MMOs used to be worlds you lived in. Now they're just singleplayer games with strangers silently standing nearby. What happened?
>>735049028Trans people make up most of the communities in any MMO.
The funniest MMO design decision was making almost every item bind-on-pickup.Congrats, you removed the entire economy.
>>735049028So just like real life?
>>735049028this didn't happen to mmos, it happened to games as a whole, mmos were the canary in the coal mine but the truth is all gaming suffers for the lack of curiosity and adventure and sense of wonder in a lot of the audience for games nowadays"people" will see a game that doesnt handhold them and call it wikislop for not instantly telling them everything, and even if it has something like a manual they wont fucking read it anyway
>>735049028social media websites took over mmos as a social medium
>>735049125OSRS does this to such an infuriating degree>add ironman mode where you cant trade, everyone loves it, everyone happy>make everything untradeable anywaywhat's the fucking point, if i wanted everything untradeable id play the game mode where that's the idea
>>735049028MMOs in the 90s and early 00s used to be hangouts for well-adjusted nerds to kill time and slowly grind levels.MMOs after 2005 became cesspits filled with the worst of the normies and losers who play a multiplayer game to be alone.
>>735049028They removed everything about MMOs that made them MMOs. All the friction I mean, or you could call then inconveniences. WoW at its peak popularity streamlining everything to try and appeal to an infinitely widening market to pull in more and more revenue unironically ruined the genre. Most MMOs coming later would be modelled after it, it's only logical as it made an insane amount of money
An MMO is like a Discord server where you share a daydream.
TBC anniversary being megaservers full of people who boosted makes me shake with rage whenever I think about it
>>735049028>Personal flying mechanics>Fast travel>Phasing/sharding/layering>Self-sustaining crafting/profession systems that don't encourage interaction with other players>No limit to how many crafting/gathering professions you can take>Crafting/gathering professions that are made pointless because none of the good stuff is crafted>Good Boy Tokens from dungeons/raids>Quest markers>Automated, cross-realm LFG/LFR that just teleports you into the instance like a Game from ReBoot instead of having to go there>Transmog>Dailies/weeklies>Postage stamp dungeons>Gameplay based around complex attack spams and AoE rather than CC/resource management>In general, enemies that you slay by the truckload instead of being legitimate individual threats>Classes that all do the same thing/"classless" systems>Complete gutting of anything resembling an RPG system>Hand-holding quests that don't encourage explorationI could go on. The short answer is simply that modern MMO developers have done everything in their power to cut the MMO experience out, and the "modern MMO audience" fucking loves it because they're a periphery demographic who don't actually like MMOs for the MMO part. They don't typically like the RPG part either.
niggas used to be up at 3am here
play shitty dead old mmos
>>735049191On the other hand you have people complain that a game is "broken" when it's too easy and now devs overtune balanceLet me find a way to break the fucking game, it's fun. I don't hold it against a game if it's not TOO easy to find.
They need to return some level of danger and challenge to open world content and maybe even an exp loss on death.I can't believe the amount of effort that is wasted designing these huge and often amazing looking environments, only for none of it to matter at all - just hundreds of hours of content that is absolutely meaningless because the difficulty is non existant.Maybe I'm old and out of touch and most people enjoy faceroll content, or they think it doesn't matter because its not end-game content in an instance or whatever.
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>735051276Strictly not an MMO, but niggas are up at 3am here RIGHT NOW.
>>735051276I miss this aesthetic
>>735049191Behavior and enjoyment are game design problems.Motivation (fun) was solved in 1985. Extrinsic motivation (getting things) is surpassed by skill expression, freedom of choice, and social identity. See Self Determination Theory.
>>735051779>>735051386schizo thread
>>735051216>Personal flying mechanicsI agree that this is bad, but time-gated overworld content should also go away if we're getting rid of flying>Fast travelIt's fine to an extent. Like 1/15th of the map should be accessible this way and no more.>Phasing/sharding/layeringDo you mean instances? I would love to see a game get rid of them and still herd people to group content.>Self-sustaining crafting/profession systems that don't encourage interaction with other playersI've always felt that crafting HAS roles and that advanced crafts should be group projects done in a party of different roles>No limit to how many crafting/gathering professions you can takeI don't mind this if there's either a fatigue mechanic where your other crafting classes after your first get less exp or if it's a RS grind to get classes to a high level so it encourages people to focus just one>Good Boy Tokens from dungeons/raidsIn FFXIV I think these are comms that you're talking about? Don't mind these.>Quest markersThe concept of MMO questing in general need to be reworked from the ground up>Automated, cross-realm LFG/LFR that just teleports you into the instance like a Game from ReBoot instead of having to go thereI guess idk what sharding/phasing whatever is because that's what I thought you were talking about>TransmogEhhhh kind of agree>Dailies/weeklies>Postage stamp dungeonsYep, cancer
>>735051216>>735051970>In general, enemies that you slay by the truckload instead of being legitimate individual threatsIt should be the very tip of endgame. Like the original Diablo you had hordes of enemies when you got to Caves 4 into Hell, but the beginning of the game was more methodical. And still those hordes were a fucking threat not "trash mobs". Then people liked that rush of killing all that shit I guess and like half of Diablo 2 ended up being like that and idk if that's the inspiration for most MMOs having so much dumb fodder, but yes there should be higher HP and less frequent "normal" enemies for the MOST part>Classes that all do the same thing/"classless" systemsI don't think anyone would disagree with you>Complete gutting of anything resembling an RPG systemThis and a complete lack of giving a shit about an immersive world are things that kept me away from MMO""""RPGs"""" for the longest time. And 99% still don't care. God if we could just get competent CRPG devs to make an MMO. >Hand-holding quests that don't encourage explorationSee above on questing
>>735051545I really should play dofusIs it true a single sacrier/cra can just breeze through the main quest stuff, no needing multiple accounts like wakfu?
>>735051817Imagine posting this on an anonymous image board to good posts. Those are by different people, BTW.
>>735052124Short answer; no.Long answer; Dofus is a mix of soloable content and multiplayer content. With some classes you can get more mileage and potentially solo more content. But you will hit a wall where you will need help eventually. It's an MMORPG after all.Some walls are also really, fucking, big.
nutriments nigger thread
Humanity regressed as a whole
>>735051216I'm sorry but I think dungeon finders that teleport you, or at the very least let you summon with at least 2 people, is a good thing. People are so retarded and are complete time wasters, the amount of times I have had to sit there waiting for someone legally disabled to find their way or they dont have any fp close by but still join the party it adds nothing to the experience but frustration. Dad gamers cant find their way to BFD even if you offer to show them the way, I am a patient person but some people literally cant be helped and then the tank or healer leaves and then everyone whos at the instance has to wait ages for a replacement. DF saves so much time and removes so much headache
>>735051216I think New World did fast travel well. There were some zones you couldn't fast travel to, and if it were a full loot MMO, you would have to be able to get places.What do you think, /v/?Also, will full loot ever be the standard? Surely, the intense, on the edge of your seat gameplay is worth it.
>>735054748full-loot is for retards and makes no sense in an MMO""""""RPG"""""">do 100 hour quest and spend millions to get The One Ring™ that's great for your build and is a significant quest/achievement in itself>die>lose itExplain how that's not retarded?
>>735055764I mean the obvious notions are not developing anything worth more than X dollars of per hour time, and not playing with more than you can afford to lose.
>ritual posters
I play Ragnarok Online with fellow /v/irgins.
>>735054748>Also, will full loot ever be the standard? Surely, the intense, on the edge of your seat gameplay is worth it.Any MMO that is full loot with no exceptions has to be fully designed around it and it will most likely be the most important aspect of the design. Saying "what if X MMO were full loot" will almost never immediately translate for reasons such as what's mentioned in >>735055764. Every single item in the game would need to be designed around the fact that you could lose it at any point, and the world itself needs to be designed around the fact that any player may be at any gear level at any point during their playtime, possibly within the same play session.I don't think full loot will ever be the standard since it's a design decision that dictates way too much about what the game can be, but I do think a full loot game can be successful if it's done well. I don't know if we've seen this yet in MMOs, maybe some of the super early ones that I've never played or looked into that closely into such as UO.
>>735049028Why is this thread made daily?
normalfags found mmos and imposed all of their normalfag social posturing into the virtual world
>>735049028One of my favorite things to do in WoW was to just walk around and help random people. I didn't even friends list them or anything, just walk by, see someone struggling with a boss, throw a heal and some buffs their way, get thanked and walk away. Shit like that doesn't exist in modern mmos anymore.
>735057474schizo cope
>>735049028Blizzard found the best way to optimally trigger player dopamine releases by introducing Tiered rarity gear and completionist Achievements and then locked them behind tasks that you would need to complete 3-4 times a week to unlock the better versions of and everyone else saw the metric fuckton of money they were making as a result at the time.As a result, MMO's became less about world and player interactions and about transactional interactions. I miss MMOs like UO, OG EQ and The Realm where the developer would actively do events in person every so often
>735057545blizzdrone opinion discarded
>>735057773>BlizzdroneAre you retarded anon? Read the second paragraph and you MIGHT be able to understand that was posed as a negative, assuming you have BASIC reading comprehension.
>>735051386>>735051352>>735051216>>735049519It's funny because for me, recently playing L2 on a 1x classic pserver has basically solved most of those problems or given me those lost experiences. For example, as a melee char without VR sometimes even individual monsters are a scary thing especially when going to new areas. But also conversely if people are inclined they can still break the game with casters or even more powerful destroyers. BUT conversely to that to be to farm stuff like catacombs or necropolises and definitely to do any raid boss you need parties and the classes are unique enough that great diversity is needed, tanks, healers, buffers, dps. At 1x everything is slow and takes lots of grinding but also lots of discovery and exploration. Other players are essential whether you're simply selling mats to their shop, you're partying with them, or getting into an academy or clan and people do talk. There's even PKers and PK hunter dynamic still. The only downside is probably most people being some kind of South American, Russian, or Asian islander but for the most part they still speak English and the ones I played with have been real friendly.It's still basically the true classic mmo experience in 2026 and I'm glad it's still around. And it's also completely free with no cash shop or dual clienting either so it's even betterNow I realize this sounds like a shill but I am genuinely having a good time with a mid40s char and bunch of near 20s alts and its only been about a month or 2. I just wanted to share because I see all the pains people in these threads list and as I read it I think to myself, huh, that's exactly what I see now if it's good/missed, or hmm not experiencing that if it's bad in 2026 right now.
>>735049028User Interface hell happenedwhen mmos changed into play by menu games that redirect player attention away from the game world itself
>735057916Kys Blizztard>735058627Shit tier opinion
>>735055764when its the norm in the game its not bad. people shrug off most losses and begin holding a sense of pride in what they've achieved and how long they can continue maintaining that achievement. similar to the roguelike experience. only a retard ragequits a roguelike because the death penalty is "unfair".
>>735058893>Hes doubling downRight, moving along and ignoring "I was merely pretending"
>>735058973Not that Anon but your argument doesn't hold up. In a roguelike if I reach the end I won, and lose my equipment. If I play an mmo the only way for me to guarantee I keep my equipment is to either stay in safe areas or just not play. If I'm maxed out there's literally no point to playing anymore since there's all risk and no reward to keep going. There's no wincon in an mmo that can take the sting out of losing all of your progress.
We're going home soon!
>>735059873In an MMO, equipment can give you anything: size, speed, and power rivaling comics; gathering speed and amount; playstyles. I'm not convinced full loot is the most fun when you could have the most powerful sets have 1 durability and require vast amounts and types of resources. But it would be extremely rewarding to defeat one of the best or luckiest players and get a god set.
>>735057773hes right however
>>735061010>and require vast amounts and types of resourcesTo craft and/or repair*.
>>735051216>implying classless systems are anti-MMOYou are a massive massive faggot who does not know what you're talking about.
>>735051386It's meaningless regardless of how hard it is or isn't, is what you don't understand.
>>735051216Stop defining MMO as literally meaning vanilla World of Warcraft you stupid fucking nigger.
>>735057184Is there an active server going at the moment? I could do with another month or two dabble in RO
>>735051386>>735062321Correct that it's meaningless irrespective of difficulty; it's meaningless because the game never gives players any reason to return to the area after being made to go there once (if even that), and you only have to spend no more than a few hours in each area.Spending more time in each area could work as well if it's an MMO of the slow leveling variety where the leveling experience is the game, as was more common in the pre-WoW days.
>>735059935I hope you signed up for the closed beta and get it
>>735062573It's meaningless because XP grinds and bad questing are extremely shit content. MMOs of that type are literally ONLY good when you are grouping up and doing very difficult curated content or PvP.
>>735049028You can't say shit without losing your account
Chatgpt response thread
>>735062321I don't think so. Mobs dropping equipment in WoW while leveling is fun. You could have dozens of types of mobs across the world that have to be farmed for equipment or resources (and that require various skill checks).
i ended up going back to WoW retail.there's a lot of content accessible F2P now.
>>735051216These all sounds like good things to me.I do not play MMO's because I dislike MMO's.It probably says something about modern MMO's that all of the things they do sound like good ideas to someone who hates MMO's.
>>735063141Why the fuck would I want that?
>>735062762You as well, thanks!
I wish I wasn't such a social retard. I want to make friends in an MMO and start a guild where we all do fun things together but I'm too much of a sperg and just end up playing these games alone.
>>735059873reaching the endings of a main quest in a roguelike is no different than completion of the main quest line in an mmo though. beyond a solvable main quest they're designed to be endless, its one of the key design features of a roguelike.
>>735064553iktfbro, inevitable lonely kiritoing
>>735064364Because you want to craft, make money, or be powerful.
>>735049028>no FUN allowed, death of chat discussions because of shitholes like Discord, appeal to everyone so you need to make them easy as fuck and to do X or Z in the game alone without any help,the death of communities, wonder, adventure and discovery, season passes and weekly/monthly awards unlocked by daily grindingI remember playing an mmo 19 years ago and i had a lot of fun discovering stuff while killing monsters who were 10 levels above me to level up with some strangers for hours, can you do that now? Overall i miss the good old days of the internet and mmo's
>>735062489t. only played nu-WoW and its clonesthat list applies to every modern MMO. even XIV went to shit when they gave up on everything that made it MMO-like, STARTING WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF FLYING MOUNTS!!!!!flying mounts kills the world in every game. you never see anyone anywhere except at the quest NPC or idling in town
>>735064821Literally none of those motivate me. So again, why the fuck would I want that?
>>735064960XIV was literally always a bad game and I've played MMOs nearly from when they started.
>>735064969Then why are you playing an MMO?
>>735065103That depends on the MMO. If it's WoWshit, it's because the loop of attempt hard group content -> iterate on strategies -> beat hard group content -> get equipment to get stronger and sometimes change how you play -> do harder group content is fun. The most important part is what you do to get the loot, not the loot itself. If it's not WoWshit, it's because the freedom to do what I want in a world that isn't on rails and has a shitload of ways to engage with it is fun.
>>735065206>and has a shitload of ways to engage with itFor example?
>>735055764Permadeath full loot and all magic is evil and corrupting and the stronger the loot is the faster it makes you in to a world boss for other players to arrange to murder.
>>735049028>real-life spilled onto the internet and everyone has seceded into closed off communities forming cliques>lots of normgroids only play with IRL friend groups>LFG and other automated party finding services ended up killing whatever was left that resembled a community>the implementation of draconian (((CoCs))) and ToS and "toxic positivity" + money stolen via trigger-happy moderation and automated bans ended up turning online interactions with strangers into a minefield. it's so bad some people even make a sport out of making others trip an automated ban filterit's as simple as that
>>735065442I have tried to get people banned by baiting them into breaking rules then reporting them longer than /v/ has existed.
play Anarchy Online, the greatest gaming catastrophy is that cookie cutter mmo design won instead of this
>>735049191>on one hand, wiki autism has made it impossible to just enjoy a game>on the other hand, knowledge checks kill your enjoyment because everyone expects you to already know everything or you'll get shit on on pve and/or stomped on pvpit's 2 sides of the same ugly coin
>>735051545WAKFU is still better lol>>735049028because stuff like discord killed mmo's, and if there's any MMO's still alive with social aspects are dead due of the developers or bad actors ruining italso unrelated but i'm getting back in PSO2NGS, is it too late?
>>735065490yes but now it's as simple and easy as getting people to type shit like neck yourself or gimp or something. no one checks context and the actual perpetrator gets away scot-free because the automated filter doesn't trigger
>>735051545I kind wish they would take a crack at a console port there's some profit to be had there and growth.
>>735065707>PSO2NGShugely too late
>>735064553How does this spergness of yours play out actually? Are you just being silent all the time or do you say the most inappropiate stuff at the wrong time that will make everyone uncomfortable or what is it?
>>735049028Socialization became inherently risky due to how insane people on the internet are now.
>>735065707also source on the image saucenao google ascii2d iqdb and yandex are giving me nothing>inb4 it's ai
>>735049028Honestly it’s the Pay2Win faggotry that destroyed MMO’s. Nobody wants to GRIND anymore
>>735065985Nigga I didn't want to grind almost 30 years ago. Why would I want to now.
>>735049028>say word>money stolenSimple as.
>>735065950I'm the silent overthinking type. The inappropriate ones that can't read the room do a lot better than me in MMOs socially from what I can tell. I envy that type of social retardation I wish I wasn't so painfully self aware.
>>735066056And that’s fine and all but you shouldn’t be on the same level as someone who puts in 40 hours a week just cause you have mommy’s credit card you bitch ass nigga
>>735064960>XIV went to shit>wentIt was always shit, considering it's a story-based MMO.
>>735049028>What happened?If you talk you get banned.If you interact with other players you get banned.The other players don't even speak your language and they hate you on a racial level. No they won't get banned for this by the way.Even if miraculously you get into a conversation with someone who does speak English (god's language), one small slip-up like calling them a 'he' instead of a 'she' (they are a 40 year old man by the way) will get you banned.I wonder why people aren't socializing in games now.
I played TibiaRunescapePristontaleMaple StoryWorld of WarcraftRagnarok OnlineStar Wars the Old Republic FF11+14Tree of Savior+random gook shit like pso/lineage/aionAnd nothing has been good for a long time. It's all so tiresome bros
>>735066196>implying I want P2W
>>735066335Hop on graalonlineclassic
>>735065206The genre of game that's just "co-op modern MMO endgame raid progression" like Rabbit & Steel and Fellowship needs to be expanded. Hopefully an entry in that genre hits it big so more devs can make those instead of MMOs and the future of MMOs will have a better shot of being something different
>>735066389Just looked at some screenshots, did they just steal the textures from a link to the past?
>>735066442it started as zelda online.
>>735065976idk snatched it from twitter, 'luv me ragdoll>>735065927as in its dead? shit, well i kinda dont wanna slave to FF14 or go back to wakfu/dofus...
>>735049028adhd due to phones and instant gratification
new mmos when?
>>735066617Dead genre. GAASslop has destroyed so many modern studios now, no one is going to invest in a fucking MMO which is a GAAS that requires way more content for much less profit.
>>735066653Is gaas that gacha phone slop?
Something weird has happened, almost all 4chan activity has been cut in half within the span of 6 months.
>>735066732Any "games as a service" seasonal multiplayer slop. So yeah gacha, but also Fortnite or Overwatch or what the fuck ever.
>>735066808most likely cause imo is the new more aggressive anti-bot measures making it too much of a hassle for people keep posting
>>735049028Synchronous mmo multiplayer is too expensive and harder to program. Using Completely asynchronous techniques to simulate multiplayer is proven to work (lugging games )
>>735049125I think one reason for this is that major content tends to be raids and they don't want you to skip them as they happen to be a lot of times the only content available. In F2P MMOs you also have the issue with rampant bots, gold sellers and their likes ruining any sort of economy so it's just easier for the Devs just to bind everything.
>>735066397Unironically yes. They need to not play like shit, is what they need to do. They keep fucking up on the feel of the game. That's one thing Blizzard got right.
>>735066808That's not weird, the site went down and then captchas became a retard filter.
>>7350661982.0 was better when the game still had RPG elements and a world to explore. everything past that is single player VN + barbie dress up doll simulator + raid logging>>735066808what does that have to do with MMOs or video games, newfag-chama?nothing "weird" has happened btw. normalniggers are leaving the site in mass numbers. the only noticeable boards that haven't seen a significant drop are /pol/ and all of the vidya boards
>>735067186NTA but there's a significant increase in post quality overall... oddly enough
>>735067279no there isn't
>>735067301huhguess i'm a retard then
>>735066808captcha and mods are being more trigger happy
Someone make a new MMO
>>735049125Fuck economies, they bring nothing but problems to online games, trading should be limited as much as possible to prevent RMT and bot farming. Don't allow players to trade gold or gear between each other, only minor worthless things without resell value should be traded, do just in case you didn't bring enough arrows you can get them from a player nearby instead of going back to the vendors.
>>735066950Having a variety of activities to afford whatever you want is where the genre needs to be.
>>735067454ogeyXenoblade 2 but as a MMObuy now fag
>>735067454its never going to happen its impossible its lost technology and even if they could it would cost hundreds of millions even though it didnt cost that much before to make better mmos than whats out now, plus you have to compete with mmos that have so much content that nobody even plays and will pay to skip it if given the chance so its literally impossible it cant be done
>>735067484Money answers everything, and everything is money.
>>735067564A few developers is enough to make a few mobs and a zone per day and have an MMO of content in a month or two. You could make forests choppable in a day.
>>735067603post nose
>>735067484Nah, fuck off retard, gold being a valuable resource is fun. Just get rid of instanced dungeons and open-world PvP always enabled and gold farming bots will be culled by a group of autists.
>>735067484why tho, Trade is life, mmos should have more mechanics to prevent scams and stimulate trading between players, I'd love to see a game where you can give a job/mission to another player with a set reward that he gets automatically when its completed, like kill someone or do some other activity, imagine the potential interactions
>>735067657i think its a total farce the argument people repeat about mmos being impossible to make now. a small team could make a worldwide hit with a fraction of a percent of the knowledge we have now about netcode and programming and what people want. if a game came out looking like ffxi but was enjoyable to play and a new experience millions of people would buy it, the idea that mmos need to look incredible and compete with content is retarded
>>735067673Variety: depth in economy is approximately the only thing to do.
You guys just wanted isekai.
>>735051216>just remove the G from MMORPG because normies don't like it, and they'll sub forever if you do
>>735067907When you have a player driven economy then everything has to be tuned around that economy. Low drop/spawn rates, lots of grind, all to prevent players from just buying the best items from the auction house immediately. If there is no trading then you don't have to do that, drops can be balanced on a per-individual basis making for a much more lenient and satisfying game.
>>735068008Least obvious WoWtard
>>735067484F2P MMOs got replaced with live service single player/co op games for a reason.
>>735068127They're potentially exactly the same.
>>735068127Did you ever actually play a mmo? Having itens that are actually really valuable and desirabled makes the world feel a lot more alive.you get a valuable drop and its like winning the lotto, some crazy bastard drops a valuable piece and it's the server wide news of the week, you'll never feel those things in family friend, safe theme park mmo
>>735049028Shitlibs happened, and they decided that nobody is allowed to interact in order to protect feelings.
>>735068286No because when you're designing a drop in a player economy you must account for the fact that thousands of players are able to get the items and it's gonna end up on the auction house, if it's a good item then you don't want too many of them on the market, the result is drop rates in the 0.1% range. If you're designing for a per-individual drop then you can bump it up a lot higher without worrying about saturation.
EQ/Classic WoW fags always blame lack of challenge or social interaction. But MMOs were never challenging, just tedious and 99% of social interactions were LFG to find a group watching movies for a couple hours while they grind. MMOs are dying because EQ/WoW sucks dick, but China loves WoW so it made billions. The only "new" MMOs we've gotten are either WoW clones, EQ clones, or Runescape clones. While Runescape clones are better, the gameplay is 30 years old.We didn't get Skyrim: Actually Good Edition Online. We got Chink of Corea.
>>735068313I don't care about a lottery, I want a satisfying game with reasonable rewards that you don't have to grind for.
>>735068471At least one includes doing various things to get the drop or craft that you want. One might have you trade for it. They're not meaningfully different, except the trading economy can let you do whatever you want.
>>735066389I played graal around 2001 or so and it was a retarded blast. Last I checked in on it, it was turned into some soulless facebook game. It looks maybe slightly better now but the retard magic it once had is still gone. Regardless, may check it out just to fuck around
>>735051319>third wolder selling his shitty accounts for rupeesYa, you just posted why I don't
>>735068490>Skyrim: Actually Good Edition OnlineWhat does this even mean? What exactly does Skyrim do that would be a positive addition to MMOs?
>>735068127the best mmo that I ever played had a completely broken economy due to a widespread duplication bug. players ended up establishing a makeshift currency out of dark angel feathers which was one of the stackable items that couldn't be duplicated. dark angel feathers were a required catalyst to cast player killing spells so PKers needed them and other players had an interest in keeping them away from PKers so it evolved into the main currency in the game for quite a while. meridian59 btw
>>735062273Classless systems sound cool on paper because it sounds like you can make whatever crazy build you want, but the reality is that every ability and passive in a classless system has to be bland as fuck because its has to be balanced against every other ability and passive, and in an MMO, you're just going to wind up getting forced into one of three meta faggot builds instead of having anything remotely distinctive.
>>735068743thats like pso with the photon drops because meseta is useless lol
>>735068490I doubt something like a modern RO would work out. After a week you'd have guides how to skip 90% of the sandbox to progress as fast as you can while no one it their right mind will bother farming days for a level towards the end.
>>735068860This.Optimization kills every game and the faster players can reach this, the faster it dies.
>>735068490anyone who thinks Skyrim is a good example of anything shouldn't be listened to
>>735068860we need something like the cardinal system from sao that regularly changes the game around enough to make the guides inaccurate but also isn't quite as ass as procedural generation
>>735068695An actually good version of Skyrimjob is a sandbox that lets you do anything you want within its setting while giving you content threads that lead you toward various goals with unpredictable events that make it feel like a world that would keep going if you weren't around. Then you hook it up to a server so you can ERP.
Come home, white man.
>>735067907>I'd love to see a game where you can give a job/mission to another player with a set reward that he gets automatically when its completed, like kill someone or do some other activity, imagine the potential interactionsThat literally exists, it's called even online christ you people are so fucking uneducated
>>735049028I would be happy with something like this if done in the old school fashion instead of "open world cancer dogshit."
>>735049028Times changed, they came out in a time where most people didn't use social media and interacting with other people inside a game was a novel concept, and MMOs are mediocre at best games but it was enjoyable with friends just like other co-op stuff you play with others,so they lost to better games where you can also interact with your friends either via discord or in game Also no the cope that people don't like to talk with others is shit cause the most popular games played by younger generations are Fortnite and Roblox
>>735049028Weeks and weeks of getting no loot while some people have enough to gear a character 4 times over. Why tf am I gonna keep wasting my time when I can't even get a fucking ring or necklace?
>>735069137>excel sheet the game
>>735069192I don't like the setting.
>>735049125There are very clear reasons to have at least some items and rewards be BoP. The game needs to be more than just an economy and flipping ore on the auction house shouldn't be a substitute for going out and doing content with human beings. You can't complain about the game being single player and then praise mechanics which reward literally zero player botting gameplay
>>735066808Anti-bot measures and a service spammers were using to ban evade went offline>>735054748Full loot would be likely end up being niche because way too many people will either instantly turn their nose up at it or get ganked, die, go "wtf i lost all my shit???" and quit instantly and call the game gay and retardedThat then gets followed by EoS or getting morphed into an unholy monstrosity to cater to the people who hate it
>>735069325You are misunderstanding why MMOs were created; They were created to capture in essence a living world of Tabletop RPGs where people could come and go and populate the servers and get together to have that sort of a feel you could only get prior with D&D in a way that wasn't hindered by any physical requirements like rolling dice and shit and having to always be on time with the crew. Most MMORPG game designers back when in 00s and 90s 100% played AD&D in their life at least a few campaigns worth. Much like how CRPGs were all about bringing D&D to your home computer to showcase a campaign you were wanting to bring to life and accessed by people.
>>735069425Rust exists and people still play it in autistic fashion; you drop your shit when you die.
>>735069465>you drop your shit when you dieAny game that has this and can't be disabled is trash.
>>735069432My point still stands, you need to interact with people in an MMO either with your party or strangers and there are better ways to do that nowadays and times simply moved on without them
>>735069519A lot of people enjoy it. But it also means; you can gank in survival-craft and raid your enemy base and rob them as well and be a nuisance to them on purpose. Its like a miniature microcosm of griefing PVP. The game's liked by a lot of people. (Basically Minecraft for a more mature audience; and the character you spawn in starts naked.)
>>735069405Being able to solo an MMO is fine. People should be able to play whatever they want.
>>735069465Rust also does full wipes so everything is naturally more transientI'm not sure if a MMORPG going "yeah all your shit goes every month" would hit off well but who knows these days
>>735069594>pvpI don't play games that have anything to do with other players. They're starting to stick this "drop your shit on death" in every game now and I hate it.
>>735069432That's no different than people larping in a Helldivers match or a Roblox custom map and those are better games than MMOs
>>735069618Your self centred, valueless liberalism has been the downfall of modern society
>>735069637True, it doesn't work in every game type. It used to be the default in Runescape Wilderness and in general Ultima Online. Its old as the fucking genre is.>>735069628It would if it were a persistent fact or a "PVP World/Hardcore Mode" only feature. People who want to be masochistic, will be.
>>735069618some solo content in an mmo is fine. being able to solo a whole mmo is an issue.
>>735069923How about enforcing better/more drop rates if you join a party? Allowing you access to higher quality gear would make sense as an incentive to play together.
>>735069554>>735069685We're all going to play games together, and an MMO will be the most popular.
>>735069628People enjoy CCRO and that resets every three months
>>735069060So Ultima Online?I find it hilarious that people always think they have some revolutionary idea for MMOs, when all the things they suggest have been attempted decades ago.
>>735070159Yeah; But people want the quality of life updates and modern graphics. Not outdated jank. Lets be real only old runescape is good enough to be still played in 2026 as is.
>>735070027that doesn't work because most players will just get their gear from the market and only the most tryhard players will actually hunt for drops. and they will farm drops in the most toxic metabuild requirement parties ever. if most of the content is at least completable solo then most normal people will typically not group up.
The last time I looked at MMOs, I saw a poster for a game in which you only have one life, which I took to mean that death results in permanent loss. I found that really interesting, but by that point I had lost interest in games.
>>735069702>>735069923All content being soloable allows everybody to play whatever role they want (gathering, crafting, trading, WPvE, etc.) to get items and see content at their own pace; allows content to be maximum challenges (tuned for 90%+ rotation efficiency or whatever); and allows niches such as PvP-only players to skip dungeons and raids and still get god equipment.
>>735049519It's really funny that newfags to the genre always out themselves when they call WoW "grindy."Like, oh wow. How many years did it take you to get that sword, anon? "It took like three heckin' weeks. It was painful."WoW specifically gained popularity BECAUSE it was streamlined and casual, and at the time that's what fans thought they wanted.
>>735070201A "modernised" UO would still filter 95% of players. Especially the modern raidbrained retards of modern MMOs, and storyfags without free will. All it takes is one thief looting a carebear's shit while he's out wageslaving is for him to drop the game.
>>735070159UO is a glorified cookie clicker, but yes it was the first step in the right direction.
>>735070159There are obviously huge innovations to be made to UO to make the world more dynamic and alive. NPCs/mobs could interact with the economy, fight each other, and control zones.
>>735070278How will they get the stuff they need to get from the dungeon if they are not forming a party to grind for them? The fact that its exclusively obtainable through loot drops in dungeons with party play should encourage people to group up and not forgetting item enchantment upgrades that are a must.
>>735049028I feel like discord probably has something to do with it aka people are just chatting on there instead of in-game and don't really look to socialize much outside of their discord clique. It's rather different from mid 00s vent days where you never actually got on there to do anything other than voice chat to coordinate in-game. And if you shit the shit taking with people it was like a group phone call and very very useful to help you just chill and have fun even while grinding/farming in game between raids since chatting with your bros definitely helped pass the time. Now with discord you have a chat filled with emotes and reacts making its own separate space outside the game and you aren't as closely-tied to it. Or at least that is my impression. Discord shits up everything by being a social media proxy for autists and trannies instead of just being a side tool to help make MMOs better. It wasn't founded to be that, but that is what it became..
>>735049028>MMOs used to be worlds you lived inThose were the days, literally.I remember quitting school, job and any form of social life to play. Nothing beats the addiction that I had... And to this day I still can't understand how I became so addicted to an MMORPG.I already smoke and drink and no substance managed to make me become addicted... meanwhile a 2007 mmorpg made me play it from 1pm to 4 am of the next day, non-stop
>>735070340there are several thousand players online you will find someone to help you do what you want.
>>735049028>What happened?e-sport shit and corporate greed.
>ERM GO HERE>NOW HES THE MARKER TO GO HERE>NOW GO BACK HERE AND GIVE THIS GUY HIS THING>+100 EXP FUCKING RIVETING GAMEPLAY
>>735062489If anything, the MMOs that came before Vanilla WoW had even fewer of the nuMMO garbage than Vanilla WoW did. Vanilla WoW was basically the limit at which you could casualize the genre before it started turning to shit.
>>735070446have you never played an mmo? most players just get the shit that they need from other players, either through direct trades or some market system like an auction house. only a small fraction of the player base even hunts for drops.
>>735070384WoW was good for 2004, but at least by WotLK, it had huge churn (and eventually lost subs for a decade somehow while the PC gaming demographic was about 1B). Approximately nobody wants to quest and mob grind for hundreds of hours.
>>735070384Vanilla at least still had some elements from previous MMOs, even if it was more casual. But the further it went, the less MMO it became. Dungeon finder, LFR, teleporting to dungeons, then not even needing to exit the main city, making leveling pointless etc etc. All for the sake of convenience and because they truly believed that's what people wanted it and it was good for the game, and it would appeal to more people. They slowly stripped the game from everything that made it an MMO, and turned into several fragmented minigames being barely held together by the base game
>>735070340solo pvp players getting god equipment is a game breaking problem
>>735070447I think you vastly overestimate how many people even interact with Discord.
>>735070563I remember thinking that arrows was just the developers' way of teasing players, since the safe way to go was never by following the arrows.I don't understand why it became a handhold today.
It's kinda sad not to see one mention of mabinogi despite it being one of the only real MMOs that actively Rewarded exploration Blizzard nostalgia WoW fags dominate every MMO discussion despite the fact that WoW is ass and has always been ass
>>735070458Non-sequitur.
>>735070563This isn't much different from any other game.
>>735070657At least near all of that is "people try to skip leveling". That's fine.
>>735049028>MMOs used to be worlds you lived in. They were never this. VRChat is literally this, though. >Now they're just singleplayer games with strangers silently standing nearby. MMOs were always THIS. The only difference is that (You) were new the very first time you played a MMO and overly exaggerated the experiences via LARPing. The moment you became NOT NEW there was no epic lord of the rings adventure, there was no king author sword, there was no legendary dragon. All you saw was a job simulator that requested for you to sign in daily and kill XYZ for peasant tier Gold. And open your wallet for the Billionare experience. And then later everyone trooned out including (You) who no longer play as a male character.Truthnuke of NUKES
>>735070584Exactly that's why you would want to encourage drop hunting through mechanics/boosting of gear drops.
>>735049028I like them for the worlds, but nothing else. Regular RPGs don't have the scale to match either.
>>735070739It's an issue in triple A slopWhich is why people have been gravitating to indieFromsoft proved that players aren't actually that retardedYet still we must live by what execs in marketing deem correct
>>735070687mabinogi is literally this>>735070563but now with auto walking to each marker
>>735070678Except people love PvP. The most popular and hours played games are, by far, PvP. Whole systems could be built on player renown (like leaderboards) and bounties.
>>735070802>MMOs were always THIS. The only difference is that (You) were new the very first time you played a MMO and overly exaggerated the experiences via LARPing. The moment you became NOT NEW there was no epic lord of the rings adventure, there was no king author sword, there was no legendary dragon. All you saw was a job simulator that requested for you to sign in daily and kill XYZ for peasant tier Gold. And open your wallet for the Billionare experience. And then later everyone trooned out including (You) who no longer play as a male character.Untrue I made plenty of friends in classic wow, in 2019 because the game forced you to be social. Something retail wow doesn't do, because it's a shit tier skinnerbox for e-sport nigger faggots, who couldn't hold a real job where you're not a consuming subhuman.
>>735070340>allows everybody to play whatever role they want In your quest to allow everybody to do whatever they want by themselves you have made sure that those choices don't matterChoosing to be X needs to mean that you are worse at or unable to do Y, otherwise it's not a real choice it's just cosmetic bullshit. The need to ensure that nobody is ever inconvenienced in any way and that everyone is equally capable of doing everything regardless of their decisions has made sure that there are no real decisions to be made and nothing carries any weight.
>>735070842pso2ngs already does this. nobody gives a fuck about drop hunting when you can solo everything already
>>735070563>>735070687I played mabinogi just so I could shit on it in conversations with a discord friend and ended up autopathing and one shotting everything for over 100 hours to clear the campaign. The whole time I was doing it could see the raped corpse of the game it was and it was pretty sad.The only genuinely good campaign was the Avalon one and everything else was written by schizos.
>>735070739>As if other genres make you 1-button hundreds or thousands of mobs to get to skillful gameplay.
>>735070980thats also why everyone is quitting that game. theres no adventure left in the game. everything is easily solved and done.
>>735070802Again, WoW was good in 2004, but standards quickly rose as people saw through the world. It's probably still good to new players for a little while, but dumbed down classes are nowhere near as fun as getting into PvP, and (if the trends are what they used to be) some 70% of players quit by level 10.
>>735070875>>735071251This applies to any mmo for the very first time, not just wow. And as soon as you are no longer new, when you think you understand design and road map and how every game does the same shit with the only differences being product quality, you end up just like everyone today hating every single one of these games and even the one you say is the best you dont play it even if it has a private server because the fact of the matter is you will be a loner with no one else to enjoy said experience with you unless you drag the corpse of some friend lmao
>>735070976>Choosing to be X needs to mean that you are worse at or unable to do Y, otherwise it's not a real choice it's just cosmetic bullshit.When is this ever true? I don't have to only specialize in guitar or piano, and players shouldn't have to pic grouped, instanced PvE to have fun WPvPing.Everybody should be able to play whatever niche they want all the time.
>>735071578This is the trouble with zoomers, you think you're entitled to everything all of the time. The man who learns 20 instruments will not be as capable with any of them as the man who masters one. If your choice carries no consequences then it isn't a real choice
>>735051970>Do you mean instances?Phasing is where other servers' players get put on your server temporarily (outside of cities), and you may never see them again.>>735071550I was fine playing vanilla WoW on a private server, but Classic phasing filtered me in the 20s.
>>735068471They don't open trading of items up because it would reveal all their end game content is faceroll and in mmos people fight the computer on easy mode but as a big group.
>>735071804Anon, you can be a master of multiple instruments. I don't know where you got this notion that everybody has to play everything or whatever (to get all the rewards), but by your own logic, they wouldn't be as good.
>>735069702You just gotta remove all the barriers in the way of my volcanic autonomy even if that barrier is fun!
>>735071935>this notion that everybody has to play everything or whateveryou LITERALLY cannot read
>>735071987>Make them play what they don't want.>They're worse at what they do want.Problem solved: Just let players play how they want. Nice one, anon.
MMOs a relic of the past.They're not bad games that also act as a not bad chatroom. They gave you conversation starters and a common ground to make friends.They're dead because games got better and chatrooms evolved and got better. I can join a Discord that turns any game into a better chatroom than MMOs provide, allowing me to turn better games than MMOs into a better game and a better chatroom than MMOs.Their purpose is gone. They only exist with millennials, boomers and some zoomers playing the not bad game purely for nostalgia resulting in "strangers silently standing nearby" while they use a better chatroom.A modern MMO like they used to be is completely impossible. Technology and culture has moved on.
>>735072254>I can join a Discord that turns any game into a better chatroomtrooner groomer central
>>735072254>playing the not bad game purely for nostalgiaWoW has some of the best skill expression and PvP in gaming.
>>735072589
I said in global chat with one word 'troon' on Project Gorgon and I immediately got banned and my steam account got flagged with banned as well lol
>>735072254Gacha games like Genshin and WuWa are literal MMOs minus the online interactions. They're mmos for introverts. They even have pay to win and yet some how theyre popular. Their gameplay is better, their quality overall is the same shit, story is the same chosen one shit like every MMO, etc there isnt much difference between Open World Gacha and MMOs. Korea/China tricked everyone into thinking they arent the same.
>>735049125Blame brown third worlders for constantly rmt'ing and botting.
>>735072384/v/ pretending they don't use the most popular video game chat service is pathetic.>>735072589Sure, that's why everyone is begging for WoW clones and why entire studios are banking on their WoW clones or else they fail.>>735072668>gameplay is betterI can't say if you're right or wrong, never watched them nevermind played them but if this is true, that's why they're popular.Paired with the fact that they're gooner games with gambling mechanics. Especially in Asia where they have oppressively long work hours, are bombarded with anime and hentai and have an addictive culture.
Everything in life is low trust now.There was a time when strangers would be all too happy to make friends, ask simple questions and value time spent with. Games were designed around needing each other. In Star Wars Galaxies it was normal to run around and commission people for gear, buffs, housing, droids, pets, etc.. You will never see that cohesion again.Especially now that all classes are some kind of self-sustaining hybrid god.I've played different servers both legitimate and private. The only thing people do is go straight from marker to marker like flesh robots. No character. Half of the people you see are bots anyway.I would be stupid to invest into an MMO.At least, not until the genre gets reinvented.
>>735072815>gameplay is better I meant to say isnt* better knowing 4chan I knew you would hug that one part of the post so ggs
>>735072835Every community, guild or party I've interacted with in multiple MMOs are either massive transvestites or have some sort of reeking toxic positivity about them when you merely point out flaws in certain tactics or builds etc. Everyone's a fucking loser.
>>735072931Should have fixed it, the other points remain. Being a gooner game is a big one because the kind of retards that get that deep into their addiction are the kinds that will overlook everything else.
>>735072835Its the same as back at the start of 7th Gen gaming (2005+) everyone was using their Mic on console. You weren't even allowed to play with people unless you had your mic in especially in games like Gears of War, Rainbow Six Vegas, Halo 3. People wanted to interact and communicate regularly. I would play racing games like MotoGP and everyone was excited to talk about our race as well as irl racing. Fast forward to today now games like Apex Legends are innovative for adding chat commands so people dont have to use a mic. No one talks in any multiplayer game. Everyone is insecure about their voice. Like what in the actual fuck happened that made everyone like this in the span of one generation!?!?!?!
>>735072668I don't think gachas are as popular as people think.https://newzoo.com/resources/rankings/top-20-pc-games.
>>735072746I don't think WoW devs, or whoever, thought "let's make items near untradeable so people don't bot or RMT". They probably just wanted to extend gameplay.
ff14 is my favorite setting possibly for an MMO, I love everything about it. But, the community just is awful which is such a glaring flaw for an MMO.
>>735072815>Sure, that's why everyone is begging for WoW clones and why entire studios are banking on their WoW clones or else they fail.Developers don't have to know WoW skill expression and PvP are good to try to copy it. WoW has some of the most tuned and fun PvE, PvP, and class fantasy in the genre, and I would say that at least PvP holds up vs. headshot simulator shooters and creep farming simulator MOBAs (some of the most played games).
>>735051779This only describes the lowest common denominator.
>>735067484Just range ban third world countries like russia, china and india and most of these problems go away.
>>735072835MMO innovations aren't hard to do. Stop making people quest and mob grind. Make ever activity valuable. Make mobs do cool shit. Again, an MMO is going to be the most played game.
>>735073346Ff14 is a dull as fuck game. Infact when I vision a FF mmo its way more color impact and character design impact but ff14 character creator is one of the worse having little to no depth and the clothing not being super fantasy. Its like is this really a ff game!?!? Where the fuck am I??? Where are the Tifa tier ladies and the jpop boys with super long hair and belts and all black etc. What the fuck is this dull mmo with the final fantasy name on it??? Where is that Japanese fantasy!?!?!?! Now I will say it shows in the trailers but in game the artsyle and graphic presentation just doesn't do it for me. Its not a graphic whore complaint its more like I expect something different when Its Final Fantasy
>>735073445If somebody is in the middle of skill expression, autonomy, and social identity, they're having fun. The height of motivation is the height of fun.
>>735067484Playstyles other than combat should be rewarded tooIf someone dedicates themselves to be the richest player they should be able to buy the best gearIf the best gear can't be traded/sold, people will just use shady means like paying to be carried in raids anyways, that's more immersion breaking than buying the gear directly
Its always jarring to see blizzcucks act like wow was an “old mmo” when it literally is what invented modern quest based progression mmos.
>>735073184>now games like Apex Legends are innovative for adding chat commands so people dont have to use a mic.This existed for like 50 years dude.
>>735069618>>735070340If all content is soloable, I would ask why you would want the game to be an MMO? The main draw unique to MMOs is socializing and the community; if everything is soloable it removes the need to do any of that which in turn makes almost nobody actually socialize in the game because there's no benefit, defeating the main selling point of the genre. This is the current issue that mostly every modern MMO has.When things aren't soloable, you're forced to interact with others to get things done. Depending on the degree to which the game forces you to interact with others (for an example like combat encounters, think instance matchmaking vs needing to find people in the world to party with), you will end up forming connections and social circles out of convenience for the next time you need players for something.Despite this, players should still probably have the ability to solo some (but not all) content, even if it's harder/more tedious to do so compared to party play, just because if absolutely everything requires party play it can become too inconvenient and clunky for shorter play sessions or if you don't feel like socializing constantly. There's also the chance that if something is soloable but it's more beneficial to group up, you may fall into socialization unintentionally while doing solo things and the opportunity arises.
>>735073276NTA but it predates WoW, EQ added them in 1999 in Planes of Fear so that you had to actually kill the boss to get loot and to stop people from passing their gear to lower level characters because there were no level requirements so you could have level 5 characters with full best in slot end game gear.It actually predates EQ because MUDs started to use the same bind on pickup/no trade system and MUDs were MMOs without graphics. As MUDs became more gear driven, the importance of gear made it so you had to earn it yourself so you couldn't get an insane weapon from someone and steamroll everything. In a game like PSO where you could give level 1 characters end game mags(which increased stats) you could then use the stat boost they gave to equip high end rare items and slaughter everything so you could ruin the game for some newbie by giving them some scraps that carry them all the way to end game.
>>735074238Ffxivfags defend that it being storybased is completely valid
>>735073346Sounds like skill issue, I haven’t had many problems in my fc or any random groups I did content with
>>735073569I can't say it's nu-FF anymore, but like a decade and a half ago what you're talking about is nu-FFXIV from a stylistic standpoint (up until they got crazy with modern designs) was more of an ode to NES/SNES FF.
>>735074238>When things aren't soloable, you're forced to interact with others to get things done. Not the anons you quoted, but the systems in place to interact with the community are arguably worse than the systems that allow you to solo FF14. No one wants to submit a resume for a video game, yet thats whats required to join steady groups in end game. The current Savage tier is probably one of the best stories in the game and has interesting boss fights. Yet the game is dying. Community interaction is a joke because the community itself gamified it to an autistic degree.
>>735070340>All content being soloable allows everybody to play whatever role they want (gathering, crafting, trading, WPvE, etc.)What you're describing here are effectively different verticals within the game; it's fine if a single player can gather, craft, trade, WPvE, instanced PvE, WPvP, etc., but within each of those verticals they shouldn't be able to do everything solo. As >>735070976 is getting at, you pick a specialization within that vertical, and to fully progress within/maximize that vertical requires your own specialization along with help from other specializations (other players). If you're thinking trinity combat, a healer is needed to sustain the party, a tank is needed to hold aggro and take hits, a DPS is needed to deal damage. If crafting, getting the best items would likely be an effort between many different professions of high level, and maybe there could be some benefit of personally knowing people of high profession level based on what you're trying to get, or you could have a mutual agreement with someone else of a different profession to trade useful profession-specific items to each other that would help both sides level.A healer could also be an armorsmith, and possibly even a fisherman as well, but a healer cannot also be a tank.I think some older games may limit this even further such that a healer CANNOT also be an armorsmith, but I don't think you necessarily have to go that far to get the intended effect (although you could).
Why not play with /v/'s bizarre MMO adventure's group?
>>735073198It's literally one of the biggest markets out there,mobile gaming in general not just gachasMMOs are the niche game even WoW is fucking tiny compared to something like CoD or Fifa
What's everyone's thoughts on Monsters and Memories?
>>735075915It always cycles past the games I could be interested in.
>>735075915I play with a 4chan guild/ fc in ffxiv and been in there for 6/7 years so far and had zero problems
as a non mmo player, I genuinely believe the last hope for the genre would be a single character 3d action game where instead of having quests and shit, the entire game is a grand strategy between each player. the best thing to do is be emperor of the game, but every single player wants to progress, including your trusted advisors. So the community aspect is appeasing people in hopes you aren't betrayed or taken advantage of. This works from lowly soldiers to war generals, to the emperor. Everyone has a role, everyone wants to capitalise for loot.
The weirdest shit is games that flat out encouraged this like Fortnite and Fallout 76, the former only recently got in game chat and the latter that still doesn't have it.They essentially want players to seek like random customized bots from each other's perspectives.
>>735076461>as a non mmo playerWhat do you think ruined the genre in the first place normalfaggot?
>>735076816That’s bait anon and bad bait at that
>>735076816mmo players wanting to feel like their shit matters in some way. if you're complaining that they don't matter anymore, what else would it be?
I believe MMOs should still be soloable to get early-mid game progression getting exp, lvls, money, gear, mats, etc by yourself. But things like raid bosses, special dungeons, events and the like should not be soloable.
>>735077643What the fuck do you mean normalfag?
>>735077662The only people who believe mmos should be solable beyond farming for profit are tourists to the genre who actually just want to play some stupid bullshit like generic hack and slash rpg #1374728481
Pray for Project Starlighthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7EfX7IKisY
>>735078138>play clementine PSU>have fun>leave for a while>come back to do some exp boost custom event with friends>reach level 200 in like 2 days>theres some new class called acromaster that powercreeps even the master classes>gave SUV weapons to humans/newmansClementine was good as a self-contained experience with friends where we ban the master classes from use but not to relieve the “good old days” of grouping up with randoms.I definitely don’t trust them with starlight. They might add some custom op skills to their favorite classes or make some special snowflake custom class like they wanted to with acrogunner.Might give it a shot with friends if they actually limit the tokyo gold key exp bullshit though.
>>735077662Going out into the open world should AT LEAST be difficult enough to require a party of two. And progression with just a one or two person party should be slow enough to encourage people to party up and go to areas where they need 3 or more to level faster. In fact bonus exp the more people in your party that are combating the same enemy.
>>735077708>my game is dead, ruining the point of the game>game gets a bunch of shit to appeal to new players>my game is shit because it's not dead anymoreat some point you have to acknowledge what it is about the game that made it fun. clearly its the communications aspect. if the game fundamentally forces players to interact in a communicative play with focus related to the game and culture of the playerbase, you get what you desire by default.So my opinion is that a game where the goal is to engage when and how the player pleases, requiring they have challenge with the communications aspects rather than quest-based flower picking, the desires are met. Thus, grand strategy but from the perspective of the player's character to roam and meet other players.
>>735078751The only thing your stupid ass “idea” amounts to is a generic world pvp game. Thats not what old mmo players have been bitching about for decades normalfaggot.Maybe go play a normalfag game you like and leave this community alone.
>>735049028Back in WoW Classic, the dedicated casual normalnigger mmo, you people were crying that its too time consuming and that everyone should be entitled to finish all content, and the devs listened
>>735078915True. The majority of people get what they want and there's still complaints.
>>735070687Mabinogi is a shadow of its former self and currently on the way out thanks to the current director's obsession with funneling everyone toward end game raids.
>>735078527The median for me when it comes to this topic is a game like FFXI.Full-blown effective exp requires a full party of people but a party of 2 can handle something like exp in small bursts 50 per kill instead of 200-500 youd get from a party for example, or being able to farm some item that you cant farm on your own but it becomes plausible with another player.
>>735049028shoulve gatekept
>>735079134Fucking this. Normalfag mainstream audiences flooding into your games/interest will always ruin everything. Keep them the fuck out and things won't be ruined.
>>735078875it doesn't amount to pvp at all. well, not in the traditional sense. If a player wants something their current social setup doesn't give them access to, they can coerce and rally to go do whatever they decide to do to gain access. This could be setting up and preparing for a raid, but to get enough resources, they need the support from their generals, or they can manage a store and trade cross regionally, or they can conspire against an admiral of sorts. But if they don't need some specific self-imposed gear requirement, they can ignore the whole thing all together and just chill in a town or some shit, prob doing mercenary work for players that do decide to campaign for something
>>735079470I don’t think you understand at all what people liked about mmorpgs which is why you’re attempting to make it into a single player experience with a player driven economy. The people you are replying to are completely right about you. If you want to play something like this just play skyrim or something?
>>735079314such a sad shame
>>735055764Players shouldn't be able to craft super special gear, it leads to power creep bs.Gear and leveling should be flattened out, player skill and team play should take president.Also>player steals your shitWas it important? Save up and put out a bounty on his ass.These interactions are more fun than having a op item anyway
>>735079707>>735079314man I hate this so much. What even is the solution here? I just want my MMOs back.
I got bored of classic wow within a week. It just isn't fun and the gameplay loop is excrutiatingly boring. I have no idea how people get motivated to play that raid logging garbage. Kara isn't fun, especially post nerf. Raiding isn't really that fun either. PvP is ok but you really only have AV which is barely pvp and then eye of the storm and arathi basin which already has long ques. It's just not a good game, there isn't much to engage with. Personally I think the genre as a whole is in a bad state and if you want that kind of game you have better options in other genres.
>>735065542The guy who wrote the lore for this went on to direct Dustborne lmaoName a worse career development
>>735078138I just want a PSO remake or a port or something official at this point.
>>735079620I genuinely do not care if they are right about me not understanding. I have no intention of playing an mmo, including the supposed golden age era of mmos. I tried quest 3d, I tried wow when it was new. they didn't appeal to me.my posts aren't about it appealing to me, they are about gaining and potentially providing insight because I only ever see "ree you noob don't get why it's shit but it definitely is!", and when asked why, they consider the question an insult.Just figure it out by talking about it. That's what /v/ is and always was for. Doesn't matter if you're a pre-boxxy oldfig or one of these "haha redditnigger, 4chan was always Trump ass kissing" retards that flooded in when their femoid friends annexed them.
>>735080208>something official>trusting segaI'd take passionate fan made private servers any day
>>735079907>gear ladder homogenized “itemization”Shut the fuck up normalfag>>735080143I really dont understand how people think classic wow is the personification of classic mmos when it is literally what started quest based progression and pattern recognition combat.
>>735080214>providing insightIts just the pretentious ramblings of a faggot trying to force their ideas where nobody wants them. If you are not interested in the genre then why are you here? You gonna tell me your insight and opinions on the genre are objective? That your way to have fun is how you’re supposed to have fun? Fuck off normalfag
>>735080352it's as if you can't read past 3 lines of text. just tell me what the actual issue is so that you and I can think about it. or would prefer to admit defeat and let no fun ever come back?
>>735081391A lot of people here would rather complain just for the sake of complaining than do something.
>>735075915kill yourself matchistop grooming unsuspecting anons
>>735081391Can you read? I told you that your idea of fun is shit. Stop pretending to be objective
>>735081591What? Meds now
>>735080268Oh I agree, I think Classic WoW isn't either. I'm personally waiting for Maplestory Classic World. I've always loved 2D gook games
>>735074238>If all content is soloable, I would ask why you would want the game to be an MMO?Because the various modes of motivation (fun) are heightened in an MMO. Ctrl+F "motivation". You can reward group play more than solo; that's fine.
the oldfags grew up and got jobs, the newfags play mobile games and fortnite instead. combine that with the loss of wonder and exploration because all information is wikified now
>>735081783You could always just not use a wiki?
>>735081605who cares if it's shit? >>735081570you seem to be right but I don't want you to be
>>735074965>within each of those verticals they shouldn't be able to do everything soloWhy? You probably have to nerf content for group play.
>>735076201>WoW is fucking tiny compared to something like CoD or Fifa>WoW is above CoD in the image.
Any thoughts on project gorgon besides getting banned for saying things that would get you banned?
>>735081770>>735051779>Relatedness>The need to feel connected and belongingness with othersI actually do primarily agree with this and the other two points (autonomy and competence), but what you're arguing for falls apart based on the theory you're presenting. You fail on the "relatedness" front when you're allowed to solo everything because you won't feel connected to anyone else and the sense of belonging isn't going to be there either because of it. Relatedness working to its full effect, or at all potentially, relies on community and socialization, which you don't have if the game's systems don't force socialization and allow you to solo everything.You favor autonomy too much at the expense of relatedness, which is arguably the most important motivational aspect of the three in a social setting.
>>735082243Yeah its boomer slop nobody actually likesTheres a reason they never post gameplay and its always "look at our guild meetup!"
>>735073184It's only a theory but I think it might be online regulations. Back then there wasn't almost any. It was fine for 99% of situations but there was some crazy shit in the last 1%.Studios are likely now mandated to have much closer supervision to avoid this 1%, which cost a lot of money and personnel. So they either do it and sometime even overdo it, or they simply remove the ability to use any chat. It might also be why many old multiplayer games are not released anymore.
I miss vanilla and the cute biological women I met while leveling.
>>735082494Again, you can have everything be soloable but reward grouping. In this scenario, people are able to pick what they want, which is the most rewarding.
I still think FFXI is the unsurpassed king of the genre. Which is sad, someone should have made something better by now.
Gamers will always optimize the fun out of everything or demand that the devs change the game with that mindset. The truth is that people don't want to play games, they want to have already played the game in the past because the real content that they want to enjoy is being in on the conversation. With shit like steamcharts threads people don't even have to skip their way through the game anymore because the conversation is meta enough that it's not even about the game anymore.
>>735082703Thats not going to work because the grand majority of people are just going to solo since theres no actual point to grouping up even if you “reward” it.If everything is soloable then what are you rewarding for grouping up? And how exactly is grouping up giving you a sense of accomplishment when you know you could have done the same thing solo.The only way to have group based play is to force the player into it. If they don’t like it then the genre isn’t for them. Its that simple. Don’t bring up monster hunter cause that isn’t an mmorpg that is a lobby based multiplayer game, and even if I were to consider it, it suffers from the same exact problems. I am actively encouraged to play the game solo until I reach the end and even then I don’t actually need another player to get my reward, grouping up often just makes the monster harder.Pic related, lobby based rpg multiplayer designing group play correctly.
>>735083014this but replace "gamers" with "/v/irgins". that's why this website is so insufferable
>>735049125It sucks because I want to 100% agree with you but there are huge problems with keeping every item tradable too. This is coming from someone who played alot during the rsc/rs2 era of runescape. An open economy definitely makes the game feel much more alive and interesting to engage with (starting an in game business, splitting loot from bossing, etc). But the ugly downside like another anon mentioned is that it brings in a fuckload of problems too. 3rd worlders are encouraged to bot all day so they can RWT gold, streamers get their simps to hand everything to them without working for it, cheating and scamming is extra encouraged by lowlifes because they also don't want to work for anything, autistic losers don't want their items """""devalued""""" when new ones are released because they are fixated on a stupud number like a fag. All of these give game devs big headaches when thry have to consider future content and the overall health of the game. The situation just fucking sucks all around no matter if you have an open or closed economy nowadays.
>>735080057Does anyone have a solution for this at all?
>>735083127The answer to this is simple, devs just don’t want to enforce it either because ifs too much work or destroy’s potential revenue. Punish mercing by ban, just like you do with rmt.Police it heavily.
>>735082703>Again, you can have everything be soloable but reward grouping.The viability of this relies heavily on how much heavy lifting the word "can" is doing in that sentence. What advantages and benefits do you expect to have for grouping that would make people want to go out of their way to find a group over soloing everything on their own? Players will most often take the path of least resistance if you let them, and it's not necessarily because they "want" to do it, it can be because it's more convenient or easier. You could maybe get away with this type of design if soloing is extremely difficult/tedious but doable if you really care to try, but if solo is the baseline and partying is the bonus, it won't work. Partying should be the baseline, and solo should be at a detriment to the player.There are certain design choices that allow you to have it both ways, but this very likely isn't one of them. Even if you provide various options for players to choose, they won't always choose the option they think is the most fun; there's more factors that go into their decision making than that.>>735083109Correct points also made here, if you give players the option to not interact they probably won't because interacting is a huge point of friction when compared to solo play if it's not forced.
>>735083121/v/irgins are bad, but they are not the target demographic of a YouTube video with the soi face talking about some broken/meta build or farm spot or whatever for a single player game that doesn't even come out for another 24 hours. The normies are in on this shit too.
>>735065542I did somewhat recently, stopped playing for two years and then learned that apparently you just lose your account if that happens so I have no reason to go back.
I miss TERA so much.
>>735078915But current wow and xiv are both less time consuming and far more prohibitive in who can clear all content. The two arent related at all, difficulty can exist without tedium
>>735083109>>735083521You can obviously reward grouping (magic find, whatever); and in a game where you can get size, speed, and power rivaling comics, for example, certain people will behave in a way that makes people want to group up against him.The pivot is that people will play how they want to. I think the vast majority of people would rather solo, at least until they are comfortable with the game, so allowing them to increases their playtime and attachment. You want people to play what's natural to them, and we live in a time where not socializing is easier to do. That's fine, and designing for it while rewarding the alternative is good.
Star citizen
>>735077662>>735078527Why?
>>735049125only way to make it work is to rangeban all thirdies and vpns from game servers but they won't
>>735058298Which server?
>>735084221I have seen it happen a dozen times across many online multiplayer games. Even if you reward the multiplayer effort with better equipment the grand majority of players will always pick solo.Look at FFXIV, as dogshit as that game is at everything it does I want you to look at specifically the raiding portion of it. It offers the same ilvl gear as the token one you can get by soloing but some pieces have better stats. Most of the playerbase does not bother raiding at all. A lot of the other rewards for the hardest shit in the game that require other people are also purely cosmetic and lo and behold almost nobody does it and the game is praised for its fucking story of all things because dungeons are very cinematic when you do them with npcs. The game was already a horrible multiplayer experience of dodge the piss stain where healers dont actually heal and tanks dont manage aggro but even in the multiplayer portions the game fails to grab the player at all.I saw it happen to my beloved favorite mmo game FFXI. People just merc everything now and exp parties don’t exist thanks to trusts. Even the supposed endgame multiplayer content is merc’d because its impossible for you to get into groups unless you have CP and gear first, which you merc or painstakingly solo using trusts. The game is also powercreeped to hell and most of its charm in combat is lost to homogenization and gear ladders.Letting the player solo everything doesn’t fucking work, you have to force the players to group and limit the things they can do solo.
>>735077804Being able to do anything without waiting for a group and/or having bad groups is extremely rewarding. People feel more powerful when they aren't limited and have choice. Various reasons to group up will soften their resolve to one man army eventually. People get bored of soloing all the time. Just make socializing fun.
>>735049028Classic WOW is peak MMO. Really enjoyed it in 2019-2020. If there were classic WOW servers that actually cared about eliminating bots and gold sellers, I'd still be playing it. Blizzard doesn't give a shit though, so I stopped.
>>735084221>You can obviously reward grouping (magic find, whatever)This isn't enough.>The pivot is that people will play how they want to. I think the vast majority of people would rather solo, at least until they are comfortable with the game, so allowing them to increases their playtime and attachment.You're correct that the vast majority would rather solo, and they will. At their expense. If you want to design a game you have to be designing the experience for the player, because there are certain patterns that players will naturally fall into based on the game's systems and mechanics even if alternatives exist. You can't just put everything into the game and say "well players will do what they want to," they are far more likely to go with the easiest pattern that's presented to them and then experience the effects of that, which is soloing and getting bored. The easiest pattern is not the most fun or interesting pattern.I would be more inclined to say that allowing people to solo everything will DECREASE their playtime and attachment overall because the gameplay loops you're incentivizing do not lead to attachment to the game, its world, or its community. Socialization is a pretty good driver of playtime and attachment. You should try and maximize it.
>>735074436An MMO should never be story-based. It is antithetical to the whole concept of the MMO.
>>735083109PSO proved online RPGs are straight up better than MMOs in every way. Path of Exile type games are amazing but the issue with diablo games is the gameplay itself. It's isometric top down. PSO is remembered fondly because it isn't isometric top down. Apply diablo loot style loot filters and apply it to something like monster hunter style gameplay or souls or something and boom you have something that slaughters the idea of even wanting to play an MMO. PSO > the entire MMO genre. Period
>>735085472What's wrong with isometric topdown?
>>735080057>>735083218Again, we'll all play games together, and an MMO will be the most played game. You can get social identity in an MMO that you can't get in other genres. Imagine being the most renowned player and getting to play with celebrities. Gaming brings people together more intensely than other mediums.
>>735085472I love PSO and I still play it on Ephinea but you’re wrong. They scratch different itches for me. I tend to not play with randoms in pso often, as opposed to FFXI on a private server where I frequently join pugs outside of my circle of friends.It scratches a different itch and both are loot-based as well.
What was wrong with Ragnarok Online?
>>735085472PSO BB is a good experience when you want a game to play in short bursts that offers a good cooperative experience. It is much better than monster hunter in that regard as well.MMORPGs like everquest or FFXI scratch a different itch considering I’d never get anything like traversing a dungeon like sacrarium or phominua aqueducts with a group in PSO.
>>735085656the fuck makes you think we want to play games with normalfags zoomers and npc goycattle? when will you realize that the normalfags and their ilk are the real issue? mainstream audiences ruin EVERYTHING
>>735085580It isn't an issue but there is to many of them. There isn't enough games like PSO. Infact nobody seems to have tried making a game like Diablo but with a different style of combat and viewpoint. I don't know why. ARPG/Loot games should try something not isometric and I think it would stick.
>>735085656>we'll all play games togetherwe wont
>>735085472I think this is what Deep Down was supposed to be but Capcom couldn't figure out how to make it work. Who knows that game could still be somewhere in their pocket quietly being developed.
>>735085656I wish I could be as optimistic as you but the unfortunate reality is there's too many bad actors out there to make playing together with them anything people would desire.
>>735085939I dont think diablo is like PSO. Tell me what class in diablo resembles the utility that Ranger classes or force classes bring to the game.>inb4 buff classes bad
>>735086076auradin? bardarian?
>>735049028>>735049028testwow bad ff14 good
>>735086113>buff that lasts 3 secondsCome on man.
>>735086320>3 secondswhat? auras are permanent and with right synergies barb shouts can last well over 5 minuteshttps://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_Command
>>735049028they still are but you have to play top tier content AKA wars in pvp games or harder raids on pve side.there s no need to cooperate or engage in socialization for easy content and for itself there s already a hundred ways to do itextra take - if riot s mmorpg is even decent it ll be the biggest dating platform ever
>>735073526>he thinks the boundary exists anymorethey're overpaid, oversexed, and over here
>>735086479Oh this is diablo 2. I mean, its still not really the same. POE and Diablo aren’t exactly games where if you pick the “support” class your job is to maintain everything debuffed and keep people healed and status effect free.About the most similar thing this game shares with PSO is CC maybe but execution still feels different.
>>735084925>FF XIV doesn't offer good group rewards.>This is supposed to prove you can't incentivize players to group.Most things wouldn't provide a group's worth of rewards. Think gathering, crafting, trading, and WPvE. You're only going to get enough resources for a player or two at a time, for example, and it would be more efficient to split up and engage different areas (and maybe combine the resources for crafting). This is true for everything. A guild that exploits magic find and multiplied drops can more easily fill guild banks and buy out the economy. I don't think there's a fix for this. Why let a guild completely rule the server when you can simply design for solo play and let resources deplete naturally? Cooperation is still going to be rewarded because people can combine efforts.>>735085236There are plenty of reasons to group up that aren't getting extras. See bounties or logistics. Self Determination suggests both that players will value you respecting their time (and power; they'll feel stronger if they can do whatever they want solo), and that people will socialize when they get bored (because they like the game and want to explore the sociosphere). Making everything soloable isn't that everything is easier solo, or that grouping is meaningless. I just don't think the game would be as fun if you couldn't solo everything.What are some rewards you could get for grouping up for dungeons and raids?
>>735086076Its not the classes its the loot style mechanics I guess you could say. If I remember right the devs themselves said PSO was formed based off of Diablo but they wanted a different perspective. And nobody after them tried what they did. We need more loot style games like PSO
>>735049028No one wants to commit and compete for 3 hour raids every night.
>>735086052Again, behavior and fun are "development" problems. Just give them all computers and make them play with their country or so. When somebody that gets value and innovation is president, people will be happier.
>>735078915>you people were crying that its too time consuming and that everyone should be entitled to finish all contentWho was that? The retards on the official forums?Those idiots were just fucking retards. Name any terrible decision made by Blizzard and you can bet that the chucklefucks on the forums were begging for it. Remember the fucking Kung Fu Panda expansion everyone made fun of? The idiots on the forums were constantly demanding Panderia.Another example is that, back in Vanilla, the forum niggers were absolutely convinced that the Trolls had the worst racials and would constantly complain about it. They were convinced of this because Troll in-combat health regeneration wasn't very high, at most about 5hp a second if they went for a full spiritmax build. The niggers on the forums thought that it should have been a permanent Renew spell on them at all times for some fucking reason, forgetting that the trolls also had an active haste racial that was good in all situations that could be used on cooldown, which alone made them the BIS race for a bunch of classes, along with a damage bonus to the most common enemy type in the game. But, no, they would have insisted that trolls might as well not even HAVE racials if troll regeneration wasn't basically a permanent Renew.
>>735086716Cooperation isn’t being rewarded because there no agency to it, especially if we’re letting people play at their own pace. If theres no actual meaning to being at the top of the world then you just won’t bother doing it or take your time getting there.Your ideas aren’t based in realistic points of views. I gave you examples of several games where this happens to.
truth is you ll have as much socialization as you want as long as you are desirable, just like irljust be good at the game.
>>735049028china
>>735087035Again, people can combine efforts like not getting PvP'd because there are multiple of you, saving time. Nobody said being at the top is meaningless. >>735070862.
>>735076216it's been great for a couple years nowwill definitely play when it launchespvp mostly though because the play nice policy is pretty gay (well the policy is whatever but the people who wield it on other players egregiously are gay)
>>735084794Reborn. It's basically given me the 1x grind and classic experience I've been looking for and has such cool aesthetics and still looks real nice to boot.I've joined a friendly clan to talk and play with and have made a decent amount of friends already so far who, when they're online, we can do catacombs seven signs events or raid bosses and when they're not, I can solo for money/very slow leveling or level alts to experience more different classes and areasI've been real happy with it and it's nice that an MMO like this can still be played, be fun, and are alive in 2026. Just played for 5 hours this morning during ceremonies and shit and will take lunch now and continue in the afternoon.
>>735087628Oh meant to say Reborn on Signature 1x C4I tried the 10x Eternal Interlude one but that's just not right and I went back to 1x
>>735087475PvP is a normalfag thing. If PVP is the focus then we aren’t talking about MMOs anymore.
>>735049028Two things killed MMOs1, You aging up2, Advancement in Social Media platforms for sharing informationThat is it. Its not how pay to win the game was, it not bad game management or design. There was plenty of MMOs to play before and after the age of social media. Its the fact that you are spoiled by the flow of information. Nothing is a surprised anymore.For example: Aion 2 is soon but before you can get a chance to play it there are:- Guides for all classes- Guides for all Raids- Guides on what to do when you reach end games- Leveling Guides - Guides on Crafting, Gathering, Mining, whatever end game farming the game offers- Learn all the changes between KR and Global servers- Learn how to Pay to Win.... and pretend like you're upset about Pay to Win meanwhile dropping hundreds on cosmetics outfits and Gold And (You) along with all of your friends soak up this information and yell at anyone that isnt following the guide to a T. Even when someone ask you a question you direct them to THE GUIDES and vice versa. Basically what Im saying is your lack of social engagements inside the game that go beyond you and your circle of few friends is why MMOs suck now and why social media platforms became the end all to social engages for games like MMOs. Inside the game everyone is a mute because any questions asked leads then to THE GUIDES. And no live service game will ever exist without THE GUIDES forever now
>>735088207>No True PvP MMO.Not an argument.
>>735088605To be fair world pvp and cooperative play are two different fucking things.Theres nothing similar about playing an mmo where you play together versus one where you are fighting to survive some gank or something.Theres a reason why mmos started doing things like pvp servers or areas and why we basically dont see anything like UO anymore.
>>735088605It is because pve and pvp are two different things. You basically are basing yourself entirely on pvp, I still don’t agree anyway because you’re relying on the comfort of everything being easily accessible solo in order to make the consequence of pvp lighter. You don’t really have a point. You also pretend players can play at their own pace in a world pvp game, thats just not realistic at all.
In PvE MMOs like WoW and its clones the PvP is a for-fun game mode that neither playerbase nor devs care about. PvP only works in actual PvP MMOs like Eve or Albion Online.
>>735087475>>735088605>PvPHow do you reconcile "people will play how they want to" with players who want to solo being ganked by PvP parties whenever they go into the world?Solo players can't play how they want to with PvPers around.
>>735088693>>735088795PvP servers are fine.
>>735089223lol pussy bitch loser poor irl
>>735085682became some of the biggest grindslop in the world with all of it's extra layered classes. making previous classes lose their identity and place.
it's my fault. I gave up trying to roleplay/have fun with randoms in every mmo I play. it's like my imagination and sense of whimsy ran out. I stopped putting in the effort.but I think games having too much convenience and automation made it so that interaction with other players feels pointless and forced. the people who play games like that only care about their numbers going up, and when they run out of content they complain in global chat about the endgame. but the real content in MMOs was meant to be your interactions with other players. the friends and memories we made along the way.
>>735089138> >>735073382
>>735089223So play on a PvE server.
>>735089339>games having too much convenienceThats funny because nowadays this is seen as a positive in MMOs. Not having to grind for 10 hours, the last relic of mmo players enjoy this lmao
>>735089246>PvP serversSo do you plan on having a game that is simultaneously designed around full loot PvP, but also has servers where PvP is disabled? What's the plan here?
>>735088587I would play a game with good combat and a wiki.I wouldn't play a game with bad combat and no wiki, even if it was extremely social.
>>735089465I'm currently in the waiting room for the classic release of my favorite mmo and the amount of suggestions for shit that doesn't belong is ridiculous. At least I feel better no one reads those.
>>735088587I think that's only part of the truth. Modern MMOs (especially korean ones) would still suck even if guides didn't exist. MMORPGs just aren't interesting anymore. If you've played one then you've played them all. Grind to max level and then it's just doing dungeons, raids, or pvp. It's all very boring
>>735089479Yeah, sure.
>>735089406Then it goes back full circle to the intial point. You can’t deliver a freeform at your own pace experience that offers both group play and solo play, if anything the mmo that best allowed players to play at their own pace was pre abyssea ffxi where the amount of soloing you could do was limited which fomented group play on top of all the things in existence that already required it like missions.The game had a sweaty hardcore audience that had everything and was the bare minimum sure but the actual community thrived in its midcore audience.
>>735089570Maplestory?
>>735089658Can you explain how you expect that to work? You remove a core mechanic of the game that most systems and the economy revolves around. How do systems that rely on the existence of PvP function without any PvP?
>>735089781Correct, most of these people don't deserve to have their thoughts heard.
>>735089789Pretty sure thats not even the original anon anymore. Just an instigating discordfag trying to have his fun with contrarian vagueposting. The tranny doesn’t actually care about the argument
>>735089580>Modern MMOs (especially korean ones) would still suck even if guides didn't exist. No they wouldnt because you will focus more on accomplishing thing in game if guides do not exist. If you cant use the flow of information you have to go out of you way to accomplish things in game. That could be something as simple as being more social in game.
>>735049028because those people joined all of them and they did what they always do which is talk about how much they absolutely love the current community but it would be even better if the community catered to all their specific desires. then they got their fellow weirdos to all start joining the game and applying for mod positions where they could quietly ban anyone who didn't agree that the community would be better if it bent to their desires. then after silencing anyone who thought otherwise they started claiming they were now the majority playerbase so the content should all be catered specifically to their desires as well. then again they banned anyone who didn't agree that the game direction was better off being bent to their desires. now they've successfully driven off everyone who had even a little interest and have successfully more or less killed an entire video game genre.
I've only played a few small browser MMOs as a kid, "real" MMOs never interested me. Can someone recommend one to me like:>must have open world PvP (not interested in arenas or things like that)>NOT full loot (I like to go all in on fights and not have to worry about punishing deaths)>preferably race vs race or faction vs faction thing, where attacking your own faction is discouraged (free for all is fine if the game is fun enough though)now this is the hardest requeriment:>the PvP community aren't all psychos that want to grief the PvE players out of the game and ruin everything
>>735087016Troll racial wasnt good until sHaste got changed years later retard
>>735089952I think you're wrong. If someone tried retail WoW without any guides, they would be completely overwhelmed and in all likelihood quit
>>735090293As a single individual? Yes. But every fucking body in the game is just like them. If the whole server is just like them theyre going to be social as fuck because you cant progress properly without building bonds with other players thus focusing less on the things you dislike and more on accomplishments
Is BDO worth getting into?
>>735089659What's wrong with solo-ability in a socioeconomy where most players naturally gravitate to playing alone? Are their standards better or worse than forcing everybody to group up? What's the actual point in making everybody wait on and carry each other when everybody should have whatever they want (in a reasonable time)? Nothing is stopping people from combining their funds and buying out the auction house, or any of the other benefits to grouping.
>>735089789Full loot is literally just for the intensity. It doesn't change anything except how loot is handled on death. You can have starter equipment or cheap crafted gear.
>>735090414Why would they be social? They would speed to max level extremely fast, meaning the world is empty. Then sit in the new major city and queue for dungeons and get gear, and so on. See where I'm going? The game itself is ass. It's not designed in a way where you're immersed into the world nor does it have systems that encourage socialization
>>735069137One of a kind MMORPG and still doing it's own thing since the beginning. But it has problems and all the fun is hundreds of hours away from the new player experience.
>>735090643>Leveling.>Ever.
>>735090643What are you even talking about? Are you nufag jumping into the conversation?
>>735090496Whats the point of an mmorpg if you’re not actually playing with other people? Whats the point of any multiplayer game if theres no forced cooperation.>i’m hitting this hp stick with my sword next to another guy hitting it with their swordIs this your idea of multiplayer?
>>735090818Huh? the guy I replied to said that people would be social if everyone who played retail WoW did so without any guides, and provided reasons why that wouldn't be the case
>>735069618The ENTIRE point of an MMO is that you cannot do things by yourself. MMOs are supposed to be designed to mandate cooperation.If you remove that, you have created a single player game with a hubworld to look at other people's cosmetics.
>>735091356But not for everything. Big stuff and endgame stuff yeah but you don't need to mandate it for literally everything.
>>735091082When have people usually grouped up? People have been playing mostly solo for decades. It doesn't make the world any less exciting. Again, you can give players whatever they want when they're solo. You can't necessarily do that for groups.
>>735090595I don't agree, and I also don't believe you understand the implications of having a full loot PvP game if you think that, but sure. That's not the main point, anyway.How do systems that rely on the existence of PvP function without any PvP?
>>735091517>people have been playing mostly solo for decadesYou mean in games that actively encourage them to do so because before you were born a decade ago they sure fucking weren’t playing solo all the time.
>>735091356>The ENTIRE point of an MMO is that you cannot do things by yourself.Look at it simplified. You can always play solo. You can't always play with groups.
>>735091468You do have to though.
>>735091564>How do systems that rely on the existence of PvP function without any PvP?For example?>>735091627People have to take the initiative to group up, and most people don't (and haven't).
>>735091646Why?
>>735091645This wouldn't be a big issue if everyone was playing.>>735085656
>>735092083That is just way too optimistic
>>735091761>Any territory control/siege system>Any system that relies on physically escorting items across the open world for rewards>Most GvG mechanicsExplain how any of these function correctly without PvP
>>735091761You are literally assuming things. People play on FFXI private servers all the time nowadays and they group up with randoms by taking initiative. Just because the average zoomer playing fortnite and ffxiv isn’t capable of this doesn’t mean there isn’t a community that is capable of it.Moreover the only way you fix such a flawed mentality for the genre is by forcing people out of their comfort zone.
>>735092534>private servers
new mmo drops this month
>>735092396>Any territory control/siege systemShared control? Everybody gets benefits whether they helped or not.>Any system that relies on physically escorting items across the open world for rewardsIdeally, NPCs would be strong and smart enough to contest travel and logistics.>Most GvG mechanicsYou obviously don't have GvG PvP. You can have parses and leaderboards.
>>735092534I'm just saying that the vast majority of people don't consistently group up.>Moreover the only way you fix such a flawed mentality for the genre is by forcing people out of their comfort zone.You don't make people do anything. Most people will quit before they wait for groups for hours.
>>735092741Is there some kind of problem?
>>735092954>>Any territory control/siege system>Shared control? Everybody gets benefits whether they helped or not.Usually this involves one side attacking to gain control of the objective, and the other side defending the objective they have. Unless you plan on using NPCs for that too.So your plan is to replace all instances of required PvP with AI-controlled players?
>>735090142The last requirement is always satisfied in every game that has the former. Psycho griefers are always a small minority but will always exist if it is possible.
>>735093161Thats a false statement. People will group up if they have to. You’re just avoiding the point by pretending it doesn’t exist.
Here's a nice article by an old MUD dude. https://www.raphkoster.com/2022/09/01/sandbox-vs-themepark/I like the terms simulationism and stagecraft he uses. I never was a MMO player, but I wish for a simulationist cooperative MMO. Player created content is in constant flux so guides get outdated, and you have to actually interact with the world.
Where the new mmos at?
Chatgpt thread
>>735093631Reminder that because you didn’t gatekept faggots like this your genre got ruined.
mmos doko
>>735093741The genre is essentially "dead" or maybe unalive just like RTS.
>>735093741Don't need a new one, old ones are still fine if you find the right server and community. I fear for a new one anyways with the current state of the industry and consumers.
>>735082746>I still think FFXI is the unsurpassed king of the genreLevel 75 era FFXI was the true MMO experience. You really just had to be there. You couldn't even leave the fucking cities without some rabbit fucking your shit up. And gil was hard to come by when you were new. I remember when I got a level 9 Spatha for my WAR after using a basic Bronze Sword for days. That shit felt GOOD. Holy shit I went from taking 5-8 hits to 3 to kill a rabbit. This shit is insane. Real progression. And the entire game just continued with that feeling. I miss that shit so much dude. I tried Horizon and it felt somewhat okay for a while but the magic has really gone. The magic of being a teenager in the FFXI world in 2005 is truly gone.
>>735092954>>735093439In addition to this, any system that has multiple parties competing over a single objective would fall apart. Any 3-faction PvP system has this constantly happening. How are you supposed to attack the other sides without PvPing them?How are scarce open world objectives contested without PvP?
>>735094015Reminded of Dot Hack Fragment now. Wish it was more than a lobby game, or at the very least had a hub area where you could see multiple players like PSO.
>>735094015
>>735087628Good
>>735093741No point when you can take any popular genre and convert it into live service. Or abandon everything for mobile games like Asia is doing. We're only starting to see oversaturation kick in on that front. Give it at least five years for them to flail aimlessly before testing the MMO market.
>>735049028>MMOs used to be worlds you lived in. Now they're just singleplayer games with strangers silently standing nearby. What happened?Because every single online multiplayer game has most of the functions that most MMORPG's had. So you can get the same social experience in MMORPG's. The appeal for most MMORPG's is gone.
>>735064865>killing monsters who were 10 levels above me to level up with some strangers for hours, can you do that now?Nope. To prevent abuse and powerleveling, any monster that's 6 levels higher than you will not drop any XP whatsoever when killed. Stay in your designated leveling lane.
>>735079707This hurt to readWhy do things have to suck so much now?
MMOs died when they stopped developing for the explorer players in bartle's player taxonomy. that one 2008 paper that tries to discredit bartle's player taxonomy due to the explorer type not showing up after surveying 7000 players didn't find any explorer types because they surveyed fucking EverQuest 2 which had already killed and buried exploration. content that attracts explorers is the true soul of a virtual world and hails from the roots of the genre as an adventure game first. for those that don't know Multi User Dungeons are called that not because they are dungeon games but because MUD1 was conceived to be a multiplayer version of the adventure game called Dungeon. Which was the fortran port of Zork. So MUD is really just Multiplayer Zorklike Adventure Game. And MMOs which were originally known as Graphical MUDs should really consider returning to their adventure game roots instead of focusing on being stat grinders or loot farmers. Tabletop RPGs have also fallen to this perversion where they were originally adventure games splitting away from wargaming but the nu audience became too focused on stat crunching and combat which are actually not the intended focus point of roleplaying.
>>735100939Explorers died because wikis became readily available, and in an online competitive environment not using them becomes a disadvantage.I was playing WoW a couple of years ago for the first time (a bit late, I know) and I was doing some level 30 raid and people were mad at me for not at least checking out the boss online beforehand, to know its patterns and what spec I was supposed to run with my class.
>>735093439>>735094536When do PvE servers have anything that seems like PvP conflict? They just physically compete for resources. They don't attack each other.
>>735102168guides equivalent to wikis were already readily available back in the mud days and widely distributed on the game forums, irc channels, and usenet groups. the notion that information was hard to come by back then is a myth. explorers were the players that were writing the guides. what changed now is that games are now designed to be far too easy to explore for most players so the mystique that drives the manifestation of the explorer as a distinct type of player is dried up.
>>735102539PS: I guess I would at least have randomly, NPC contested zones (like GTA: SA).
>>735070856>Fromsoft proved that players aren't actually that retarded>Produces the most the minmaxed, wikifocused community for a AAA gameSure.....
>>735094004What the fuck are you talking about? Raph Koster was in on the ground floor you stupid fucker. He designed UO.
>>735103625modern exploration being "too easy" is the wrong word because exploration shouldn't be made into a difficult wall. modern exploration has become too shallow and doesn't drive the spirit anymore. also a good adventure is still fun to explore even after it's been figured out.
Somebody copy ARK for an MMO. It's literally Pokemon With Guns. It's one of the best survival crafting games, and one of the best games available.
>>735105031mmos are supposed to be virtual worlds. that means all aspects of life from leisure to competition. survival crafting games only achieve warzone simulations where everything is pressured to take its most meta optimized for combat, production, or defense form possible. in that environment there is almost no space for leisure and recreation and in such a competitive environment its a waste of resources for players to attempt to roleplay it.
>>735049125>"let me instill neofeudalism!!!"
>>735105754>As if base building isn't comfy.Also, you're acting as if everything is combat, but it would have gathering, crafting, and trading like most any MMO, plus taming and breeding.
>>735106339People who put in the time would get the product.
>>735106465all are things that revolve around tribe warfare meta. it is all combat.
>>735107371On PvP servers, any MMO is "all combat". Just play on PvE servers if you don't want competition.
>>735107512pvp pve server split is the problem. there should not be an all combat or all non-combat server. both fail the all aspects of life simulation that a virtual world is supposed to be.
>>735107881Real life has competition.Also, what's your suggestion?
>>735107512mmo pvp servers dont have towns wholly designed by players into factorio tier meta bases. they're designed as lived-in settlements with civilian residents.
I want to be an evil wizard. What are the best wizard mmos?
>>735108212I'm not sure what your criticism is.
>>735108332then you're retarded and can't comprehend the difference between a survival crafting world and a simulated lived-in world
>>735108494The point of either is suspension of disbelief. Base building isn't egregious.
>>735049028social media replaced social gamesnow gaming is for artistic escapism or dopamine grinding
>>735108239What are you looking for for the "evil" part?
>>735049125I quit maplestory when they started doing this with gacha only items.
>>735108682Are you suggesting people often social media for hours every day?
>>735049028AI chat nazis monitoring even private conversations.
>>735062489Anon didn't even mention world of warcraft
>>735108971if by "often" you mean "use" then yes
>>735109081I think you vastly overestimate how much people use social media.
>>735109147>Doomscrollers aren't realLol
>>735109221>A large percentage of people farm Twitter and Reddit replies.People aren't usually popular or replied to.
>>735109147look into it
>>735109343You hallucinated something that wasn't said.
>>735108747I want to curse and burn my enemies. Experiment on slaves to increase my magical powers.I need to fuel my spells with the suffering of mortals.
>>735109352Twitch users that have more than 15 viewers are like 5% of the total. I imagine that people trying to engagement farm don't do it that much, because it's not that fun or rewarding, especially not like playing a game is.>>735109401Then what are you implying people do? Do you really think people spend anywhere near similar amounts of time as Fortnite or APEX?
>>735109720>Then what are you implying people do?see >>735109221
>>735109869Yeah, people probably get bored of that really quickly. I don't think hourly social media gets anywhere near as much time spent as videogames.
>>735110025Honestly, am I talking to a bot? Do you even know what I'm saying?
>>735110163Do you doomscroll? For more than an hour per day?
>>735110218>Do you ?
>>735109596Hmm unfortunately that might be more a Skyrim Oblivion thing than something an MMO has
>>735110317If you're asking me, no, I don't doomscroll. I used to farm engagements for a few minutes every day, but people don't usually reply, so I got bored of it.
>>735059935>>735062762what's happening with MS?
>>735049125>the entire economyNever understood this desire that some people have to work at a virtual job that doesn't pay you. It's a fucking game, you're supposed to have fun with it.
>>735111765>work at a virtual jobYou made this up in your head lol
>>735110835Releasing a classic server with some re-balancing of classes and new areas on Victoria Island.
>>735073768No one is saying you can't slave away chopping down trees all day and be rewarded for it, the only difference is that you're selling those logs to NPCs instead of players.
>>735110835we're going home.
>>735083884Get a ps4/5 and play it
>people legitimately raiding and getting high ilvl is the point of mmosThe real endgame is looking good and showing off cool mounts, pets/minions, outfits, titles, and houses that have trophies from hard bosses you killed. It’s like non one here played any MMOs other than wow here even ffxi and ffxiv has this shit
>>735084506MMOs should encourage people to play together and filter out early on players that don't want to play together. It's better for the longterm content and community. Catering to solofags that would be better off playing a singleplayer game is crap.
Hopefully AI gets good enough that I can vibe code the perfect mmorpg
>>735115416One gimmick title that's tied to stupid content is enough to get me playing more compared to good loot. I rarely played any games that got me with it.
>>735115609A lot of people are going to be averse to socialization and will thus benefit from a game respecting their solo efficiency. Again, people are going to quit if grouping is necessary and consistently takes too long.
All these threads are basically:>OSRS players bitching everything is a wow clone>WoW players bitching that FFXIV sucks and is totally not better than WoW>FFXIV players bitching that FFXIV isnt as good as it use to be>Some obligatory modern /v/ schizo doing schizo things
>>735116189>people are going to quit if grouping is necessary and consistently takes too long.Maybe they shouldn't be playing an mmorpg
>>735102539>When do PvE servers have anything that seems like PvP conflict?I'm asking you these questions because unless you plan on removing a bunch of systens (and as a consequence, altering the game's economy significantly), many of which would be major for a PvP-focused game, specifically for PvE servers, you will run into issues. A lot of games don't run into such issues because many MMOs aren't PvP focused and the open world has no content that demands any PvP.>>735103724>PS: I guess I would at least have randomly, NPC contested zones (like GTA: SA).Works in some instances (bandits attacking you on an open world loot run) but not others (weekly 3-faction siege event). You could avoid it being an issue by just choosing not to have a bunch of mechanics so the PvE servers can function, but it would be at the expense of the PvP server.You could choose to do that, but now you've split your playerbase (and will probably continue to do so further with other decisions) and are giving one or both sides an inferior version of the game because you're too cowardly to make a proper design decision and want to have everything both ways.
what led to the rise of the incels on MMOs?
>>735116259Maybe everybody likes MMOs and the devs want as many players as possible. Especially on a PvP server, the more players the better.
>>735049028Social aspects were designed out of the game (LFG tools for the most part) while socializing moved to third party services entirely (Discord for the most part).MMOs turned into hyper casual games barely a tier above a mobile game that people just log in to in order to feel like they gained progress in something for minimal friction and effort.
>>735116320I don't think limiting PvE server area control to a few NPC attacks every once in a while is compromising design.
>>735108984Every single point he mentioned is something WoW ended up doing. He's defining those as moving away from MMOs which implicitly defines as vanilla WoW if you are not fucking stupid.
>>735116742Do you think people usually post in Discord more than they play games? People just want a game to play all day, every day.
>>735049028>MMOs used to be worlds you lived in. Now they're just singleplayer games with strangers silently standing nearby. What happened?Blame asmongold, he unironically did everything possible to kill MMO's
>>735116684>Maybe everybody likes MMOssome don't though, for the reasons the other poster described>the devs want as many players as possible. designing MMOs to cater to people that don't like MMOs is the reason why the genre is dead>Especially on a PvP server, the more players the better.do you not plan on having split PvP and PvE servers? what makes you think these players that don't want to group are going to play on a PvP server?
>>735049028women and censorship happened
ASHES OF CREATION WILL SAVE THE GENRE!
>>735117027There is nothing about MMOs that mean they have to fit the mold of Everquest. Stop.
>>735116684it does not fucking matterthe catering to solo players effects the gameplaybecause solo players want to play solo, they add advantages to playing solothis disrupts the people that are playing an MMO for the MMO aspects since they are forced to do solo grinding bullshitit's not good for the health of the gameif you want to play a singleplayer game, play a singleplayer game
>>735117143I don't think that either, but there are certain things you should and shouldn't do within the MMO framework. Your game will be dead if you are a coward.
>>735117027>some don't though, for the reasons the other poster describedEverybody is going to benefit from solo viability, and content can be more challenging without getting frustrated at teammates.>designing MMOs to cater to people that don't like MMOs is the reason why the genre is deadYou're fabricating that people who want to solo "don't like MMOs", but most, if not, everybody would benefit.>what makes you think these players that don't want to group are going to play on a PvP server?I mean, more players on a PvE server is good too because it makes the world feel more alive, they're probably contributing to the economy, and they're more options for socialization. Barring that, PvP games are vastly more popular than SP/PvE games.
>>735117229>this disrupts the people that are playing an MMO for the MMO aspects since they are forced to do solo grinding bullshitYou're fabricating that. Grouping can be incentivized, and in many cases, it naturally is.
>>735117428> Grouping can be incentivized, and in many cases, it naturally is.see >>735083109 >>735083521 >>735084925 >>735085236
>>735117323Again, stop trying to push MMOs into the Everquest mold. Grouping up in UO was something you did if you absolutely needed the help or if you wanted to, not something that was forced on you if you wanted to do literally anything. You could play for hundreds and hundreds of hours solo without a problem. There were other MMOs just like that.
>>735117523I've already replied to those posts. Incentivizing group play doesn't magically not incentivize players. Group play doesn't magically make the game better if grouping is slow or if people quit because they would rather solo and the game doesn't allow them to. Losing players is always bad. People that want to group will do it. People aren't going to quit because people can solo content.
>>735117601what do you think "respecting players solo efficiency" means?what existed in UO that needed the help if you could just solo?
>>735117921>what do you think "respecting players solo efficiency" means?It means 'the game needs to be playable alone, if somewhat less efficient'.>what existed in UO that needed the help if you could just solo?Originally? Protection against malicious PKers and PK groups. More stuff was added as the game went on and shards like Outlands have special group content. Solo play was literally always part of the game from day 1 and it's the game that set the model for MMOs so whining about solo players is faggot shit.
>>735118216I see, I'm curious about this now so I'll go look into it more and see how else it was handled in UO. Thanks for the info
