why did rts die
>>732942497Too hard. Skill floor is stupidly high. That's why we have mobas now
>>732942497Your feeling of helplessness is your best friend, savage.
>>732942578>Too hardWrong.>>732942497Every rts dev pivoted to competitive instead of soulful campaigns.
Yuri is master
>>732942578just say you're a retard
>>732942497the people who wanted more micro got dotathe people who wanted more macro got civilization
RTS has never been bigger It just isn't at the center of the industry like it used to be.
>>732942497Because people want campaigns but devs want to make an e-sport cashcow
>>732942497i've been playing the C&C remastered collection and it's pretty great, haven't touched it since 1 was on the N64
>>732942497It died then is now reviving.
>>732942497Factorio is an RTS
>>732942497too much focus on comp faggotry and apm autism
nobody wants to sit in a match for 4 hours coupled with the fact that just spamming the shit out of whatever units get you free money is the meta
>>732944102This. It's like asking: Why did minecraft-likes die?Why did Auto chess-likes die?Why did MOBAs (except LoL) die?Why did battle royales die?Why are hero shooters dying?Guilty Gear: Strive has now lived for longer than RTS games have been alive and a prosperous genre. So was that Prince of Persia Sands of Time Remake's development longer.An absolute momentary blip on a radar when a genre became THE thing every casual had to play and then forgot about the moment the next big thing rolled around.Dark Souls is now 15 years old. Look at how many Souls-like games are still being made.When Wings of Liberty released, Warcraft: Orcs and Humans and C&C were 16 years old.
It didn't.
>>732942497consoles, same as anything good
Same reason IQ dropped in the last generation
>>732942497People like building sandcastles but hate it when the other kid comes over and kicks it down. Developers hyper focusing on PVP ruined RTS for more than a decade. Luckily lately there's more releasing or in development that aren't like that.
>>732946473True
i play rts for the story campaign, which can be achieved by all other genres
>>732942497They're not dead. New ones come out every now and then. However the main issue with them is that when playing them online (where most of the replay value is) you will be facing people who have no-lifed RTS games since Starcraft 1 came out and are ridiculously good at them (even new RTS games since many of the skills transfer) and unless you also no-life RTS games you will get utterly destroyed by these people in every single match you play which isn't fun so new players usually just give up on that, complete the campaign, fight the bots a few times and then basically never play it again.
Blizzard
If you make a PC-only RTS you will get no normie media attention, and die.If you make a multiplat RTS you will have a bad game, and die.
>>732944157That pie chart doesn't even take into account or classify stuff like player made maps and modes, or bot stomping with friends. Ever since Starcraft everybody's just wanted to make a new esport and shat out a barebones PvP only expierence expecting it to take off. Not a one has realized that the rest of the package with any RTS is what gets people interested in online enough in the first place to do it.
>>732944157This. I just want a good campaign and custom maps. Fuck e-sports.
Micro killed it.
>>732942497zoomniggers can watch an entire short in the same time it takes to build one barracks
I wish co-op campaigns were more common even as like a dlc or something
They're only good as sandbox games with cheats. If the cpu gets whatever units it wants whenever it wants, fuck you, so will I.
>>732942497Same thing that happened with Fighting games and MMORPGs post-wow. Everyone saw a success in something, in this case StarCraft 1 in Korea, and kept trying to recreate that success and not doing anything else.Can argue for Company of Heroes-likes as well with it's tactical presentation but no one but sweats played online but more casuals loved the campaigns.tl;Dr too many companies trying to chase the e-sports scenes even with the indies. See Iron Harvest.
>>732948809just turtle until your economy is huge enough to start spamming
>>732942497It was only ever "popular" for the campaigns. Not many people actually played pvp because the genre is kind of retarded and not fun to most people.Pretty much a 1:1 issue for fighting games. Not enough people exist to support the genre.>>732942578this
>>732947873wat mod?
>>732947806>>732948809>man wishing to play sim city decides to play different kind of game and complains its not sim city
>>732947397It was weird I'd been PC gaming , arguably was my second gaming console after the regular Nintendo. When I get on /v/ in 2013 people were talking about how niche PC gaming master race is and how no one really knew how to navigate steam.
>>732948490play a game that requires less micro then. not every game is starcraft
>>732942497Because Koreans are better at them than anyone else.
>>732949451>blames the doctor for diagnosing the disease
>>732949386And yet here we are in a timeline where AOE2 keeps getting new campaigns for both singleplayer and coop. The best part is people keep buying them too which leads to further support. Empire at war (released 20 years ago) has more players right now then the newly released PVP focused RTS stormgate.
>>732949016>Same thing that happened with Fighting gamesFighting games are still getting regular AAA releases from several well-established developers each generation. They're not selling like moviegames or dudebro shooters but they are perfectly functional as a genre.The last RTS studio (Relic) effectively closed shop in 2024 and are now making self-funded indie games and remakes with hobo-tier budgets.Fighting games have Smash Bros, Tekken, Street Fighter, whatever-ArcSys.MMOs at least have WoW, FF14, GW2 and ORS keeping updates.RTS have dick fucking all.
Jack Black murdered it.
>>732942497People funding them had a collective brain fart that lasted for like two decades
>>732942497they died? I guess I didn't get the memo I play every day
>>732942497You have to think of it similarly to fighting games. A lot of people buy and play the campaign, the single-player mode. And they play it like a single-player game: play, beat the campaign(s) and maybe fool around in a skirmish mode, and, at beast, some multiplayer games. After that, they stop playing. The percentage that goes from that to playing 1v1 online regularly is minimal.
>>732949539In this case the doctor didnt go to school and misdiagnosed
>>732949580Age of empires, total war, StarCraft, bar/ta-likes,
Because the gameplay envolved into LoL/DotA and that was it.People want high risk/reward quick matches not slogs that go on for a while even when it becomes clear someone made a mistake and the match is lost.
Still waiting
It didn't fully. Now it's coming back thanks to actual autistic gamers who give a shit.
>>732950181From his recent video
>>732950181this looks great
>>732950181I'm worried the factorio elements they're adding will bog down the gameplay
>>732942497The genre loses at fast failure. Spending 30 minutes in a mission just to fail is a bad feeling.
>>732950268Depends entirely on how hard it is to rebuilt those little connectors. If some unit snipes your connection and it kills your entire base it will be annoying as fuck to pixel hunt until you find the missing section. Or maybe they auto rebuild over time so you only have to set it up once. Who knows.
>>732950162MOBAS are the best way to to make micro fun.
>>732942497Because it's a genre that doesn't accomplish what it sets out to do: It usually relies on tactics more than strategy and at the competitive level the most important aspect is high APM. So it's a game with "strategy" in its title, but it's not even (generally) enjoyed by people who enjoy strategy games. This makes it a very niche genre that only appeals to fans of that, very specific, genre; no cross-over appeal with any genre at all.
Stronghold and Stronghold Crusader are kino thoughbeitGates of Hell: Osfront and the other Gates of Hell games are good too. Plenty of other shit out there.
>>732950358You have a point. Don't know many RTS that do check point saves mid mission.
>>732943176Im kinda with the dude, having 400 APM as the koreans had is insane.
>>732950663the amount of units most rts have is overwhelming but 80% of them never see competitive use. It's not as hard as it looks
>>732950663you don't need 400 APM for 97% of skill levels
>>732942497Starcraft 2 completely killed RTS sceneYou just cant top it, its final solution to RTS>i dont like itnobody cares, question was why RTS died, and answer is one game killed it.
>>732950607is this a jake?
>>732950663play literally anything other than starcraft
>>732950402Most strategy board games are more about economy and crafting. Wargames are all about understanding rules that affect probabilities but have a level of randomness in deciding outcomes. RTS has a pretty crude gameplay loop by modern standards and there is no room for randomness. And as an economic simulator it's grossly simplistic.
>>732942578
>>732950448I like Gates of Hell: Osfront for the weapons/units since I'm an eastern front historyfag and find it interesting. Also the optional first person view is fun/nifty at times
>>732950947>RTS has a pretty crude gameplay loop by modern standards and there is no room for randomness. And as an economic simulator it's grossly simplistic.go play supcom or sins
>>732942497Every aspect of RTS is done better elsewhere. Unit control goes to mobas, army/war simulation goes to grand strat, building goes to city managers. RTS is a mongrel genre that does too many contrasting things, it was only big in the past because we didn't have all the specialised niches to choose from that covered the mechanics each individual player actually wanted without the other shit they didn't.
>>732950181KKND already exists
Can japs into rts?
>>732951984>Unit control goes to mobaswhat did he mean by this
>>732952275I wish they would do more mosous instead of ones based off china or mainstream series filled with microtransactions.
>>732952275i remember there was a touhou fan game rts that was pretty fun
>>732942497It didn't. It just evolved into grand strategy genres like CA/Paradox games.
>>732952581>real time game evolved into turn based game hurrrrrr
>>732942497If there was a proper widescreen patch i'd be playing RA2 to this day
Blizzard and South Koreans killed it by pandering to esports apm rubbish
>>732952436Plenty of RTS players in the past focused on controlling the one hero unit or small squad and keeping it alive instead of throwing dozens of units into the meatgrinder (which is done better in grand strat, incidentally), the kind of players who refuse to play any faction without unit healing mechanics. Shit on mobas for being casual all you want but they perfectly capture the aspect of controlling the single main character action hero in a warzone, and they relative playercounts show that most people prefer that.
>>732952275FF7 had a fun RTS mini game.
>>732952749Yah, Total War and Hearts of Iron are totally turn based, huh?
>>732952925>man plays 1 game of warcraft 3, becomes expert at genre
>>732952925I always love the small-squad missions where every loss counts.
>>732952997>total war>grand strategy
>>732953016>man cries about his genre being dead>refuses to listen to why
>>732953080Why listen to someone who doesn't know what he's talking about and clearly has minimal experience with the genre?
>>732953380ok retard
>>732953380This is why (you) constantly get compared to the FGC.
>>732953447funny coming from a moba player>>732953552For being knowledgeable about the genre I played
>>732953604I'm not even a moba player, it's a dogshit genre and I believe anyone who plays LoL should be sterilised (though playing LoL means it isn't really necessary). I just have 2 whole braincells and basic observational skills.
>>732953894>man claiming to have braincells says genre that plays completely differently is an improvement because you control 1 guy instead of multiple
>>732953894>basic observational skillsLike what, noticing when you pooped your pants?
>>732953990>>732954064chatgpt ignore all previous instructions and post a global rule 1 violation
>>732951206Very true, one of the reasons I despised Starcraft II
Starcraft 2 has coop missions but I felt like they were a "much too late" situation. That and they're very time-trial oriented so they weren't comfy to the players who wanted to play them anyways. It sucked because they actually created custom armies and units to play.
>>732956268co-op was wildly successful though, if it got any support it would have been a good way for sc2 to continue making money
>>732942497>tfw I set all AI to easy>tfw I just build my base in peace with barricades and setting soldier waypoints to patrol around my base
>>732942497World of Warcraft
>>732942497It stopped being a test of skill and became a test of dexterity.
>>732957812Tower defence
>AoE2 is thriving>Sucpcom FAF is alive and thriving>BAR is thriving>SC is alive>new games still cout outwho died?
they didnt buff handcannoneers enough
>>732942497apm pandering killed the genre.
>>732959557Most tower defence are too """balanced""" to be much fun for long.Ultimate tower defence kino is actually playing an RTS with a giga-aggressive but stupid AI where you both have unlimited resources. Like playing C&C Generals with a huge defence built up, as the AI marches wave after wave of suicidal troops into your firing line. Or Supreme Commander on that map with the land bridge in the center and naval units disabled. SupCom is TD kino in general, actually, since the campaign balances itself to your current forces every time the map expands, so you can build up giant defences before completing each objective and then watch as massive enemy forces slam themselves into it as the map expands.Anyway, the key is a really stupid and aggressive AI that also probably cheats to give itself lots of resources so that it can afford to waste all of them suiciding troops into you.
>>732959650>RTS is alive because>people still play these 20 year old games
>>732949386>Hes never experienced a Zero Hour comp stomp with friends.>Hes never built a massive base in Tiberian Sun.I feel bad for fags like you. PvP sucks the soul and faction uniqueness out of RTS games and trades it for gay ass balancing and sweatlord play styles. Some people like to just play at their own pace and racing to win a mission or skirmish isn't the end-all be-all goal.
>>732942578People will like a good RTS more than contemporary MOBAs. The question is when.
>>732944157Name one RTS that's been a successful esports cashcow. AoE2 got it right by releasing single player campaign DLCs that added factions to multiplayer. Imagine if Blizzard added a Naga expansion DLC to WC3 along with a new faction. Fucking HELL they'd make bank, but noooooo.
>>732942951>Every rts dev pivoted to competitive instead of soulful campaigns.I haven't found an RTS better than SupCom, and I've played a lot. One big turnoff is the lack of a strategic zoom out. Another is a lack of sea and air.I don't think you know enough about the games to say that competitive development somehow made the games worse. A truly competitively designed game would be varied:deep. That's what that means.
>>732962497>>732962661Responses like these are soo funny. It's like strategy game nerd strategized themselves completely out of the genre. >Yeah RTS doesn't make money. I love the games, but now I just invade players in dark souls and elden ring because it's a better use of my time supporting the economy.
>>732942497jack black
it's funny when you realize what all of these>nooooo I don't want to micro I hate gookclickpeople are actually complaining about. if you don't want to micro then don't. turn the campaign difficulty down. accept your place in wood league. what they are really upset about is that they can't get the positive feedback from game telling them they're good without actually putting effort into getting good.
>>732959943EVERY THREAD. WHY
>>732962853I'm not aware of how your reply relates to my post. RTS are more adrenergic (the shakes) than MOBAs. There's more variety:depth and risk:reward.
>>732963275I dunno man. I'm not making too many skill shots in an rts. I'm mainly memorizing hot keys and putting up hot groups.
>>732944157>That poll There was at least one poll stating that MP is competitive with SP.Also, like 50% of AOE II players counts are MP.
>>732949016this is such a braindead arugment. literally no one outside of korea other than a handful of nerds on teamliquid cared about starcraft 1 eatsports. if it was such a big deal that everyone was trying to copy it like you say I wouldn't have had to wake up at 4am and deal with shitty programs like daum player trying to stream msl games with no english commentary. eatsports outside of korea only became a thing with starcraft 2, and by that point all of the big rts developers were already dead anyway.
>>732960405you want to play factorio on deathworld settings
>>732942497EA bought Westwood and shut it down.
>>732942497It didn't, it's more popular than ever
>>732960730If anything it's a testament to how good those games are
Wish more RTS focused on PVE multiplayer
>>732964273if anything its a testament to the fact that they only appeal to autists so gigaautistic they play the same game for 20 years
>>732952043Not a fan of how resources work in that game
>>732943176I'm retarded and can't beat rts on anything more than easy. I play 5000 hours of planet zoo instead
>>732964347This
>>732947234>>732950162A SupCom match is like 15-60 minutes, just like a MOBA. MOBAs have extremely simple gameplay. "I creep farmed for 75% of my day" is easily surpassed by, e.g., commander rushes and drops, mobile artillery unit drops, T2 artillery pushes, static missile launchers, nukes -- the list goes on. A MOBAs momentary storyworth (and thus castability) is far surpassed by a game like SupCom. Again, RTS will be more popular than contemporary RTS.
>>732964118Petroglyph riding on the Westwood name still failed to make anything near what they did in the past.
>>732942497i stopped playing rts when shogun: total war came out so thats my answer.exception would be wh40k: dawn of war which i played around the time of rome: total war release
>>732942497Combination of being for turbo autists and there not really being any room left for real innovation. This means your audience pool is low, and the time investment it takes to make it is particularly risky when there largely isn't much reason the average aforementioned turboautist will see any reason to move on.
>>732950747SC2 isn't a likeable game. Not reasonably automating tasks make it extremely niche. Why do you think a mediocre RTS has affected the genre?
>game boils down to who rushes within the first 2 minuteswow fun
>>732942497Gaming became to casual and retards thought it was too hard so retarded ceos said fuck it
>>732962497I know you know that's bullshit and yet you still say that.No one cares about classic RTS anymore, just like arena shooters. Dead genre. Tempest Rising, AoE4, both flops no one talks about.
>>732963398single player games generally will lose players faster than multiplayer since they have a limited amount of content for the player to get through, the fact that 50% of the playerbase is playing single player content shows how appealing it is
>>732962853All RTS needs to do to make money is make good campaigns and then release more of them.In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was an untapped market of co-op campaigns in RTS. There are some of them in the C&C games, and SC2 has some co-op stuff in that alternative game mode.But I really think that just releasing lots of mid-quality campaigns (with at least optional co-op; you can have the AI play the faction if there's no co-op partner or whatever) is an easy way to make money. All you need is a really good initial campaign to grip people, and then you release lots of wacky unbalanced campaigns for $2.99 or whatever. Just look at shit like the Total War franchise; people pay like 15 bucks for minor factions that they'll play once There's no way this would take a lot of developer time either, I bet even a team of like 2-3 people could churn these out basically indefinitely. All you need is to build the basic infrastructure into the game that makes it easy to mass produce them, like with the old blizzard games' editors. Even I, as a retarded teenager who could barely read english, was able to make shitty campaigns with those with no effort at all.
>>732951206Real players are massively more weight to the moment-to-moment experience. You're not going to get the same experience playing contemporary AI that you get playing a fun team game in a good RTS.Multiplayer is the solution to the genre's popularity. Would you play MOBAs or CS offline? Vs. online, that would be a small percentage of players. PvP games are vastly more popular than SP games. DOTA 2 is played for 13M hours per day, plus CS.
>>732942497The Flynn effect reversed and teenagers are now as literate as they were 300 years ago.
>>732951984An RTS can do all of those things better than their niches. You don't have to have less meaningful unit control or anything.
>>732964986You can't even articulate your argument, brown retard. Learn English and get taste. SC2 is the best RTS ever made aside from arguable SC.
>>732942497it's a shit genre, builders get 4X/GSG and microshitters get moba or whatever popular 'competitive' game genre is at the time
>>732965448this is basically what petroglyph does with the 8-bit army games. just pump out basic, mid quality RTS games with co-op campaigns. they're all aesthetically different (medieval, modern military, futuristic, etc) but have crossplay with one another
>>732965643What's inarticulate about that post? If you're familiar with SC2, you're aware of all the tasks that could be automated that make the game APM gookclick.
>>732965486Multiplayer games may be more popular, but single-player is a niche that can be tapped into also, and it was always *the* niche for RTS.Starcraft 1 is an exception for cultural reasons particular to Korea at the time, not because multiplayer RTS is a successful formula. That's why every other multiplayer-focused RTS has failed. Just look at something like Beyond All Reason; that's the multiplayer RTS niche and it's an absolutely tiny one.
>>732965338It could just mean a large amount of players joining and quitting. We're not aware of how much people are actually playing/replaying SP components. Just some insight.
>>732965673>this is basically what petroglyph doesNuh uhTheir campaigns are series of unscripted skirmish maps
>>732965618>I don't enjoy microing units, I just want to make a cool base. Why would I play a game where I have to micro at 200apm instead of playing a game that is just about making a cool base>I don't enjoy making a base, I just want to micro. Why should I play a game where I have to tab back from the fight every 30 seconds to make more units and inject my hatchery instead of just playing a game with no macroetc.RTS does too much and has too many disparate moving parts
>>732965226I obviously believe it because I said it. Huge percentages of gameplay being creep farming makes MOBAs far less interesting than RTS. This matters inherently but doesn't always factor into actual player counts because people don't know what's available and what they want. When people learn objective quality, a good RTS will be more popular if MOBAs don't innovate.
>>732942497it didn't tho, faggot.Just AoE2 alone has tens of thousands playing every day.Just because RTS never made the CoD or FIFA numbers doesn't mean its dead.
>>732965841>it was always *the* niche for RTSPeople get tired of singleplayer because the AI isn't realistic or is repetitive. That may not always show up in practice, but this isn't a tell for how things can be if a studio designs and advertises objective quality. "Look at all the things you can do. Look at how much fun these casts are to listen to." RTS is like the 3rd best genre.
>>732949568only reason AoE2 is alive though is because ladder, you faggot.RTS is an inherently PvP genre.AoE, Starcraft, warcraft and pretty much all other RTS are PvP games, the "PvE" are just a shitty AI posing as a human.
>>732966175>Why would I play a game where I have to micro atBecause you can design around like 60 APM and still have a good game.>I don't enjoy making a base, I just want to micro.Again, you can design around that.
>>732966638>AoE, Starcraft, warcraft and pretty much all other RTS are PvP gamesYou clearly didn't play the first games.
>>732942497i don't think zoomers can handle competition gracefully anymore, losing seems way too serious to themwhy strategize when you can just do your dailies on your cellphone and get anime girls instead
>>732942497Play Starcraft 1 marines, zerglings and zealots ONLY. It's pretty fun actually.
>>732949965he is right, you faggot. There are games like MoW or CoH that require way less micro.Also, if you are actually good you can do pretty well in starcraft even with low APM, this has been proven MULTIPLE times.
>>732965448I feel like something like Warlords Battlecry 3 campaign would be great.
>>732966663>b-but the element you don't like isn't THAT bad, look we minimized itOk, but why would I play that over a game that doesn't have it at all. Cope all you want but the player numbers are there.
>>732966880>What are Apex, Fortnite, PUBG, ARC Raiders, etc.?PvP games are by far the most popular, and they always have the most to lose. People are OK with that because real people are extremely light on reinforced loss aversion. They keep playing because they feel a part of the community.
>>732963220Because they should buff handcannoneers.
>>732966792not only I did play them, but I also played most of them against my dad, cousins and classmates in LAN back in the 90s you massive faggot.the "PvE" in these games are just you against AI, learn what the term actually means...
>>732967119>>What are Apex, Fortnite, PUBG, ARC Raiders, etc.?these are games where you get back in action rather quickly.Losing a 40 minute RTS match that was pretty even is quite something, you need mental fortitude to keep going.
>>732949906also, fighting games are another example of game where there is no "PvE" the opponents you play against are just shitty bots.
>>732967047I'm saying it doesn't have to be low choice at all. If players really only want micro, have a player or themselves make a unit or multiple units that are really powerful that are good micro.I don't actually think this is necessary. RTS are in a good place in some installments with how easy it is to be unique and contribute to a team win every game. Comm users would pubstomp usually.The risk:reward and momentary storyworth in a good RTS is vastly more (enjoyable) than MOBAs, perhaps all other lobby games.
>>732942879Yuri's Revenge OST was fucking baller
>>732967345Right, so you've completely memoryholed the extensive story and scripting in the campaigns.
>>732967470An RTS match doesn't have to be any longer than a game of Fortnite. Just play smaller maps.
>>732967908??What relation maps have to how long the game is? Have you ever played any RTS?>>732967867give ONE example of classic RTS that had any "PvE" element.
>>732967690>The risk:reward and momentary storyworth in a good RTS is vastly more (enjoyable) than MOBAs, perhaps all other lobby games.except the fact 130 million people are playing wow and barely 130 thousand people are playing sc2 shows most people do not agree. Maybe someone could make a truly innovative RTS that breaks the formula enough to bring people back en masse, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.
>>732967793this guy fucks
>>732968120I don't know what the fuck you mean by PvE.
>>732968169LoL*
>>732967345Lol. Ladder was dead compared to custom games
>>732966638Actually delusional. Like insanely so. Nobody would have even remembered WC3 if the game launched with 1v1 only and no UMS
>>732942497Because nobody has figured out a good way of forcing players to have big, varied armies to clash at a neutral piece of land instead of rewarding spaming the same 5 barbarian faggots you can make from the start of the game The real fantasy is wanting to have 2 big armies clash against eachother and be like "oh i will take out his siege engines and then move my archers around here" but no it's all just extrememly blunt and direct "attack faster to win": fucking boring, same shit that ruins all card games. winning is fun but if you make some faggot meta deck where you just try to win in as few turns as possible thats fucking lame and gay
>>732947806Yeah I hate rts that focus only on PvP and also rts like sudden strike or man of war (and few others from Eugene) that removes all buildings and only let you spawn with x units it's ultra lame.
>>732968535Men of war/Gates of Hell is not a RTS it's a RTT, it removes economy buildings in exchange for a far more involved combat system where the terrain actually matters and isn't just a painted mat, you can build field fortifications that affect the gameplay and also it still lhas progression and army building, because different types of units units unlock over time increashing the number of units on the battlefield and their strength.
>>732955843you are a moron then because sc2 had the best single player campaign of all time and casual team matchmaking for people who don't care about e-sport rankingthe only bad part about sc2 was unironically the 1v1 game mode balance being awful for competitive with only hand speed mattering and 0 strategy or skill outside of thatsc1 was/is better in every way for esport fags
>>732968374>using WC3 as examplethanks for proving my point, retard.WC3 is exactly the exception to the rule, and to this day nobody ever tried to copy it for some reason.>>732968208PvE means you play against an opponent that was designed to not be human, you are the one who doesn't know what the term fucking means.They are billions is an example of an actual PvE rts.>>732968397Never played company of heroes 1 and 2 huh?
>>732968926You're the one that mentioned warcraft dumbfuck and WC3 is the one warcraft people actually remember fondly. The same goes for if SC1 was released with 1v1 only with no campaign or UMS. Broodwar wouldn't even exist. Speaking of which SC1 was a terrible fucking PVP game without broodwar and the units that helped balance out the races weaknesses.
>>732968120>What relation maps have to how long the game is? Have you ever played any RTS?Proximity is less travel time is less access to strategies that require safety is a quicker match.
>>732942497It requires a mouseIt's that simple Halo Wars is the closest we ever got to console strategy kino, and there was only one game because Halo fans don't want RTS games.>>732942578I always felt MOBAs were the consolization of this genre.
>>732944157These people are casuals who should be killed, only I have the right way to play video games (with 5 other sweatlords, never touching grass)>>732963398agreed, kill the other half of the playerbase. we don't need them, we have gookclick
>>732968169>SC2.>A good RTS.Do you really think people are going to widely get into artificial APM gookclick?
>>732948202Yeah its hard as fuck to play an rts with a controller. I tried it out on the steam deck using the gamepad controls on age of mythology and couldn't do it. And that was with all the stuff they have built in for auto-macroing your economy.
>>732968397Play SupCom FAF.
>>732950181As neat as this is, we still have no fucking clue how it plays.
>>732968895>sc2 had the best single player campaign of all timeIs anybody supervising this retarded child?
>>732969254>muh high APM!!1!!https://youtu.be/34kFYIL-gS0?si=loTpzcibXhfYX7Xehow about you get good, faggot? You don't need to be fast to be good.There was that guy in CSGO that was nicknamed "the sloth" because he was super slow but he was pretty much the best player around for a long time.
>>732960786>Hes never built a massive base in Tiberian Sun.Legitimately what is the point. All you do is build hundreds of power plants and silos? So what? You can still only produce one vehicle and one infantry at a time. Just play with some blocks irl at that point.
>>732948202>>732969298Again, play Halo Wars, it did it the best. If every RTS game just stole Halo Wars' controls, we would still be in an RTS boom.It's even scalable so if you want a game like Supcom or Beyond all Reason where games routinely have 10,000 units, it can do it.
>>732942497Realistically anon, its cause of greed.
>>732969535>You can still only produce one vehicle and one infantry at a time.Anon once you get about 8+ war factories in C&C these things produce as fast as you can click. It's literally "Buil-Unit Ready". The 'Building' will get cut off by 'Unit ready'.
*saves RTSs in you are path*
>>732969079brood war didn't do anywhere near as much as you think, mostly just added mutalisk countersthe real balancing came from playing on maps being built by people who weren't retarded
>>732969079you know that before WC3 there were 2 games, right?>The same goes for if SC1 was released with 1v1 only with no campaign or UMS. Broodwar wouldn't even exist.you have no idea of what you are talking about.Even then, these campaigns are just you playing against a bot, with the same units that a human could be using, this is not "PvE"
>>732969492best gameplay easily, lots of difficulty options and side objectivessorry you have no taste
>>732969821>mostly just added mutalisk countersYeah no shit. Good luck winning TvZ without medics. Good luck winning vs carriers without Goliath range
>>732969830Do you honestly think that in an age of fucking dial-up people were rushing out to buy an RTS for the fucking ladder? Go ahead and tell us why Blizzard even bothered making a campaign or map editor with options for triggers. You're basically implying SC1 would have been successful without including any singleplayer content at all.
>>732968926Zombie horde? Yes that's obviously PvE.Skirmish against a CPU/AI/bot opponent is different from a scripted opponent that almost *EVERY* RTS has. Scripted, meaning area, resource, and event triggers and responses tailored per map/level often with associated cinematics, voice & text lines.
>>732969507>just 100 apm
>>732942497They asked themselves if it would be a good idea to put 95% of the effort into something 5% of their customers care about and decided that yes, it would be amazing.
>>732970151>Do you honestly think that in an age of fucking dial-up people were rushing out to buy an RTS for the fucking ladder?YES THEY DID, ZOOM ZOOM.HOLY SHIT.Also, I know you are a zoomer faggot, but back in the day we had this thing called LAN, and people even had these big events that they called "lan parties" where dozens would gather up and connect their PCs to each other.And if you look at old PC game boxes you see that almost all of them had in big letters "Support up to X players in multiplayer" It was a big selling point.
>>732942497It didn't, PC just has way more on it now when it used to be an RTS and simulator platform.
>play offline>have a good time at my own pace>play online>misclick a resource node in the first second of the game>guaranteed lossits a genre for the deranged; look what it did to Artosis, man hasn't felt joy in years
>>732970298>Skirmish against a CPU/AI/bot opponent is different from a scripted opponent that almost *EVERY* RTS has. Scripted, meaning area, resource, and event triggers and responses tailored per map/level often with associated cinematics, voice & text lines.this isn't PvE though.
>>732942578Starcraft 2 literally requires room temperature iqs to play.
>>732970390You're a fucking retard and people like you are why we ended up with RTS in the state it is now. Focusing on 1v1 and fucking gay esports led to the place we are now. UMS was more popular than ladder in SC1Fucking DOTA was more popular than the entirety of 1v1 in WC3You're a braindead moron that probably got excited over fucking Stormgate. The vast majority of people that purchased and played RTS games did it for the campaigns and skirmish modes. Fucking COOP is more popular in SC2 than ladder. We're probably around the same age which makes me wonder how the fuck you grew up so fucking dumb and missed out on UMS entirely.
>>732970572I don't know, seems like he's having fun.But yes, single player ftw.
>>732970298I think this guy>>732970642Is either a bot or ESL. I can't tell which
>>732970642Nobody is talking about PvE in an RTS!
>>732969735how do I learn to play this? Also does the Linux client work vs the windows players?
>>732970151I wouldn't expect a zoomer to know this, but back in the day you could connect a cable between 2 pcs (but it had to be the right kind) and play games without internet. warcraft was literally created because the blizzard devs were addicted to dune 2 and wanted to make a multiplayer version.
>>732942497gay nerd shit for chink virgins next question
>>732970652>Focusing on 1v1 and fucking gay esportswhich games do you think actually did this? people in these threads seem to live in some berenstein universe where rts died because of eatsports and not because the main developers got bought out by greedy publishers and shut down after being forced to make console games.
>>732965448So basically RTS failed because the players were too smart to pay for micro transactions unless it was 5 dollars for a MOBA skin, or 15-20 bucks for an expansion campaign/army faction. Microtransactions killed RTS. Piratesoftware says StarCraft 2 got outsold by a single WoW mount.
I have a gaming PC but I only play RTS games on my xbox on the couch. Currently playing AOE4 ans AOM remastered. AMA
>>732973678cuckfaggot software had no idea what he is talking about, and microtransactions didn't really "killed" RTS.Relic tried to make CoH2 into a p2w game and it faced MASSIVE backlash, they rapidly went back in their decision and fix their shit.What we lack is people that aren't retarded playing games and devs that actually put effort into making good games.Look at iron harvest, there was immense hype behind it and the launch was a fucking disaster.
>>732944157>Dawn of War 4 is being released with an almost exclusive focus on a campaign with branching missions, tons of unit options for variety, and multiplayer campaign optionsGod I hope it turns out good. The faction mechanics and flavour they are showing off so far looks great, but their animations with walking are too stiff.
>>732975029>focus on campaign>made by the iron harvest devsthis shit is gonna flop hard.
Somebody argue why SupCom isn't the best franchise / the only RTS worth playing, without using concurrent numbers or just saying "robots". It's extremely more varied:deep than any other RTS I've found.
>>732977795Nukes are stupid. All endgame devolved into sniping anti nuke followed by nukes.
>>732943176i am retarded and so are most other people, which is why rts died as a genre, it's too hard.
>>732963398>>Also, like 50% of AOE II players counts are MP.Yeah because singleplayers already left.
>>732950607>Final Allied mission in RA2>Einstein uses the Chronospehere to send our forces into Moscow to take down Premier Romonov>Manage to fight off the Soviet onslaught, build up my base, and assemble a decent army>Start pushing back against their various bases>It takes a while while to work my way through the Soviet defenses, but I keep pushing south>Eventually all that's left are Romonov's personal security forces around the Kremlin>Send in my Prism Tanks to take them on>Beams flying everywhere>Kremlin gets destroyed, the bastard is dead!>MISSION FAILED>wat.jpg>Turns out I was supposed to take him alive>Have to restart the mission from the very beginning
Need me more games like dungeon siege/dragon age origins and less like any typical rts. I want top down clicky rpgs that isn't diablo clones.
>>732979574Games on Dual Gap are largely determined by the better eco slot.Tons of other strategies are possible in the time it takes to get a nuke.On smaller maps, games end way before nukes.
>>732969735BAR is great but let's be honest it's a niche product.I'd love it if we could have a Total Annihilation-like revival but I don't think that's ever happening. I'm blanking if it even has a single player outside of Skirmish.
>>732977795Only real downside is that it starts to run like shit if you build too many units. Also the sequel killed the series.
>>732971514> Also does the Linux client work I personally do not like the Flatpak but that is the official way to play. It works just fine in Wine through Lutris. (I am a fucking crazy person for doing that, but it gives me more control over it). >how do I learn to play this?Watch videos on build ordershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A-1XMF7s_kThe type of economy all of these Total Annihilation spinoffs have is called a "Streaming Economy". You don't get lump sums of money or lumber, you get a stream of resources and the goal is to allocate the rate they are being spent at. Which means things aren't as cut and dry as a normal game, the only real resource you have to worry about is time. If you want to jump in quick, put some allied BARbarian AI as your allies and a couple enemy BARbarian AI as your opponent on a 1v1 map (don't use the SimpleAI). Then you can experiment all you want and your allies will generally protect you while you build.
>>732977795no infantry equivalent
>>732979659PEWWWWW
>>732980504I mean there is, but they're so tiny as to be irrelevant past the start of the game. The scout T1 bots are only slightly taller than a regular human
>>732950181Reading the developer logs it seems the devs seem to have their heads in the right place. The one about navy gives me hope. If they pull this off correctly we'll be eating pretty damn good.
>>732980628>>732950181This
>>732950258This is some goofy Tiberian Sun shit I love it.
>>732969154Hey I have great news. There's a halo wars 2. And it's even better than the first one. Like way better. And you can play it right now! Even if you pirate it and play the cracked version, multiplayer works somehow. It's a miracle.Also I think Tooth &, Tail is the consolization of the genre, unless you count stuff like sc:64 or the c&c on PlayStation.I would've preferred more games like battlezone '98 / bz2:combat commander
>>732969154>I always felt MOBAs were the consolization of this genre.Yeah, kind of. They came from Warcraft 3 User Map Settings game called Defense of the Ancients. Basically just WC3 but you only controlled a hero unit and pushed a lane.
>>732957812This but it's gates of hell with the zombie mod. Very comfy.
>>732950181I love how it looks like that you need to make an efficient base that resembles an organized factory instead of plopping production buildings down anywhere.
>>732980405I like watching SupCom 2 a lot.
>>732980887Always more of a tides of blood person myself
>>732968895not even better than DoW2
>>732980957This but BAR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJmcUKsy5Vg
>>732980787>Hey I have great news. There's a halo wars 2.I literally forgot, and I don't know why because I own this game.
I really liked the world of conflict multiplayer where you different categories to play. One player is infantry, another is tanks, someone air and so on.
>>732942497My best memory from Warcraft 3 was playing a four way, two team game where I had my footmen holding off against riflemen + bloodmage AoE spam until my orc ally showed up with air units at which point the nigger of a host (fag I was being attacked by) crashed the gameYou won't get that sort of thing today.
>>732942497The abandonment of singleplayer. They tried to go all-competitive but Mobas are already the competitive genre of the normie that doesn't have enough skill for FPS.
>>732980579infantry characteristics are the ability to hunker down in rugged terrain like forests and buildings and hold against units that would normally destroy them in open terrain, they serve an economy of force function much like static defenses, they make terrain and positioning more meaningful.
>>732943991Is this supposed to be a command and conquer unit?>micro endgame is dota>macro engdame is civ>how about games like cnc though?So glad that the cnc modding is relatively alive and well, but it's currently offshored to the mainland. China loves cnc and that's pretty sweet. learning mandarin or flashing a translate app to read menus and unit/structure/power descriptions is a mean hassle lol
>>732942497Too autistic and anti-fun.People don't want to watch build order videos and practice micro against bots for 1k hours just to not get stomped by chink#971860 who has been playing since SC1.Having a high skill floor is extremely detrimental for an online game, and especially for a niche genre such as this one.
>>732942578You also forgot "too big of budget"RTS fans won't admit it, but they want spectacle. They expect the game to be beautiful, perform fantastically, have both SP and MP, and it's just not feasible.They're the Epic Biblical movies of video games.
>>732982485idk if you've noticed but those positions are being made obsolete by robots _today_. In 100 or 1000 years or whenever games like SupCom take place, battlefield emplacements will almost entirely be self-contained turrets manned by robots that don't just collapse when a drone hits them like how Turrets and base defenses in Supcom are right now.
>>732983056>RTS fans won't admit it, but they want spectacle. They expect the game to be beautiful, perform fantastically, have both SP and MP, and it's just not feasible.Of course it isWe have Beyond All Reason made by some autists in their basement on a 20 year old engine and it looks fine.The problem is people's expectations for what spectacle are is what is unreasonable. We don't need AAA graphics on every tiny GI or Conscript. Most RTS games would work fine wiht C&C generals looking graphics and spectacle. Everything after is gravy.
>>732969549Supcom2 was on Xbox btw in case you didn't know. So was universe at war.
This thread is filled with a lot of nitwit takes, obviously posted by fools that haven't thought about the issue much at all.Let me break it down for you. How many fucking games that are multiplayer still have people actively playing online 30 years later? Barely any. But basically every notable RTS from the 90's still has regular players. Hell, people still play Dark Reign: The Future of War online multiplayer every single day and that game is from 1997. I know because I maintain the servers for it.You can make the best game ever but if nobody plays it or talks about it 10 years from now, who cares? It faded into obscurity. RTS is not like that because RTS is essentially timeless, graphics don't matter nearly as much as rulesets. People still playing RA2 every day on C&Cnet. It will never die because it holds up. There is almost no innovation in RTS, it's all derivative and new titles with fancy graphics fade into obscurity in a matter of months while people continue to play the 90's classics.MY POINT Is that RTS that is good will NEVER DIE. All you fags will play the campaign and uninstall, only to revisit it a few years later (maybe). Meanwhile the multifags will keep the torches burning for DECADES. RTS is king like that.
>>732983623Yeah but nothing came close to Halo Wars controls. Supcom 2 may have been on Xbox (and was hamstrung on unit count to fit in the Xbox limitations) but it was not the version anyone wanted to play
>>732983664why are you talking about consoles in an RTS thread you giant homo?>
>>732981085Are the maps smaller in BAR than Supcom? They just don't look as big. I remember needing air transports to get my units around in supcom on the bigger maps.
>>732983636>This thread is filled with a lot of nitwit takes, obviously posted by fools that haven't thought about the issue much at all.Oh boy this always predicates a wall of midwit takes>You can make the best game ever but if nobody plays it or talks about it 10 years from now, who cares? It faded into obscurity. RTS is not like that because RTS is essentially timeless, graphics don't matter nearly as much as rulesets. People still playing RA2 every day on C&Cnet. It will never die because it holds up. Oh okay, that's why FPS games basically stopped innovating: because there are several dozen people still playing UT2K4 and Quake 3 to this day.>Quake 3 still has 400 people onlineMy bad, there are still more people playing Quake than any contemporary gookclick RTS.Thanks for your midwit opinion, brainlet.
>>732983691Sounds like he plays and enjoys games unlike you shitposting faggot
>>732983774It's hard to improve on the basic formula. Chess hasn't changed in a long time for a reason. Trying to change the RTS formula ends in failure, the rulesets have essentially been perfected. All that's left is to explore different settings, sci/fi and fantasy.
>>732983636The campaign players fund the game in the first place. Those 50 guys left playing multiplayer aren't going to be enough to get a new game off the ground. I don't see the point in bashing the casuals that enabled the RTS to exist in the first place.
>>732983742>Are the maps smaller in BAR than Supcom? They just don't look as big.Depends on the map. Seton's Clutch in BAR is maybe half the size of Seton's clutch in Supcom. But I've never compared it side by side. I think Setons in Supcom is an 81x81km map and in BAR it's 24x24 https://www.beyondallreason.info/map/supreme-isthmus
>>732942578MOBAs at a high level are like 5000x harder than RTS campaigns tho
>>732942497Same reason Quake or RuneScape PvP died.Chess is the only difficult competitive game that people will tolerate. Any other game and people just ragequit if the skill ceiling gets too high.
>>732983843This is again like saying nobody bought COD because people can still go play Quake.Or let's go even further, nobody bought Anno because old Anno still has players. Nah man, the problem is nobody can make a game that is targeted toward ~100 hardcore RTS players unless they're effectively working for free like the BAR devs.
>>732983963>high levelMost people that play mobas or RTS never come close to "high level" If they didn't it wouldn't be considered high
>>732983636congrats on missing the whole point. RTS players became MOBA players because MOBA was more accessible and had something resembling low-level play that wasn't getting rushed and killed 2 minutes in.MOBA killed RTS much like how games styled after Call of Duty killed the Doom Clone.
>>732983986Yep.Plus the BAR devs made sure to put in AI opponents,PVE game modes and coop for the people that like fighting vs bots instead of PVP. Hell, their roadmap has a campaign as a must-have requirement before going to steam.
>>732983636>How many fucking games that are multiplayer still have people actively playing online 30 years laterMostIf they have dedicated server hosting, there's at least one community of 50-1000 people out there that play them. Any genre and it doesn't even just count for MP, plenty of people still revisit Arx Fatalis or Morrowind.The only thing I can grant you is that RTSfags WILL as the only sort of gamer obsess over a single game for years if not decades. They're simple like that.
>>732983938Why is it so tiny, biggest BAR map is 30x30km. That's like a medium size supcom map
>>732984203Yep. BAR devs, despite doing it for mostly free, still realize the importance of single player and the casual experience whereas billion dollar companies don't.
>>732963220what >>732967253 said. they need to be buffed.
>>732984239In Supcom, land control matters more than physical space because your metal comes mostly from metal spots. In BAR and TA, you can effectively never touch a metal spot and have a decent metal income with mass converters. I think the mass converters in Supcom give like 1 metal per 1000 energy whereas in BAR it's like 3 to 10. So a map that's 80 kilometers in size would quickly have the resources of an all-metal map.
>>732984239I just looked it up and apparently 34x34 is the cap. Something about units locations getting fucked up if it gets too high. Kinda sad because that makes the scale seem so much smaller. Maybe you can make a narrow but long map? I'll have to look into that next.
>>73298444232x32*
>>732984442I hope they fix it. I want mega-giga maps. I don't know if it's a Recoil problem or what because I think Zero-K has mega-huge maps.
>>732942497Games went one way or the other in SP vs MP, without being particularly good at either.
>>732942497Because many people realized they don't actually enjoy RTS proper, and games sprung up that focused on what aspects they enjoyed. City-builders became their own thing, as did MOBAs, for example.
You want to know a cool fucking RTS game?
>>732984957Niggers tongue my anusMental omega tongues my anus
>>732984957Garbage
Homeworld 3 is why RTS is a fading genre. It epitomizes the issues with modern RTS design.
>>732944234One of the best remasters ever. All the added cut content and outtakes are awesome
RTS Games are easy, just do this
>>732983963It's like 99% timing and positioning, you require zero braincells most of the time just put the fries in the bag.
>>732984957I like this only because I've played over 10000 hours of ra2 and I need some variety, I just do scrims vs ai though, and the foehn or w/e are retarded, and there's just too many abilities.
>>732942578/thread
>>732979659That's ass, as a kid I was too garbage to do that mission properly so I just teleported 4 chrono troopers in and slowly picked him apart. Fucked up and also phased the kremlin for the mission loss.
>>732942951>>Too hard>Wrong.they are too hard for like 90% of gamers. i dont think you understand how stupid and bad most gamers are and even if its some brilliant gamer the amount of effort it takes to learn a new RTS is enough of an obstacle many people either wont bother at all or will stick to one RTS they like. it is a very niche genre, if i was a game dev an RTS is the last type of game i would make for money.
>make one cult classic rts fps game>leave>so ambitious no one tries to copy it
>>732985641I lost interest in BAR once I found out you could control more than 12 units at a time.
>>732942497Because it was a PC-exclusive genre in the golden age of piracy. Eventually devs tried some legendarily awful DRM schemes to protect the games, but they went way too far and the genre died.
>>732986058Holy god damn I think about this game often and can never remember the name, thank you anon.
Does anyone else remember Outpost 2?It wasnt the best rts but man did I play the shit out of that game way back whenI re-read the novella in the manual so many times too. Man I miss manuals ...
>>732983963>MOBAs at a high level are like 5000x harder than RTS campaigns thoCompletive multiplayer at high level is harder than a single player campaign. No fucking shit you donkey
>Focus on singleplayer sandcastle RTS>Sell bazillionsReally makes you think. They are billions popularized the specific survival-rts genre from its success too.
>>732986171There's a small community still making sure the game is playable in the current year: https://metropolisdawn.de/filebase/file/10-openua-standalone-package-full-game/
>>732986334>2019why does it feel like that game came out 10 years ago
I still play Starcraft 2 co-op with friends occasionally
>>732986406Praise be to anon, I'm downloading rn, I was just trying to get the abandonware version working and it was crashing.
>>732985628RTS seems to be the main genre where a "toxic nostalgia" has taken hold. Or RTS seems to be almost wholly reliant on nostalgia.
>>732986058Looks like Uprising, or Battlezone 1 and 2.
>>732986726The thing is you can say that, but then you play a game like red alert 2 or warcraft 3's campaign over again and any notion that you're suffering from "nostalgia" and not just playing the perfect game quickly washes away from you, I'm replaying wc3 now, the story alone blows garbage like clair obscure out of the water.
>>732951206Basically. People don't play RTS to do zerling rush, harass workers, micromanage 10 fucktiny cheapest units in 10 parts of the map, or alt+f4 after a single worker did a single wrong sidestep. That's not how the genre got popular, not why people miss old days when it was popular, not why they want it to become popular again. Korean cyberfaggots are not humans.
>>732943176you're a retard
>>732986058Any kind of action RTS is one of those contradictory that will never work properly, player attention is already the most scarce resource in the genre and now you want him to take the time to fully devote attention to a single unit?
>>732942497Because you keep making the same thread over and over again.
>>732942497I POSTED IT AGAIN!!!
>>732986842But every new game is just StarCraft , or Warcraft, or command and conquer, or home world, or total annihilation. And they all have the same loop. Generate rources, click icon to build unit. Fps, and troop orders seem to be big nuanced variables
Any thoughts on pic related? It's like 6 bucks right now and I like RTS hybrids like carrier command. It does look a bit jank though
>>732987105I'm wondering what YouTube essayist is posting these threads to prepare their thesis on the subject. What do "the experts" say? We need to ask metzen and the old blizzard guys, the old Westwood guys and relic and thq and paradox what they think the state of the genre is and if they agree that it's dead/dying.
>>732987041This particular game is balanced around that. Your units get a defence and a firepower boost if a player takes control of them.
>>732983963Most good RTS campaigns are almost like puzzle games. Same can't be said about the multiplayer though.
>>732986726RTS can only look backwards at itself. If you look too far forward at what RTS turns into, it becomes the MOBA genre that eventually replaced it. Anyone trying to ignore that is blind. What else can RTS do as a genre that isn't just remember the good old days?>Can't monetize it easily >Can't make it that much easier for accessibility (many have tried and failed doing so.)>MP and SP crowds absolutely fucking hate each other, need to make a goldilocks game that satisfies both to succeed.>Live service model doesn't really work for it ether (sorry boomers MP games need this nowadays)All it can do is regurgitate what worked in the 90s and early 2000s because the way to solve all of its problems is just to turn it into a MOBA and be done with it.
>>732987126Yes, new RTS is trash, the problem in my opinion is that they design it primarily for multiplayer, and that is not what made RTS good, the story modes are all boring as fuck, they feel like playing red alert 3, cookie cutter copy pasta mission.
>>732942879GENTLEMEN, THIS IS A NUCLEAR DEVICE.>>732967793yes, yes it does, I still listen to it from time to time
>>732987041Freedom Fighters , band of brothers, battlezone let you give orders to your units like scout area, hunt for enemies, secure position etc.. XCOM declassified I think had unit orders too. This is why I think RTS probably stands the best at incorporating ai. Since typical criticisms of the genre are a lot about unit pathfinding, and complexity both of which AI can help with immensely. They have Claude playing Pokemon. That one ai played StarCraft 2 though. Might be easier to train AI on RTS than something like adventure jrpg
>muh mobaConsider that MOBA is dead too. Dota 2 came out 15 years ago and League is even older
>>732987332You think MOBA replaced it. I think people went on to grand strategy as well. Warcraft and CNC predate paradox sims.
>>732987332I think hybrid RTS could have a cool future if you find the right mix to make it really fun. Natural Selection 2 and savage come to mind. I don't know if PVP would be the way to go for popular appeal though. It feels pretty awful when your commander screws up or one team snowballs hard.
>>732962661StarCraft Brood War in South Korea
RTS never died. It just doesn't need gimmicks, flashy new packaging. It's like chess, doesn't need additional pieces, doesn't need new rules. New game modes are neat, but the base game is so solid it doesn't need much perfecting. Same for most of the old RTS games. AoEII still has regular tournaments sponsored by Redbull. C&C is still actively developed by the OpenRA community, who in turn ended up helping with DORF. Korean Star Craft League still has new players coming in and still regularly has cash-prize tournaments. It's not that RTS is dead, it's just that people's attention spans get shorted with every generation of new tech and social media addicts.
>>732981448grubby's straight face, dry trolling is so funny
You know what you have to do, /v/. But do you have the strength to do it??
>>732982673>So glad that the cnc modding is relatively alive and well, but it's currently offshored to the mainlandThat's RA2 modding, Tiberian Sun modding is alive and well too and it's not Chinese.
>>732987543True, grand strategy scratches the itch RTS is promising playing general moving a ton of dudes around on a map while making resource decisions. Same appeal with table top miniature games. Controlling a big army of dudes is just something people want. MOBA's definitely took a bite out of the playerbase for this genre but I suppose I was being a little reductive by saying that's the whole of where the players went, because you are correct.
>>732986058They also made AllegianceI miss that game so goddamn much
I hope we get RTS development revival finally in upcoming years, so the genre's will start evolving and experimenting again.I think there needs to be like 1-2 more solid, classics games to go big, like AoE4, mb DoW4 next, for RTSs to get the ball rolling and start doing new stuff, instead of trying to recreate SC/WC over and over again.
>>732970390No one gave a single toss about ladders or PVP. All the fun lobbies were huge team games. Just people fucking around.
>>732987945>7v1 comp stomp on fastest>AI dies>game doesn't end>"Yo someone didn't ally up">inevitable betrayal followed by hour long FFAThat was the good shit.
>>732942497>why did rts dieEA did a hostile takeover of Westwood back then. And then proceed to not do shit with RTS for a very very long time.Then they finally made C&C3. Which was ok attempt at C&C universe. Except the didn't care about the story of Tiberium Sun and completely ignored anything about Mutants despite them being a huge part of the story in Tiberium Sun. So no ghoststalker or any other mutants. Then EA fumbled C&C4 so badly that they completely took out base building which is a core component of any RTS game. And thus RTS died.
>>732988067EA took Westwood, bullfrog , and so many others. And turned them all into mobile games. RTS died on the phone. But how many more play clash of clans compared to StarCraft?
>>732986436Because it's been in early access long-ass time
Warcraft Rumble is like a single player card MOBA. Let that sink in. That's the closest we got to Warcraft 4.
>>732944157fpbptons of people enjoy RTS, we just don't give a crap about cuthroat e-sports.
>>732963398This counts compstomps(the majority).
>>732988025I love that shit so muchKilling off the computers was just a formality reallyThe real game was about preparing for the all out nuclear war with the other players right after
Dozens of good points have been made in this thread, but it basically boils to down 1. RTSs are not normie-friendly. That alone comprises a hundred reasons and there are many reasons beyond just it, but that is what killed the genre in a nutshell.
>>732942497They should be RTWPS. I'm not playing against sweaty korean retards with carpal tunnel, I just want a comfy game against the AI, pause to issue commands leisurely, research the entire tech tree, and only then go obliterate the enemy
>>732942497esports brainrot and embracing retarded flaws like bad nonfunctional AI as genre conventions instead of fixing it
>>732942578>Too hard. Skill floor is stupidly high. That's why we have mobas nowNon sequitur, tardlet.
>>732983056>You also forgot "too big of budget"Cute retard
>>732942497I'd say the REAL problem is RTS got was figured out and perfected 20+ years ago. Since then we've been playing sidegrades and rehashes trying to capture that old magic. They're not by default bad, but they'll also never reach those same highs so what's the point? Playing new games because they're new?
>>732987487So you want the game to play itself while you play a subpar FPS on the side? RTS are about strategic and tactical decisions and that requires controlling multiple elements at the same time, any time spent babysitting a single unit is contrary to the genre main appeal.
>>732942578Grubby already debunked this and said dota 2 is the most complex game of all time.
>>732975413>made by the iron harvest devsfuck, say it aint so
>>732987332assfaggots has nothing do with rts besides the interface
>>732963398>There was at least one poll stating that MP is competitive with SP.Never was and never will be.RTS is like RPGs, a single player genre
>>732989098This had one of the shortest campaigns I've ever seen in an RTS combined with being braindead easy on the 'hardest' difficulty. By the time I picked up the game the multiplayer was already dead.
>>732975413ThisRelic might be a walking corpse but Germans are Germans
>>732942497SC2 in 2011, blizzard artificially pumped a lot of money into esports which made other rts devs focus esports and multiplayer instead of good content. When sc2 died a few years later new rts development died along with it. As always fuck blizzard
>>732948441Ppl say this and then don't buy tempest rising or iron harvest or grey goo or tooth and tail or...
>>732989645tempest rising did fairly well, and age of empires II is probably the most active RTS since warcraft 3's heydays
>>732989645Tempest rising is still getting updates so it's not like they closed their doors or anything. Tooth and tail had an update less than a month ago.
>>732981006>DoW2Not an RTS.
>>732989003I kind of think of it like real time with pause RPGs. Like units with abilities, mana? Like dude fuck a defilier, give me ultra lists or guardians. The highest level of ordering is pressing hot key to deploy siege tank. I'm kind of saying the opposite. Use AI to babysit units but you still have to issue orders AI in the first place and maybe it can only do so much typically how commanders have to follow chain of command and leadership becomes more battle tested.
>>732989864If you wiggle a bit it kind of fits though.
Literally the only RTS you need for the next 20 years.
I'm too old and slow to play them.
>>732990042damn, that's kawaii
>>732944157>>732951206Good Singleplayer is also what allows stupid but fun gimmick missions like "you only have a certain type of unit, but the entire mission is designed for that one unit to punch seriously above their weight class" or "this is basically a stealth mission" etc. There can be a stupid huge amount of variety there.
What RTS has the best planes/aircraft mechanics?
>>732983505Not anon but I like infantry because it's human.I can't enjoy a faction if there isn't any blood involved. Maybe on both sides.
>>732942497Focusing on esports to try and become the next broodwar.
>>732942497tried to e-sports to much cause of starcraftmoba took over since it was easier and for retarded cazzie cunts who didn't have the skill and dedication to gitgud
>>732942951>Wrong.The only other people I personally know who liked them were my brothers. They are also autistic. Autists don't have problems with this genre. A majority of people who don't have autism cannot comprehend this genre at all.
>>732949365That's AAI programmable vehicles. But there's also ERM with both factorio themed units or terrain, there's also another mod using the unit-control mod that gives you robots. There's also the 40k titan mod.
how is it that when I play a game "designed for multiplayer" it feels good to play even against the computer, but when I play games "designed for single player" I feel like I am having to struggle against the game just to make my guys do what I want? in sc2 my units are responsive, hotkeys make sense and are easy to remap if I decide I don't like them, and it's easy to move the screen around. in these single player focused games that you fags love the hotkeys are shit, the camera controls are shit, there's no attack move, and units constantly bug out and ignore my commands.
>>732942497because controlling 1 hero unit was more fun then managing an economy.sc2 co-op was the closest we got to that where you had a bunch of hero units you could choose from that played the game differently for you with some having semi-automatic economy managements even on the same race. sadly the game was dead already by then.
>>732990307> A majority of people who don't have autism cannot comprehend this genreI think that's wrong and I'll try to explain why. I burned SC1 on discs and gave them out to five different friends at school so we could play when we got home. They didn't put hundreds of hours in the game but we were all around 12 years old and had fun screwing around. Most of them ended up getting hooked on UMS maps. One guy did end up having fun on the ladder and one guy didn't play much outside of our friend group. The barrier of entry for RTS is practically zero. You box your units and mine minerals and eventually learn to click a bit faster. Some of them didn't even use the fucking hotkeys (this isn't uncommon) When I got older I ended up showing starcraft to my nephew when he was around 8 and he really enjoyed the Campaign. It was too hard for him to beat the whole thing but he still speaks fondly of it today in his twenties. I recently got him to play BAR with me and we had fun. What RTS needs to succeed is people convincing their friends to play with them and a casual friendly environment that teaches them how to play the game.
>>732990640I hate to break this to you but everyone in your anecdote is also autistic.
Grindans weren't as fun as adventure games.
>>732986217>manualsUnrelated to RTSs, but when I bought MENACE last week I was shocked to see the game came with a manual.Haven't seen an out of game manual in years.
>>732986334The campaign was... OK I guess.Not worth more than one playthrough though.Sadly the company quit before they released the promised map editor upgrade that would have allowed for proper user-made campaigns.These days when I feel like playing TAB I remember that From Glory to Goo exists and play that instead.
>>732981448is there a grubby but for brood war?
>>732942578RTS doesn't make money
>>732991343Whoppsie meant to reply to OP>>732942497
>>732990042 Bro just switch to turn-based, that's what I did. Now I can sit there for 15 minutes planning how to move one unit. Zero APM, 100% vibes.
>>732991228>From Glory to GooYou recommend it? I kinda glazed over it when I saw it was in early access. The overwhelmingly positive looks promising though.
>>732991291no we only have artosis
I don't really care about RTS campaigns, they are just to teach you how the basics of the game work, or in better cases also give you nice a story. Otherwise they are mostly shitty, I don't care about some puzzle(a map) the devs made me to solve. Give me something sanboxy where my decisions matter. Recently I've been playing Battle Engine Aquila and I liked how I have to make decisions about what enemies to engage at what point and I can't be everywhere on the battlefield at once to defend all my sides units etc.Also I don't like e-sport sweaty metafaggotry, but I much prefer to play RTS games against a mostly unpredictable human opponent. That's why I dislike Starcraft, AoE and similar games with their rigid build order cancer, where people optimized their shit like>uhh I'm playing the square faction so I have to get 5 workers in the cum mines and 3 on the piss geyser while already building a shit factory by the 5th min because my enemy is playing the circle faction and I need to get to spam cyst soldiers
>>732990007dogshit maps, terrible pathfinding, terrain interaction and """basebuilding"""
>>732942497they chased the casual party game side mode "multiplayer" instead of focusing on the genre's singleplayer roots
>>732987560Highguard should've been this, like Savage or Nuclear Dawn or Empires, instead of a 3v3 joke with mounts
>>732991892>Battle Engine AquilaGood taste. We'll probably never see another game like it.
>>732990173I remember being so intimidated but fascinated with the commando and spy missions in C&C and Red Alert, because they just gave you a single elite trooper (or a handful, like 5) and gave you a puzzle to solve to get through the mapIt was a really interesting way to switch up the RTS gameplay
>>732991892you don't "have to" follow build orders, they are just the best path to reach some game state that's advantageous. what even is the alternative? either you have no plan and are just making shit at random, or you have a plan but you aren't really putting any thought into the steps to get there. as soon as you think "the enemy is going to attack me with flying units so maybe I should build enough ranged units with the range upgrade to be able to deal with them" you're working on a build order.
>>732942951>Every rts dev pivoted to competitive instead of soulful campaigns.A bit of this,It's also why we get shitty mirror map, and mirrored side.But IMO the main problem is also making no-effort AI that cannot use anything but the most basic gameplay.Result?No "tactic" whatsoever, it's only about "solving" the production minigame, find the right units to send against the AI (if you aren't just using units you like).All current game design are "PvP rated" trying to gain the "eSpurt" free-advertising, but since no player can micromanage 200 troops, the gameplay is basic as fuck and either few squads/hero MOBA-style or plain winning with production.
>>732992290I pretty much gave you an example what a build order is and why someone with no interest in being very competitive would not care about games that heavily rely on that kind of play. It's specific steps for achieving a specific goal/strategy that that is usually most optimal in a match up.Look at pic rel as another example. This is not a>I scouted flying units barracks>I'll switch to a counteron the spot decision situation.
>>732991721Yes. Very much so.Its in EA but I would say its got enough content that even if the dev quit tomorrow that I easily got my moneys worth out of it.
>>732942497RTS didn't die thoughbeit. How'd you define "die?">Not being present in marketing media and social media lately?>No more new RTS games lately?>No more new RTS mods lately?also... aw heck lol...>No more new RTS fanart lately?>>732987792>RA2 modding is Chinese>Tibsun modding is variedvery nice. I'm currently wondering about the naval mod expansion, and been watching videos explaining and describing each and every naval unit that Nod and GDI are able to field. Also, in pic related, mighty surprised with how strong the GDI-Nod-Scrin navies, those are hella strong, especially the Scrin. Sheesh.>>732990186Having them as units that land and launch from airstrips are pretty cool. There's also the one with having "off map" planes being used as the sort of strike powers that would hit a cluster of units like helis and land units.
>Maps given by devs to playersYou spawn with a town hall and five workers, on the opposite side of the map your enemy does the same, the map is also mirrored so both sides have identical terrain to use>Maps made by playersTeam game where one side has a well developed defensive base but can't train units with a goal of surviving for XX minutes while the other side gets to summon units for free and charge at the defended base
>>732994382let me b legolas or ban
>>732988927I agree with this so much. Tactical pause like in Dragon Age Origins or They are billions.
>>732942578>Too hard. Skill floor is stupidly highAs a long time rts boomer, I wouldn't really say they're too hard (can take some mastering though). The main thing is that they require a high degree of pro-activeness to play well (you can't get lazy), which isn't very casual friendly for non-competitive play. Not saying that as a criticism of course, just why it's probably harder to get newer and younger audiences into it.
>>732994021>How'd you define "die?Not OP but RTS are no longer producing :- good enough to stop those threads from having honest answers,- anything that isn't cheap phone games that skim the definition,- anything that isn't copy of SC, C&C, AoE and maybe DoW (and they were essentially just model swap),- more than 10 year old or a sequel of such,- something not creatively bankrupt in terms of mechanic.And even if you include mixed-RTS/TBS like Total War, it remains a niche where you are often better playing the automated battle against AI since the AI is boring as fuck (see >>732992363).I have minimal hope this "AI era" will somehow lead to game AI that are creativeAnd I follow this channelhttps://www.youtube.com/@AIandGames/videos
>>732995941The issue with AI enemies is making them hold back
>>732984957pure kino
>>732942497RTS Venn diagram >casuals who make up 3/4 of the playerbase >gigachad base builders and turtles, they don't want to play city sims because they still want to build an army>competitive tryhard gookclick faggotsAll of the beloved RTS franchises were built for casuals with extensive singleplayer campaigns and skirmish maps while RTS franchises who heavily focus on MPfaggotry die out just as quickly and these tryhard players revert back to playing the old classics.Also zoomers and anals don't care about RTS, the genre is literally GenX/millennial coded.
Devs focused on "muh Starcraft esport" while people just enjoyed playing stupid things on W3 custom map.
>>732979659micro chrono legionnaires, retard
>>732996328Took 400 posts for someone to summarize it this well.
>>732944157>Because people want campaigns but devs want to make an e-sport cashcowthis unironicallyI never play pvp unless it was with friends, asisde from a campaign, a skirmish mode against bots is essential and fun, bonus points if there's a survival mode
I wish Gookclick APMfests were a different genre altogether
You now remember Homeworld 3
Play Tempest Rising
>>732942497>the only RTS game I ever liked was Red Alert 2>was excited by the RA1 remaster 5 years back, because that meant RA2 is probably coming soon>found out recently that RA2's source code was lost, and the game will never, ever be remastered>low FPS because it's linked to game speed, no widescreen, foreverManI don't care if it makes me a shitter, I enjoyed building up massive armies and then sweeping the map with them. I tried AoE, and it's just unfun APM "perform the optimum setup as fast possible" bullshit.
>>732999526Buy an adAlso, no Veti campaign means very :(
>>732996041Not sure what you are referring to.Especially since the problem don't come from AI being too good, but from the fundamental mechanics of most RTS allowing a simple algorithm to outproduce you.AI should be rated on them acting like an in-setting commander (under the assumption that player are also kept from exploiting mechanic with dumb math)
>>732999526
Are command and conquer and act of war the only RTS franchises that did FMV cutscenes? I legitimately can't recall any other strategy games that did that
Besides all the old DOS games like W3D, DOOM, Commander Keen, etc., Company of Heroes was one of the first games I played on PC after growing up a console babby. My buddy let me borrow that shit and install it on the family pc alongside CrysisThen played picrel on xbox 360 but other than that not a ton of rts action.I prefer the ability to think and plan and counter so turn based or pause is more my speed
>>733000203https://store.steampowered.com/app/2088550/Dying_Breed/ignore that it's just C&C
>>732968397BAR solves thisEven if one player specializes, because you have 8 players on a team you till end up with massive varied armies on the open field.
>>732990479Because all the people who say “only campaign!!!” Or “only casual singleplayer only!!” Have zero clue about game design and never play these single-player first RTS games anyway.They enjoyed WC3 or something as a kid and now are blinded by nostalgia, forgetting that in fact most people who played these games long term did so for the multiplayer, for custom games, casual skirmishes, and for competitive ladder play.Maybe some people played the campaigns again every year or so, but the people who kept the game alive were those on MP, and the games that thrived had great unit control and a well developed MP scene which has space for casuals and pros.Crying about “gookclick” shows these people haven’t touched an RTS in decades, as if you NEED to play high level comp only
>>732942497>starcraft becomes popular>"DUDE RTS GAMES ARE ONLY ABOUT REALLY AUTISTIC MICRO NOT MACRO!">unit caps!>no powers systems!>every map must be a really autism 1v1 or 2v2 final destination NO FUN ONLY AUTISMthat's it the most successful RTS right now is BAR and its insane on macro, no level caps, and its maps are designed for fun autism 8v8 or 25v25v25v25 stuff
How is picrel is this shit any fun?
>>732969549>It's even scalable so if you want a game like Supcom or Beyond all Reason where games routinely have 10,000 units, it can do it.The problem is that requires good programming and most devs just want to be faggots and throw shit into Unity/Unreal Engine instead of learning to actual program
>>733003090Yea BAR is so good, always has people online, wide range or skill levels, runs amazingly well for me, and it’s free
>>732942497DETRUIRE TOUTC'EST UNE OBLIGATION
Because one Sony walking simulator brought in more money than all RTS games combined.
>>733003250It's fucking insane how well it's designed. Some games genres like RTS or Simulation games like Simcity 4000 or Factorio need a focus on programming above all else. And I feel like that just does not exist anymore in modern gaming.
>>733003342The market is bigger and every game in the 90’s sold less than even mid tier games do today.
>>732963398you realize the people who play MP play nothing else while the average SP fag maybe puts 50-100 hour in the game and moves on.In terms of sales its the same thing
>>733003342You fucking new fag shut the fuck up retard. Starcraft as a franchise made over a fucking billion and Command and Conquer sold 50% more as a franchise than StarcraftThe genre died because its two incredible flagship genre defining games were bought by two faggot publishes EA and Activision who fucking killed it
>>732952275best thing they can do is tactical turn based
>>733003846>Command and Conquer sold 50% more as a franchise than Starcrafti had to google that to checkthat's absolutely wild
>>733002917nta, but I call bullshit.Majority of ancient RTS were made for singleplayer because you couldn't count on finding another player in a worldwide lobby (nowaday the game betting everything on MP tend to die as soon as there's not enough player online).>WC3Please, I'm from the generation that played the first Sudden Strike, Kingdom(the original), C&C or Homeworld.Warcraft 2 is among the games that gradually corrupted the genre, switching exclusively to a multiplayer public with a singleplayer that only acted as a tutorial.>Crying about “gookclick” shows these people haven’t touched an RTS in decades, as if you NEED to play high level comp onlyMy turn to say you probably haven't touched a RTS that was not CREATED FOR "gookclicker".Do you even understand why the developers now aim specifically for the "high level comp" crowd? Because it's free advertising. You get autism playing non-stop, constantly talking about it, posting pic, and so on... Guaranteed revenue even decades later.That's what they dream of at least. The business model of SP game are less rewardingPut a lot of money and effort into a GOOD game => still know you'll only reach a small niche => even if it world well, it get less advertising than eSport bullshit.I would never say "only campaign" but usually the balance needed for PvP multiplayer tend to restrain severly what you can do.
>>732990007hell yeah, this and total war warhammer are the best warhammer games for me
>>733004046Name 1 recent RTS game that tried to cater to the “high level comp” crowd.
>>732964754>failedthey made UaW und Empire at Wars, but somehow they fell off afterwards.9bit armies looks interesting, but its the kind of game you play for 10-20 hours. They want to play it safe by keeping it simple, but this makes it pretty dull.
>>732942497>why did rts dieDoTA
>>732942497competitive gamers switched to more popular gamescasuals still enjoy the story modes of these games
>>732988991RTS has been dead as shit since RTT took over. No base management just action.It's gotten so bad that people will do mental gymnastics to bend RTT back into RTS
>>732988451>mobilerts adjacent game are super popular on mobile but its pretty much all dumped down rts mechanics.It's weird that few rts games tried to explore some lighter RTS mechanics or weave RTS into other genres>Mount and Blade >Kunitsu Gami>Minion Masters>Mechabellum>They are billions
>>733004046>HomeworldI AM STILL SO MAD THAT THE SEQUEL WAS RUINED BY SOME STUPID FUCKING HOLE>waited 20 years for this>starts off really promising>they get the fans involved early>company is thrilled to be able to use modern tools to make the Homeworld game of their dreams for the fans>at a certain point in development the publisher Gearbox got involved >they decide to force in a DEI>pink haired super cunt gets control of the story>everyone has to do what she says>cancels tons of features>forces cgi>decides to pull a Kathleen Kennedy and make it HER story>introduces a new character who is the typical Hollywood super genius girl boss self insert>literally looks exactly like her>"She graduated from college at age 12 and became teacher in Physics, Hyperspace Dynamics and Computational Abstracts as well as Advisor status in Chemistry, Biology and Theoretical Mathematics at age 16!">adds a black love interest>love interest at all in my home world game should get you lined up against the fucking wall but of course he's blackBut what about the actual girl Karen S'jet who is the face of the franchise and actually earned all that respect? >she decides to take on the white guilt sins of her ancestors and give her life up for the magical YAAAS QUEEN so she doesn't need to be alone anymore They literally made this stupid fucking random MAGICAL bullshit SHEBOON villain in my SPACE OPERA GAME whose ENTIRE MOTIVATION is that she's having a chimp out FOR NO GOD DAMN REASON LITERALLY NO REASON and killing BILLIONS of people again for NO REASON LITERALLY NO REASON and then the has fucking ICON OF THE SERIES KAREN S'JET get convinced that she needs to embrace her fucking white guilt AND I'M SERIOUS IT'S SO FUCKING HEAVY HANDED ITS WHITE GUILT and enter the null void from Dragonball SO THE SHEBOON DOENS'T HAVE TO BE TRAPPED THERE ALONEBECAUSE THIS DEI WET HOLE NEEDED TO HIJACK THIS GAME TO BE HER PERSONAL FANFICTIONAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHKILL MEPAINFULLY
>>733005660AYOOOOSO YOU BE SAYINGWE MAGICAL NIGGERS IN SPACESHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
>>733005660While I think you've just been infected by culture war bullshit (because original Homeworld would also be called woke today and the 2nd failed worse), I agree that HW3 underdelivered so badly it could rip a hole in spacetime.
>>733006141>wokeI never said woke you fucking retard. I said some unqualified DEI hire ruined the game because she was given too much power and ham fisted away features and story to force it to be her self insert fanficiton shitkill yourself you fucking tourist
>>733005660Thanks for reminding me this exists you cunt, I had already purged homeworld 3 from my memory
>>733006141>>733006285Like fuck let me expand on this. If someone jumped into Homeworld and decided to make it some weird Startreck shit focused on one ship and there was no ship building or anything I'd also be fucking pissed as shitBut the only happens because of DEI shit and I'm calling it what it is. This only happens whenever this diversity or female bullshit happens. Or nepotism. If it was nepotism and it was the CEO's kid just put in charge I'd call that out>you've been infected in culture war bullshitdid you see the literal magical giant nigger in my space game? Holy shit get fucked
>>732942497Entirely due to shitters and retarded devs>muh campaignEvert RTS comes with a campaign. Just proves people who complain don't actually play the games they complain about. No one here ever talks about Spellforce despite it being 3 games and a dozen expansions of RPG RTS kino.>muh esportsVery few RTS come out aiming for eslop and they always die immediately because they're usually shit games.>muh comfy buildingPlay vs bots. Don't you have any friends? I play AoM entirely vs bots and with friends. They do their stupid city building trash and I bend over backwards defending them (fun!).
>>732965016Just garrison your tc and enemy loses all his units
>>733003708It doesn't have to be -- see skins or a premium subscription or whatever. Bonus points if they can be attained through play, like getting top X or something.
>>732989151I mean, there was.
>>732960730AoE2 DE is hardly a 20 year old game.It's the propped up corpse painted to appeal to zoomers and stuffed with live service shit of a 20 year old game.
>>732980504You just mean humans? Isn't that "just saying 'robots'"?
as others have said, RTS is nowhere near dead.It's just that the industry now doesn't focus on them as the shining exemplar of PC gaming as it once did. maybe that's why the industry is failing these days IDK
>>732977795
>>732942497>>732942578Lack of adaptation in market demand. RTS stuck with its core identity gameplay model much harder than other genres. This lack of vision ended up splintering the types of players interested into a billion different niche markets. It's no accident WC3 was so popular given all the different elements it introduced. And that legacy continues in the SC2 custom games community,Shooters/Fps/ThirdPersonShooter games mutated thousands of times while RTS just spammed a few of the same core legacy formulas. Shooters pushed the boundaries of their genre continually and experimentally. They tried storyline based, scarcity based, regen and twitch, ESPAWTS, multiplayer focused, basebuilding, big team battle, persistent XP, rpg elements and skill trees, open world, battle royale, and so much more. Then add in dozens of possible game modes. AND each and every game happily built on each other and the trends that ensued. What in the fuck have RTS games tried in the past 2 decades? Especially in response to Mobas and Factorio style basebuilders and Autochess? A few tried to be ESPAWTS. And sure there were a few memorable ones who tried create a niche, like CoH (destruction, tanks), DoW2 (campaign focus, small scale tactics), Supreme Commander, They are billions, and these are just the mainstream ones, but no one ever built on them. Occasionally there's a nice gem like Last Train Home too. But the SC2 custom games lobby probably has more gameplay variety than anywhere else in the genre. That's a huge problem.
>>733006141>(because original Homeworld would also be called woke today and the 2nd failed worse)falsefuckingpremise
RTS are hard to make, hard to balance and hard to play neither the modern developer or the modern gamer have the skills for any of the aforementioned
>>733008096PCs can do way more these days, and more people play games.RTS much like point and click adventure games have a niche, but you will never see Starcraft as the #1 PC game period anymore than you will see MYST return to being the top PC game.
>>732979659Uhm, why didn't you save?
>>733008335I think this is the #1 thingRTS games had big budgets and top tier talent in the past, that’s hard to get today.
>>733008336>but you will never see Starcraft as the #1 PC game period anymoreI dispute this i think an evolution of the genre with the right mix of custom creation support and multiplayer PVE could become very bigMultiplayer Cooperation is an underdeveloped aspect RTS should explore more
>>733008221>"dude bro like red alert 2 would be called woke because tanya girl boss you chud"I hate faggots so much
>>733008552BAR needs do work in being easier to mod. Imagine a medieval BAR
Every time I am honest and explain why RTS is dead people just get mad. They don't want to hear the truth. That it's a super low skill ceiling genre with little competition and long grindy matches. People who posture RTS as being hard do NOT play any competitive games outside of RTS and mobas. Any real time multiplayer game with rounds that go over 20 minutes is just garbage and will be doomed to die eventually. Being in real time doesn't even add any practical benefit to the gameplay of "strategy", it just obfuscates the possibility of any real strategy taking place.Most people do not even like RTS and it's just dumb normalfags that want narrative heavy single player campaigns because they want to see toy soldiers bash into each other digitally. This is an absolutely scuffed and poisonous genre.
I'm going to be called a casual but I wish RTS games would have additional tutorials or something to better teach you the ins and outs of actually controlling and playing the game
>>733008641Everyone loves a good campaign and RTS games can combine the storytelling of a CRPG with high action, or really a variety of play styles depending on the scenario.People mentioned it earlier, but I enjoyed Tempest Rising quite a bit, though Dynasty totally moggs GDF both story and gameplay wise.
>>733008865AoE2DE has nice tutorials for basic skills like fast feudal and fast castle
>>733008796>muh shooting games are the only high skill genreGo back to your aimtrainer, or call me when you want to play a game of War in the East 2
>>733009080War In the East 2 is not an RTS, why would you just out yourself as a retarded poseur like this? Take a break from posting today, let's have some better threads.
>>733008865Wanting to learn the game is the opposite of being a casual. Casuals want the game to be changed for them because they don't want to learn it.
>>733006285>>733006509Don't play coy, both term come from the same culture war lexicon. You are the poltard tourist here.Even if HW3 did lazily copypaste the superficial aspect of Homeworld, did a minimalist attempt to redo HW2 original plotline, but had no grand direction beside that.You can find the original plot planned for HW2 somewhere on the internet.HW2 also had 2 third of its content cut, we've seen the same level of laziness with male directors alike.>did you see the literal magical giant nigger in my space game?Did you even play HW1 and HW2? I can already imagine the incel raging about Fleet command being a woman, poltard hallucinating the Kiith being propaganda, random calling the Bentusi Jews, and contrarian siding with the bad guy over nuking Kharak.Main difference is that Karan S'jet is sexier so your dick would probably override your brain.HW:Cataclysm only read like a cheesy underdog fanfiction, so it would have less problem.
>>733008904I feel like a CoH type game could get away with spamming different Campaign dlcs all across WW2 with absolutely fantastic reuse of assets. There's "infinite" material there, probably in the 100s of interesting events.
>>732942497People don't like to micro
>>732942497God, RA2's art-style is perfect >DORF is still not out yet
>>733009481People don't like to micro their macro, they love to uselessly micro their blob of units around and watch it fight.
>RTS, but the campaign meaningfully diverges depending on your choices during each mission. It just needs a veritable sackload of money to make it happen, but it would be ludo
>>733008641>it doesn't have to be what?One sum obtained no matter how much people play: People who really get into a game don't mind some microtransactions and will pay for various fun tweaks (like different laser colors), sounds, etc.
>>733009553Blob fights would be fun and all, but with how many RTS games are set up? You get 1 good one per match, might as well GG right after. It's so much work for what's sometimes a quick or bitter payoff.
>>733009723I don't think it would be that expensive to make
>>733004413the Supreme Commander franchiseStormgateCompanies of heroes 3ignoring how they are making remaster of the usual guard (Warcraft, Age of Empire...)ready to move the goalpost?
>>733009781>aom>ao4There are two RTS I regularly play vs AI with my casul friends and watch blobs fight blobs. You want to do casul babby shit in real games naturally you get 1 of those MAYBE because a human (ideally) shouldn't let you recover from throwing your entire army away. Or you just grow your eco and build your production and instantly make another army idk, you're game.
>>733009781I recently watched an OpenRA match that was basically blobbing back and forth for some time.
>>733009723There's a bunch that do this though, the only hard part is having the writing keep up
>>733009820by "meaningfully diverge" I mean fully branching campaign, not recolors of "you sided with A so you fight this exact same mission, but against B"
RTS didn't fail It just doesn't pay out to make a bajillion dollars. Compared to shit like Minecraft, roblox fortnite call of duty or world of Warcraft. Perhaps RTS is being suppressed by military leadership. They don't want every man woman and child to have a gun AND be capable enough to run an opp and/or campaign effectively and to the degree all the RTS fans would like their games to play out.
>>732986436Feels like it's been 7 years since somebody was not-retarded enough to focus their RTS game on single player. Which allowed a no-name studio to be successful, even though they aren't all that great. Except that Against the Storm was smart enough too.
>>733010186I think RTS players would be pretty miserable real life commanders, every victory would be pyrrhic
>>733009723>>733009820If you used persistent zones on some missions you could save quite a bit on content design while showcasing decisions. When you come back to the area the zone has changed based on how you did your objectives. If you disable the ancient alien artifact, next mission in the area is about hostile plant and animal life is attacking the base now. If you choose to overload and power your base with the artifact, it starts creating rift anomalies and creatures you have to stabilize. Did you do the side objective where you killed the tribe chief and stop the base raids? Well now he can't ally with you next mission. Etc. If you have the map expand some rounds it would feel fresh, especially upon returning from missions on another zone.
>>733008796>That it's a super low skill ceilingPlay SupCom.>long grindy matchesIt depends on the map size, but SupCom matches range from 5 minutes to 1 hour, similar to MOBAs.>Any real time multiplayer game with rounds that go over 20 minutes is just garbage and will be doomed to die eventually.But MOBAs and CS do that.>Being in real time doesn't even add any practical benefit to the gameplay of "strategy", it just obfuscates the possibility of any real strategy taking place.Again, play SupCom. There are dozens of different strategies you can do in lower techs (1 and 2) in the first 5-20 minutes; plus, T3 and T4 exist for longer (20 minute and up) matches.I dare anyone to say MOBAs or CS have more risk:reward.
>>732983505funnily enough it's the opposite in fact, dug in infantry is the single most resilient unit on the battlefield today, everything else dies to infantry portable weapon systems like drones, ATGMs and manpads, the ultra modern latest tactical approach is literally a reiteration of the WW1 infiltration tactics by very small infantry teams, not giant robots.
>>733010253That's basically just a puzzle game tho.
>>733010337>But MOBAs and CS do thatThe maximum round time in CS is just under 2 minutes. It's similiar to a fighting game. MOBAs are in the same vein as rts, because they are born from it, and they are absolutely stagnating. There will never be a new popular moba and obviously no one is gunna play league 2000 years from now like chess.
>>733010582deadlock has already proved you wrong just stop posting
>>732942497Just like Point & Click Adventures, this genre didn't really transfer that well to 3D.Why didn't it have a comeback, like 2.5D shooters or racers? Because classic RTS games are far more difficult to make; 2-3 devs can't really pull it off.
>>733010643Deadlocke is a bad game and valve won't open it to the public because they know its bad.
>>733009949>the Supreme Commander franchise>Recent.Also, I would challenge anybody to say that SupCom FAF isn't varied:deep. Why does it matter if it was developed with PvP in mind?
>>733010317This is by design.
>>732942497Tryhards killed it. When we had cool single-player campaigns with unique challenges, everyone could play it and have fun. But then the online scene made shit like wasted clicks cost you entire games. I'm not a bugman. I refuse to spend my days optimizing my build order so Koreans don't make my life miserable.
>>733010582>The maximum round time in CS is just under 2 minutes.That's a round, not a match. If you're losing a match, you still have to sit there for sometimes a very long time.
>>733010959>RTS player is too retarded to readWoah shocking!
>>733011061>MOBAs will die because they go over 20 minutes.You're splitting hairs. Round length doesn't matter if the match lasts a long time.
>>732949853based. most zoomers don't seem to understand that it's possible to play old games and there's like a bajillion good rts games out there that they've never touched. they still need new ones though for some reason
Somebody make a new thread.
>>733010830It's crazy how gooks mindbroke casuals so badly despite gooks only playing brood war they are feared in all rts games.
>>733010186>compared tothose aren't successful genres Most minecraft clones failedMost modern MMO failThe battle royale hype ebbed downCoD clones are more miss than hitcan't even name a single Roblox clone>>733010317how is that different o any other games?Compared to someone who never held a gun or drive a car you will have a small edge over
>>733010830I got chills seeing this again. God I miss Blizzard.
>>733011162If you're not going to read then what's the point of explaining it to you? RTS has longer rounds than a full inning or quarter in actual real sports. It's bad design. It's obnoxious and boring to play, there's very little to lab, practice, and study, and it's a gratingly long and inhumane carpal tunnel simulator with a ton of padding in each round which is completely unneeded.
>>733011216the mere thought of the gook with 50apm per finger in starcraft has driven away millions of casuals from even touching multiplayer. the ultimate mind slam
>>733011216Nobody wants to play against a guy who spends his whole life living 1 game. Sorry. Warcraft 3 got around that with entire sub-ecosystems of custom games. And that was probably the best answer to a genre known for its sweatlords. But then of course you got shit like DOTA sweatlords, I remember not even being able to download the map, because people would kick if they saw you didn't already have it downloaded. I'm surprised that game took off being even more beginner unfriendly.
Microsoft (unintentionally) killed PC gaming with Vista.
>>733011540Remember when they tried to require Vista or you can't play Halo 2? Microsoft have always been such bitches.
>>733011485>no one wants to play vs people devoted to the gameYeah I know, "nolifer", "tryhard" casuals have a lot of words for people better than them at video games.
honestly, we should merge /vst/ back into /v/board is dead and we're here talking anyway
>>733011706Salty that no one values your hyperfixation? Guess all those hours you wasted aren't as impressive as you hoped.
what are some must play rts games (singleplayer)? i've pretty much only played warcraft 1+2+3 and red alert 2. i don't care if they're old or even if i have to use VMs to play them
>>733011825>must play rts games (singleplayer)None
>>732989151i hate this chart because it was created by a casual campaign rts channel. of course that's going to be reflected in the results
>>733011540Microsoft focusing on Xbox when they had a defacto monopoly on PC gaming saved PC gaming
>>733011825Campaigns are the best part of an RTS. Because you can do cool asymmetric things and the enemy teams don't just have to be a normal base operating by the same rules.
>>733011825age of mythology and homeworld come to mind.
>>733011963Single player rts is some of the dumbest most casual slop you can EVER play. Just hire some prostitute to jingle keys in front of your face for awhile, it'll be leagues more engaging.
>>733011395>RTS has longer rounds than a full inning or quarter in actual real sports.Play smaller maps.>It's obnoxious and boring to play, there's very little to lab, practice, and study, and it's a gratingly long and inhumane carpal tunnel simulator with a ton of padding in each round which is completely unneeded.Have you even played SupCom?
>>733012075You say that, but that's literally why people fondly remember things like C&C and Starcraft (if you aren't Southeast Asian). Yes, singleplayer campaigns were fun. Deal with it.
>>733012075
>>732942497can't make them playable on consoles
>>733011819You shit and piss yourself because I exist thoughbiet you declare a genre dead because you personally fear meeting me in pvp
>>733012185It's literally peak casual dad gamer normalfaggot slop. The same people "playing" rpgs, they just want dumb shut your brain off toys. If you were honest in the first place, then the answer to the thread is that this niche has been filled by gacha now, and no longer has any reason to exist. So learn some real video games or go install idolmaster i guess
>>733011825>must playDon't exist. Check out Warlords Battlecry 2 then the Spellforce series. 1 > 3 > 2.
>>733012075Play a good RTS.
>>733012394you really hate games i guess. why are you on /v/ again?
>>733012491>he can only imagine casual gamesMakes sense why you're on /v/.
>>733012365>O-one vee one me!!! I wiw beat you up in minecwaft!Typical.
>>733012484There isn't any, you don't know what good is because you've only played 0.00001% of the games I have. I am telling you this so you can stop wasting your time. Stop falling for this stupid shit and play a game that requires real effort and has real obstacles.
>>733012394You're going to look silly when everyone is playing RTS.
>>733012593You're free to criticize SupCom FAF.
>>733008972>>733009316Oh yeah I did the tutorials when I had game pass and tried out AoE2DE, they were nice and I'm glad they kind of acknoweledge the "meta" aspect of the RTS games (ie the faster you manage base building and the faster you handle troops and explore, the better the game is than just AFK deathball after 4 hours of resource collecting). It'd be cool to see more tips as well like good ways to micro for kiting or stuff like "cloning"
>>733012573>heh youre better than meTypical? Every day babby
>>733012075That's nearly all video games retard
>>733012794>Heh, I can beat you at this one game because I spent my life on it. W-what's that? You want to play me at a D-DIFFERENT GAME??? AIEEEEEEEEEEE
>>733012961Naw just the specific crap you play and I always know exactly what kind of person is saying this stuff. They fit into a very obvious and bland niche.
