Why every developer beside FS just miss the point of what make the souls genre great?
Souls isn't a genre
>>734207241What point is that?
>>734207265Sorry I meant subgenre
The main thing is that Fromsoft still makes the world oppressive, yet explorable. All that everyone else took away from Dark Souls becoming popular is that they needed to slap on a parry and i-frame dodge to their games and call it a day
Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 are not souls games.
>>734207241fromsoft barely understands themselves, they've flanderized their boss design as hard as they possibly could now.
>>734207241It doesn't take rocket science to use the Elder Scrolls stamina bar and the Devil May Cry invincible dodge roll. Plenty of action games about swinging a sword have come out after Demon's Souls. They're just not always such direct copies of it that it's harder to compare than, say, Lords of the Fallen.
>>734207241> 17 years after inventing the roll slop genre ftfy
>>734207241Yeah every developer seems to miss the point of what makes these games great.Maybe only Life of P nailed it.
>>734207805No thats just the logical conclusion of designing for mass appealBig flashy boss fights are just more popular than tightly designed areas with lots of difficult encounters
Same with Bethesda. Why can't anyone make Skyrim 2?
There are a lot of talentless developers, but it's quite rare to be as talentless as Fromsoft.
>>734207241Other developers make better games.
>>734207717There's a bit of truth to thisThe reality is not even from understands as the continue to prove with each new game adding nothing and 9nly dumbing everything down. What a waste
There is nothing to understand, this sub-genre is simple enough. From fans expect same kind of gameplay anyway, if you don't have rolling around enemies with stamina bar, slow movement, parry and bosses with stupid names like Grug The Masturbator, they simply get back to their beloved series.
>>734207241it's just hard to execute well really. Fromsoft has decades of experience when it comes to crafting interconnected worlds that encourage thorough exploration, they've been at it since KF2 after all. Lies of P came pretty close combat design and game feel wise, but level design was lacking.
>>734208927Let me guess, there is some deepest lore behind this behaviour?
>>734209476The deepest lore is that From Software badly copy-pasted a ton of shit into that game, so it was especially obvious that enemies specifically react to button presses without actually considering what's happening in front of them.
>>734207241Because they only look at the surface. Every game after that was inspired by souls game or their success is either focusing on>omg lets make our game suuuuuper hard and consequential when you lose>omg lets make our bosses really grandiose with Zanzibart names and lore>omg lets make our world dark and sad and oppressive just to BREATH inWhen the thing that souls did right, was what almost all game developers used to make their games like before the philosophy of hand holding players through cinematic experience became the norm. Which is first and foremost, make a GAME, not a movie.Top down gameplay Environment > Enemies/NPCs > playerAnd let the player dictate their approach, with a limited but diverse toolset. Let failure be ok, and not something to be avoided and padded as much as possible.
>>734207241Team ninja makes better games than them, Nioh brutally mogs dark souls.
>>734209396I love P but oof that endgame/DLC level design. just enemy spam spam spam in every room, every corridor, every corner of every level. They just can't let the levels or enviroment breath for even a second, its so tedious.
>>734208839TES6 in 2028-29.Nobody is able to make clones after 20+ years. Devs fucking suck or Gamebryo is better than what retards think.
>>734210127I finally played Nioh and these posts just confuse me more now. It's a good ass game but I'll randomly see posts like this in souls threads acting like it's Dark Souls but better when the combat, RPG mechanics, or even level design isn't even similar or going for the same thing that Souls games are going for.
>>734210127>diablo loot systeminto the trash
>>734207241I've been bitching about that for years.Even Fromsoft forgot why it designed its combat the way it did.Enemies did fuck huge damage because they were readable and telegraphed sensibly so you can watch and learn and it made getting hit only your fault.In elden ring if you get hit it's because you didn't spend 30 tries memorizing every single move, mixup and delay. Or you just got unlucky.
>>734210492Darks souls fag on denial, refusing to believe his baby's first ARPG got brutally mogged by Nioh.>>734210660filtered
>PLEASE MIYAZAKI-SAMA, OUR STUDIO NEEDS THE BB REMAKE TO HAPPEN!!!!>no
>press the i-frame button at the rhythm cue to winThere’s nothing to understand. The difference is that From Softdick was able to fully REALIZE it with stunning worldbuilding and peripherals.
>>734210850>bluepoints idea after getting rejected for BB remake was to do another Demon's souls remake.Even sony saw how pathetic that was and pulled the plug.
>>734210904You're the one OP is talking about.
>>734207241dogshit "genre"
>>734207241From doesn't get it either, every entry gets deeper into windmill flailing i-frameslop.
>>734207241No other developer dares to take a stinking shit in the mouth of their customer the way From does
>>734210838So none of the Nioh posters have played either game are are just shitposters. got it
>>734211097yeah sadly they're too caught up in the playerskill arms race, gotta make each combo sequence harder and harder because people figured out how to roll in demon's and dark souls.
>>734211161I play both nioh and dark souls alongside a random assortment of souls likes.Nioh mogs.
>>734211173It's almost like don't want rolling to be the only answer to every challenge.
>>734211097good thing they added tons of defensive and evasive options in elden ring besides rolling.
>>734209476To this day bootlickers will argue that there is no input reading in ER.
>>734211312well unfortunately between DS1 and ER rolling was just much better than blocking. ER at least does make greatshields extremely strong, which was much needed. most fun I had was my big hammer and greatshield build
>>734208878anon, are you okay?
>>734207241The same way everyone misinterpreted Bamham combat systemEveryone tried to copy it at some point, but not a single one of those copies do it as wellThe same thing is true for Souls-likes: the faggots all think it’s about le heckin’ difficulty and nothing else
>>734211173The idea that the game needs to have ultra challenging boss fights above all else is what has killed the "series". It's like they're hyperfocused on killing the player in boss fights that they neglect the level design and everything else. The idea that the legacy Dark Souls leaves behind is "tough boss fights" is a tragedy.
>>734207241From was responsible for saving gaming from becoming one giant Ubislop festival and you know I'm right
>2deep4u>check points at every boss>infinite health pots>infinite power scaling>patches nerf every boss after 5 minutes
>>734208659I have my own problems with that game (mostly the weapons and legion arms only having two useful mechanics that really should've just been defaults)
>>734207241Not even From gets it anymore. Erd Tree ended up just being a boss rush game and the boss battles suck.
Those developers are just like the contrarians in this thread. They're willfully ignorant and just repeating talking points someone else told them to repeat.
>>734207241FromoSoftware are the best devs in the industry with some of the most talented people in the industry, at all levels. Even if other devs fully understood what it is FromSoftware does, they could not reproduce it, and they have tried. Western devs are not interested in producing quality games or unique games with groundbreaking gameplay mechanics. Western devs are focused only on the money and the budget. They will offshore the work of development to less expensive dev studios in the east, ie - Chinese and Indian studios to name two, and release products unfinished and filled with bugs and balance issues. The west can never reproduce what FromSoftware does.
>>734210715I'll never understand this complaint. You want enemies to never adapt and always just be readable automatons following a script? Never evolve to be something more challenging that requires TIMING so once you knew their moveset, you pretty much we're never hit again as long as you didn't forget.Elden ring is burned in video game history because their bosses weren't the conventional patterned bosses of wait for obvious telegraph and attack animation to end and then hit during their "opening". You had actually time your dodge based on the moment of impact. You can be tricked with delays and mix ups. That's how you'd win a fight in real life. And Elden Ring does have telegraphs, just better hidden. People can still beat the bosses without getting hit. Quit coping. Elden Ring bosses did it right.
>>734215325Elden Ring had the best bosses.
>>734215394This, in fact, if you recently played ER, go back to DS and fight the bosses. They feel like Zelda bosses in comparison.
>>734215693you don't say....
>>734215693>Whoa I played the same series for nearly 20 years straight and now the early games are easy???
>>734215325>You want enemies to never adapt and always just be readable automatons following a script?The best bosses in all of videogame history are exactly this
>>734215940Yea because that's pretty much all there's ever been. You got filtered since you couldn't adapt to new systems and are crying about it. Get fucked.>>734215891Point is, you can play DS a lot, and then go to Elden Ring and get smashed, but playing ER a lot and going back to dark souls is cake walk. Implying that ER forced you to improve your reading and reaction timing when compared to DS.
>>734208659Life of P misses it the hardest. You have 0 combat options, meaning there is also nothing to explore to find.The only game that is actually soulslike is Lords of the Fallen. They copied so much, because it works. They don't need to understand why it works just fucking copy. Holy fuck everyone else is retarded. You've got games like Megaman from the 80s that solved non-linear progression and everyone since has been fucking it up because they need to be unique and innovative. No you fucking don't. Copy what works and make a new environment to play in.Don't even start with the shit where the game is background noise for some garbage puppet show propaganda piece.
>>734208839First company that makes a game with AI friendly mod creation will be successful beyond imagining.
>>734216462>Yea because that's pretty much all there's ever been.And that's all there ever should be. Your immature ideas about how cool it would be if the artificially intelligent robot boss "adapts" to what you're doing are retarded and smarter people got over that delusion long ago. Good content is designed purposefully by humans who can handcraft a challenge to test the player, based on the abilities of the player character, not left to the whims of the jeet-o-tron. We had "adapting AI enemies" in the 90s, they were shit and the people who pushed that instead of developing directed Zeldalike boss battles were lazy
>>734217150>Good content is designed purposefully by humans who can handcraft a challenge to test the player, based on the abilities of the player character, not left to the whims of the jeet-o-tron.Couldn't have said it better myself. Challenges should be sensible and designed with a solution in mind. Challenges without a clear method are lazily made.
>>734215286>>734215693>if you recently played ER, go back to DS and fight the bosses. They feel like Zelda bossesI can speak to that. The very first FromSoftware game I ever played was Elden Ring. I played through it twice before playing Demon Souls next and then Dark Souls and then Dark Souls 2. My immediate thought was, Demon Souls is so slow and the enemies telegraph everything so slowly. I had to look at some videos to make sure this was real. When I played Dark Souls, my first thought was, I thought this game was supposed to be really hard. Demon Souls, DS1, and DS2 are so much slower and easier compared to Elden Ring.
>>734210127LMAO
>>734208878malding and balding
>>734207241You could almost say the same thing about Mario style platform games, except for Virgin making McKids.
>>734213509>that they neglect the level design and everything elseI don't think this is entirely true, ER's legacy areas were generally very good we just needed more of them instead of the open world. it's only really DS2 and 3 that flub the level design I think
>>734207241Lies of p is the best souls game though
So many shitters getting filtered by like Bell Gargoyles and seething about it decade+ later it's really sad
>>734209909This is true. You can absolutely break the input reading by running back and forth and jumping.
>>734217478>Demon Souls, DS1, and DS2 are so much slower and easier compared to Elden Ring.And they're considered better in terms of gameplay for a reason.
>>734211419Equiping a greatshield isn't really 'tons of options'.
>>734207241How could they know? Life is a path of discovery of thyself and the worlds that be. Walk the path brothers and sisters. Assume nothing.
>>734218386I'm glad someone brought up greatshields because LMMAAAOOO in elden ring most greatshields are actually worse than medium shields except fingerprint who the fuck designed this shit?
It's a shame Lance Mcdonald stopped the cut content searches in the Souls communityHe probably found the parallel dimension in Bloodborne, and FROM made him take a vow of silence.
>>734218612this simply isn't true, fingerprint was one of the best ones but there's plenty of other greatshields that work fine, like the Distinguished greatshield and the black steel greatshield. Med shields hover around 50 GB on average, with Greats hovering around the 60s and 70s, while also blocking more damage overall.
>>734207805They first stopped artificially limiting the power level of the player, DeS and DS1 avatars are unathletic dorks even at high levels. But then to maintain the challenge, they've now had to buff the enemies to match. It is an arms race, where every time they make the player's avatar more powerful, they have to scale enemy design to maintain the challenge.
>>734207241So do you understand what makes them great?
>>734207241>no other developer fully understood itIncluding From Software. Demon's Souls is still the best "souls" game.
>>734208126It's very easy to compare them.In fact Lords of the Fallen is straight up shit because ut doesn't understand how to design enemies and hyperarmor
>>734217478>>734215693One big thing for Elden Ring is that Vigor is just way less powerful than it used to be. I basically damage traded with the Capra Demon wearing Sorcerer Robes with 20 VIT and two handing a Halberd and won because his DPS was so low. In Elden Ring there are no story bosses that you can do that with outside of people running specialized tank builds. You basically get 2-3 shot by even minor enemies in Elden Ring. Where in DS1 you can just tank damage from most minor enemies from the beginning of the game and lose only small amounts of HP.
>>734207805true, the amount of retarded combos you have to dodge in Elden Ring to land a single hit with greatsword is astonishingin Dark Souls fights seemed to be more fair where i think there was more windo to land a hit or two yet you still could get obliterated for getting too cocky, meanwhile in Elden Ring you have some Malenia swinging shit that is only avoidable if you learn some retarded moveset that barely dodges that shit
>>734217150Wtf are you talking about? The only faggots who cry about it are you perpetually dissatisfied chuds. The overwhelming majority of people loved Elden Ring's bosses and can't get over them. They defined the decade. You act like Elden Ring bosses were just coded like "just beat the player except sometimes" in mind, with 0 artistry or balance. The fact that they are not only beatable but also memorable, can be trivialized by either, great practice, or build quality, means they fit the criteria you just described. DS bosses had the same endless complaints until the later games came out and now since DS is old, and you faggots run on old = good logic, ER bosses are hated since they granted you new frustration by being a new kind of challenge. >>734217413Yea, every ER boss can be beat with not one but multiple methods. You can even brute force it, if you have enough brute. Get real.
>>734217150>>734217413Turning every boss into an effective puzzle to solve is retarded. Bosses should be extremely dynamic so there isn't a 'correct strategy' that solves everything with little effort once you figure out how to deal with the gaps in the design. That is lazy and replaces game skill with trial and error.
>>734207805I don't get why FS refuses to make the player faster. Bosses in ER fly around the arena while doing infinite combos, meanwhile the player is the same as DeS but with a jump button.
>>734207241Dark souls just hits different. Sure bloodborne was good, but the world of dark souls is just comfy af.All 3 are masterpieces to me. ( yes even 2)
>>734207241The work on enemy design and how the player interacts with enemies and other players that is the foundation of Souls games was the result of Fromsoftware gaining their expertise overtime and specializing. This is why later games that ape From output like Lord of the Fallen, Wuchang and The Surge just end up with much inferior game design
>>734220432>even 2Especially 2.
>>734220196Thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uciba3ju7T8Just admit you guys fucking suck. You're old now, you can't keep up. Old = good because you're geriatric hands and porn addled brains can't process and react to new information like you used to. ER is the GOAT, you're just fucking trash.
>>734207241Tunic understands it 100% but there is no rpg element and builds
>>734220304The player is faster. The run is quicker and lasts longer, the jump is a huge boost, and the rolls are way quicker. Heals also are faster. I liked Nightreign's speed boost dash and think that it should be made a standard part of the Souls game formula from now on, however.
>>734220304Their design is so rigid, you can assume they want you to roll along the ground constantly if that's the solution. Even if they sped up the player, they'd just make faster attacks from the enemies.
>>734207241nobody addresses how outdated player controls are in elden ring. Despite the addition of the jump button, all actors in the game feels like they have their feet glued on the ground. Any NPCs that exhibit "flight" are just creatures that are coded to levitate above solid ground. I'm not sure if this is an engine limitation or something else is preventing them from completely revamping movement but it's painfully apparent how shitty piloting a character in a souls game is.
>>734220680>The player is faster.Barely. Attack animations are still slow too, compared to bosses swinging giant weapons as if they had no weight.>I liked Nightreign's speed boost dashI liked it too, same with climbing. They should've backported it to Elden Ring.>>734220698>they want you to roll along the ground constantlyI used to like these games a lot, but I just can't stand that anymore. It looks ridiculous.
What makes a souls game a souls game?
Is it the unique boss fight experience?
my fav souls games>lords of the fallen(2014)>bound by flame>the surge>the surge 2>elden ring
>>734207241They don't have the brand name on the box
>>734221128>I used to like these games a lot, but I just can't stand that anymore. It looks ridiculous.I wish they came up with something else, too. Sekiro, for example, intentionally makes the dodge worse and block way better. It doesn't have to be exactly like that, but something like it would sure look better.
>>734220304Git gud
>>734220110You are an illiterate retard who can't follow the chain he's replying to
>>734207805>NOOOOO I CANT ABUSE POISEPADDING I NEED MY HAVELS WITH GRAINWOOD RINGLmaoCry about itFunny part is each game still has loads of cheese and easy modes, you're just upest they removed yours because it was boring.
>>734220667This is a readable automaton following a script which never adapts and you didn't understand the posts you were replying to
>>734220667>https://youtu.be/Uciba3ju7T8>2022>still have to cycle between spells by spamming up on the d-pad
>>734222130And It will never change, git gud, shitter
>>734220667This shitty game is so boring
>>734207241Nobody can figure out what makesFrom games great when even From doesn't know. They struck gold with Demon's Souls and have been just making what are basically demons soul's mods adding awesome features with every game and simultaneously removing awesome features present in previous games. The pvp aspect is amazing, and it got added as an afterthought in Elden Ring. Two guys with a coke and a bag of doritos made seamless coop in 5 minutes adding a 6 player limit and base - 100ms ping. From Miyazakis perspective people keep playing their games because they have poison swamps with 3 different types of DoT poison and also girls with cute feet in it. I bet he's scratching his head with hiw successful Nightreign was(is).
>>734207241Using anything but sword and board is just flavor in these games. They are close combat melee based games.They should make a magic focused game already.
>>734222516Works on my machine, git gud
>>734207241Because others can't make combat, enemies, or bosses good
>>734207241Is Another Crab's Treasure actually the best non-Fromsoft Soulsgame?
>>734222650From certainly can't
>>734208751Elphael in ER gives you both.Also Stormveil castle.Sekiro in its.entirety.As much as people like to shit on ER it's THE "I'm gonna go on an adventure on my own to see what I can find" of this generation. Playing ER first blind play through with no spoilers was a magical experience. It still is for people playing the game for the first time in 2026. I replayed demons soul's this year (ps3. Version ofc) and I was surprised that I enjoyed it that much again. It could be nostalgia but the atmosphere is still kino.
>>734222559No it doesn't lol.Magic makes you actively avoid the actual combat system and it makes you play a storyless game on story mode because it's meant for melee. >But we have sword spells nowJust use a fucking sword at that point.
>>734221816>>734221841>>734222329>>734222559I hope this thing is a bot.
>>734222810git gooder
>>734209476There's input reading for sure, the most undefendable shit is animation canceling enemies, Malenia being the biggest offender
>>734220196These statements are in direct contradiction
>>734208235>>734207241IMO every other "soulslike" I played was better than the Dark Souls I played (3). They would just take some of the core mechanics, but add enough variety to make it actually fun. Wuchang, Fallen Order, Stellar Blade(jiggle souls), Jedi Survivor, to name a few of the ones I played. I tried Elden Ring, it was just stiff. Yea you can use lots of spells and weapons, but none of it synchronizes* together if ya know what I mean. All the mechanics are just sort of stacked on top of one another like bricks. The mechanics in DS1-3 and Elden just lack overall cohesion. (Except for maybe the sword and shield?) Please tell me if I'm wrong, I want to get into to Elden Ring, everything just lacked fluid connection for me when I played it.Does anyone else get this sense when playing from soft games, the stiffness and isolation of the mechanics? I've never heard someone mention it, does anyone else feel this way?Sekiro and Nioh are excellent in this regard, clean, fluid, synchronized gameplay. I genuinely want to love Elden RingSend Help>>734209167>>734209396>>734207503
i'm the only poster in this thread that has sued FROM SOFTWARE
>>734207241yet lotf and nioh are both superior "action rpg" games."souls like" is bullshit, demon souls/dark souls/elden slop are just action RPGsall of their mechanics have existed for half a century.
>>734223243I should actually explain why, since you guys are retarded.Trial an error is about randomness or foreknowledge.What you call gaps in the design, aka the intended strategy isn't random, as it was placed by hand, nor does it require foreknowledge, because you can always figure them out in your first try.Also, making bosses dynamic, which you seem to imply requires devs to design them without a particular solution (or set of solutions) in mind, could just as well end with the boss feeling random.What you describing is that roguelike thing we're players are asked to come up with their own solution, aka relying in the game's system instead of scripting.But that's retarded because bosses are a mixture of both approaches. See second phases, which are completely scripted yet effective most of the time.
Is lies of P no longer considered a good soulslike?
>>734223635Nah, generally speaking mechanics in Elden Ring don't really integrate well together in the sense of blending them smoothly, usually. Like you can use certain ashes of war to set up other attacks, but the game generally isn't one where you're moving fluidly from casting spells into melee into weapon arts into spells and back again. It is more deliberate and 'choppy' in a sense, where you do your actions in an order where they're additive rather than multiplicative.
>>734223635>does anyone else feel this way?I do, and I've played all of them. From Software keeps improving enemies while the player character is still the same after 17 years.>>734223905/v/ hates Korean games.
>>734223635I feel the same, but I feel like it's a natural consequence of the game having so many options for the player. How do you make super-fast paced weapons like daggers with super slow weapons like the colossal weapons along with characters not even using melee weapons at all like magic casters all feel consistent and balanced while all being built around the same base player movement and facing against the same enemies? I think you just can't.As much as I personally feel like Sekiro's combat is overrated due to being too simple, the general lack of options does mean they could fully refine the experience that every player is going to have.
>>734223635>but none of it synchronizes* together if ya know what I meanNot at all.>Except for maybe the sword and shield?Except that has no unique interaction unlike poking weapons and shields.You have just no idea what you're talking about.Souls games offer a wide variety of playstyles aka builds because they are RPGs. Cohesion is stupid because that would make every build the same and reduce choice.
>>734223987>while the player character is still the same after 17 yearsThat's cope.
>>734223987>/v/ hates Korean games.In reality, /v/ was flooded with posts saying "JAPAN SUCKS KOREA OWNS" next to a horrible Korean game with wannabe anime art. The natural response was "No."
>>734224051>balancedDevs need to give up on that and just focus on making fun games.
>>734224721Most people would consider balanced and fun to be fairly aligned, noting that I'm talking about from a purely singleplayer perspective as I imagine that is how most players engage with From's games. I saw quite a few players express frustration with the DLC bosses as magic casters, as many of the bosses had what was seen as too many gap closers, and they felt punished for wanting to use ranged playstyles, whilst the base game had some bosses that were fairly trivialized by spells.Having a balance between these two, where bosses remain challenging but not overly punishing, would be the most enjoyable for the majority.
>>734223941>but the game generally isn't one where you're moving fluidly from casting spells into melee into weapon arts into spells and back againAnd why the fuck would it work like that? You want to skip recovery? >Like you can use certain ashes of war to set up other attacksThen you are wrong
>>734222130you can rebind the buttons
Looking back, I think it's clear Demon's was the only inspired game they've made.Everything that came afterwards was just setting up, tweaking and finetuning the money printer:>DaS was laying the groundwork by making sure to become independant from Sony without changing much other than scope. Also getting a wider audience and putting pots of effort into making a good impression with a thought-out open world. (That only lasts half the game and would never be attempted again, because that requires actual effort and coordination, since the game can't be developed in independant chunks by smaller teams.)>DS2 had them testing how far they could steer from established concepts. Also tested to what extend you need actually skilled developers to make these games.>BB tested to what extend the setting was important and how regressing mechanics would be recieved (blood vials vs estus).>DS3 saw the trying to harness the previous experiments' conclusions, making the first true formulated game.>ER finetuned and tested how much reusing assets would be accepted by the now curated and domesticated community.>Nightreign they go all in on asset-flipping, finally achieving near perfection in making a mass produced, easily replicated game to have uninspired work-horse developers churn out for their paycheck.I suspect after the (way too small) puchback from the community (which bears little to no resemblance to that from the original DeS/DaS era) they will make the next one a little less obviously money-grabbing, but still try to cut some other corners, yet unexplored, saving money and seeing how it'll be recieved, further expunging critical voices by disenfranchising them, preparing the community to be the perfect fanboy-golem for a yet unforseen level of slop.Fuck Fromsoftware.
Isn't Lies of P decent?The Surge also got some decent praise.
>>734225325E-celebs like PewDogshitPie ruined From Software's games. They treated Souls games like they were 3D Cat Mario and From Software just focused on difficulty because streamer bait sells.
>>734225052There are Ashes of War explicitly made to knock enemies up or down to guarantee another attack.
>>734225325>>734225589How hard did From games fuck you in the ass to make you such faggots?
