What does this even do?I'm playing older vidya and turning this on halves my frames and cripples the responsivess, but I don't see the graphical effect. Maybe it's a bit less jaggy but only a little bit.
DLSS 4 wins again.
>>733785716super-samples the edges to stop aliasing
>>733785716>older vidya>halves my framesholy potato alert
>>733785928Going from 400fps to 200fps by activating this at 8 x is halving the framerate, yes.
>>733785716>What does this even do?Smoothes the edges of geometry. It worked nicely when games were still in the early 3D stages and the graphics were cardboard-tier. Nowadays it's obsolete for plenty of different complicated reasons, mostly because graphics advanced past cardboard-tier which created many other sources of visual artifacts MSAA can't fix, but though you'll find a lot of folks online still mad that it's gone.
>>733786265SMAA smooth edges. MSAA supersamples them. Big difference.As for everything else in your post it's fucking retarded.
>>733786053>200fpsliterally unplayable
>>733788216>SMAA smooth edges. MSAA supersamples them. Big difference.And supersampling the edges achieves the smoothing effect. Supersampling does produce an overall softer image than a non-supersampled image. Go look at raw native vs 8xSSAA and you'll see that the latter looks softer overall, despite being much better.>As for everything else in your post it's fucking retarded.Like what, nigger?
>>733785716>I'm playing older vidya and turning this on halves my frameswhat toaster are you on that you notice this shit?
>>7337888937800X3D + 5070tiI notice because I have the MSI Afterburner overlay up and I can see that my FPS went from 411 100% GPU usage to to 231 100% GPU usage.
>>733788216everything he said is correct dumb fuckgeometry is like 30% of what causes jaggies in games now, the rest is from shaders and sampling conflicts because of detail going subpixel levelmsaa is utterly useless at handling those problems and would still be useless even if we went back to forward rendering
I have 5700X3D and 9070XT. I can play certain AAA 2016 game at 6K at 90 fps.Running at 100% GPU utilization causes significantly increased input lag. It's better to cap the framerate.And MSAA is basically optimized supersampling. Instead of running the whole image at increased resolution, the GPU runs only the areas where the jaggies are at higher resolution. But it has limitations, like with alpha transparency and at some point supersampling is more performant than MSAA with alpha.Going above 4xMSAA is pretty much pointless.
>>733789615meant to >>733789073
>>733789404Wrong, MSAA works on the edges of geometry. So it would be even better now than on older low poly content.
>>733789969>MSAA works on the edges of geometry.Are you fucking retarded? That's exactly why it doesn't work anymore.
>>733789969again: geometry is not the (main) cause of jaggies anymorea piece of fence having too many triangles on its edge for your resolution is not the problem nowthe problem is the whole fence, not just edge, has a thousand bullshit little details jammed across its surface and our usual resolutions do not have enough pixels, on top of that it is being bombared by a gajillion shaders and illumination effects every framethat's what causes games to look like pixelated shit in motion now when you turn off AA, not a lack of geometry coverage
>>733790269Just because modern graphics rendering is a house of cards that relies on smearing and blur to cover up artifacts in other bad techniques doesn't mean MSAA is bad. We would be much better off if Unreal graphics retards stopped chasing raytracing without enough samples and other temporal techniques that rely on smearing multiple frames together to work. MSAA would force them to drop these bad techniques in fact and actually bring back image clarity.
>>733790269A better analogy I've read somewhere else is that a 2000s game is like a matte painting with its edges jagged, and MSAA was the very precise eraser that smooths the edges out. Whereas 2020s graphics are like a watercolor made out of 50% rough matte paint and 50% glitter, and there's nothing an eraser can really do to fix this. So instead of fixing the painting, the artist just gives you myopia so you don't notice the problem.
>>7337857164K display + 2x MSAA + FXAA is the ultimate god gamer combo. TAA and DLAA fags don't @ me.
>>733785716>I'm playing older vidyayou can already play that shit at 4k 200+hz so who cares
>>733790647i never said msaa is bad, did i? but it was built with the idea that aliasing comes from geometry, and ever since pixel shaders became a thing this stopped being the case. msaa is very good at what it solves but what it solves is just a small part of what's problematic doesthe only way to make msaa the alpha and omega is to just go back to old graphics which is fine i guess but the industry will never do that
>>733790943>but what it solves is just a small part of what's problematic doesbut what it solves is just a small part of what's problematic today*of course the ACTUAL best way to solve the problems of jaggies and lack of samples is for everyone to just get higher res monitors but hey people have been stubbornly stuck on 1080p for over two decades now so good luck with that
>>733785716It is the best AA considering cost/performanceIt doesn't blur textures, highlights are accentuated and there is no motion blur added. SSAA is expensive.But to use that properly you need to make the rendering pipeline work with it, because if it doesn't you get what happens in Baldur's Gate 3 where MSAA simply does not work.
>>733786265Source 2 still uses it and it is flawless.The issue is relying on Deferred Rendering to increase fidelity. That's why every game looks like shit now.
>>733785716It was never that great in the first place. I replayed Doom 3 (old version, not the BFG shitheap) last summer and tried 4k max AA just to see if the problems ever fully go away. That's 3840x2160 with16xMSAA. And you can still see shit like moire patterns on the metal grates or sparkling railings whenever the light falls on them. Not visible in screens but really obvious when I moved the camera or doomguy.Of course it's not nearly as dogshit as TAA was, especially early TAA. That one was actually a catch-all solution that fixed all the jaggies even in motion, but the smear and blur it brought was an even bigger issue than the jaggies ever were. My point is if you want actually good antialiasing just force SSAA from your control panel.
>>733791659>It is the best AA considering cost/performanceMaybe in older Forward rendered games. The cost/perf ratio in deferred games, even if we pretended MSAA looked good in them, is utterly abysmal. Better to use SSAA.>But to use that properly you need to make the rendering pipeline work with it, because if it doesn't you get what happens in Baldur's Gate 3 where MSAA simply does not work.You need to use a completely different rendering pipeline for it to work. Basically every modern graphically heavy game that tried to use MSAA in deferred rendering has resulted in useless MSAA, no matter how hard they tried to make it work. The way to make MSAA work is switch to forward or forward+.>>733791813It's not Source by itself. Titanfall 2 used a modified Source engine and yet MSAA was kinda useless in it. You need to do a lot of side work to make MSAA play nice with graphically heavy games, which Valve did but many devs won't do.
>>733791659>>733791813it really is incredible how you can explain exactly how something works to tech illiterate retards on /v/ and they will refuse to accept it, as if technology is some kind of magic spell and the problem is that the wizard didn't cast it correctly
>>733785716very inefficient and old anti aliasing.MSAA is super sampling, but only for what games thinks its an edge. It sees ur screen, renders it at a multiplied internal resolution depending on your setting (2x, 4x, etc), but then only displays the result on your edges instead of the entire screen.Even with just it being edges, it still has a massive performance cost and the crippling flaw of MSAA is that its ass at detecting what is an edge. It doesnt work on transparency, small objects, fine lines, displacements, particles, etc. Its just a very very expensive anti aliasing that works only on completely solid geometry.If you want an answer for what is the best AA solution, DLSS 3 DLAA is by far the best looking AA gaming has ever had, DLSS 3 DLAA has no artifacts, no stability issues, and runs better than any other option. MSAA is just outdated and bad, and it also is an AA option that basically requires another layer of FXAA, and FXAA is blurrier and worse looking than any TAA or bad DLSS implementation.
>>733792419DLAA still have motion trail in dark scenes.
>>733792419>>733792756I think that FSR2/3 was actually better in native AA, but it's more demanding than CNN DLAA.
>>733785716Rather than sampling pixels along geometry edges a single time per pixel, it samples multiple times per pixel in slightly different locations and then averages the result. This results in smoother edges with less visible aliasing.
>>733785716It MSs your AA.
>>733785716Games used to look stable but jaggy. This fixed the problem.Games today looks jaggy and super unstable due to a shit ton of reasons. MSAA does not fix the instability so it was abandoned, and now we've switched to a different (arguably worse) type of rendering that makes MSAA have a raytracing-tier performance cost. So even if it stabilized the image, it'd be way too hard to run for most people.
>>733786053>have 4090>want to play farcry 3>max it out at 4k>8xmsaa>can barely hold 100+ fps>gen 7 era game>ungodly sharp imageMsaa is cool but I understand that its not widely supported anymore
>>733785716Smooths geometry edges. Rasterization takes a sub-pixel sample usually from the center of each pixel. This results in jagged stepping where one pixel's center aligns with the edge of an object and the next pixel's center aligns with the background, these pixels cause a step effect and can flicker between the two colors per frame. MSAA takes 4 sub-pixel samples at geometry edges, using irregular patterns rather than a square grid, and outputs the average of their colors. This results in smoother geometry edges with less aliasing.If you're playing older games at a modern resolution i.e. much higher than originally designed for, you are not going to see much aliasing, so AA is not going to do much.
>>733791813>The issue is relying on Deferred Rendering to increase fidelity. That's why every game looks like shit now.Well done for being able to parrot something you heard without understanding it. Now let me tell you why you're wrong. MSAA works on geometry edges - that's it. Hard edges of solid geometry. With rudimentary 3D graphics with simple textures and simple effects, that accounts for the majority of aliasing. Fast forward to 2026, there is aliasing from specular lighting, sub-pixel texture crawling, transparencies in hair and foliage, etc making the overwhelming majority of aliasing. Geometry edges are a tiny fraction of the detail on screen at a given time, and all of that detail can generate aliasing. You can test this for yourself. Go boot up RDR2, turn off TAA, FSR, and DLSS. Run at native resolution, no supersampling, and enable MSAA. Take a look around and tell me exactly how much aliasing MSAA gets rid of. This isn't a particularly recent phenomenon either. Crysis 2 experimented with temporal rendering for foliage as far back as 2011. It's a viable technique when most of your detail comes from geometry edges, but as detail increases, it becomes useless. this is as much the reason for its obsolescence as its performance cost with deferred rendering.
>DLSS:Quality>clean edges and better performanceWe don't appreciate how good we have it these days.
>>733789969>Wrong, MSAA works on the edges of geometry. So it would be even better now than on older low poly content.I'm making some webms for you, stay tuned.
>>733795754dlaa is the only acceptable form of AI anti-aliasing
>>733795565No, the actual logical explanation is that every single programmer working in the industry simply forgot how to do it all at the same time. I heard that somewhere and it sounds reasonable.
>>733794613>Far Cry 3Man I've been trying out that game too but it keeps crashing on me, did you experience that too?
Which form of AA is the best?
>>733789969>MSAA works on the edges of geometry. So it would be even better now than on older low poly content.Here's Deus Ex Mankind Divided. One of the last bastions of MSAA in big games. Definitely not a low poly game. 1080p resolution. Specs are 5800x3d + 4070 ti super.This is a crop of the game at 1080p without any antialiasing. No zoom, just crop. It's inside a building during daytime. There is always a mild camera sway when you're in Cover mode so it's a perfect opportunity to showcase how MSAA holds up, motion scenarios are always better for judging antialiasing or image quality.Having no antialiasing, everything maxed out, 1080p for me hovers around 210fps but only at around 65% GPU usage, which means if the game wasn't bottlenecked by my CPU then the GPU would allow the game to go up to about 300fps. Observe the raw results.
>>733798456Now 1080p 2x MSAA. It still hovers around 210fps but now with nearly 100% GPU utilization. So even if my CPU was absolutely perfect and created no bottleneck, I'd still have around 210fps. So that's an immediate 30% burden on the GPU by activating MSAA 2x.
nvidia had to concoct a new way to do anti-aliasing for every new card generation. there was a brief window where developers were offering the full gamut in a game and you'd be absolutely boggled by which of the 6 different antialiasing methods you were supposed to turn on?Nvidia was pulling the same trick with DLSS with how they were holding the newest DLSS model hostage to the newest released card. of course now Nvidia has dropped gaming because they're busy making trillions off of Sam Altman's ScamAI shit
>>733798532Now 1080p 4x MSAA. 156fps now. So that's almost an extra 50% GPU burden compared to having no antialiasing. This is a bigger burden than heavy raytracing in modern games. For what? Observe the results. Where's the anti-aliasing?
>>733798595Now 1080p 8x MSAA. 69fps. So from 300 to 69, that's about an extra 75% GPU burden compared to no antialiasing. This is a path-tracing tier performance drop. Where's the 75% improvement?
When did graphics get so fucked that you have to choose between shitty early LCD ghosting (TAA) or Playstation 1 dithering? Seriously, try turning off TAA on a UE5 game and see what horror is underneath the TAA smear. I still can't believe that modern game graphics are like this.
>>733798658And finally here's rudimentary TAA + a sharpening filter on top. It has a GPU cost of approximately 7% in total, it runs about as fast as having no antialiasing on.This game is like a perfect microcosm of why MSAA died. Rapes your GPU and for what exactly? Takes care of the fraction of the jaggies, but misses many of them and does nothing to fix the poor image stability. Cheaper alternatives do more and require far less tinkering to function, even though they come with their downsides too.And even if this game was somehow fully converted to forward rendering, MSAA would barely do anything more because the image problems don't come from jagged edges but so many more other things MSAA cannot target.There are of course situations where a developer can go out of their way to make MSAA function correctly but it requires many other compromises (such as a complete rework/swap of the rendering pipeline), extra measures, and usually means the game is going to be graphically conservative or made for VR.If you think this is a scam or if you for some reason think the webm format disqualifies the results, I can upload the full recording on youtube.
>>733795565It is even worst than that, previously back then GPUs had fixed pipelines and to make smooth edged textures you just used smooth edged alphas, but now due to pipelines being programmable you would have to render any such material twice due to z fighting, so devs instead opt to clip the alpha values to avoid that
>>733798456>>733798532>>733798595>>733798658>>733798795>trying to reason with retards on /v/
>>733785716>urning this on halves my frames and cripples the responsivess,it does EXACTLY that :)
>>733794613>4K>8x MSAA> I understand that its not widely supported anymoreI don't think you understand anything.In fact, I am certain you are retarded.
>>733795754Guess how I know you're a console peasant who has never seen a game rendered at 1080p native in your life.
>MSAA won't work in modern engines!!Kevin BTFO you retards a month ago. Poorly implemented MSAA is not proof MSAA is bad.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxCMaTEoBoI
>>733798595>retard fails basic arithmetic> This is a bigger burden than heavy raytracing in modern games
I miss msaa so much. Fuck deferred rendering
>>733799967Heavy raytracing in modern games is usually an extra 30-40% GPU load. This is more than that. Anyway thanks for confirming that you don't have any actual argument to what I posted, if you had you would have said so instead of this.
3 decades of mainstream 3D graphics and fuckers still can't figure out how to solve jaggies. Not just that, general image quality is worse now. And now I have to accept artifacts and ghosting as the new normal. Absolute insanety.
>>733799696>the reason MSAA has a high cost in deferred renderring isn't because of deferred rendering, it's because of stuff i'd fix by completely rewriting how deferred rendering works!people watch this tard?
>>733800714>3 decades of mainstream 3D graphics and fuckers still can't figure out how to solve jaggies.there's a very easy fix for that, literally just stop pretending it's 2004 and get a higher resolution monitoras long as you stay on your 1080p monitor forever things can't get better for your image quality
can't believe people fall for this shit kek/v/ complains about raytracing being too expensive and then say they like MSAA lol
>>733800714Jaggies are best solved by moar pixels. A 4k 27" screen ALMOST solves jaggies when actually running at 4k, but not quite. Still need some moar pixels. Of course since then we lost the ability to run games at high res and they've added all kinds of blurs and shitty effects that need to be smoothed over multiple frames so it's basically all out the window now.
>>733785716https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisample_anti-aliasing>>733785860SSAA is different and is more costly.
SSAA solves your problems>NO FUCK YOU WITCHER 2 UBERSAMPLING REEEEEEE!No such thing as a free lunch.>>733798456Based DXMD explainer.
>>733801507It doesn't make any sense for games having worse image quality on 1080p than 10 years old titles on the same resolution.
>>733801694or how about devs lrn 2 unfuck their shit rather than just going "just buy a meme 4k goy" hmmmmm?
>>733802250Enjoy your smear & blur then, you're the target audience
>>733802216but it does. raw image quality of 2015 games was in fact worse than the raw image quality of 2005 games, 2015 games look way more aliased in motionwhy? because the more detail and graphical shit there is underneath a pixel, the harder it is for that pixel to reliably always extract the same result every single framewhen you're playing UT2004 and a pixel is just hovering over low poly cubes it's extremely easy for that pixel to make the right choice every framewhen you're playing some goyslop like Alan Wake 2 a pixel is hovering over 200 different details being bombarded by all the rt and noise and shit, it's hard for it to make the same choice every frame. so across frames it's going to look either pixelated or blurry, your choiceyou could fix this by getting more pixels. after all, people did move from 640x480 to 1024x768 and then 1080p eventually. but as we've learned that's not an option people are willing to go for anymore, everyone's still at 1080p and asking for things to stay the same.
>>733802419
>>733802678That's bullshit but I believe it.
Basically devs run their shaders at shit tier resolution like 540p (or quarter res) so it doesn't bog down the systems and so even increasing game resolution or using MSAA doesn't work.100% devs fault because then their cop out is "you see you don't want this anyway! here have some dlss yum yum" It's been so bad that now you get consumer literally begging for DLSS for games.The industry is terminally fucked.
>>733801961>4K image>Disgusting low res fog and grain everywhere. Jebus christo.
>>733795565>parrot something you heard without understanding it.>transparencies in hair and foliageholy shit dude if you said you were a DF employee I would believe you
>IT CANT DO LE TRANSPARENCYMeanwhile temporal retards be like
>>733797612dlaa isn't AIit's just TAA with nvidia sauce and sharpening and people slurp it up
>>733804172Isn't it? They don't run it through the same model as they do with DLSS?
>>733804905They do. Don't be fooled.
MSAA is useless. It is not super sampling.The only AA you should use is:For old games:Wide Tent/Quincunx/FXAA (High quality via injector, NVIDIA control panel version isn't good enough).For newer:TAA/FSR/DLSSAA does cost a lot of performance. MSAA is useless. Super sampling is not. When it's wide tent. Wide tent and Quincunx can be MSAA or Super sampling. Both good, super sampling better.Quincunx was said bad by critics (ie Spammers, always shit) because it blurred.Blur is good. It is effective.It should either be all nearest neighbour, or blur.Nothing in between. Killzone 2 looked good partly because of Quincunx.There is far too much geometry in modern games to do MSAA. TAA does a comparable job to super sampling for several percent hit to frame rate. Most would consider it worth it as geometry becomes distinguishable at lower resolutions, but under 360 high it gets too blurry in my opinion. FSR and DLSS can go much lower.Wide Tent and Quincunx solve the issue of transparency not getting anything without supersampling.Super sampling didn't used to be an option on NVIDIA and Ati control panels. You had to use NVIDIA inspector, Ati tray tools or Rivatuner.Because it cost a ridiculous amount. More pixels more cost. They should have only offered quincunx/wide tent. More MSAA is stupid and does effectively nothing. And costs a lot. Quincunx/Wide tent should have been the only options for consoles untill MLAA/FXAA. If any AA at all. Higher framerate/ is better, especially on CRT TVs, but blurry AA can function like more geometry. MLAA 1 was great but cost a lot. MLAA2 was shit but didn't cost much.Interlacing is good. It nearly doubled the frame rate for free motion blur and nearly no difference when static. Moving from it was stupid. Higher res is stupid. Increase AA instead of increase res if you really have to. Never ever use MSAA.
>>733805303TAA is too blurry, I can't stand it.
TAA should be free.
>>733805491It basically is, just like SMAA or FXAA. But doesn't matter because it's too blurry and most devs don't tune it well so it ends up being ghosty shit.
>>733804172Retard, TAA gets blurry when you move the camera. DLAA does not, even with forced sharpening you would not be able to hide TAA if any of what you said was correct.
>>733804905yeah and it's not what you'd consider AIyou can't run a standard AI model in sub 2msit's basic bitch TAA where you feed in motion vectors then you get your vendor algorithm to resolve themall nvidia does is apply another algo to hallucinate and sharpen imageit's very convincing for the average dudebro but it's not AI
>>733806853I give up. Nvidia won and brainwashed you. DLAA is Nvidia's TAA solution and that is truth.
>>733806853>DLAA does notGotta have those eyes checked up.
>>733801904>super-samples the edges to stop aliasingYes that's literally what that article says.
>>733785716OHHH MSAA YOU SO SMART MSAA PLEASE MSAA DONT TAKE MY TEETH NO MSAA NOT THE WHIP ILL BE A GOOD NIGGER
>>733807097>>733807173He is right though? DLAA is inherently softer than not having any antialiasing, naturally, but it does not suffer from the temporal blur standard TAA has. This has been the main selling point of the feature for the last year or so.
>>733798456>>733798532>>733798595>>733798658soul>>733798795soulless
>>733786053>8x msaaAre you playing at 480p or something?
>>733804172>dlaa isn't AI>>733806960It is though. It's a relatively simple problem as far as AI goes, it doesn't need to generate or hallucinate anything, just calculate the optimal sampling for a frame given frame data like motion vectors, sampling jitter, etc that most modern engines expose. That's a relatively linear task requiring only a small network.
>>733804172DLAA and DLSS are both advanced forms of TAA and TAAU respectively. But the difference is they're not controlled by basic cvars like r.TemporalAA.NumSamples = # the way TAA is, DLSS/DLAA are also controlled by the ML model/algorithm whatever the fuck you want to call it that makes image quality corrections to the usual temporal flow, and the details about this are largely kept in a black box by Nvidia because they don't want others to catch up.
why do only some games have a DLSS Sharpness slider? is it pre or post?
>>733794613>8xthat's 8 times the samples retard. of course you're gonna take a massive hit
>>733811992Probably because not all devs choose to let you control it. No idea if it's pre or post, but I feel like it has to be post because pre-sharpening before you do the scaling which adds blur seems very dumb.
>>733785716anti-soul blur
>>733792006>The cost/perf ratio in deferred games, even if we pretended MSAA looked good in them, is utterly abysmalThis is a deferred game running 4x MSAA.
>>733800908Altered deferred shading is still deferred shading. Crysis 3 has flaws that go way beyond just bad anti-aliasing.
>>733808023DLSS uses temporal information, the motion trail is there, it can be less noticiable than TAA but it is not gone. It can be heavy during darker scenes. If you never noticed that using DLAA you may have bad eyesight or is just in denial.
>>733788682>>733788893their point is if they don't notice a difference then there's no reason to tank the framerate to 200. even if they don't notice anything, their power bill will.
>cripples the responsivess60 FPS is literally free anti-aliasing. Pause and unpause this video on a 60Hz screen.
>>733814739flicker is BACK baby
>>733785716It was all we needed. That's why it had to be broken.
>>733814525There is a difference between ghosting (every temporal method will have this to a degree) and temporal blur. Temporal blur is the difference between how clear something looks when there's no motion, and the blurriness it gains when there's motion. Ever since DLAA4 this has been 99% solved. Ghosting however has not and never will be, it's just an integral part of temporal shit and can only be minimized.
>>733785716it antialiased edges of geometry, which was all you needed back when graphics were in the early years of true 3dnow most of the aliasing is not even from geometry and devs just shifted the rules of rendering completelynow just use dlaa, or dlss if you're at 4k
