamedev. Have you considered feature x or z?
>>732313646Account based in India
>>732313798And yet there's been no update on his new games in three years. Curious!Please
>>732313646my advice
>>732314642(total projects actually finished: 0)yeah awesome lol
>>732313646I think Notch did it right.
>>732313646>5 yearsModern devs just fucking suck at their job man
>>732314642Don't do this you'll end up with a directionless game
>>732313828So where are all the successful examples of left? People on the just churn out shitty clones of bejewled or whatever then post on Reddit about how in hindsight, it was lack of marketing that caused them to sell <4 copies.
>>732315808I thought the point of the small games was to train and experiment not to sell them
>>732313646I feel like it'd make sense to keep on building on the capabilities of each entry. As in youre just building on top of each game to make it more a little more complex each time.
>>732313646Its an incomplete picture. You should only do this when starting out. Don't go straight to your magnum opus. Make small projects, differing in genre from your dream game. Only when you are ready should you tackle the big boy.
>>732314852I know this wasn't an attack but it still hurt to read>t. total projects actually finished: 0
>>732313646this advice is blatantly wrong, the top tip is make a patreon game with furry, futa, and add a tier to put peoples ocs in the game. now you too can spend 10 years making 0.5% progress towards completion while making thousands a month.
small scope does not mean phone game.think about how many people used flash to whip together lots of projects and then eventually pivoted to making actual commercial projects like Alien Homonid, N++, and Super Meat Boy.Doing game jams or participating in TIGSource contests are a good way to test yourself and stay limber and lean as a designer and software architect. Way too many projects die on the vine because some dewy-eyed moron thinks he's gonna make the next Mario and become a billionaire but has no idea how to design, iterate, and actually finish a project.>>732314642the problem with this is that you become dissatisfied with your past work and you enter a cycle of not knowing what you actually want because you're refactoring the entire codebase or redesigning the entire damn game, again.Just stick to your idea, but know what's too big a bite for you to chew. Hell, most scope creep happens because you keep wanting to add MORE THINGS. Instead of that, just have some of those things be their own project that can get fleshed out and proper attention if you find that they have potential, instead of stapling it to your alleged magnum opus that will eventually become unfocused due to a lack of cohesion in your own headspace.
>>732317247It WAS an attack, though a minor fairly harmless one. It's more stressing a point if you juggle and bounce between so many projects idk how you'd ever get one done. I'm of the opinion you should just hunker down on the current project and finish it, do not spread yourself thin, and get it done. Once it's done apply what you learned in the next project.I agree with OP though to keep Projects relatively short in scale, a few months at most, and don't shoot for massive year long project. Just my thoughts
>>732314852total projects actually finished: 1
>>732314642Only do this if your "side project" is something like a single 3D model/scene, random 2D artwork, song, or short story
>>732317512>>732315125i understand this mindset but i think it really depends on what exactly your side projects are
>>732313927thiswe understand that 90% of people are retards, yet we expect devs to listen to those same people, when it means 90% of feedback is dogshit that will ruin the game?
>>732313646UOH
>>732314942Notch made a shitty tech demo that was a rip off of an existing indie game and then cashed out when it blew up thanks to being astroturfed on 4chan and youtube
>>732315808look outside was shat out in half a year for a game jam, and it became a hit for a while. i want to say balatro and vampire survivors too because they're pretty simple games but apparently those took 2 years to make, so what the fuck do i know
>>732313646The point is that there's a learning curve. >>732316280Yes, however, learning how to sell your game is also a skill. The big difference is that shit post flash and itch allow for super cheap trash to get you SOME money. That used to not be the case. >>732315808Plenty on newgrounds. More than a few on itch. Off the top of my head:Zun.Tom, FulpEd Mcmillen Derek YuAlec Holowka
>>732314642>side project was literal canjam shovelware to fund main game>ends up performing significantly better and selling more than previous "main" game>devs seethe>but also milk the fuck out of it
>>732318648>made a shitty tech demo that was a rip off of an existing indie gameWhy would this be bad for someone new to gamedev to do? There's a clear goal for you, all you have to do is figure out how they did it.
>>732313798Not gonna watch cuz I'm busy, but Northern Journey was sick
>>732315808Terry Cavanah made a lot of games before he made it big (relatively speaking) with VVVVVVEdmund McMillen has a large back catalog of games long before Super Meat Boy. Derek Yu didn't shit out Spelunky on a whim, he was an active participant in the TIGSource forums and was always making small projects.It's not some farfetched concept, it's literally how most early indie devs got their foot in the door by having a damn portfolio before hitting it big with a publisher to fund them or even just getting help with porting to consoles. It still works as general advice, if you were to go to school for a programming class you'd be tasked with making several small scope projects to prove your aptitude with the material.
>>732313798That seems like really good advice.He mentioned making the game he actually wants (and not shittier trainer games) because he knows that's what's actually going to motivate him.Also it seems sensible to work on your "dream game" rather than a practice game of radically different scale and therefore style/format: if you want to make an fps one day, but you start with sidescrollers because they're easier, you won't be practicing skills necessary for making an fps.
>>732315808The five nights at freddies guy is probably the quintessential "make a tonne of shitty little games before one of them is suddenly a giant hit" indie dev
>>732318648why didn't the existing indie game blow up then?
>>732313927that is only a narrow aspectit includes written communication but it also includes analyticsand not every game has to be an "Early Access in Development for 10 years" game where development is actually steered by community feedback
>>732314852look at the right side of the memeretard
>>732319559Not enough jewtubers playing it
>>732313646>do the 5 year game>realize partway through you no longer have any passion for the project or that you fucked up something at the core>constantly have to go back and redo things because either you didn't plan for them in the past or you've grown too much and there's noticeable differences in quality>have to figure out your living situation for five years>have to figure out the publishing process and the timing for marketing your five year game with no previous experience>if the release fails then five years have gone down the drainIf you've got enough fire in you to go for a five year game then so be it, but starting small is so much better for your life. I made a shitty small game a long time back and it put me ahead of almost all the other applicants for a job I got, simply because I had experience publishing and they didn't.Also a theoretical thing you can do is split your 5 year game into a bunch of smaller projects that build up. You could make an arena game that's just perfecting your combat system, then next game you put that combat in dungeons, then next game you start tying things together with an overworld and quests, etc.
>>732318758What was their original "main" game?
>>732313646This advice works for either:A. learning the ropes with some test gamesor B. profits being your main goal, so you go quantity > quality (not inherently bad games, just simple games)If you are doing it for the passion then don't be daunted by any arbitrary goals beyond having a realistic attainability, don't just be an ideas guy and practice a little first. You'll still most likely accomplish more by chasing simpler games within your passion if you split your dream idea(s) up into separate ideas, but if you wanna go the Team Cherry or Toby Fox route AFTER proving yourself it's fine as well, just make sure you already have a decent-enough income.
>>732313646Making good small games really pushes your game design chops to new heights, especially if you try scoping something that feels grand into a small project. It's exactly what indies should be doing. Let the AA's and AAA's add production values to proven concepts.
>>732313646One of reasons flash games were good was that devs were learning shit with each new game while putting them out pretty frequently It requires mindset to actually improve yourself and your games to work tho
I made a bunch of shitty mobile games, didn't go well. Released a game on steam, 3 years later its made maybe 1000 bucks. I couldn't afford to advertise, didn't wanna do the twitter shit. Got a job doing Unity related slop, quit that after learning real webdev and Azure, 3 years later I have a piss easy job that allows me to work on my own shit whenever I want and I make 120k which is great cause I live in the middle of nowhere.Don't do game dev as your first dev, get a gig making web shit or whatever. Pump out some real side projects, nothing crazy but use new tech, with AI its easy. Now I could go back to game dev, probably make a living, OR I can make a living making in house apps for a non-tech company AND roll the dice on big boy shit. I'm drunk. Just like make anything other than a game. I'm telling you, you aren't Toby Fox. Unless you're an artist first and dev second, then go for it. If you're a code monkey like me just stick to code.
>>732325370>I'm telling you, you aren't Toby FoxNo one else has the creator of Homestuck shilling for their game
>>732313646>just churn out a bunch of shit that you don't care about for years of your lifeWhy would anyone even bother making an indie game if they aren't trying to make a game that they would actually want to play?If you actually want to play some mobileslop-tier trash that was made in 6 months you should be euthanized btw
>>732314642>fuck up walljump once>have to start main project from scartch>all side projects suddenly unusable failures
>>732318758>>side project>>ends up performing significantly better and selling more thanI've heard that story beforehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcUqwMf01pI
>>732313646Absolute garbage person take.Like if you are a music guy, you prolly have huge ideas for songs, but its great to just finish some smaller idea's. Like small songs and not 200 layered 16 minute epics. You learn a lot from finishing smaller projects and going straight for the big one is a dumb idea, thats what being said here
>>732326550That makes sense when talking about things like songs where you can finish one in a week or two, not games where is a 3-4 month project minimum
>>732313646To be fair Game Jams are a great way for amateur devs to get their toes wet and develop skills.>Based around a core idea/concept>Very short time to get something out >Restrictions can help you with creative problem solving Short, restrictive little projects like that are just a nice way to test concepts you might have and help you understand what works and what doesn't work so when you eventually go to bigger more long term projects you've got the confidence to know you won't be wasting your time on shit that won't work.
>make mass-produced products rather than craft a masterpiecewhy are zoomers like this? complete lack of patience
What type of slop garbage can you even make in 2 months?Some of my favorite indieshit games took years to make.
>>732326972It's enough for a bare-bones concept. Once you have something with potential down, it's worth expanding on it.
>>732327583Sure, but OP's image implied that a game can be shit out in 2 months. A newgrounds flash game tier product, sure. Something that people would want to buy though?
>>732327641The image doesn't say (or imply) anything about buying.
>>732318665>look outside was shat out in half a year for a game jam, and it became a hit for a whilethat dev's entire development style is an example of the small-projects big-project dynamic. his itch account is full of game jam entries and concepts, his pixel art style was developed out of necessity. look outside is what blew up but he was acquiring skills all this time, while still working on his big game.
>>732313646True. Wasted many many years trying to make big games. All my games that I've actually made and released(and soon to be released), have taken under 8 months (probably could be distilled to under 5 months if I stopped fucking around and treated it like a job).The funny thing about making lots of small games, is that it allows you to make a bigger game later due to being able to re-use tons of stuff that you made in your previous games. Made a small third person platformer in 5 months? For your next project, you want to make a 3rd person platformer, but much bigger? You've literally ALREADY got probably half of the mechanics done just by using your previous game as a base for your new game.
>>732319032The thing is that 95% of the time, your "dream game" is actually garbage. As you develop small games you realize things about game development that just won't work with your dream game.
>>732313646>Is this advice the reason why all successful new indie IPs are phone game tier slop?No valve's pigshit recommendation algorithm that only promotes the latest slop pushed by ecelebs is why passion projects died.
>>732313646Im not making my game because I want it to be a million seller, im making my game because I want to play it, and if I want to play it then im sure there are others who will appreciate it too. Even if its not perfect I will make it fun and it will come out, even if it takes me decades. Im not doing it for money, im doing it to give back to a medium that has given me so much. If your attitude when working on your projects isnt "I want to make something that I want to see mlre of, that im passionate about" youre doing it wrong. Whether its a small project you make in a day or a project yoh spend a decade on, all that matters is that it was what you wanted it to be. And if youre not happy with how its turning out dont be afraid to delay it, or take a break from it and come back with a fresh perspective.
