The problem with roguelites isn't the genre itself, unless you hate fun. It's the fact that it's so oversaturated that there's like 500 of them and all of them play the exact same way. So even those who like the genre end up just picking one game and sticking with it for hundreds of hours. I honestly have no idea how it can possibly be profitable to make a new roguelite when the people who would buy it are already busy with all the ones that already exist.
The problem is that building a game so it's impossible to clear until I die enough times to unlock permanent power is inherently shit design.
>>734392830It's only "impossible to clear" if you suck but thanks for outing yourself as a casual right off the bat at least.
>buy game with money>any time you play, game has a random chance to not be funisn't this illegal gambling?
>>734394882I have fun losing and it doesn't cost me more money to either win or lose.
>>734391713The fucking genre feels like shit. It's just gambling, but no one wants to admit that.
>>734394961And in a well designed roguelike it is still very possible to overcome bad RNG and win, which is fun in its own way. Sad we've reached the point where some people complain about games actually challenging them
>>734395001I don't think you know what gambling is. You're like those people who call a game with a lot of text "a visual novel."
>>734395060You don't even understand descriptive language.Do us all a favor and stop posting anywhere, ever.I mean anywhere.
>>734395173Nah I think I'll keep posting wherever the fuck I want. Fuck you. And since you're already mad, fuck you for saying "no one wants to admit that" like everyone secretly agrees with your opinion and is just hiding it. You're such a pussy you can't handle the idea that your opinion might be an uncommon one, you have to create a world in your mind where everyone agrees with you no matter what.
>>734395060>. You're like those people who call a game with a lot of text "a visual novel."a game with a lot of text where gameplay consists of going through that text to read a story is in fact a visual novel regardless if it has a few mario party minigames or overworld navigation. roguelikes are just gambling but instead of winning money you win fun
I am so tired of pick3 slop it's unreal
>losing enjoyers when the winning enthusiasts show up
Meh, as long as the gameplay is fun, there's plenty of variety, and I'm unlocking stuff at a solid rate, I don't really have a problem with the genre.
>>734395412By your logic all games are gambling because no matter what game you're playing you're risking your time and not knowing if you're going to get fun out of it. The analogy does not hold up under scrutiny. And that's before getting into the fact that you specifically called it illegal gambling, as if it should be against the law for you to die in a video game.
>>734391713nah, the problem is that they're padded worse than movie slop. it feels like this entire industry is trying to figure out ways to make you waste your time rather than innovate gameplay
>>734395484let's be real if you had to play the games against other humans and not dumbass swarms of easily-killed npcs you wouldn't want to play it>>734394961time is money
>>734395547>By your logic all games are gambling because no matter what game you're playing you're risking your time and not knowing if you're going to get fun out of it.that's not true, i don't play shitty lazy rngslop games and i am good at video games therefore i always know if i am going to have fun or not without even booting the game up
>>734395303I'm not even the person you think you're responding to:Way to show how much of an opinionated "git gud" faggot with no life you are, though.Trying to flame people isn't going to make your dick any bigger you fucking pussy.
>>734395574>time is moneyYou're spending time arguing with anonymous people on 4chan, your time isn't that valuable.
>>734391713The two roguelikes I play religiously are red rogue (old flash game) and nuclear throne and they don't play anything alike. But I don't have any desire to play gungeon after playing nuclear throne because it's the same thing but not as fun.
>>734395574I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying preferring PVE over PVP is a bad thing now?
>>734395550I agree with the notion that it feels like the industry is padding games to hell to make you waste your time, but I still prefer roguelites in that regard because at least you're engaging in actual gameplay and not waiting for a 20 minute long cutscene to end because the characters won't stop talking in circles.
>>734394773Disingenuous faggot.
>>734395060All those games are built on getting lucky enough that you can get a decent build with the shit you have no control over getting or avoiding. They're a perversion of arcade games. They're popular because you can blame the game for your loss. While in that old 80s/90s shit, when you died, you had to blame yourself. Unless it was one of those scummy games, but you get my point.
>>734394773In many of them it actually is impossible because past a certain point things are going to one shot you and without any experience of the game you aren't going to be able to reactively avoid everything.Regardless, the point is having a game not designed to be cleared until you waste a bunch of time dying is dog shit design.
>>734391713The real problem is every enemy has tracking shots that curve mid air so i have to run around like a hyper spastic to not get hit.
>>734395672"Git gud" is really all the bitching about this genre boils down to in the end though. The whole reason they even started making roguelites is because their predecessor, roguelikes were even harder. If you died in a roguelike you had to start the entire game from scratch, no powerups, no story progression, just right back to the beginning. So they came up with roguelites so that even people who suck at games can eventually finish the game if they die enough times. And still these people bitch, because they're pampered and don't want to have to work for success. They want everything handed to them on a silver platter. I fucking hate these people.
>>734395717>I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying preferring PVE over PVP is a bad thing now?extraction shooters and battle royales are super fucking gay too, playing a single player roguelike just makes you a pussy.gambling on equipment, and thus gambling whether or not your "run" will be fun or not, is a totally shitty game mechanic.the devs basically just gave up and instead of putting weapons in intelligent places and balancing the map a la a quake or unreal, each player just get get randomly vomited on by a unicorn and the player who chanced his way into the sparkliest vomit will likely win.it's fucking shit. all these games and game devs who make them should burn.
>>734395853>All those games are built on getting lucky enough that you can get a decent build with the shit you have no control over getting or avoiding.Not really, just badly balanced. If you look at slay the spire, people can have consistent wins on asc 20 despite not getting hyper broken builds every time.
>>734396025>If you died in a roguelike you had to start the entire game from scratch, no powerups, no story progression, just right back to the beginning.i'm pretty sure this game mechanic only exists because of abused children whose parents didn't love themgran turismo on the ps1 for example, is a roguelike if you don't have a memory card
>>734391713this genre is being exploited because it's so easy to make a roguelite system without having to develop any real content. thats the real problem
What are some with zero vertical permanent progression? Stuff like Rogue Legacy and Hades where you have to grind a bunch of deaths before the game becomes its intended difficulty level is retarded and completely defeats the purpose of the roguelike formula.All I really know of is Nuclear Throne
>>734396174Any true roguelike.
>>734396030The point is to get random combinations, try something different, and/or make do with what you get.It's fun, man. What did these games do to you?
>>734396030>playing a single player roguelike just makes you a pussy.what did xe/xem mean by this fucking shit
>>734396220>The point is to get random combinations, try something different, and/or make do with what you get.that would be great if any of the equipment combos are any good but you always get something like "the niggermelter 90000: one shot depletes all your mana and nukes the entire map + a wooden stick (breakable)" and in the next 3 runs you get wooden stick (breakable) + block of cheese (poisonous, to you specifically)>It's fun, man. What did these games do to you?they were bad and not funeven i had to put mods on noita to curtail the shitrolling so i could actually have some fun with the rng and not see the same tiny handful of spells in one run
>>734396438see>>734396078
>>734396174You might like this onehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)
The arguments in this thread started off pretty poorly but I have to admit some of you have actually made some pretty good points that make me understand there are valid reasons for why people might not be into roguelites besides "it's too hard." Even though I personally like the continuous progression and the way it's designed around short runs so you can plug an hour into a roguelite between playing other games, or when you're not in the mood for something else, I can see why that might not appeal to everyone. And I will admit, there are a lot of incompetent people making roguelites these days so you gotta dig to find the really good ones. Perhaps you have to... dig through the world of games that are on Steam. That way they don't pull a heist and steal your money. Otherwise you'd have to go on a quest to build it back.
more like rogueunlikes
>>734395484i should get to finishing this game. i beat the 2nd boss and i'm wondering when it starts to open up and get more gameplay variety
>>734391713most normies play a roguelite for like 20 hours max before going to a new one
>>734396174Cogmind is a good one. thats a TRUE roguelike.
>>734396201Well yeah but we're talking about roguelikes dumbassI'm asking for games that aren't turn based grid dungeon crawlers but have the same core design flow as them
>>734396174Noita
>>734397660>Well yeah but we're talking about roguelikes dumbassRoguelites I mean, fuckI know plenty of good traditional roguelikes, I want real time games of other genres that have the same appeal where you can feel yourself slowly gaining mastery of the game and getting to push further and further purely from your own skill and not because the game is drip feeding you better stats as you die
You have to be careful with calling games casinos, because team based games either mobas or shooters have such an amount of more rng that all the well designed roguelikes.I play on ascension 15 in slay the spire and win 85% of all my runs, and in the runs I die I can usually see were i fucked up and its a skill issue. Same with gungeon and dead cells never lose games there meanwhile online games force 50% winrates and thats coming from a master jungler, and a high el siege and valorant fag like myself
>>734398234roguelites by definition are built around vertical progression. what you're looking for is roguemediums.
>>734396174ftl: faster than light is basically the gold standard in how roguemediums should handle unlocks.
>>734396174balatro if you hit the unlock everything button. i really wish more games had that feature.
>>734391713I just tried to google what the roguelite with the purple owl is since I feel like I've seen that character before, couldn't find it, instead found a DIFFERENT roguelite called "Atomic Owl" which apparently released over a year ago and yet has a grand total of 21 reviews on Steam and that's it. So I'm actually not convinced roguelites are particularly profitable unless you're one of the mega successful ones like Hades, Slay the Spire, Necrodancer, Cult of the Lamb, etc.
>>734392830You can beat roguelites with minimal upgrades. You just have to git Gud.
I played quite a few and the only ones that are good are Slay the Spire, Monster Train 2, and Chrono Ark.I'll get StS2 when its out of early access.
i have quite literally never seen a single gameplay clip of cult of the lamb whenever its mentioned. i didnt know it was a roguelite until just now
>>734396174>>734400989Genuine question, if that's vertical progression, what does horizontal progression in a roguelite refer to?
No, the problem is the genre. It's a low amount of actual content piecemealed out through "randomisation" as you slowly advance your metaprogression to get the OP items. They have the same level of gameplay as a fucking cookie clicker, none. You just click on the shiniest bauble, win the run, and go again! Watch the numbers go up, how exciting!
>>734391713The genre is misnamed hardcore.It has nothing to do with Rogue and instead is mostly continuing the lineage of Cookie Clicker stat grind with gambling sprinkled on top.
>>734391713I played the game on the left and know of the game in the middle and they're completely different, entirely different genres. "Roguelite" tells you absolutely fucking nothing about a game except the progression system and maybe the length of the outermost gameplay loop
>>734396135>problem (contains no problems)
>>734402330To be fair it also does have a shitload of base building so even if you'd seen gameplay clips there's a high chance it would have been that part of the game and not the roguelite part.
>>734392830I can accept item/stage/character unlocks as a combination of progression incentive and softening the learning curve. I don't like it but I can roll with it. But just straight out upgrading your stats and giving yourself a stronger character to start with as you keep playing completely ruins it for me. Why fucking bother learning anything when I can just grind upgrades until a win is handed to me? Why get excited about finding a +9 sword of facefucking early on when I know I don't have the health/damage/whatever upgrades to actually have a chance of clearing yet? It utterly ruins the "any run could be THE run" feeling if you know your current run has an objectively worse chance of clearing than your later runs as soon as you start.
>>734396174Is getting more options "progression"?In games like StS or Astrea, unlocking more options dilutes the draw pool, making focused builds harder to do.So it does the opposite of stat upgrades.
>>734402385Thanks for the brief Hiroo
>>734402375>he thinks cookie clicker doesn't have gameplay
>>734396030You didn't answer the question
Back when Rogue Legacy and Binding of Isaac were big and I was trying Barogue I was thinking this genre will be so rad once they fully develop all the depth of a roguelike into a game with full blown action combat.The depth never came.Instead it devolved into extremely shallow action games with minor RNG in loot drops and map rotation.Then Slay the Spire happened and made every "rogue"lite have the pick a lane map for minor differences.Then Vampire Survivors happenedThe actual deathblow to the genre.Made by a guy creating the project for his FUCKING GAMBLING JOB btw.Now it's all doing the same 5 minutes of "content" for 100hours to farm your passive stats up while your retinas and ears get blasted by bright flashing loud gambling spinner Select-A-Column for temporary +0.25% to Frating Gas.Somehow Ball x Slop managed to make it even more shallow by not having any randomisation in the maps. You just rerun the exact same shit but speed modifier, slightly different order of ball pickings and the game even gives you autoplay down the line, dropping all pretence of being anything but another turd in the long Cookie Clicker lineage.I truly think less of a human being engaging and fawning over this absolute state of a genre. The type of people to go Uhhmm fuck AAA I ONLY play wholesome smol indie games" and it is THIS slop they watched their eceleb eDaddy play for days to fill the schedule.At this point it is not about if this is a roguelike or not, it's about you being a human or a brainfried gambling addict.
>>734396135I wish roguelites were more popular earlier, and saved titles with good but short gameplay loops.Because thee alternative is dragging out the linear progression with bloated story, reruns, recolors and grind.Only total underage idiots like you think that once you take them away, they will suddenly we will get epic "one and done" games
>>734402593Well that's why in a good roguelite it should still be entirely possible to clear the game without any upgrades. And, depending on how the game works, you can always just, not buy any of the upgrades, use the default character, etc. It's like how some people play Mega Man games and never switch off the default weapon. You're completely welcome to challenge yourself that way, just because the option for an easier game is there doesn't mean you have to use it. But some people have a real chip on their shoulder about other people potentially having an easier time with a single player game, for some reason.
>>734402761We already have epic games. They make fortnite
>>734391713>oversaturatedWhat a nothing problem that is. As a customer you just pick out one and play it. It’s only a problem when you are a dev releasing another one into the market hoping it’ll be the next Isaac.
>>734402809I wanted to point out that Epic Games actually made epic games.But then I remembered how long ago it was
>>734402350i would consider that to be things like new ships in ftl, new characters in nuclear throne, new decks in balatro, that kind of thing. typically options that you select from when starting a run, whereas with vertical progression, you're not choosing a different type of run to do, you're just starting the next run stronger. with horizontal progression you can usually call a run with a certain unlock a "[blank] run" (like a "mantis b run", "plant run", or "painted deck run" to harp on my previous examples.) but you can't really do that with vertical progression. there's also an uncomfortable middleground with things like slay the spire's card unlocks that are neither horizontal progression's run modifiers or vertical progression's straight upgrades. i guess you could call those "diagonal progression"?
>>734403051I played Jazz Jackrabbit a couple years ago and was surprised at how good it still was. It feels like classic Sonic but actually controls smoother. The music is amazing for its time too.
>>734394882Then by that proxy, all fighting games are.>Matchmaking is shit>Look for a match>Sweatytaint99 with 9000 games won and 30000 played versus me with 200 straight losses>Better off gooning with how little I'm allowed to do.I'll take a roguelite any day for principle of being single player content primarily.
>>734402876It's a problem when you remember that not everyone just pirates every game they ever play and some people actually have to buy games to find out if they're good or not, so when the market is oversaturated it's hard to figure out which one isn't a waste of money.
>>734403536I'm starting to think that all roguelite enjoyers are simply working men that need short but good games.And all their haters are neets on benefits and children, since they have a lot of time.
>>734405431I disagree, I really only got into these style of randomizer games after I retired. I like them for being gameplay first games, but I mostly just play the more active ones (Vampire Survivors is terrible imo) RoboQuest, Hades, Deadzone. The card ones are okay, though I've really only messed with a couple (StS, CZN). I think the popularity of them came largely from the popular games at the time of their explosion being either MTX farms like Fortnite & Nu-CoD or failed tv writer games like Nu-GoW.
