Why can't anybody contain their loads any more? Is the desperation for a sudden smash hit really so strong that authors have to powercreep their monsters this quickly?Does the current-day axe really have so short of an attention span?
Oops sorry wrong board I'm a fucking retard
>>733638627Maybe try to read something that isn't shonenshit for once?
>>733638627You would love Toriko
>>733638627D-gray man and terraforming. Entire plot of those two is that mobs rapidly evolve beyond control
>>733638627Otaku time!
>>73363862748 chapters is a lot considering it is like 4-8 volumes of a manga. However, the main reason to powercreep is that you don't want your protag to struggle with basic mobs for 99% of the story if you are doing shonenshit as otherwise the story becomes boring (generally speaking) .
>>733639285D-Gray man lost all hype very early on lol. Level 3 akuma depicted as threat only to become fodder 15 chapters later
This needs moving to /a/ please
>>733639285Level 2 akuma are formidable for a good few volumes. Level 3s and 4s don't last long on the top spot at all.
can we make this /v/ related?I think contemporany action games have a problem with enemy/mob escalation because of iframe dodges/deflects. I think Fromsoft mostly did it right in Elden Ring (not so much previous games), but when i play most games inspired by them, it feels like stuff doesnt evolve mechanically when it comes to defending from them because you defend from it in the same way. You could swap so many early and late bosses, scale up the numbers, and have it work just fine.Older action games on the other hand usually have enemies feel so limited/stale that it also doesnt do it justice, specially when you just attack them in the "dedicated attack them here" window and then you get to combo them for free until they arbitrarily break out. Few games really make me feel like the action has truly evolved and early vs late enemies is night and day
>>733640714I think the author realized it too since there hasn't been a single akuma in the latest 150 chapters
>>733638627It’s like how gases have your characters doing 13638993 damage per hit now. Back in my day we started with 9 HP and hit for 2 damage
>>733638627I mean you cut the fat. If the story is a short series having quick pacing is a benefit. In fact, nowadays quick pacing is almost universally beneficial from books to T.V. Much of it is because the competition is too much and people are too busy to go with slow burners. Also, why isn't this on /a/? It's more active than /v/ nowadays.
>>733641305I know /v/ will probably seethe about it, but Hollow Knight comes to mind as a good example. The initial bosses are meant to be beaten with just walking, jumping and slashing, and they have very limited movesets as a result. Often just 3 or 4 moves. But as you get to the later parts of the game, you will need to stay in the air more often, make use of the double jump and the spells to clear adds or just deal extra damage, and the final boss even has an attack that you can only avoid using the i-frame dodge you get late in the game.
>>733641423>Also, why isn't this on /a/? It's more active than /v/ nowadays.The fuck? No.
>>733638627What is top?
>>733642634Alien Headbutt. Only started this month.
>>733642267hk and silksong are an excellent example of when people actually come up with their own mechanics for their own games, and are immensely better and more popular as a resultIf the average slopvania dev was pitched hollow knight for them to create it, they would make it have a shitty estus mechanic for healing, shade dash would be your default defensive option, and the corpse run wouldnt have the shade mechanic
>>733642909Looks like soulless dogshit
>>733641305>did it right in Elden Ringthey did the worst in elden ring, what the fuck are you even on about?
>>733642909Interesting
>>733641305>>733643290Didn't Elden Ring only have something like 11 unique bosses, and everything else was recycled at some point?
>>733638627Would Bleach have been better if it had been an urban fantasy for more than a couple of chapters?
>>733644581We'd have more Tatsuki. 'nuff said
>>733643290they did it the worst in DS3 because you just roll forward whenever the lategame boss does anything and its pure style over substancein ER its quite different>bosses have some tricky moves where you cant just roll inside their shit mindlessly>almost everybody going into lategame dlc with their defense entirely consisting of rolling got their shit kicked in and are likely moaning about it to this day>far more incentive to use shields, jump over attacks, tanking, hyperarmor, trade, etc while still not necessarily going pure DPS race modeI mean sure, you can technically roll through everything Promised Consort Radahn does after a lot of trial-and-error or looking up a youtube video of it. But in practice, most people who had played souls stuff for autistically long got their shit kicked in if they were trying to just roll, while people who came in with a better defensive arsenal unironically had a great timeThats why ER is actually nice in this aspect of an RPG, you are fighting power with power, bosses get kinda bullshit because youre meant to actually have powerful bullshit yourself when fighting them. And the bar isnt even that high, just a shield and a colossal, or a fancy dodge ash and some status effects, will get you really farNightreign does it even better with the everdarks and the fancy character skills
>>733638627why is the bug dude so zesty
>>733644573it depends on how you look at itSaying a boss is bad because a weaker version of it shows up somewhere is kind of gay and pedantic. Yeah theres a random cave where you can fight a weaker version of phase 1 mohg but that doesnt subtract the overall fightYoud be better off arguing half the elden ring bosses are actually kind of bland, which i really agree with. But in practice it has like 80~ boss-tier enemies that arent just normal enemies with a healthbar, which you may end up fighting like 2-5 times eachpoint being, ER does a good job with the mobs escalating, lategame foes feeling stronger than the early game foes. I just think the actual fights kind of suck compared to what they are capable of, specially after playing the nightlords in nightreign. Im sure FS is about to move somewhere way more interesting than normal old souls combat, based on NR
>>733638627and then those menos gillians in bleach were killed by the dozen with minimal effort during hueco mondo by amateurs that were weaker than ichigo pre-training
>>733641305>I think contemporany action games have a problem with enemy/mob escalation because of iframe dodges/deflects.I really do think this is one of the by far biggest reasons. For action games at least. For as long as a game's movement isn't extraordinarily stiff or comparably slow to all possible threads, then there are countless of ways in which one can avoid harm. But if the game is designed in such a way that harm far outpaces movement, and the only or only reliable ways to avoid said harm is to either implement some variant of iframes or some variant of timed block/parrying, to get through harm without any vital resources being drained. Then your design space is already severely limited. There may be countless of ways one can implement movement to cleanly avoid harm, but there are only so many ways timed impact response actions can be executed. For what it's worth, I won't pretend like timed impact responses or games that are built around them can't still be fun. Even exceptionally so. But it is a difference in kind, and I do think it is a much more limiting design space, and it's reflected in the games and their enemies and how you fight them.
>>733644912Yeah and how many dozens of chapters ahead was that?Escalation isn't what's being taken issue with. It's when it's rushed that it gets devalued.
>>733644912>not canon
>>733644912>>733644918Now play shaman king
>>733644581You mean like the Fullbring arc?
>>733644918>There may be countless of ways one can implement movement to cleanly avoid harm, but there are only so many ways timed impact response actions can be executed.Broadly speaking, for a lot of reasons, I am no fan of cooldown related game design. I don't think it's satisfying to dissuade options, not because they aren't preferable, but because you simply aren't allowed to. But that is its own topic of discussion. But I do quite respect how Hollow Knight put a cooldown on its iframe dash. It meant that you can't reliably rely on iframes to get through attacks and you still need to rely on movement, always. And since the iframe dash is also, the dash, the elements resonate even further. You can't abuse the dash's iframes without also using your dash. Granted that Desolate Dive also has iframes.
>>733641305Resident Evil 4 does enemy evolution best.
>>733644675more Tatsuki is always good.
>>733638627does anybody ever even give a fuck about mobs in shonen? they all get sidelined a few chapters in for the real fights between characters, i really don't like this trope
>>733646402RE6 could have pulled something off but the execution was assIt literally had transforming enemies whose entire moveset could wildly change and they didn't do anything creative or challenging with it
>first decent actual /a/ thread in weeks>but it's on /v/
>>733644693>you are fighting power with power,Unless you're busy screeching "you didn't beat the game" and now have to do everything with a lvl1 club to back up your faggotry on a dravidian pottery discussion forum.
>>733646598Their designs are always cooler than the inevitable human form of the big shots, which makes me sad. Human form being considered more divine or stronger is tragic for Asian monster design.
>>733638627Lack of creativity. The can't imagine cool unusual winnig conditions for the protags so they just resort to "unga bunga he stronger than the other".
>>733644793>it depends on how you look at itSo yes. Got it.
>>733646960>oh man this boss was cool>(fight weaker version of the same boss again 15 hours afterwards)>WTF?? BOSS RUINED??autism
>>733641305I like games where even the basic mooks will wreck you if you start getting sloppy. MGR:R (on revengeance difficulty), Hyperlight drifter, and Ultrakill does this well. Also the player power comes from more diverse arsenal that you need to know how to use instead of just stat-checking enemies while still making the player feel more powerful as the game progress and the stakes gets higher.
>>733647003Not even the main point people harp on about, you disingenuous faggot, although that does detract from the game, yes.
>>733646753It's common knowledge that Visitor threads get the best content. They lack all the "people" from the relevant board with vested interests to make discussing the matter as insufferable as possible. On /a/ nothing would be discussed and instead Bleach would be called shit, followed by someone chiming in that Naruto is shit too and it goes from there.
>>733646803well for me it's the opposite, i generally prefer human designs and in the (few) shonen mangas i read i just can't feel anything about the monsters beside being filler for the mc to level up before the actual fights start. either keep the mobs throughout the series, make the fights all about monster/ monster-like characters or straight up take them out of the equationi feel the same for vidya mobs too, but at least they tend to stick around and be a threat. monster bosses are fine as long as they're well designed... which in most cases aren't
>>733647145I was actually talking about the subject of the thread. On /a/ you can only find generals anymore.
>>733644581Nobody cares. Bleach has always been kinda shit and borin.
>>733638627You think that's bad.
>>733647145/a/'s absolute state has convinced me waifuism, meme-spouting bullshit and cgdct is a bane for entertaining discussion, unlike what many retards here like to spoutstorytimes being so prevalent feels like a knee-jerk reaction to all the stupidity in place
>>733647194>make the fights all about monster/ monster-like charactersI'd like this the most, My preference would be to have the big shots be more monstrous, but with character and personality. That's what I expected with Bleach as a kid, Arrancar were a letdown on design department. I do agree that the current default is the worst of the options like you mention.
>>733647387>waifuism, meme-spouting bullshit and cgdctI mean, that's just /v/ gacha threads. Or loli and outright vidya waifu threads. Same shit.
>>733641305Library of Ruina has godly mob evolution from a ludonarrative perspective, and great from a gameplay one. You start off fighting beggars with rusty knives until you fight well-fed beggars, then semi-competent people, and then competent people, up until you're fighting hit squads and well-trained mercs along with everything in-between. The creep is so gradual that it scratches every itch perfectly.
>>733647387>waifuism, meme-spouting bullshit and cgdctAll garbage, if you want to have mindless fun, you lurk and post on shounen threads. Moeshit threads are both too dead and too samey.
>>733647258Wasn't the deal with Claymore that it was kind of about ghouls or something, but they were piss weak and a complete joke and the real threat were just the claymores gone berserk?But then it turned out that it was entirely by design as the whole thing was just a nation-wide weapons experiment, pretty cool actually.
>>733646960>>733647135If you think ER is bad, you should play the original LotF. Literally the first few enemies you fight are giant flaming skull death demon knights that die in a couple hits. Where do you go design wise from there? The answer is: You don't. Every enemy after is just a variant of them with more health, or the typical cunty Soulslike enemies like the fast flying one, or the basic zombie. The funniest part? The hardest mobs in the game are basic humans. Yup, basic ass humans with armor and no other powers beyond that. Should be studied for how genuinely bad the mob progression is in that game.
This has bothered me for a long time.I yearn for B/X progression where things clearly go "bigger and monstrous = more dangerous".I tried playing WoW and the fact you go from killing fully trained and armed invading warriors to killing literal destitute human beggars just completely took me out of the game.According to WoW a starving beggar is more of a threat than orc scouts and warriors ( who have already SUCCESSFULLY launched an raid )
>>733647707Hey hey, there was a big buildup to the "basic humans" being super experiments with mysterious powers produced to counteract the demons.
>>733647135>Not even the main point people harp on about, you disingenuous faggotIt literally is. Because else ER has 50-80 brand new bosses and theres nothing to complain about.The only fromsoft game with a consistently fresher, newer roster is Sekiro, and people still bitch and moan about sekiro reusing bosses because thats how pedantic they are, even if practically zero of the animations were reused from something else(This is also completely besides the point of the discussion which further solidifies this complaint as pure unfiltered pedantic faggotry)
>>733646894Another reason Fullmetal Alchemist is great. There are no consistent mobs for the homunculi to replace.
>>733639147Nobody likes Toriko
>>733647258Awakened ones don't appear until volume 5 or 6. After we have some big Yoma and a long flashback.
>>733647967Everyone knows the bulls in Sekiro use the Asylum demon moveset.
>>733648014I like Toriko and so does Roboco & Me's author
>>733648101>everyone shills isshin the sword saint>its just a reskinned centipede demon
>>733641305Here's my attempt at making it /v/ related. Why the fuck isn't there a game where I can beat up aliens as a big muscly wrestler?Like fuck where's Guacamelee 3 that shit was cool
>>733638627Mob escalation? Nah man just fight the same 3 enemies the entire game lol
>>733648532I knew the game was overrated when I fought the owl and he used the flailing hollow set.
>>733648014Actually Toriko is gourmet genius.
>>733647852And it never goes anywhere does it? At most we get some tiny insinuations that the MC was experimented on and the final boss is a generic Resident-Evilesque blob monster of "perfected humanity". Other than that it's just fiery demon knights.
>>733647049>and Ultrakill does this wellUltrakill literally has the coolest escalation for secret super giga rape bosses.https://files.catbox.moe/w5wzce.mp4
>>733647967People mostly complain about the amount of generic bosses in total along with how often they're recycled and hp-bloated, not whatever you're babbling about. Plus, back to the original topic, mob escalation is kinda lame when some tiny ants and wolves feel comparatively strong against huge ass bosses/dragons. The devs balanced the difficulty mostly on which area you're in but got slack when it came to designing new/more interesting enemies as you move to new zones. Typical kusoge devs get around this with the all-powerful recolor, while From only used it somewhat, which ironically made mod progression feel extremely bad, no matter how hard you sperg and thrash about it. How can you misinterpret this point so poorly and then try such a lame attempt to misdirect?
>>733644693This reads like cope, but I am too tired to argue with you.
>>733649358there was nothing to misunderstand, people up there only moaned about reused bosses and nothing elseTheres little room to argue that elden ring does not evolve the enemies upwards, because theres constant bitching about how lategame bosses will often never stop attacking and how just trying to roll through everything is an easy way to get your shit kicked in, and normal enemies also tend to get more annoying as you go forward> the amount of generic bosses in total, that was literally already mentioned, see >>733644793>Youd be better off arguing half the elden ring bosses are actually kind of bland, which i really agree withand then>recycledInherently it doesnt have anything to do with the point of the discussion, if anything it would count as enemies not evolving but in practice they keep placing the later recycled enemies in much more annoying or ganky locations, and its just one part of the game you have to willingly opt for as opposed to just going towards the major bosses and main content of the game>HP bloatNigga what? Elden Ring bosses easily get squishier the further you progress, unless youre just not scaling yourself. I so much wish they got rid of that boring estus healing mechanic so they could make bosses with larger HP bars.
>>733649358What you said literally doesnt fucking matter here, that has nothing to do with what the anon was talking about. Matter of fact is that ER is not like DS3 where you defend from Gael in the exact same way you defend from Vordt, rolling forward whenever they attack you. Unless you prefer to die 10-30 times per boss, that is. And about half the time they reuse a previous boss in a random catacomb youre fighting 2-3 faggots at once or in an infinitely more annoying arena. I too dont like fighting an ulcerated tree spirit for the 5th time but it doesnt change the fact ER evolves the defense way better than typical soulsslop>>733649637>I have no argument but im a whiny faggotI dont even like ER very much but its possible to agree on something it did well instead of being preemptively butthurt about how you couldnt figure out a way to deal with the bosses outside of rolling
>>733649358>Typical kusoge devs get around this with the all-powerful recolor, while From only used it somewhat, which ironically made mod progression feel extremely badFucking finally someone put to words what I've had on my mind for years. Had a nagging feeling about the game I couldn't get out of my head and this is why. The game really needed another year or two to stop it from being bad in the end.
>>733650057the horse faggots are a good example>Early game horse guy is really just a golden dude on a horse with a halberd>in leyndell you get either a draconic tree sentinel with fireballs or huge shock AoEs snd more annoying attacks, or you go through the main route and face 2 normal golden horse guys at once>in the end of liurnia you have a magic version that occasionally spams glintblades and some fancier trickier combos>you fight the same magic horse later without changes, which is actually gay as fuck, but its cool how you likely got magic reflects/magic parries so you get to stomp her in a fun way youd otherwise miss out on
>>733649724>Elden Ring bosses easily get squishier the further you progressThe generics do in fact get more health as the game goes on. This is a fact and you arguing against is is sad>I so much wish they got rid of that boring estus healing mechanic so they could make bosses with larger HP bars.God damn it, I've been baited this whole time. Slow day on the general, eh? topkek
>>733648014Toriko manga is fucking awesome. The shitty anime ruined it's reputation forever
>>733650421>get more health as the game goes on. its a fucking RPG retard. they get like X% more health when now you have much more crazier busted spells, easier access to status effects, tanking, bigger FP bar, more stamina... all while having a little bit higher than X% more damage on top. unless you wanna go down the route of:>higher hp is inherently bad no matter how it mechanically plays.>>733650421it is kind of fucking gay when you can kill a boss in 1-2 minutes of attacking to balance out the fact they can burst you down in 10 seconds and you have limited heals. nobody has ever praised elden ring's healing mechanic for being "fun"
>People try to discuss vidya combat>Elden Ring praised in passing>Now entire thread is bitching about fromsoftWhy is this board so gay and mindbroken
>>733647387>>733647145Fact is, the worst parts of /a/ are the generals. You even have Jump threads becoming generals because Kagurabachi fans can't stand not discussing their shit, but they don't want their own threads because of the stigma.
>>733648014wtf, fuck younot torikos fault shonen jump asked for a quick ending
>>733638627It's just a cheap and easy way to raise the stakes and prolong the story as you can give the characters some random excuse to power up or get character development. Incidentally, it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy because then the characters get too strong and now you need to raise the stakes again or it becomes boring. It's also just inherently a flaw of stuff like manga or comics where they're not really made with an end in mind for most cases so they just end up asspulling through the next issue or villain of the week. This also happens in vidya but that's usually just to pad out play time or fulfill power fantasy which is a popular thing for games.
Severance hit a sweet spot, but mostly from the combat system being well enough designed that you don't need that many +1 and +2 variants of the enemies.
>>733651060Tards gonna tard, and ERtroons gonna chimp out. Simple as.
