What was the plan with johto's dex?
>>736214570The plan was to have a dex that was about 50% babies and cross-gen evos, but then they reworked the entire dex and had no idea where to put many of the Pokemon, so they put a number of them in completely random places as 1% encounters.
>>736214570Johto was more designed as a legit sequel where you would use your old favorites with a few new faces. Different design philosophy to what came after so it comes out looking like a black sheep of the franchise.
>>736214570Makes you wonder if they actually learned from it or if they would've still put new mons into later areas in Hoenn and Sinnoh given the opportunity. Johto has a few cool Pokemon, it's just that you hardly see them.
>>736214604>and had no idea where to put many of the Pokemon,except of course in the case of houndour there was a route where you encounter vulpix and growlithe and it would have been ridiculously easy to simply make houndour the night versionmurkrow would have been stupidly easy to put in trees, and do a reverse spearow where it sleeps during the day
Test
>>736214570Still makes me mad, like would it have been so hard to put Houndour somewhere between Azalea Town and Ecruteak City?
Baby pokemon were a neat idea that was horribly executed. Instead of being used as a way to let certain pokemon lines be more accessible earlier, they were used as annoying dex filler because they wanted to incentivize breeding.
>>736214704this
>>736214570I like Wooper, he's my guy.
>>736214976>gen 4 finally tries to do this with munchlax>locks it behind the most godawful minigame in the form of honey treesand the silliest was baby pokemon of pokemon that were already early game, like pikachu, jigglypuff and clefairy
>>736214570Have everyone pick the GOAT electric mon
>>736215089ampharos looks dumb, there I said it
>>736215089>pick the GOAT electric monDefinitely, it's still one of my favorites.
>>736214570Well, back in the day, it was less "Johto's Pokedex" and more "the new Pokedex".Game Freak was mostly concerned with how to explain the presence of new Pokemon. It sounds weird from a modern perspective where almost every new Pokemon is just a new local species and has been for years, but they didn't have convention to fall back on. So the discovery of all these new Pokemon was made an in-universe event. Basically all of them were given at least a loosely implied reason to have not been seen in the Gen 1 games.Some of them just got unlucky, and the implied "reason" they were given was being so rare they didn't have enough sightings to warrant even an empty Pokedex slot until now.It kinda sucks from a gameplay perspective because it drops many otherwise interesting Pokemon so far out of the way that you'll have a comparable, usually downright better one from the original Pokedex by the time you find them.
>>736214570GF thought kids don't deserve cool Pokemon like Ttar and Houndoom so they left dogshit like Dunshart and Ledian in Johturd and all the good stuff at the ass end of the game where their underleveled and too late to be useful
>>736215581>Jynx>Farfetchd>Onyx>Hitmanchan>PorygonThe list goes on, gen 1 had a ton of mons in rby that nobody used and sucked balls
>>736214570Dex's weren't meant to regional yet. The idea of their being 'Kanto' and 'Johto' mons wasn't a thing yet. There was simply common pokemon and rare pokemon, and many of the Gen 2 mons were in that second category. This was a time when completing the dex was part of the challenge, hence why so many new pokemon were rare. >SneasalIn Ice Paths in Crystal>LarvitarAlso in Celadon City Gaming Corner in Crystal>Hating on Wooper
>>736214570They wanted the game to feel really expansive, and like an extremely good value, so they stuck the entire previous game into the sequel and made sure you were still finding new Pokemon when you got there, instead of the same ones you were catching just a few months ago in Yellow.But they also wanted you to see the new content early in the game, and pretty evenly spread throughout Johto, too. They only made about a hundred new Pokemon, and most of them only made sense in specific places, or were new evolutions or pre-evolutions of preexisting Pokemon, so they all got spread pretty thinly.They held themselves back by adding Kanto, sure, some players would have said "Oh, that's neat. We get to go back to the places from Red and Blue, but they look better now." But everyone who started with Yellow would just think it was lazy and they were recycling the old game from less than a year ago to pad out the new one..
>>736214939>would it have been so hard to put Houndour somewhere between Azalea Town and Ecruteak City?You WOULD want Morty to become a pushover anon
>>736215758Onyx was good in gen 1 though
>>736214794Sinnoh also had a similar problem, with very little variety, especially with Fire types, and with a lot of the new evolutions being unavailable to the point that both GLs and E4s had to use Pokemon outside of their type specialty until they fixed it in Platinum.
>>736215758Jynx was fucking terrific though
>>736215832No it wasn't.>>736214939Lake of Rage would have been better.
>>736215832>>736215850Wrong and wrong zooms
>>736214704How I fucking wish every game was a sequel to the last one but I guess it'd be too hard to implement without getting tiresome
>>736215880>wrongAnon, Jynx can literally solo the elite four at around level 50.
>>736215880Not a zoomer and Onix was more useful gen 1 than in future gens because there was less counters
>>736215880>Lovely Kiss>STAB Psychic>STAB Gen 1 Blizzard>Rest>Reflect>BadJynx is a solid pokemon offensive and support Pokemon
>>736215581
>>736214704>black sheepExcept Johto is considered the height of Pokemon besides Kanto. You want the black sheep, its crap like gen 5 that killed the franchise.
>>736214604they put pidgey and rattata on every fucking route in johto but couldn’t figure out where to put houndour
>>736215758atleast hitmonchan had sick type coverage
>>736216602>Introduce day-night cycle>Put hondou in exactly one route at night in Kanto instead of literally anywhere in johto to introduce the mechanicGF's decision making process needs to be studied.
>>736215838platinum's dex is pretty good but most of the new encounters over dp don't come till around the third gymalso the retards basically gave a handul of pokemon in the game fly, mons like gliscor and yanmega cant learn it
>>736214570test
>>736215918They are all sequels to previous games. Even Legends Arceus is a sequel to Gen IV. Whichever protagonist you choose gets stuck in the past, which means Arceus can't have taken them from before they defeated Team Galactic. Pokopia is either an alternate timeline, or the very end of the canon one. It might even connect the Mystery Dungeon series to the main games.
>>736216405The term "black sheep" is used to single out something that is different from the norm. It can be used positively, negatively or neutral.
>>736215761Shut up troon
>>736216405gen 5 only "killed the franchise" in the sense that whining gen wunners were mad they couldn't use pikachu and that whining totally informed their design choices after
>>736214570The Kanto irony joke I get.The Hoenn one must be some zoomer thing.
>>736215758you can beat the game with literally anything, comp fags arent a thing
>>736214570Qwilfish and Octillary are not Kanto exclusive tho.
>>736217094>hoennbabbie has gen 1 chads living rent free in his head per usualGen V was pretty well respected for actually forcing a regional dex of completely new pokemon until completing the game. There's a lot of designs that weren't great and it introduced several pokemon that I got absolutely sick of seeing but it was arguably the last decent mainline gen.
>>736215089>not in CrystalKWAB
>>736217094Unovatrannies say this then use Lucario and Ampharos on their BW2 teams.
>>736217676I boxed riolu try again>>736217628having only it's own gen pokemon was one of my favourite parts
Up until Spaceworld 98 they indended the dex to be more of an expansion on the old one, with babies and cross-gen evos. The region was also just entirely new so they put those babies and new pokes throughout with the old ones.Then they were told to re-work it into a smaller but more structured regeon so they could make Kanto a full postgame area rather than just the "last town" and ditch a lot of the babies and evos, leading them to design a bunch of new pokemon with no real guidance on where to put them. In the end they just slapped them into kanto, which seems weird. Should have just kept the new Johto mons in Johto and just had the encounters from RB in Kanto.
>>736214570Quilfish and Octillery are Johto
>>736217751>Headcanon as fact
>>736215152Based Lanturn appreciator.
>>736217676BW was a soft rebootBW2 was a celebration and culmination of all the 2D gamesAbsolutely kino duology with both games offering different experiences
>>736217806Anon we have the Spaceworld 98 demo. That is literally what happened. Baby pokemon were catchable in the wild, along with old pokemon with the new evos.They didn't just rework the entire game in a year for their health.
>>736215581I used Ariados in one playthrough. It was a fairly decent special tank in the early-game.
>>736217873Cool, then it should be easy enough for you to post proof. Thanks.
>>736217751>Then they were told to re-work it into a smaller but more structured regeon so they could make Kanto a full postgame area rather than just the "last town"CRUSHED KANTO
>>736218007Early-game being an important point to highlight
>>736218010I'm not posting what's been there for years anon, look it up.
>>736218619>Prove your claims true>"no!"If you're refusing to do it, you lose here.
I win by not caring
No one ever won an argument by refusing to prove themselves right.
>>736216405>Except Johto is considered the height of Pokemon besides Kantopfffffffftttt in your dreamsEveryone knows it has GoySlopCrap these days
>>736214570because Kanto gets called 'post game' when it's really part 2 of the game.but saying that it would've been nice to show off some more of the new designs before then.
Remoraid and Quilfish are both Johto
>>736219014What Pokemon do you not see before Kanto?>Slugma, Skarmory and Misdrevus3/150 or so isn't bad.
>>736219160Skarmory is on Route 45
>>736214570Complete Wooper hegemony
>>736219217So you only don't see Slugma and Misdreavus before Kanto. That's even better!Actually I don't think you see Lavitar before kanto either.
>>736219160It’s Slugma, Misdreavous, Larvitar, Murkrow, Houndour, and Sneasel iircIt’s basically people crying about dark types
>>736214570They tried to pad out the length of the game by tricking you into using worthless shitmons for 99% of the content, but this ended up having the opposite effect of encouraging everyone to sweep the game with an overleveled started instead.
>>736219160blissey, porygon2, murkrow, misrevus, slugma, houndour, larvitar, sneasel depending on the game
>>736219326>Murkrow, Houndour, and Sneasel iircNo, you see those before Kanto in trainer fights.You can't catch them, but you can see them. That's what I'm figuring out.
>>736219326>SneaselAlso on Ice Paths in Crystal. Why they didn't keep this change in HGSS is beyond me, but at least they made Slugma, Misdreavous, Larvitar and Murkrow accessible earlier (even if most of them are in the Safari zone).
>>736215880Onix was great for catching Zapdos. Immunity to electric and resistance to Drill Peck, along with Wrap to slowly drain HP, made Onix the best option. It was pretty good at catching Moltres as well, even if the fire attacks weren't handled as well.You'd want to use Omastar for an easy Articuno catcher.>>736216740>hitmonchan had sick type coverageGiven the terrible 35 Special before the physical/special split, that didn't mean much. Alakazam could get the element punches with breeding in Gen 2 and used them far better than Hitmonchan ever could.
>>736216405Crystal is the worst selling mainline series game to this day.Johtards don't want to admit they're the ones that killed pokemania and frequently use Gen 3 as a scapegoat.
>>736219350Rocket leader in the Radio Tower had a Houndoom, so you learn about that family from the fight.And your Rival has a Sneasel.The rest are fair.
>>736219392Considering how fucking awfully Sneasel is designed(From a gameplay perspective, it's actual design is fine) I would want to hide that fucking thing as much as possible.
remember when we used to play competitive on IRC and everyone used a skarmbliss stall team? those were the days
>>736215761>Larvitar>Also in Celadon City Gaming Corner in Crystalbest thing they did
>>736219432>Onix was great for catching ZapdosGraveller and Golem would be better. It's easier to catch and has better stats, with the same typing.Onix is outclassed by any and all ground/rock types.
Gen 5 is the best and it’s honestly not even close.I love all the portable Pokémon games up to Gen 7, but something almost no one discusses is that the first 4 have incredibly obtuse progression that will inevitably cripple your drive to continue somewhere between the first and fifth gyms, to the point where SoulSilver is significantly less completable than Platinum despite being released something like one year later. Platinum is the best about it and I was able to get more than halfway through the main game, but I completely ducked after beating Cyrus. White and Black 2 give me none of those problems.
NOOO YOU CANT STILL BE DISCOVERING NEW POKEMON WHILE PLAYING THE POST GAME YOU HAVE TO PUT THEM ALL ON ROUTE 1 SO I CAN MAKE EPIC CHALLENGE YOUTUBE VIDEOS NOOO DONT GIVE THEM UNIQUE ENCOUNTER METHODS JUST PUT THEM IN THE GRASS AND LET ME GET THEM ALL WITH NO EFFORT OR THINKING
>>736215964>Not a zoomer and Onix was more useful gen 1 than in future gens because there was less countersOnix is bad because its hits like a wet noodle and has almost no HP. You could not evolve Rhyhorn and Geodude and they'd be better.
What if Johto only had gen 2 mons?
>>736219532>cripple your drive to continue somewhere between the first and fifth gyms>but I completely ducked after beating CyrusYeah, the part of Platinum is weird - you go to the distortion world, do the kino Cyrus fight, fight pokesatan, then you're supposed to go collect the eighth gym badge and pretend like this shit never happened kek. Climax of the story should have happened after you fight Volkner.
>>736219679That image has gen 5 mons in it.
>>736214604Is there any mods that fixes this shit but doesn't fuck with the game too much? I just want Johto but with better mon distribution and level curve but every mod I've seen just wants to be it's own unique thing
>>736219705I play point-and-clicks with walkthroughs all the time, but I’m not playing an RPG from a walkthrough. I spent something like 50 hours just trying to get through the first half of Disco Elysium with a walkthrough, only to get locked out of the encounter with Pigs on a technicality.
>>736216405>Except Johto is considered the height of Pokemon besides Kanto.Fuckin kek
>>736215581Leave Miltank alone! she's a nice lady!
>>736216405The only thing that killed the franchise was war-on-autism faggots like you trying to gatekeep furries from the furry RPG series about monsters voring each other, Dunkey.
>>736219809>Level curveLiterally isn't an issue if you play the intended way. They want you to do everthing as and when yoy get access to it, or you'll fall behind.Usually I just play gen 2 fast, usually level 35 for the E4. When I did everything (get flash, visit every flash spot, get cut, visit every cut spot etc) my levels were much better. I was just shy of being lvl 50 at the league.
>>736219964are you retarded? It's not an issue of being underleved, it's being overleveled in the mid game and then in johto all the way until red
>>736219964Then you get to Kanto and every wild Pokemon is level 5
>>736219475>dark / ice>35 sp.atk>only gets normal moves>too squish to even use fury cutter on psychic typeswhat was the thought behind this thing's use case?
>>736214570add new pokemon without taking away the old pokemonit was a really good choice, I loved it. rubysapphire was a huge disappointment by comparison, since they removed over a hundred pokemon from the game. I hate that it kickstarted that trend of not including all the previous pokemon. I like it better when pokemon is a continually expanding world. Pretending that pokemon that exist don't exist anymore is so fucking stupid. It doesn't make sense in-universe for pokemon to just completely disappear off the face of the earth.
>>736219503>Golem>Rock Slide>Zapdos KO'd and cannot be caught without another full playthru>Onix>far higher DEF means it takes less damage>Bind does minimal damage and slowly drops HP, allowing you to easily catch it at low HP>Bind also stops Zapdos from taking turns, meaning it does even less damage over the whole fightOnix is far better, if the goal isn't to knock off the target.
>>736215089>the GOATit's a sheep you maroon
>>736220101The general logic for Gen 1 and Gen 2 was to give them moves based on their design, give them stats based on their design, and give moves a typing based on the concept. This is how you ended up with things like Feraligator having a high ATK despite its typing being based on SATK. It's a big bipedal alligator. Of course it's going to have a good ATK.Gen 3 built pokemon with a more mechanical design. You saw stuff like Septile having strong SATK and Speed despite "fast grass gecko with razor sharp leaves" not really fitting that idea. The point, of course, was to align the stats with the moves to be more optimal.Then Gen 4 came around, and reshuffled the moves around to make more sense with physical/special rather than strict typing. The Gen 1 and Gen 2 pokemon benefited, such as Feraligator and Sneasel and Tyranitar getting a bunch of STAB physical moves. And it meant that a lot of Gen 3 pokemon, like Sceptile and Manectric, got shafted since they were build for the old physical/special restrictions but their design pushes their moveset into the opposite of what their stats worked towards.
>>736220245>it's a sheep>you maroonBless you, anon.
>>736220396I still say the phys/special split was the best thing to have happened to the series, with abilities being a close second.
>>736220510I'm not saying that it wasn't, and it definitely helped out those Gen 1/2 mons. It did end up screwing over pokemon from Gen 3.
>>736214570>100 new pokemon>people always complain about the shitter bird and ghost you would never actually use in a playthrough because they have NFE-tier statsthat says everything. the only inexcusable one is the Houndour line.
>>736220510I like it overall, but I think there's been way to much in the way of movepool bloating. It's really homogenized the types.
>>736220173Onix has pathetic hp so takes hits worse than Golem and Rhydon. Zapdos' Drill Peck does more damage to Onix than Golem. Also your move example is irrelevant as a Golem could just press Tackle if you really wanted to.
>>736215880>unaware of how OP ice was in gen 1>unaware of how utterly broken psychic was in gen 1only zoomaloom here is you, palaroo
>>736220547Yeah some were a bit unfortunate.
>>7362196793d was a mistake
>>736218695>not spoonfeeding retards is "losing"god you newfags are fucking embarassing
>>736219450pokemania was already dying out by the time GS launched. if anything killed it, it was the Johto Journeys anime spending 40+ episodes accomplishing nothing between each new badge. and every subsequent series of the show followed that pattern.
>>736220916The anime was so slow that I never finished it. What did the GS ball end up doing in the end?
>>736220628Really disagree every type plays radically different
>>736220950nothing. Ash literally puts it in his bag and it's never mentioned again. it was supposed to be a setup for an arc about Celebi but that plot got reworked into the movie 4Ever, but they cut out the GS ball importance so it doesn't appear there either.
>>736221037wtf... they made such a big deal about it too
>>736215758the point is that gen 1 had those mons but also mons everyone used, and gen 2 added more of them but as far as usable mons you mostly go with gen 1 mons yet again
>>736221084yeah, the Johto run of the anime set the precedent for what the pokeani would become. everyone dogs on the Orange Islands for being pure filler but I think it's the best season in the entire series. even if Tracy is a boring third wheel
>>736217351>zoomer thingSo many people missed slugma in gen 2 because its a 5% chance in kanto on route 16,17,18 and is only a 35% chance on 17 during the day.This lead to people thinking slugma was new in gen 3.
>>736221126and the point people have been trying to make is Gen 2 was supposed to be like a definitive rerelease of the series. there was no plans to continue it beyond Gen 2, so you were supposed to see it as a direct replacement for Gen 1 rather than a biannual rerelease in a long-running franchise. it's more like BW2 vs BW1
