How do we get normies into RTS? It has to be an RTS with really specific features, because it's really common to make features that vastly degrade user performance and favor.I don't think it should be AoE II because of no attacking while moving, plus the camera is static, relegating camera movement to clicking the minimap.That also discards games like StarCraft, but I would also mention low amounts of units and group sizes.Supreme Commander FA is probably newbies' best first game, as it has zooming and movement attacks as a baseline, plus all 3 of the land, sea, and air fantasy-meets-reality/player fantasy. People who play for one-character gameplay can focus commander rushing, but controlling lots of units (or low amounts of units in higher techs) isn't much different. Anyway, all it would take is some advertising on why the game is better than MOBAs, e.g., better interfacing/control and better adrenergics (the shakes). Team games are common on Forged Alliance Forever, as I know that most people prefer team games.What do you think?A really specific set of criticisms of this all would be really beneficial. If you're reading this, make sure to post. I want to have a really active discussion. (Bonus points for "RTS MMO").
Do we WANT the normies in RTS though?
>>733638267normies are fucking dumb and retarded why would you ever want them in your niche genre
>>733638267add more waifus
>>733638267Normies don't play on pc.
>>733638565Well said, Stellar Blade tier
Make them watch Pure Pwnage.
Demo is coming out in 2 hourshttps://store.steampowered.com/app/4312490/Ashes_of_the_Singularity_II_Demo/
>>733639180Woah, great
>>733638324>>733638370Most people have the capacity to be skillful. PvP games are the most played.
>>733638685The PC gaming demographic is 1.5B. Nintendo sold a Switch to 14% of the US; if they sold a $60 game to just 10% of the PC gaming demographic, they would make 1-2x their yearly income.
>>733640497>Most people have the capacity to be skillful.Yes. People. Human beans.Not normies.
There's Beyond All Reason which feels really nice to play
>>733640720Yeah but it looks like shit.
>>733638267>Make a good RTS game>One that's good at all levels of play, from lowest to highest>Without neutering the genre>Pray that the times suit you
>>733640626PS: That's $9B.
>>733640881>I play strategy games for the looks
>>733638267Total war warhammer 40kI swear if they made this, it would bring the secondary normies like moths to a flame
>>733640665What's your distinction between "people" and "normies"? Do you not think people are 99% the same (not decisions, but drives)?
>>733638267The genre is dead
>>733641782Anon, I...
>>733638267Every time people try to appeal to normies for rts they end up dumbing it down in the worst ways. Also, it's harder on hardware than most genres if presentation is going to be a selling point for normies. Which also usually leads to dumbing things down.
>>733638267very simple anon you hype, you fund influencers you make it look like that playing rts games is some kind of a status symbol, you say shit like "playing rts is BASED dude" 9999x times on the internet etc etc.people dont give a damn about actual quality of games they never did and they never will they dont care about features or genres or anything people are sheep if society dictates them that playing x game is what is they are supposed to do they will do it. so what you do is control society that is to say do marketing.
No one gives a fuck about RTS anymore, other than Koreans (they ruined the genre).
Does anybody have an argument why SupCom FAF *shouldn't* be the #1 choice for getting into and enjoying RTS?
>>733643169Death to those soulless APM bugs. What makes a nation become the sweatiest individuals in the genre, that makes others just throw in their towels and quit?
>>733641782>Total war warhammer 40khttps://store.steampowered.com/app/4199910/Total_War_WARHAMMER_40000/
>>733643219because all rts are fun for different reasons and it's not always the best course of action to start with the 'best'
>>733638267??? FAF has no new players. It's literally the same retards everytime, ~10 games and half of them are locked behind +1200 rating
>>733638267>How do we get normies into RTS?Do RTS actually do strategy well though? alot of the time old RTS's were just about build order. SC and SC:FA had massive battles though, and with that, had a bit of strategy to it.
>>733643509I have nothing against Koreans, but their obsession with "competitive" games is absurd. It's pure autism.>>733643575>4 factionslol
>>733643680>>4 factionsoh you just know they will DLC more.
>>733643596SupCom has QOL that makes other games not worth playing, not to mention the overall variety:depth.
>>733643219the "flow" economy was confusing to a lot of people apperently, thats why they changed it in supcom 2. people go red and dont understand why all their shields are flickering and their factories are sputtering, and dont really know which projects to pull engis off of or pause.
>>733646110That's the most retarded shit ever, it's literally easier to manage than a normal RTS economy.
>>733643680I have everything against Koreans because they keep fucking up games and genres I like.
>>733646312>I have everything against Koreans because they keep fucking up games and genres I like.You mean turning mmos into work all day grindfests?
I'd like to play BAR more but the one time I tried 8v8 it took me forever to actually get a match because I'm not in Europe or the US and it was jittery as fuck.
>>733647313And RTS into bullshit clickfests. And MOBAs into le epic play cancer.
You did buy and BEAT Tempest Rising, right!???
>>733638267Did someone play Perimeter Legate or Perimeter 2?Are they in English (Subtitles are fine)?
>>733648253Yeah, it was great, women should be hotter
>How do we get normies into RTS?they already done that
>>733638324>>733638370This. Why would you want your genre raped by microtransactions and art-breaking cosmetics
>>733643596>halo wars 2 over 1hmmmm
>>733638267You can't, normies play on consoles and RTS really doesn't work without a mouse and keyboard. It's why they died out in the first place.
>>733648917Hello coma-san. It's 2026 now, console refugees flooded the PC market a decade ago.p.s welcome back
Cool story OP. But I don't see any effort from you, or anyone for that matter, to promote the genre here. So either host games or fuck off
>>733649008AI is the only hope for Supcom
I tried playing the first few OG supreme commander singleplayer missions and it was rather... boring?How is sequel any better?
>>733649374No. SupCom never had a good campaign.
>>733638267I don't play RTS games, but the one RTS that had a mechanic that I really liked was the ability to control Arbiter in Halo Wars. I imagine making an RTS like that would just turn it into a top-down game at that point though.
>>733646110bullshit, SupCom2 also had flow economy, they just removed the storage limit so shitters don't waste resources.All they had to do was add better storage buildings.The game wants you to built compact bases where buildings get a bonus next to others, but it turns very micro intensive. Blueprints should've solved this somewhat, but their first flaw is that you can't set an order.If you pause it cancels everything, the terrain can fuck you over and you have to save blueprint in a match.Supcoms production chaining is better than most games, but its far from perfect. Like you can't set production on un-build buildings. Reclaim is also a unnecessary micro intensive task.
>>733651526>SupCom2You DARE speak that name
>>733638267>How do we get normies into RTS?kek you don'tWhat a stupid questionNot even half of RTS """fans""" are really into RTS but just posing like they are, but playing on easy mode and just campaigns building cities
>>733652068I will always fondly remember the magnet weapon, the coolest bullshit experimental even if the rest of the game was a disappointment.I can't imagine how much dev time this thing alone hogged.
>>733638267I played BAR all day yesterday and I remembered why I love RTS when done rightThere's so many things to learn and improve and clutches and teamwork thrown into the equation. They're pure gameplay and spectacle. Won most of them and the others that I didn't still made me want more. I love RTS so much
>>733652403The experimentals were cool, but trhe scale was off, seemed totally detatched from what made supcom 1 great
>>733653004Never tried SupCom2 but sometimes when I read these complaints I think maybe it's good but just misunderstoodIm curious now
>>733638324How the fuck are you going to pay for a new rts? PvP fags don't buy new games.
>>733653004it wasn't just the scale, they meddled with the ttk and the tech tree was a mess. Upgrading your tank to a 3 barrell tank sounded cool but it felt more like 40% upgrade than a 300%. Everything lacked impact, Bombers dropped cottonballs and even experimentals felt more like t3 units because devs wanted them to be more common.Let alone some dumb quirky features like 'half-baked' experimentals.It's like they designed the game after Smash Bros Brawl.
>>733647952Stop trying to play meme modes then.
>>733648764You posted the wrong image. You meant to post this, the hearthstone of RTS.>>733648343That's a tower defense.
>>733654662people still play T&T?I wanted to get into it more and I think the concept has a lot of potential for the fact alone is that you can make it console/controller compatible
>>733651526>Like you can't set production on un-build buildings.You mean multiple-factory cancel units from the build order?>Reclaim is also a unnecessary micro intensive task.It adds a huge amount of strategy, and all you have to do is set an engy every so many units and put them on attack move.
>>733648818It would be a small price to pay for popularity and a good game.
RTS is god tier genre
The closest you get with normie-friendly RTS is Clash Royale. Or another Warcraft 3 map editor. That's it.RTS multiplayer is too complex for an average newbie, and without a proper tutorial(campaign) he isn't gonna bother with it. There's too much basic shit to figure out, and most people won't bother looking up wikis and whatnot, too much effort for too little heat.
>>733638267it would help a lot is somebody would spring for a recognizable license. i'm not trying to play some generic shit like Sup Com or C&C. make it Star Wars, Warhammer 40k, Lord of the Rings, D&D, Mass Effect, SOMETHING, or get the fuck outta my face.
I'm too stupid to play these games. 50 things suddenly start happening at once and I get overwhelmed and just stop playing.
>>733656035>good gamedidn't you read my post?
RTS devolve into one of three very anti-normie graves>korean micro second timer and exact unit build ordersshitty star craft 2 effectively - no one normal actually plays this seriously>spammer with zero concept of counteringcnc and its clones - note the lack of countering is the shitty balance, not the normie failing to adapt>countering exists but builds and faction lead to "dead ends"aoe2 and supreme commander FA - adaption is there but the initial build up + first clash pretty much determines who will win by the 10 to 15min marknormies dont really deal well with any of these
>>733656676>microtransactions and art-breaking cosmeticsThose aren't gameplay.
>>733655874I mean you can't place a factory an queue units on it until the foundation is built. This adds to the blueprint issue where your engi might built pgens first.>>733655874attack moves make them auto claim in the area? Didn't know about it or is this an FAF change
>>733654279You could get a really popular publisher to design and advertise RTS being objectively more risk:reward than CS and MOBAs -- somebody like Amazon. New World had a 900k concurrent for a few months, and you could take feedback on how to make the game more enjoyable. I think it would be pretty successful.
>>733638267>How do we get normies into RTS?never allow that to happen
>>733638565>not Dostya
>>733656863>I mean you can't place a factory an queue units on it until the foundation is built.That's not too bad.>attack moves make them auto claim in the area?Yeah, it's just a one-directional patrol, which also reclaims mass.
>>733658060>New World had a 900k concurrent for a few monthsand where is it now? KEK
>>733656343You have to play MOBAs for approximately forever before you learn what units you're facing are capable of. The genre just needs some tutorials.
Bump
>>733656701>adaption is there but the initial build up + first clash pretty much determines who will win by the 10 to 15min markSupCom's reclaim makes defense really good. Travel time allows you to make more units than them if you keep them on your side, and them feeding mass gives you a huge advantage to put into anything from units to guns to shields, etc.
by buffing handcannoneers. it's that simple.
>>733658592Design problem.
>>733658060What's going to make the AOE,FAF,and SC2 ladder autists switch over to the new game? Stormgate was made for 1v1's and has 50 people left playing it and it's fucking free.
>>733659506Supcoms big maps make the game slow and boring. BAR fixes this by having the map size max out at half the size.
>>733658675The big difference is that you can at least gather the basics by watching your teammates or ask them for advice as you play, and your personal performance doesn't make that much difference. In RTS you either do it right or you die.
C&C are nice but the graphics are ass
>>733659831Good design and advertisement. I just want a multi-core port of SupCom FA. It would be really challenging to make a better game.
>>733660071You already have BAR
>>733659896>Supcoms big maps make the game slow and boring.Seton's would be really fun with a comms premade, and Dual Gap has the tendency to be good every game. I think the need for larger maps far outweighs the plays you get from forcing smaller maps sizes. People just pick the map that they want, and that's been maps like Seton's for a while.
>>733659831The issue with Stormgate is that Stormgate is simply not good.
i want a new game with wc3 style creeping
>>733649374The hard to swallow pill is unless RTS campaigns are designed with good story in mind, they're almost always boring, since they're just glorified puzzle games.
>>733660721Nobody actually plays those though. All good RTS are known for 1v1 matches being the main selling point.
>>733660960>All good RTS are known for 1v1 matches being the main selling point.This is not entirely wrong but it's also funny because gookclick RTS is well and truly dead while single player sandbox stuff like Total War is arguably thriving.
>>733661098there aren't any total war RTS
>Muh normies fallacy>Retard can't comprehend that most people who still sit on this genre started in 90s/early 00s>Back when they were normie kids, with barely-to-no meta/defined strategy, and everyone was a newbie to the genre>Now all that remains are diehard fans and autists with decades of experienceTHE ARROGANCE. But anyway, go club some seals
>>733658060>somebody like AmazonAmazon the worst track record in game making. New World is really the only popular thing they made and even this was just a glass cannon.They bought a fork of the cryengine and supposedly did nothing with it and recently made it open source called O3DE. The only other popular games they have are license games like Ark just so they can censor it for the west.
Base building focused PvE like They Are Billions is the perfect format for normies, just add co-op.
>>733638267>How do we get normies into RTS?I don't want you normalfags into RTS. I'm perfectly content with the ones I have now. Don't need more warcraft reforged, one was enough.
>>733659831The cool thing about stormgate is that it's a good example of spending 99% of your budget on the marketing and forgetting to make a fun, visually pleasing video game. Also nearly no one cares for 1v1s
RTS has been perfected. https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/334920/view/3875973926280115016
>>733659831>make shit game no one asked for>no one plays it>OMG PVPFAGS DONT BUY GAMESJust make a good game. AoE4 was trash when it came out and no one played it. Now it's kind of good and gets close to AoE2 numbers.
>>733661649They have perfected the RTS triangle of offence, economy and defence too. Everything about it is perfect. https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/334920/view/518611248440410918
>>733661649And because you're fighting the game instead of the UI, normalfags could totally get into it. https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/334920/view/3887234011192023190
>>733661649>>733661778no
>>733661898>>733661778>>733661649Unknown inferior ugly piece of shit spammed by only 1 sad fuck
>>733661992>>733662115It's the answer to RTS. It's just right there and has always been there. It's perfection.
>>733638267>expensive to develop>require a big time investment before becoming competent (not even good)>long matches>shit on consolesIt's dead JimFighting games now experience a less extreme version of this problem
I tried Ashes of the Singularity 2, feels like exact same game
>>733664442like what, like Ashes1?I just downloaded the demo, never played 1 though
>>733660131Got any good-strategy 6v6 or lower?
>>733664764Yeah, feels really old visually
>>733665068Zero-K is by far the best for any battle size.
>>733665068Just do a 4v4 BAR lobby
>>733665068AoE4
>>733638267>That also discards games like StarCraftI got into RTS because a friend of mine roped me into playing Starcraft 2 coop mode. Hero units with niche gameplay style and limited units. Streamlined base building as well.I would want to play more games designed like this.
more games like coh when
>>733665316how active is the matchmaking?
>>733665872Most people play on lobbies in casual. Realistically you're only going to get in 1v1s in matchmaking. Your best bet for small teams is to play in Palladium once your ladder rating reaches 2200, which isn't too hard if you understand the fundementals of RTS. People have been playing in the Small Teams lobby recently. Problem is there won't always be a lobby available for small teams so I'd use Zero-K as highest priority then BAR as fallback.
>>733665872its dead
>>733643219Dogshit AIAbsolutely atrocious campaignBetter play TA
>>733662584>it's dead>DEAD I SAY>dead dead dead dead deadWhy do you insist on this stupid shit?
>>733656795>micro-transactions & cosmetics don't affect gameplayYou deserve RTS to be raped. I hope the genre becomes popular and you get nickel & dimed every way.
>>733662115TA family of RTS has had fans on /v/ since the 2000s
>>733638267You're going to have to wait until the next generation (and pray some miracle happens where they actually get smarter instead of dumber), this new one is too retarded for a RTS.
>>733671042YesNot that one tho
>>733638267Good campaigns and good support for custom games.
Battle AcesUpcoming F2P competitive RTSDawn of War 4Also sure to generate some buzz
>>733665316>>733665440>>733665495I meant videos.
>>733671429>battle acesdoa
>>733638267Make RTS less casual and less time wasting
Our answer BAR chads?
>>733668116>Muh singleplayer.
>>733672786>less casual e-sports RTS are a meme, all the tryhards are content to play starcraft or AoE until heat death of the universe and most people just want to smash armies into each other with as little pressure as possible, as >>733672801 shows
>>733672801Nobody cares about that f2p garbage
>>733673617I care about the best RTS out there
>>733672801Rotato with Legion on is the only way to playIsthmus and Glitters are for carebabies holy shit i despise these peopleAnd they keep disabling Legion because they cannot learn new things too
I asked in the neighboring 40K thread but I would like the opinion of you RTS fellows as well:Dawn of War Anniversary Edition is on sale for three burger doubloons on GOG. Is it worth or do I wait until Def. edition goes on sale?
>>733673945Definitive Edition or nothing
>>733674109Are the enhancements of Definitive Edition worth the extra $20? I played the original DoW demo from ModDB and didn't really mind how it ran/played
>>733673617I do
Make more mission based RTS. The genre needs to stop with this hyper APM BS.
>>733672801BAR's greatest differentiator is its high player count. why the fuck would you wanna 1v1
>>733667952It never died.
RTS will be back
>>733676636It's already back. See >>733661649
>>733675072To not get filtered by my team.>>733676636I think RTS will be approximately the 3rd most played genre. That's barring MOBAs getting some godly redesign from creep farming for 75% of the match.
>>733648253qrd?
>>733638267Same way we got them into CRPGs with Baldur's Gate 3. just massively increase the production values of the graphics and the Scenes and then give it a half decent story.
I'm still depressed after Homeworld 3 disaster
>>733675072What I like about BAR is its scalability. You can play 1v1 or 8v8 and it just werks. Same as AoEsNot in Starcraft, its just not a good sandbox.The sweet spot for me is 4v4 or 5v5. Tight teamwork and most units are viable. Some are for small skirmishes and infiltration and some are just superweapons for 8v8.
>>733638267Personally, I played only Total Annihilation.I don't know if it's more friendly toward new players to the genre, but I remember I liked being able to see the units clearly all the time. I felt almost like they had an identity.
>>733677159Era ONE looks goodCheck it out
>>733638324>Do we WANT the normies in RTS though?Literally ask yourself this question.. Do you want RTS to die? Worst case scenario, if RTS does finna pop off in the popular realm, you can stick with brood war for decades more, deadass.
>implying I need more
>>733677819RTS is alive and well without "appealing to a broader audience" faggot.Just because YOU'RE not playing RTS doesn't mean no one is.
RTS are awesome because they're complex and that means they're not accesible to everyoneBecause it's not for everyone. Its for people that finds joy in options and complexity and fast decisions. They're action/strategy games.
>>733638267why do we need a broader audience?fuck that shitnothing is stopping anyone in playing RTS games
>>733673109RTS can only be as good as it's singleplayer part.
>because it's really common to make features that vastly degrade user performance and favorlearn english fucking retard>SupCom FA blah blahyes SupCom's ant wars are what normies are secretly hungering for. FUCKING MORON.
>>733678207>RTS is alive and well without "appealing to a broader audience" faggot.Yeah, if you can say that they're surviving off of one leg, sure. But barely anyone is making enough money off the genre to be relevant.
>>733677718I will, ty
>>733678907Ok.
>>733678371That's obviously not true. People value real players vastly more than AI. See the huge difference in popularity between SP/PvE and PvP games.
>>733678547>learn english fucking retardWhat's actually wrong with that sentence?>yes SupCom's ant wars are what normies are secretly hungering for. FUCKING MORON.SupComs group sizes get smaller as you tech up.
Genre for a thinking man
>>733680598That's fighting games, not RTS.
>>733680871You're so wrong..
>>733680598>>733680871
>>733638324wasn't the normies who ruined RTS with e-sports faggotry
is it too late to get into starcraft 1?
>>733681023Guys, what if -- guys, listen. What if -- check this out -- guys -- listen. What if ... travel time gave defenders the advantage?
>>733681168e-sport is normie adjacent dummy.
>>733681794The problem with this is they're TRYING to push it to normalfaggot territory. And neither normies and non-normies are barely at all interested other than their dedicated small fanbase. I think most of the big games had their peak and most of the esports scenes have died down.
>>733681794don't make me post a picture of those scrawny korean e-sports players. they look like chud incarnate. and it still wasn't the normies who RTS with e-sports faggotry.
nutriments nigger threadyou are all talking with a thirdie using chatGPT
>>733646268problem is engineers don't have a consistent mass/energy drain which makes the learning curve even steeper.
>>733682504Resources used scales with every engineer used (according to build power). It doesn't fluctuate unless you're maxed on resource expenditure, which, as far as I'm aware, reduces resource usage and build power across the board. People already understand "higher expenditure than income = reduced build efficiency than max". What better way is there to do it?
>>733683364a T1 engi building an experimental and a T1 engi building a mass extractor spend different amounts of resources.
>>733683618If that wasn't true, wouldn't they have to massively rebalance resources and techs?
>>733638267bring back the Command and Conquer FMVs with the cheesy porn acting and the hot spy chicks and 80's action movie beefcake guys posing with guns
>>733681023'minds me playing "10 mins no rush" in DoW and 90% players were rushers on hte 10 min mark. The lolz were I was a quickstart player at the time so I was prepared to absorb a rush and my counter spanked them. I got a lot of hate mail when they went bang inside of 12 mins lmao.Into the breach 10 mins no rush was the sign of a shitter.
>>733685235reformat your question and ask againI built like 20 cybran BP stations and my mass went all over the place depending on what I was building. I don't know the math but different mass/HP values is how they should've balanced it from the beginning.
>>733638267Make a casual RTS with team play, slap a pve/coop mode in there, have down time, solve player elimination, have flexible team sizes, make the game look good and be fun to play instead of being embarrassingly devoid of style like all the recent "RTS revival" games that have sunk like stones.
>xhe doesn't have 11 barrels of hell
>>733685616DoW1 is one of the most agressive RTS games out there, like 2 mins and you're already shooting the other player or even lessI had a Chaplain+Grey Knights rush on a 3:20min mark IIRC that was absolute bullshit against most players, but it was a "slow" rush
>>733686248Gotta print myself a Baneblade or a Shadowsword soon
>>733685626In Zero-K, metal, energy and build energy for all constructions are 1:1:1 and build power is measured in metal per second.
>>733686259>chaplainThat is DC shit. Still the point stands DoW has always been a very aggressive rush game to get LP's that which made the old school crowd rage. If the relic forums still existed you'd find rage over that the fact you could not pause inside of 5 mins to sort out shit. If you REALLY go back it was lambasted for having srs action inside of a minute in DoW1 and the drama that caused.>t. orginal gangsterSide note@ people bitching DC came on DVD because "its bullshit fuck you" nit everyone has a dvd drive.>>733686309I like the plasma one (shadowsword?)
>>733638267You don't. A good RTS is inherently too complex for your average normalfag. By the time you make one a retard can play you've stripped everything out of an RTS that makes it good. It's RTS are dead, it's that RTS are inherently the antithesis of modern gaming. Also you don't want to make RTS popular. Never fucking let what you love become popular. Gatekeep the fuck out of it.
normies only play phone shit so you would have to come up with a rts you can play with touch controls
>>733686248I hope Dawn of War 4 is actually good and that it has proper Relic units.
>>733685748Zero-K.>communist economy with no tiers generally causes people to have more cohesive teamwork>chickens mode and can play campaign missions in coopWhat do you mean by down time?>player elimination isn't really a thing due to communist economy, unless your team died>people generally donate a constructor if a player somehow got wiped out anyways, that's all that's needed to get back in the game>communist economy means any team size works on any map in equal fairness of everyone in a team regardless of mex placement>quant's rule ensures all units are interesting and have a strong expression in playstyle, see >>733661649
>>733686798
Reviving this thread with Zero-K.
>>733685626As far as I'm aware, a third resource (build power) can theoretically be arbitrary, but a benefit is being able to have fast but expensive or slow but cheap builds. I would say the game is pretty balanced.
>>733638267do u invite niggers into your haws?
>>733681659what if terrain and field fortifications gave defenders the advantage
>>733638267Make it a popular IP with modern relevence and market the shit out of it.Make an RTS set in an old, popular RTS IP, built it as a return to form and market it as such and don't cancel it.
>SeaPower SeaPower
>>733689802I'm not sure just any IP would work, already popular or not.I have a huge affinity to tanks and robots, though, at least it's realistically what would happen.
>>733643219Half T2 and T3 mass extractor costs.
